House of Representatives
17 November 1948

18th Parliament · 2nd Session



Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. J. J. Clark) took the chair at 10.30 a.m., and read prayers.

page 3062

QUESTION

COMMUNISM.

Mr LANG:
REID, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Has the attention ofthe Prime Minister been directed to the subversive activities of the Junior Cominform known as the World Democratic Federation, of which the Eureka Youth League of Australia is the Australian auxiliary? Is he aware that this organization is supplying couriers for the carriage of Communist plans throughout the world, and was active in fomenting the Malayan revolution? Is he further aware that the international secretary of the organization is an Australian, Bernard Williams? Has Williams an Australian passport, and is he carrying on his international activities by virtue of holding that passport? Will the Government consider revoking passports which are being used as a cover-up for Communist international intrigue, or is solely concerned with revoking the passports of girls employed by a friendly nation?

Mr CHIFLEY:
Prime Minister · MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I have some knowledge of press reports about a Junior Cominform, and, of course, mention has been made in this chamber of the Eureka Youth League, which is alleged to be an auxiliary of the Communist party. 1 do not know what foundation the honorable member has for his statements. Some of them may be as baseless as were many other charges that have been made in this House. If there are in this country certain individuals who are engaged in subversive activities to the detriment of peace, order and good government, action will be taken against them no matter to what organization they may belong. I thought that the honorable member for Reid and members of the Opposition had been sickened by repeated references to the “ Manila girls because the further they delve into that matter the more they find themselves “ in the soup “. A full statement has been made by the representative in this country of the Government of the United States of America although, admittedly, some sections of the Australian pres3 took the trouble to omit to publish certain relevant portions of it. Anybody who has some knowledge of the immigration laws of the United States of America will know exactly the position with which a person seeking to enter that country is confronted. The Americans, of course, are entitled to pass whatever immigration laws they consider are necessary. I do not know whether inquiries can be made about happenings in Malaya because, as I have already stated, the position there is most confused. I have taken the trouble to obtain first-hand information about Malaya from the British High Commissioner, Mr. Malcolm MacDonald, with whom I have discussed the difficulties that have arisen in that country, and their cause. I shall have an examination made of the matters that have been raised by the honorable member.

page 3063

QUESTION

SUPERANNUATION

Mr RYAN:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA

– I desire to ask the Treasurer a question. By a recent amendment of the law, pensions of service personnel were materially increased, as were the contributions which they were required to make. As a result, senior officers are to-day paying from £200 to as much as £400 a year in contributions, whilst the statutory income tax exemption in respect of superannuation payments remains at £100, so that a very heavy burden has been placed upon them..

Will the Treasurer look into the matter with a view to raising the statutory exemption ?

Mr CHIFLEY:
ALP

– I assume the honorable member refers to the fact that the tax exemption in respect of contributions for superannuation and retiring allowances has been fixed at £100 for employers and employees.

Mr Ryan:

– J am concerned particularly with the position of members of thu armed services.

Mr CHIFLEY:

– I discussed this matter at some length when the Parliament was considering a bill to amend the Income Tax Assessment Act. Certain big companies proposed to establish superannuation funds for the payment of retiring allowances to their chief executive officers, and to pay very large amounts of money into those funds, but no provision was made to extend superannuation benefits to rank and file employees. Certain other companies had for a number of years been operating superannuation schemes covering all members of their staffs. The matter was brought to a head when a company proposed to establish a scheme providing for the payment of huge retiring allowances to seven or ten of its principal executives. It was decided to give discretionary power to the Commissioner of Taxation to deal with such situations without interfering with superannuation schemes which were already in operation, and which provided cover for all employees. Representations have been made to me previously similar to these which the honorable member has just made, that the exemption of £100 in respect of superannuation contributions should be increased in view of changed circumstances. I cannot make any promises, but T shall look into the matter.

page 3063

QUESTION

TOWELLING

Mr HADLEY:
LILLEY, QUEENSLAND

– In directing a question to the Minister representing the Minister for Supply and Development, I point out that the people of Brisbane are very concerned about the acute shortage of towelling. During the war, it was almost impossible to buy towels and, strangely enough, since the war ended the position has become even worse than it then was. Is the Minister aware chat there is an acute shortage of towels and towelling in Brisbane? Does he know that, a little while ago, a promise was given that towels would be made available before Christmas? Will he take action, if possible, to ensure that the people of Brisbane will be given” immediate relief in this matter?

Mr DEDMAN:
Minister for Defence · CORIO, VICTORIA · ALP

– I had not previously heard that there was a shortage of towels and towelling in Brisbane. I understand that neither the Department of Supply and Development nor any other Commonwealth department controls the distribution of such materials. However, I shall direct the attention of the Minister for Supply and Development to the position, and if anything can be done by the Government I am sure that it will be done.

page 3064

QUESTION

LIFE INSURANCE ACT 1945

Mr ABBOTT:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Can the Treasurer state whether the court action to test the validity of the Life Insurance Act, No. 2S of 1945, between Associated Dominions Assurance Society Proprietary Limited and the Government’s nominal defendant, Walter Crowther Balmford, has been set down or will be set down for hearing at the High Court sittings commencing in Sydney on the 23rd November next? If the case has not been set down for hearing, will the right honorable gentleman instruct the Solicitor-General to apply to the court to have the case heard during the present sittings or, alternatively, if the plaintiff is unwilling to proceed, to have it struck off the list? Pending the hearing of the case, or the striking of it from the list, will the right honorable gentleman seek an injunction restraining the directors and officers of the company from dealing with any of the assets, documents or books of the company pending the conclusion of the action?

Mr CHIFLEY:
ALP

– It would hardly be fair for me to make any comment on a case that is the subject of court proceedings. I know the full history of the matter and also the details associated with the action taken by the Commonwealth from the time when the investigation was first ordered by the Common.wealth Actuary, Mr. Balmford, and later the refusal of the company to permit such investigations being made. I think that the honorable member will realize that I could not give him a proper reply to the latter portion of the question without having consulted the Acting Attorney-General, which I shall arrange to do.

page 3064

QUESTION

BROADCASTING

Mr SHEEHAN:
COOK, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Will the Minister representing the Postmaster-General say whether it is a fact that the annual convention of the Australian Federation of Commercial Broadcasting Stations, held in Hobart last week, decided not to oppose the Broadcasting Bill at present before this House and contented itself with making suggestions for some minor amendments to the legislation? Did that convention exclude the press from its deliberations, although certain of its member stations are press-owned or press-controlled? Have the newspapers and the Liberal party attacked the federation for not opposing the Broadcasting Bill?

Mr CALWELL:
Minister for Immigration · MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP

– The president of the Australian Federation of Commercial Broadcasting Stations wrote to the Prime Minister, who showed me the letter, in which appeared the statement that the federation would appoint a standing committee to co-operate with the Government when the legislation had been passed. The federation asked for some minor amendments to be made to the bill. In the course of the letter it was stated that prior to the war the federation had asked that a board be set up. The federation did not agree with the wide powers being given to the hoard under the bill, but it agreed with the principle of setting one up.

Mr Spender:

– Since when has the federation determined public policy?

Mr CALWELL:

-I do not know if it ‘ determines any policy at all, but it expresses its views. I am replying to the honorable member for Cook and I know that the honorable gentleman who has just interjected will misrepresent the position of the commercial broadcasting stations at some later opportunity. Regarding the other points raised by the honorable member for Cook I understand that, for reasons best known to it, the federation excluded the press from the convention. Honorable members can form their own conclusions as to why that action was taken. Concerning the attitude of the Liberal party and the newspapers I understand that an effort has been made to whip up opposition to the broadcasting legislation on the ground that it provides for the nationalization of broadcasting. The press has attacked the federation for not putting itself on record as being opposed to the legislation.

page 3065

QUESTION

COMPULSORY ACQUISITION OF PROPERTY

Dame ENID LYONS:
DARWIN, TASMANIA

– I address a question to the Minister for the Interior. £ have received a letter from a man whose property was acquired almost two years ago and in respect of which no cash settlement has yet been made. He has asked me whether he is entitled to collect interest on the amount outstanding, because in the meantime he has had to raise a bank overdraft, which he would not otherwise have had to raise. Is there legal provision for the payment of interest in cases of that kind? If not, will the Minister inquire into the matter, with a. view to providing means for covering the cases of people who have to wait for long periods between the date of acquisition and the effecting of a settlement?

Mr JOHNSON:
Minister for the Interior · KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP

– In the absence of details of the specific case, it is difficult for me to give a definite answer to the honorable member. The Government is not always responsible for the delays that occur in payment of compensation for property compulsorily acquired. Frequently, when the Government has received valuations, the persons concerned have refused offers of a settlement and some of them have even neglected to acknowledge the receipt of the offers. The act provides for the payment of interest on outstanding moneys, but there again, the circumstances of each case are the governing factor. I am most anxious to effect a settlement in the case to which the honorable member has referred, and if she will sup-ply the details to me I shall investigate the matter immediately.

page 3065

QUESTION

PETROL

Retailers’ Licences -fob EXSERVICEMEN - Attendance at Military Parades - Auxiliary Power Plants - Use by Commonwealth Cars.

Mr FALSTEIN:
WATSON, NEW SOUTH WALES

– At present, the Liquid Fuel Control Board is issuing licences to ex-servicemen to retail petrol and oil, but the oil companies are operating on a quota that is limited by dollar restrictions. Having regard to the opposition from’ existing resellers, will the Minister representing the Minister for Shipping and Fuel convene a conference between the oil companies, the Service Stations Association .of New South Wales Limited, as the representative of the existing resellers and the Returned Servicemen’s Association, with a view to overcoming the difficulties which are now obstructing men, who have been duly authorized to conduct such businesses, from earning their livelihood?

Mr DEDMAN:
ALP

– I shall direct the attention of the Minister for Shipping and Fuel to the suggestions which the honorable member has made, and I am sure that he will give to them his earnest consideration. I shall ask him to furnish a reply as soon as possible.

Mr RANKIN:
BENDIGO, VICTORIA

– Some time ago I asked the Minister for the Army whether he would consider making a special allowance of petrol to men living in country areas who join the Citizen Military Forces. Has he considered the matter and, if so, what is the policy of the Army on it?

Mr CHAMBERS:
Minister for the Army · ADELAIDE, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

– I promised to convey the honorable gentleman’s request to the Minister for Shipping and Fuel and I did so. On Friday I received a reply from him stating that he had approved of a special issue of petrol to members of the Citizen Military Force? living in country areas who had no form of transport other than their own motor vehicles. The Government considers that it would be unfair to require volunteers to use their own private supplies of petrol to attend parades. Details of the system under which the Government’s decision will be carried into effect are now being worked out.

Mr BEALE:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES

– A constituent has written to me stating that he has been unable to obtain permission to purchase liquid fuel to operate an auxiliary power plant, which he purchased recently at the suggestion of the authorities, in order to keep his factory operating: when supplies of electric current were not available because of industrial disturbances. Can the Treasurer say whether the Government has any policy concerning the supply of liquid fuel to factory proprietors who have installed auxiliary plants? I point out that they have gone to considerable expense and difficulty to purchase and install auxiliary plants in order that their factories may continue to operate at maximum production with full staffs during times of emergency.

Mr CHIFLEY:
ALP

– The matter raised by the honorable member was brought to my notice recently, and was the subject of special discussion during the recent coal strike in New South Wales. In particular, Sir Richard Butler, who is chairman of the Liquid Fuel Control Board in South Australia, mentioned the matter to me because of the considerable difficulties experienced from time to time in South Australia owing to the shortage of coal. The Minister for Shipping and Fuel, the Director of Rationing, Mr. Gumming, who administers the distribution of liquid fuel in addition to his other duties, and I investigated the matter fully, and as the result of our investigations we were convinced that the supply of liquid fuel to auxiliary plants throughout Australia during industrial disturbances which affect the supply of electrical power for prolonged periods would impose such a heavy drain on the country’s limited stocks of fuel oil that they would soon become depleted. I point out that that decision was made during the recent coal strike in New South Wales, and at the time we did not know how long the strike would last. It was decided to issue permits for the purchase of liquid fuel only to the proprietors of. auxiliary plants which were used to maintain essential services and not for auxiliaryplants used for factory production. Our investigations revealed that manufacturers who had purchased auxiliary power plants would obtain an unfair advantage over their competitors who had not installed such plants. Of course,I admit that those factory owners who have installed auxiliary power plants have displayed foresight, but undoubtedly many other factory owners have endeavoured to do so but have been unable to obtain the necessary machinery.I emphasize that the recent decision not to issue liquid fuel permits for auxiliary powerplants not utilized in essential services was made after consultation with all the authorities, and I see no reason to alter it.

Mr GULLETT:
HENTY, VICTORIA

– My question to the Prime Minister, which concerns the application of fuel and petrol rationing to the Commonwealth, is prompted by the large number of Commonwealth cars that are to be seen on the roads, particularly in Melbourne. Many of them carry only one passenger. I direct the attention of the right honorable gentleman to the statement made in evidence before the Industrial Board of the Australian Capital Territory that drivers of Commonwealth cars are frequently forced by Ministers to travel to Sydney at 80 or 85 miles an hour. In view of the fact that petrol rationing no longer has the general support of the Australian people and that many people suffer great h ard ship owing to the inadequacy of their petrol allowances, I ask the Prime Minister whether the Commonwealth can set an example by reducing its consumption of petrol during the next twelve months.

Mr CHIFLEY:

– The use of petrol by the Australian Government and its instrumentalities has been the subject of close examination by the Minister for Shipping and Fuel, the Minister for the Interior and myself. It was found that in some instances Commonwealth cars could have been used more economically. A special departmental committee was established and the chairman of the Public Service Board was asked to detail inspectors, wherever possible, to examine whether Commonwealth cars were being used as economically as possible and when other forms of transport such as rail or air were available. The reports of those inspectors are now coming in. The Minister for the Interior and I are taking up each case in which there is evidence that there has been excessive use of a Commonwealth car and, consequently, an unnecessary consumption of petrol. As I have said, I am taking a personal interest in this matter and have asked the chairman of the Public Service Board to arrange for his inspectors in each State to ensure that the use oi petrol by Commonwealth cars shall be closely watched. I was informed cf the statement that is alleged to have been made by the driver of a Commonwealth car that some Ministers expect drivers to travel at 80 miles an hour. I do not believe that there is any truth in that statement. Only ohe or two Ministers travel by ear to Sydney. One of them is the Vice-President of the Executive Council, who has not exhibited any evidence of leading a fast life. I know that other Ministers had intimated to the drivers of their cars before the present petrol shortage occurred that they did not desire the cars to be driven at high speeds. In the past, perhaps, owing to some emergency such as sickness, members of other governments instructed their drivers, if the drivers are to be believed, to travel at high speeds to certain places. I assure the honorable gentleman that the use of Commonwealth cars is being very closely investigated at the present times.

page 3067

QUESTION

VICTORIAN ESSENTIAL SERVICES

Mr ANTHONY:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I ask the Prime Minister to inform the House of the degree, if any, to which the Australian Government will assist the Government of Victoria to maintain essential services in that State. Does the right honorable gentleman consider that the requirement in the Essential Services Act that all the workers concerned shall have an opportunity to vote at a secret ballot before a strike is declared in an essential industry, is oppressive, anti-Labour legislation or is otherwise undemocratic? If he does not, will he assure the Victorian Government and the law-abiding citizens of that State that the Australian Government will assist them by every means within its power to maintain essential services 1

Mr CHIFLEY:
ALP

– According to press reports, the Government of Victoria has proclaimed the Essential Services Act.

Last night, I discussed the situation with the Acting Attorney-General, who wilt examine the legal position, including the effect of that, act, particularly upon unions operating under federal awards. Until that examination has been made, 1 do not propose to comment on the situation, but I shall supply to the honorable member a written answer to his question.

page 3067

QUESTION

SOIL EROSION

Mr WATKINS:
NEWCASTLE, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Following correspondence with the Prime Minister from the Premier of New South Wales, the Mayor of Greater Newcastle and myself, I requested the right honorable gentleman some time ago to assist the local authority to arrest soil erosion at Stockton North which was claimed to be due to the use of that area by the armed forces during the war. I now ask the right honorable gentleman whether the Government has given consideration to that request, and if so, with what result?

Mr CHIFLEY:
ALP

– It was claimed that erosion in the area to which the honorable mem her has referred had resulted from the use of the. area by the defence forces during the war when the land was reserved for military purposes by the Australian Government. I examined the matter closely when it was first raised about two years ago and came to the conclusion that the damage caused was not attributable to military occupation or use of the area. Subsequently, the honorable member for Newcastle, and later, the Premier of New South Wales, Mr. McGirr, spoke to me personally about the matter. I understand that the honorable member inspected the area with Mr. McGirr and local parliamentary representatives. Following their representations it was decided to re-examine the whole matter. That review has not yet been concluded. As soon as a decision has been reached I shall let the honorable member know whether any justification exists for the Government to alter its previous decision on the matter.

page 3067

QUESTION

PROPOSED ECONOMIC UNION

Mr FRANCIS:
MORETON, QUEENSLAND

– It is reported in this morning’s press that Mr. James Dillon, Minister for Agriculture in Northern Ireland, who is attending the Fourth

Annual Conference of the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization at Washington, yesterday proposed an economic union of the United States of America, Great Britain., Ireland, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. I ask the Prime Minister whether any representations have been made to the Government with respect to that proposal? Does the right honorable gentleman agree with Mr. Dillon’s contention that such a plan would end’ wars and ensure world peace and prosperity? Who is the Australian representative attending the conference at Washington, and what is the attitude of the Government towards this proposal?

Mr CHIFLEY:
ALP

– I have not seen the report to which the honorable member has referred. Mr. Dillon is Minister for Agriculture in Eire. However, certain proposals in relation to the matter have been discussed. Australia is represented at the conference now being held at Washington by Dr. Crawford. We have not yet received particulars of any proposal. When we have, I shall convey to the honorable member any comment that I may be able to make upon the matter.

page 3068

QUESTION

WAR GRATUITY

Mr DUTHIE:
WILMOT, TASMANIA

– In view of the fact that within two years approximately £70,000,000 is due to be paid out in war gratuity to ex-service personnel and because of the reported anxiety of the Government that the release of such a large volume of purchasing power may give a boost to inflation, will the Prime Minister consider reviewing the War Gratuity Act in order to provide for the immediate payment of gratuity to larger numbers, and thus spread the disbursement of the total sum of £70,000,000 over the period of two years?

Mr CHIFLEY:
ALP

– The matter of the war gratuity was considered by a special committee consisting of honorable members who had had war service. The Government is grateful for the advice given by the late- Senator Collett, who had experience as Minister for Repatriation in a previous government. It is also appreciative of the services rendered by the other members of the committee. It is not proposed to ‘change the procedure adopted on the advice of that committee for the payment of the war gratuity. If further changes are contemplated, the committee will be asked to meet again to consider them.. With reference to the honorable gentleman’s point about the inflationary effect of the payment of a large sum of money to ex-servicemen as war gratuity in a couple of years’ time, the committee made certain recommendations, which have been adopted by the Government, for the payment of the gratuity earlier to ex-servicemen requiring the money for the building or purchase of a home and for re-establishment purposes when a re-establishment loan has been obtained. I see no reason for extending the purposes for which earlier payment of the gratuity may be made. It is true that the payment to ex-servicemen of such a large sum of money at the time proposed may create a problem if inflationary forces are still at work. That problem will have to be faced if and when it arises. Inflationary forces are at work now, so I do not think that the adoption of the honorable gentleman’s suggestion that earlier payment of the gratuity be made would have the result that he wishes to achieve. At this stage the Government does not propose to give the matter of earlier payment of the gratuity further consideration.

page 3068

QUESTION

MISSING SERVICEMEN

Mrs BLACKBURN:
BOURKE, VICTORIA

– In view of the number of questions asked of me and for the satisfaction of the persons interested, I ask the Prime Minister whether the Government has made a comprehensive search of all the areas in which Australian sailors, soldiers and airmen served during the war in an attempt to obtain all possible information about missing servicemen. If such a search has been undertaken, has it. been completed, or is any further search possible?

Mr CHIFLEY:
ALP

– The search for missing servicemen has gone on continuously. It has been conducted by the three services arid special organizations that were created for the purpose. The honorable member may rest assured that every effort is being made to locate areas in which missing servicemen may have been buried in order to make whatever proper provision may be necessary for re-burial and the care of the graves. I shall prepare for the information of the honorable member a short statement explaining the steps that have been taken and the procedure that has been followed.

page 3069

QUESTION

OFFICE OF EDUCATION

Mr FADDEN:
DARLING DOWNS, QUEENSLAND

– Concerning Discus sion Poster No. 21 issued by the Commonwealth Office of Education in connexion with the budget, can the Treasurer say: (1) ‘Whether the Commonwealth Office of Education was right when it credited him with having balanced the budget, whereas the budget for the last financial year was not balanced? (2) Whether the amount of £29,000,000, which according to the budget, constituted the anticipated deficit which would have to be financed from loan money, has been completely disregarded by the compilers of the poster, with the result that, according to the poster, estimated amounts of revenue and expenditure for 1948-49 balance exactly? (3) As a distorted picture of Commonwealth finance is thus presented, whether the Treasurer will have the poster amended so that it will agree with the budget for 1948-49, as presented “by the right honorable gentleman to the Parliament and to the country ?

Mr CHIFLEY:
ALP

– Although I have read the document to which the Leader of the Australian Country party has referred, I shall make a further examination of it. Yesterday afternoon I again read a statement that the right honorable gentleman had made in this House relating to budgets and associated matters, and found that there were grave discrepancies between some portions of the right honorable gentleman’s statement and actualities. In view of that perhaps I may be pardoned if I view with some suspicion the statement that he has made to-day. I shall carefully examine the matter and prepare a statement for him.

page 3069

COUNCIL FOR SCIENTIFIC AND INDUSTRIAL RESEARCH

Annual Report

Mr DEDMAN:
Minister for Defence, Minister for Post-war Recon struction and Minister in charge of the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research · Corio · ALP

– I lay on the table the following paper : -

Science and Industry Research Act -

Twenty-second Annual Report of Council. for year 1947-48 - and move -

That the paper be printed.

Debate (on motion by Mr. Anthony) adjourned.

page 3069

QUESTION

COMMONWEALTH BANK

Hobartpremises

Mr FALKINDER:
FRANKLIN, TASMANIA

– Is the Minister for Works and Housing aware that the building of new premises for the Commonwealth Bank in Hobart is about to be commenced? In view of the acute shortage of material and man-power for home-building in Tasmania, and the inadequacy of the existing premises of the Commonwealth Bank in Hobart, does the Minister consider that the construction of the new building is warranted at present? Is the cement to be used in connexion with the construction of the new building to be imported from the United Kingdom? If so. why is not preference to be given to cement produced in Tasmania?

Mr LEMMON:
Minister for Works and Housing · FORREST, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP

– As the Commonwealth Bank is an entirely independent trading concern, it enjoys the right to carry out any building construction of this nature without prior reference to me. as Minister for Works and Housing. With regard to the matter of cement. I point out that the qualityof the cement produced in Tasmania is equal to that of British cement, which costs about twice as much to land, either in Tasmania or in any other part of Australia. If cement imported from the United Kingdom is to be used in the construction of the new building, probably the Commonwealth Bank authorities desire not to draw on the available supplies of Tasmanian cement. I shall ascertain the facts and communicate them to the honorable member as soon as possible.

page 3069

QUESTION

CIVIL AVIATION

Mr WHITE:
BALACLAVA, VICTORIA

– I direct the attention of the Minister for Civil Aviation to 1 1 russ reports which state that the Government of New South Wales has been discussing the running of intra-state airlines, jointly owned and controlled by New South Wales and the Commonwealth, lias the Minister any statement to make on that matter, especially in regard to the financial aspect and the losses that may be incurred?

Mr CHIFLEY:
ALP

– I can supply as much information on this question as it is possible to give. Approximately twelve months ago Mr. McGirr, the Premier of New South Wales, spoke to me regarding the desire of the New South Wales Government to control air lines in that State, in view of their competition with the State railways, and to co-ordinate rail and air services. The State Government, having provided special trains to run at fast speeds to Newcastle and other important centres, considered that air competition with such services should not be permitted. I pointed out to the Premier then that, however good trains might be, it would not be possible to prevent, except perhaps temporarily, the increasing use of air services for the conveyance of passengers, particularly in outback districts where trains are required to stop frequently at small intermediate stations. Having had some experience of railways, 1 was able to point out that because of the necessity for stopping at every siding, even a limited express travelling on a country service would not be able to reach the speeds required by people these days. The Premier and I discussed the possibility of making an agreement between the two Governments, and perhaps one of the airline operators in New South Wales for the conduct of air services within the State. Negotiations have proceeded in various forms for some time. I understand that one of the leading airline operators in New South Wales is in financial difficulties. That is not the fault of the company, which is a splendid organization, but is due to the fact that a source from which the company earned money had dried up. Approaches were made to this Government and to the State Government with the object of concluding a joint arrangement. The scheme has developed recently and the Acting Premier and the Minister for Transport in New South Wales have been in consultation with me, and, more recently, theMinister for Civil Aviation. All that 1 can say to the honorable member for Balaclava at present is that the making of an arrangement between the Commonwealth and the Statefor the control of air services within. New South Wales is under consideration..

page 3070

QUESTION

RAIL TRANSPORT

Mr ABBOTT:

– Has the Minister acting for the Minster for Transport read: a press report that was cabled from Paris last week regarding the testing of a train that had travelled on rubber tyres from Paris to Strasbourg, a distance of over 300 miles, at an average speed of 75 miles an hour. Will the Government obtain a report of the test from the French Government? In view of the fact that the Michelin Tyre Company of France has been experimenting for many years with the use of pneumatic tyres on railway vehicles, will the Minister ascertain whether the press report of the performance of the test train is correct ? If it is correct, will he endeavour to obtain two sets of bogies with rubber tyres and have trials made in Australia ?

Mr CHIFLEY:
ALP

– I have studied this matter and so has the Minister for Air, who also had some association with railways in days gone by. I know that, the use of rubber tyres on railways has been under consideration for some years. In fact, rubber tyres have been used with success on relatively light vehicles, such as street cars. Elimination of noise has been one of the most noticeable results of the experiments. One of the great difficulties in the way of adopting rubber tyres for general use on rail vehicles is that the tyres developed up to date are suitable only for lightly loaded passenger trains, and, perhaps, vehicles made of lighter material than the heavy, steel used in existing rolling stock. I shall endeavour to obtain a report for th<! information of the honorable member.

page 3070

JUDGES’ PENSIONS BILL 1948

Motion (by Mr. Holloway) agreed to-

That leave be given to bring in a bill for an act to make “provision for pensions for judges of courts established under the laws oi the Commonwealth and to make provision foi the families of such judges, and for other purposes.

Bill presented, and read a first time.

Second Reading

Mr HOLLOWAY:
Minister for Labour and National Service · Melbourne PortsMinister for Labour and National Service · ALP

-by leave - I move -

That the bill be now read a second time.

The initial provision of retiring pensions for judges of Commonwealth courts was made in the Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration Act in 1926 in respect of judges of the Arbitration Court. This was followed by a similar provision in the Judiciary Act of the same year to grant pensions to justices of the High Court. In 1930, a pension on similar terms was provided for the judge of the Bankruptcy Court, and in 1945 for the judge of the Supreme Court of the Australian Capital Territory. The most recent legislation to provide such pensions was passed in 1947 and covered judges of the Federal Court of Claims to be appointed under the Banking Act. It is not proposed to disturb the present rights of pension of sitting justices or judges except with their concurrence. Under identical provisions in each of the acts mentioned, Commonwealth judges do not contribute towards retirement pensions, such pensions being provided entirely by the Commonwealth. No retiring age is imposed. Upon retirement after not less than fifteen years’ service, a judge receives a pension at a rate equal to 50 per centum of his salary. If his retirement is due to permanent ill health or infirmity after not less than five years’ service, the pension paid to him is equal to 20 per centum of his salary, plus 3 per centum of salary for each additional year of service in excess of five years, with a maximum of 50 per centum of his salary. Therefore a judge on a. salary of £4,000 per annum could, after 15 years’ service, and irrespective of age, retire on a pension of £2,000 per annum. If his retirement had been caused by permanent disability or infirmity, he would receive a pension of £S00 per annum after five years’ service, increasing by £120 per annum for each additional year of ser vice up to a maximum of £2,000 per annum.

Preservation of the independence and high status of a judge as a member of one of the courts of the Commonwealth warrants a pension provision which is complete and adequate. No pension scheme contains these essentials unless it provides for widows and children. The present scheme, although noncontributory and sufficient for the care of an exjudge during his lifetime, not only fails to provide these essentials but also makes no provision for a judge whose ill health may enforce retirement during his first five years of service. The absence of a provision for dependants, coupled with the lack of a fixed retiring age, may well constitute an incentive to a judge to remain in service as long as is physically possible and beyond what might be regarded as a reasonable retiring age. It is proposed, therefore, to extend the pension scheme to provide these benefits. Towards meeting the cost, however, the age pension will be payable only on retirement after attaining the age of 60 years ; the pension payable to a judge will be reduced from 50 to 40 per centum of salary and a proportionate reduction will be made in the pensions of judges retired on account of permanent disability or infirmity.

Under the provisions of this bill, the age pension payable at 60 years of age will be, after ten years’ service, 27^ per centum of salary increasing by 2^ per centum for each additional year of service, subject to a maximum of 40 per centum of salary at the date of retirement. For a judge who retires on account of permanent disability or infirmity, of which the Attorney-General certifies, the minimum pensions will be 15 per centum of salary up to five years’ service, rising by 2-i per centum for each additional year of service with the same maximum of 40 per centum of salary. The widow of a judge who dies in service, or after retirement, will receive a pension equal to half that payable to the judge. An allowance of £1 a week will be provided for each child under 16 years of age. Commonwealth judges are to be given the option either to adopt the provisions of the proposed scheme or to adhere to the pension provisions..of .existing legislation. The new scheme, however, will be applied to all future appointees.

Mr Spender:

– Is that intended to he an inducement to certain members .of the Bench to retire ?

