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House of Representatives
21 September 1944

17^th Parliament · 2^nd Session

NEW AND OPPOSED BUSINESS AFTER 11 P.M
QUESTION
- BROADCASTING
QUESTION
- AUSTRALIAN ARMY
QUESTION
- TRANSPORT OF STOCK
QUESTION
- INTERSTATE RAIL TRANSPORT
QUESTION
- ROAD TRANSPORT
OVERSEAS CONFERENCES
- Reports and Documents
QUESTION
- WHEAT INDUSTRY
QUESTION
- HOUSING
QUESTION
- TOBACCO AND CIGARETTES
QUESTION
- AIRCRAFT PRODUCTION
QUESTION
- COAL-MINING INDUSTRY
QUESTION
- BUDGET 1944-45
QUESTION
- ESTIMATES 1944-45
APPROPRIATION BILL 1944-45
STATUTORY DECLARATIONS BILL 1944
PAPERS
ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

Mr. Speaker (Hon. J. S. Rosevear) took the chair at 10.30 a.m., and read prayers.

page 1129

NEW AND OPPOSED BUSINESS AFTER 11 P.M

Motion (by Mr. Curtin) - by leave - agreed to -

That Standing Order 70 -11 o’clock rule - be suspended until the end of next week.

page 1129

QUESTION

BROADCASTING

Sale of Station 5KA Adelaide.

Mr CURTIN:
Minister for Defence · FREMANTLE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP

– I wish to make a personal explanation in regard to the statement yesterday that, in reply to a question upon notice by the honorable member forWilmot (Mr. Guy), I had made an erroneous answer in consequence of having been misinformed. The question and the answer were repeated yesterday. In the Senate on the 14th September the Postmaster-General (Senator Ashley) answered questions which hadbeen asked upon notice by an honorablesenator. His answers, in substance, were identical with that which I, as Prime Minister, gave to the honorable member for Wilmot. The only agreement of which the Government had knowledge, was one which had been entered into by the Adelaide Central Methodist Mission with His Grace the Archbishop of Adelaide and the Honorable Robert Stanley Richards, M.P., on behalf of the Workers’ Weekly Herald.

Mr Menzies:

– What was the date of that agreement?

Mr CURTIN:

– The 17th May, 1943. In the Senate, the Postmaster-General said that the Government was not a party to that agreement, but that a copy of it had been submitted as evidence of compliance with the recommendations of the Broadcasting Committee before the licence was granted, and that therefore he was in a position to state the terms of it. That is the only agreement of which the Postmaster-General had knowledge, and it formed, the basis of my answer to the honorable member for

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order ! This form of question and answer is resolving itself into a debate. The only question is, whether or not the House will grant permission to have the text of the agreement appended to the explanation of the Prime Minister.

Leave granted.

Memorandum as to terms and conditions of agreement between His Grace, the Archbishop . of Adelaide, Reverend Samuel Forsyth, on behalf of Central Methodist Mission and the Honorable Robert Stanley Richards, M.P., on behalf of Workers’ Weekly Herald relating to broadcasting stations known as 5KA and 5AU. In contemplation of the renewal by the PostmasterGeneral of the broadcasting licences for 5KA and 5AU and in further contemplation of the completion of a certain agreement whereby Adelaide Central Methodist Mission and Workers’ Weekly Herald become the legal owners of all the shares (except one) in the companies to which the said licences were hitherto issued the parties hereto are agreed as follows: -

The Archbishop of Adelaide will forthwith intimate to the Postmaster-General that he withdraws his application for a broadcasting licence in South Australia and that he offers no objection to the renewal of the licences in question.
Upon the renewal of the licences and upon the broadcasting stations in question commencing transmission, the Archbishop of Adelaide and such persons as he may select shall be entitled to broadcast from the stations mentioned freeof all charges (except for land lines to the transmitting point where necessary) for a period of three-quarters of an hour on each Sunday evening between the hours of 8.30 p.m. and 9.15 p.m. provided that if the operating companies’ arrangements will permit a f urther period of fifteen minutes shall be granted to the Archbishop of Adelaide on the same terms and conditions and not necessarily on Sundays.
This arrangement is to be interminable, the intention of the parties being that, subject to the provisions of this agreement, it shall operate during the currency of the licences in question and any renewals thereof and shall be binding upon both Central Methodist Mission and Workers’ Weekly Herald and each of them and their respective successors or assignees or the purchasers of their interests in the companies concerned.
The Archbishop of Adelaide undertakes that no matter will be broadcast during the Catholic time which could reasonably be regarded as offensive or insulting to or in the nature of an attack upon the MethodistChurch, the Church of England or any church associated with the Council of Churches.
The Archbishop of Adelaide further undertakes that if any circumstances arise by virtue of which the retention of the Catholic time (either in whole or in part) is considered by Central Methodist Mission likely to jeopardize the commercial success of the stations or the value of Central Methodist Mission’s interest in the companies concerned or the sale thereof he will be willing to consider abandoning suspending or varying his rights herein.
Central Methodist Mission undertakes that no matter will be broadcast from the stations which could reasonably be regarded as offensive or insulting to or in the nature of an attack upon the Catholic Church.
The parties mutually agree that this memorandum containsthe basis of their agreement and they bind themselves to carry out and perform such acts matters or things as may be necessary to give a practical effect and business efficacy to their agreement.
This agreement shall be void and cease to be binding upon any of the parties hereto in the event of the broadcasting licences mentioned not being renewed by the 30th June, 1943 (or such later date as the parties may mutually agree), but otherwise to stand in full force and virtue provided that if the licence for station 5KA only shall be renewed within such time this agreement shall apply to that station only.

Dated at Adelaide this 17th day of May, 1943.

Mr MENZIES:
Leader of the Opposition · Kooyong

– by leave - I am quite sure that I shall avoid confusion in relation to the matter that was debated yesterday if I point out that the agreement from which I quoted, was an’ agreement of sale - the principal operative agreement - made on the 5th February, 1943. The document to which the Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin) has referred would appear to be an agreement made on the 17 th May, 1943. In order that those two documents may be quite distinct, I ask leave to incorporate in Hansard, that from which I quoted yesterday.

Leave granted.

Memorandum of Agreement made the 5th day of February, 1943, between the following parties: -
1. Sport Radio Broadcasting Company Limited (hereinafter called “the Adelaide Company “ ) .
2. Port Augusta Broadcasting Company Limited (hereinafter called “the Port Augusta Company”).
3. The beneficial owners of all the issued shares in each of the said two companies except one Elizabeth Collins who is the holder of one share of £1 in the capital of Sport Radio Broadcasting Company Limited (such owners except the said Elizabeth Collins being hereinafter referred to as “ the shareholders “ ) .
Each of the parties agrees on the terms set out herein with all the others of them or with such other party or parties as may be affected.
The shareholders agree to sell all their shares in the said companies unencumbered to Workers’ Weekly ‘Herald and Adelaide Central Methodist Mission for the sum of £8,500. 4.Theshareholders warrant that at the date of settlement the assets of both companies will ‘be free of encumbrances except in the case of the Adelaide Company the contingent or accruing liability under its commencing dated 1st day of July 1937 from H. C. Richards Limited and in the case of the Port Augusta Company the mortgage to Florence Boully and the shareholders further warrant that at the date of settlement the companies will owe no debts except those mentioned in this paragraph.
All debts or sums except those mentioned in this paragraph shall bo paid by the Companies to the shareholders.
Subject to the next succeeding clause the Companies will continue to own until final settlement all the assets of which they are now possessed.
The shareholders will use their best endeavours to replace microphones and other chattels moved from the premises but shall not be under a liability to replace anything which has been sold or cannot now be found.
The motor vehicles formerly used by the Companies and the assets (including books, &c.) used in connexion with the Merrymakers’ Club and the Rendezvous Cafe are not included in the assets of the companies for the purpose of this agreement as the ownership of those chattels has already been assigned to other persons.
The Adelaide Company will continue to carry on the lease referred to in paragraph 4 hereof. The shareholders warrant that the rent payable under the lease and the interest payable under the mortgage due by the Port Augusta Company will be paid or adjusted up to the date of settlement.
The shareholders will leave the sum of £550 in the hands of Messrs. AldermanReid and Brazel the solicitors for the shareholders for a period of six months after the date of settlement in order to answer any warranties given in this agreement and it shall be applied as they think proper in answering every warranty of which there may be a breach by either of the Companies of the shareholders.
The present litigation between the two Companies mentioned and the PostmasterGeneral will (if possible) be discontinued by the present solicitors who shall continue to act for the Companies at the expense of the shareholders, but if the actions cannot be discontinued, the shareholders will indemnify the companies against any costs incurred in the litigation.
The shareholders and the Directors of the Companies will pass such resolutions and sign such transfers and other documents as may be required in order to perfect and complete this transaction.
The purchase price of £8,500 shall be payable by Adelaide Central Methodist Mission which shall have the right and ( subject to the later terms of this agreement) the duty to take up shares in any further capital issues by either companies beyond the present shares or to make any loans to either Company which may be necessary to provide funds to carry on.
The number of shares hereby purchased shall be divided as follows: - one-fifth to Workers’ Weekly Herald and the balance to Adelaide Central Methodist Mission. The blocks of shares shall be kept separate. There shall be five directors of each Company. The blocks of shares comprised of those held by Workers’ Weekly Herald and Elizabeth Collins shall elect one director and the other block shall elect four directors. The shares held by Workers’ Weekly Herald shall carry all the rights of the other shares except that, upon the dissolution or liquidation of the Company (except for reconstruction) the holders of those shares shall not receive any liquidation dividend thereon until the holders of the other four-fifths purchased under this agreement receive £8,500, and liquidation dividend thereon but subject to such payment the holders of all shares shall have such rights as are conferred by the Memorandum and Articles of Association.
Adelaide Central Methodist Mission shall provide up to £3,500 as further funds to enable the Companies to carry on either of the Companies as the Adelaide Central Methodist Mission may determine. If the funds supplied are by loan they shall carry 5 per cent, interest and be secured and repayable as may be determined.
The director nominated by the Workers’ Weekly Herald must be a person whose membership of the directorate of the Company shall not be likely to prejudice the commercial success of the Company.
The stations shall be run as nonsectarian stations, but there shall not be broadcast any advertisements concerning intoxicating liquor or gambling or moneylending.
Adelaide Central Methodist Mission shall be entitled to broadcast on the air through 5KA and 5AU free of charge for 30 minutes (not necessarily continuous) each week and also for one and and a half hours from 3 to 4,30 p.m. on each Sunday.
It shall be the policy of the Companies to broadcast freeof charge religious services over the stations twice on each Sunday and special church meetings on such other occasions as the directors of the Companies may from time to time determine giving to all recognized religious denominations a reasonable opportunity to share in the broadcast of such services and meetings but not so as to be likely to prejudice the Company’s commercial success. 20. (1) The Workers’ Weekly Herald on behalf of the Australian Labour Party shall be entitled to broadcast over the air through 5KA and 5AU free of charge -
1. for one half hour on each of two days in each week (included in which shall be 15 minutes of one evening of each week)
2. for one half hour, not necessarily continuous, after6.30 p.m. on each evening from the time when a writ has been issued for an election or by-election in South Australia either Federal or State, until the day of the election, for political and propaganda purposes. Such times need not be continuous but shall be as agreed.
1. The programs or matters shall be suitable for broadcasting and shall not contain matter which would interfere with the commercial success of the stations. This shall apply to each station controlled by the companies provided that the expense as regards 5AU is not unduly high.
2. The cost of providing such programs shall not be borne by the companies.
3. Except for such broadcast, the station shall not be so publicly identified with the Labour Party or any other political party as to be likely to interfere with its commercial success.
4. The stations may broadcast any political matter from any other political party which must be sponsored and paid for by such political party at ordinary rates.
5. The Workers’ Weekly Herald or the South Australian Branch of the Australian Labour Party, in addition to its free time, shall have the same but not greater opportunity for purchasing from the Companies time over the air as any other political party has.
6. The director representing the Workers’ Weekly Herald (or the South Australian Branch of the Australian Labour Party as hereinafter provided) shall take personal responsibility (which must not be controlled byany rules of the Workers’ Weekly Herald or the Australian Labour Party) for the matter which is broadcast pursuant to this agreement and his approval must be given, in advance thereof, of the matter to be broadcast and the person to broadcast.
Neither Adelaide Central Methodist Mission nor the Workers’ Weekly Herald nor the South Australian Branch of the Australian Labour Party shall be at liberty to sell or otherwise alienate or dispose of the right to any other person body company or association to broadcast during the whole or anyportion of the time mentioned in Clauses 18 and 20 hereof and in the event of any such party being unable to use the whole of any such times the portion so unused shall become available to the Companies for their own purpose. 22.T he first director selected to represent the Workers’ Weekly Herald shares shall hold office for a period of 3 years, except that a change may be made with the consent of all the other directors, but not otherwise.
The shares to be held by the Workers’ Weekly Herald are held in trust ‘by that newspaper body for the South Australian Branch of the Australian Labour Party so that if Workers’ Weekly Herald shall cease to exist or it shall not be able to elect a director, the shares shall be put in the name of the South Australian Branch of the Australian Labour Party which shall thereupon become entitled to be registered as owner of them, but in that event the director shall be elected not by the Party but by its executive for the time being. Subject to that limitation the Workers’ Weekly Herald or the South Australian Brunch of the Australian Labour Party may make its own rules for the election of its director.
The Workers’ Weekly Herald and the South Australian Branch of the Australian Labour Party shall withdraw their application for the licences in respect of the stations known as 5KA and 5AU and shall use their best endeavours to procure a renewal of those licences to the Adelaide Company and the Port Augusta Company respectively.
Adelaide Central Methodist Mission shall not later than 31st March 1943 pay to Messrs. Alderman Reid and Brazel the said purchase price of £8,500 in cash, or, at the option of Adelaide Central Mission, by delivering to that firm an irrevocable undertaking by the Savings Bank of South Australia to immediately pay to Messrs. Alderman Reid and Brazel the sum of £8,500 when called up by that firm to do so within three months from the date of such undertaking. The said money shall be held by Messrs. Alderman Reid and Brazel pending the completion of the purchase. Upon payment of £8,500 or the delivery of the Bank’s undertaking the shareholders shall forthwith sign and cause to be registered the transfers of the said shares to the purchasers as aforesaid or their nominees and shall then deliver to Messrs. Alderman Reid and Brazel the share certificates and thereupon the transferees shall sign and deliver to that firm transfer in blank of the said shares which transfers together with the certificates shall be held by them pending the completion of the purchase.
When the provisions of the preceding clause shall have been carried out, Messrs. Alderman Reid and Brazel shall apply id the proper authorities for the renewal of the broadcasting licences or the issue of new broadcasting licences to the Companies and immediately upon the licences being renewed or issued the purchase of the shares shall be completed by Messrs. Alderman Reid and Brazel paying to the shareholders the purchase money and delivering to the purchasers the share certificates and cancelling the said blank transfers and thereupon the shareholders shall give the purchasers possession of the broadcasting stations and the chattels of the Companies as hereinbefore provided.
If the application for the licences is refused or (at the option of the Adelaide Central Methodist Mission) if the application is not disposed of by the 30th April 1943 this transaction and this agreement shall be terminated and of no effect whatever and the moneys shall be repaid and the shares retransferred to the shareholders and no party shall forfeit any sum or pay any damages or incur any liability in respect of this agreement provided that if a licence is obtained for 5KA and not for 5AU the transaction shall continue as regards the Adelaide Company and the shares therein but not as regards the Port Augusta Company and the shares therein and the purchase price for the shares shall be reduced by £500.
This agreement is subject to the National Security Act and Regulations and shall be carried out in accordance with those regulations. 29. (a) All parties shall join in obtaining any necessary consents permits or extensions which may be required to carry out this agreement.
1. Except where specifically mentioned, any dispute arising out of the conditions of this agreement shall be decided by Harry Graham Alderman until the things to be done under this agreement are finally completed and he shall have power to decide and direct any dispute or matter raise or thing to be one so that nothing shall prevent the due completion of this transaction in accordance with what he knows to have been the spirit of the discussions preceding the signing of this agreement.
2. Thereafter any dispute between the holders of the respective groups of shares shall be decided by arbitration under the Arbitration Act.
Adelaide Central Methodist Mission and Workers’ Weekly Herald hereby undertake and agree that no person who is or has been a member of Jehovah’s Witnesses or any organizationor body allied to or associated with Jehovah’s Witnesses shall have any interest (financial or otherwise) in the shares hereby acquired and they agree that no transfer of any such shares shall be registered if thereby any such person would acquire any such interest.
Adelaide Central Methodist Mission and Workers’ Weekly Herald each warrant to the other that no person shall be the holder of any shares in the Companies whether in his own right or as trustee for any other person or body nor be engaged in any capacity in the employment of the Companies who is or was a member of or in any way associated with the bodies or associations known as Jehovah’s Witnesses or the Adelaide Company of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

In witness whereof the parties hereunto have hereunto set their hands and seals respectively on the day and year first hereinbefore written.

page 1134

QUESTION

AUSTRALIAN ARMY

Private J. Wilson:

Mr DALY:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Is the Minister for the Army able to reply to the question that I asked about a week ago, in reference to the case of Private J. Wilson, who was sentenced to hard labour for five years in Goulburn gaol on a charge of mutiny?

Mr FORDE:
Minister for the Army · CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND · ALP

– I have carefully considered the file, and have prepared a statement on the matter. It is somewhat lengthy, and, with the permission of the House, I shall have it incorporated in Hansard.

Mr Abbott:

– Is the file in the Library? I have asked for it in the last three days, only to be told that it had not arrived.

Mr FORDE:

– The honorable member misunderstands me. I have been asked to make a statement on the case of Private J. Wilson, and am prepared to do so. The whole matter has been surveyed, and the statement would take perhaps twenty minutes to read. As I do not wish to occupy time unduly, I shall have it incorporated in Hansard with the leave of the House.

Leave not granted.

Later:

Mr ABBOTT:

– Will the Minister for the Army lay on the table of the Library to-day the file giving the military record of Private J. Wilson?

Mr FORDE:
ALP

– Yes, I shall be pleased to do so. I made the file available to several honorable members who were interested in the case. I had the file completely reviewed, and a statement prepared which would take me probably from 20 to 25 minutes to read.

Mr McEwen:

– Does the statement embody any new decision with respect to Private J. Wilson ?

Mr FORDE:

– The whole of the file will be placed in the Library, and any representations which the honorable member desires to make can be made. With the consent of honorable members, I shall incorporate the statement in Hansard. It is as follows: -

NX18309 PRIVATE j. WILSON 2nd/17th AUSTRALIAN INFANTRY BATTALION.

I wish to refer to the case of a Private Wilson, who was sentenced to a term of imprisonment of five years for mutiny. The case was mentioned in the House on 13th September, 1944, by the honorable member for Martin (Mr. Daly) and by the honorable member for Moreton (Mr. Francis), and has been the subject of agitation in the press during the last few days.

It is with great regret that I make this statement, but in view of the wide publicity given to one side of this case in a section of the press and strong allegations made against the Army, I feel that it is my duty to place the full facts before Parliament.

I shall outline briefly the incidents which led up to Wilson’s trial. On the 7th October, 1943, the soldiers under sentence at the detention barracks at Grovely, in Queensland, decided that they would, as a body, refuse to obey any instructions given to them by their senior officers. It is understood that the reason for this refusal to obey orders was that the camp was alleged to be verminous and the food was alleged to be not up to standard. The refusal of duty occurred in more than one compound of the camp, but I shall confine myself to the incidents which took place in the compound in which Wilson was detained. Orders wore given by a sergeant on the staff of the Detention Barracks, for the soldiers under sentence to fall in for morning parade. This order was not obeyed. The order was then repeated by an officeron the staff and again was not obeyed. Later, another officer on the staff spoke to the men without result.

The sergeant then gave instructions that those men who had regular duties allotted to them should carry on with those duties. Some men complied - others did not.

About 11 o’clock in the morning the Assistant Adjutant-General at Head-quarters, Queensland Line of Communication Area, who is responsible under the General Officer Commanding for matters of discipline affecting the whole of that area, went into the compound, and advised the men of the seriousness of the action which they had taken. He said that he understood that the men had refused to carry out orders given, and that their action amounted to mutiny. He said that he understood that they considered they had grounds for complaint, but that he would not listen to their complaints until they were put forward in the usual way. He then informed them that the midday parade would be summoned at the usual time by the sounding of a bugle, and that those who attended would be given an opportunity to voice their complaints. He then left the compound. At the usual time, the midday meal was served, and at 1.30 p.m. the bugle was blown for the midday parade. The men did not fall in.

An hour later, Major Cummins went in to address the men again. He informed them again, amidst interjections, that their conduct amounted to mutiny, and that they must obey the order which had been given. He then told the men to pick up their kits and move into the cell blocks. Some of the men moved towards their kits but none entered the cell blocks.

Major Cummins then said, “ I feel certain that all of you do not want to be participants in a mutiny. Any man who is prepared to work fall out in front “.

In response to this order, about a dozen men fell out. They were then marched off and put to work.

Major Cummins then repeated his order to the men to move into the cell blocks.

None of the men then assembled obeyed this instruction. Soldiers from a nearby field detachment were then brought into the compound under the command of one of their officers, and they surrounded the men in the compound. This officer said that he understood that the soldiers under sentence had refused to obey Major Cummins’s order. He said that his instructions were to see that the men carried out that order. To do so, he would give his men certain orders, and his men would certainly carry those orders out. Major

Cummins then repeated his order to the soldiers under sentence to move into the cell blocks, and the order was obeyed.

On the following morning, the men were fed and paraded, one hut at a time. Ninety men decided that they would resume work, leaving 81 who were each individually ordered on parade, but refused. It was then decided that those who refused should be put on charge sheets.

It has been suggested that the incidents which I have outlined do not amount to mutiny. Mutiny is defined at page 7 of the Manual of Military Law as meaning “ collective insubordination, or a combination of two or more persons to resist lawful military authority “.

The essential constituent of the offence is combination. One man cannot mutiny. It needs more than one. The offence does not require that there should be actual or threatened violence. Members of the forces who agree to, and in fact collectively do refuse to obey a lawful order are guilty of the offence of mutiny.

It must be borne in mind, also, that the men in question were all serving sentences of detention. Honorable members are aware that good discipline is the life-blood of an army. But it is more than ever necessary in the case of men who are undergoing sentences of detention for military offences. Any laxity so far as they are concerned could quickly lead to riot and open insurrection with consequences which may easily be imagined. It will be appreciated then that the danger is more imminent where soldiers under detention combine to resist authority.

We come now to the question: “What caused the trouble ? “ It was alleged that the men’s action was intended as a protest against what they claimed to be verminous conditions in huts and inadequate rations.

The facts are that before the incidents of 7th October, 1943, complaints had come from soldiers at the Detention Barracks that the huts were vermin-infested.

As a result of these complaints an investigation was made, and vermin were found in one hut. The men occupying this hut were immediately removed and action was taken to cleanse it.

Temporary vermin infestation is unavoidable in detention barracks because the vermin are brought in by soldiers who have been arrested, often in civilian clothes after being absent without leave, in many cases, for considerable periods.

Detention barracks are constantly supervised by the Army medical authorities and preventive action by modern scientific methods is taken at frequent intervals to ensure that vermin infestation is eradicated.

The men had been removed from the hut affected before 7th October, and I understand that the hygiene squads were working in the barracks at the very time the mutiny was taking place.

So far as the food is concerned, a ration scale was laid down by Army dietitians for use in detention barracks in Queensland. The ration scale was practically the same as that for troops in static areas, except that it was plainer. It was certainly quite adequate. It contained, amongst other things, 1¾ oz. of butter per day, 12 oz. of fresh meat per day and 2½ oz. of sugar per day - all in excess of the civilian ration scale.

The main items were - 14 oz. of bread per man per day. 1¾ oz. of butter per man per day. ¼ oz. of suet per man per day. 2 oz. of cheese per man per day. 12 oz. of fresh meat per man per day. 18½ oz. of vegetables per man per day.

Two pieces of fresh fruit per man per week.

As honorable members will have calculated, this amounts to 51 oz., or 3 lb. and 3 oz. of food per man per day.

On the day in question, Major Cummins, the Assistant Adjutant-General at Queensland Line of Communication Area, attended mess parade in one of the compounds where trouble occurred. He stood beside the mess orderlies and personally satisfied himself about the food. He asked any men with real complaints to stand up. About six or seven men did. About ten or twelve times as many did not.

One man complained that he did not have enough butter. Major Cummins inspected his plate and said that there was enough. He pointed out that the men at the barracks were getting 12¼ oz. of butter a week. Honorable members will be aware that the present civilian allowance is6 oz.

Another man said that he had not had enough to eat. He could offer no satisfactory reason why he should not go up and get a second helping as 15 other men had done.

The others complained of the quality of the meal. Major Cummins tasted it himself and said that he “found it excellent”. The principal dish was a mutton stew. When it was being served out, he took particular notice of the fact that it contained a good proportion of meat.

The supervision of hygiene and rations in detention barracks is such that there could have been no ground for serious complaint at all. In any event, even if there were, that would still be no justification for the action taken at Grovely. There are methods well known to every soldier whereby complaints can be brought under notice. It is. moreover, a well-established principle that the existence of provocation does not, under any circumstances, justify mutiny.

Some capital has been made of the fact that Mrs. Wilson was not informed that her husband had been sentenced to imprisonment. I am aware of no requirement of law or usage which obliges the Army to inform a woman every time her husband is convicted of an offence.

I have yet to learn that the practice is universal in civil courts.

However, I would like to inform honorable members that on the day after Wilson’s discharge a “ variation advice “ was sent to Mrs. Wilson, c/o Post Office, Long Bay Jetty, that payments would cease on account of her husband’s discharge.

At that time an arrangement existed whereby the legal dependants of all members of the forces who were discharged whilst undergoing sentence of detention could, if in necessitous circumstances, be granted financial assistance on the following basis: -

Continuance of allotment and dependant’s allowance for one month; and thereafter;

An allowance amounting to £1 per week for wife and 6s. per week for each child subject to a maximum of 32s. per week.

These payments would not effect the wife’s entitlement to child endowment so that for each child after the first she would be entitled to an additional 5s. per week child endowment. The amount of 32s. coincides with the amount of pension paid by the Social Service Department to a widow with one or more children.

It will follow therefore that in the case of Mrs. Wilson, the gratuitous payment would coincide with the total of pension and child endowment normally allowed to a widow in similar domestic circumstances.

Mrs. Wilson was interviewed by a member of the District Accounts Office, Sydney and was acquainted with the details of the assistance that could be made available to her. But she declined to accept any further payments as she had been offered employment.

We come finally to the question of sentence. On this aspect of the caseI would recall to the minds of honorable members that mutiny is a very serious offence indeed. That is common knowledge.

I have previously drawn attention to certain factors which increased the gravity of the offence in this case. I have pointed out that the incidents took place in a detention barracks - the very place where soldiers are committed to undergo punishment for breaches of discipline. The danger of serious riot or insurrection in a detention barracks is greater than elsewhere. I have pointed out the quality of deliberation which stamped this offence - the deliberate refusal to parade despite the orders of a non-commissioned officer and two officers; the deliberate refusal of duty despite two warnings that what was being done was mutinous; the continued refusal on the following day. I have pointed out, too, that there were no grounds for serious complaint, and that in any event the existence of grievances is no justification for mutiny.

All these things have to be borne in mind in considering the question of penalty. It is necessary, too, to take into account the soldier’s previous record. Unfortunately Private Wilson’s record was bad.

On the15th November, 1940, he was convicted of sleeping at his post when acting as sentinel.

On the 12th January, 1941, he was sentenced to 28 days’ detention and fined £3 on a charge of striking his superior officer, and on two charges of conduct to the prejudice of good order and military discipline.

On the 7th November, 1941, he was sentenced to 28 days’ detention and fined £5 fur absence without leave.

Two months later, he was given two days confined to barracks for failure to attend parade.

On the 2nd March, 1942, he was sentenced to 28 days’ detention for drunkenness and conduct to the prejudice of good order and military discipline.

Twelve days later, he was found guilty of disobeying a lawful command of his superior officer.

On the 8th April, 1942, he was convicted of stealing property belonging to a regimental mess and of conduct to the prejudice of good order and military discipline.

Twodays later he was again found guilty of failure to attend parade.

On the 13th May, 1942, he was sentenced to 21 days’ field punishment for absence without leave.

On the 21 st September, 1942, he was found guilty of conduct to the prejudice of good order and military discipline.

On the 27th June, 1943, he was tried by court-martial and found guilty of absence without leave from the 16th April, 1943, to the 8th June, 1943, and was sentenced to nine months’ detention.

He was serving the sentence of detention at the time of the mutiny at the Grovely Detention Barracks.

Whilst I wish to cast no reflection on Private Wilson’s record of service in action, I would draw the attention of honorable members to the fact that there are very many other soldiers in the Australian Army who have excellent records of service in action, but who, at the same time, have discharged their responsibilities in other directions with greater fidelity than did Private Wilson.

Finally, on this question of penalty, I would draw attention to the fact that only three men were charged with mutiny, although many more were implicated. These three were singled out because they had been observed to be the ring-leaders.

The others who refused duty on the second day could have been charged with mutiny. But it appeared that they were not so active in the affair and were misguided and perhaps unduly influenced by the stronger spirits around them. They were not charged with mutiny, but with wilful defiance of orders.

The three men brought before general court-martial were all found guilty. Wilson was sentenced to five years’ imprisonment and to be discharged from the forces with ignominy.

The sentence was referred to Land Head-quarters for confirmation. At the time of confirmation, it was directed that the sentence be reviewed in October, 1945.

Subsequently, Wilson petitioned against his sentence. The petition was considered by’ the Judge-Advocate-General, who advised as follows: - “ I would recommend that the accused’s petition should be dismissed, but that his sentence be reviewed on the 19th October, 1945, with a view to remitting the unserved portion of his sentence, if the report of the civil authorities upon his conduct while in gaol is satisfactory, and that the petitioner be so informed.”

I would also remind honorable members that, at the time of the commission of the offence, Wilson was undergoing a sentence of nine months’ detention for absence without leave. That sentence was mode concurrent with the sentence of five years’ imprisonment.

The position therefore is that Wilson’s sentence will be reviewed in October, 1945, with a view to remitting the balance of his sentence if his conduct whilst in prison warrants that course.

page 1137

QUESTION

TRANSPORT OF STOCK

Mr McLEOD:
WANNON, VICTORIA

– Has the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture seen the statement of a member of the Victorian Stock Co-ordination Committee that, whilst Commonwealth action had been responsible for increasing by 250 a week the number of trucks available to stockowners in that State, the provision is still insufficient to meet every need ? Will the honorable gentleman make inquiries in order to ascertain whether or not the Victorian Railway Commissioners are giving full effect to the instruction of the Commonwealth that all stock offering must be transported?

Mr SCULLY:
Minister for Commerce and Agriculture · GWYDIR, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I understand that the Minister for Transport issued the definite instruction, through the Governments of Now South Wales, Victoria and South Australia, to the Railway Commissioners of those States, that, so far as was practicable within the scope of their truck capacity, they should transport all the stock that was offering. If full effect has not been given to that direction, and the Railway Commissioners have failed to make available the whole of their truck capacity for the movement of live-stock - which, we know, presents a most serious problem in the States mentioned - I shall bring the matter to the notice of the Minister for Transport. I am sure that he will ensure that full effect shall be given to his direction.

page 1137

QUESTION

INTERSTATE RAIL TRANSPORT

Use of Sleeping Berths

Mr HUTCHINSON:
DEAKIN, VICTORIA

– Will the Minister representing the Minister for Trade and Customs state whether it is a fact, as was recently reported in the press, that there would be enough tobacco and cigarettes for everybody in

Australia without rationing if 150 girls were made available to the tobacco companies for employment in their factories ? If that be a fact, will the Minister endeavour to comb out Government departments in order to see whether that number of girls could- be provided, so that increased quantities of tobacco and cigarettes could be made available and Commonwealth revenue thereby increased ?

Mr BEASLEY:
Minister for Supply and Shipping · WEST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I believe that there is some substance in the comment by the Minister for Labour and National Service regarding the need for more labour in the industry and the problem of absenteeism. The procurement of the female labour required) is difficult, as honorable members are aware. I shall refer the question to the Minister, and ascertain whether the difficulty can be overcome.

page 1139

QUESTION

AIRCRAFT PRODUCTION

Mr WHITE:
BALACLAVA, VICTORIA

– I draw the attention of the Minister for Aircraft Production to a report cabled from London and published in the press yesterday under the heading “Australian ‘Plane Order Deplored “. It referred to a leading article published in the London Daily Express, which said that £2,000,000 worth of civil aircraft had been ordered by Australia from America, although British manufacturers were in the market for Rolls Royce and Napier aircraft engines. In view of the fact that Great Britain has a proud record in aircraft production, can the Minister state the reason why this order was given, and why it was placed in the United States of America?

Mr DRAKEFORD:
Minister for Air · MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA · ALP

– The matter is a mystery to me. I have not read the report referred to, which appears to be based on a leading article in some overseas paper. A great many of the cables published from time to time on the subject of aircraft production seem to have a propaganda purpose. All that I can say is that I have no in,formation as to the order referred to in the cabled report. I shall have inquiry made, and shall endeavour to supply the honorable member with the information that he desires.

page 1139

QUESTION

COAL-MINING INDUSTRY

page 1140

QUESTION

BUDGET 1944-45

In Committee of Supply: Consideration resumed from the 20th September (vide page 1126), on motion of Mr. Chifley -

That the first item in the Estimates under DivisionNo. 1 - The Senate - namely, “ Salaries and Allowances, £ 8,480 “, be agreed to.

Mr WHITE:
Balaclava

.- The budget has been discussed from a variety of angles by honorable members whose prerogative it is to criticize this document, which is, in effect, the prospectus and financial statement of the Government. It is my desire that any criticism which I may offer shall be constructive, and helpful to the Minister against whose department it is directed.