Mr HOLLOWAY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · FLP; ALP from 1936

– The honorable member may raise that point at the committee stage.

Mr Spender:

– I certainly will do so.

Mr HOLLOWAY:

– The pension of an ex-judge will be increased on the basis of the salary now being paid to a holder of the office which the ex-judge held immediately prior to his retirement. In addition, he will be given the option of retaining that increased pension or of adopting the proposed scheme to provide for widows and children. That, in part, answers the honorable member for Warringah (Mr. Spender).

Section 72 of the Constitution provides nhat a judge shall be removable only by an address from both Houses of the Parliament for proved misbehaviour or incapacity. In such an event, no pension will be payable unless the Governor-General otherwise decides.

In submitting this measure to the House, the Government trusts that its implementation will strengthen the independence and status of the justices of Commonwealth Courts, and will contribute towards the maintenance of the efficient discharge of the high and important functions of those courts.

Debate (on motion by Mr. Spender) adjourned.

page 3072

COMMONWEALTH OFFICES, BRISBANE

Report of Publics Works Committee

Mr LEMMON:
Minister for Works and Housing · Forrest · ALP

– I move -

That, in accordance with the provisions of the Commonwealth Public Works Committee Act 1913-1947, it is expedient to carry out the following; proposed work, which was referred to the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Public Works and on which the committee has duly reported to this House the results of its investigations., namely: - Erection of an office building to house Commonwealth departments in Brisbane.

The proposal provides for the extension in two stages of the existing Common wealth offices, to house various Commonwealth departments, Brisbane branches of which are at present inadequately accommodated, some in rented premises, in various parts of the city. The building consists of a basement, ground floor, seven other floors covering the whole area, and a smaller eighth floor containing a kitchen and minor office .accommodation. With the additional space now to be provided, the whole building will have a total floor space of approximately 312,000 square feet. The proposal was fully explained to the House on the 14th April, when I moved that it be referred to the Public Works Committee for investigation and report.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

page 3072

STATES GRANTS TAX REIMBURSEMENT BILL 194S

Assent reported.

page 3072

WOOL REALIZATION (DISTRIBUTION OF PROFITS) BILL 1948

Bill presented by Mr. Pollard, and read a first time.

Second Reading

Mr POLLARD:
Minister for Commerce and Agriculture · Ballarat · ALP

, - by leave - I move -

That the bill be now read a Second time.

This bill provides for the distribution to Australian wool-growers of the profits, if any, that will accrue to the Australian Government from transactions in wool and sheepskins under the war-time arrangements between the Government of the United Kingdom and the Government of the Commonwealth, and from the wool disposals plan which arose out of the wartime transactions in wool. The presentation of the bill does not mean that money is available for an immediate or early distribution to wool-growers. There can be no ascertainment of profits until all stocks held or acquired under the wool disposals plan have been disposed of completely, or until the Australian Government’s responsibilities under the plan in respect of the reserve price for each annual wool clip cease to exist.

The circumstances in which this bill is introduced can best be- explained by abrief reference to the war-time and postwar wool arrangements. In 1939, shortly after the outbreak of war, an arrangement was entered into between the Government of the United Kingdom and the Government of the Commonwealth of Australia, under which the latter Government acquired, and the former Government purchased, all wool produced in Australia, with the exception of that required for home consumption in Australia.- The period of that arrangement was for the duration of the war, and for one full wool year thereafter. The arrangement provided that if wool sold by the Government of the United Kingdom to countries outside the United Kingdom resulted in a profit, such profit would be shared equally between the Government of the United Kingdom and the Government of the Commonwealth. At the time the arrange^ ment was entered into, it was clearly understood that no ascertainment of profits would be possible until all of the wool purchased by the Government of the United Kingdom under the arrangement had been disposed of finally. In September, 1942, the then Prime Minister, the late Mr. John Curtin, replying to a question in this House, stated that the Australian Government’s share pf any profit would be distributed to the wool-growers in proportion to their contributions of wool to the whole scheme during its operation. The war-time arrangement, however, did not continue for the period of the war and for one full wool year thereafter. It actually terminated on the 31st July, 1945, when the wool disposals plan came into operation. This plan was formulated after a conference in London in May, 1945, between representatives of the United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa, who met to discuss at the official and export level the methods to be adopted for the marketing of the accumulated stocks of dominion wool held by the United Kingdom Government, concurrently with oncoming clips. The findings and recommendations of the conference were accepted by the governments concerned, and the details of the disposals plan are set out in the schedule to the Wool Realization Act, No. 49 of 1945. The disposals plan provided, inter aiia- -

  1. that the stock of Australian-grown wool in the ownership of the United Kingdom Government at the- 31st. July, 1945, should be transferred to the joint ownership of the United Kingdom Government and the Commonwealth Government: (fc) that the ultimate balance of profit or loss arising from the transactions of the two Governments in Australian wool would be shared equally between them:
  2. that a joint disposals organization be established for the purpose of buying, holding and selling wool on behalf of the United Kingdom Government and the Dominion governments concerned. This organization i? United Kingdom-Dominion Wool Disposals Limited, a private registered company in th, United Kingdom ; (ti) that a subsidiary be established in each .of the Dominions for the purpose of conducting the operations of the Joint Disposals Organization,, in accordance with its policy and decisions. The Australian subsidiary is the Australian Wool Realization Commission.

The transfer of the accumulated stocks of Australian wool to the joint ownership of the United Kingdom Government and the Government of the Commonwealth meant a very heavy capital commitment for the Government of the Commonwealth. The book cost of the stocks of Australian wool concerned slightly exceeded £100,000,000 sterling and the accrued credit in the Divisible Profits Accounts was approximately £20,000,000 sterling. The balance was thus somewhat more than £80,000,000 sterling, involving a payment of about £40,000,000 sterling by the Australian Government to the Government of the United Kingdom as the purchase price of a half share in the stocks to be jointly owned. These figures, and those which will be stated in my later references to the financial position, are approximate, because the financial statements relating to the transfer from the United Kingdom “Wool Control have not yet been finally audited.

The amount of £20,000,000 sterling ^standing to the credit of the Divisible Profits Account at the time of the transfer was not a profit but merely a credit balance, as there remained -a very large quantity of unsold wool, and the ultimate result depended on the prices which such wool would realize when sold. The merging of the balance of the United Kingdom Divisible Profits Account with the Joint Organization’s Australian Wool Trading Account was simply correct accountancy procedure. Payment by the Australian Government nf its share of the capital cost of i lie stocks was to be spread over a period of four years, with the proviso that its share of the proceeds of current sales of stock wools could be utilized to meet our capital payment obligations. The capital commitments of the Australian Government have been met entirely from t.lie proceeds of sales, and there is a substantial credit in the Australian Wool Trading Account of the Joint Organization. This credit, however, may be affected very greatly if the Governments, pursuant to their obligations under the wool disposal plan to make the reserve price effective, buy-in large quantities of wool from current or future clips that come .within the period of the plan.

The most important new provision of the disposals plan is that which relates to the reserve price. Before the commencement of each wool-selling season, the Joint Organization recommends to the Governments concerned the level of reserve prices at which wool should be sold by the organization, or purchased by it from auction sales, particular attention being given to securing a proper relation of the prices of wool produced in the three dominions. Upon approval by the Governments concerned of the general level of reserve prices, the Joint Organization prepares a schedule of prices based on the general price level, covering the various descriptions and qualities of wool. The Joint Organization’s buyers attend all miction sales, and if any lot of wool sub- mitted for auction is not bid for by commercial buyers, at a price equivalent to or higher than the Joint Organization’s reserve, the lot is taken over by the Joint Organization at the reserve price, subject to the grower’s right of withdrawal.

It will be recognized that so long as the Governments of the United Kingdom and Australia guarantee to buy, at the agreed reserve price, all wool from current clips which is not taken by commercial buyers at the reserve price or higher,, the question of ultimate profit or loss cannot be determined with finality, although an appreciation of the position can be made from time to time. This 1 shall now make.

When the wool disposals plan came into operation at the 31st July, 1945, the accumulated stocks of wool taken over from the United Kingdom Government totalled 10,407,000 bales, of -which 6,796,000 were Australian; 1,777,000 New Zealand; and 1,834,000 South African. At the 30th June, 194S, stocks had declined to a total of 3,218,000 bales, of which 2,271,000 bales were Australian, 801,000 New Zealand, and 146,000 South African.

The stocks at the 30th June, 1948, included woe! bought at auction by the Joint Organization during the season? 1946-47 and 1947-48. In all Dominions the Joint Organization bought in a total of 224,788 bales, of which 87,86* bales were bought at auction in Australia Of this quantity, 5,928 bales have since been sold, leaving a total of Sl,940 bale? of Australian bought-in wool remaining in stock. The accumulated stocks of’ Australian wool taken over at the 31st July, 1945, have been reduced from 6,796,000 bales to 2,271,000 bales. After discharge by the Australian Government of the original capital obligations to which I have referred, the accumulated cash resources of the Joint Organization in respect of the United KingdomAustralia partnership are approaching £30,000,000 Australian currency, and the remaining stocks of Australian wool are costed in the books at somewhat above £30,000,000 Australian currency.

It was originally estimated that the disposal of the accumulated stocks of wool would take ten years or longer. Owing, ! however, to the volume of sales far exceeding the original estimate, it is now probable that the realization period will be considerably less than ten years. This shortening of the period of disposal, and the sale at high prices of a large proportion of the war-time stocks of Australian wool, have naturally focussed the attention of wool-growers on the likelihood of profits being distributed. Recognizing this, the Government, in October, 1947, confirmed the undertaking of the late Right Honorable John Curtin, and made it clear that Australia’s share of any ultimate profit from the disposal plan would he paid to Australian wool-growers in proportion to the appraised value of wool supplied by them during the years in which the appraisement plan operated.

This bill is designed to give effect to the Government’s premise. Its provisions are fairly simple. Before explaining them I repeat that Australia’s share of the final profit cannot be determined as long as the governments underwrite the annual clip by means of the reserve. price. The Government, however, desires that an act be passed which will ensure that Australian wool-growers will receive any profit that is ultimately realized.

The bill is divided into six parts. Part 1. - Preliminary - deals principally with the definitions. The most important of these is the definition of “ Wool Disposals Profit “. During the war, it was agreed between- the United Kingdom and Australian Governments that the war-time arrangement relating to wool and that relating to sheepskins would be taken as one for the purpose of deciding ultimate profits or losses. The sheepskin arrangement was not incorporated in the wool disposals plan, ft has been concluded, and the Australian share of the profit, which is something less than £1,000,000 Australian currency, has been received by the Australian Government. The definition of “Wool Disposals Profit “ makes it clear that the wool disposals plan and the sheepskins scheme are to be regarded as one in the determination of any ultimate profit. The other definitions do not call for specific reference at this stage.

Part LT.., entitled “ Distributable Profits “, sets out the procedure for notification of the amount of the Wool Disposals Profits, and also provides for the method of making progress payments if any such payments are considered to bc justified by circumstances that may arise.

The object of Part ITI. cf the bill i.to set out quite clearly who shall participate in any distribution of profits, and who shall not participate. This part provides that to each supplier of participating wool there shall be paid an amount which bears to the amount to be distributed the same- proportion as the appraised value of the supplier’s wool bears to the total of the appraised value of all participating wool. Wool submitted for appraisement during the year.from 1939-40 to 1945-46 inclusive, and catalogued as non-participating wool in the appraisement catalogues will not participate in any distribution of profits. Non-participating wools include all woo’ derived from sheepskins, manufacturers’ oddments, and other wools, which under the direction of the Central Wool Committee were included in the nonparticipating section of appraisement catalogue?. This part also deals with wool submitted by dealers for appraisement, whether as owners of wool or as agents for the suppliers of wool. Under the National Security (Wool) Regulations of 1939. the buying and selling of wool, except by appraisement, was prohibited. Thos<persons who, prior to the promulgation of the regulations, carried on the business of dealing in Wool by buying direct from growers or other owners, and subsequently selling the wool, were not permitted to continue the purchase of wool, nor were growers permitted to sell wool to ti dealer, lt is, therefore, clear that wool obtained and submitted for appraisement by dealers after the date of the issue of the National Security (Woof) Regulations must, if possible, be related to tinoriginal supplier, and later in the bill certain powers are proposed which will enable the Australian Wool Realization Commission to deal with the matter of wool submitted for appraisement by dealers as agents.

Part III. also provides for the requisite action in respect of bankrupt. estates, deceased estates, defunct companies, companies in liquidation, and dissolved partnerships, and for the proper action to be taken in all cases in which there is doubt as to the proper recipient of the moneys.

Part IV. deals with the method of distribution, and provision is made for the use of the services of the wool-selling brokers, who were approved by the Central Wool Committee under the National Security (Wool) Regulations for the purpose of receiving and submitting wool for appraisement. These brokers will furnish, to the Australian Wool Realization Commission returns setting out the name and address of every person who supplied through them participating wool for appraisement during the years from 1989-40 to 1945-40 inclusive, together with the appraised value of the participating wool supplied by each such person, [n those returns, it will be the responsibility of the wool-selling brokers to indicate quite clearly the persons included in the returns who submitted wool as dealers. It will also be the responsibility of the brokers to indicate in the returns, or to furnish to the commission at any time, all relevant information regarding changes of address, persons deceased, liquidation of companies, dissolved partnerships, &c, and any other information that may affect the ultimate destination of moneys involved in the distribution.

Each wool-selling broker will be re quired, within a time specified by the commission, to send to each person mentioned in the returns a notice, in a form approved by the commission, informing that person that his name has been included in the return, and stating the amounts of the appraised values included in the return in relation to the participating wool supplied for appraisement by that person. The commission is being given powers to take whatever action it considers necessary to verify the correctness or otherwise of the information furnished in the woolselling brokers’ returns; and the commission may amend or alter the returns where it is satisfied that it i3 necessary so to do in order to give effect to the provisions of the proposed act.

The returns will be certified by the company, firm or person making the return as being in accordance with the appraisement records of the company, firm or person. The appraised value totals will be checked by the Australian Wool Realization Commission, and if the particulars are correct, the commission will certify the returns as being in agreement with the appraised value totals contained in the records of the Central Wool Com.mittee and of the commission.

It is proposed that the commission may enter into agreements with wool selling brokers for their appointment as agents for the commission for the purpose of the distribution of moneys under the act, and that they shall be authorized to deduct from each amount paid out by them as agents, a commission at a rate fixed from time to time by the Minister by notice in the Gazette. It is not intended that moneys relating to wool submitted for appraisement by dealers shall be distributed through the wool selling brokers. The bill provides that the commission shall deal with moneys relating to wool submitted through dealers in such a way that the growers of the wool shall have every opportunity to establish their claims to participation in accordance with the appraised value of wool supplied by them.

Part V. of the bill, which deals with the financial .aspects of the distribution, provides for arrangements with the Commonwealth Bank to advance to the commission, on a government guarantee, the moneys required to meet the distribution payments, and empowers the commission, subject to the approval of the Minister, to set aside out of the eventual amount to be distributed such sum as it considers necessary for the purpose of indemnifying the commission in respect of losses which might otherwise be incurred by the commission in the performance of its functions under the act. This part also makes provision in respect of unclaimed moneys and stipulates the ultimate destination of such moneys.

The final Part of the bill is designed to protect the commission against any action or proceedings for recovery of any moneys claimed to be payable to any person under the act, or of damages arising out of anything done by the commission in good faith in its performance under the act. ft alao prohibits absolutely the assignment of any shares in a distribution under the act, or the possibility of such a share, until the distribution has been made. The reason for this provision is to prohibit trafficking by participants or others in any interest pertaining to a distribution of profits under the act. This proposed section also deals with the question of false returns or information, and fixes the penalty for offences and provides for the making of regulations under the act. The Government has framed this bill with the object of ensuring that the whole of the profits accruing to the Commonwealth Government shall be distributed to the suppliers of the wool. With minor exceptions, these were the growers of the wool. In spite of all efforts, however, it is likely that some persons entitled will not be traceable, and that some small part of the wool disposals profit, if any, will remain unexpended. It will be noted that any moneys remaining unpaid at the expiry of the prescribed period will be paid to the credit of the wool industry fund and Will thus he available for the benefit of the wool industry. I commend the bill to the careful consideration of honorable members.

Debate (on motion by Mr. Harbison) adjourned.

page 3077

WHALING BILL 1948

Bill presented by Mr. Pollard, and read a first time.

Second Reading

Mr POLLARD:
Minister for Commerce and Agriculture · Ballarat · ALP

by leave - I move -

That the bil] bc now read a second time.-

The Whaling Act 1935 was introduced to provide for the application of the Convention for the Regulation of Whaling signed at Geneva on the 24th September, 1931. Since that date a number of other international agreements for the regulation of whaling have been drawn up,- and consolidated in the International Convention for the Regulation of Whaling signed in Washington on the 2nd December, 1946. The bill is designed to amend the Whaling Act 1935 to meet the requirement of the convention of 1946. The first suggestions that the hunting of whales should be regulated came before World War I. from an association of natural scientists who wanted to save the whale from extinction, which they expected . at an early date, and various effortswere made to secure co-operation amongst whaling countries to this end.

In September, 1931, a convention for the regulation of whaling was signed at Geneva by the representatives of 26 nations. Russia, Japan, Chile and Argentina did not sign. The convention which became effective in January, 1936, was only a first experiment at an international agreement, but it did demonstrate thefeasibility of international co-operation.

The convention of 1931 lacked a great deal, and it was obvious that a more determined attempt to control the killing of whales was necessary. In 1937, a further international agreement was signed in. London. However, it was pointed out in the final act that; -

Experience may prove that further measure: of conservation are necessary or desirable.

That proved to be so. Further restrictions were imposed at the international conference held in London in June, 1938, and a protocol was signed.

The intervention of World War II. interrupted the work of conservation. It was hoped that with the cessation of whaling operations whale stocks would’ recover, but operations since the war have shown that this has not been so. It must be remembered that the female whale has only one calf each two, or three. years. Thus a rapid recovery of stocks could not be expected. It is considered that Australia should continue to co-operate with other countries in an. effort to conserve natural resources and should take steps to protect the stocks of whales.

The bill amends the 1935 act by revising the list of definitions. Grey whales, are included in the list of protected whales. This action has been taken because this species is now practically extinct. The inclusion of grey whales in the prohibition will in no way affect whaling operations in this country. Provision is made to enable the minimum lengths to be fixed by regulation. The .present lengths are as follows: - Blue whale 70 feet, ‘fin whale 55 feet, sei whale 40 feet, humpback whale 35 feet, and sperm whale 35 feet. As it may he necessary from time to time to reconsider these lengths in the light of further knowledge of the strength of the whale stocks, provision is made to enable the legal minimum lengths to be fixed by regulation. Provision is also made to exempt the dauhval and whales used as fenders from the condition that the whole of the whale must be treated. Dauhval is a dead whale that, is found floating

Hnd since it may have decomposed to a considerable degree it would be unwise to ‘ insist on its complete treatment. Whales used as fenders might also be in a. decomposed and damaged condition, and their treatment in all cases could not he recommended.

The proviso permitting operators to estimate the length of the whales is repealed. All whales must be measured accurately. Provision is made for the reporting of whales which may be lost subsequent to their being killed, and for the more accurate measurement of the length of whales. Under the terms of the Washington Convention the payment of the bonus is not permitted in respect of certain whales. This action is taken so that the catchercrews, particularly the gunners, will not receive any financial advantage from the killing of protected whales. If a bonus were paid on the oil from prohibited whales such as undersized whales, females accompanied by ;a calf or lactating whales, the gunners would continue to kill them and claim that they did so by mistake. On the other hand, with no chance to benefit financially in such instances they will not waste their time with such whales. The bill provides for continuous inspection while whaling operations are in progress. Because a whaling inspector must sleep illegal whales have often been flagged until the factory ship notified the chaser that the inspector had retired and the illegal catch was then taken on board and treated. In such instances, the entry in the ship’s log was made incorrectly to cover up the infringement. With two or three inspectors on duty a continuous watch can be kept.

Debate (on motion by Mr. Harbison) adjourned.

page 3078

TUBERCULOSIS BILL 1948

Second Reading

Debate resumed from the 16th November (vide page 3009), on motion by Mr. Holloway -

That the bill be now read a second time.

Mr RYAN:
Flinders

.- I believe that this measure will be welcomed’ generally by the community. Subject to several important qualifications which 1 shall make later, it is a good bill; but it could be improved. I do not need to emphasize the misery and great economicloss which tuberculosis causes in Australia. Previous speakers have dealt fully with that aspect, which if appreciated throughout the country. However, the decrease in the mortality rate in Australia from, tuberculosis during, the last 50 years is worthy of note. For the quinquennium from 1901 to 1905 the mortality rate was 89 to every 100,000 of the population. For the five years, 1921 to 1925, the rate had dropped to 62 and for the last five years for which records are available. 1936 to 1941, it had dropped to 39 to every 100,000 of the population. The decrease of the mortality rate has been due to a number of factors, including, first, improved hygiene, secondly, the education of the people in respect of nutrition - people now know the proper foods to eat and they are able to obtain more of such foods - and, thirdly, the advance made by the medical profession in the treatment of the disease. However, throughout the last 50 years no allout attack upon tuberculosis such as i? planned now has been made in Australia. As it is clear that this attack will achieve results there is every prospect that within a. reasonable time it will be possible to eradicate the disease or to reduce its incidence to negligible proportions. In Saskatchewan an all-out attack was made upon the disease over a number of years and remarkable results were achieved. The. authorities in that province, acting under legal guidance, arranged for all people within the province to be X-rayed, and authorities adopted the latest treatment, both medical and surgical, in dealing with the disease. The result is that during the last fifteen years the deathrate from tuberculosis in Saskatchewan has been reduced from 90 to every 100,000 of the population to the present mortality rate of 16 to every 100,000 persons, and there is every reason to believe that within a short space of time the disease will be practically eradicated.

The honorable member for Franklin (Mr. .’Falkinder) emphasized the important part which publicity can play in any attack upon a disease of this kind. It is very doubtful whether we can legally compel* everybody in the community to be X-raped. However, I do not believe that it is necessary. In Rochester, United States of America, an all-out publicity campaign was conducted over a short period in order to induce citizens to undergo the necessary medical examination. In that campaign publicity of all forms, including the radio, cinema and the press as well as public lectures were employed. The result was that the great majority of the citizens of Rochester voluntarily presented themselves for medical examination and this resulted in great benefit to the health of the community as a whole. I believe that similar results can be achieved in Australia. The other phase of any attack upon tuberculosis is the treatment of sufferers by the medical profession. At the Mayo Clinic at Rochester thousands nf sufferers from various diseases including tuberculosis are treated. The patient’s complaint is diagnosed and in cases of tuberculosis the patient within a week undergoes a special examination by experts in the treatment of the disease. The doctors decide whether the disease shall be treated medically or medicosurgicallly. If the latter course is followed they decide the particular operation the patient shall undergo. A patient suffering from cavitation, which requires surgical treatment, is given a fourteenday course of streptomycin before the operation for the removal of the affected part of the lung is performed. After the operation, streptomycin is administered for another eight weeks. I am informed by reliable authorities that no relapses have occurred among patients who have undergone that treatment.

Having made those preliminary observations, I turn to the bill itself in order to state the qualifications that I men tioned in my opening remarks when I said that it was a good bill with qualifications. Former members of ‘the Social Security Committee who for years conducted protracted, talks with leaders of the medical profession, and members of the Government who have conducted similar conversations with them since, have heard from the medical profession one request - I might even describe it as a demand - namely, that should a national medical system be established in Australia, the medical profession should be entrusted with its administration. Medical men say that an independent or semi-independent body on the lines of the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research should be created to administer the scheme. The bill makes it plain that that request has been completely disregarded, because it provides that the division of tuberculosis that is to be established shall be directly under the control of the Director-General of Health, who is a public servant and is responsible only to the Minister foi Health. When introducing the bill in the Senate, the Minister for Health (Senator McKenna) said -

The Commonwealth has established a Di, sion of Tuberculosis in the Department of Health and will assist the States with medical and technical advice on the highest level, to co-ordinate their activities and to shape the policy to be followed in all aspects of thicampaign.

It was made perfectly clear that the division of tuberculosis is to be an integral part of the Department of Health and subject to the control of the Director-General of Health and, therefore, subject to the Minister for Health. Soon we shall have placed, before us legislation for the establishment of a national medical service for the whole of Australia. I ask myself whether that legislation will also embody the policy that is contained in this legislation.

Mr ACTING DEPUTY SPEAKER:
Mr. Lazzarini

– Order! The honorable member may not go too far on those lines.

Mr RYAN:

– I realize that. I was making only a passing reference. The promise given to the medical profession by the Minister for Health that any public health scheme would be conducted by the doctors themselves has not been fulfilled. The. provision that the division of tuberculosis shall be an integral part of the Department of Health seems to be a flagrant breach of the undertaking given to the medical profession on behalf of the Government. Clause 8 states - (1.) For the purposes of this Act there shall be an Advisory Council, which shall consist of a Chairman and such other members, not exceeding eleven, as are appointed by the Governor-General. (2.) The Director-General shall be the Chairman of the Council. (4.) The functions of the Council shall be to advise the Minister with respect to -

  1. the measures to be adopted in relation to the prevention, diagnosis and control of tuberculosis;
  2. the provision of standards for equipment and apparatus for use in relation to the prevention, diagnosis, treatment and control of tuberculosis ;
  3. the standard of training of personnel required for the detection of tuberculosis and the treatment and after-care of sufferers from tuberculosis;
  4. the standards of hospitals and sanatoria used in the treatment of tuberculosis;
  5. the after-care of sufferers from tuberculosis; and
  6. any other matters in relation to tuberculosis which are referred to the Council by the Minister or the Director-General. (5.) The Council shall meet at such times and places as are determined by the DirectorGeneral and notified by him to the members.

Sub-clause 5 contains important words. As you, Mr. Acting Deputy Speaker, have said, words mean what they say. Those words mean that the advisory council will have no power of initiative and will be entirely subservient to the DirectorGeneral or the Minister. Having no executive powers, the council will be merely an appendage of the bureaucracy. In 1944, regulations were made by the Executive Council of Victoria under the Ministry of Health Act 1943 for the creation of a Consultative Council on Tuberculosis to advise the Minister for Health in Victoria. Its functions are like those specified for the advisory council to be established under this measure, but it is not limited in its operations as will be the advisory council to be set up under this measure.

Mr Holloway:

– The honorable member did not read the whole of clause 8.

Mr RYAN:

– I read all that was relevant.

Mr Holloway:

– Sub-clause 3 provides that -

In the absence of the Director-General from any meeting of the Council a person nominated by the Director-General shall act as Chairman.

The position will be that Dr. Wunderly will be nominated to act as chairman.

Mr RYAN:

– That is perfectly true, but the honorable gentleman misses my main point, which is that the council shall meet at such times and places as are determined by the Director-General, which means that the council need not meet at all, unless the Director-General wants it to meet, and that the council may deal only withmatters referred to it by the Director-General, who is a paid official of the Government. So, the advisory council will be no more than an integral part of the Public Service. But the Victorian regulations, which are analogous to this measure, empower the consultative council to advise the State Minister for Health as to the most effective method of combating tuberculosis and particularly as to -

  1. The measures and precautions necessary to prevent the incidence and spread of the disease;
  2. Community radiography as a method of detecting the disease and of ascertaining the effect of treatment;
  3. The proper medical, surgical or other methods of treating the disease including the relevant subjects of convalescence, occupational therapy, rehabilitation and provision for depen dants ;
  4. The type and location of necessary in stitutions; and
  5. Any other relevant matter, subject or thing which in the opinion of the Council will be of value in eitherthe prevention or cure of the disease and any steps that shouldbe taken for its ultimate eradication.

The onus is thrown upon the consultative council to make proposals that will help to eradicate the disease. It is left with the initiative. This bill fails miserably in that respect, because it is entirely contrary to everything that the medical profession has asked for and is asking for in respect of the general national medical scheme. The bill should be amended in the direction I have indicated andI understand that when the committee stage is reached the honorable member for Now England (Mr. Abbott) will move accordingly.

An important matter about which nothing is said in the bill is the salary and status to be accorded to the Director of the Division of Tuberculosis in the Department of Health. Subject to the nominal control of the Director-General of Health, the Director of the Division of Tuberculosis will have under his charge the health and welfare of from 30,000 to 40,000 sufferers. Only « handful of tuberculosis specialists in this country possess the necessary experience and professional prestige to justify appointment to the directorate of the division, and usually it is not easy to induce such men to accept , a Government appointment. The five or six specialists to whom I refer earn at least £4,0.00 to £5,000 a year in private practice, and, in addition, they occupy important public positions in hospitals and other institutions. Yet members of the Government, who are aware of those facts, propose to pay to the specialist who will be appointed director of the tuberculosis division, a salary no greater than that paid to a senior public servant in a Commonwealth department.

Mr Holloway:

– - Where does that proposal appeal’ in the bill ?

Mr RYAN:

– It does not appear in the bill, but-

Mr Holloway:

– Then I do not think that the honorable member is entitled to make such a suggestion.

Mr RYAN:

– I am not suggesting it; I. am stating it as a fact. I was about to point out that if we propose to obtain, the services of a competent specialist we must be prepared to pay him an appropriate salary. I have been informed on very good authority that the person whom it is proposed to appoint to the position will be paid a salary of £1,600 per annum, which, after all, is a very poor remuneration. Honorable members will realize the inadequacy of such a salary when, they consider the importance and magnitude of the responsibilities to be assumed by the director of the tuberculosis division.

Whilst I understand that the specialist whom the Government intends to appoint to the position is more concerned to render a service to the community than to obtain for himself an adequate salary, I point out that person.* eligible for appointment to the position in the future may not take the same view. I repeat that we cannot hope to obtain the services of the most able men unless we provide adequate remuneration. Many eminent professional mcn are not prepared to surrender their independence, income and professional and social status without adequate compensation.