We have reason to rejoice in the turn which the war has taken recently. France is now practically free, Belgium has been delivered, and the enemy is being fast cleared from Holland. The great cities of Paris and Rome breathe again, and our principal enemy is fighting for his very existence on his own soil. Victory in Europe is not far off. We should not forget, however, that there is still grim fighting ahead of us against an enemy whose forces are comparatively close to our shores. We know that, as soon as the European war is finished, the forces of Great Britain and of the other Allied Nations will be turned against the remaining enemy. But, although the war is receding from Australia, we should guard against apathy and selfsatisfaction. The unusual conditions which have prevailed during the last five years have encouraged slackness and inefficiency, and a general loosening of morals as well as morale. We owe a heavy debt to those who are still serving in the forces, and to those whose voices are silent, the prisoners of war. It is the responsibility of the Government to ensure that our men in the hands of the enemy shall be delivered from bondage as soon as. possible.

When we note some of the things which are happening in our midst, we may be pardoned for wondering whether the best effort of the nation is being exerted. We see conditions verging on industrial anarchy in some of our great industries, we see the Government pandering to those who are defying authority,, cajoling them and trying to appease them, and wc ask ourselves whether the Government is really doing its best. Many things have happened to weaken morale and to cause us to lose face among the nations. The division of the Army into two sections, the Australian Imperial Force and the Militia, is an old story, but the effects are still being felt. Trade unionism, which was begun with the best of motives, has become a sort of industrial Frankenstein which threatens to destroy its creator. Trade union leaders, indoctrinated with alien policies, have broken with the tradition upon which the Labour movement was founded, and are defying and dominating governments. I do not mention these matters in a party spirit, but because I desire only the good of the Commonwealth. We should remember that Australia has been very fortunate in this war. We have not been through the fire. We have had heavy losses among our fighting men, but apart from them we have escaped. The name of our fighting men stands high among those who can judge them. Renown has been won by the Australian Imperial Force in the Middle East, in Greece, Crete, Malaya, and New Guinea, by the Royal Australian Air Force in the skies all over the world, and by the Royal Australian Navy on the seven seas ; but, speaking as one who has been in Great Britain and thereabouts for the last two years or so, I can say that there is a great deal of perplexity among people there regarding Australia’s national outlook. They cannot understand why governments do not measure up to the fine standard of the men whom they have sent abroad, and among those men themselves there is bewilderment as to why one standard of duty is demanded of them, whilst a totally different standard i3 regarded as sufficient for others. They cannot understand why there should be two standards of punish ment. If a man in the Army commits an offence, he is punished without question, but when trade unionists break the law nothing is done. Only to-day, a threat was made to close down important steel-works because disciplinary action had been taken against three men. There .have been strikes on the coal-fields for trivial reasons. Mines have been held up by irresponsible boys, and all these, things are condoned by a weak government.

Mr Calwell:

In the transition from war to peacetime conditions, Australia should endeavour to overcome the disruption that has occurred in our preferential trade with the United Kingdom. Private industry will not deserve to survive if it fails to recognize its responsibilities, and is actuated only by the profit motive. Unions that foment industrial trouble should be induced to become shareholders in industry. Employees should be in duced to invest some of their savings in industry, and those investments could be subsidized by the firms concerned, as is happening in some companies now. In such ways, the Government could assist in preserving industrial peace, instead of keeping capital and labour in hostile camps, for ever at one another’s throats. Australia must place all possible trade in the way of the United Kingdom. To supply large quantities of equipment to Soviet Russia, the United States of America, and China, and to equip its own forces, Great Britain converted the whole of its industries to the manufacture of arms, munitions, and goods for war purposes. As the result of that all-out war effort, Great Britain has lost the credit and securities which it formerly held in other countries. Before the war, the United Kingdom purchased 56 per cent, of our exports, and if the pre-war basis is to be restored, Australia must assist the Mother Country to recover those credits.

The immense organization known as the Division of Import Procurement should be examined. This branch has outgrown its parent, the Department of Trade and Customs. That tendency is noticeable in many government departments. When a director is appointed, he proceeds to appoint sub-directors, they appoint their staff, and a huge organization is created almost overnight. All goods coming to Australia seem to be compressed through the bottleneck formed by the Division of Import Procurement. In war-time a great deal of that regulation is undoubtedly necessary, but in peace-time it will not be required. This morning, I asked why an order for £2,000,000 worth of aircraft engines had been placed in the United States of America. Newspapers in Great Britain have protested against it, and this transaction may be an indication that more trade is being diverted in a certain direction than there should be. Australia is supplying to the United States of America goods at pegged prices. For example, Australian blankets are being supplied for less than £1 a piece, whereas the price of a similar article in the United States of America would be nearly £3. I should like to know whether the Division of Import Procurement is keeping a check on the cost of production in America of goods exported to Australia.

Mr Calwell:

– Of course it is!

Mr WHITE:

– Probably not to any great extent. Orders have been placed lavishly in certain directions. I urge the Government to issue a statement showing the transactions of this division, and the plans for dissolving it in the post-war period.

The Government should announce, preferably to a secret meeting of the Parliament, its defence plans-

Mr Calwell:

– The honorable member is the only person who desires a secret meeting.

Mr Holt:

– All members of the Opposition are in favour of it.

Mr WHITE:

– If the Minister were in his place more often, he would be aware of that. A secret meeting is necessary to enable honorable members to learn the Government’s intention regarding measures for the future defence of Australia. This war has taught us that, in a crisis, we cannot stand alone against an aggressor. Even if our population were trebled, Australia would still be compelled to base its defence upon regional, imperial or international arrangements, or a combination of all three. No doubt, Australia will co-operate with the Netherlands East Indies, but particularly with the United States of America, whose influence in the Pacific will undoubtedly grow. We welcome it generally, and because it will be a deterrent to future aggression. Local agreements, such as that which Australia made with New Zealand, have a sentimental and co-operative value, hut possess little real strength. Under the terms of the peace treaty when it is made, Australia will have definite international obligations. I should like to know the views of the Government on this matter, and I hope that a secret session will be held.

During this war, Australia has established a huge air force. The personnel number about 150,000 spread over multifarious units and many activities. Australian airmen are operating in Great Britain with some 500 units of the Royal Air Force, as well as in our own squadrons. Some of them were trained in Canada and Rhodesia, and excellent and extensive training has operated within Australia. The Royal Australian Air Force has, in fact, trained as many technicians as the number that actually existed in Australia before the war. That achievement reflects great credit on the technical training system of the Royal Australian Air Force. But now that the strength of the Air Force is beginning to taper off, airmen should be informed to what extent their services will be retained after the war. Men enlisted from all walks of life. Some interrupted their professional training, whilst others left their apprenticeship and trades. Many have distinguished themselves in combat, and demonstrated that they measure up to the best flying talent in the world. Some have held important commands, although none of them has risen, because of the set-up of the service, to very high commands. The Minister for Air should tell honorable members at a secret meeting of the Parliament the Government’s plans for the post-war strength of the Royal Australian Air Force. At the outbreak of this conflict, Australia had a small permanent air force and a very small citizen air force. After the war, there should be no vested interests in this service. The fact that a man is a member of the permanent air force should not mean that he should be, ipso facto, one of the administrators, or one of those holding a post-war command. The test of the Air Force should be efficiency. If some men are inefficient or too old, they should make way for the splendid young men who have performed so gallantly and brilliantly against our enemies in many theatres of war. Honorable members know the price that has been paid for their service and experience. At the earliest possible moment, the Minister for Air should invite applications from members of the Royal Australian Air Force who desire to remain in the service after the war. If he neglects this opportunity, many airmen on returning from overseas, and being offered only minor posts in the Royal Australian Air Force here, will feel inclined to accept positions in civil employment. If that happens the best men may be lost. Some data have already been obtained by a statistical questionnaire regarding the number of men who desire to remain in the Air Force, but more definite information is required. Great Britain has already formulated the conditions under which men may serve after the war, in fighter, bomber, coastal and transport units of the Royal Air Force, in order to maintain an efficient service. Australia must endeavour to retain the services of men with excellent records, irrespective of whether they are permanent or “ duration “ men, in order that the Royal Australian Air Force may live up to its highest traditions.

Nearly a year ago,, the Government appointed an inter-departmental committee to inquire into Australia’s postwar requirements for the development of civil aviation. But, apart from little leakages in the press from time to time about some method of international control of the principal air routes of the world, no announcement of government policy has been made. This inordinate delay is inexcusable. When I asked a question on this subject recently, the Minister for Air replied that he was not interested in the civil aviation companies, which were quite capable of pressing their own claims. I have no personal interest in the particular claims of any civil aviation company, but for 30 years I have done my utmost to foster all branches of aviation, including the Royal Australian Air Force, commercial air-lines, the “ flying doctor “ service, and aero clubs. Australia, more than most other countries, will profit by the development of civil aviation. The isolation of this continent is rapidly being removed. Whereas it is now commonplace to cross the Pacific or the Atlantic, 30 years ago it was exceptional to fly 100 miles. With the distances between countries diminishing so rapidly in that way, Australia should be alive to every development in aviation and should not be “ left at the post “. In the press this morning, I read that Pan-American Airways, a powerful enterprise, is making plans to operate international air routes. It will seek franchises in many directions. But Australia’s development primarily depends upon modern transport, particularly air services, so that we- must be active or we shall be left. We shall overcome isolation, not only internationally, but also internally, by developing civil aviation. For the past fifteen years I have urged improvement of the air service to Canberra, but it is still inadequate. Two or three more planes should be put on this service, particularly in view of the bad railway service to Canberra. In Bulgaria I saw railway systems -which would put to shame the service from Goulburn to Canberra, which reminds me of one railway in Turkey constructed by German contractors who routed it all round the country in order to avoid the high cost of construction over mountains. The line to Canberra rambles unaccountably around New South Wales.

Mr Drakeford:

– What did the Government which the honorable member supported do to remedy the position during the period of widespread unemployment?

Mr WHITE:

– I am urging the Government to improve both air and rail services to the National Capital. During the depression I put before Cabinet a proposal that the Government should construct a railway from Yass to Canberra. Of course, that was an old proposal. It did not originate with me. However, all sorts of difficulties were raised by the Government of New South Wales, with the result that the project was not proceeded with. I again urge the Government to proceed with that work, and also to improve the air service to Canberra, not only for the convenience of members of Parliament, whose duty brings them so often to Canberra, but also because the existing services are a disgrace to the nation. Visitors from overseas coming to the National Capital about which they have heard so much, receive a very unfavorable impression of our transport . services. They change from a very excellent train at the Victorian border to one which just meanders along all through the night, and eventually they reach the capital under the worst possible conditions. The Minister for Air (Mr. Drakeford) and the Minister for Transport (Mr. Ward) should consider proposals to provide more efficient transport services to Canberra.

I avail myself of every opportunity to deal with the subject of migration. All of us are aware of our urgent need to increase our population. We realize that with a population density of only two persons to the square mile we shall be in constant danger, regardless of the standard of training of our manpower for defence. Therefore, we must encourage large-scale migration, choosing, of course, the most suitable migrants. Australians who visit Great .Britain receive the impression that many Britishers believe that Australia does not want British immigrants. They have some reason for that belief, despite the efforts of patriotic Australians to show that it is not justified. The Government should bring forward definite proposals with respect to immigration. As a first step, possibly it could attract many British, American and Canadian airmen who have been closely associated with Australian airmen in this war. Some of our air training schools, perhaps, could be used as staging places to enable overseas airmen who migrate to Australia to become gradually acclimatized and acquainted with our conditions before settling here permanently. I also recommend short-range schemes such as child migration. The Fairbridge scheme has proved an outstanding success. [Extension of time granted.’) The Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin) has said that he favours a scheme of child migration. Perhaps that scheme could’ be undertaken immediately so as to start the flow of British. children to this country even before the cessation of hostilities. We can also look to continental countries where the refugee problem will be most acute after the war. Many people who have suffered the horrors of war will want to start life anew in another country. The Government should immediately evolve plans to meet these possibilities.

T heartily support the observations of the honorable member for Deakin (Mr. Hutchinson) on the subject of education. The Commonwealth can render very substantial assistance to the States in this field. However, in the past we have always been parsimonious with respect to education. The provision of the best facilities for the training and development of the mind, body, character and spirit of our young should be one. of our first ambitions. The honorable member for Deakin pointed out that we now expend £22,000,000 a year on, oldage pensions. That service is very humanitarian. However, it is more or less salvage work, whereas, if we are to progress, we must make adequate provision for the education of our youth. The Commonwealth has great financial resources and should endow the Education Departments of the States in order to enable them to raise the standard of their curriculums. We have educationists among the best in the world. The Government should utilize their knowledge and guidance by establishing a permanent advisory body on education, similar to the set-up of the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, with a director in nach State. The cause of education could be furthered by establishing a liberal system of bequests and scholarships. The Rhodes scholarships could be taken as an example in this respect and something similar should be made available to girl students. The Rhodes scholarships have not only done a great deal of good for those who have won them, but also benefited the countries from which those young men have been drawn. The Government should give special assistance in respect of technical education also. Following the cessation of hostilities, existing munitions factories will be left on its hands. Already an authority has been appointed to dispose of surplus war material. In the disposal of the machinery in those factories, the technical education authorities in. each of the States should) be given the first opportunity to choose such of it as is suitable for educational purposes; and the Government should make that machinery available to the States free of cost. In this way we could do much to raise the standard of technical education, with great benefit to our youth. In 1936, I put before the Government proposals to provide technical training for men between the ages of 38 and 23 years who were then out of employment. This was on the lines of the vocational training system ; but the Commonwealth abandoned the scheme I proposed, and, instead, granted financial assistance to the Slates for the expansion of technical schools. The Government should also play its part in assisting in the education of adults with a view to raising the cultural standard of the community. In this respect, we can learn much from other countries, even from the Nazis. I have attended operatic performances in Berlin at which the admission charge was the equivalent of 6d., whilst in each village throughout Germany a peasant on paying1d. a week for six weeks became eligible for a seat at such performances, which were subsidized by the government. The object of that scheme, which operated in pre-Hitler days, was to give to the people music of the highest standard. “We can learn much about adult education also from Great Britain, where some municipal theatres are subsidized. I again urge the ‘Government to make the most of its opportunities in the interests of the nation as a whole to collaborate with the States on the subject of education generally.

It will not be disputed that our repatriation legislation is, on the whole, of a high standard. Recently, it was amended mainly by increasing the rates of pension. However, all honorable members admit that many anomalies still exist. TheMinister himself will admit that the act can be improved.

Mr Frost:

– Yes.

Mr WHITE:

-We must keep that legislation abreast of changing conditions. One amendment which I urge upon the Government, , and with which I shall deal in detail when the committee is considering the Estimates, is in respect of pensions paid to dependants of deceased soldiers. Honorable members know of cases of parents of soldiers killed in action, in respect of whom the former drew allotments, being refused a pension upon the deaths of their sons, because the father and mother were each in receipt of an income of £1 19 s. 6d. a week, or possessed property of a value up to £400 other than the house in which they lived. The property might be a block of land, possibly not realizable. Refusal of a war pension comes as a cruel shock to parents in such cases, particularly as they have been receiving allotments.In such cases, dependency is not automatic as in the case of the wife of a soldier. The Government should abolish the means test in such cases, or raise the income ceiling above £1 19s. 6d. At present, these people are placed on the same basis as the old-age pensioner. They should be enabled to continue to live at the standard at which they were living prior to the death of their soldier son.

On previous occasions I have said that some Entitlement Tribunals arc too adamant in rejecting applications for review of pensions. They adhere slavishly to certain rules, and to-day they have become almost dehumanized. They appear to pay no attention to the humanitarian aspect of claims for adjustments, whereas they should more readily give the benefit of the doubt to applicants, particularly when the record of an applicant is good. We know that after the lapse of a number of years, applicants find it difficult to procure evidence of the kind demanded by the tribunals. I have in mind the case of a returned soldier of the last war who was brutally battered by his captors in Turkey after being very seriously wounded in action. Upon his release he was broken in mind and spirit. Some years ago he died when he entered hospital to be X-rayed; but his death was certified as being due to other than war causes. His widow applied for a pension, but was unsuccessful. Knowing the facts of the case, I made representations on her behalf, but I failed to have the case reopened. I know that the powers of the Minister are limited, and I do not blame him.

Mr Frost:

– Several cases of that kind have been dragging for the past thirteen years.

Mr WHITE:

– Yes. I know how difficult it is to have cases re-opened. However, 1 was fortunate enough to succeed in another instance. It was very similar to the case I have just cited. It was the case of a widow of a soldier who had five children. If honorable members find it so difficult to move the tribunal when the evidence appears to justify a review, individual applicants can have very little hope of success in the face of these star chamber methods. I know that the members of the tribunals are returned soldiers, and I do not blame them individually. However, they are inclined to get into a rut. If they remembered that the Repatriation Act was meant to give justice to all those who have served, and to make good by assessment any disabilities which were suffered, the returned men would get a greater measure of justice.

Mr Frost:

– The returned soldiers have their representatives on the tribunals.

Mr WHITE:

– I know that is so, but I have a letter from the Returned Sailors, Soldiers and Airmen’s Imperial League of Australia objecting strongly in this case. The Minister knows that sometimes the opinions of the doctors on cases are more or less academic, given without the doctors examining the men concerned. If the department could make the tribunals more accessible to the public, particularly to the relatives concerned, the Minister’s troubles, and the troubles, of the men, would be lessened and a greater measure of justice would be done to worthy people. Another matter with which I wish to deal is the service pension. That was given originally to men who could not work; yet wives married after 1931 cannot receive a pension, although there is no such restriction on an invalid pension. That anomaly should be straightened out. Another restriction is that the service pensioner may earn only 12s. a week in addition to the 25s. of his pension. In this time of increased employment and labour scarcity, that condition might be waived or the limit raised, so that justice might be done to men who are having a hard time and would be glad to earn a little more in their declining years.