Reference has been made to the potentialities of the drug streptomycin, and quite a lot has been heard about it in this House at question time and on other occasions. Although I do not pretend to have a first-hand knowledge of the drug, I recently had the opportunity to discuss it with Sir Sidney Sewell, a Victorian consulting specialist, who has just returned from the United States of America., where he studied the latest, developments in the prevention and treatment of tuberculosis. In the course of his visit he spent some time in the Mayo Clinic, where most of the experiments in the treatment of tuberculosis are conducted. In Australia the manufacture of streptomycin is entrusted to the Commonwealth Serum Laboratories, which produce only small quantities of the drug. As honorable members are aware, the drug is required for use in the treatment of an increasing number of cases, and the present rate of production at the Commonwealth Serum Laboratories is not adequate to our requirements. Incidentally, although the opinion has been expressed in some circles in this country that the earlier reports of the effectiveness of the drug overrate its real value, I understand that subsequent investigations conducted in the United States of America have revealed that the importance attached to the drug earlier is not exaggerated. Some years ago the Mayo Clinic was given the task of investigating the treatment and cure of tuberculosis for the United States Government, and it was requested to investigate, amongst other possible remedies, streptomycin, which was then a new discovery. The research workers at the Mayo Clinic began their investigations by conducting experiments on rats, mice aud various animals, and their initial experiments disclosed that the drug could cure the disease without any deleterious effects on their general health. The drug was then used in the treatment of human patients, the daily dosage administered being five grammes. That was a huge dose, and it was found that it tended to deafen patients and disturb . their balance. Experiments were then conducted with smaller closes, until it was found that the use of less than a certain quantity would have no effect on the tuberculosis bacilli. Ultimately it was discovered that the most effective method of administering the drug was by intravenous injections of half a gramme daily. However, subsequent . experience showed that some patients who had been successfully treated by streptomycin suffered relapses, and in explanation of the relapses the theory was advanced that the tubercles became resistant to the drug. That theory created fear in the minds cf some members of the medical profession that the use of the drug would result in predisposing sufferers to a recurrence of the disease, because the action of the drug appeared, to strengthen the resistance of, rather than to destroy, the tubercles. However, further investigations conducted by the director of pathology at the Mayo Clinic have revealed that the tuberculosis germ is not homogeneous but heterogeneous, and that although the tubercules of, say, 5 per cent, of patients treated by the drug may develop a resistance through its administration the tubercles of the remaining 95 per cent, are not likely to bo strengthened. He is now developing that theory, which he believes to be the correct one. An interesting aspect of the matter is that the majority of tuberculosis germs are of the homogeneous type. Only in about one of 20 to 50 cases are the tuberculosis germs in the human body of the heterogeneous type, and therefore resistant to this drug.

Mr Abbott:

– “Would the heterogeneous type of germs breed rapidly?

Mr RYAN:

– Yes, and they also become very objectionable. However, many sufferers from tuberculosis could be cured by the use of this drug, and therefore it is a valuable aid in the combating of thisscourge. I point out that the prolonged use of the drug does not necessarily increase the resistance of the tubercles. My earnest desire is that the Minister for Health (Senator McKenna) will take steps to ensure that the output of streptomycin shall be increased. Undoubtedly there will be a growing demand for this drug in Australia in the future,, and for that reason the Government, should be in a position to supply whatever quantity may be required. Whilst 1 shall make some further comment on this aspect of the matter during - the committee stage, I emphasize now that I strongly object to the division being an ordinary part of the PublicService. That would be wrong from every sound point of view. I know that the medical profession, as a whole, Ls.averse to that /proposal. I also repeat my request that the Minister should makeevery effort to secure and have available - larger quantities of streptomycin.

Mr CHAMBERS:
Ministerfor the Army · Adelaide · ALP

– I shall not detain the House for very long, but 1 express the hope that the campaign envisaged by this legislation will be commenced at an early date. I compliment the honorable member for Flinders (Mr. Ryan) on his valuable contribution to the debate, and I shall-‘ refer to his remarks relating to the appointment* of a director to administer the Division of Tuberculosis in the Department of Health. J agree with the honorable member’s contention that not many members.of the medical profession in thiscountry could claim to be specialists - in this branch of the medical science. Indeed, the Commonwealth has been most fortunate to secure the services of a specialist in the treatment of tuberculosis. Whilst I do not, at the moment. . know what his remuneration will be, 1 have on many occasions contended that. . if the Commonwealth desires to secure the services of eminent members of the medical profession, the remuneration, offered to them should be reasonably attractive.

Mr Holloway:

– The Government intends that the remuneration of specialists- who enter the service of the Commonwealth shall be adequate.

Mr CHAMBERS:

– I hope that the Minister representing the Minister for Health in this House (Mr. Holloway) will bear in mind the points stressed by the honorable member for Flinders, and will take a personal interest in the matter, to ensure that men who are so patriotic, as to accept Commonwealth appointments in connexion with the proposed campaign against tuberculosis in this country shall be suitably rewarded for their services. There is no gainsaying the fact that in the past the remuneration offered to medical specialists, by the Commonwealth and the States, was far short of what those men could have earned in private practice. I am reminded by the Minister for Labour and National Service (Mr. Holloway) that the specialist whom it is proposed shall be appointed as director of the proposed new division would be able to obtain, in private practice, a much higher income than he can hope to receive from the Commonwealth. The patriotism that he has displayed by accepting the appointment is to be admired. I am sure that that aspect will be borne in mind by the Minister when the matter of the remuneration of the director is being considered.

For many years the lives of many of the younger members of the community in this country have been lost through tuberculosis. That is a national tragedy. When the older people, who have run their race, contract a disease which eventually lays them low, the loss to the community is not so great, because they have made their contribution to the progress of the world. It is most distressing to see -as I have seen - large numbers of young men and women become victims of tuberculosis in the sanatoriums of this country. They have been condemned to death. Even while they still live, these sufferers are treated by many people as outcasts of society. I consider that this matter should be approached on a non-party basis.

Mr Abbott:

– Hear, hear!

Mr CHAMBERS:

– I believe that the Opposition will support this measure, although some of the members opposite may not altogether see eye to eye with Government members regarding certain of its clauses. The time is long overdue when the nation should accept its responsibility to endeavour, by every available means, to stamp out tuberculosis in Australia.

I have seen at first hand the dreadful effects of tuberculosis in both New Guinea and Japan. When one witnesses the conditions that exist in those countries, it is easy to understand why the incidence of tuberculosis there is so high, particularly in Japan. Australia is a land of almost perpetual sunshine, and there is an abundance of food and clothing for its population. Although the number of Australians suffering from tuberculosis is comparatively small, it is still too great for a country which can provide so many of the things capable of protecting its people against this dread disease. There are several reasons for this state of affairs. Tuberculosis is a disease of which the whole of the community is fearful. The education of the people in regard to it has been so scanty that they have come to regard it as being incurable. That is not so, but owing to the absence of a national campaign to eradicate tuberculosis the Australian public does not realize how easy it would be to stamp it out in this country. One of the most important aspects of this problem is the economic one. The experience of the institutions that have been established for the treatment and cure of tuberculosis proves that the patients who are most likely to be completely cured are those who have no mental anxieties. One of the greatest mental anxieties that beset sufferers from tuberculosis to-day is the lack of economic security for themselves and their dependants. This measure will do much to provide that security. 7 did not hear the speech that was made on this bill by the honorable member for Franklin (Mr. Falkinder), nor have I read a report of it, but I understand that the honorable gentleman suggested the initiation of an extensive publicity campaign. Such a campaign was recently undertaken in Sydney, and radiographs were taken free of charge. Although the number of people who applied to have radiographs taken was, in proportion to the total population of the city, small, it was, nevertheless, greater than could be coped with. That shows that the response of the Australian people to an extensive publicity campaign in relation to tuberculosis would be satisfactory. The people must be taught that they need not be afraid to be examined and that, if they are found to be suffering from this disease, they are notunder sentence of death because, if it is treated in time, it can be cured. This measure will ensure that those who notify the health authorities that they are suffering from tuberculosis shall not be sentenced to economic death, because while they are being treated their dependants will be protected financially. The reasonwhy many people who know that they are suffering from tuberculosis do not notify the health authorities of that fact, is that they realize that if they do so they will be put into sanatoriums and that little provision will be made for their dependants. In addition, many people who enter tuberculosis sanatoriums leave before they should do so because of this lack of economic security.

I support this bill. I have seen the mental and physical depression of sufferers from this disease. I believe that if we tackle the problem in the proper manner within a few years Australia will have a cleaner sheet in respect of tuberculosis than that of any other country. I hope that all honorable mem- . bers will support the motion for the second reading of this bill. Although some features of it may be objectionable to some honorable gentlemen, we are now starting upon a national approach to this important problem, and if, as time passes, we find that it is necessary to amend the legislation, that can be done. I ask the House not to delay the passage of this bill. If we can obtain the support of the medical profession and of the Australian people, within a few years Australia will be freer from this disease than any other country will be.

Sitting suspended from12.45 to 2.15 p.m.

Debate interrupted.

page 3084

MR. L. C. HAYLEN, M.P

Newspaper Report of Speech

Mr HAYLEN:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I desire to make a personal explanation.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– Has the honorable member been misrepresented in the House?

Mr HAYLEN:

-I have been misrepresented in a statement which it is important that I should correct. In the Sydney Morning Herald of the 13th November, an otherwise accurate and fair report of a speech which I made in this House on Friday last contained an unfortunate typographical or transmission error in the following paragraph : -

Mr. Haylen said practically every one found hanging around General MacArthur’s head quarters in Japan was a traitor.

The word that I used was “ trader “.I direct the attention of the House to the error in order that my speech shall not be misunderstood. The error may be attributable to the acoustics of the chamber or to the fact that I was concluding my speech in the House when I made the statement. The words are somewhat similar. The report has a. bad import. and I shall he glad to have my explanation recorded.

page 3084

TUBERCULOSIS BILL 1948

Second Reading

Debate resumed.

Mr ABBOTT:
New England

– This bill relates to the provision of medical services in respect of tuberculosis. In common with other members of the Australian Country party, I wholeheartedly support the principle behind the measure. We believe that everything that can be done for the alleviation of human suffering should be done. Some very interesting speeches have been made during this debate, and one of the most impressive of these was made this morning by the honorable member for Flinders (Mr. Ryan). The honorable gentleman revealed that he had made a deep study of tuberculosis, not only in Australia, but also throughout the rest of the world. The information which he disclosed about the latest drugs that are procurable for the treatment of the disease and about methods of treatment in other countries was of special interest to those of us who are not equipped with the knowledge which the honorable gentleman has obtained on the subject. The Government, the Parliament and the people of Australia are particularly fortunate, in having the assistance of the Director of Tuberculosis, Dr. Wunderly, who, I understand, has a very great knowledge of the disease. His reports to the Government and his help in the preparation of the bill have been very valuable. Dr. Wunderly was prepared to sacrifice his private medical practice, and whatever financial returns he might have made from it, in the interests of the people of his country. Had he lived in an earlier age, he might have been described by Carlyle as a “ God-inspired man “, a man who had the inspiration to sacrifice his own interests in order to dedicate his talents to the service of mankind by trying to improve the lives of people who are struck down by this mo3t deadly of all diseases, tuberculosis. It should be placed on record that Dr. Wunderly has made a very great financial contribution to the work of combating tuberculosis, a struggle which, we hope, he is destined to lead in Australia for many years. T believe that he and his wife have contributed approximately £1S,000 to provide scholarships for research in tuberculosis. T understand that the gifts were made anonymously and that their source became known only through an announcement made by one of the medical societies. I recall the verse from the Gospel -

Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works and glorify your Father which is in Heaven.

Dr. Wunderly’s financial contribution, which will enable young men to engage in research work so that they may hand on the lamp of knowledge to generations yet unborn, should not be concealed from the public. It should be known not only in order that we may pay tribute to his generosity, but also that it may be an example to other men who may be influenced by it to make similar or larger sums available for the great work that is waiting to be done.

Tuberculosis has been a scourge of humanity for centuries. In studying this subject I read the writings of that famous doctor, Sir William Osier. His book, A System of Medicine, written in collaboration with Doctor McCrae, was published in 1908, and contains historical, facts in relation to the diseaseSir William Osier pointed out that tuberculosis had existed since very remote times and that it transcended all maladies in the total number of its victims. That statement is as accurate to-day as it was when it was written, with the exception that, although the effects of tuberculosis still outstrip those of other diseases, it is steadily losing its pre-eminent lead. The figures quoted by the honorable member for Flinders, and others which I shall quote later, show that the disease is gradually being conquered. Cuneiform inscriptions of Babylonian times show that the disease existed even then. The incidence of tuberculosis in Australia is high. The second-reading speech of the Minister for Labour and National Service (Mr. Holloway) informed us that there are between 30,000 and 40,000 tubercular citizens in the Commonwealth. The Commonwealth TearBook for 1944-45, the latest issue available, shows that tuberculosis was responsible for 560 of every 10,000 deaths that occurred from all diseases in Australia in 1931. In 1941, the figure had been reduced to 384 of every 10,000 deaths, and in 1944 it had been reduced further to 343. The pleasing feature, if there can be any pleasant feature in relation to the disease, is the fact that the proportion of deaths has shown a steady decrease over the period to which those figures relate.

Tuberculosis is inherently a disease of sadness. It does not strike down the old, the people who are nearing the allotted span of three score and ten years. It operates with the greatest vigour in the younger age groups. The figures in the Year-Book to which I have referred show that the incidence of the disease amongst Australians between the ages of 15 and 30 years is very heavy indeed. A very noted medical scientist, Sir Robert McCarrison, who was Director of Research on Nutrition in India for many years and who carried out some of the most brilliant research work ever done in that country, wrote, in his book Nutrition and National Health -

The still very high incidence of tuberculosis, especially in adolescence, is another outstanding evidence of national ill-health. During the last completed decade, 1921-1930, there were roughly speaking, 45,000 deaths of males, and an equal number of females at ages 15-30.

One of the saddest features of the disease is, as I have already stated, that it strikes down the young with such virulence. Its seeds are often sown before the age of 15 years, and the incidence of death is very high between the ages of 15 and 30 years.

During this debate, most honorable members who have spoken have concentrated their attention upon the curing of the disease. I was particularly interested in the speech made by the right honorable member for Cowper (Sir Earle Page), who referred to the lack of hospital accommodation for tuberculosis sufferers. He said that more and more beds were needed in our hospitals for the treatment of tuberculosis patients. I suggest that the shortage of beds can best be overcome by having fewer and fewer patients to fill the beds that are available. The best way to overcome the disease is to prevent it. Preventative methods are preferable to all the curative methods. Proper food and diet constitute the principal agencies for the prevention of tuberculosis. Fundamental research work in connexion with the prevention of disease undertaken by Sir Robert McCarrison in India many years ago has been described in his book, Nutrition and National Health from which I have already quoted. His experiments were the subject of the “ Cantor Lecture “ delivered before the Royal Society of Arts in 1936. In his book Sir Robert wrote -

Some years ago I made the statement “ that the newer knowledge of nutrition is the greatest advance in medical science since the days of Lister “. When physicians, medical officers of health and the lay public learn to apply the principles which this newer knowledge has to impart . . . then will it do for medicine what sepsis has done for surgery.

It is notable that in Osier’s work no mention was made, as far as I can discover, of the value of nutrition and diet as a means of preventing tuberculosis. describing his work in India. Sir Robert McCarrisonwrote:

To one whose work has lain in India, and who for more than twenty years has been engaged in a study of the relation of faulty food to disease, the belief that such food is of paramount importance in the causation of disease amounts to certainty. . . .

Malnutrition is a chief cause of the lower resistance to infection exhibited by so many of the Indian people; the chief reason why they succumb by hundredsof thousands to the ravages of such scourges as malaria,, kala-azar, cholera, dysentry, leprosy and tuberculosis.

It may be said that the two chief causesof disease are faulty food and diet.

I believe that more and more research should be undertaken into the effect of food and diet on the incidence of tuberculosis. One of the most interesting long-range experiments conducted by Sir Robert McCarrison in India was known as the “ Coonong Experiment “. For the purposes of his experiment he used about 1,000 albino rats of similar weight and fed them on the foods eaten by the various tribes in India and observed for a period of from 187 to 200 days the rate had a life cycle equivalent to a life cycle of 50 years in a human being. The ras were fed on the foods normally eaten by the Sikhs, the Madrassis, the Punjabis and other races in the north-west frontier province. As the result of this feeding, there was reproduced in the rats exactly the same kind of diseases as suffered by those peoples. Sir Robert McCarrison demonstrated that tuberculosis, like many other human diseases, was very largely a nutritional disease. He also discussed the vitamin content of various foods and the effect of their deficiency upon the health of people. Dealing with vitamin C, at page 44 of his book, he says -

Vitamin C is now known to be identical with ascorbic acid - a potent reducing agent. It is thought that the biological activity of ascorbic acid may depend on its double function of oxidation and reduction. . . .

It has, for instance, recently been shown that guinea pigs fed on diets poor in vitamin C, but not sufficiently lacking in it to cause manifest scurvy, develop the symptoms characteristic of rheumatic fever when streptococci, isolated from cases of this disease in human beings, are administered to them; guinea pig.receiving diets rich in vitamin C do not, or only in relatively few cases, develop these symptoms when similarly treated. The same appears to be true of intestinal tuberculosis; a high proportion of those receiving too little vitamin C develop tuberculous ulceration of the intestine when virulent tubercle bacilli are administered to them by the mouth, while only a small proportion of those receiving abundance of vitamin C develop this condition when similarly treated. These observations in guinea pigs may prove to be of significance in regard to rheumatism and intestinal tuberculosis in man; for man resembles the guinea pig in this, that he is equally sensitive to want of vitamin C.

He then pointed out the sources of vitamin C, specifically mentioning parsley, green chillies, cabbage, orange and lemon juice, brussels sprouts, cauliflower and other leafy vegetables as being the most desirable in that connexion. He also said that green leafy vegetables rapidly lose their vitamin content as their freshness diminishes. The dissection of statistics shown in the I’ ear-Book, appears to indicate that dwellers in the cities are more susceptible to tuberculosis than are those who live in country areas. That may be explained by the fact that, owing to the delay in getting supplies of green vegetables from the farms to the consumers in the cities, vegetables lose a good deal of their health-giving qualities and render the residents of the cities more susceptible to diseases of that kind. Dealing with the diets of the Madrassis and the Punjabis, Sir Robert McCarrison said -

We must remember that the diet of poorer classes of England give as little protection against disease as the Madrassi diet.

He was speaking of condition in 1933. He went on -

Tuberculosis is nearly twice as common in Madras as in the Punjab and one is reminded in this connexion, of how closely the incidence of this disease is related to malnourishment in England.

He then went on to point out that the rich sources of vitamin A, so much in evidence in the Sikh diet compared with that of the Madrassis. were animal fats, codliver oil, milk, butter, liver, eggs, herrings, carrots and fresh green vegetables. I am glad to notice that the Prime Minister is in the House because I am sure that, as a kindly man, the right honorable gentleman will be particularly interested in the subject with which I am now dealing.

Mr Burke:

– “What is the honorable member “squaring up” for now?

Mr ABBOTT:

– I am not criticizing the Prime Minister. I was about to point out to the right honorable gentleman how an action innocently taken by him may have serious effects on the spread of tuberculosis. Subsidies were recently withdrawn from certain articles of food. The subsidy was retained on butter but was withdrawn from whole milk, notwithstanding that whole milk, being rich in vitamin A, is a valuable protective food and .a preventive of the spread of tuberculosis. By withdrawing the subsidy on whole milk the Government denied to many school children, who are unable to express their views on the subject, an item of diet most valuable in the prevention of tuberculosis.

Mr Burke:

– That is the most hypocritical statement which the honorable member has ever made.

Mr ABBOTT:

– I cannot understand why my statement should be so described by the honorable member. My statement is- borne out by the highest nutritional experts, not only of the British Empire, but also of the world. I stress this matter to show that the Government’s action may have condemned many young children in this community to a life that is ruined by tuberculosis. Another factor upon which stress should be laid is the necessity for adequate housing, cleanliness, and freedom from economic fear. Further, I shall refer to something that was said publicly by a Minister of this Government. The Minister for “Works and Housing (Mr. Lemmon) said, in this chamber, that there would be no slum clearance in Australia as long as new hemes were awaiting erection. In view of the incidence of tuberculosis, that is a dangerous and deadly doctrine, because while it is possible to build up resistance to this disease by proper diet, the danger of mass infection reaches its height in the slums, not only of this country, but also of the United Kingdom, Europe, and, as the Minister for the Army (Mr. Chambers) pointed out, in Japan, where slums are extensive and overcrowding is rife. One of the best preventives of tuberculosis is clean housing with plenty of fresh air and light.

  1. shall refer now to the Papworth group settlement for the treatment of tuberculous patients, established in England in 1916. There is a most interesting book on this settlement, entitled The Papworth Families by Brieger, and containing a preface by Sir A. S. McNally, K.C.B., M.D., who, I understand, is a high authority on the subject. The founder of the settlement was Sir Pendrill Varier Jones, who was probably one of the greatest authorities on tuberculosis of modern times. He was original in thought and research, and had sufficient courage to make experiments with which contemporary medical men disagreed. In his preface to the book, Sir A. S. McNally, referring to the Papworth scheme, stated that one school of thought held that the children of tuberculous parents, with the care that was exercised and the diet that was provided in the settlement, would be free of tuberculosis when they left the settlement, but would quickly contract the disease in the outside world. The other school of thought held the view that, with such a large number of clinically diseased persons in the settlement, a large proportion of the children would contract tuberculosis, starting with meningitis among babies. Jones disagreed with both opinions. Sir A. S. McNally says of him -

He was of John Hunter’s mind in his advice to .Tenner -

I think your solution is just; but why think? Why not try the experiment?

He tried the experiment, with the most outstanding success. After eleven years, in his annual report for 1927, Sir Pendrill stated -

At Papworth Tuberculosis Colony (a tuberculosis village of 327 persons), no child (and some have now come of age) has, while a member of the community, contracted tuberculosis of the lungs, glands, bones or joints, or indeed, in any known clinical form.

That was a remarkable result. Emphasis has been laid in this debate upon the grave danger of becoming infected with tuberculosis by contact with sufferers from that disease. The Minister for the Army spoke of young people in sanatoriums being not only condemned to death, but also being regarded as outcasts from the community. He spoke of the potency of the fear of this disease. The results of the Papworth experiment must give the greatest possible hope to sufferers from tuberculosis who have been cut off from the natural ways of life, including parents who have had their children taken from them because of the danger of passing this disease on to them. As 1 have said, in the Papworth village, tuberculous patients lived with their families. Not only were tuberculous parents per nutted to have their children with them, but also children were born in the village; yet, in the first eleven years of the scheme not one child was found to be affected by tuberculosis. In 1940, Sir Pendrill Varrier Jones said -

We have had no single case of tuberculosis meningitis. Those who have left the settlement to seek education or employment else where are all free from the disease, just as 1 told yon in 1032.

Dealing with the principle of making payments to sufferers from tuberculosiso that they need not work - a principle that is involved in this measure - Sir Pendrill stated -

To prevent disease, it is necessary te create an environment rather than to give » dole where there is no opportunity for money to modify the condition of its recipient.

I believe that a certain amount of work by patients in settlements such as the Papworth village is of the greatest assistance to sufferers from tuberculosis because it restores to them the confidence that they have lost while suffering from this disease and it enables them to rehabilitate themselves. Light work is a great healer. In addition, the vh medicatria - the will within a patient to conquer the disease from which he suffer? - assists enormously in the cure.

Sir Pendrill abo said that village settlements for tuberculosis sufferers hae come to stay. He added -

Village settlements for tuberculosis case.have come to stay - nay, advance to greater and greater, strength as the principles on which they are founded become appreciated and better known. They have ceased to be an experiment. The settlement at Papworth has been shown to be capable of reproduction.

Hope and work create vitality, but vitality quickly evaporates unless both hope .and work are translated into economics.

I believe, therefore, that we should b«prepared to give every possible assistance to “ village “ schemes.

Another point thatI wish to emphasize is the necessity to study nature. I was amazed to hear in the Minister’s second-reading speech the statement that medical men to-day knew all about tuberculosis, and could cure it. While I agree that a vast amount of research has already been done, I believe that much could be gained from a study of the habits of wild animals which do not suffer from this disease and ascertain why they are immune.With regard to the zoological distribution of the disease. A System of Medicine points out that amongst animals in the natural state, tuberculosis is practically unknown, but that it is quite otherwise with animals in menageries and zoological gardens.I believe, therefore, that we must endeavour to reproduce in our modern civilization some of the conditions, including the food, of a far simpler age, before the construction of large cities. I believe that there is much truth in the words of Longfellow, inThe Fiftieth Birthday of Agassiz -

And Nature, the old nurse, took

The child upon her knee,

Saying: “Here is a story-book

Thy Father has written for thee.’’’ ” Come, wander with me,” she said, “Into regions yet untrod;

And read what is still unread

In the manuscripts of God.”

I believe that by studying natural conditions much can be learned about preventive medicine. If we could reduce the incidence of this dread disease, we should be able to overcome the desperate shortage of hospital accommodation mentioned by the right honorable member for Cowper (Sir Earle Page).

The bill contains some excellent features, and also some very bad ones. I hope that the Government will accept amendments which members of the Opposition propose to move when the bill is in committee. One particularly objectionable feature is the proposal to place the officer in charge of medical services for tuberculosis under the control of the Director-General of Health for the Commonwealth. The bill states that the words “Director-General” shall mean the Director-General of Health of the Commonwealth. I do not know who that gentleman is, so that the remarks which

I am about to make have no personal application to him. The Commonwealth Health Department is a part of the Public Service, and for many years was little better than a quarantine service. The Director-General is not chosen necessarily for his medical qualifications, but because of seniority in the service. The duties of the person administering the scheme are defined in clause 6 as follows : -

  1. take steps for the establishment or taking over and conduct of hospitals, sanatoria, laboratories, diagnostic centres, after-care, radiological and other units and clinics for the diagnosis, treatment and control of tuberculosis ;
  2. arrange for the provision of scholarships for the post graduate study of tuberculosis ;

    1. the examination of persons suffering from, or suspected to be suffering from, tuberculosis;
    2. the medical care of persons affected by tuberculosis ;
    3. the dissemination of information as to the steps necessary to prevent the spread of tuberculosis; and
    4. the after-care and rehabilitation ofsufferers from tuberculosis: and
  3. conduct, assist and provide for research, investigations, experiments, studies and training in relation to the detection and diagnosis of tuberculosis and the treatment and aftercare of sufferers from tuberculosis.

The officer directly concerned with the performance ofall those duties is to be subject to the Director-General of Health, who is a Commonwealth public servant, a man who holds his office, not because of his outstanding scientific attainments, but because he has been a good and faithful servant to the Commonwealth over a number of years. That is wrong. “We should try to attract to the position men of the type of Sir HowardFlorey, or such as Louis Pasteur was in his day and generation. The proposed arrangement constitutes a weakness in the bill which may prevent the scheme from functioning inthe best interests of the public.

The Government has done an extraordinary thing in introducing into this bill what has become known as the doctrine of ministerial responsibility. Subclause 2 of clause 9 is as follows: - (2.) Allowances under the last preceding sub-section -

  1. shall be payable to such persons or classes of persons, subject to such conditions and in such manner as the Director-General, subject to the direction of the Minister, determines;

    1. shall be at such rates (but not exceeding such rates as are prescribed) as the Director-General, subject to the direction of the Minister determines.

This is a purely technical function. Yet the Minister is ‘to retain the right to tell the Director-General what he shall do. The Minister should act upon the advice of the Director-General. Another bad feature, although not mentioned in the bill, is the proposal to pay the person in charge of tubercular work a salary that begins at £1,700 and rises to a maximum of £1,900 a year. His commencement salary will be only £200 more than that paid to a member of this Parliament, and I have yet to learn that his pension rights will be as good as those which members of Parliament propose to give themselves. It is absurd that we should offer only £1,700 a year to a. scientifically trained man who ought to be at the head of his profession. It should not signify that Dr. Wunderly may not seek more money. At some time in the future it will bc desirable to appoint to the position a man who has no resources other than his salary, and such a man, if properly qualified, is entitled to more than £1,700, or even £1,900 a year. The Government pays £3,500 a year to a man whose greatest qualification was that he was able to sell more articles at less than 2s. 6d. each than anybody else in Australia, yet it proposes to pay a maximum of £1,900 to a trained scientist who is outstanding for his work in the tuberculosis field. The Government should learn that if it wants the best work it must pay a good salary. I congratulate the Government on having brought in this bill, but I repeat that it must be amended in certain particulars if it is to give the best results. In particular, the bill should provide for the payment of a suitable salary so that we may obtain in the future the services of first-class men. We do not want a second-class job done by mediocrities.