I hope that the Minister or the Government will soon make a statement on vocational training, which I cannot help thinking is not working as it should be.

Mr Frost:

– It will be working very shortly.

Mr WHITE:

– I hope so, because the Minister will be inundated with applications when demobilization begins. After the last war men went into industry under the vocational training scheme which, within limitations, worked extremely well. The men this time will have to be given adequate leave, handled psychologically, and then fitted into their places in the community. The department should use the best brains available, with the help of the Army Education Branch, to get the scheme going. I know that that part of the Government service which deals with rehabilitation has plans, but we want to see the actual training begun. In fact, I should like to see men undergoing vocational training now.

As to the budget itself, the concession for depreciation and deferred maintenance which the Treasurer has included is well meant. He recognizes’ that there is need for some allowance for machinery which will have worn out over the war years, but provision is already made in the income tax law for an allowance for depreciation annually. [Further extension of time granted^) It may well be that many businesses need increased allowances for depreciation over the wai” years. Some industries have worked two or three shifts a day, and transport and carrying companies have had so much extra work to do that their plant is much depreciated. If undertakings of that kind could make full allowance for depreciation already, the deferred maintenance concession may not be necessary, but the intention, which is to allow companies to re-equip for the post-war years, is a good one. There is, however, an added provision which may operate harshly. It will suit prosperous companies, but not those - and they are many - which are just able to carry on. I refer to the insistence by the Treasurer on the payment of deferred maintenance to the Treasury, to be used at some later time. That, as I say, is all right for those companies which have large reserves, or credits in the bank, but those who have to work on overdraft will be forced to borrow money at interest, and place it with the Government without interest, so that it may be used later on for their own maintenance. That aspect of the matter may not have occurred to the Treasurer. I suggest that he should accept the certificate of a qualified engineer and a chartered accountant that certain maintenance charges are needed, and allow the work to be done when the firm could afford to do it. If he insists now on a deposit for something that may occur in the future, he will simply cancel out the benefit of his own good intentions.

The concession by way of allowance for students up to the age of eighteen years will, I fear, be of little use. Probably all members have received letters from parents and university students, pointing out that at eighteen years of age the young people are only in their first or second year at the university. Unless the concession is granted up to the age of 21, it will be really of very limited application. I hope that the Treasurer will consider the desirability of extending it to that age when the Income Tax Assessment Bill is in committee.

We have within Australia definite domestic and national responsibilities, but we are also confronted with a wider responsibility. We are, as signatories to Unrra agreement, committed to supply large quantities of foodstuffs over many years to the European countries, and there may be schemes under the proposed World Trade Alliance for acquiring and distributing surpluses among nations which cannot afford to pay for the commodities. We shall have great responsibilities, also, because we shall be given place at the Peace Table. The terms of peace, and the obligations arising from them, will need the greatest thought and ability of the Ministers of whatever government is then in power. We may, therefore, well set up in this House a Foreign Affairs committee to assist in any proposal for foreign treaties. We have already before us a bill dealing with international finance, and we shall have many other international obligations besides Unrra. If we are to get the very best for Australia in the councils of the world, such a committee will be most useful. We have been given a splendid lead from the head-quarters of our own Empire. In the post-war scramble, do not let us forget our obligations. Not only must we support democracy where it operates at its best, but also we must remember that the British Empire has been, over the years, a practical league of nations which has come to the rescue of distressed peoples. We know that it has the ability and the personnel to do what is best and fairest in international matters. If it can work on a wide basis of unity by embracing in its counsels, in the most friendly way, the great power and influence of the United States of America, whose people to-day are in this war with us as sworn allies, let us help it to do so. Let us hope that the American people will always be our friends, because, without collaboration between the two great English-speaking countries - unless we can consult them about any little differences that exist - we may in another two decades find ourselves, no matter what other allies we may have, involved in a third world war. In view of all the obligations which must fall upon Australia, I make no apology for having brought before the committee these facts relating to both domestic and international affairs, in the hope that Ministers will consider them and find my suggestions useful.

Mr DEDMAN:
Minister for War Organization of Industry and Minister in charge of the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research · Corio · ALP

– It is not my intention to contribute at length to this debate. It is totally unnecessary for any Minister to add to the discussion, because most of the remarks made by members of the Opposition have been in commendation of the budget. I should not have risen but for some remarks made by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Menzies) and, at a later stage, by the honorable member for Balaclava (Mr. White) in regard to the scale on which Australia was sending food supplies to Great Britain. Their observations are a continuation of allegations which have been made from time to time by members of the Opposition, that the Government was not doing all that could be done to ensure that the maximum quantity of food was sent to the United Kingdom. The honorable member for Balaclava made some remarks about the country from which I come. I can assure him, and other honorable members opposite, that I have very close connexions in the Old Country, and I am as well aware as they are, perhaps better than they are, of the conditions existing in Great Britain at present. The Government has done everything possible to ensure that maximum quantities of food are sent to that country. For too long has the Opposition endeavoured to make political capital out of this issue, and it is high time that the allegations were once and for all completely and entirely debunked. The Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin) has recently returned from ‘ a mission to Great Britain, the United States of America and Canada. He was so impressed with the severity of rationing in Great Britain that he took steps to have the matter investigated, and took a great personal interest in the investigations, because he realized that everything possible should be done to ensure that increased quantities of food were sent to Great Britain if it could be done. He was prepared, and actually offered to send additional quantities of food of a certain kind to Great Britain, but he was advised by the very highest authority on transport in Great Britain that it was impossible to provide extra transport for further food from Australia to the Mother Country. I have the official cables on this subject, but for security reasons I do not propose to quote them. They have been made available to Opposition members of the Advisory War Council, and I think that they ought to have taken steps to advise the members of the Opposition generally of the true position in the matter, instead of allowing to be made these allegations which are entirely without foundation. The advice given to the Prime Minister in relation to the transport of food from Australia to Great Britain was - “It is estimated that at the very best, during 1945 and possibly the first half of 1946, Australia cannot be asked to make a special effort to increase the quantities of meat, butter and other dairy produce shipped to Great Britain, because the refrigerator tonnage available to carry these cargoes is limited, and will not permit of any significant increase of shipments over the level of recent months”.

Mr White:

– Has the Minister seen a letter from Mr. Bankes Amery stating that shipping can be found for all refrigerator cargo available for transport to the United Kingdom?

Mr DEDMAN:

– I am giving to honorable members a summary of the advice which was tendered to the Prime Minister when he was abroad, by the highest authority in Great Britain on the transport question. The summary continues - “ The reason why, in the present circumstances, an increase of the quantity of refrigerator cargo available in Australia for export to Great Britain would not result in greater imports by that country is shown simply by the following illustration: - A ship which makes a voyage of 5,000 miles can deliver twice as much cargo as one that has to travel 10,000 miles. The substitution of a more distant source of supply for a nearer source inevitably must result in a reduction of imports so long as additional ships are not available, and that is the position to-day. Australia is Great Britain’s most distant source of supply, and therefore an increase of imports from Australia would mean a reduction of the total quantity of goods carried to the United Kingdom “.

The position of wheat and sugar exports has been considered also. In regard to sugar, exactly the same conditions apply as in the case of refrigerator cargo. A ship plying between Great Britain and the Caribbean Sea can make two voyages to every one that could be made to Australia and back. These are the reasons why the Prime Minister was advised that very little, if anything, could be done to increase the supplies of food being transported from Australia to the United Kingdom. I trust that this will finally dispose of the allegations that are being made by certain individuals who are not in possession of the full facts.

Mr Menzies:

– The statements to which honorable members on this side of the chamber .have referred are the statements of Mr. Bankes Amery and Sir Thomas Gordon.

Mr DEDMAN:

– The- advice which I have summarized was given by a higher authority than either of these gentlemen. It is a statement by the highest authority on transport in Great Britain, to the highest governmental authority in Australia, namely, the Prime Minister himself, and I have shown conclusively that Australia is doing everything possible to ensure that the maximum quantities of food shall be sent to Great Britain from this country.

Mr DALY:
Martin

.- I agree with the Minister for War Organization of Industry (Mr. Dedman) that the honorable member for Balaclava (Mr. White) made a really remarkable speech in relation to the food situation. It is even more remarkable than it would appear at first sight, because the honorable member belongs to a party which in the course of the election campaign a year ago travelled the length and. breadth of Australia denouncing the Labour Government for having dared to impose rationing restrictions upon certain foodstuffs. If I am not mistaken, honorable members opposite even attempted to secure a popular vote by promising a substantial relaxation of rationing restrictions.

Mr White:

– I rise to order. My remarks are being misrepresented by the honorable member for Martin (Mr. Daly). .

The CHAIRMAN:

– Order ! That is not a point of order. If the honorable member so desires he may make a personal explanation at a later stage.

Mr DALY:

– Although honorable members opposite speak frequently of the assistance that should be given to the people of Great Britain - a sentiment with which I agree most heartily - at the same time, for their own political ends, they are prepared to sponsor demands for the modification of rationing restrictions, a course which must inevitably reduce supplies of foodstuffs available for Great Britain. It ill behoves honorable members opposite to bring forward arguments against the continuance of rationing, and to allege that in, this regard the Government is not doing its job. Before criticizing this Administration they should pay some attention to their own record.

The budget gives to honorable members an opportunity to discuss not only the financial situation of this country as summarized in that document, but also general problems which will confront the Government and the people of this country in the immediate post-war years. In the brief time at my disposal I shall deal with what I consider to be one of our most important problems - post-war overseas trade. In the course of this debate honorable members have had an opportunity to listen to some very notable speeches, particularly in relation to matters set out in tie budget. The Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin) set a very high standard, and dealt comprehensively with the many problems which confront this nation. He said quite a lot about our trade prospects in the post-war years. The lead which the right honorable gentleman gave was followed not only by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Menzies), but also by other honorable members, notably the honorable member for New England (Mr. Abbott). Apparently honorable members generally are well aware that the export trade position of this country when the war ends will be a tremendous problem. I believe that certain matters to which reference has been made require some elaboration, and that specific plans must be laid down for the post-war commercial development of this nation. We as a government and as a party are proud of the manner in which we have fostered the secondary industries of this country. In that respect it is fitting that one should pay a tribute to the right honorable member for Yarra (Mr. Scullin) for the part which he played in placing Australia’s secondary industries upon a sound footing. The Government which that right honorable gentleman led has an enviable record in that regard. Our secondary industries have been the backbone of our war effort. Bearing these facts in mind, we should review the situation carefully, and consider what steps must be taken to. foster our overseas trade in manufactured goods, so that when the war ends the output of our secondary industries may be maintained at its present high level. It must be remembered also, that in the immediate post-war years these industries will provide a large field of employment, particularly for young men and women, including apprentices. If full employment, and security of employment, are to be guaranteed to a majority of Australian workers, our secondary industries must be kept in production to their fullest capacity.

I agree with the honorable member for Wimmera (Mr. Wilson) that the shipbuilding industry should not only be kept in existence when the war ends, but also should be assisted to go on to even greater achievements than its record in these days of war. I have several shipbuilding yards in my own electorate, and a great number of my constituents are actively engaged in this industry. Our shipbuilders should be proud of their war-time efforts. They have laid the foundation of a great industry, and I trust that this Government will take steps to ensure that it will expand in the postwar years.

The rubber industry also is one which we should sponsor. In my electorate there is a big rubber works, and I am pleased to know that the Government is interested in tie development of synthetic rubber, because for some years after the war there will be a considerable shortage of natural rubber. The fact that the production of synthetic rubber is being investigated in this country shows that the Government is alive to the probability that it will not be able to obtain all the natural rubber that it requires from overseas when the war ends. This industry should have high, priority in plans for post-war development.

To-day the honorable member for Balaclava (Mr. White) read a statement relating to the purchase of aircraft overseas for Australian passenger airlines. That indicates that even at this early stage the wild scramble for post-war world markets is beginning. I am a little concerned as to what action the Government and private enterprise are taking to ensure that we shall have our fair share of the world’s markets, not only so that we may expand our secondary industries, but also so that we may retain a sound basis of prosperity, which we certainly cannot enjoy unless we develop a substantial export trade. We must plan for the future, and build up an overseas trade organization capable of coping with the markets which we know will be available to this country. We cannot delay any longer the task of laying down a definite plan upon which our post-war commerce shall be based. Neither can

Ave ignore the fact that great nations overseas, including the United States of America, the United Kingdom and Canada, due probably to their having resources greater than ours> and also having experts available, are not neglecting the work of organizing for future world trade, despite their preoccupation with war-time problems. Members of their commercial and diplomatic services and trade organizations, particularly in the Eastern countries, are taking steps even now to ensure that in the post-war years markets will be available, as they were before the war started. The Government must tackle this problem immediately, so that we shall not be left behind in the race. The task of organizing Australia’s place in overseas markets should be the full-time job of a Minister. Our present organization leaves much to be desired. True. we are in the midst of a war and many restrictions- have had to be imposed, but the existing control of our export trade will not be adequate for post-war requirements. To-day control is vested largely in the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture, but subsidiary control rests’ in the hands, of theDepartments of Supply and Shipping, and Trade and Customs. There is a lack of centralized1 authority, and no concerted approach to the problem of world markets has been made. I repeat that in my view the only solution is the appointment of a full-time Minister to carry out this job with the assistance of a trained staff. A commercial training service should be established to train men for this work in the years to come. Great Britain solved this problem many years ago by establishing the Board of Trade which handles problems arising out of the export trade of the United Kingdom, and has set up a commercial diplomatic service to train ambassadors of trade. We should face the fact that a strong team of expertly trained trade commissioners would be able to do far more ‘ than untrained and inexperienced men> could do to gain for Australia its fair share of overseas trade after the war. The men would need to be trained to cope with all aspects of the problem. This, of course, is a long-range viewIn the meantime the Government should be doing everything possible to ensure that Australia will not be found lagging behind in the scramblefor overseas markets, which undoubtedly will begin immediately after the war, if, in fact, it has not already begun. The Minister for Supply and Shipping (Mr. Beasley) was shocked to learn during his recent visit to America of the inadequate facilities provided there for our publicity representatives to do their work. The men were not inefficient, but their equipment was unsatisfactory in every way. Our officers should have equality of’ opportunity with those of other nations who do similar work. Adequate publicity staffs and a proper general set-up are essential in each country which offers prospects of substantial markets for our goods. Our trade commissioner in Egypt is, I understand, seriously overworked. He is required to deal not only with trade matters hut also with a variety of other subjects affecting Australian interests.

The stimulation of Australian trade in overseas countries is a full-time job for expert officers, and unless we appoint to do this work men of wide experience and the requisite knowledge and ability our trade will suffer. I make no reflection upon the capacity of officers at present doing this work, but in view of the situation that is likely to arise as soon as the war ends, it is essential that the Government shall make plans to increase the staff and equipment of our overseas trade commissioners. Sufficient funds will have to be provided for this purpose. It is evident that Great Britain, Canada and the United States of America are already making plans to regain their pre-war overseas trade. The East should, logically, provide a market for Australian export goods, but we must exploit the potentialities of the situation, or we shall assuredly lose our opportunity. Men who have recently returned from the East have informed me that our business representatives are working under serious disadvantages compared with those of other countries. Britain’s commercial agents, for example, are provided with high priorities for travelling to and from England on business missions, and South Africa’s agents are in the same position. Our men, on the other hand, very rarely have priorities that are worth much. Obviously frequent consultations will be necessary between our representatives and the Government and other commercial interests in this country, and I urge that steps be taken without delay to improve the conditions under which this work may be done.

I realize that in war-time it is impracticable to do all that could be done under peace conditions. “We must keep war interests paramount, and win the war at all costs. It must have first consideration in policy and planning, but, at the same time, proper attention should be given to the making of plans to meet post-war conditions in relation to trade. An article in yesterday’s Sydney Morning Herald, headed “ Changes in Industry “, made it clear that Great Britain, even in the midst- of its war preoccupations, is alive to the needs of the situation. I quote the following passage from it: -

To speed up the change-over of Britain’s 7,000,000 war workers to peace-time jobs, the Board of Trade is appointing Regional Controllers, whose main task will be to assist industry to resume the production of consumer goods and recapture export trade.

The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Menzies) said truly a few days ago that all the money in the world will not buy goods for consumers if the goods are not available to be bought. I desire that every means shall be employed to ensure that Australian goods will be available for purchase in markets that ought to be available to us beyond our own shores immediately after the war. South Africa, like Great Britain, is on the alert and is looking to the East for -markets for its exportable goods. Surely we shall not sit back idly and allow our prospects to vanish. For the sake of the young men and women who are to-day in the fighting services, and of future generations of Australians, the Government must discharge the obligation that rests upon it to exploit all the possibilities that exist in other countries to develop markets for our products. Unless it does so, we shall be left in the lurch. A national responsibility rests upon the Government and upon the Parliament in this connexion. Whilst the war must have first priority we should not fail to give appropriate attention to our overseas trade prospects. Our whole system of trade commissioners and commercial agents should be overhauled and reconstructed along lines that will yield the results that we desire. I hope that the Government will give careful attention to these remarks. I reiterate the need for training competent persons to develop our trade prospects, particularly in the East. Unless this be done we shall miss our opportunities in the post-war world. Australia expects to take its part in the rehabilitation of countries that have ‘been overrun by Germany and Japan during this war. Our primary producing industries may render invaluable service in this connexion. I believe also that our developing textile industries may play an important part in this connexion. But world markets must be fostered and proper steps taken to advertise our goods.