Mr WHITE:
Balaclava

.- This matter transcends party politics, and all honorable members can join in ensuing that we shall get the best results for the work that is to be done. The Government is to be commended upon introducing a measure designed to eliminate a scourge which takes a heavy toll of the young people of the nation. 1 hope that the Government will allow freedom of action to those who are appointed to operate the scheme. We are most fortunate that there is available to us the comprehensive report on tuberculosis by Dr. Wunderly who is an acknowledged world authority on the disease. He has conducted researches into the causes of tuberculosis, and has had practical experience of the disease with the treatment of ex-service patients. Honorable members should study the report closely. I hope that the Government will adopt Dr. Wunderly’s recommendations if, by so doing, the bill can be improved in any way. I do not claim to be an authority on tuberculosis, but I have been most interested to hear the helpful suggestions which honorable members, who have some knowledge of the subject, have offered during this debate. I agree with the opinion which the right honorable member for Cowper (Sir Earle Page) has expressed that the agreement with the States for the expenditure of money in combating tuberculosis should be on a more specific basis than the bill provides. In this respect, I suggest that the Federal Aid Roads Agreement should be taken as an example. The money could then be allocated in different ways, and be expended on building sanatoriums and in other most useful directions. When I make that suggestion, I do not desire to cramp the efforts of the States. The Government should avail itself of the services of prominent directors of medical research and medical practitioners such as Sir Sydney ..Sewell, and Dr. Maxwell James, of Victoria, who are acknowledged authorities on tuberculosis. I should like the Government ultimately to increase the financial assistance which it is granting for the conduct of the anti-tuberculosis campaign because we cannot An to- >’’ ‘> our endeavours to eradicate this dread disease

  1. have only one other comment to offer on trip bill. As this legislation is original in many respects, it is bound to have certain minor omissions or defects. I am wondering why more adequate financial provision has not been made for persons under the age of 21 who have contracted tuberculosis. Recently, two specific cases have come to my notice and I have referred them to the Minister for Health ( Senator McKenna) . A person under the age of 21 years may contact tuberculosis, anu ais doctor may advise him not . to work but to remain at home until he can be admitted to a sanatorium. As honorable members are doubtless aware, institutions tor the treatment of tuberculosis patients are full, and a person may be obliged to wait for six months or twelve months before he can be admitted. He may even die while he is awaiting admission. However, while he remains at home, the unfortunate patient may suffer a reduction of income from a reasonable wage to the tuberculosis allowance of 10s. a week. As one who has a thorough knowledge of this subject, the Minister will agree that a sufferer, in the circumstances which I have described, is placed in a most difficult and worrying position. I urge the Minister to consider the advisability of granting a special allowance to a young person who cannot be admitted to an institution for treatment. He must remain in the home, and receive proper care and special food. Other members of the household also incur the risk of infection while he is there. In the circumstances, the sufferer should receive the invalid pension until he is admitted to an institution for treatment. I do not propose to move an amendment designed to give effect to my submission, because I believe that the Minister will consider it most sympathetically. Perhaps the circumstances which I have described can be met by an appropriate regulation. The Minister for Health is aware of the position and I believe that he is sympathetic. I. hope that prompt action will be taken to repair this minor omission from an otherwise satisfactory bill.
Mr ANTHONY:
Richmond

.- I congratulate the Government on introducing the bill, because I regard it as a progressive step along the road which we should be travelling to safeguard and protect the health of the people. At the same time, the measures which the Government proposes to take in order to combat tuberculosis remind me of the steps which are taken to increase hospital accommodation for traffic accident cases, when virtually nothing is being done to reduce the number of road accidents. Although an amount of £500,000. will be provided, and properly so, for the treatment of sufferers from tuberculosis, very little cognizance appears to have been taken of the report of the Advisory Council, on Nutrition, which, for some year3, investigated subjects associated with the health of the Australian people, including tuberculosis. The members of that committee were men of great eminence in the medical and nutritional spheres, and included the then DirectorGeneral of Health, Dr. J. H. L. Cumpston, the Chief Executive Officer of the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, Sir David Rivett, Professor S. M. Wad]1 am, of the University of Melbourne, and Professor Harvey Sutton and Professor Lambie, of the University of Sydney. They conducted their researches in 1936, and submitted six interim reports before they presented their final report in 193S. The government of the day did not do a great deal to implement many of the committee’s recommendations, but action was taken to give effect to some of them. I shall read one or two of the recommendations, because I believe that if we are to combat tuberculosis and deal with other problems associated with national health, we shall not achieve satisfactory results by the methods which the Minister for Health (Senator McKenna) appears to he adopting, which include a compulsory form of national medicine and the pouring of patent medicines down the throats of the people in order to cure them of ills which could have been prevented by the application of the principles which the Advisory Council on Nutrition has enunciated in its report. One paragraph in the report of the council in respect of tuberculosis reads as follows: -

M the Australasian Medical Council held in Adelaide in 1937, the following resolution wis passed: -

That this congress is of the opinion that the economical factors are of the utmost importance in the control of tuberculosis and that in order that the resistance of contacts may be improved and maintained, a system of allowances should be introduced by the Government which will enable the nutrition of the families of tuberculosis patients to bc adequately provided for.

As far as I have been able to discover, the bill does not give effect to that recommendation for the provision of nutritional aids to increase the resistance, not only of a person who has contracted tuberculosis, but also of other members of the household who are contacts, and, therefore, are considered to be susceptible to the disease. T hope that the Government will take some action to implement that recommendation and other recommendations of the Advisory Council on Nutrition.

I shall not attempt to discuss the cure of tuberculosis, because, frankly, honorable members, who are laymen, must be guided by the recommendations of specialists in this disease. However, my common sense tells me what is necessary for the maintenance and preservation of health. I have also the advantage of having studied the recommendations of the Advisory Council on Nutrition and other professional bodies. In my opinion, one of the most important factors for increasing resistance to diseases, of which tuberculosis is the most terrible, is a proper diet. The attack on the problem of tuberculosis cannot end and will not even begin with the passing of this legislation, valuable as it may be. The attack must be concentrated; It involves the whole of the national policy in respect of the provision of proper food. Those who produce the food must be enabled to do so at a price and under conditions that will encourage them to produce in sufficient quantities. We have heard a good deal about starvation in Great Britain. We have been told of how the British people have suffered reductions of the amount of the various articles of diet that they used to enjoy. But one fact that has been brought back by all who have been to Britain is that there is no malnutrition of children in Great Britain. Those who are going to school and those who are not of’ school age are being cared for in the dietary field. The children in Great Britain are better off in respect of a properly balanced diet than are the children in Australia on the whole, because, by law, every child in Britain is provided daily by the Government with at least one half-pint of milk and other foods that balance the diet. In Australia children are very often well fed in that they have sufficient to fill their stomachs, but it is doubtful whether they obtain enough of the foods which are vital to the protection of their health. The policy of the Commonwealth as well as that, all the States has to a great degree failed in that it has not enabled the producers of milk, butter, cheese and eggs to produce in sufficient quantity “to meet not only the needs of our kinsmen overseas, but also the needs of 011 own people in Australia. I do noi want to quote at any length from the report of the Advisory Council on Nutrition, but page after page deal? with the fact that we should be providing for our population in both cities and towns greater quantities of foods that develop resistance to all kinds of disease, including tuberculosis. There is something very wrong in the fact that our dairy farmers, despite the assurances that the Government has given from time to time, are finding it unprofitable to expand production. Dairy production gradually declined during the war and is now about static, with production far below the possibilities of this country and the requirements of the people of Australia and Great Britain. Therefore, I hope that the Minister for Health will study the recommendations of those who have made a survey over several years involving the examination of hundreds, and, possibly, thousands of household budgets in Australia, and also involving the medical examination of children at school in all parts of Australia. Those recommendations should be given effect to by the provision that has been urged in this report of a properly balanced diet for every Australian child. That has not been done, is not being done and will not be done unless there is a more sympathetic attitude to those who are producing the food to feed Australian children.

I do not propose to deal with all the merits of the bill other than to say that there must he a first-class attack upon the enemy. I read the second-reading speech of the Minister. It. was. full of platitudes at the beginning, but it got down to a bit of good horse-sense towards the end. He said at the beginning “ Peace hath her victories no less renowned than war “ and that we must make an attack upon the disease as if it were an enemy as dangerous to the community as were those that assailed us during the war. Lf we are to make that sort of attack, it will not be made by the organization to be created under the bill. The man who is supposed to be the geneal in. charge of the attack, the Eisenhower of the attack as it were, will have to ask his immediate chief, the Director-General of Health, what he may do, and the DirectorGeneral of Health, in turn, must ask the Minister, because everything is subject to the direction of the Minister. There is one brake imposed upon another brake, to that the person, with enthusiasm and energy, ‘bursting to do something to solve this problem, will find himself frustrated at almost every turn. As for the advisory council that is also to he *et up, the provision that it shall be called together only as the Director-General of Health directs means that if he never wants to call it together it will not be called together. The council will have no initiative of its own and may not be encouraged to give advice, [f we are to attack the problem by treating it as an enemy and making an aggressive onslaught upon it we shall have to create an organization with more initiative in its own right than it is proposed to give to this advisory council. I know that much criticism can always be levelled at any new scheme of this kind. My remarks are not intended as criticism of what the Government has done, or has failed to do but I look upon the bill as the beginning of an effort to attack the dread disease of tuberculosis and I wish the effort to be successful. I express the hope, as other honorable gentlemen on both sides of the chamber have done, that it will be regarded as a non-party measure and that the Government will not maintain ite attitude, which it seems to imagine is necessary to its- prestige, that it will accept no suggestions or amendments because the bill is perfect as it stands. 1 do. not believe that it is perfect. Much can- he done to. improve it. Since no political advantage is to be gained cut of a bill like this, because it is for the benefit of the community and those who are stricken with tuberculosis belong to every class, party, religion, and section of the community, I hope that consideration will be given to suggestions made from this side. The Government has our goodwill and the goodwill of every one in what it is attempting to do in this measure.

Mr HOLLOWAY:
Melbourne PortsMinister for Labour and National Service · ALP

m reply - The bill has evoked a good deal of debate, as we hoped it would, because of its serious natureand because of the great problem that it aims to combat. The right honorable member for Cowper (Sir Earle Page) made a strong point that plans should be laid down in detail in the bill and the honorable member for New England (Mr. Abbott) emphasized the need to have the Division of Tuberculosis in a coffer dam of its own rather than in the Department of Health. Other members of the Opposition contended that the bill does not pay sufficient attention to the prevention of tuberculosis, and some suggested that the Director of the Division of Tuberculosis should not be subject to the control of the Minister but that the Minister should be subject to the control of the Director.

There must be somebody in control, even on paper. It is almost a child-like criticism to say that no course of action can be initiated unless the DirectorGeneral of Health convenes a meeting. Unless honorable members opposite are philosophical anarchists, they must eoncede that there must be somebody in control. In 99 per cent, pf the measures that come before this House, words ‘such as “ subject to the direction of the Minister “ appear. In this instance, it does not mean that no meetings will be convened or action initiated unless that course appeals to the Director-General of Health.

The plan on which this bill is based was evolved at a conference of Commonwealth and State Ministers in, I think, June last. It cannot be allowed to remain static; it must progress. The bill is based upon the fundamental principles that were agreed to at that conference. The basis cf the plan is that there shall be complete co-operation between this Government and the State governments. Each government is to appoint a director of tuberculosis, and the division of which he will be in control is to be a section of the general health department of that government. The fundamental basis of the plan has not been departed from in this measure, but it is impossible to embody the complete plan in it. Honorable members opposite have agreed that this is only a beginning. They have said that they hope that more progress will be made, and that they believe that more money will have to be expended. “We have included in the bill the principles that were determined at the conference, after they were put into proper shape by the experts who are concerned with this aspect of the health of our people.

It has been said that the bill does not lay sufficient emphasis upon prevention. There are 40,000 or 50,000 known cases of Tuberculosis in Australia, and there are probably as many more unknown cases that must be discovered. The leading scientific advice is that control of the disease will lead to its prevention. If it is to be controlled, we must discover the people in Australia who are suffering from it. It is possible to prevent a disease that is not already present in the country from being introduced into it, but this terrible disease is already here, although probably not to such a degree as in other countries. We must control what is here. We must isolate sufferers and prevent them from infecting others. We must discover, -.s soon as we can, by means of mass X-rays and other measures, those people who have contracted tuberculosis, but who have not yet notified the medical authorities that they are suffering from it. Surely that is prevention. We can prevent a plague coming into Australia that will affect our people or cattle, but how can we prevent something that is already here from developing? The only way in which that can be done is to isolate people who havecontracted the disease so that they will not contaminate others. Under the heading: of prevention, the conference of Ministers stressed the importance of the provision of good food. Much of what was said: by honorable members opposite this afternoon and last night can be described a? carrying coals to Newcastle. I do not desire to introduce a discordant note intothis discussion, but if I did wish to do so, I could point out to honorable gentlemen opposite that they neglected for years to do all the things that they say shouldbe done now. This is the beginning. I sat on the Opposition benches in thischamber for nearly twenty years, and every week during that time our old friend Dr. Maloney appealed, until we became almost tired of hearing him, to successive Treasurers to supply free milk to children whose parents could not afford to buy milk.

Mr Anthony:

– Even if that be trueit does not justify doing nothing now.

Mr HOLLOWAY:

– I agree, and that is why we are doing something now. The honorable member for Richmond (MiAnthony) said, in effect, that this is the beginning of an attack upon this terrible scourge. If I had been a member of the governments that preceded this Administra tion I should feel ashamed to say that we were only just beginning to deal with this problem.

Mr Anthony:

– You must start something at some time in relation to everything. Perfection is not achieved immediately.

Mr HOLLOWAY:

– Most of the suggestions that have been made, such as the provision of proper food, proper housing, the right environment in which to work and live, isolation from occupations in which the disease is contracted and so on are dealt with in this bill.

I propose to enumerate some of the proposals under the heading of prevention that were agreed to at the conference to which I have referred and which were endorsed by the Director of the Division of Tuberculosis, Dr. Wunderly, of whom every one has spoken so well. Three of them related to the provision of good food, good housing and economic security for the dependants of sufferers from tuberculosis. In this measure, the Australian Government retains the right to pay directly to sufferers the allowances that honorable members opposite have said should be paid. Even if the State governments do not pay them enough, under this measure this Government will have the power to make payments directly to them. We are satisfied that there is no hope of curing a sufferer from tuberculosis who has agreed to be isolated and treated unless he knows that those who depend upon him will be properly maintained during his isolation and treatment. The location of infectious cases by casefinding with mass X-ray survey and skin testing survey, referred to by the honorable member for Flinders (Mr. Ryan), is also provided for in the bill. The bill also provides for the vaccination of persons exposed to infection with B.C.G. vaccine, one of the most recently discovered vaccines, production of which is to be undertaken by the Commonwealth Serum Laboratories. Provision has also been made for medical care and isolation of patients in hospitals, sanatoriums, and, where suitable, in their own homes, for after-care to ensure that they shall not break down again; for rehabilitation to provide suitable employment according to the sufferer’s ability to work; for the economic security of sufferers and their dependants by payment of adequate allowances to encourage sufferers to refrain from working and to undergo treatment, to minimize the spread of tuberculosis and for the after-care treatment and rehabilitation of sufferers. Honorable members opposite have said that detailed plans should be set out in the bill. That would be impossible. The needs of the campaign will be ascertained from day to day. Dr. Wunderly and his colleagues, in collaboration with the State Ministers for Health, will no doubt discover every month that extensions of the plan will be necessary. The plan will be extended either by regulation or by an amendment of the legislation as the need arises. It is impossible to embody the whole of the details of the plan in the measure. It has been suggested that wo should establish a separate tuberculosis department. The experts in this field do not believe that to be necessary. The Commonwealth Department of Health, which is under the control of the Director-General of Health, already deals with all matters pertaining to the health of the people. An advisory council consisting of the directors of tuberculosis of the Commonwealth and each State is to be appointed and it will function at the University of Sydney. It is intended that the Commonwealth Director of the Division of Tuberculosis shall be the chairman of that council. He will act as a member of that council independently. Although the Government fully sympathizes with the proposals submitted by the honorable member for New England (Mr. Abbott), it is only fair that I should point out to the honorable gentleman now that it cannot accept the amendments which he has foreshadowed because it does not regard them as necessary. In considering the proposed advisory council, the honorable member for Flinders omitted to “ read the provisions of sub-clause 3 of clause 8. It is true that the bill provides that the Director-General of Health shall be the chairman of the advisory council, but. sub-clause 3 of clause 8 provides that the Director-General of Health may appoint some other person to act in his stead.

Mr Abbott:

– Only in bis absence.

Mr HOLLOWAY:

– He may nominate a person who shall be chairman of the council.

Mr Abbott:

– -Sub-clause 3 of clause 8 provides that he may do so in the absence of the Director-General.

Mr HOLLOWAY:

– The intention of the Government is that the Director of of the Division of Tuberculosis shall act as chairman of the council.

Mr Ryan:

– If so, why was not such a provision included in the bill?

Mr HOLLOWAY:

– I shall look at that matter again when the bill is in committee. The Director-General of Health, who has all the activities of a large and important department under his control, would, in all probability, take very little part in the proceedings of the council, which will deal solely with tuberculosis. Naturally he will direct the Director of the Division of Tuberculosis to act as chairman.

Mi1. Abbott. - Will a provision to that effect be incorporated in the bill?

Mr HOLLOWAY:

– Criticism was also uttered of the proposal that the director shall be subject to ministerial direction. Criticism of the principle of ministerial direction has been levelled at almost every measure introduced into this Parliament. Once again the old Opposition bogy of ministerial control has been raised. As ‘all honorable members are aware the phraseology of the clause empowering the Minister to issue directions is almost identical with that used in other measures. This plan is based on an agreement arrived at by a conference of Commonwealth and State Ministers for Health this year. The detailed plan was drawn up on the 29th June last. Complementary legislation will be passed by the State parliaments to enable effect to be given to the plan. Each of the States will appoint a director of tuberculosis who will co-operate with the Commonwealth director in carrying out the plan. We are indeed fortunate in having succeeded in obtaining the services of Dr. Wunderly as our director. The plan is sufficiently elastic to meet changing needs. The amendments foreshadowed by honorable members opposite are based on a desire to leave the director free from direction by the Minister or the Director-General of Health. Fear of the improper use of such power of direction is unfounded.

The Director of the Division of Tuberculosis will function largely outside the framework of the Department of Health. We believe that the bill covers as fully as possible everything that is needed at this stage to combat tuberculosis and to prevent its spread. There is no more need for a separate department to. administer the scheme for the eradication of tuberculosis than there would be for a, separate department to deal with the cure of measles, or any other disease. If a new department were established such expert assistance as is available to the Department of Health would have to bc divided between the two departments and the time of medical men would unnecessarily he wasted. Whilst honorable members opposite generally support the bill they have criticized it, pointing out that this, that, or some other thing, should be done. There are no omissions from the measure. Provision has been made for adequate allowances to sufferers and their dependants. The Government has in mind that such allowances should approximate the basic wage. The families and dependants of sufferers will be cared for so that the sufferer shall not be subjected to mental worry. ‘ Adequate supplies of milk will also be made available. All the points which have been made the subject of criticism by honorable members opposite a.re coveded in the bill as it stands.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time.

In committee:

Clauses 1 to 3 agreed to.

Clause 4 -

In this Act. unless the contrary intention appears - “ the Director-General “ means the Director-General of Health of the Commonwealth ;

Mr ABBOTT:
New England

– I move -

That, in the definition of “ the DirectorGeneral the words “ Health of the Commonwealth “ he left out, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the following words: - “Medical Services in respect of Tuberculosis “.

It has been objected that we cannot have the Director-General of Health for the Commonwealth and also a directorgeneral of medical services in respect of tuberculosis, as that would imply the setting up of a separate department to deal with tuberculosis. That would not be necessary. The director-general of medical, services in respect of tuberculosis would use the facilities provided by the Department of Health, but he would be in complete control of work directed towards the control and elimination of tuberculosis. As 1 said before, he should be a man possessing first-class qualifications, a. man of the scientific stature of Sir Howard Florey, Pasteur or Lister. This matter is vital because it is provided right throughout the bill that control shall rest in the hands of the Director-General of Health of the Commonwealth.

The bill also provides that the DirectorGeneral of Health shall be chairman of the advisory council, which is a key body because its function is to advise Commonwealth and State authorities. The position of chairman is to he filled by a man who has attained his position, not because of his medical qualifications, but because of his seniority in the Department of Health. I was amazed to hear the Minister quote sub-clause 3 of clause 8 in an attempt to 9how that the bill provided that the director of medical services in respect of tuberculosis would, in fact, be chairman of the advisory council. The subclause provides that the Director-General of Health of the Commonwealth may nominate another person to act as chairman in his absence, but it does not say whom he shall nominate. So far as the bill is concerned, he may nominate the office boy.

Mr Holloway:

– It is intended that the director of tuberculosis services shall act as chairman.

Mr ABBOTT:

– I remind the Minister of the old saying that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. The Minister is not immortal. He may be succeeded by a Minister who will conveniently forget what the present Minister has said. I.”f the Minister believes that the director of medical services in respect of tuberculosis should be chairman of the Advisory Council, why not amend the bill to provide for it? I remind the Minister that, when Australia was in grave danger in 1942, and it was necessary to construct aerodromes rapidly in various parts of the country, it was found that the Department of the Interior was not equal to the task. An Allied Works Council was appointed, of which Mr. E. G. Theodore was appointed chairman, and of which the Director-General of Works in the Department of the Interior was /i member. I suggest that a similar arrangement might be made in the matter we are now discussing. The Director-General of Health of the Commonwealth could be a member of the advisory council, of which the director of medical services in respect of tuberculosis would be chairman. The Minister agrees in principle, but for some fatal reason he will not agree to the bill being amended accordingly. I intend to divide the committee so that every honor able member will be able to -indicate just where he stands on this issue.

Mr RYAN:
Flinders

– I support the amendment, which raises a matter of the greatest moment. The question is, whether the medical services of the Commonwealth 3ha.ll be controlled and developed by members of the medical profession or by public servants. The Social Security Committee, in consultation with members of the medical profession, agreed that medical services should be controlled by medical men, and a recommendation to that effect was forwarded to the Government. Recently, the Minister for Health (Senator McKenna) reached a similar agreement after discussions with the British Medical Association. Now, when the first opportunity presents itself to give effect to that principle, the Government has departed from it. The French have a saying -

I! n’y 11 que lc premier pas qui coute which may be translated as, “ It is only the first step that counts”. We know that the principle adopted by the Government in this instance will be applied on a larger scale when a national medical service is introduced. I hope that the Minister will accept the amendment.

Mr Holloway:

– It is so simple that it is not worth worrying about.

Mr RYAN:

– If it is so simple, why not accept the amendment? We ask that this branch of the Department of Health should be administered in much the same way as is the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, which enjoys semiindependence, without interference from public servants, through it under the general direction of a Minister of the Crown.

Mr BARNARD:
Minister for Repatriation · Bass · ALP

– It is important to remember the significance of titles for various sections of government departments. The honorable member for Flinders (Mr. Ryan) said that the Social Security Committee had made certain recommendations to the Government. I know that he did not intentionally misinterpret anything which the committee recommended; but, if I remember correctly, it was never intended that sections of departments under the control of the

Department of Health should be administered by officers known as directorsgeneral. As a matter of fact, it is impossible to have a director-general in control of only one section of a health service. The same point came up for decision in my own department when we were considering the appointment of a specialist in charge of tuberculosis and another in charge of psychiatry. I decided against the use of the term director-general, but it was necessary to bestow a title that would be descriptive of the person’s work and would distinguish him from other officers.

Mr Abbott:

– What about Mr. Theodore?

Mr BARNARD:

– In this discussion, we are not concerned with Mr. Theodore, who was Director-General of the Allied Works Council. We are considering the title that should he given to the officer in charge of the Division of Tuberculosis in the Department of Health. This bill” represents only an instalment of the Government’s health plan, and, as the honorable member for Flinders will agree, of the recommendations of the Social Security Committee. That committee recommended the adoption of a much broader plan for medical services in Australia, but did not envisage the appointment of a number of officials with the title of director-general. The title of director-general may be bestowed only upon the officer who is DirectorGeneral of Health in the Commonwealth Department of Health.

Mr Holloway:

– That is, the officer who is in charge of the Commonwealth Department of Health generally.

Mr BARNARD:

– That is so. That officer is the director-general of the whole of the medical services of Australia. The Social Security Committee had that matter in mind when making its report on this matter. If the amendment were accepted, there would be a directorgeneral of tuberculosis, a director-general of nutrition, and directors-general of other branches of the medical service. In such circumstances, how would the honorable member for New England describe the officer in complete charge of the Department of Health? Would he call that official the director director-general?

The adoption of the title “DirectorGeneral of Tuberculosis “ would be wrong. The director of “ tuberculosis, who will be employed in the Department of Health, will have sufficient elbow room to do the work which is envisaged in the bill, even if he is not given the title of “ Director-General of Tuberculosis “. The director-general can be only the officer who has complete control of the Department of Health, and, for that reason, the amendment will not achieve the purpose for which it is designed.

Mr FALKINDER:
Franklin

– Like the honorable member for Flinders (Mr. Ryan) and the honorable member for New England (Mr. Abbott), I am not satisfied by what the Minister for Labour and National Service (Mr. Holloway) has said that the purpose which the amendment is designed to achieve is already met in the bill. I do not believe that it is met and the speech by the Minister for Repatriation (Mr. Barnard) strengthens my view. I understand that several States have advocated the adoption of the title “directorgeneral of tuberculosis “. In my opinion, the officer in charge of the Division of Tuberculosis . in the Department of Health should be given a much freer hand than he will have if he is subservient to the Director-General of Health. As the expert on tuberculosis, he should be free to give effect to his views for combating that dread scourge in Australia. I support the amendment.

Mr ABBOTT:
New England

– First, I shall deal with the Minister for Repatriation (Mr. Barnard)-

Mr Barnard:

– I hope that the honorable member will not deal too harshly with me.

Mr ABBOTT:

– I never believe in hitting a featherweight hard. <9?he Minister has completely misunderstood the purpose of the amendment. He has described my proposal as merely a matter of title. That is not correct. The amendment goes to the base of the effective working of the whole organization. The Minister has tried to be amusing, and has sneered at the idea of having a directorgeneral of tuberculosis^-

Mr Barnard:

– That is not so.

Mr ABBOTT:

– If the Minister objects to the words, “ director-general of tuberculosis “, I shall be prepared to compromise with the title of “director of the department of tuberculosis “. If the Director-General of Health were to he described in future as the Director of Health, would that alteration reduce the efficiency of his department? In the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, different divisions have a considerable degree of autonomy, and, in many respects, the Division of’ Tuberculosis in the Department of Health will he akin to some of them. The functions )f the Division of Tuberculosis will include research, which should not be dependent on the will of a man who probably has had little experience of research work and has attained the position of Director-General of Health by virtue of promotion through seniority. Honorable members desire that the provisions of this bill shall operate in the most effective manner. The Minister for Labour and National Service (Mr. Holloway) has agreed, in principle, to my suggestion, but has said that he will not accept the amendment because it is -itch a simple matter. By adopting thai attitude, the Minister is doing a grave wrong to those people who may be prevented from contracting tuberculosis or who may be cured of the disease. He refuses to accept an amendment which will make it possible for the Division of Tuberculosis to function to the best advantage. If the purpose of the amendment is so simple, my proposal should be accepted without further delay. Successive Ministers for Health in future will not be bound by the statement which the honorable gentleman has made this afternoon. From time to time, new DirectorsGeneral of Health will be appointed, and some of them may seriously interfere with the operation of the provisions of this bill, simply because the Minister refuses to accept the amendment. The Minister either does not understand the position, or will not “buck” the civil servants who have told him that he should not accept my proposal.

Mr FRANCIS:
Moreton

.- I add my appeal to those of previous speakers in support of the amendment. Honorable members endorse the prin ciples of the bill, and many of them have expressed satisfaction that an attack is to be made on tuberculosis. Experience has taught us that in a big undertaking of this kind, which calls for the closes possible concentration, the officer in charge of the campaign must have a free hand and the fullest possible scope. The attack on the dread scourge of tuberculosis should be concentrated and sustained by an expert. “We have the highest regard for many officers of the Department of Health, but I should add that all of them possess special qualifications in particular medical subjects. The campaign against tuberculosis will be a job of great magnitude. The proposals in this bill are only the preliminaries to a large scale attack on the disease. Because I hold that opinion, I suggest that the officer in charge of the Division of Tuberculosis should have the fullest possible scope. He should have a department at his service, and should be able to apply his expert knowledge to implement the provisions of the bill. I have found that the Minister for Labour and National Service (Mr. Holloway) to be most reasonable in many matters, and, therefore, I urge him to give further consideration to the amendment which is designed to improve the bill by giving to the expert in charge of the Division of Tuberculosis the fullest scope to implement his ideas.

Mr HOLLOWAY:
Melbourne PortsMinister for Labour and National Service · ALP

– I am sure that the honorable member for Flinders (Mr. Ryan) does not desire to do an injustice to the Minister for Health (Senator McKenna), but I have interpreted him as saying that the Minister has broken or violated a promise which he had made with the British Medical Association. That statement is unfounded in respect of this bill. The Minister has never discussed the subject of tuberculosis with the British Medical Association, and, therefore, could not have broken any agreement with that organization in connexion with the legislation.

The honorable member for New England (Mr. Abbott) has misquoted my words, and I suppose that he will continue to do so, no matter how many times

  1. draw his attention to his error. I did not say that 1 thought that the amendment was so simple that it should be accepted. What I said was that his objective in proposing the amendment was simple, and could properly be covered by the bill in its present form.
Mr RYAN:
Flinders

.- The remarks which I directed against the Minister for Health (Senator McKenna) were prompted by the fact that he had allowed it to be understood that he was in agreement with the general views of the British Medical Association that a national health service should be controlled, in the main, by members of the medical profession. Does the Minister for Labour and National Service (Mr. Holloway) agree with that statement?

Mr Holloway:

– Speaking generally, yes.

Mr RYAN:

– I suggested that the Minister had broken his promise to the British Medical Association in respect of this bill, because this legislation deals mainly with a medical matter, and, therefore, the organization, which is established in connexion with it, should be controlled mainly by members of the medical profession and not by members of the Public Service, as the bill provides. That was the purport of my statement. The Minister for Repatriation (Mr. Barnard) also misinterpreted my remarks. What I said, and I now repeat it, was that members of the Social Security Committee were unanimous in considering that a national medical scheme should be administered and controlled by members of the medical profession, with the adjuncture of officials, such as representatives of the Treasury and the Department of Health. I did not suggest that an inroad has been made in the present functions of the Department of Health or the Director-General of Health. Under this bill the functions of the Department of Health will not be whittled down, but will actually be increased by the addition of a. new section which will be engaged in combating tuberculosis. I emphasize that this purely medical matter should not be placed under the administration of the Director-General of Health, but should come under a separate department.

Mr Holloway:

– The DirectorGeneral of Health is a medical man.

Mr RYAN:

– He is in the sense that he has passed the examinations and has the degrees, but no one can say that he is an expert in tuberculosis, which is what we want.

Mr Holloway:

– But we have the expert.