I commend the proposal of the Treasurer to provide gratuities after the war for service personnel. The honorable gentleman has suggested that the subject might well be considered by a parliamentary committee, and I endorse that view. Nothing that we can do can adequately express our gratitude to our service men and women for the magnificent job they have done in the defence of the nation, and they are fully entitled to a gratuity as a tangible expression of the nation’s admiration of their efforts. One suggestion I offer, though it may not be regarded with approval by the Treasurer, is that service men and women should bo granted relief from taxation for a period equivalent to that which they have spent on war service, up to a limit of, say, £500 per annum. That would be a practical approach to the problem. We must realize that gratitude expressed in terms of pounds, shillings and pence is practical. I consider, also, that more could be done immediately to indicate our appreciation of the work of the men and women who have been in the forces for a considerable period. We all realize that many problems are associated with the granting of releases from the fighting forces, but I advocate that men and women who have served for four years or more in the war should be granted 90 days’ leave immediately on full pay. Many of these people are veterans of the Middle East, who have also served in New Guinea, and it is not too much to ask that after the heavy burden they have borne, in many instances since almost the first day of the war, they should be granted the relief that I have suggested. This would be a much appreciated forerunner to any gratuity that may be provided after the war. I hope that this suggestion will be considered promptly by the Government.

The highest commendation is due to the Government for the manner in which it has expanded our social services during the war period. We are entitled to look back with pride on the Government’s achievements in this regard. Although, necessarily, attention has been concentrated on activities directly associated with the war, a worthy social service fabric has been woven into the national life, and substantial sums have been provided to meet welfare pay ments of one kind and another. Not only has the rate of invalid and oldage pensions been increased, but also widows’ pensions have been provided, child endowment has been maintained, and an unemployment and sickness benefits scheme, which includes the provision of free medicine, will take shape in the near future. In the days to come we shall look back with a great deal of satisfaction to the social service achievements of the war years. But we must not become self-satisfied regarding what has been done. In moving round my electorate and others I have been amazed at the degree of poverty that is still manifest in many directions. There is still a wide field of social service to be explored. We must remember, too, that our people not only have the right to expect unemployment and sickness benefits and other social services but also have the paramount right of full-time employment. It is the duty of the Government to ensure that in the post-war years work shall be available for every citizen. Our people who will return to civil life after the war will undoubtedly say, “Although we admire the unemployment and sickness benefits and the social services that the Government has provided, we want that sense of security which can come only from fulltime employment at a reasonable wage “.

Sitting suspended from 12.45 to 2.15 p.m.

Mr DALY:

– The Government has set a very high standard in that phase of our national life which is concerned with social services. The people expect to have full-time employment in the future, and to be able to provide out of reasonable and secure incomes, not only for their own welfare while they are able and willing to work, but also for their security in the later years of life. A national scheme of superannuation must be devised so that, when people reach the age of from 60 to 65 years, they will be assured of the necessaries of life. I hope that a future budget will make such provision. A national scheme should embrace not only the social services for which provision is now made by statute,, but also others that we may have in mind. While we are at war, it would be difficult to present a budget containing unorthodox features, or one that would meet with the approval of every one. At the present rate of progress of the European war, the position in this country will have greatly changed by the time the next budget is brought down, and we shall be able to look forward to days of peace. I shall expect a peace-time budget to provide for many more social services, the reduction of taxation, particularly on lower incomes, and the rehabilitation of the people generally in the post-war years. The present budget recites the achievements of the nation, and commendation for its compilation has been earned by not only the Treasurer but also his departmental officers. All the items should be examined carefully, and particular attention should be paid to the details. The document should be judged according to war-time considerations, and unorthodox changes ought not to be expected in these days of great national emergency.

Mr BRYSON:
Bourke

.-Since the Treasurer (Mr. Chifley) introduced his budget, many opinions, mostly of satisfaction, have been expressed. In preparing for the fifth year of total war effort, the honorable gentleman has submitted facts and figures which will meet with the approval of the general body of the people. It is pleasing to note that it is estimated that our war expenditure in the nexttwelve months will be less than it was last year. We must be grateful for this because it means that we have passed the peak and can look forward to something better in the not-far-distant future, even though the people are still being asked to make great sacrifices. It is also pleasing to note that additional taxation is not to be imposed on the community at large. I agree with other honorable members that the burden of taxation is as great as the majority of the people can carry, and in certain instances is too heavy. Some tax concessions are to bc given, and I agree entirely with what is proposed, whilst being sorry that the benefits could not be greater. The people on low incomes are taxed a little too heavily, and I look forward hopefully to the day when their burden may be lightened. A person on £2 a week ought not to be expected to pay direct taxation. A considerable portion of his income is taken from him by means of indirect taxation in various ways, and a further direct impost is too great a sacrifice to ask him to make. I hope that the Treasurer, when considering additional concessions in the future, will look first at the .taxation that is imposed on these people. The statutory exemption should be raised as early as possible. It is reasonable to ask for a considerable increase of the rebate that is granted in respect of a dependent wife and children, particularly for the married men with low incomes. In my opinion, the worker who is on or near the basic wage is making a much greater sacrifice than he should be asked to bear. I have heard from honorable members opposite the criticism that the man paying 18s. 6d. in the £1 is overtaxed, and is losing the incentive to earn. He is a lucky individual, because he is left with considerably more after the payment of tax than the majority of the community have before payment. Therefore, there is no need to shed tears on his behalf. Those who enjoy high incomes have the greatest stake in the country in the form of privileges and profits, and it is only reasonable and just that they should be required to make a big sacrifice, in order that their assets and profits may be protected. In time of war, the workers are called upon to make the greatest sacrifices. They have to take all the risks when men have to be sent into the front line in defence of this country, and all that it contains. Usually the men with the high incomes remain at home in order to safeguard what they have. Those who, in the past, have had a mere existence, are required to risk their lives, and unfortunately many of them have made the supreme sacrifice. Those workers who are left behind have to make an all-in war effort, and suffer many deprivations, in order that the interests and privileges of the wealthy section may be protected. I mention this matter because I believe that there must be a levelling both up and down in the post-war years. We must ensure that those who have taken the risks and made the sacrifices will find the country fit to live in, and will not be obliged to exist in a state of semi-starvation; that their conditions will be improved, and that social security will be enjoyed by all. In order that social security may be assured, those who are at the top must hand a portion of their possessions to those who are at the bottom. The levelling down must be done in that way. There must be a realization of the fact that money and profits are not everything. Australia is a great country, with wonderful potentialities, but if we do not safeguard” the welfare of the whole of the community, the nation will become an empty shell. As a medium of exchange, money is a useful commodity, but as a master it is dangerous at all times to any community. We must ensure that, in the post-war years, it will be merely a medium of exchange, and the servant rather than the master of the people. This country would then be fit for the heroes about whom we have heard so much; otherwise, the war will have been fought in vain.

In the early stages of the debate, 1 was struck by the practically unanimous approval of the budget. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Menzies) informed the committee that he was entirely in agreement with it, and that, had he been Treasurer, he would have expected to present a similar budget in the circumstances. Some of his supporters have endorsed that sentiment to a degree; but as the debate has proceeded, many of them have expressed the view that the budget is not commendable in some respects, thus disagreeing with not only the Treasurer, but also their leader. I have been reminded of the announcement made a year ago by the Leader of the Opposition, that he was the leader of a small number of supporters, but was able to assure the Parliament that he was leading a fighting Opposition. In my innocence, I believed that he referred to an Opposition that would fight the government of the day, but I was sadly mistaken. His statement during the present debate that he led a fighting Opposition is correct, but he and his followers are not fighting the Government. They are fighting amongst themselves, and even fighting their own leader. He is in the unfortunate position today that . he cannot command the loyal support of the members of his own party.

I have already referred to the necessity for easing the burden of income taxation which now rests on the shoulders of persons in receipt of low incomes.

The payment to invalid; and old-age pensioners is insufficient to enable them to enjoy a reasonable standard of life, and I urge the Treasurer to give early consideration to an increase of their pension. An extra few shillings a week could be granted without seriously interfering with a budget amounting to hundreds of millions of pounds. If £505,000,000 can be provided for war purposes, the granting of an additional £5,000,000 to enable the invalid and aged to enjoy a reasonable standard of comfort would not seriously overtax the financial strength of the Commonwealth. I have no desire to criticize the present Government or any other Ministry because of the manner in which the war has been conducted, or the expenditure which has been found necessary; but non-productive expenditure of hundreds of millions of pounds for the purposes of destruction is authorized almost without comment. I contend that similar sums should be provided in times of peace for the reproductive works necessary to ensure a fair distribution of the wealth of the Commonwealth among the whole of the people. Those who have been on the verge of starvation in the past should have a share of the good things which this country provides. All that is necessary for the welfare of the people is available in Australia, and we should ensure that that wealth is used in the best interests of the community. There should be a more equitable distribution of it, when the war is over, than there has been up to the present. Unless action is taken to secure that result, the sacrifices of the nation during the present war will have been made in vain.

Many references have been made in this House to the necessity for populating this vast country, which at present has only 7,000,000 inhabitants. We are making a total war effort, in order to preserve this country for the people of Australia and for the white races generally; but, owing to the war, we are losing the flower of our manhood. Adjoining countries peopled by coloured races are seriously over-populated, and our duty to increase the population of Australia, which could support probably from 30,000,000 to 50,000,000 people. is clear. Statistics show that by 1965 our population will have begun to fall, and we must do something about it. If this serious position is to be allowed to deteriorate further, we may as well walk out of this war to-morrow, because the winning of it will have no permanent effect on the Australian nation, which is gradually destroying itself. I hesitate to repeat the remark frequently heard that the baby is Australia’s best immigrant.

In planning for improved social security, provision should be made for the young life of the community as well as for the rest of the population. This country must be made good enough for children to live in. We certainly have a system of child endowment, which, to some degree, ameliorates the conditions of parents on low incomes; but the amount of the endowment provided is totally insufficient to enable a child to be maintained. The sum of 5s. a week is paid in respect of children other than the first child. Not only is that payment totally inadequate, but it ceases at the time when the cost of rearing the child reaches its maximum. The result is that the children of the workers go upon the labour marketbefore they are properly educated, and in many cases they accept dead-end jobs, if work is available for them at all. The raising of families must be made more popular with the people than it is at present, and the first thing to do to encourage family life is to provide a reasonable standard of living for the workers.

The basic wage must be increased. It is still at approximately the same standard as that fixed in 1907 by Mr. Justice Higgins, although the requirements of the people in the intervening period have increased enormously. The worker in receipt of the basic wage to-day is actually living at a lower standard of comfort than prevailed in 1907.

Mr Bowden:

– He does less work, too.

Mr BRYSON:

– He does considerably more, when the employer will provide a job for him. The employer allows him to work only a portion of his time and leaves him to walk the streets at other periods. That has had the effect of reducing his standard of living. The first essentials are the encouragement of family life, the raising of children, and a progressive increase year by year of the basic wage. The workers are providing bigger profits for the employers at present than they were in 1907. The introduction of labour-saving devices of various kinds has resulted in increased production from each person employed; but, under the present rotten system, the workers receive no benefit by reason of the increased profits of the employers. The whole of the extra profit is grabbed by the employers.

Mr Bowden:

– Also the losses.

Mr BRYSON:

– They are not often sustained. Employers receive up to 20 per cent, profit on their capital. In one industry a company, after watering its stock, paid a dividend after four years equivalent to 80 per cent, on its paid-up capital; but the employees in the industry - and their experience was typical of that of workers in all other industries - received no bonus whatever. The workers should get some benefit from improved methods of production and the mechanization of industry. The extra profit resulting from those improvements should be equally divided between the men who do the work and those who provide the money. That would encourage employees to marry early and raise families. In recent years, the average marriage age has increased, in the case of females, from 20 years to 27 years. The reason is chiefly economic. People cannot afford at an early age to marry and settle down, to make a home and to raise a family. As the average age of marriage has increased, so the possibility of large families has decreased, and this is one reason for the declining birth-rate. Not only must we ensure an adequate basic wage, but we must also ensure that when a worker marries he will be able to keep his family in comfort. When children are brought into the world they must have a reasonable chance of living their lives in decency and security. If we are to effect a restoration of family life, we must pay more than 5s. a week child endowment, and payment must continue until children are more than sixteen years of age. Australia is a wealthy country, and it is only necessary to organize our economic resources to ensure that the country’s wealth is used for the benefit of the community as a whole.

Id. the course of this debate there have been frequent references to immigration. I agree that we must encourage immigrants. If we are going to hold Australia we must get a bigger population, and get it quickly. In the past, we have looked to Great Britain for our immigrants, and an overwhelming proportion of our population is of British descent. However, we cannot in future look to Great Britain for any large number of immigrants. As a matter of fact, Great Britain is likely to be in a worse position than Australia. The British birthrate is declining so rapidly that it will be a matter of a few years only when the population will begin to decrease and there will be no surplus population to send -overseas. In fact, Great Britain will be inviting population from overseas. In order to encourage a higher birth-rate we must embark upon an educational campaign. We must improve the morals of the community and we must make people see that a large family is not something to be ashamed of - that the mother and father of eight or nine children should not be objects of derision, but should be looked up to as patriotic people, who are doing their duty by their country. Unless we make family life attractive, and bring people to understand that large families are in the best interests of the nation, we cannot expect an increase of population. Here in Australia we have a small population occupying a very large area. Unless we increase our population we are not entitled to hold this country. There are a great many coloured people living not far from Australia who are willing to settle here and to fill up the spaces which we are leaving’ idle. We are engaged in a total war. The people are working harder, fighting harder, and taking greater risks than ever before in the history of Australia. Why are they fighting? Why are they making such tremendous sacrifices? Is it so that the white race shall disappear from Australia within 100 years, or is it so that the Australian nation may survive and grow, populated by a white people living under proper conditions? If that is our ideal, we must do what is necessary to achieve it.

Many suggestions have been made by honorable members as to what the Govern-

AYr. Bryson. ment should dp. For instance, the honorable member for Indi (Mr. McEwen) made an impassioned appeal in regard to soldier settlement. The honorable member for Deakin . (Mr. Hutchinson) also spoke on this subject and urged the Government to avoid the mistake which had been made after the last war. He said that the Commonwealth Government should provide for the education of the people. Listening to the honorable member for Deakin, I wondered whether he had himself made a mistake, and was under the impression that he was addressing the Victorian Parliament. Everything which he sought to be done is within the power of the Victorian Parliament, but is not within the power of this Parliament. The Commonwealth has no power to acquire land and settle soldiers on it, but the State governments have. The very men who are now saying that the Commonwealth should concern itself with soldier settlement were stumping the country only six weeks ago telling the people not to give to the Commonwealth Parliament power to settle the soldiers on the land. I do not mind what a man’s views are so long as he is consistent, but honorable members opposite have been strangely inconsistent in this matter.

The referendum proposals were defeated, and I must accept the verdict of the people. However, I still believe that the Commonwealth Parliament should have more power. This is the National Parliament, and it should have absolute power. It should not have to struggle along with the few powers delegated to it by the State parliaments. On the contrary, the Commonwealth Parliament should be supreme, and the State parliaments should exercise powers delegated to them by this Parliament. Unless the Commonwealth is clothed with the additional power which it needs, the task of government will be doubly hard. Honorable .members opposite have said that the Commonwealth has power to make grants of money to the State governments for home building, soldier settlement, &c, but I point out, that while the Commonwealth has power to hand out money, it has no power to control its expenditure. That system must be altered, and the Commonwealth Parliament given full power to legislate for the government and development of the nation.

Mr MARTENS:
Herbert

.- As an Australian, I regret that no matter what government submits to the electors proposals for the alteration of the Constitution, the matter has always been made a political issue. In this respect, the Labour party is no better than the

Others. I wish that a convention could be held to discuss alterations to the Constitution, and that the political parties could agree to recommend to the people the acceptance of the proposals drawn up by the convention. We had a Constitution Convention in Canberra in 1942, and certain proposals were prepared and accepted unanimously by the delegates.

Mr Archie Cameron:

– The delegates were not unanimous.