Mr RYAN:

– I know. I want him to have the power. At present it is proposed that he shall have very little power : none, in fact, except that which he is allowed to exercise by the good grace of the Director-General of Health or the Minister for Health. The amendment would alter his title. I do not care what title he is known by, but insofar as the alteration of his title would alter his functions I am in accord with the proposed alteration, because the important matter is the powers and functions that he will exercise. Clause 6 provides -

The Director-General may, subject to the direction of the Minister -

take steps for the establishment, or taking over and conduct of hospitals, sanatoria, laboratories, diagnostic centres, after-care, radiological and other units and clinics for the diagnosis, treatment and control of tuberculosis ;

arrange for the provision of scholar ships for the post-graduate study of tuberculosis;

the examination of persons suffering from, or suspected to be suffering from tuber culosis ;

the medical care of persons affected by tuberculosis;

the dissemination of information as to the steps necessary to prevent the spread of tuberculosis; and

the after-care and rehabilita tion of sufferers from tuber culosis ; and

conduct, assist and provide for research, investigations, experiments, studies and training in relation to the detec tion and diagnosis of tuberculosis and the treatment and after-care of sufferers from tuberculosis.

All those powers are medical matters, and the Director-General of Health is not the person to exercise them, because that person should be an expert and that expert is the person called the Director of the Division of Tuberculosis. If the Government is prepared to agree to that, some of my objections, though not all, will be removed. I hope that the Government will agree.

Mr THOMPSON:
Hindmarsh

– I have been interested in this debate, especially in the remarks of the honorable member for Flinders (Mr. Ryan) about specialist ability. Until recently, direction of health matters has been mainlyin the hands of State Departments of Health. The Director-General of the Department of Health in South Australia is, like the Director-General of the Commonwealth Department of Health, a medical man, but I do not know that he is an authority in any particular phase of medical science. A section of the South Australian department deals with tuberculosis. It is under the control of experts in tuberculosis. The mental asylum is under the control of experts in mental disorders. The various sections of the department are administered by experts in the particular field that they are concerned with. All, however, are under the general control of the DirectorGeneral of the department, who is responsible to the Minister for Health. I cannot speak with experience of the position in New South “Wales, but I think [ am right in guessing that it is identical with that in South Australia and that experts, responsible to the DirectorGeneral of Health, are in charge of the various activities of the department. The honorable member for Flinders referred to the provisions of clause 6 of the bill, but, if he turns to clause 10, he will see that the Director-General may delegate all or any of his powers and functions, except the power of delegation.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN ( Mr Lazzarini:
WERRIWA, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Order! The committee is dealing with clause 4. The honorable member may make only a passing reference to clause 10, and may not quote extensively from it.

Mr THOMPSON:

– I am making only a passing reference to it. The honorable member for Flinders read the whole of clause 6. I have merely referred to the provision in clause 10, which enables the Director-General to delegate his powers and functions. I should not have spoken but for the fact that the honorable member for New England (Mr. Abbott) said that he would call for a division on the amendment. I do not want it to appear than I am blindly following the Minister in charge of the bill (Mr. Holloway) and that I have no opinions of my own. I have opinions about this matter. 1 point out to honorable gentlemen opposite that the Commonwealth DirectorGeneral will have to work in conjunction with State government authorities in the administration of this legislation. As has been stated by the Minister, the Commonwealth has no over-riding power in this field. All the powers and functions to be exercised under the measure must be carried out in co-operation with the States. It all comes back to the position that the Minister is the man at the head. Under him he has his DirectorGeneral in control of all aspects of health in which the Commonwealth is concerned. I should be disappointed if I thought that he would determine the course to be followed in the application of this policy. I am certain that the Government will take full advantage of the advice and services of the Director of the Division of Tuberculosis, Dr.Wunderly. I do not think the provisions of this clause will in any way prevent that gentleman from giving his best service to the Commonwealth.

Question put -

That the words proposed to be leftout (Mr Abbott’s amendment) stand part of the clause.

The committee divided. (The Temporary Chairman - Mr. H. P. Lazzarini.)

AYES: 31

NOES: 20

Majority 11

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Amendment negatived.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 5 - (1.) The Governor-General may enter into an arrangement with the Governor of a State for the provision by the State, subject to agreed conditions, of services and facilities for the diagnosis, treatment and control of tuberculosis.

Mr EDMONDS:
Herbert

.- Sub-clauses 3 and 4 of this clause give the Minister some jurisdiction in connexion with moneys that are to be made available to the States. Paragraph b. of sub-clause 3 provides - that any such expenditure shall be subject to the approval of the Minister before that expenditure is reimbursed to the State by the Commonwealth.

  1. do not propose to weary the committee by reading the other sub-clause, but I am wondering whether the effect of them is to give the Minister any authority in relation to the equipment that is to be used by the States in the attack on this terrible scourge. I believe that either the Director-General of Health, or the Minister, or the director of tuberculosis, should be able to compel the States, when this money is handed to them, to secure the most modern equipment that it is possible to obtain.

I propose to quote an example to explain the point that I am endeavouring to make. In Queensland the incidence of tuberculosis is not as great as in the southern States, where the population is more concentrated and the climate much cooler. A person that I know very well was being treated for tuberculosis in the Brisbane General Hospital. She had been undergoing the ordinary treatment for about two years, but her health did not improve as much as the doctors considerered that it should. I want to make it quite clear that I am not criticizing the treatment that is given at the Brisbane General Hospital.IpaytributetoDr.Neville who is unremitting in his endeavours todo the utmost of which he is capable. This person was told by Dr. Neville that it would be necessary for her to undergo an operation. He explained that the operation might not be very serious, but it might take the patient a long time to recover from the effects of it. I spoke to my colleague, the honorable member for Denison (Dr. Gaha) about the case. He suggested that I should endeavour to prevent the operation from taking place in. Brisbane and that, if possible, the patient should consult Dr. Bell Ferguson, in Melbourne, who, he informed me, had been brought to Australia by the Victorian Government and had carried out diagnostic work in tuberculosis with marked success for many years. The patient was taken to Melbourne and she visited Dr. Bell Ferguson. The X-ray photographs were presented to Dr. Bell Ferguson, who said that they appeared to indicate that an operation was necessary, as all of them showed a lung infection. He said, however, that he would not give a final opinion until he had a Tomograph photograph taken. It is because of the conclusion which he reached after he had examined the Tomograph photograph that I address myself to this clause.

Mr HOLLOWAY:

– The clause deals with the powers of the Director of the Division of Tuberculosis.

Mr EDMONDS:

– I wish to make sure that the director shall have power to direct the States to procure the most modern available equipment for the diagnosis of tuberculosis. Not only may the use of that equipment save patients from inconvenience and long suffering, but it may also save the lives of very many people, as I honestly and firmly believe it saved the life of the person whose case I have outlined. After examining the Tomograph photograph, Dr. Bell Ferguson said in effect to the patient, “I have good news to give you. You are completely cured of tuberculosis. I do not blame the doctors in Brisbane for their decision to operate, because if I had only the equipment available to them I should have had no alternative but to give the same decision as they gave “. Thus, although the Brisbane doctors had cured this person of the dreaded disease, they did not realize that they had done so, because they did not have the modern equipment available to the Melbourne specialist. The Minister for Health, the Director-General of Health or the director dealing with tuberculosis should be empowered to say to the States, “You. cannot hope to do an efficient job with the money we are making available unless you secure the most modern equipment with which to carry out your task”. Under this clause, power is vested in the Minister over the expenditure of the moneys proposed to be provided under this ‘bill. If it is not intended that the Minister or his officers shall have such power as I envisage, the clause should be amended to give them that power-

Mr Holloway:

– That power is vested in the Minister in a later clause of the bill.

Mi-. EDMONDS. - I am pleased to have that assurance. I was closely associated with the person whose case I have outlined. Had that person not been able to travel to Melbourne - and many people are unable to afford to travel from Brisbane to Melbourne to seek medical advice - a serious error would have been made. I trust that the power of the Minister to direct that the most modern equipment be secured will be fully implemented.

Mr ABBOTT:
New England

– I move -

That, in sub-clause (1.), before the word “ diagnosis “, the word “prevention,” be inserted.

I cannot think that the Minister will refuse to accept this amendment. If he does so he will, in effect, indicate that the tuberculosis service of the Commonwealth is not to strive for the prevention of the disease. The necessity for the insertion of the word “ prevention “ in the clause was shown by the speech of the honorable gentleman from which it was apparent that he completely misunderstood the meaning of the word “ prevention “ when used in relation to disease. The honorable gentleman said - and as I quote from memory I hope I do not do him an injustice -

If there is a disease in the country the only way it can be prevented is by controlling it.

The purpose of my amendment is to enable the disease to be completely eliminated. It is not a question of control but of prevention. In his book National Health and Nutrition, Dr. McCarrison discussed the prevention of disease by dietetics. He first referred to the example provided by Miss Margaret McMillan, in her book The Nursery School. He said -

Hear what Miss McMillan had to say of the weakly and ill-conditioned children who came from the slums of Deptford to her nursery school; children, rickety and bronchitic; children with adenoids and dental caries; children with inflammatory states of eyes, nose, ear and throat. After they had been nurtured and properly fed for three or four years they are, she tells us, almost all cured of any ailments they may have had, “ they are all straight and well grown, the average child is a well-made child, with clean skin, alert, sociable, eager for life and new experiences “.

He then dealt with the treatment of tuberculosis at the Papworth village settlement. He said -

In this village of 400 persons no child born there during the twenty years of its existence has, while a member of the community, contracted tuberculosis of the lungs, bones, joints, cerebral membranes, nor indeed, any clinical form of the disease. Yet these children are the offspring of parents who suffer from tuberculosis and are in constant contact with them. How has their remarkable achievement been brought about? Sir Pendrill Varrier Jones, to whose endeavours it is due, explains it as follows: -

Adequate food supply. Ignorance as to dietetic values is dispelled by advice at the clinic, by lectures and by the village nurse. Also by actua.1 demonstration by food supplied from the Central Institution at small cost.

Adequate food supply is possible because there is an adequate and prolonged parental income, maintained by means of assured employment.

He gave other reasons but he summed up by saying . that the child’s resistance to disease is primarily maintained by adequate nutrition. If the word “ prevention “ he not inserted in the clause, how will the tuberculosis services of the States and the Commonwealth be able to study the effects of nutrition and dietetics on the prevention of the disease? It is apparent that the Minister does not believe that tuberculosis can be wiped out.

Mr Holloway:

– I did not say that.

Mr ABBOTT:

– That was the effect of the honorable gentleman’s statement.

Mr Holloway:

– Not at all.

Mr ABBOTT:

– That is what the honorable gentleman’s words conveyed.

Mr Holloway:

– The honorable member is a twister.

Mr ABBOTT:

– The Minister said that prevention meant control.

Mr Holloway:

– I said that the word ‘ control “ in this bill means “ prevention “.

Mr ABBOTT:

– We ask that the clause be amended to enable the Commonwealth and State directors of tuberculosis services to explore thoroughly preventive measures. Many years ago the stock disease “ scab “ which had been imported from other countries caused great losses among our sheep. About 80 or 90 years ago that disease was completely eradicated from Australia. The prevention of disease is brought about, as in the case of fluke in sheep, not merely by administering medicine, but also by attacking the infectious organism which causes the disease. The resistance of people to tuberculosis can be greatly increased by adequate nutrition. The Minister referred to the need for assuring the peace of mind of sufferers from the disease and emphasized how necessary it is that they should not regard the disease as incurable. Sir Pendrill Varr rier-Jones proved at the Papworth settlement that sufferers were not only able to have their children with them but also that they could breed healthy children. The peace of mind of the sufferer is an important psychological factor in the treatment of the disease. [ ask the Minister to accept the amendment.

Mr HOLLOWAY:
Melbourne PortsMinister for Labour and National Service · ALP

– The honorable member for New England (Mr. Abbott) and other members opposite have emphasized that the director of tuberculosis services should be given complete authority to deal with the cure and prevention of tuberculosis. I assure them that the director will be given full authority and that he has informed me that wherever the word “ control “ appears in this measure it is intended to include “prevention. All the powers necessary to prevent this disease from developing in this country are contained in the measure. I do not intend, to spoil the bill by making unecessary amendments.

Mr ABBOTT:
New England

– Clause 8 (4) (&) reads as follows: - (&) the provision of standards for equipment and apparatus for use in relation to the prevention, diagnosis, treatment and control of tuberculosis.

If the word “ prevention “ is necessary in that paragraph, why is it not necessary also in clause 5 (1) ? The amendment proposes to insert the word “ prevention “ before the same words as those which it precedes in clause 8 (4) (6), yet the Minister stubbornly refuses to accept it. I ask the honorable gentleman to reconsider his attitude.

Dame ENID LYONS:
Darwin

– I support this” amendment, for the reasons that have already been given by other members of the committee. 3 suggest to the Minister that the education of housewives in dietetics is a possible means of promoting the prevention, of tuberculosis. It is true to say that the average housewife does not read extensively the health articles that appear in the newspapers. Generally speaking, those who have young children are busily engaged in their household tasks and are inclined to ignore reading matter of that kind. I suggest that there should be issued to them by the advisory council suggestions in regard to budgeting. They know in a general way that some foods are protective and that others are merely filling foods. The filling foods are the ones upon which people with small incomes are apt to concentrate. I suggest that the advisory council should issue bulletins suggesting the proportions of the family income that should bc expended upon various kinds of foods. Such bulletins would be of great assistance teaching housewives methods of preventing illnesses such as tuberculosis. The bulletins could specify the proportion of the family income that shall be allocated to the purchase of protective foods. If that were done, it would give the housewives something to “bite on”. They could say that if they had £3 a week to spend on food, so much should be used to buy dairy products, oranges and other protective foods. The bulletins could be varied from time to time.

Education is the real basis of all preventive medicine, and this type of educational work could well be undertaken by the advisory council. I believe that, unless the word “ prevention “ is included in sub-clause 1. there will be no power to deal with matters such as that to which I have referred. I urge the Minister to accept the amendment. It cannot damage the clause in any way, but can only extend its beneficent operations.

Amendment negatived.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 6 -

The Director-General may, subject to the direction of the Minister - (i). . . (ii).. .

Mr ABBOTT:
New England

– I move -

That, in paragraph (c), after sub-paragraph ( ii), the following sub-paragraph be inserted: -

If the amendment is agreed to, the clause will read -

The Director-General may, subject to the direction of the Minister . . .

the examination of persons suffering from, or suspected to be suffering from, tuberculosis;

ii ) the medical care of persons affected by tuberculosis; (iia) the prevention of tuberculosis.

The remarks that I made on clause 5 with regard to prevention apply with equal force to this clause. The Minister refused to agree to the insertion of the word “prevention” in clause 5 (1) although it appears in conjunction with the same words in clause 8 (4) (b). As the bill now stands, in some instances, the

Director of the Division of Tuberculosis will be able to take steps in relation to the prevention of this disease but not in others. If the Minister desires to preserve a piece of sloppy and ill-drafted legislation he will reject this amendment, but if he wants to put the drafting of the legislation in orderhe will accept it.

Amendment negatived.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 7 agreed to.

Clause 8 (Advisory Council).

Mr RYAN:
Flinders

.- I indicated my general objection to the terms of this clause in my second-reading speech. I propose to direct my attention now to the appointment of the chairman of the advisory council. I believe that the chairman should be the Director of the Division of Tuberculosis, and the Minister has said that that is the intention. However, sub-clause 2 says that the Director-General shall be the chairman of the council, and sub-clause 3 states that in the absence of the DirectorGeneral from any meeting of the council, a person nominated by him shall act as chairman. The clause does not state who shall be nominated by him. If it is intended that normally the chairman of the council shall be the Director of the Division of Tuberculosis, why is that not stated in the clause?

Mr. HOLLOWAY (Melbourne Ports-

Minister for Labour and National Service) [4.47]. - I am assured that what I have stated to the committee as to the chairman of the council is correct. I do not advocate old things merely because they are old, but, at the same time. I do not think it is wise to adopt something new merely because it is new. If a director-general or any other officer is put in charge of a department with many separate sections, each of which is controlled by an expert, it is not the practice in legislation to make the lesser officer the greater as far as administration is concerned. I do not contend that the officer who controls the whole of the department is more expert in one sphere than, say. the director of tuberculosis services, or the director of another specialized section of the department. It is normal to draft bills in this manner and to say that the director-general of a department shall do this and that. That does not mean that he can attend to all of those functions. FT.e never does.

Mr Abbott:

– Would the person nominated by the Director-General be the Director of the Division of Tuberculosis of the Commonwealth ?

Mr HOLLOWAY:
ALP

– That is what I

Min assured.

Mr Abbott:

– That is what the Minister thinks is right?

Mr HOLLOWAY:

– Yes. The honorable member for New England (Mr. Abbott) is going on to ask why the clause does not say so.

Mr Abbott:

– I may have something to say about it.

Mr HOLLOWAY:

– It is easy to read what is in the mind of the honorable gentleman, because he repeats it so often. [ am assured that the director of tuberculosis services will, because he is an expert in tuberculosis, be the chairman of the council when it is deaing with tuberculosis only. That is as it ought to be, but it does not mean that the bill should be re-drafted in such a way as would place some sectional expert over the director of the whole department.

Mr RYAN:
Flinders

.- The clause provides that the advisory council shall consist of a chairman and such other members, not exceeding eleven, as are appointed by the Governor-General. [ assume that most of them will be qualified mp dical men. and I should like to learn from the Minister how they are to he appointed.

Mr ABBOTT:
New England

– A little while ago, when I quoted a statement of the Minister (Mr. Holloway), he denied having made it, and imputed that my memory was at fault. Therefore, I have taken the trouble to write down exactly what he did say -on the subject of the appointment of the chairman of . the advisory council. The clause provides that the Director-General shall be chairman of the advisory council, and, in clause 4, the “ Director-General “ is defined as the Director-General of Health of the Commonwealth. There can be no doubt about the meaning of the clause. The Minister then made the remarkable statement that he had been assured that the director of tuberculosis services would be chairman of the advisory council.

Mr Holloway:

– I have not denied it.

Mr ABBOTT:

– The Minister added, “ I agree with that “. If he agrees with it, and if he spoke as a responsible Minister on behalf of the Government, why is he loath to agree to an amendment that would place the position beyond doubt? At an earlier stage, he said that subclause 3 of clause 8 provided that the Director of the’ Division of Tuberculosis should be chairman of the advisory council. That sub-clause reads as follows: -

In the absence of the Director-General from any meeting of the Council a person nominated by the Director-General shall act as chairman.

It, is clear that sub-clause 3 does not provide that the Director of the Division of Tuberculosis shall automatically become chairman of the council. The Minister said that he had been assured that this would be so. Well, I should like to know who gave him the assurance. Why should such an assurance be regarded as preferable to a specific provision in the act? Evidently, the Minister does not want the director of tuberculosis services to be chairman of the council, but he will not say why.

Mr HOLLOWAY:
Melbourne PortsMinister for Labour and National Service · ALP

– The honorable member for Flinders (Mr. Ryan) asked for information about the membership of the advisory council. The council will consist of the director of tuberculosis services of the Department of Health of the Commonwealth, and the directors of the six State divisions. Other members will be the specialist on tuberculosis in the service of the Repatriation Department, and such other experts as are available to bring the number up to eleven. When I answered the honorable member for Darwin (Dame Enid Lyons), 1 replied to the points raised by the honorable member for New England (Mr. Abbott) and I cannot add anything to what 1 then said. I hope the honorable member is satisfied.

Mr ANTHONY:
Richmond

.- Nowhere in this clause is. it provided that the advisory council shall be called together at. stated intervals. Sub-clause “> states -

The Council shall meet at Such times a.1/(1 places as are determined by the DirectorGeneral and notified by him to the members.

The initiative lies with the DirectorGeneral, who may call the council together once a month, or once a year, or not at all unless he so chooses. I shall not waste my time, and the time of the committee by moving an amendment unless the Minister indicates that he is prepared to accept it, but I suggest that subclause 5 should be amended to read as follows : -

The council shall meet at such times and places as are determined by the DirectorGeneral, and notified by him to members, not being less than once every twelve months. [f the Minister refuses to accept such an amendment, it will be apparent that there is little intention to utilize the services of the gentlemen who will be appointed to the council.

Mr HOLLOWAY:
Melbourne PortsMinister for Labour and National Service · ALP

– I hope that the council will meet much more frequently than once a year, but we should leave it to the experts themselves to decide whether they are to meet once a fortnight or once a month. All of them will be experts, who will be able and anxious to devote all their time to this kind of work.

Mr Anthony:

– Then why not fix the maximum interval between meetings?

Mr HOLLOWAY:

– I should not presume to do so.

Mr Anthony:

– That is our job as legislators.

Mr HOLLOWAY:

– The members of the council should know better than we

Ran how often, they ought to meet.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 9 - (1.) Subject to the next sub-section, allowances shall be payable to, or in respect of, sufferers from tuberculosis and their dependants . (2.) Allowances under the last preceding sub-section -

  1. shall be payable to such persons or classes of persons, subject to such conditions and in such manner as the Director-General, subject to the direction of the Minister, determines ;
Mr DAVIDSON:
Capricornia

. –This is one of the most important clauses in the bill because it provides for the payment of allowances to, or in respect of, sufferers from tuberculosis, and tq their dependants. Obviously, the Government cannot “state in a bill all it? intentions regarding matters of detail. Therefore, I should like to know from the Minister what the Government ha? in mind regarding the payment of allowances to married women receiving treatment for tuberculosis in hospitals and sanitoriums. In Queensland, such sufferers are not eligible to receive an invalid pension unless their husbands ariearning less than the basic wage, a happening which is very unlikely in these days. In such circumstances, the wife is apt to worry about her family and over the fact that her husband may be financially embarrassed. Paragraph c of subclause 1 states that allowances may be paid to promote the treatment, after-care and rehabilitation of sufferers from tuberculosis. In this respect, married women are unfavorably situated, a fact which is emphasized by the following extract from a letter which I received recently : - lit is when the married woman T.B. patient is I ready for discharge from hospital or sanatorium that the hardship is felt. Her medical adviser invariably orders her to lead a life of very restricted activity for a lon;: period of time, in many cases allowing hoi tol do no work at till. With the present high cost of living when almost every worker U finding it takes all his wages to “ make endmeet “, how is this woman to carry out he doctor’s i nnstruction s ? 1 1 suggest that an allowance should be paid to married women after their discharge so that they may be free from worry, and need not work for a considerable time, lt often happens that men. too, are unfit to return to their normal occupations for a considerable time after discharge, and it is difficult to find suitable alternative employment for them. A’s a result they worry over their financial position, and this may lead to a recurrence of their illness, so that they may have to return to hospital for further treatment. I should like to know what is the intention of the Government in regard to such cases.

Mr DUTHIE:
Wilmot

.- In the treatment of all the diseases that afflict mankind, the need for rest is most apparent in heart and tuberculosis cases. This clause is designed to relieve tuberculosis sufferers of the worry associated with having to continue to work, and to encourage them to rest. I regard as staggering the fact that between 30,000 and 40,000 persons in Australia suffer from tuberculosis. Among them are probably thousands who are not aware that the Government provides the financial assistance which is described in the clause. The Government, in endeavouring to encourage sufferers to refrain from working, and to undergo treatment, has provided certain financial assistance during the last two years, and I should like to enumerate the various benefits for the information of honorable members. Chey are as follows : -

Chose figures include the recent increase of the invalid pension, and child endowment. I should like the Minister for Labour and National Service (Mr. Holloway) to confirm my impression that the moment a doctor certifies that a person is suffering from tuberculosis, the patient is eligible to receive an invalid pension. The honorable member for Capricornia (Mr. Davidson) has asked the Minister to explain whether an infected wife is entitled to receive the whole or a percentage of the invalid pulsion if her husband is in employment. In my opinion, the Commonwealth should disregard the income of the husband in such circumstances, and pay the full invalid pension to the wife, especially if she happens to be a mother, in order to strengthen the economic position of the home during her illness. The whole conception of this form of assistance is that the sufferer shall not need to remain at work for a week, a month or two months when the disease has reached the stage at which it can be cured if he rests. This financial provision in the bill is most valuable, because it will encourage sufferers from tuberculosis to refrain from working, and undergo treatment. In the past, thebreadwinner, who has contracted tuberculosis, has frequently continued to work when he should have rested, because hehas feared that the economic position of the home would suffer while he was in a sanitorium. That fear has prevented hundreds of men, and probably women, from undergoing treatment when they should have done so. The purpose of this payment is also to minimize the spread of tuberculosis by enabling sufferers to be isolated. They need not come into contact with their workmates while they are undergoing treatment. Prompt treatment, and the adequate after-care and rehabilitation of sufferers from tuber>culosis are most worthy aims.

The machinery provisions of the bill will be carried out by the States on behalf of the Commonwealth. At that pointsome difficulty may arise. The Commonwealth has allocated an amount of £250,000 a year for the purposes to which I have referred, and payments will be made to the States, which will be responsible for examining, people in order to ascertain whether they have contracted tuberculosis, and for granting to sufferers the allowances in accordance with the provisions of this legislation. Everything will depend upon the thoroughness of the examinations. If the States are halfhearted in the matter, many persons suffering from tuberculosis will not receive the allowances to which they are entitled. Last year, the States expended only £140,000 of the allocation of £250,000. I wonder why only slightly more than one-half of the total amount which the Commonwealth provided was used when so many people are suffering from tuberculosis. Are the States making full use of this financial assistance which is so vital for the prevention and cure of tuberculosis? The bread-winner must be encouraged to rest from the moment he is certified as having contracted the disease. It behoves the State Departments of Health and Departments of Social Services to ensure that all sufferers from tuberculosis shall receive those payments. In 1946, the latest year for which details are available, tuberculosis was responsible for 27.6 per cent. of the deaths from all major individual causes among people between the ages of 20 and 39 years. Those figures show the urgent need to implement this plan, and to include the prompt payment of the special allowances.

The honorable member for Capricornia has referred to women who have been discharged from sanatoriums but who, on medical advice, must rest. Such a woman, particularly if she is a mother, becomes greatly worried if she has to try to carry out her domestic duties and also rest sufficiently in order to prevent a renewed attack of tuberculosis. I regret that we have not been able to arrange, by means of migrant or other labour, a domestic relief service for that specific purpose. Such a service would be a boon to mothers who have been discharged from sanatoriums and advised to rest at home for two or three months. What a great help it would be to them if such a service could be arranged through the State Departments of Health in the same way as the Postmaster-General’s Department has a staff of relieving officers. The expense of providing such domestic assistance should be borne wholly or in part by the Commonwealth. I realize that labour is so scarce that it may not be possible to implement my suggestion at the moment, but perhaps the scheme can be introduced at a later date when more domestic help may be available in Australia. The economic loss to the. nation, resulting from illness, is so great that any expense is worthwhile to restore workers as economic units in the community. It is a trite saying that we spend millions of pounds on killing people, and proportionately, only hundreds of pence on saving people’s lives. The plans which the Government envisages for combating tuberculosis are progressive, and I commend them whole-heartedly, particularly the financial provisions in the clause now under consideration.

Mr ABBOTT:
New England

– I move -

That, in sub-clause (2.), paragraph (a), the words. “ Director-General, subject to the direction of the Minister “ be left out, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the following words: - “Minister, subject to the advice of the Director-General,”’

The effect of the amendment would be that the Minister would be subject to the advice of the Director-General of Health in determining the conditions governing the payment of allowances. I submit the amendment because of the following words at the beginning of sub-clause 1 of clause 9 : -

Subject to the next sub-section, allowances shall be payable to, or in respect of, sufferers from tuberculosis and their dependants for the purposes of -

  1. encouraging such sufferers to refrain. from working and to undergo treatment ;

The person who should be in a position to say whether a patient should refrain from working or should undertake light duties, is the technical adviser to the Minister, and not the Minister. It is essential to the cure of tuberculosis, I understand that, at a certain stage of the disease, the sufferer should have complete rest. We all realize from what we have heard in th is debate and from what we have read about the disease that the cure does not progress steadily. The patient may make progress, and then suddenly have a relapse. One of the most important requirements for complete cure is for the patient to undertake light jobs as soon as he is capable of doing so.I have noted in the book Rehabili tating the Tuberculous, by Dr. F.R. G. Heaf, Senior Medical Officer, London County Council, Consulting Physician to Papworth Village Settlement, Cambridgeshire, and to the British Legion Sanatoria, and Dr. J. B. McDougall, Medical Director, British Legion Village Sanatoria, Preston Hall, Maidstone, Kent; Nayland. Colchester, Essex; and Douglas House, Bournemouth, Hampshire. Those physicians lay down the thesis that -

When the time comes for them to undertake exercise in one form or another, patients are in terviewed by a responsible medical officer, who apportions to each patient, in accordance with his previous experience and inclinations, Chat type of work which is suited to his physical condition.

Doctors Heaf and McDougall point out [bat whilst the patients cannot do heavy manual work, they are capable of doing certain types of work, particularly printing at a certain stage in the cure of the disease. Such occupations are beneficial to the patient. The mental relaxation, the pride in the work and the knowledge that he is able to do work, helps a man to make a complete recovery. The point which I am making is that sub-clause 1 » of clause 9 provides that allowances shall be payable to sufferers from tuberculosis and their dependants for the purposes of encouraging the patients to refrain from working. But doctors may have to encourage some patients to work as a part of their cure. The Minister should determine the matter on the advice of the Director-General instead of it being the other way round. The technical man is the man to give the advice. If my amendment were accepted, the task of the Minister would be easier, because, as long as he has to accept the advice of his Director-General, no suggestion can be made that political reasons have entered into the payment of allowances. £ hope the Minister will accept the amendment. I know that he will not do so because he is obstinate and has refused to accept all our other amendments. Perhaps, if he is not prepared to accept it now, he will have a good look at it with a view to accepting it later.