Mr MARTENS:

– They were so long as tho Convention was sitting. It was only afterwards., when they returned to their own States, that they changed their opinions. The referendum proposals were really wrecked at the instance of upper houses of some of the State parliaments. These legislative chambers are elected on a limited franchise, and represent capital in its most vicious form. They refused to give effect to the decision reached by the elected chambers of their own parliaments. That is regrettable. I trust’ that in the near future the State governments will confer with a view to seeing how far they can by legislative enactment give to the Commonwealth the powers necessary to do the things which Opposition members have been telling us for two weeks ought to be done. They know that the Commonwealth cannot do the things which they say ought to be done, but for party political purposes they talk in this way. You, Mr. Chairman, and I represent iti this Parliament two of the worsttreated electorates in the Commonwealth. In saying that, I do not refer particu larly to the present Government or to any other government. I refer to all governments. Rut, despite the cruel treatment to which the people have been subjected, particularly in matters of transport, the majority for “ No “ in my electorate in the recent referendum was less than 3,000. When I accused the then honorable member for Parkes, Sir

Charles Marr, of trying to bring about bloodshed when he said that it would be a good thing if a few bombs had dropped in certain areas in order to awaken the people, I meant what I said; but I say now that it might have been a good thing if a few bombs had been dropped elsewhere than in my electorate. I regard the loss of the referendum proposals as a most serious matter; but what is more serious is the fact that every time proposals are submitted to the people for determination political issues are raised, and the electors are told that such powers should not be given to a government which cannot be trusted. Propaganda of that sort is entirely wrong. The proposals are either right or they are wrong. In any event, the government can be changed every three years should the electors so desire. The Commonwealth should have the powers which the people were asked to give; and bad they been granted, the position would have been that certain powers now possessed by the States would have been transferred to the Common wealth. In saying this, I cannot but add that I was somewhat disappointed with the questions that were submitted to the people.

Since the war began, we have heard a good deal about a “ new order “, although not so much on that subject has appeared in the press during recent months. Rather, is there a disposition to look for a return to the “ old order “ in a somewhat modified form. There will, however, have to be some alterations, not only in Australia, but also in other countries, because unless the living conditions of the masses of the people be improved there will be bloody revolution. Should the young men who are risking their lives in this war come back and find that conditions are similar to what they were after the last war, they will not take it lying down. When men were asked to risk their lives in the war of 1914-18 they were given many promises, and were told that Australia would on their return be “ a country fit for heroes to live in”. Similar promises were made after the present war broke out, but if some people have their way no material change will be made. The Commonwealth has power to do certain things, whilst certain other powers still remain with the States. Some of the States will not do the things that they have the power to do. That was the position after the last war; the Commonwealth could not then do what it wanted to do. Honorable members may remember that after the last war the then Prime Minister, Mr. Hughes, wanted to continue the price-fixing arrangements which had operated under the War Precautions Act, but he was quickly informed that he could not do so; and, accordingly, the whole of the arrangements had to be dropped. After the present war ends, the Commonwealth Government may be able to do certain things for a limited period. I hope that the State governments will see that the things that they ought to do are done. For many years before the war; price-fixing was in operation in Queens* land. That State was in the happy position of having the highest basic wage, the lowest percentage of unemployment, and the lowest cost of living. Those three fine achievements resulted from price-fixing.

Recently, the Minister for the Navy (Mr. Makin) drew the attention of the House to a certain publication issued in Sydney; for some reason he did not name the newspaper to which he referred. His statement had reference to a gentleman who is chairman of directors of Smith’s Weekly. When somebody interjected, “What about the Century, the two papers are on a par ? “-

Mr Archie Cameron:

– There is this difference between them : one of them is not conducted by a .gentleman with a title, although he ought to have a title.

Mr MARTENS:

– Honorable members opposite have not been slow to criticize my friend, Mr. Theodore, the Director-General of the Allied Works Council. Some of them have criticized him because of what appeared in the Daily Telegraph. I do not know that Mr. Theodore is greatly concerned with what the Daily Telegraph says. The gentleman who is the chairman of directors of another newspaper referred to certain citizens of Queensland who are Italians as “ dago-ized industries “. He went on to say that £4,000,000 had been wasted. The person who made that charge should know that waste cannot be separated from war. For the protection of the Commonwealth certain things had to be done at the outbreak of war, and should later developments reveal that that work was not necessary, no honest person will blame those who undertook it. It is easy to be wise after the event, but the job might have been necessary ; and had it not been undertaken the Government responsible for neglecting it would have been cursed from Dan to Beersheba. A good deal of work has been done by the Allied Works Council in my electorate, and some people may regard some of it as a wasteful expenditure of public money. It may be said that there has been extravagance, but the point is that the work was warranted at the time it was undertaken. I am certain that the figures supplied to the House by the Minister for ‘the Navy will not be published by Smith’s Weekly.

I shall refer again to the so-called “ dago-izing “ of Queensland industries. According to an article in the Canberra Times, allegations were made by Mr. Yeo, a western councillor of the Returned Sailors, Soldiers and Airmen’s Imperial League of Australia, that Italians, backed by a financial ring, were gaining control of the sugar industry in Queensland. I do not know where Mr. Yeo obtained that information, but I say now what I have said” before, that any tendency towards the “ dago-izing “ or Italianizing of the sugar industry is due to the fact that Italians are prepared to pay more than the fair value of sugar lands. The lands for which they are prepared to pay excessive prices are offered to them at those prices by friends of members of the Opposition here- ^Italians and others. Wealthy Italians are not unlike other wealthy men; they, too, are out to make profits. I know of a doctor in my electorate who refuses to sanction a land transaction between two Italians because, while he can prevent the transfer, he obtains interest at 10 per cent, on a loan of £2,500 made by him to one of the Italians. He would lose that interest if the farm were sold. What he would like most would be an opportunity to foreclose, but failing that he wishes to continue to receive interest at a high rate; The reason why Australians will not buy farms is that they are unwilling to pay fabulous prices for them, or high rates of interest on money advanced to purchase them. Australians will not enter into commitments from which they see no possibility of escape. Before the Cane Prices Board took over control of sugar lands, wealthy individuals insisted on getting excessive prices for their farms. In the strong-room of the Australian Workers Union in Brisbane there is a big file - it was put there by members of the Queensland branch of the union, including the father of the present member for Kennedy (Mr. Riordan) and myself - showing the prices charged to Italians for farms which could have been bought at lower prices before being cropped than were paid for the land after the crop had been taken off. Of the gross proceeds 60 per cent, was retained by the persons who sold the farms. When purchasers could not meet their obligations they were provided with “ accommodation “ at the rate of 10 per cent, per annum. In many instances, the purchasers walked off their holdings after two or three years. In that way the people who allegedly sold the farms to Italians were able to regain possession, and then to sell them in the same way to some one else. That was the position until the Cane Prices Board took control of the land. The statement of Mr. Yeo is, therefore, not in accordance with the facts. Evidently, Mr. Yeo is a wise gentleman because he .says that he was advised by some military officer that at least 95 per cent, of the Italians in North Queensland were disloyal. He does not give the name of the person who gave that information. I say to Mr. Yeo, and to all other persons concerned, that the statement is not correct. Many Italians from my electorate will never come back to Australia; they have given their lives fighting our common enemy. Like other people, some Italians are seeking .the release from the Army of members of their families for work on cane farms, and as is the case with others, their applications are being refused because the men whose release is sought are fighting in forward areas and cannot be released. I do not quibble about that decision; what I am concerned about is that these people should be branded as disloyal. The per capita contributions to war loans by the people of Ingham bear favorable comparison with the record of any other place, yet at least 75 per cent, of the people of that district are either entirely Italian or are Australian-born Italians. The article in the Canberra Times continues -

A committee, of which Mr. Yeo is a member, has been appointed to draft various recommendations of the alien question for submission to the Commonwealth Government. Australians at present in the firing line will have to take manual work for Italian “ bosses “ on their return to civil life.

That was not the position in any marked degree in Ingham before the war, because an honest endeavour has been made to maintain the proportions of 75 per cent. British and 25 per cent, other nationals when men are selected to cut cane. That is also the position in other northern districts. However, because the Colonial Sugar Refining Company Limited would not allow the burning of cane, that system could not be put into operation fully at Ingham. Efforts in that direction axe still being made. Australians are not prepared to cut cane in the leaf, where burning is necessary, but other nationals do not always take that stand. According to the newspaper article, Mi’. Yeo proceeded -

The Italian element, particularly in Tully, is steadily infiltrating the area and has bought farms at fabulous prices.

That is a fact, but the fabulous prices were charged by friends of members of the Opposition in this House. Mr. Yeo-‘s statement continues -

In some mill areas Italians have representatives on boards of directorate and are a deciding factor in the election of the remaining members.

That is not so; they are elected by all the growers. For a long time there was not one cane-cutter in Tully who was not an Australian, or a Britisher; the latter term excludes naturalized Italians. The lie direct can be given to that statement. Farms are not being sold to-day at fabulous prices in the Tully district. No farm can change hands without the Cane Board’s sanction, as well as that of the Attorney-General (Dr. Evatt). The policy of the Government is that, where Italians are concerned, the department will not allow one Italian to sell his farm, or even his share in a farm, to another Italian.

The position is different where a Britisher proposes to sell a farm to an Italian. I admit that I do not like to see such sales take place; but in those instances the Britisher is out to get what good money he can from the Italian. Most of the proposals for the sale of property are from one Italian to another. For some reason, allegedly because returned soldiers object, the department will not allow these transfers. Most soldiers do not interest themselves in these matters. The objection is practically confined- to business men with their own interests to serve. The report proceeds -

Continuing Mr. Yeo said that those Italians who were ex-internees had delegated power ot attorney to their wives or agents during the period of their internment and were thus able to retain control.

I do not know what Mr. Yeo would have done in similar circumstances if he had been in Italy at the outbreak of war. After all, these Italians owned the properties. They are good citizens in every way. Some people, including returned soldiers, will resent these remarks, but that does not worry me. The large majority of people in that area have faith in the Italians.

When Italy entered the war, some responsible citizens considered that every Italian in the district should be interned. A bank manager in Ingham told me at a gathering of 48 representatives of var]ous interests that some Italians had been among his best clients for twenty years. I asked, “ Do you consider that they should now be interned? “ He replied, “ They should be interned for security reasons “. Some Italians did delegate power of attorney to their wives or agents during their period of internment so that their interests would be safeguarded. Whether or not they were wrongly interned does not enter into this discussion. The report concludes -

He declared that a former officer commanding the Volunteer Defence Corps in the area had told him that in his opinion, at least 95 per cent, of the Italians would have assisted the Japanese in the event of a landing.

The individual who made that statement - I believe Mr. Yeo himself - must have imagined it. The Italian women are as good, and as proud of their sex as is any other woman. They hated the thought of the Japanese coming to this country. Living in the danger zone, they realized what might have happened to them, as women, if the Japanese had invaded Australia and they were frightened. The Italian people are just as good, and just as bad, as any other people.

Some years ago, the Fadden Government decided to establish a wool appraisement centre at Townsville. Admittedly, the war may have prevented the Government from proceeding with the project, but no town in Australia should be granted precedence over Townsville when the next wool appraisement centre is approved. Townsville is the railhead for a vast sheep-raising .area stretching nearly 2,000 miles inland and as far as the south-western district of Winton. Under present conditions, graziers have to send their wool by rail to Townsville where waterside workers load it into ships and it is taken to Brisbane, Sydney or Melbourne for appraisement. This means a loss of not less than £50,000 per annum to the graziers in that area. Then the wool is shipped overseas.’ This unnecessary handling could be avoided. Overseas vessels, which call at Townsville but not at southern ports, could load this wool and take it direct overseas. The Townsville Harbour Board’ is prepared to erect the requisite sheds and wharfs to handle the wool. Although Townsville has an unanswerable case, the next wool appraisement centre will probably be established at Gladstone. I have no interest in Gladstone except to mention that for 40 years it has been the Cinderella for Rockhampton. Whilst Gladstone has an excellent harbour, Rockhampton has no wharf facilities, except those at Port Alma, which lies some 30 miles away, the last 10 miles being over mud flats, infested with sandflies, and without accommodation for the waterside workers who would be required to handle the wool. Townsville is justified in protesting against the establishment of two additional wool appraisement centres in New South Wales during the last few weeks, one of them in the electorate of Gwydir and the other in the electorate of Darling. Whilst I do not complain about that, I point out that even when the wool has been, appraised, it must be taken by rail to Sydney for export. Consequently, the appraisement might just as well be made there. According to reports the cost of establishing a wool appraisement centre is about £50,000. If m centre is established at Townsville, it will not cost the Government anything. The Townsville Harbour Board is in a sufficiently strong financial position to erect the sheds and wharfs to handle the wool. Incidentally, this proposal, if given effect, will save the graziers in the north-west of Queensland and the central-west of Queensland £50,000 a year. Between 150,000 bales and 200,000 bales of wool are transported annually by rail to Townsville. This quantity greatly exceeds that which will be handled at any one of the last three appraisement centres which the Government has approved. Dalgety and Company Limited, the New Zealand Loan and Mercantile Agency Limited, and other pastoral firms should not be the determining factor in deciding where an appraisement centre shall be established. They have threatened that if a centre be provided at Townsville they will abstain from holding sales there. If they do so, well and good ! Other people can do the job as efficiently as they can.

Apropos of my early remarks that Queensland has received a raw deal from this Government, the Prime Minister stated that there were 5,000 more consumers in North Queensland than there were before the war. That statement is probably correct. The honorable member for Maranoa (Mr. Adermann) complained that dehydration plants have not been erected in Queensland. The responsibility for that lies with the State Government, which had an excellent reason for its decision. All the vegetables grown can be consumed in a fresh condition. Consequently there is no necessity to dehydrate them for the troops and civil population. In those circumstances the Government of Queensland cannot be condemned. What is the use of dehydrating the vegetables under those conditions? I am satisfied that the State Government acted rightly in the matter. If it were necessary a dehydration plant could be established succesfully in North Queensland at Bowen, or Ingham or several other centres. Plenty of vegetables are grown there, but no surplus is left for dehydration. Who wants to eat dehydrated vegetables when fresh vegetables are available? The Commonwealth Government wisely refrained from wasting public money on erecting a dehydration plant which would not be required after the war. I have read the reports of responsible authorities on this subject, and I know the reasons why the plants were not erected. The honorable member for Maranoa could have ascertained those reasons had he desired to do so.

My electorate has undoubtedly received a raw deal, but Townsville has been treated worse than any other place in Australia. Homes were requisitioned by the services, and the occupants were ejected. They were obliged to pay more rent for cottages in other streets in the same town than the compensation that they received from this Government. But they are not “ squealing “. Many of them voted “ Yes “ at the recent referendum. Dspite the harsh treatment that its citizens have received, Townsville had an affirmative majority of 800. They voted “Yes” because they realized that this Government had to despatch large numbers of troops and great quantities of equipment there to resist a possible Japanese landing. Innisfail has also been badly treated. It is served from Cairns and because of transport difficulties, goods often lie on the wharfs until they rot. Some goods remained on the wharf at Cairns for six or eight weeks before they were taken to Innisfail. Despite those hardships, a majority of electors at Innisfail voted “ Yes “ at the recent referendum. So, also, did the residents of Tully. Those people were better Australians than most of those misguided creatures who voted “ No “ because they could not get powder puffs or bobby pins or suits of a colour to match their shoes and socks. Others voted “ No “ because they could not get enough beer or tobacco. If the J apanese had overrun Australia, those people would not have been able to obtain any beer or tobacco. They did not vote for Australia. Their vote was dictated by their small, selfish interests, and they believed the propaganda that this Government could not be trusted. Only twelve months ago this Government was returned with an overwhelming majority. But in August, when the Government asked the people to trust it to exercise additional powers for a period of five years, members of the Opposition and a lot of so-called “ Labourites “ kept very quiet, but prayed to heaven that the referendum would be defeated, so that the powers of the State Parliaments would not be reduced. I realize that these remarks will not be popular in some quarters, but I have no hesitation in making them. Australians should lose no opportunity to increase the powers of this Parliament, because those powers could not be misused for a very long period. Undoubtedly, this Parliament should possess plenary powers to deal with all national matters, and I regret that on the 19th August last a majority of the people did not take that view.

Although over £500,000,000 will be expended during this financial year to prosecute the war, the budget contains no provision for increasing social services. According to a statement in the press, the cost of increasing pensions by1s. a week will be £1,000,000 a year. As the honorable member for Bourke (Mr. Bryson) remarked, £5,000,000 a year added to the pensions bill would be a mere “fleabite” compared with the amount we are expending for purposes of destruction. An increase of the rate would only enable the aged and invalid persons to live in the degree of comfort to which they are entitled.

Mr MOUNTJOY:
Swan

One of the bright spots in the budget debate has been the spirited defence by the honorable member for Herbert (Mr. Martens) of Italians in Australia. I represent a large number of Jugoslavs in the electorate of Swan, and I am well aware of the anti-alien feeling which most Australians and English-born people have. But after having lived and worked with Jugoslavs for some years, I know that they are just as good citizens as any one else. Quite a number of Italians in the division of Swan are good citizens, fathers, and husbands, and in many ways they can show some Australians how to behave.

The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Menzies) commenced his review of the budget by describing it as a “ drab and colourless document”. That phrase was seized upon by nearly every other member of the Opposition. I suggest to the Treasurer (Mr. Chifley) that the Government Printer should install a special colour type machine so that for their gratification the next budget may be printed in red, white, and blue. I welcome the decision of the Treasurer to remove the sales tax on building materials used in house construction. Honorable members are well aware of the seriousness of the housing problem throughout the Commonwealth, and Western Australia is no exception. Sales tax amounting to 12½ per cent, on building materials made it almost impossible for the average worker to purchase his home during his working life. This concession will be of great advantage to the wage and salary earners., The Leader of the Australian Country party (Mr.Fadden), in the press and in this chamber, appeared to me to want something both ways. But that is typical of the Australian Country party. He asked for a reduction of taxation and restricted use of bank credit.. I assume that he also wants the war effort to be continued at its present tempo. He must realize that if taxation is reduced, bank credit must be used more extensively. The right honorable gentleman uttered a popular cry for the reduction of taxes in this period. At the same time he warns of the danger of too much bank credit, so that in future, if Australia’s monetary system goes “haywire”, he will be able to say that he foresaw that danger and issued a grave warning in 1944. But the Government is well aware of the danger of the excessive use of bank credit during this period when goods and services are in short supply. The speeches of honorable members opposite in this debate are not calculated to encourage the people to invest in war loans. One of the primary objectives of loans and high taxation is to withdraw surplus money from circulation. That being so, I consider that 100,000 subscriptions of £10 are more valuable than a subscription of £1,000,000 from an individual company.

Although within the last decade we have greatly expanded our secondary industries, primary production remains the main source of our national income. Much has been said about the importance of increasing the birth-rate, and encouraging migration. Either of those policies is useless unless we can guarantee employment to all our people. We must expand both our secondary and primary industries, but before we attempt to settle more people on the land we must first guarantee a payable market. We must guarantee them a price that will ensure that every person engaged in primary production will receive an adequate return for his labour. The Government, under its war-time powers, is able to do that to-day, and during the referendum campaign, opponents of the Government’s proposals said that tlie Commonwealth would possess that power in peace. The Government should act upon that advice, and force the interests opposed to the welfare of the producers to disclose the real purpose of their propaganda during the referendum. Let the vested interests challenge the Government’s action in the High Court; the people will then know who are their friends. The provision of proper housing conditions is also essential to the success of land settlement and the prosperity of primary industry. I agree with the observations made in this respect by the honorable member for Maranoa (Mr. Adermann). Houses of the standard of those provided for city dwellers should be made available to all primary producers. The latter should not be expected to be content with structures of weatherboard and iron. I have lived in various climates, and I know from experience the importance of suitable housing conditions. The Government, therefore, must be prepared to construct houses of brick or such-like material in the rural areas and to make available to country people such household facilities as refrigerators, washing machines, &c.

Many farmers of my electorate are abandoning their holdings because they have no facilities in the outlying districts for the education of their children. They are moving to towns where those facilities exist. I know that education is a State matter; but the Commonwealth has some responsibility to assist the States in that direction. Western Australia, with its huge area and very small population, is not able to provide adequate educational facilities in all country areas. The Commonwealth could induce the other States to follow Tasmania’s example by establishing regional schools. In this respect, Tasmania leads in the field of education. If necessary, the Commonwealth should subsidize such schools in respect of upkeep of children who are obliged to board at them. In addition, it could also grant financial assistance to parents to enable them to continue the higher education of their children. Our people as a whole are awakening to the fact that the education of the child should commence in the kindergarten and npt merely at six years of age. The Lady Gowrie child education centres, which are established throughout the Commonwealth, are doing wonderful work. The kindergarten movement, which is largely a voluntary organization, is also making a very important contribution towards education. However, that movement is in need of assistance. At present, many of its teachers, although highly trained, are underpaid. I look forward to the day when education in this country will be provided from the kindegarten to the university, free of cost to parents.

The Commonwealth also has a responsibility to provide adequate medical, dental and hospital services in country centres. At present, many communities are 20 miles distant from the nearest hospital, and 40 miles distant from the nearest doctor. It is not unusual for one doctor to serve a radius of 30 miles, and in districts where the roads are in need of repair, that is a serious handicap. I arn not suggesting that existing health services in the cities do not need to be improved. I support the representations made by the honorable member for Perth (Mr. Burke) that the Commonwealth facilitate the completion of the Perth Hospital, work on which has been suspended owing to lack of materials. I recognize that the Government has done much to improve social services. I mention, for instance, its pharmaceutical benefit service, and hospital bed subsidy scheme. These are important steps towards the Government’s ultimate goal in the social service field.

I hope that in the post-war period the Commonwealth will continue present controls which prevent the overcapitalization of land. To-day, land cannot be sold without the approval of the Treasurer; and this restriction is preventing the over-capitalization of land. Many people with the ready cash are now prepared to pay high prices for farms. After the last war, many farms were purchased in my electorate at prices up to £7 10s. an acre. At that time, wheat was bringing a fairly high price; but when that price declined, settlers found that they could not meet their commitments. The Government should investigate the growing practice of leasing farms with the option of purchase at an undetermined date in the future. I know a farmer with seven sons, all of whom enlisted. In their absence, he tried to carry on, but as he could not get sufficient assistance, he eventually sold the property to a man who had a couple of sons at home. When one of the former farmer’s sons returned from active service, he was wrath to find that his father had sold what he considered to be his heritage. The . Government should prevent the transfer of farms on lease with the option of purchase. If such restrictions are not imposed, many lads in the fighting services will find it impossible to procure farms upon their return. Their rights in the matter should be protected. If sales or leases with option to purchase are prevented now, and such transfers of property held back until the men return, both those who went away and those who worked so hard on the home front will have an equal chance in any property for sale.

The Government can also help to attract additional population to rural centres by providing improved postal facilities in the country. Whereas, previously, many farmers could not afford to install the telephone, to-day, thanks to orderly marketing of their products, they can do so. The telephone helps greatly to minimize the isolation -of -farmers in outback areas. The Government should provide lines along the main roads, in order to facilitate the installation of telephones in isolated homes.

The Commonwealth should assist the States to provide a more liberal supply of water at cheap rates in areas which are dependent upon the transport of waterover long distances. The Coolgardie water scheme is a great boon to farmers in Western Australia, but the charges in respect of that scheme are altogether too high. This, again, is a State matter; but, had the Commonwealth’s proposals been agreed to at the recent referendum, this Government could have provided the assistance I have mentioned. The importance of this assistance has increased owing to changed farming methods in many districts. Farmers who, hitherto, concentrated on wheat, and could carry on so long as they were able to construct a dam to provide sufficient water for, perhaps, one cow and a team of horses, are now going in for sheep, the average flocks being from 700 to 1,000 sheep. Last summer, such farmers were obliged to cart water for a considerable period, and, owing to the present dry spell, they will have to do so again this summer. Efforts should be made to provide greater catchment areas in the rainfall belt and. to pump sufficient water to agricultural areas inland. However, such schemes will be useless unless the water is made available to the farmer at a reasonable price. It is useless to provide water which is as dear as gold.

I also urge the Government to establish slaughtering centres in as many country areas as possible. When a railway employee, I saw lambs trucked from areas two days’ journey from the Midlands saleyards and abattoirs, and those re-trucked to Robb’s Jetty spent another day, or three days in all, in the trucks. The establishment of additional slaughtering centres in country areas would overcome this problem. We must look to the future of our export lamb trade. When a lamb has been in a truck for a day or so, it not only loses weight, but, what is a more serious matter, it loses quality. By country slaughtering that quality is retained. Our lambs are as good as those raised anywhere. The quality raised on the pastures must be retained for the benefit of the consumer, and in that way ensure an ever-expanding market.

If we are to get the people back on to the farms, they must be given the chance of a decent standard of living. 1 do not agree with the system of having a farm owned by a man and worked by some one whom he can exploit. I hold that every one is worth the value of whatever he produces) and the farms should be worked in such a manner as to be economic units. To bring that about, they should have on them sufficient machinery to ensure their efficient working. If, however, we provide a man with a farm of 1,000 or 2,000 acres, or up to as much as 4,000 acres, according to the class of country, and he has to have a tractor which costs £1,200, his place is pretty heavily capitalized before he starts to work it. The Government should, therefore investigate the possibility of manufacturing in Australia an efficient tractor for supplying to farmers at a reasonable cost, which would help to keep down the capital cost and thus improve the prospect of1 working the farm properly.

An important matter for the consideration of the Treasurer is the working of the Mortgage Department of the Commonwealth Bank. It does not appear to be operating as we hoped that it would. That may perhaps be due to a certain amount of wartime control, but the department was created with the idea of helping the farmer to buy his own place over a period of years. I do not profess to be a banking expert, as many members of the Opposition do. I realize that some plan should be proposed, and we should then leave it to the experts to work out the method. The Mortgage Department should be more liberal in its treatment of applicants. At present, unless a mortgage is falling due, and the farmer can show a very good business proposition, he has no chance of obtaining an advance. Many farmers may show what, on the face of it, is a bad business proposition, although they might, if the Mortgage Department helped them out a little, he able to establish themselves on their farms and come out ultimately very well indeed. Some farmers who are not very good business men are not able to work out their estimates of costs and so on as they should, and are therefore at a disadvantage. The Treasurer should look at this matter with the idea of liberalizing the provisions of the Mortgage Department of the bank as much and as soon as possible.

Honorable members can be confident that this Parliament will give the Commonwealth Bank back to the people, thus undoing the mischief which was done by the Bruce-Page Government in 1924. It was well said last night by the honorable member for Wimmera (Mr. Wilson) that, unless the Government has control of its finances, it cannot carry out the schemes which it has on its programme. In order to do what is needed, we must have control of finance. We have it at present under the war-time powers, but it is very doubtful whether that condition of affairs will continue, and I agree with the honorable member for Wimmera that nothing short of the complete nationalization of banking should be our aim.

Passing from wheat and wool-growing and general farming, I wish to discuss the dried fruits industry, which organized itself in the past, despite the James v. The Commonwealth case, and carried on organized marketing. Its cost of production, however, has risen considerably. I do not say that the wages paid in the industry prior to the war were adequate. Men were then paid as low as lOs., or even 8s., a day to work in vineyards, but at present labour is not obtainable at those rates, and the growers have to pay a reasonable standard wage. Added to that are the extra costs of all the materials which they use, and they have also to cope with the lack of fertilizers. They are supplied with a certain quantity of superphosphate, but they cannot get the blood and bone which they want, so that,’ although they apply as much labour power to their land as they did formerly, both the quantity and the quality of their crops have diminished, and they have obtained only a slight rise in the prices of their product. Dried fruits are given a No. 1 priority for export as a valuable foodstuff, but the growers are allowed no’ priority in obtaining essentials, such as fertilizers, for their properties. That is a matter which needs investigation. If dried fruits are a first priority food, with a high vitamin content, and are needed for the British people and the fighting forces, the growers should receive a similar priority in regard to their needs. They have to wait as long as twelve months for final payments from the Government. Dried fruits supplied in March of this year will not be paid for until next March, which is not right. The wheat-farmer receives a good advance when he delivers his product.

Sir Frederick Stewart:

– Does not the dried fruits grower receive a substantial advance on delivery?

Mr MOUNTJOY:

– Yes, but the wheat-grower obtains his advance at a set figure and the final payment on what, the pool realizes, whereas the dried fruits grower is allowed only a set price. If the Government acquires his crop, it should pay him a payable price for it.

Generally speaking, the Apple and Pear Board has been the salvation of the apple and pear industries of Australia. Fruit-growers en the land in the hills around Perth grow a quantity of apples, and about 95 per cent, of the pears they produce are consumed locally, although this quantity is only about 40 per cent, of the total pears grown in Western Australia. Unfortunately they are not able to produce so good or cheap an apple as the main apple districts do, owing to the suitable soil being only in pockets among the hills. Consequently they do not obtain the heavy crops which the main apple districts produce, but they must accept a set price based on the main apple districts. This, although reasonable for those districts, is a starvation price for the growers in the hills.

They provide early fruit for the Perth market, and if they were allowed a free market for it they could receive more than they are allowed to-day, at least for the early fruit, but they must deliver all their produce to the board at the fixed price. As regards pears, they are also at a disadvantage. Their Bartlett pears, for which they receive only 6s. 9d. a case, are dumped down, taken away and sold in the market for 12s. 6d. and over, so that they are being forced indirectly to subsidize the main apple districts of the State. It is time that the Government recognized the disadvantageous position which they occupy. They should at least be given a free market for their Bartlett pears, even if the board still insisted on acquiring the balance of their crop. The growers in the hills would be happy if they had a free market for all their products, because they would not then be compelled to support the growers in the main apple districts. They should have a free market for their Bartlett pears. There is no reason why the Government should make one section of the primary producers contribute a set-off against the losses incurred over the whole of the State.

Recently I mentioned the problem of population. I said that we should expand our secondary industries, and suggested ways of getting people into the back country. When expanding our primary industries, settling farmers on the land and giving them decent conditions, we should always bear in mind that many a farmer has failed not because he lacked energy or initiative, but because he had no knowledge of the industry in which he engaged. We should, therefore, establish more agricultural colleges where farmers may either learn about their industry or take refresher courses. I listened to the speech of the honorable member for Deakin (Mr. Hutchinson). Some one said that it was quite a good speech. Although I did not think so personally, the honorable member “ put over “ stuff which he had cold-bloodedly lifted out of the report’ of the Rural Reconstruction Commission. I should not mind him doing so, if he had had the decency to acknowledge the source of his information.

Mr Archie Cameron:

– He might have given them to the commission.

Mr MOUNTJOY:

– He might, or he might not, with emphasis on the “ not “. The chairman of the commission is Mr. Wise, who is Minister for Agriculture in the Western Australian Government. Another of its members is Professor Wadham, an excellent officer. The report sums up some of the mistakes of the past, and shows how to. avoid them in the future. I should like to see the report much more widely circulated than it has been. If more copies could be printed and distributed to local governing bodies and other authorities, some of the mistakes of the past might be avoided.

A good deal has been said about invalid and old-age pensions, and various amounts of from 30s. to £2 a week have been named. I am not prepared to say what the amount should be. That is a matter for experts, although I admit that I should like to see the present pensions increased. The honorable member for Maranoa said that an invalid pensioner with a wife and children received 27s. a week, but that is not an accurate statement. The invalid pensioner gets 27s. a week, his wife is paid a dependant’s allowance of 15s. a week, and 5s. a week is paid for the first and each succeeding child, bringing the total possible income for the family to £3 19s. a week, plus any child endowment which may be allowable.

Sir Frederick Stewart:

– How does the honorable member make up a maximum of £3 19s.?

Mr MOUNTJOY:
SWAN, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP

– I am speaking of a married couple with one child. There is 27s. for the husband, 15s. for the wife, and 5s. for a child, making £2 7s. a week, and the wife can earn sufficient to bring the total income up to £3 19s. a week. I do not say that that is adequate. I am simply showing that the figures given by the honorable member for Maranoa are not correct. He should have added £l a week for the wife and child to the £1 7s. a week for the husband, which would have brought the total to at least £2 7s. a week without any earnings by the wife. An old-age pensioner and hiswife can receive £2 14s. a week from their pensions, and if they can work- many of them potter round now doing jobs - they can earn another 25s. a week, bringing the total to £3 19s. a week. I do not think that these old people should have to go out and seek work. When they reach 65 years of age, they should be able to retire on a good pension. We should have an expert examination into what proportion of the basic wage a couple on the old-age pension should be paid. The first figures that I could obtain related to the year 1909, when the old-age pension was 10s. a week, and the basic wage, which was what was known as the Harvester wage, was 42s. a week. The old-age pension was, therefore, just under one-quarter of the basic wage. The pension, however, is not tied automatically to the basic wage. The basic wage may rise over a period of years, but it does not follow that pensions increase in proportion. The actual purchasing power of money may decrease, and the basic wage may be increased. If the pension does not increase, it is really decreasing, because its purchasing power has diminished. The next figure I have relates to 1916, seven years afterwards. No statistics are available regarding the Commonwealth basic wage for that year, but the average of the six States was 61s. l0d. The old-age pension had risen to 12s. 6d., which was not much more than one-fifth of the basic wage, so that in that period the old-age pensioner had lost ground. There was a period of seven years during which the basic wage gradually rose, but the increase of 2s. 6d. a week in the pension did not bring it up to nearly one-fourth of the basic wage. And so the figures goon until 1925, when the old-age pension was £1 a week, and the basic wage was £4 3s.11d. - almost back to the 1909 relationship. Since then, the basic wage has risen gradually, and pension increases have lagged one or two years behind. Last year invalid and old-age pensions were tied to the cost of living, and I regret that recently the Government was compelled to break that association. When a slight drop occurred in the cost of living and it was proposed to reduce pensions accordingly, there was such an outcry that the Government decided to stabilize the rate at 27s.

The following table shows the relationship between the basie wage and the old-age pension from 1909 to 1942 : -

Between 1916 and 1925 the basic wage has varied as follows: -

The figures for .1942 in respect of old-age pensions are the latest that I could obtain. In that year the old-age pension was more than 25 per cent, of the average basic wage. I do not quarrel with that. I am merely endeavouring to make the point that old-age pensioners are at a disadvantage, because the basic wage and the old-age pension are not related. The old-age pension should be fixed on a scientific basis. It should be stabilized at a definite percentage of the (basic wage. In 1909, when the basic wage was £2 2s., mass production in industry was comparatively undeveloped. It has been said that the working man does not receive the benefit of the application of modern science to industry. Improvements of production methods resulting in a reduction of manufacturing costs have benefited, not the workers engaged in industry, but the owners of industry. The same may ‘be said of advances in farming methods. We should have a completely new basic wage unrelated to the 1909 figure. There should be a basic wage “which would give to the people a much fairer share in the wealth they produce.