Mr HOLLOWAY:
Melbourne PortsMinister for Labour and National Service · ALP

– I desire to reply briefly to the points raised by the honorable member for Capricornia (Mr. Davidson) and the honorable member for Wilmot (Mr. Duthie). What I shall say will also cover the remarks of the honorable member for New England (Mr. Abbott). It is pleasing that honorable members agree that the basis of the problem of treatment of sufferers from tuberculosis is economic. I assure the honorable member for Capricornia, who stated a good case for the payment of special allowance to tuberculous people in addition to an invalid pension, that the bill provides for that to he done, f agree with the honorable member that a person while recuperating may be able to undertake a certain amount of work which would not return him sufficient income and that he, too, would need a special allowance. That is provided for in the bill. We agree that special allowances must be paid to people who suffer from the disease and that the allowance must not be diminished on account of any social service benefits that they may be drawing. The honorable member for Capricornia and the honorable member for Wilmot stressed that people suffering from tuberculosis must not be compelled to work at injurious callings that perhaps caused them to become tainted. He also said that they should not be required, to work in heavy industries, but agreed that perhaps light work would be beneficial to some of them. Such persons will be paid the special allowance when unable to work at all and a sufficient allowance to make up the difference between income that they may receive from light work and a living wage. The honorable member for New England said that the technical expert should advise the Minister rather than that the Minister should advise the technical expert on allowances to be payable to, or in respect of. sufferers from tuberculosis and their dependants. I think the honorable member will agree that that must be the way in which the provision will be administered. From time to time, the Minister for Health will place before the Cabinet proposed amendments of the Tuberculosis Act that will be based upon advice from experts. It is because the Cabinet will make the final decision that the clause is- worded as it is. Decisions will be based on the advice of men who know for how long allowances should be paid and at what rate they should be paid.

Mr Abbott:

– And the type of work that may be done.

Mr HOLLOWAY:

– Yes, and whether sufferers should work at all. We have retained the right to make some payments directly to people instead of through the States. We think we may waste money by. half doing the job of tackling this problem and that we can save it by doing it properly. The Treasurer (Mr. Chifley) is heart and soul behind the measure and there is no limit to how much he will agree to spend if he is satisfied that the money is being well spent. I am not obstinate, in spite of what the honorable member for New England thinks, but this is not my bill. [ am sure that the safeguards desired by the honorable member are contained in the measure.Therefore the amendment cannot be accepted.

Amendment negatived.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 10 to 12 agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment; report adopted.

Bill - by leave - read a third time.

page 3111

COMMONWEALTH EMPLOYEES’ COMPENSATION BILL 1948

Mr BEALE:

– I desire to make a personal explanation. In the debate on the Commonwealth Employees’ Compensation Bill yesterday, I made certain remarks about what are known as de facto wives. Honorable members will remember what those remarks were. But the Sydney Morning Herald to-day contains a partial report of what I said. It gives a false impression of what I did say. I do not suggest that the report was anything less than a truncated report made in good faith, but I inform the Souse and the country that what was conveyed in the report was not accurate. The Sydney Morning Herald published the following report: -

Mr. Howard Beale (Liberal, New South Wales), said, during the committee stages, that Parliament must decide how far it was prepared to go with respect to de facto wives. There were cases in which a woman was dependent upon a man as the result of a union, which, though not legal, was honorable. He did not believe that because a union had not been sanctioned by State or Church a woman should be debarred from all benefits.

Standing alone, the report obviously could be read as indicating that I supported the general principle of maintenance benefits for de facto wives. What I did say was this -

I do not want to be captious about this, but it is necessary, as a matter of principle, that something should be said as to how far Parliament ought to go in dealing with cases of this sort. I realize that there are instances in which a woman, who haslived permanently witha man upon a basis which, although not legal, is at least honorable in the sense that it is bona fide and permanent, should not be excluded from benefits. I do not hold the view that merely because a union has not received the official sanction of the State or a church, the dependant of such a union should be denied all benefits; but inthis provision the Government is going a long way, and proposes to take a step to which I think the Parliament should have its attention directed.

I made some further remarks to that effect and went on to say -

In this legislation, which will be quoted as a precedent when later legislation is under consideration, we should make up our minds just how far we are prepared to go to give effect to this principle. After all, the bona fide home of a bona fide marriage is the basis of our community life. Every piece of legislation which relaxes that basis makes it easier for people to live in a looser way. Although, out of the kindness of our hearts, we may desire to grant benefits to some unfortunate women, every departure from the basic principle of a legal union strikes a blow at the community as a whole.

I concluded thus -

Whilst I am not prepared to vote against the clause because of the inclusion of this somewhat confusing definition of “ member of the family “, it is my duty, as well at that of other honorable members, to draw the attention of the Parliament and the country to the limit to which, on theground of sentiment, we should be prepared to goin a direction which I believe will ultimately be injurious to the family unit.

In a subsequent stage in committee, in answer to the Minister for PostwarReconstruction, I reaffirmed that view and said that the only reason why I was not prepared to vote against the clause was that it was hedged around with a great many safeguards and qualifications that seemed to me to take it out of the ordinary principle. I do not say that the report was a deliberate attempt to mislead. It is an instance in which the making of a necessarily brief report created a false impression.

Mr Dedman:

– The honorable member is squaring off.

Mr BEALE:

– I am being very clear, because I feel warmly on legislation of this type.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– Order ! The honorable member is not entitled to debate this matter further.

Mr BEALE:

– I conclude by saying that I do not blame any one, but, because of a truncated report, a wrong impression has been given which should be corrected.

page 3112

STATES GRANTS (ADMINISTRATION OF CONTROLS REIMBURSEMENT) BILL 1948

Second Reading

Debate resumed from the 22nd October (vide page 2044), on motion by Mr. Chifley -

That the hill be now read a second time.

Mr FADDEN:
Darling DownsLeader of the Australian Country party

– The bill is not so innocent or simple as it looks. A thorough examination, and consideration of the measure reveal certain underlying principles that should not be overlooked so far as the sovereignty of the States is concerned. The bill follows the pattern laid down by the Treasurer (Mr. Chifley) on uniform tax legislation. It is another step in the direction of making the States financially dependent upon his whim. If the States do exactly what he requires of them and carry out the policy determined at Canberra, they will receive financial handouts; if they do not, they will get nothing. Clause 3 provides - (1.) There shall be payable to each State, for the purposes of financial assistance towards the cost of administering prices, rents and land sales controls in that State during the financial year which commenced on the first day of July, One thousand nine hundred and forty-eight, such amount as is determined in accordance with the provisions of this Act. (2.) Payment of any amount to a State under this Act shall be subject to the condition that if the total of the amounts paid to the State in pursuance of section four of this Act exceeds the amount determined by the Treasurer in pursuance of section six of this Act, the amount of the excess shall be repaid by this State to the Commonwealth.

Clause 4 provides -

The Treasurer may, at such times as he thinks fit, make advances of such amounts as he thinks fit to a State on account of the total amount payable to that State under thic Act.

Clause 5 states - ( 1 .) The Premier of each State shall, as soon as possible after the thirtieth day of June, One thousand nine hundred and forty-nine, forward to the Treasurer a statement, duly certified by the Auditor-General of that State, netting out the amount actually expended by that State in administering prices, rents and land sales controls during ‘the financial year which commenced on the first day of July, One thousand nine hundred and forty-eight. (2.) The Treasurer may disallow any item oi expenditure set out in a statement forwarded to him in pursuance of the last preceding sub-section.

Clause 6 provides that the Treasurer may pay such further amounts to any State as he may determine, and clause 7 states that payments in accordance with this measure shall be made out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund. It will be seen, therefore, that the Parliament is being asked to give the Treasurer blanket approval to pay to the States that he nominates whatever amounts he thinks fit from the Consolidated Revenue Fund. No State is guaranteed a single penny by this bill. By the inter-operation of clauses 4, 5 and 6, the Treasurer can cut one or all of the States off without even the proverbial shilling. If one State refused to fall into line on a matter of policy, the Treasurer could quite legally disallow all items of expenditure in the statement submitted by that State under clause 5 (2) of the bill, and no money would need to be paid to it. Thus, he could use the thumb screw of financial pressure to coerce a State into carrying out economicpolicy under a master plan that was laid down by him. As a matter of fact, the right honorable gentleman has already done that for several years under the uniform taxation scheme, and this bill gives him similar opportunities in regard to prices, rents, and land sales controls. The principles underlying this scheme must be considered in conjunction with the Statute of Westminster, which has been passed by the Imperial ParliamentSection 9* (1) of that statute reads as follows : -

Nothing in this Act shall be deemed tiauthorize the Parliament of the Commonwealth of Australia to make laws on any matter within the authority of the States of Australia not being a matter within the authority of the Parliament or Government of the Commonwealth of Australia.

That section was designed to preserve the sovereignty of the States of Australia against encroachment by the Commonwealth, but this bill attempts, by backdoor methods, to encroach upon those sovereign rights. For instance, land sales control is now subject to State and not Commonwealth law. As long as the States continue to exercise land sale.control in accordance with the economic plans of the Treasurer they will continue to receive a financial handout from him, but let them alter the economic basis of the control, or substantially alter its terms, and see how they fare! The Treasurer’s displeasure would doubtless be swiftly translated into financial reprisals by denying them grants under this measure. That is a dangerous weapon to put into the hands of this Government on the pretence of financial consideration for the States, which have relieved it of a great deal of the cost of the administration of the various controls that must be maintained. By exercising financial pressure, the Treasurer is able, virtually, to dictate State policy. The rule of law as expressed in the Constitution, and as guaranteed by the Statute of Westminster, is sidestepped. Parliament is asked to give unconditional approval to the appropriation from the Consolidated Revenue Fund of an unspecified amount of money, which is to be distributed or not, as the Treasurer thinks fit, to the State or States which he alone determines. The conditions under which they shall or shall not receive the money are also to be determined only by the right honorable gentleman. Before approval is given to this measure a schedule should be incorporated in it guaranteeing to each State the right to receive at least a minimum reimbursement of the cost of administration of its controls. That amount could easily be ascertained. Such a provision would preserve to the States some measure of independence and protect them from the arbitrary powers that the Treasurer seeks to assume by this measure. Important financial relationships between the States and the Australian Government are affected by this bill, which is not so simple and innocent as ite seven clauses would lead one to believe.

Mr DEDMAN:
Minister for Defence, Minister for Post-war Reconstruction and Minister in charge of the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research · Corio · ALP

.- There is not much to be said in reply to the observations on this bill that were made by the Leader of the Australian Country party (Mr. Fadden). The right honorable gentleman took advantage of this opportunity to attack the uniform taxation system.

[104

He said that the Treasurer was, by meant of this bill, seeking to pursue the same policy in relation to prices, rents and land sales controls as he has done in relati,bn to uniform taxation and that by financial pressure he was endeavouring to control something which the Commonwealth had no constitutional authority to control. If the right honorable gentleman is advancing the argument that this measure is similar to the legislation dealing with uniform taxation and if he is contending that that is a bad thing for ti e country, he will find it difficult to convince the Australian people of the soundeness of his argument. He suggested that this is a curtailment of the sovereign rights of the States.

Mr Fadden:

– I said that it was an interference with them.

Mr DEDMAN:

– I do not mind what word the Leader of the Australian Country party chose to use. A curtailment or an interference seems to me to bq much the same thing. The righthonorable gentleman apparently sets himself up as a champion of State rights. The fact of the matter is that this matter was considered at a conference of Commonwealth and State Ministers. At that conference not one of the State Premiers raised this question, though they are, one can well imagine, very concerned with the preservation of the sovereign rights of the States that they represent. We may assume, therefore, that there is nothing in that argument. To accept that there is something in it would be to say that at the conference at which this matter was considered the State Premiers did not do their duty to their States or to the parliaments to which they are responsible. There is. no obligation on the Australian Government to meet this expenditure.

Mr Fadden:

– There is a moral obligation.

Mr DEDMAN:

– There is not even a moral obligation. The Australian Government recognized that, in the interests of the stability of our economy, it was necessary to continue at least some of the controls that it exercised during the war period but which, owing to the result of thi* referendum on rents and prices and to thi constitutional position, it is no longer itself able to exercise. It is clear that the obligation to continue those controls rests upon the .State governments, if they consider it desirable to do so, and that there is no obligation whatever upon the Australian Government to meet the cost of their administration. But because the Australian Government recognized that the continuance of the controls was necessary to the maintenance of the stability of our economy it offered at the conference, by means of the methods outlined in this bill, to refund, to the States the expenses of the administration of the controls. Even if that refund were not made, the States would find it necessary, for the welfare of their own people, to continue at any rate some of the controls. The stronger States would pay for them from their own revenue. It is true that with regard to the weaker States, that is, those who are the recipients of benefits under the States grants acts which have been passed from time to time and with which the next item on the notice-paper deals, the Australian Government would have to pay the cost of the administration of those controls, but there would be no such obligation in respect of the other States. However, recognizing the need for the maintenance of the stability of our economy, the Treasurer made this proposal to the State Premiers at the conference, and it was accepted with great appreciation by the Premiers of all the States. In those circumstances there is nothing in the objections which have been raised by the Leader of the Australian Country party.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time, and passed through its remaining .stages without amendment or debate.

page 3114

STATES GRANTS BILL 1948

Second Reading

Debate resumed from the Srd November (vide page 2419), on motion by Mr. Chifley -

That the bill be now read a second time.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time, and passed through its remaining stages without amendment or debate.

page 3114

AUDIT BILL 1948

Second Reading

Debate resumed from the 5th October (vide page 1124), on motion by Mr. Dedman -

That the bill be now read a second time.

Mr FADDEN:
Darling DownsLeader of the Australian Country party

– The comprehensive review of the provisions of tie Audit Act contemplated in this bill is obviously the result of recommendations made by the AuditorGeneral and referred to in his last two reports to the Parliament. His predecessor also pointed out that some of the provisions of the Audit Act had been found by experience to be unsatisfactory or ineffective. As the Auditor-General is a responsible officer charged with important duties concerning the correctness or otherwise of Commonwealth finances, his observations must necessarily be given due weight. According to the Minister’s second-reading speech, it was found necessary in 1945 to give the AuditorGeneral more complete access to accounts, books, documents and papers relating to expenditure. Additional powers of access were given to the Auditor-General by National Security Regulation 136. The provisions of that regulation are now tobe continued by an appropriate amendment of the Audit Act. According to the Minister, it is proposed to include specificprovisions in the act to make it clear, beyond any reasonable doubt, that the Auditor-General is responsible for the audit of all accounts of the revenue, expenditure and stores of the Commonwealth. In such circumstances, it is at least unusual that the Auditor-General and his officers should still be denied access to income tax data which they consider are essential to enable them to complete the audit of the accounts of any particular instrumentality. In consequence of this denial, the Auditor-General in paragraph 31 of his report for the year ended the 30th June, 1947, states that it has not been possible in the past, and it will not be possible in the future, for him to carry out an effective audit of income tax revenue. After indicating the necessity for an early revision of the Audit Act the Auditor-General says that, included among the suggestions submitted by him to the Treasury for consideration was a proposal that the act should he amended to confer upon him the right of access to all income tax assessment papers. He further urged that such an amendment of the act should be worded so as to ensure that the power would not be overridden by any future provision of the Income Tax Assessment Act. Why has this recommendation of the AuditorGeneral been rejected by the Government? The Audit Act is worse than useless unless it makes the AuditorGeneral responsible for an effective audit of all Commonwealth revenue accounts. Income tax assessments should be subject to exactly the same audit principles as are applied to other revenue. I should hope that the Auditor-General is at least as responsible an officer as, say, the Commissioner for Maternity Allowances, the Prices Commissioner, the DirectorGeneral of Health, or the secretaries of the department. »»f Defence, Navy, Army and Air. Every one of these individuals has access to income tax files for his official purposes, yet the Auditor-General is refused similar access for the very important purpose of carrying out an effective audit. If the Government has any explanation to offer for this extraordinary anomaly, it should be forthcoming.

My second objection to this bill relates to the additional power proposed to be given to the Treasurer under clause 36, which will enable him to direct the closure of a trust account and to pay any money standing to the credit of such a trust account to the Consolidated Revenue Fund, except to the extent that it may have been appropriated out of the loan fund. According to the last budget papers, there were well over a hundred trust accounts in existence at the 30th Tune, 1948, and the balances of those accounts amounted to just under £200,000,000. Under section 4 of the National Welfare Fund Act that fund was declared to be a trust account for the purposes of section 62a of the Audit Act. I do not wish to repeat what I have previously said in this House regarding the replacement of the cash balance in the National Welfare Fund by treasurybills. However, it appears that under this bill a Treasurer, if he so desired, or if he found it difficult to raise the necessary cash for replacement of the £69,800,000 worth of treasury-bills now in that fund, could readily close the fund and thus relieve himself of his financial responsibility. Before a Treasurer should be allowed to close any trust account and transfer the balance to Consolidated Revenue he should obtain parliamentary sanction for so doing. 1 should like to see a provision that effect inserted in this bill.

A third matter to which attention should be drawn is the provisions -in clauses 15, 16, 2S, 33, and 35 which give the Treasurer certain powers previously exercised by the Governor-General. Theoretically, that is an important delegation of authority by the King’s representative in Australia to one of his Executive Ministers. In practice, however, it would not be quite so important except for the fact that clause 39 allows the Treasurer himself, by writing under hi9 hand, to delegate all or any of his powers and functions under the Audit Act. That constitutes a dangerous departure from the settled principle of control. Taking these clauses in conjunction it is obvious that powers, which in the past were exercisable only by the GovernorGeneral, will now become exercisable, through the Treasurer’s power of delegation, by minor officials or even clerks in the Department of the Treasury. It is very dangerous to allow minor executive officials such authority, as it is from that source that the bureaucrat springs. The sooner we clip the wings of the Executive and restore to the Parliament its proper legislative sphere, the better it will be. In his book, The New Despotism. Lord Hewart scathingly criticized the unwarranted exercise of authority by Executive officers. Executive officers are very loath to surrender the enormous powers given to them during the war.

I register my emphatic protest against the clauses of this bill which appear to extend bureaucratic authority in the manner I have mentioned.

Exception must also be taken to clause

II of the bill which deals with the investment of moneys in the Commonwealth public account. It indicates that revenue may be dealt with under section 62b of the Audit Act which gives the Treasurer authority to invest revenue receipts in Commonwealth loans or other Government securities. Revenue invested in loans in that way, and unduly used for’ capital works and other purposes mean9 that the present generation of taxpayers is paying heavy taxation in order to provide permanent capital assets of which future generations should in equity bear a share of the cost. More than once attention has been drawn to the use of revenue for capital purposes. For instance, the advance from revenue of £2,200,000 for the establishment of the Australian National Airlines Commission, and the provision of £900,000 of capital for Qantas and Tasman Empire Airways are instances of this type of finance. An extension of the principle, as contemplated in this bill, must necessarily keep taxation at an unduly high level.

There is a still more serious matter, however, in connexion with the operation of clause 11. Section 5 of the States Grants Act 1927-1934, which is still in operation, compels the Treasurer to pay to the States any surplus revenue in his hands at the close of each financial year. Section 7 of that act automatically appropriates such surpluses out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund. If the Treasurer intends to override the provisions of the States Grants Acts to which I have referred by the enactment of clause 11 of the present bill, he should make a definite statement to that effect and let the States know where they stand. The States would then be under no misapprehension about his intention that the Surplus Revenue Act shall henceforth be a dead letter. If the Treasurer has no such intention, what is the reason for the insertion of clause 11 in this bill? A perusal of Treasury statements issued towards the close of last financial year indicated the probability that there would be a large revenue surplus at the 30th June. That was the direct result of a revenue buoyancy far above anticipations. However, by the close of the year, the promised surplus dwindled almost magically to a mere £1,500,000.

Although the result enabled the Treasurer to boast that he had balanced his budget, it left little or no surplus to be distributed amongst the States as required by law. No doubt history will repeat itself this year. “With continued over-heavy taxation a relatively large surplus can be expected. The provision of clause 11 of this legislation could then be brought into operation very conveniently, and the requirement of the States Grants Act compelling payment of surplus revenue to the States could readily be defeated by this subsequent legislation. In these circumstances the present bill may not be so innocuous as it appears to be at first glance. If this is merely a machinery measure designed to bring receipts and expenditure to account under a uniform practice, the Treasurer, or the Minister in charge of the bill should clarify the matter either by amending the bill to overcome my objections or by indicating that he will consider amendments to remove the obnoxious clauses which I have criticized and the inconsistency in the existing legislation covering grants to the States. However, it is a waste of time for me or for Opposition members generally to attempt to improve legislation brought before this House, as the Government invariably refuses to accept amendments in any circumstances. Notwithstanding that, I submit these observations in the earnest hope that the Government will agree to amend the bill in the manner I have suggested.

Sitting suspended from 6.S to 8 p.m.

Mr LANG:
Reid

.- This bill provided the Government with an opportunity to review the functions and status of the Auditor-General. The duties of that officer grow more extensive every day, and he should enjoy the status of a High Court judge. The recommendations of the AuditorGeneral should receive the careful attention of the Parliament, and his reports should be the property of the House. He should have direct access to the Parliament itself. He should be answerable to the Parliament, and not to the Executive, upon whose administration he is required to report. Therefore, the bill should have been accompanied by a copy of the Auditor-General’s recommendations in which he suggested a revision of the Audit Act. In his report for 1947, which was tabled early this year, the Auditor-General stated that he had forwarded certain recommendations to the Treasurer (Mr. Chifley) regarding the amendment of the Audit Act. He further stated that certain provisions of the act had been found by experience to be unsatisfactory and ineffective. In order that the House should give proper consideration to the recommendations of this responsible officer, the recommendations should have been tabled. Honorable members would then have known which of the Auditor-General’s recommendations had been accepted by the Government, and which had been rejected. As it is honorable members are being called upon to discuss the bill in the dark. They have been given no essential information. The Treasurer has suppressed the memorandum which the Government received from the Auditor-General. Australia’s budget provides for the collection and expenditure of a huge amount of money every year, and if audit safeguards are not satisfactory the way is open for graft and corruption. Before the war, the Government had a comparatively small interest in business undertakings other than the Post Office, the Commonwealth Railways, the Commonwealth Bank and Amalgamated Wireless (Australasia) Limited. In 1939, Commonwealth revenue was only about £95,000,000; to-day, it is about £500,000,000. Moreover, the Commonwealth has an interest in many big business undertakings such as TransAustralia Airlines, British Commonwealth Pacific Airlines, Qantas Empire Airways, and the Overseas Telecommunications Commission. The Government now negotiates wheat deals such as that with New Zealand. It pays out huge . subsidies, and underwrites State housing projects. It has disposed of more than £100,000,000 worth of property through the Commonwealth Disposals Commission. All those transactions call for a careful audit. If such undertakings were the responsibility of private companies the report of the auditors would be very carefully considered by the directors, and it is no less the duty of the Government to consider with care the report and recommendations of the Auditor-General.

In paragraph 31 of his report for the year ended the 30th June, 1947, the Auditor-General disclosed one request which he had made to the Treasurer,, namely, that the Audit Act should beamended to confer upon him the right of access to income tax assessment papers. At the present time, the Auditor-General is denied that right. The only possible justification for such denial is that income tax papers are regarded by the Government as sacrosanct, but are they? They may be examined by many official “ sticky-beaks “, but not by the AuditorGeneral, who has justifiable grounds for examining them. During this very session of the Parliament, the Government has introduced legislation providing that income tax papers should be available for examination by officers of the Universities Commission. The employees of the commission are only temporary public officers, and there is no evidence that they are specially fitted for the task of examining taxation papers. They may leave the employment of the Universities Commission without notice. On the other hand, the staff of the AuditorGeneral are permanent and responsible officers selected from the Public Service, and “who may be trusted with confidential information; yet the Government is prepared to make confidential taxation information available to temporary officers of the Universities Commission, but not to permanent officers on the staff of the Auditor-General. Even if the AuditorGeneral himself desired to investigate the affairs of a large combine he would not have, access to taxation returns. If he had doubts about the collection of income tax he could not have access to the returns. At present, there is no independent audit of income tax receipts, so that the Auditor-General is not invested with proper powers of audit. How can the Auditor-General certify that the revenue of the Commonwealth of Australia is correct? How can he certify that the statements of the Treasurer regarding the income due to the Commonwealth are correct if he is denied access to income tax assessments and receipts? The AuditorGeneral has said that, under the existing arrangement, the Audit Act cannot be complied with, and no more serious statement could be made by a responsible officer. It is estimated that direct taxation will this year yield £278,000,000. That money is being dealt with without an effective audit.” It should be the duty of the Auditor-General to examine income tax assessments, and to make a check when he considers it to be necessary so to do. The Auditor-General should be held responsible for the effective audit of income tax receipts, as well as of every other item of Government revenue and expenditure. He is the Auditor-General of the Commonwealth and should enjoy the right of access to the records of every penny of income and expenditure. He has asked for this power, but it is not being given to him. Why has it been refused? The Auditor-General has certain legal responsibilities, but he is not clothed with the legal authority to discharge them. The attention of the Government has been directed to this anomaly, but it has neither replied to the comment of the Auditor-General, nor taken any action to accede to his request. His position is being undermined by the Government. The Treasurer should explain why the Government has refused to give effect to the Auditor-General’s recommendation in the legislation now before the House. Although it might appear at first glance that proposed new section 14b confers full authority upon the Auditor-General, the Treasurer has stated that, in the opinion of the SolicitorGeneral, the Income Tax Assessment Act will not permit the Commissioner of Taxation to disclose to the AuditorGeneral information regarding assessments. That position should be remedied.

I come now to proposed new section 70 b. Although it touches a matter which might be regarded as entirely distinct from the Audit Act, the Government apparently .believes that this is an appropriate place to insert a provision clothing itself with authority to guarantee the Commonwealth Rank for loans advanced by the bank to private persons. I draw the attention of the House and of the country to the fact that proposed new section 70b is a most unusual one. Not only does it provide for future happenings, but it also has a retrospective effect. It provides that if the Treasurer has, in the past, guaranteed loans by the bank to private persons, such guarantee shall be regarded as legal. The implication is that, at the time certain guarantees were given, the action was not legal. I maintain that it is not sufficient that the Treasurer should indicate that he is prepared to guarantee a loan. Both the bank and the Treasurer should be satisfied that the purposes of the loan fall within the requirements of the Constitution. The proposed new section could be employed as a cover for the Government embarking upon the wholesale subsidizing of private industry. No protective provisions have been included, and no limit is imposed on the interest to be paid. The Commonwealth Bank is to be given blanket protection completely and absolutely. A person or company to which the Government has given a guarantee need not have any direct business relations with the Commonwealth Bank, and that institution need not be satisfied that the person or company is a good business risk. It is fully covered by the guarantee, and will look to the Government solely for its protection. There would be considerable merit in proposed new section 70b if the Treasurer were required to obtain the certificate of the Auditor-General that the purposes of the loan were in accordance with the constitutional powers of the Commonwealth before he, on behalf of the Commonwealth, gave any guarantee, or alternatively, if the Auditor-General had the power to refer the matter to this Parliament with his comments for a direction. It will be of no use to this Parliament if some one discovers after a loan has been made that the Treasurer did not have the power to give such a guarantee. Much will depend on the finding of the Privy Council in the Banking case in defining the purposes of of the Commonwealth, as expressed in this proposed new section. Tor example, the Commonwealth could guarantee a loan for the purchase of cement-making plant in the “United States of America. The Treasurer need not make any inquiries into the antecedents of the persons seeking the loan. They could even be “ crooks “. The money could be dissipated and wasted. The proposition could be a wildcat scheme, but the Government would have to meet all liabilities in connexion with the loan.

During the war, the Commonwealth gave guarantees to the Commonwealth Bank in respect of a guarantee on the overdraft of Waddingtons Proprietary Limited, a motor body building firm, of Sydney. There may have been an excellent reason for giving such a guarantee at that particular time. No doubt Waddingtons held important defence contracts. However, the firm was operating almost without any capital on an overdraft of £100,000. The private guarantors had indicated that they were not prepared to carry “Waddingtons any longer, and the Commonwealth offered to take over the liability and guarantee the overdraft. That was a novel departure in governmental finance. According to information which the Treasurer has supplied to me in answer to questions, the total subscribed capital of the company was only £308. There were 248 £1 preference shares held by Mr. and Mrs. Waddington, and 60 ordinary £1 shares, of which the Waddingtons held 35 and the guarantors 25. The Commonwealth took over the 25 shares, and the Waddingtons also agreed to transfer an additional six shares, giving the Commonwealth a majority in respect of voting power. Therefore, in capital, the Commonwealth had £31 invested in the company, and guaranteed its overdraft for £100,000.

Mr Burke:

– What were the assets of the company?

Mr LANG:

– The assets of the company were valued at £325,000. According to the Treasurer, the company was financed by bank overdraft and other sources. That remarkable agreement provided that five of the Commonwealth’s shares should be converted into what were called deferred shares. Those deferred shares had the right to all profits after the company had paid a dividend of 8 per cent, on its preference shares and an amount of £3,000 on its 55 ordinary shares as well as the initial dividend on its deferred shares. So, for each £1 ordinary share, a dividend of £50 was allocated.. That was the basis on which the Government guaranteed the overdraft to the Commonwealth Bank. I draw attention to the little item of 5,000 per cent, interest payable on the capita] invested in the com pany. The Waddingtons had the right at any time to re-purchase the 31 ordinary shares from the Commonwealth, provided they were able to obtain the necessary finance to relieve the Commonwealth of its guarantees. Of course, it must be remembered that that re-purchase would be governed to a large degree by the Advisory Committee on Capital Issues.

The arrangement lasted from 1942 until 1.946. During that period, the Commonwealth drew dividends amounting to £96.992 on its 31 shares, or £3,336 for every £1 share held in the company, in return for its guarantee to the Commonwealth Bank, which, no doubt, received interest on its overdraft. According to the Treasurer, the Waddingtons received a total of £100,624 in the period of four years to which I have referred. During the same period, the Commonwealth was the company’s principal customer, and the profits were coming out of Commonwealth contracts. In 1946, the company was re-constituted as the Commonwealth Engineering Company Limited, with a nominal capital of £500,000 and a paid-up capital of £300,000. Of that amount, the Commonwealth holding now is £163,200 invested, whilst other shareholders, including the Waddingtons, hold £136,800. Under the arrangement, the Commonwealth was required to pay to Mr. and Mrs. Waddington the sum of £70,000 for their rights and interest in the old company, represented by a shareholding of £277 in it. Mr. Waddington, who had a service agreement with the old company as assistant manager, is now a director of the company. There are three directors representing the Commonwealth - Mr. Chancellor, of Flack and Flack, Mr. W. Scott, a consulting accountant, and Mr. G. H. Watson. The directors divide £1,500 a year among themselves. The company has been most successful, and the Commonwealth is drawing substantial dividends from its investment.

Once this principle is accepted, where are we going to stop? Nothing was known about the Waddington deal until long after it was an accomplished fact. The Commonwealth has invested a large amount of public money in what is virtually a private company. It appoints private businessmen as its representatives. Suck a company must have considerable advantages oyer its competitors. If those competitors are small businesses, the advantages are all the more unfair. What is there to stop any government from backing any private business under similar terms? The Waddingtons did very well under the arrangement. They began by being financially embarrassed. They ended with an embarrassment of riches. The Treasurer has stated that it is not the intention of the Government to nationalize pie stalls or ice-cream parlours. But there appears to be nothing to prevent the right honorable gentleman from” giving the Commonwealth Bank a guarantee for loans issued to the proprietors of coffee stalls and ice-cream parlours. Is this to be a new financial technique? If so, it leaves the door open to all kinds of abuses. If the Government desires to erect a public building, it refers the proposal to the Public Works Committee. That body investigates all the facts and then submits a recommendation to this Parliament. But, if the Government desires to back a private enterprise, the Treasurer .can merely telephone the Commonwealth Bank and state that he is prepared to guarantee the venture. No public inquiry is held, and no safeguards are provided.

If that system is to be the new financial technique, Canberra will become the happy hunting ground for every go-getter in the Commonwealth. Every one with a speculative proposition will find the Treasurer’s door wide open. Instead of going on the open market, the speculator will simply cut the Government in on the deal. There will be a new kind of lobbying in Canberra. The Alderman, will have a completely new field for their endeavours. If the Government is to give guarantees to private business, it should provide a proper system of checks. If outsiders are to be employed as the representatives of the Government, we shall have an extension of government patronage in an entirely new field. If the companies make losses, the taxpayers will have to shoulder the financial burden. Precedents which were established because of war-time needs are not necessarily justified in the peace-time organization of industry. Honorable members have heard a good deal about the success achieved by Amalgamated. Wireless (Australasia) Limited. But that organization had a monopoly of overseas telegraphic communications. It was operating a public utility, that was also a monopoly. Those conditions do not apply to these other industries. The function of government is to govern, not to meddle in every tin-pot business in the community. If it does so we shall find it being forced to give preference to the firms that it has guaranteed. That will penalize the firms that are struggling along without government assistance. While Commonwealth Engineering Company Limited or Waddingtons is the brilliant success story, we must not forget the other more dismal aspect either. National Oil Proprietary Limited is the grim side of the picture. According to the last Auditor-General’s report, the liabilities of that company al the 31st December, 1946, amounted to £4,245,429, of which £2,632,506 represented loans from the Commonwealth. Fixed assets were shown at £1,594,073 and accumulated losses at £2,005,673. Since then the Commonwealth has made further substantial cash advances to the losing proposition, bringing its liability up to more than £3,500,000. Instead of attempting to wangle this clause through in an audit bill without adequate explanation, the Government should introduce a properly constructed and comprehensive measure providing all the necessary safeguards. The Auditor-General should be given specific powers and specific responsibilities. This is a most important matter striking right at the fundamentals of public administration. The Auditor-General should be invited to submit a full memorandum on the subject to this House. It is one matter that every party in the House should desire to have properly examined by a committee of this House.

Mr CHIFLEY:
Prime Minister and Treasurer · Macquarie · ALP

– It is necessary for me to make a few remarks about this bill, which, as was explained by the Minister for Post-war Reconstruction (Mr. Dedman) in his secondreading speech, was the subject of long consideration before it was introduced. With the exception of one or two minor amendments, the Audit Act has not been amended since 1920. All governments that have come and gone since then have chosen to “allow the act to remain outmoded. The task of bringing it up to date has been very great. I rose to make it clear to honorable members that the bill was drafted in consultation with the Auditor-General, Mr. Joyce, himself. It has been in the course of preparation for a couple of years. The Auditor-General was previously deputy to the Secretary to the Treasury, Mr. McFarlane, and in that position had the opportunity of seeing the defects in the act. When he became Auditor-General, he brought to his new position a rich knowledge of Treasury work. Consultations between him and the Government on the amending of the act continued almost without a break from the time of his appointment until the introduction of the bill.

The honorable member for Reid (Mr. Lang) referred to the report of the Auditor-General in which that officer suggested that he should be given access to the files of the Taxation Branch. The Government, merely because of the physical impossibility of acceding to his request, has not seen fit to do so. Clearly the AuditorGeneral would have to have a staff equal to that of the Commissioner for Taxation to examine all taxation returns and assessments. The Auditor-General is in complete accord with the bill.

The honorable member foi- Reid also said that the Government had guaranteed the overdrafts of some companies .in the United States of America. That is not so. I have made it clear previously that if the Government gives a permit to a company to huy foreign exchange that company has .to obtain the money for that purpose from its “bankers. We incur no liability in the expenditure of dollars overseas, except for governmental purposes. Another matter mentioned by the honorable member for Reid concerned other Commonwealth departments having access to the ‘taxation files. His statement in that regard was not correct. Other departments do not have access to the files. The honorable member made a specific reference to the Universities Commission. All that ‘that body can do is to seek information from the Commis sioner of Taxation about particular matters that it is its duty to administer on behalf of the Government. It must not be thought that departments provided with information by the Commissioner of Taxation under oath of secrecy have the right of access to the files.

As the honorable member for Reid has dealt with the matter of Waddington Proprietary Limited, now known as Commonwealth Engineering Company Limited, it should be made clear, that before I became Treasurer in the Curtin Government, it was the practice of governments to give guarantees to private banks as well as to the Commonwealth Bank. Many such guarantees have been given by previous governments. I am not in any way questioning their justification, for in many instances, they were given in connexion with war work. That practice was discontinued by governmental direction when I became Treasurer. Thenceforth guarantees were given only to the Commonwealth Bank, which is a governmental instrumentality, and its profits, whatever they may he, finally reach the Treasury, either directly or in contributions to the National Debt Sinking Fund. The profits do not go into the pockets of private enterprise. In his reference to Waddingtons, the honorable gentleman referred to on:e of the greatest business romances this country has known. The fact is that Waddingtons were constructors of railway rolling-stock and air force hangars. The firm was in a hopeless ‘position. It had as its guarantors with a private bank three of Sydney’s shrewdest business men. In spite of that, it was .going into liquidation. It was making rolling-stock needed for State government railways and other articles needed in the war. We went into Waddingtons because of national needs and ti, e exigencies of war. We would not have touched Waddingtons but for the fact that it was making urgently-needed rolling-stock and air force hangars. The company had an overdraft with one of the biggest private banks in New South Wale3. Its guarantors had decided to run away from the job and throw the firm into liquidation. Its engineering ‘works was : admittedly not so ‘up to date as ‘it might have been, but it employed a great number of skilled artisans. The Commonwealth went into the matter entirely to meet national war needs. Out of that grew one of the most remarkable and romantic business transactions that this country has known. I have not talked about it in the House previously although honorable gentlemen opposite have tried to make out that every enterprise that the Government touches loses money. The honorable member for Reid has been repeating the arguments of his friends in Opposition. Mr. Chancellor is not now with the company. He sought to resign some years ago, but I asked him to retain his position because he had made a great national contribution under difficulties in reorganizing the company and making it one of the most up to date in Australia. While doing that he provided greater amenities for the employees. He made the organization a great financial success. He was assisted by Mr. Scott, a consulting accountant, who was associated with the Department of Munitions and Mr. Watson, who, as the honorable member for Reid said, is a private business man. Notwithstanding the great difficulties they were prepared, for the sake of the nation, to undertake the job of reorganizing the firm. They did a magnificent job and got little out of it. They did not do it, I am sure, for the mere sake of personal profit. There the company stands to-day. The honorable member for Reid has pointed to the great profit that the Government has made from its association with the company. Well, it will not be pleasant music for the Opposition to hear that the Government is able to operate these “ shows “ so well.

Mr White:

– What about TransAustralia Airlines?

Mr CHIFLEY:

– The honorable member for Balaclava (Mr. White) may some day regret his references to TransAustralia Airlines, because it, too, is a business romance. In a couple of years it has become known to airmen and air travellers from all over the world as one of the finest air transport companies in the world. Returning to the matter of Commonwealth Engineering Company Limited, I say that the Government gave a guarantee to the Commonwealth Bank, not because it wanted to engage in a business venture, but because it wanted to meet the rollingstock needs of the Governments of Queensland and New South Wales. Having made a success of the undertaking by re-organizing it, the Government has continued its interest in it. Itrestored what private enterprise ruined. Under private enterprise the company was about to go into liquidation. It is certain that, having re-organized it and made it a complete success as a partGovernment venture, we are not going to hand back to private enterprise the rewards of the efforts of the Government

Mr Abbott:

– What about National Oil Proprietary Limited?

Mr CHIFLEY:

– National Oil Proprietary Limited was established by a previous ‘ administration. Many of us had grave doubts of the wisdom of that action. The major part of the undertaking is situated in my own electorate, and the remainder is in the electorate of the honorable member for Robertson (Mr. Williams). National Oil Proprietary Limited was established by a previous government, doubtless with the best of intentions, for the purpose of experimenting in the production of oil from shale in Australia. It suffered many misfortunes as a result of the advice that was tendered to it. The Australian Government and the New South Wales Government that were concerned in its establishment were conservative governments. They ventured into this field. I do not blame them for doing so, because these experiments have to be undertaken by some authority. I think that mistakes were made in the advice that was tendered to the company. Both of the Governments to which I have referred were interested financially in the concern. It is true that from time to time various improvements have been made with the object of bringing the experiment to the point at which oil can be produced satisfactorily at a reasonably economic price. I have never believed that oil can be produced from shale at the same price as that at which gusher oil is produced in other parte of the world. However, if the experiment has had one result it is that it has given the Australian people, at a time when oil is scarce, the opportunity to prove whether oil can be produced from shale successfully and economically in Australia. The venture was not inaugurated by this Government, and nobody has felt more concerned than I have about the amount of capital that has gone into it. I have never been completely satisfied that the experiment will be a success. I have been encouraged in the belief that the venture is worth while from the national point of view, not by the opinion of government servants but by that of a man who has given his services as chairman of the board of directors of the company entirely free of charge. I refer to Mr. Keith Butler, the manager of Broken Hill Company Proprietary Limited, Newcastle. Although he has devoted a great deal of his time to advising upon this project, he has not charged the Government Id. for his services. In fact, he has not claimed his expenses. Nor has the organization with which he is associated, Broken Hill Company Proprietary Limited, made a charge for the services he has rendered. Mr. Butler, who is a very able man, has great faith in the ultimate success of this scheme for the production of oil from shale. There are American investors in Australia who believe that, as a result of methods that have been perfected at Glen Davis, it may be possible to produce oil in considerable quantities from shale. Perhaps, despite my misgivings, the venture may ultima tely be of great national value.

With regard to the Government giving guarantees in connexion with business undertakings, all that I can say is that after all the Treasurer of the Commonwealth is responsible to his Government and to the Parliament. The history of the Commonwealth does not show that those who have occupied the position of Treasurer have been irresponsible persons or parties to corruption. That is also true of the Chancellors of the Exchequer in the United Kingdom. They act on behalf of the Government and are always responsible to the Parliament. We make no apology for giving the right to the Commonwealth Treasurer, acting on behalf of the Government, to say that such things should be done when it is considered desirable in the national interest that they should he done. It is true that members of other political parties may consider that the action taken is not so much in the national interest as the Government claims that it is. It was amusing to hear the honorable member for Reid who throughout his life has been interested in signing different pledges in regard to industry, finding fault with the procedure by which the government of the day interests itself in some business, not for the purpose of drawing huge dividends, but because it considers its action to be for the good of the community that it is governing.

I conclude by saying what I rose to say. For 2S years no one has made any attempt to modernize the Audit Act. The Minister, the departmental officials and myself, after a great deal of work - it was a tremendously difficult job - have brought the act up to date. The Leader of the Australian Country party (Mr. Fadden) previously raised the question of the right of access to taxation returns. I have already explained the very wide powers that the Auditor-General has, even in regard to the Taxation Branch. I think the Government and the Minister in charge of the bill should be commended, rather than criticized, for the great result that has been achieved in the preparation of this measure.

Mr WHITE:
Balaclava

– I should have taken part in this debate had it not been for the outraged attitude that was adopted by the Prime Minister (Mr. Chifley) when, in the course of his remarks about how governments can make enterprises pay, I had the temerity to say. “ Like Trans-Australia Airlines ? “ Immediately, the right honorable gentleman, with his well-known technique, changed the subject to the efficiency of that enterprise, to which I have frequently paid tribute. The right honorable gentleman said that airmen and other people who are qualified to express an opinion say that it is a good airline. I think that I too should know something about it. I say that it is a good airline, and I have frequently paid tribute to its splendid air.crews, who are mostly ex-members of the Royal Australian Air Force or are. aero club graduates. I have bad something to do with the Royal Australian Air Force and aero clubs for over 30 years. I propose to analyse the accounts of Trans-Australia Airlines in order that what the Prime Minister has said may not go unanswered and uncorrected, and to show how a government can conceal

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– Order !

Mr WHITE:

– I suggest-

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– Order !’ The honorable gentleman is not entitled to suggest anything when I am on my feet. The House is discussing a bill to amend the Audit Act. Honorable members are entitled to discuss the Audit Act and its relationship to the financing of. certain companies by ‘ the Government,, but they are not entitled to go into details of the operations of any such company.

Mr WHITE:

– With respect, I point out that the accounts of Trans-Australia Airlines are subject to Commonwealth audit. I intend to show that there is a need for greater scrutiny of this State enterprise. I contend that it comes within the scope of this bill, which relates to government audits. This is an analysis that was made by a well-known accountant. He says that in the last year the accounts showed-

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– Order ! The honorable gentleman must’ confine his. remarks to the bill. If he1 does not do so, I shall ask him to resume his seat.

Mr WHITE:

– I do not want to transgress in any way. If a company, which shall be nameless, has received assistance from the Government to an amount of several million pounds–

Mr Burke:

– I rise to order. The House is discussing a bill to amend the Audit Act, which lays down the principles upon which government operations shall be audited. The only clause that would allow of a discussion of any business undertaking is clause 39 to which the honorable member for Reid (Mr. Lang) referred. That clause seeks to insert a new section 70b. stating that the

Treasurer may, on behalf of the Commonwealth guarantee the. repayment to the Commonwealth Bank of any loan made for the purposes of the Commonwealth. I. suggest that in relation to the concern to which the honorable member for Balaclava (Mr. White) has referred there is no suggestion of an advance. from the Commonwealth Bank or of a guarantee to that bank by the Government.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– The objection is a sound one.

Mr WHITE:

– The undertaking of which I am speaking comes within the scope of that proposed section.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– It does not come within that category at all. It is entirely outside the scope of the bill.

Mr WHITE:

– It has received £3,670,000 through the Commonwealth Bank. How does the Government finance it if not through that institution?

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– The honorable gentleman is attempting to evade the ruling of the Chair. He knows that the advances to Trans-Australia Airlines, about, which he desires to speak, are regulated by act of Parliament. Therefore, it does not come within the scope of this bill. Consequently, the honorable gentleman is nol entitled, under the Standing Orders, to deal with that matter. If he persists along the line he has taken, I shall ask him to resume his seat.

Mr Anthony:

– I rise to order.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-Does the point of order refer to the matter on which I have ruled?

Mr Anthony:

– It touches-

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– Order ! Does it relate to that matter?

Mr Anthony:

– It touches upon the question that is now before the House. I presume that I have some rights in regard to stating a point of order in this chamber.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– The honorable gentleman, need not become excited. The- Chair has given as ruling with regard, to a certain matter, and no honorable member is entitled to take a point of order on that ruling. If honorable members disagree with it, they know what to do. I have given my ruling and I shall not accept any further points of order with regard to it.

Mr WHITE:

– I accept the ruling. I shall make a statement on the adjournment.

Mr ANTHONY:
Richmond

– In dealing with this bill to amend the Audit Act, we are probably touching upon one of the most cynical acts of the Government. The Government brings down a bill to amend the Audit Act and declares publicly that the act means something to it. It says that it has been studying this matter with the AuditorGeneral for the last two years and that it is very concerned that everything should be done strictly in accordance with the rules and according to the book. However, when the Auditor-General presents his report to the Parliament each year no government could show a greater disregard for what is contained in it than does this one. If the reports of the Auditor-General are to be protective of the interests of the taxpayers of the Commonwealth the Government should pay some regard to them. [ could give instance after instance of the Auditor-General having directed the attention of the Government and the Parliament to certain discrepancies in the public accounts, and to certain irregular payments, notable among them being amounts drawn by Mr. Speaker and expenditure involved in the utilization of Government cars by Mr. Speaker.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– Order ! [ ask the honorable member to indicate the clause of the bill. to which he is now referring.

Mr ANTHONY:

– I am referring to the general powers and duties of the Auditor-General.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– To what clause is the honorable member speaking ?

Mr ANTHONY:

– Under clause 9 provision is made for the insertion in the principal act of new section 14b which provides that the Auditor-General shall have access to certain books, documents and papers. If he has access to such sources of information he must report to the Parliament what he finds in those books, documents and papers. The only purpose for which the AuditorGeneral is to be granted access to such hooks, documents and papers is to enable him to inform the Parliament, and through the Parliament, the people of the Commonwealth, exactly how our monetary affairs are being handled by the Government. It is the duty of the Auditor-General to throw light on what appears to him to be an improper expenditure of public money

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-Order! The honorable member’s remarks do not relate to clause 9 of the bill.

Mr ANTHONY:

– Are we in committee? I submit-

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– Order ! The honorable member knows very well that the Standing Orders provide that honorable members must address their remarks to the bill before the House. All I ask is that the honorable member connect his remarks with the bill. I ask him to state the clause with which he is connecting his remarks.

Mr ANTHONY:

– I was dealing with the powers of the Auditor-General. ] claim the same rights and privileges as you, sir, accorded to the Prime Minister, who dealt in general with many aspects of the duties and powers of the AuditorGeneral. In addition the right honorable gentleman referred to Trans-Australia Airlines and various companies in which the Government has invested public funds, including Smith and Waddington. In fact, he dealt with almost every activity of the Government he cared to touch upon without your calling upon him to state the clause to which he was addressing his remarks.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– Order ! I ask the honorable member to resume his seat. The honorable member is reflecting on the Chair.

Mr ANTHONY:

– I shall submit in writing a motion of disagreement with your ruling, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– The honorable member will resume his seat. I have not given a ruling on the matter. I have merely asked the honorable member to resume his scat because he has reflected upon the Chair. I call upon the next speaker to rise.

Mr Anthony:

– I rise to order.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– No point of order is involved. If the honorable member does not resume his seat immediately, I shall name him.

Mr Anthony:

– On a matter of privilege-

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– I name the honorable member for Richmond.

Mr Anthony:

– You may name me, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but I shall still stand up for my rights in this Parliament. You have accorded to the Prime Minister certain rights which you have denied to me. You winked at the other side of the House when you sat down the honorable member for Balaclava (Mr. White). I challenge you to deny that.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– Order ! If the honorable member does not resume his seat I shall name him again when he returns to the House. He has already been named for one offence.

Motion (by Mr. Dedman) put -

That the honorable member for Richmond (Mr. Anthony) be suspended from the service of the House.

The House divided. (Mr. Deputy Speaker - Mr. J. J. Clark.)

AYES: 32

NOES: 23

Majority . . 9

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

The honorable member for Richmond thereupon withdrew from the chamber.

Mr DEPUTYSPEAKER:

– Order! There is no need for the Acting Leader of the Opposition to become excited. If he proposes to raise a point of order in relation to the suspension of the honorable member for Richmond he will be entirely out of order and I shall not allow him to do so.

Mr Harrison:

– I direct your attention, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to the fact that I wish to raise a point of order in relation to the procedure that is being followed in this House. I do so in order that honorable members may know just where they are heading in that regard. I direct attention to Standing Orders 283, 284 and 286. Standing Order 283 reads -

Any Member may rise to speak “ to order “, or upon a matter of Privilege suddenly arising.

Standing Order 284 reads -

All Questions of Order and matters of

Privilege at any time arising should, until decided, suspend the consideration and decision of every other Question.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– Order ! I am prepared to give a ruling on the point of order raised by the Acting Leader of the Opposition.

Mr Harrison:

– I want an opportunity to state my case.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– Order! There is no need for the honorable gentleman to do so. No matter of privilege has been raised. I ask the Acting Leader of the Opposition to resume his seat. When I asked the honorable member for Richmond to resume his seat he more or less refused to do so. He then stated that he intended to submit in writing a motion of disagreement with my ruling. No ruling had been given. The Chair bad merely directed the honorable member to resume his seat. He then adopted an insolent attitude to the Chair and thereby aggravated his offence. I thereupon named the honorable member.

Mr Harrison:

– I move -

That the House has no confidence whatever in you, sir, as Deputy Speaker.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– Order ! The Acting Leader of the Opposition is familiar with the Standing Orders. He is well aware that he cannot submit such a motion without having given notice of it.

Mr Harrison:

– Then I now give notice that I shall move -

That the House has no confidence in you, sir, as Deputy Speaker.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– Order ! This is not the timeat which to give notice of such a motion. The honorable gentleman knows that he must act in accordance with the Standing Orders.

Mr Beale:

– I rise to order.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– Does the honorable member wish to speak to the matter before the House?

Mr Beale:

– I have risen to order.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– No point of order is involved. The honorable member will resume his seat. If he does not do so he, too, will find himself outside. The question before the Chair is, “ That the bill be now read a second time”.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time.

Mr Spender:

– I desire to submit a motion as a matter of urgency. My action is taken in accordance with Standing Order 407, which reads -

In cases of urgent necessity, any Standing or Sessional Order or Orders of the House may be suspended for the day’s sitting, on Motion, duly made and seconded, without notice: Provided that such Motion is carried by an absolute majority of the whole number of the Members of the House.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– Order ! The second reading of the bill has been agreed to.

Mr Spender:

– As a matter of urgency, I am asking for leave to submit a motion in accordance with the Standing Orders. That motion is in these terms-

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– Order ! The honorable member is entirely out of order. No point of order is involved. The second reading of the bill has been agreed to. I ask the honorable member to resume his seat. If he wishes to be suspended from the service of the House. I shall name him, too.

Mr Spender:

– I move -

That I be further heard.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– I name the honorable member for Warringah.

Mr Spender:

– I rise to order.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– Order ! The honorable member has been named.

Mr Spender:

– When you tell me to resume my seat, I have the right under the Standing Orders to place the matter in the custody of the House by moving that I be further heard. Therefore,I now move -

That I be further heard.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– The honorable member, having been named, has no rights in this House at present.

Motion (by Mr. Dedman) put -

That the honorable member for Warringah (Mr. Spender) be suspended from the service of the House.

The House divided. (Mr. Deputy Speaker - Mr. J. J. Clark.)

AYES: 32

NOES: 22

Majority 10

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

The honorable member for Warringah thereupon withdrew from the chamber.

Mr DEPUTY SPE AKER:

– -There is a standing order which provides that honorable members may not take advantage of the Standing Orders for the purpose of obstructing the ‘business of the House. If honorable members persist in doing that, I shall have to name them, and that is not my desire. The second reading of the bill has been agreed to.

In committee:

Mr McEwen:

– I rise to a question of privilege under Standing Order 283.

The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN (Mr. Burke).-Order ! The committee has no knowledge of what occurred in the House. Strong action will be taken if honorable members persist with their present attitude.

Mr McEwen:

– I submit that you cannot know whatI am going to say untilI have said it, Mr. Deputy Chairman.

The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN.Order! The honorable member will re sume his Seat. The committee has before it clause 1 of the bill. I call the Minister for Post-war Reconstruction.

Motion (by Mr. Dedman) put -

That the Deputy Chairman do report progress andask leaveto sit again.

The committee divided. (The Deputy Chairman- Mr, T. P. Burke.)

AYES: 33

NOES: 21

Majority . . 12

In division:

AYES

NOES

The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN.- The right honorable member for Macquarie is paired with the right honorable member for Kooyong (Mr. Menzies), who is absent from Australia. In accordance with that agreement, the right honorable member for Macquarie left his place, but if members of the Opposition wish his vote to be recorded with the “ Ayes “ in defiance of it, the Chair will so direct.

The right honorable member for Macquarie thereupon re-entered the chamber.

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Progress reported.

Motion (by Mr. Dedman) put.

That the House will, at a later hour this day, again resolve itself into the said committee.

The House divided. (Mr. Deputy Speaker- Mr.J. J. Clark.) .

AYES: 32

NOES: 21

Majority 11

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Motion (by Mr. Dedman) put -

That the honorable member for Parramatta (Mr. Beale) be suspended from the service of the House.

The House divided. (Mr. Deputy Speaker - Mr. J. J. Clark.)

AYES: 32

NOES: 21

Majority . . . . 11

In division:

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

The honorable member for Parramatta thereupon withdrew from the chamber.

page 3130

BILLS RETURNED FROM THE SENATE

The following bills were returned from the Senate: -

Without amendment -

Income Tax Assessment Bill 1948.

Social Services Contribution Assessment Bill 1948.

Without requests -

Income Tax Bill 1948.

Social Services Contribution Bill 1948.

page 3130

AUDIT BILL 1948

Message recommending appropriation reported.

Motion (by Mr. Dedman) put -

That the foregoing message be taken into consideration, in committee of the whole House, forthwith.

The House divided. (Mr. Deputy Speaker - Mr. j. j. Clark.)

AYES: 33

NOES: 20

Majority . . 13

Majority . . 13

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

In committee (Consideration of Governor-General’s message) :

Motion (by Mr. Dedman) put -

That it is expedient that an appropriation of revenue be made for the purposes of a bill foran act to amend the Audit Act 1901-1947. (The Deputy Chairman - Mr. T. P. Burke.)

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Motion (by Mr. Dedman) put -

That the resolution be reported.

The committee divided. (The Deputy Chairman - Mr. T. P. Burke.)

AYES: 33

NOES: 20

Majority . . . . 13

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Resolution reported.

Motion (by Mr. Dedman) put -

That the resolution be adopted.

The House divided. (Mr. Deputy Speaker - Mr. J. J. Clark.)

AYES: 33

NOES: 20

Majority . . 13

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Resolution adopted.

In committee: Consideration resumed.

Clause 1 -

Question put -

That the clause he agreed to.

The committee divided. (Mr. Deputy Chairman - Mr. T. P. Burke.)

AYES: 33

NOES: 20

Majority 13

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Clause 2-

Question put; -

That the clause be agreed to.

The committee divided. (Mr. Deputy Chairman - Mr. T. P. Burke.)

AYES: 31

NOES: 20

Majority . . 11

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Clause 3 -

Question put -

That the clause be agreed to.

The committee divided. (The Deputy Chairman - Mr. T. P. Burke.)

AYES: 33

NOES: 19

Majority 14

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Clause 4 -

Question put -

That the clause be agreed to.

The committee divided. (The Deputy Chairman - Mr. T. P. Burke.)

AYES: 32

NOES: 20

Majority 12

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Motion (by Mr. Dedman) put -

That the Deputy Chairman do report pro gress and ask leave to sit again.

The committee divided. (The Deputy Chairman - Mr. T. P. Burke.)

AYES: 33

NOES: 20

Majority . . 13

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Progress reported.

Motion (by Mr. Dedman) put -

That the House will, at a later hour this day, again resolve itself into the said committee.

The House divided. (Mr. Deputy Speaker - Mr. J. J. Clark.)

AYES: 33

NOES: 20

Majority . . 13

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Declaration of Urgency.

Mr CHIFLEY:
Prime Minister and Treasurer · Macquarie · ALP

– I declare that the Audit Bill 1948 is an urgent bill.

Question put -

That the bill be considered an urgent bill.

The House divided. (Mr. Deputy Speaker - Mr. J. J. Clark.)

AYES: 33

NOES: 20

Majority 13

AYES

NOES

Question, so resolved in the affirmative.

Allotment of Time.

Motion (by Mr. Chifley) proposed -

That the time allotted in connexion with the bill be as follows: -

For the remainder of the committee stage, until 11.15 p.m. this day. (6) For the remaining stages, until 11.30 p.m. this day.

Mr HARRISON:
Acting Leader of the Opposition · Wentworth

– I can see no reason why the Prime Minister (Mr. Chifley) should seek to allot time for the passage of this bill through its various stages. The circumstances attending the introduction of the “ guillotine “ on this occasion must cause honorable members grave concern. The bill has not been debated by the Opposition in accordance with the Standing Orders, and now the Government is endeavouring to stifle further debate and prevent the proper consideration of the measure. This is an important bill, consisting of more than 40 clauses, and it has given rise to keen discussion. The Leader of the Australian Country party (Mr. Fadden) resumed the second-reading debate on the bill, and was followed by the honorable member for Reid (Mr. Lang) and certain members of the Opposition. The Prime Minister has now used the forms of the House to prevent us from properly analysing the clauses of the bill in committee. Nearly 40 clauses must be disposed of in approximately half an hour. In other words, we may devote, on an average, 40 seconds to the consideration of each clause. The position is utterly absurd. However, the introduction of the “ guillotine “ at this stage is characteristic of the manner in which the Government treats the Parliament. It completely ignores the forms of the House, and, indeed, is making a sham and a mockery of the legislature. That the Government has pledged itself to destroy the parliamentary institution is becoming obvious as time passes.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– Order ! The Acting Leader of the Opposition must confine his remarks to the proposed time-table.

Mr HARRISON:

– I am doing so, because I am pointing out that the Government is making a sham and mockery of the parliamentary institution by insisting that we complete the consideration of approximately 40 clauses in half an hour. I strongly protest against the way in which the Parliament is being gradually destroyed by those who claim to be the defenders of democracy. The present circumstances are unprecedented in the history of the Australian Parliament, and force the Opposition to utilize the forms of the ‘House in an endeavour to preserve democratic principles. The fact that the Opposition has been forced to take such a stand is a strong reflection on the Government, and shows that it is prepared to ignore the rights of the Opposition in its haste to dispose of this bill. The unnecessary introduction of the “ guillotine “ at this stage is typical of the Government’s effort to destroy this legislature.

Mr DALY:
Martin

.- I was amazed to hear the Acting Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Harrison) speak so heatedly about the introduction of the “ guillotine “. Since 9 p.m., due to the unseemly conduct of certain members of the Opposition- -

Mr HARRISON:

– I rise to order. I submit that the honorable member for Martin has reflected on the Chair. He has claimed that unruliness has been exhibited in the chamber and you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, know that unruliness does not take place here.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-Order! I hope that the Acting Leader of the Opposition is not asking me to give a ruling on that matter.

Mr DALY:

– Members of the Opposition have agreed that this bill is urgent and important, but they have adopted obstructionist tactics, and have repeatedly called for divisions, even on formal procedure. The conduct of the Opposition has forced the Prime Minister (Mr. Chifley) to declare the bill an urgent measure. Full responsibility for any curtailment of the debate must - be accepted by the Opposition, which has adopted extreme obstructionist tactics that can serve no useful purpose; in an endeavour to take the control of the House out of the hands of the Government. I consider that, in such circumstances, the Prime Minister has been most liberal in allowing until 11.15 o’clock for the consideration of the remaining clauses of the bill. Had I been in the position of the right honorable gentleman [ should have been inclined to terminate the discussion well before -11 o’clock. Members of the Opposition had ample opportunity to state their “views -on the various clauses, and as they have not taken advantage of the time available ‘to them their complaints about the introauction of the “ guillotine “ are not justified. The comments by the Acting Leader of the Opposition about the actions of the Government are without foundation. The Government is completely justified in introducing the “guillotine”, and its action in doing so has my full endorsement. My only regret is that the Prime Minister was so liberal as to allow the Opposition until 11.30 p.m. to ‘express its views upon the remainder ‘of the hill.

Mr WHITE:
Balaclava

.- Mr. Deputy Speaker–

Mr McEwen:

– Is not a member of the Australian Country party entitled to receive the call?

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– Order ! The Chair has called the honorable member for Balaclava.

Mr WHITE:

– The application of the “ guillotine “ by the Government is becoming all too frequent. Censure motions and adjournment motions have been ruthlessly gagged, and the “ guillotine “ has been applied unnecessarily. The Labour or socialist. Government has been in office for approximately seven years, but in that period has accepted only two amendments submitted by members of the Opposition. I proposed one of them, and it was most innocuous. Probably that is the reason why the Government accepted it. 3 mention that fact in order to show that this House is ceasing to be a deliberative assembly. The policy of the Government is to ignore the Opposition, and force its legislation through the Parliament. Of course, that attitude is understandable, because bills which the Government introduces must first receive the assent of caucus, and the submission of legislation to the Parliament is only a formality. Constructive proposals which members of the Opposition put forward are brushed unceremoniously aside. I have been a member of this House for twenty years, but in that period, I have never known three honorable members to Tse suspended in one evening.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-Order ! I am sure that the honorable member for Balaclava does not wish to be suspended. He is not entitled to refer to any matter other than .the proposed time-table for the remaining stages of the bill.

Mr WHITE:

– You, Mr. Deputy Speaker, did not wait for me to finish my remarks.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-Order! The honorable member must refer *to the question before the Chair.

Mr WHITE:

– I am pointing out that three members of the Opposition, who have made valuable contributions ‘to the debates in ‘the House-

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– Order I The honorable member must deal with the question before the Chair.

Mr Conelan:

– I direct attention to the state of the House.

Mr WHITE:

– That suits me. I lite to have a big’ audience.

Mr Archie Cameron:

– Should it be necessary to direct attention to the state of the House after the declaration of urgency ?

Mr McEwen:

– The Prime Minister has declared the bill an urgent measure, but the Government has only half a dozen supporters in the chamber.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– Order ! I ask honorable members to conduct themselves as members of the Australian Parliament should do. [Quorum formed.]

Mr WHITE:

– The practice in previous years has been for the Parliament to sit until the approach of Christmas, and I do not know of any reason why we should depart from that practice this year. We have still to consider a number of most important bills, and members of the Opposition are prepared to remain in Canberra for some weeks in order that that legislation may receive proper attention. The introduction of the “guillotine” is not necessary, and I protest against the action of the Prime Minister in curtailing the debate. The forms of the House should be adhered to, and this chamber should be a deliberative assembly. Unfortunately, it is becoming a place where a brutal majority rules.

Mr CHAMBERS:
Minister for the Army · Adelaide · ALP

– I am amazed to hear the honorable member for Balaclava (Mr. White) complain that the Prime Minister (Mr. Chifley) is curtailing the debate on this bill. The honorable member has said, in effect, that the Parliament is being robbed of its right to consider legislation. For nearly two hours, members of the Opposition have not made any attempt to discuss the clauses of the bill. The Acting Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Harrison) has stated that the proceedings this evening have made a sham and a mockery of the House. Members of the Opposition must accept responsibility for the events that justify such a description. In my opinion, the Prime Minister has been too tolerant with the Opposition this evening. We have had sufficient time to consider all the clauses of the bill, but the disgraceful behaviour of members of the Opposition-

Mr White:

– I rise to order. The Minister has referred to the “ disgraceful behaviour of members of the Opposition “. That statement is extremely offensive to me, and I demand that the Minister withdraw and apologize.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– Did the Minister say that the behaviour of members of the Opposition was disgraceful?

Mr CHAMBERS:

– The behaviour of certain members of the Opposition was such that you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, had to name three of them, and they were suspended from the service of the House.

Mr Conelan:

– Their behaviour was disgraceful.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-Order! I ask honorable members to confine their remarks to the proposed time-table for the remaining stages of the bill, and not to deal with irrelevant matters.

Mr McEwen:

– What about the point of order which the honorable member for Balaclava has taken?

Mr CHAMBERS:

– I shall confine my remarks to the proposed time-table.

Mr White:

– I rise to order. I took objection to a remark by the Minister, and asked that he withdraw it, and apologize.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– Order ! Does the honorable member state that a remark by the Minister was offensive to him ?

Mr White:

– Yes, definitely.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– I ask the Minister to withdraw the remark, which is personally offensive to the honorable member for Balaclava.

Mr CHAMBERS:

– I withdraw the remark; but the fact remains that three members of the Opposition have been named and suspended from the service of the House this evening.

Mr McEwen:

– The Minister is noi entitled to qualify a withdrawal.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-Order! The Minister must not refer to that incident, but should confine his remarks to the proposed time-table.

Mr Calwell:

– He was speaking conservatively.

Mr CHAMBERS:

– The fact remains that members of the Opposition were allowed ample time this evening to discuss all the clauses of the hill. Probably they were not competent to do so, and, therefore, decided to hold up the business of the House. For nearly two hours, they have not attempted to discuss any clauses. Therefore, I consider that the Prime Minister has been all too tolerant with members of the Opposition in allowing them until 11.15 o’clock to deal with the remaining clauses. Like the honorable member for Martin (Mr. Daly), I should have closed the debate at least half an hour ago had I been in the position of the Prime Minister.

Mr McEWEN:
Indi

.- Obviously, the Minister for the Army (Mr. Chambers) and the honorable member for Martin (Mr. Daly) are not familiar with the Standing Orders. They could not have closed the debate half an hour ago, unless they were prepared to tear up the Standing Orders. I am prepared to believe that all honorable members opposite are prepared to tear up the Standing Orders. Under the Standing Orders the allotment of time may be debated for 30 minutes. When that period has elapsed, honorable members will have only three minutes in which to discuss approximately 40 clauses. The position is outrageous. The Prime Minister (Mr. Chifley) has informed us that the bill has been awaited for 28 years. Therefore, there can be no justification for this declaration of urgency, except that it reflects the attitude of mind of the Prime Minister and his Government. It is the attitude of mind of the basher gang imported into parliamentary debate.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-Order! [ think the honorable member’s language is becoming a little strong for parliamentary use. I ask him to confine himself to the allotment of time. His reference to the Prime Minister in con nexion with a basher gang I regard as offensive, and I ask him to withdraw it.

Mr McEWEN:

– I withdraw. Changing the tenor of my language, I say that this motion reflects an attitude of mind calculated to destroy the deliberative character of the Parliament, and, in my opinion, it is intended to destroy it. This is not the first or the fiftieth incident that reflects that attitude of mind. It is the attitude of mind of a complete fascist, which is : “ When you are in power trample on your opponents “. It is time that the country understood that that is the attitude of mind of the Labour party.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-Order! The honorable member must confine his remarks to the allotment of time. He is getting wide of the mark.

Mr Conelan:

– I rise to order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The honorable member for Indi (Mr. McEwen) has said something really offensive to members on this side. I am personally offended and I ask that it be withdrawn.

Mr McEWEN:

– What is it?

Mr Conelan:

– I object to the honorable member’s references to fascist tactics. One minute he describes us as Communists and the next minute as fascists. I strongly object to the honorable member’s remark and ask that it be withdrawn.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– If the honorable member for Griffith regards the statement of the honorable member for Indi as offensive, I must ask him to withdraw it.

Mr McEWEN:

– I shall withdraw anything, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-I do not think there is any need for honorable members to engage in open conflict in this debate. The Standing Orders must be observed. I ask the honorable member for Indi to modify his language and to keep within the limits of the Standing Orders.

Mr McEWEN:

– I overheard aD honorable member opposite say that he proposed to move that I be no longer heard, thereby indicating that the Labour party’s attitude is, “ When you have a majority trample on your opponents “.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– Order ! ;l. ask the honorable member to confine himself to the allotment of time.

Mr McEWEN:

– I am speaking as my colleagues have spoken. We pressed for divisions to try to expose to the country the character of the Government, which has no respect whatever for the processes of democracy or for the deliberative nature of this assembly. To say that the National Parliament must complete the consideration of 37 clauses of a bill in three minutes is absolutely fantastic.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– Order ! The honorable member’s time has expired.

Mr DEDMAN:
Minister for Defence, Minister for Post-war Reconstruction and Minister in charge of the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research · Corio · ALP

– It is amusing to hear honorable members opposite talk in the strain that they have adopted about the time allotted for consideration of the bill. They would have had plenty of opportunity to discuss it had they only behaved in a reasonable fashion.

Mr Abbott:

– I rise to order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I ask that the reference to honorable members of the Opposition behaving in a reasonable fashion be withdrawn.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– Order ! I ask the honorable member to resume his seat. He is going too far. That is absolutely parliamentary language.

Mr DEDMAN:

– If honorable gentlemen opposite had behaved in a reasonable fashion, they would have had plenty of time to discuss all the clauses of the bill. The motion relates to the allotment of time for the consideration of the various stages of the bill. I think we can approach the subject by comparing the time allotted for the consideration of this bill with that allotted for the consideration of other bills in days gone by. When we look at the record of honorable member’s opposite, we find that if ever a government tried to rule the Parliament with an iron hand, as far as time for discussion of measures is concerned, it consisted of honorable gentlemen opposite. Some Opposition members have referred to the short space of time allotted for the consideration of this bill. Examination of the Votes and Proceedings of this House-

Mr McEwen:

– I rise to order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. You have ruled that the only matter that may be debated at present is the time allotted for the consideration of this measure. No references to time allotted for earlier debates can be relevant under your ruling.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– There seems to be a misconception. I ruled that the discussion must be confined to allotment of time. Any matter relevant to that is in order.

Mr DEDMAN:

– I was pointing out that when honorable members opposite were in power the gag was applied to curtail debate on many occasions. In 1932-34, when the late Mr. Lyons was Prime Minister, the gag was applied 34 times in this House.

Mr McEwen:

– What has that to do with this question?

Mr DEDMAN:

– I am saying that honorable gentlemen opposite are speaking with their tongues in their cheeks.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– Order ! I ask the Minister to proceed with the discussion and to ignore interjections.

Mr DEDMAN:

– In 1934-37, again when Mr. Lyons was Prime Minister, the gag was applied 125 times.

Mr White:

– This is the “ guillotine “ not the gag.

Mr DEDMAN:

– In 1937-40 the gag, again under the prime ministership of Mr. Lyons, was applied twelve times. Since Labour has been in office, the gag and the “ guillotine “ have been applied only in exceptional circumstances. The honorable member for Balaclava (Mr. White) was one of the worst offenders in this regard. When the Ottawa Agreement was .under consideration - and if we are comparing the importance of different measures, I should say that that was a more important measure than this one-

Mr McDonald:

– I rise to order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I understand that your ruling was that the debate must be limited te the time allotted for the consideration of the bill. What has that to do with the Ottawa Agreement?

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

-Order! The Minister was not discussing the

Ottawa Agreement. He was saying that the time allotted for its consideration was curtailed. Any reference to time allotted for the consideration of previous bills is distinctly in order. The debate must be confined to the matter of time. The Minister is in order. However, his time has now expired.

Mr FRANCIS:
Moreton

.- I object to the inadequacy of the time allotted for the consideration of this most important measure which consists of 41 clauses, only four of which have been passed. In three minutes we shall have to complete the consideration of the rest of the bill. How any one can regard that procedure as democratic government I do not know. Latterly the trend displayed in the Parliament is for members of the Government to disregard completely their functions, and that utter disregard is shown by the refusal of the Government to allow adequate time for discussion of measures. The curtailment of the time for discussion of measures in the Parliament means that the traditions of parliamentary government are being violated and traduced. By conducting affairs in such a fashion the Government is degrading the Parliament. To-night we are being allowed only a few minutes to discuss a measure of more than 40 clauses, and I register my most emphatic protest against such conduct. By adopting such an attitude members of the political party opposite are simply adding to their own troubles. The Government has lost the respect of the country, and it will do nothing to rehabilitate itself by adopting tactics such as those to which it has resorted to-night.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– Has the honorable member any ideas on how much time should be devoted to the consideration of the remaining clauses of the bill?

Mr.FRANCIS. - I have. I have watched the passage of time very closely, and have endeavoured to conserve what little time has been given to us. The action of the Government in curtailing to such a degree the time for discussion of such a measure, and the observations of the Minister for Post-war Reconstruction (Mr. Dedman), demonstrate clearly that the Government has no respect for the

Parliament. An administration should show its respect for the Parliament by respecting those who constitute it, and when that respect is withheld and the right of discussion is curtailed, the Government responsible for such actions is reflecting not only on the Parliament but also on democracy itself. The criticism that we are drifting into fascism is substantiated by the refusal of the Government to permit time to be devoted to the discussion of measures, and if the Government continues to treat the Parliament in that fashion it will bring the parliamentary institution itself into discredit.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– Order ! The time allotted for the consideration of this motion has expired.

Question put -

That the motion(vide page 3135) be agreed to.

The House divided. (Mr. Deputy Speaker - Mr. J.J . Clark.)

AYES: 33

NOES: 20

Majority . . . . 13

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

In committee: Consideration resumed.

Question put -

That the remainder of the bill be agreed to and that the bill be reported without amendment.

The committee divided. (The Deputy Chairman - Mr. T. P. Burke.)

AYES: 33

NOES: 20

Majority . . 13

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Bill reported without amendment.

Motion (by Mr. Dedman) put -

That the report be adopted.

The House divided. (Mr. Deputy Speaker - Mr. j. j. Clark.)

AYES: 33

NOES: 20

Majority . . . . 13

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Report adopted.

Third Reading

Motion (by Mr. Dedman) proposed -

That the bill be now read a third time.

Mr WHITE:
Balaclava

.- In accordance with Standing Order 185, and so that the bill may be properly debated later, by a full House and without the application of the “ guillotine “ or the gag, I move as an amendment -

That the word “ now “ be left out and the following words be added: - “this day six months “.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– Order ! The time allotted for the consideration of the remaining stages of the hill has expired.

Question put -

That the word proposed to be left out (Mr. White’s amendment) stand part of the question.

The House divided. (Mr. Deputy Speaker - Mr. J. J. Clark.)

AYES: 33

NOES: 20

Majority 13

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Amendment negatived.

Question put -

That the bill be now read a third time.

The House divided. (Mr. Deputy Speaker - Mr. J. J. Clark.)

AYES: 33

NOES: 20

Majority . . 13

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a third time.

page 3142

ADJOURNMENT

Motion (by Mr. Dedman) put -

That the House do now adjourn.

The House divided. (Mr. Deputy Speaker - Mr, J. J. Clark.)

AYES: 33

NOES: 20

Majority 13

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

page 3143

PAPERS

The following papers were presented : -

Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration Act - Regulations - Statutory Rules 1948, No. 143.

Customs Act - Regulations - Statutory Rules 1948, No. 145.

Defence Act - Regulations - Statutory Rules 1948, No. 144.

Superannuation Act - Regulations - Statutory Rules 1948, No. 142.

House adjourned at 11.45 p.m.

page 3143

ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

The following answers to questions were circulated: -

Industrial Unrest

Mr Fadden:

n asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

  1. Has the Government in recenttimes instituted inquiries into reports of a number of strikes having been brought about by aggressive minorities in various trade unions dominating union meetings and securing decisions which actually were contrary to the desire of the great body of trade unionists concerned?
  2. If so, has the Government devised any scheme to meet this situation?
  3. Will he consider the introduction of legislation to declare illegal any ballot held by a trade union to decide any matter unless conducted under the supervision of an approved authority and by secret ballot?
Mr Chifley:
ALP

– The answers to the right honorable gentleman’s questions are as follows: -

  1. It is probable that decisions affecting unions have been made by a minority of members, but this would only be due to the apathy of some members who are not sufficiently interested to participate in meetings or ballots. This state of affairs exists in many other organizations both public and commercial.
  2. As the honorable member will be aware introduction of the Conciliation and Arbitration Act of last year was designed to establish an expeditious system for preventing and settling industrial disputes. In addition, appeals have been made to employers and employees both by myself and by other members of the Government to recognize their responsibilities in an endeavour to maintain industrial peace. As I stated in my reply to the honorable member for Franklin on the 28th October, it is impossible to gauge the possible effect of such appeals. It is hoped that we have impressed on those concerned the necessity for greater production. The Government is doing and has done everything within its constitutional powers to promote goodwill in industry and to bring about sensible and just settlements of industrial disputes.
  3. Provision already exists in the act for the court at any stage of the proceedings in relation to an industrial dispute to order a secret ballot to ascertain the views of the members of an organization or a branch thereof which is party to the dispute. It would be inadvisable to declare illegal all ballots not so conducted as many matters on which the views of members are sought are of a minor nature and in many cases affect only the internal organization of the union concerned.

Coal: South Australian Supplies.

Mr Dedman:
ALP

n. - On the 12th November, the honorable member for Hindmarsh (Mr. Thompson) asked a question relating to supplies of coal shipped to South Australia during the past three months. The Minister for Shipping and Fuel has supplied the following information: -

The -weekly quota for South Australia was set by the Joint Coal Board at 19,500 tons when New South Wales coal production is 245,000 tons. This level was not reached in six of the last thirteen weeks and on a percentage basis South Australia received its appropriate share of the three months’ production. For the week ending the 20th November, shipping has been allotted to carry 15,000 tons to South Australia, and it is not possible to allot further vessels to load and sail in this particular week, although the Australian Shipping “Board is endeavouring to arrange for an additional vessel to commence loading at Newcastle about the end of the week. The Joint Coal Board anticipates that sufficient coal will be available over the next five weeks to enable increased shipments to South Australia and the Director of Shipping will make sufficient shipping available to carry all coal that is allotted to South Australia. In addition to the coal sent by sea the Joint Coal Board expects that consignments by rail will continue at the rate of between SOO and 1,000 tons weekly.

Australian Prisoners of War,

Mr Chambers:
ALP

s. - On the 19th October, the honorable member for Balaclava (Mr. White) asked a question in regard to the case of an Australian soldier who, “with nine other Australian .prisoners of war, was captured from the Japanese by Chinese guerrillas on Hainan Island, and he referred to the recovery of overpayment of the allotment from this soldier’s mother. I now advise the honorable member as follows : -

In this case, there was some uncertainty in regard to the actual date of death, but the matter has now been examined by me, und it has been decided that, in the case of eight of these prisoners of war, including VX27248 Private L. A. Sh iel Is, who was specially referred to by the honorable member, the date of death be amended to read - “ On or before the 1st May, 1945”. In view of this decision, pay will be credited to the member’s estate from the 10th April, 1944, to the 1st May, 1945, and paid to his mother as the sole beneficiary in the estate. In regard to the other two prisoners of war, no amendments will be made to their records, as the information available is to the effect that they died as a result of their wounds on the night of. the day following their capture by the Chinese on the 9th April, 1944.

Broadcasting: Station at Alice Springs.

Mr Blain:
NORTHERN TERRITORY

asked the Minister representing the Postmaster-General, upon notice -

  1. When will the new broadcasting station at Alice Springs be installed?
  2. When will the broadcasting programme line from Adelaide to Darwin be opened?
Mr Calwell:
ALP

l. - The PostmasterGeneral has supplied the following information : -

  1. The Alice Springs stations will be opened on the 30th November, 1948, with the call sign 5AL operating on 1530 kilocycles and transmitting a programme from station 5DB Darwin until such time as a programme line is available between Adelaide and Alice Springs early in 1949, when the station will broadcast a programme from Adelaide.
  2. The programme line from Adelaide to Darwin is now being provided and will be available for use early in 1949,- probably by the end of January, 1949.

Civil Aviation: DC6 Aircraft

Mr Fadden:

asked the Minister for Civil Aviation, upon notice -

  1. With regard to the .purchase by the Commonwealth Government of four D.C.6 aircraft, from Sweden, has his attention been drawn to the statement of the Chairman of the Australian National Airlines Commission, Mr. A. W. Coles, that “dollars would be needed for spares but this expenditure would not he embarrassing “ ?
  2. If so, (a) was the purchase of these aircraft arranged on a basis of sterling payment for the airframes and dollars for the engines and accessories, (&) what amount of dollars is involved, and (c) what is the estimated dollar expenditure on spare parts which will be required in the future?
Mr Drakeford:
Minister for Air · MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA · ALP

d - The answers to the right honorable gentleman’s questions are as follows: - 1 and 2. The aircraft including engines and equipment are being purchased from the Swedish airline for sterling and it is expected that a quantity of spares will be procurable from this source also for sterling. Further spares, particularly those of. a nature that are frequently replaced in normal maintenance, will have to be purchased for dollars, but the amount of such dollar expenditure cannot be closely estimated until it is known what spares can be purchased from the Swedish airline for sterling.

Telephone Services.

Mr Calwell:
ALP

l. - On the 9th November the honorable member for Swan (Mr. Hamilton) asked the following question : - 1 ask the Minister representing the PostmasterGeneral whether he can explain why, whenthe number of telephonesubscribers connected with rural or outer suburban exchanges increases, the rental and the tariff for culls are increased whereas the rental andcall charges connected with metropolitan exchanges remain on the same level when a similar increase occurs in the number of subscribers?

The Postmaster-General has supplied the following information : -

The rentals for subscribers’ services are fixed on a sliding scale related to the number of subscribers in each particular unit fee area, the object being to grade the charges in an equitable manner, both from the point of view of the extent of service which is available to the user and the cost of supplying it. Consequently, the base rental in a rural area where only a small number of subscribers is served is lower thanthe corresponding charge in a large country town or provincial centre, which in turn is less than that in force in the capital cities where the population is large and the number of accessible subscribers is considerable. This policy makes itpossible to give telephone facilities in sparsely settled localities at rates which could not be justified from an economic standpoint. In fact, the rates which apply in country districts are so low that they are in many cases insufficient to meet the annual charges which must necessarily be incurred in respect of interest on capital, depreciation and maintenance. The scale of charges commences with a base rental of £3 5s. per annum in areas containing notmore than 300 subscribers’ lines and it increases to £3 10s. per annum in areas embracing 301 to 1,000 lines. Higher rentals are charged as the number of subscribers’ lines increases beyond 2,000, 4,000 and 10,000 until the highest metropolitan rate of £6 5s. for a business service and £5 for a residence service in Sydney and Melbourne is reached. When the number of telephone subscribers’ services in a particular unit fee area develops beyond the maximum appropriate to the existing base rental in the area, it is necessary to adjust the tariffs in order to bring the charges into line with those already in operation in unit fee areas elsewhere throughout the Commonwealth, which contain approximately the same number of subscribers. A similar principle is in opera-‘ tion in connexion with unit fee calls excepting that there are only two different charges, namely, lid. per call in areas containing not more than 300 subscribers’ lines and l½d. per call in other areas. The tariff schedule is applied to metropolitan exchange areas as well as country exchange areas but,with the exception of Hobart, the rentals charged in the various metropolitan networks are at the prescribed maximum rate and, consequently, are not affected by further increases in the number of subscribers’ services.

Mr Calwell:
ALP

– On the 9th November the honorable member for Maranoa (Mr. Adermann) asked the following question.:

I direct the attention of the Minister representing the Postmaster-General to the statement of policy as declared in the GovernorGeneral’s Speech to the effect that many automatic telephone exchanges will be brought to this country from overseas. Will the Minister inform me what progress has been made in importing exchanges for thebenefitof people in country districts?

The Postmaster-General has supplied the following information : -

Orders have been placed withoverseas manufacturers for the supply of650 rural automatic exchanges and nine of these units were delivered recently. A further twelve exchanges are in transit from Great Britain and the manufacturers have indicated that regular shipments of fifteen per month will be made, commencing in January, 1949.

Soilerosion.

Mr Chifley:
ALP

y. - On the 21st October, the. honorable member for Swan . (Mr. Hamilton) asked me whether the Government would invite Dr. Hugh Bennett, soil conservation expert in the service of the Government of the United States of America, to visit Australia to advise on soil erosion problems. I have consulted my colleague, the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture, and, as a result, desire to inform him that there already exists two bodies in Australia which deal with soil erosion. These are the. Soil Conservation Committee, which consists of representatives of each State and the Commonwealth, together with the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, and the Federal Soil Conservation Committee, which deals with conservation matters in federal territories. The proposal to bring overseas experts to Australia to advise on soil conservation was discussed at the 28th meeting of the Australian Agricultural Council in 1946. The views expressed at that council meeting was that it would be preferable to send Australianexperts to study methods adopted overseas, a view which was supported by all States. In addition to the above, all States are fully aware of the need for development of soil conservation methods and have already achieved a great deal. It is also felt that in all probability the State soil conservation authorities have better practical knowledge of our requirements than overseas authorities.

Pensions.

Mr Chifley:
ALP

y. - On the 3rd November, the honorable member for Lilley (Mr. Hadley) asked me a question regarding accommodation charges at the Eventide Home, in. Brisbane. 1 now advise the honorable member .as follows : -

Under the provisions of the Social Services Consolidation Act prior to the recent amendment, the maximum rate of an age pension waa £1 17s. fid. per week. Where a pensioner was an inmate of a benevolent asylum, however, the maximum rate of pension payable to him was 13s. per week, the balance of £1 48. 6d. per week being payable to the institution for the pensioner s maintenance. As a result of the recent amendment to the act, the maximum rate of pension has been increased by 5s. per week, from £1 17b. fid. to £2 2s. 6d. Where a pensioner is an inmate of a benevolent asylum, the rate of pension payable to him has been increased by 2s. per week, from 13s. to 15s., whilst the amount payable to the institution for the pensioner’s maintenance has been increased by 3s. per week, from £1 4s. Od. to £1 7s. 8d. The Eventide Home, Sandgate, is a benevolent asylum for the purposes of the act, and it would appear that the increase of 3s. per week in the charge for accommodation at the institution mentioned by the honorable member relates to the increase in the amount payable under the law to the institution for the maintenance of each pensioner inmate.

Mr Chifley:
ALP

– On the 3rd November, the honorable member for Grey (Mr. Russell) asked whether I would recommend to the Government that a grant of £5 be made to all pensioners on the occasion of the Royal Visit next year. As the honorable member is aware, age pensions, service pensions and 100 per cent, general rate and special rate war pensions were recently increased by 5s. a week. At the same time the income an age or service pensioner may enjoy without reduction of pension was increased from £1 to £1 10s. a week and the amount of property, apart from the pensioner’s dwelling and other exempt property, which the age or service pensioner may have without reduction of pension was raised from £50 to £100 and the property limit above which no pension will be payable from £650 to £750. As the Government’s decision on the pension increases and the liberalization of the means test conditions was made after very careful consideration of all the relevant factors, I regret I am unable to recommend to the Government the adoption of the honorable member’s suggestion.

Galvanized Iron.

Mr Chifley:
ALP

y. - On the 5th November,, the honorable member for Darwin (Dame Enid Lyons) asked me the following, questions : - .

The Prime. Minister will recall the circumstances in which the Government intervened in the attempt to keep alive the Mount Bischoff mine at Waratah, in Tasmania. The assets at the mine are now being disposed of, and I am informed that a large quantity of galvanized iron, sufficient to provide roofs for twelve houses, have been sold in one lot, and are now being sent to another State. As that galvanized iron originally formed a part of the allocation to Tasmania will the Prime Minister investigate the circumstances surrounding the disposal of that roofing material with a view to having it re-allocated to that State * If that is not possible, will the right honorable gentleman endeavour to make good the deficiency in the allocation of galvanized iron to Tasmania?

I desire to inform the honorable mem- . ber as follows : -

As part of the option on the purchase of . Mount Bischoff mine granted to Zinc Corporation to further explore the potentialities of the field the company was given the first opportunity of purchasing any plant and maintenance stores at the mine required for their purpose during the two years’ currency of the option. Included in the plant and stores purchased- by the company was a quantity of galvanized iron. It is understood that tests to date have proved disappointing and because of this factor Zinc Corporation had in mind the transfer of the iron for use else- - where. ‘ The State Controller of Building Material in Tasmania has issued an order restraining the movement of the iron out of the State and Zinc Corporation has indicated that if further tests prove unsatisfactory and the material is not required for the purposes originally envisaged the State Controller of Building Material in Tasmania will be consulted regarding any proposed re-sale.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 17 November 1948, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1948/19481117_reps_18_199/>.