The honorable member for Barker (Mr. Archie Cameron) said that in the post-war period we shall have to face a long period of sweat and toil. I am not perturbed by that outlook, so long as the workers who have to sweat and toil receive the benefit of their work. I agree with the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Menzies) that, the standard of living of any country depends upon the wealth that its people produce, and upon the sharing of that wealth amongst all sections of the community; but there the right honorable gentleman and I part company. His conception of sharing the wealth, of course, is to put as much as possible into the pockets of the shareholders, ,and as little as possible into the pockets of the workers. The man who produces that wealth should receive the benefit of it. After all, the wealth is produced, not by the man who sits at home and draws dividends, but by the man who sweats and toils in the fields or in the factory.

The honorable member for Maranoa spoke of the Garratt locomotives now in use in Queensland. Probably I know more about those engines and about railway matters in general than does the honorable member. My criticism of the Garratt engine is that the boiler capacity is not large enough for the engine, but the honorable .member claims that they are of no use at all, and that they were forced upon the Queensland railways department. I am sure that the Queensland Government is very pleased to have them. They are rendering an excellent service in Western Australia, where they have been in use for many years, although they are not of the type now in use in Queensland. The new type is also performing very well. Incidentally, I pay a tribute to the railwaymen of every State for the work they have done during the war years. Generally speaking, the conditions of railway employees in “Western Australia are fairly good, hut there are certain improvements which I consider should be effected immediately. For instance, locomotive men who have to drive all night are obliged to sleep during the day in weatherboard cabins, in which the temperature may be as high as 106 degrees. It is impossible to sleep well under such conditions. I am most sympathetic to railwaymen generally, and particularly to engine-drivers and firemen. 1 notice that new barracks have been provided for railway employees at Cook on the transcontinental railway. The buildings are of a good type, but I think that the Government could have gone a little further and provided refigeration and air-conditioning equipment. Men who have to work on the track all day deserve these comforts. Some of the shacks in which Commonwealth railway employees on the transcontinental line have to live are a disgrace, but the structures provided by the Western Australian authorities are even worse. Usually the men are given some second-hand 6-ft. sleepers, and are told to go ahead and build themselves a hut. Then, the Railways Department has the effrontery to charge rent for these structures. Now that labour is scarce it is most difficult to get men to undertake “ per-way “ work, and the railway authorities wonder why. Since this Government has been in office there has been a general improvement of conditions on the transcontinental railway. I do not blame the Government of Western Australia entirely for conditions of railway workers in that. State, because it has no real power over the railways.

I agree with the honorable member for Maranoa that some ex-servicemen suffering war disabilities such’ as war neurosis are not receiving fair treatment by the Repatriation Depart.ment. It is useless for the Repatriation Department doctors to certify that these unfortunate men are not sick; the fact remains that they left this country as Al, and returned physically or mentally disabled. The Minister for Repatriation (Mr. Frost) should undertake a thorough overhaul of his department, and in particular should pay some attention to doctors who have given so many decisions against these men. A review should be mads also of the Entitlement Tribunal. I do not blame the Minister personally for what has occurred. We have done everything possible by providing excellent legislation. The trouble is that we cannot hand pick all the men required to administer that legislation. [n putting his case for the development of Australia’s export trade in the postwar years the honorable member for Deakin brushed aside the Soviet Union as a country which was too poor to provide foreign exchange. I remind the honorable member that the war effort of the Soviet Union has not been excelled by any other nation, and also that a prodigious task has been involved in the transformation of Russia’s economy during the past 25 years. I am concerned with the marketing of Australian wool, and in that regard we cannot look for markets to countries such as India where the climate is hot andi the standard of living low. However, we could look to the Soviet Union for a market for our woollen goods. The honorable member’s allegation that the Soviet Union is too poor to be considered a post-war market, is in keeping with the many other irresponsible statements which he makes. The honorable member also displayed a complete lack of understanding of the. problems of the workers of this country.

We must not overlook the fact that this is a war-time budget. I trust that the next budget will be debated in an atmosphere of peace, and will provide for a substantial reduction of taxes on lower incomes, but not on high incomes. Such a budget would remove many of the anomalies which penalize the working man to-day.

Mr LANGTRY:
Riverina

.- Before dealing specifically with the budget, I should like to pay a tribute to members’ of our fighting services, and to the fighting services of all the Allied. Nations for the transformation which has taken place in the war situation during the last year. These men and women have done a magnificent job, not only in keeping this land safe from invasion, but also in carrying the attack to the enemy. I trust that a year hence we shall he considering a peacetime budget and I have no doubt that that will be the case, because the war in Europe appears to be in its final stages, and with the concentration of all the vast resources of the Allied countries in the Pacific war theatre the defeat of Japan should be brought about rapidly.

I do not agree entirely with all that the budget provides, but I realize that the problems associated with war-time finance are great. I regret that the Government has been unable to grant some taxation relief to those in the lower income groups. Many workers, particularly those with families, are finding it most difficult to pay their way. I am. sorry also that provision has not been made for an increase of invalid and old-age pensions. Australia owes a great deal to its aged citizens who have blazed the track and helped to make this country the best in the world. In view of the high cost of living, 27s. a week seems to me to be an inadequate payment for these people, and their difficulty is accentuated by the restrictions placed upon their income earning capacity. However, we must accept the position and realize that the task of the Treasurer (Mr. Chifley) is most difficult. The honorable gentleman is to be congratulated upon the able manner in which he has performed his war-time duties. I am convinced that few men could have equalled his achievements.

I wish to deal mainly with the problem of rehabilitating the men and women of our fighting services, and the workers who have rendered such valuable service in war production. It must be realized that munitions workers - many of them compulsorily drafted into their jobs by the man-power authorities - have played a vital part in our war effort. Our soldiers could not have fought without equipment. Therefore, the men who worked in our munitions factories under direction from the man-power authorities are. entitled to consideration in the days to come. It will not be easy to replace them in their former positions ; in fact, in many cases, it will be impossible to do so. It is necessary, therefore, that they, as well as service men and women, shall have some preference in employment.

One of the most serious problems that the Government will have to face is the land settlement of both soldiers and civilians. We should take all care not to repeat the tragic failures of the last 25 years in this regard. Men should be trained for land settlement; unless they are trained, the miserable experiences of the past will undoubtedly be repeated* One of the chief faults of all land settlement schemes in Australia has been the over-capitalization of farming properties, and the high interest rates charged on mortgages. Over-capitalization, low prices for commodities and high interest rates all need countering by wise governmental action. I have been glad to hear, in the course of this debate, the strong requests that have been made to the Government to deal with soil erosion through both wind and water. Unless we cope with this urgent problem, both the men who may be settled on the land and their- children who follow after them will have to fight a long and ultimately disastrous war against erosion. Soil erosion is frequently due to over-capitalization because men have overstocked their holdings in order to meet high interest rates, and, as the country has been eaten out, erosion has resulted. We hear a good deal at times about land values, but land, in itself, has no value, and is not worth “ a cracker The production from the land is the proper consideration. Land is only worth its value as a productive agency.

A debate occurred in the House a few days ago on the wheat industry, introduced, to my surprise, by the honorable member for Indi (Mr. McEwen). Unfortunately, I was not present to hear what was said, but I read in the press that that honorable member had alleged that the Government had been guilty of a “ steal “ of £10,000,000 from the farmers. The honorable gentleman must have been aware that that statement was a gross misrepresentation of the facts, because he is not unacquainted with the wheatgrowing industry. The honorable member for Barker (Mr. Archie Cameron) was also reported to have said that the Scully plan was the worst plan for farmers that had ever been devised in the history of Australia. The honorable gentleman must be sadly out of touch with the wheat-growers and with businessmen who live in our wheat-growing areas, or he would never have made such a statement. The statement concerning the alleged “ steal “ from the wheat-growers came strangely from the honorable member for Indi, who must be aware that the Government which was in office prior to this Government practically confiscated 18,000,000 bushels of the farmers’ wheat. On the very day that the war broke out, a deputation of wheat-farmers made representations to the Menzies Administration with the object of obtaining a guaranteed price of 4s. a bushel up to a maximum production of 3,000 bushels. The request was refused, although a royal commission appointed by an anti-Labour government had reported that farmers could not possibly produce wheat and remain solvent if the price were less than 3s. 6d. a bushel. At the time those representations were made there remained in the No. 1 wheat pool, in silos or in bags, 18,000,000 bushels of wheat which was available for sale. The farmers ultimately got only between ls. 5d. and ls. 7d. a bushel for it. So much for the treatment of the wheat-growers by anti-Labour governments. As soon as this Government came into office it guaranteed the farmers 4s. a bushel for their wheat up to 3,000 bushels from each producer. It was said in the debate to which I have just referred that wheat had been made available for fodder for poultry, pigs and other stock at the expense of the wheatgrowers. That statement was definitely untrue. I was among those who, some time ago, requested the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture (Mr. Scully) to make feed wheat available at a cheap rate so that our producers could provide foodstuffs for the men of the fighting forces as well as for civilians under conditions that would, at least, give them a living, and I make no apology for having done so. I had in mind that there was a time in this country when pigs were being sold for Id. each.

At the time this Government assumed office, butter production was falling, and the position of several primary industries was most unsatisfactory. I am well aware, of course, that this was partly due to the absence of many primary producers in the fighting services, but maladministration by anti-Labour governments had also contributed to the result. The primary producers have faced serious difficulties during the war, not only because of man-power shortages, but also because supplies were not available to them. At one time 93 per cent, of the world’s rubber was in the possession of the Japanese. Taking everything into consideration the primary producers have done a magnificent job for the nation. This has been possible because, on many farms, old men who had retired have gone to work in the fields, and mothers of families, who had never previously done any outdoor work, have taken up active farming duties. Children also have lent their aid in food production. This fine effort by the people on the land has been substantially helped by the policy of this Government of guaranteeing prices and, in certain cases, paying subsidies to producers. The people who have maintained our rural industries deserve the utmost credit for their work.

I come back, for a moment, to the point that land values must be judged by land productivity. Because this essential fact has been disregarded on many occasions, land settlement of both soldiers and civilians has failed. Governments have had to come to the rescue of landholders again and again by paying their debts and revaluing their properties. Unfortunately, the people who have really suffered because of overcapitalization have not always been helped, for they have become broken in spirit and ruined financially, and have abandoned their properties before help has been forthcoming. With a proper valuation of rural lands, low interest rates, and the application of a policy of guaranteed prices, it would be possible for our farmers to maintain operations profitably in average years, and, perhaps, even to get through some drought years. We must never lose sight of the fact that every two or three years parts of this great continent become drought-stricken.

This year, one of the worst droughts in the history of the Riverina is being experienced. Even farms in what have always been regarded as good areas are suffering from the effects of drought.

This leads me to emphasize the need, to which I have referred frequently in this House, of a comprehensive policy of water conservation throughout Australia. Water conservation has been sadly neglected during the last halfcentury. Until recently many small towns in country districts have been without even a domestic water supply. Ear too little has been done to irrigate districts with an uncertain rainfall. Many millions of cubic feet of water could be impounded in this country if a wellplanned policy of water conservation were carried out. The development, on a national basis, of water conservation and electricity schemes is long overdue. The first requirement of land settlers is water. I have said previously in this chamber that land settlement has been attempted in many parts of Australia by beginning at the wrong end. The order of priority should be water first, railways second, and settlement third.

I deeply regret that the people negatived the proposals recently submitted to them for an alteration of the Constitution. I believe they will rue the day that they cast that vote. Our whole plan of price stabilization may become ineffective because of the lack of constitutional power. Many of the controls now in operation, and many of the powers now being used, will cease to operate six months after the war. The Attorney-General (Dr. Evatt), who, in my opinion, is one of the greatest constitutional authorities in Australia, made an honest appeal to the people for a grant of additional constitutional power. We all have been glad that the Atlantic Charter has been endorsed. Had an affirmative vote been, given to the referendum proposals an Australian charter would have been endorsed which would have contributed greatly towards the future security of this country. False propaganda defeated the Government’s desires in this regard. I hope, however, that some way will be found to maintain the existing policy of guaranteed prices and subsidies; otherwise serious reverses may once again come upon our primary industries. Economic security must be assured to people in country areas or the population of our big cities will be left more or less stranded. The sympathy of this Government with the men on the land has been proved by action, and, after all, it is positive action and not empty words that count. That sympathetic policy will continue so long as this Government remains in office. Owing to the war, there is a shortage of man-power and materials. However, despite all the difficulties with which the Government has ‘been confronted, it has done a better job for the man on the land than was done’ by any of its predecessors in peace-time. It has been alleged, particularly by the honorable member for Barker (Mr. Archie Cameron), that the wheat-farmers have not received a fair deal from it. The returns from wheat pools prove , that the prices received have been considerably higher under the present Government than during the administration of its predecessors. These show that the growers received an average of 2s. 9.9d. a bushel from No. 1 pool, 3s. 7.9d. a bushel from No. 2 pool, 3s. Hid. a bushel from No. 4 pool, and 3s. lOd. a bushel from No. 5 pool, less all expenses in every case. The honorable member for Barker was a member of the Government which administered that stabilization scheme. The expenses totalled more than ls. a bushel; consequently, the net amount received was not more than 2s. lOd. a bushel. Under the Scully plan, which the honorable member for Barker has decried, the receipts so far for the first 3,000 bushels have been 4s. a bushel net at country sidings from No. 6 pool, and 4s. ltd. a bushel net at country sidings from No. 7 pool, with 3s. a bushel and 2s. 1-Jd. a bushel respectively for the surplus in excess of 3,000 bushels. Men who know the industry as I do, should tell the people the facts, and let them judge. I have been astounded at some of the statements that I have heard made during the last two or three years by men whom I thought were acquainted with the industry.

I hope that when the next budget is presented we shall have full control of national credit. Everything depends on finance. Australia is the only country which has a bank constituted as is the Commonwealth Bank. Control of the credit of Australia is the policy of the Labour party, and I hope that within the next few months measures designed to that end will be considered by the party. For purposes of national development, all money should be issued by the Commonwealth. Bank at an interest rate of approximately three-quarters of 1 per cent. The improvements in Australia constitute the national wealth. Why should we borrow from a private individual, company or bank, in order to develop our natural resources, when we have a national bank? The Commonwealth Bank was established by a Labour government, but its usefulness was subsequently impaired by a reactionary administration, which also disposed of the Australian Commonwealth Line of Steamers, which had carried our wheat, wool and butter overseas at a much cheaper rate than was charged by private shipping companies. All prosperity hinges on finance. Without money, one can be hungry and cold, and die by the roadside. I trust that, in the near future, the Commonwealth Bank will function as was intended, and will provide finance for all post-war reconstruction undertakings, including land settlement, the standardization of the railway gauges, and the building of homes. The inland of Australia must be developed in order to achieve decentralization. Cheap money is the first consideration in any business transaction. If one wishes to buy a business, one has first to consider how much will have to be borrowed and what rate of interest will have to be paid. I can. see no reason why the Commonwealth Bank Board should not be dismissed. I have no quarrel with its members, who are men of a fine type, but why should wc continue to employ them when they are not needed? A board was not found necessary when Sir Denison Miller was Governor of the bank. In any dispute between the board and the Commonwealth Government, the Government is supreme. The Commonwealth Bank should engage not only in the business that is transacted by its mortgage department but also in the financing of city properties and business enterprises. Had it been permitted to function as was intended when it was established, there would not now be another bank in Australia, and this country would be much better off. I hope that the Government will restore it to the position that it formerly occupied, and that it will be able to provide finance for national development at an interest rate that will not exceed the cost of administration.

I trust that the next budget will be introduced in an atmosphere of peace. The dark clouds have practically passed from Australia and other Allied countries, and the defeat of Japan should be encompassed, within, perhaps, the next twelve months. The men and women who have fought to keep this country free, and those who have worked in munitions establishments in order to provide the equipment that has been needed, often working round the clock, should then be assured of the right of entry to any avenue of employment. Whatever government is in power it must make certain that no longer will there be poverty or want, and in association with other governments take steps to ensure that war shall be abolished for all time.

Mr CONELAN:
Griffith

.- The budgetary .position this year is an improvement on what it was last year. On that occasion, the estimated expenditure was £686,532,000, of which £544,416,000 was for war. The expenditure for war this year is estimated, at £505,000,000, a reduction of £39,000,000. That is a remarkable improvement. I trust that during the financial year the Treasurer (Mr. Chifley) will find that he has made a conservative estimate of the war position, and that it will prove to be better than, has been disclosed.

A pleasing feature is the external position of the country. It improved so greatly during last year that the Treasurer was able to repay a loan of £12,000,000 overseas. His estimate of overseas expenditure this year is £53,000.000. compared with an expenditure of £56,000,000 last year. It was the policy of previous governments to borrow externally. That is one of the reasons why this country found itself in such an invidious position, between 1930 and 1932, when international financiers pulled the strings and we had to bow to their dictates. The present Administration has borrowed internally, to the advantage of this country. In future, we shall not have Bank of England authorities dictating the financial policy of this country. I have no doubt that the external financial position will improve substantially in the post-war period.

It is regrettable that the people did not give an affirmative vote on the seventeen points submitted to them at the referendum. I am’ confident that they would vote affirmatively on a number of those points if they were re-submitted. On all sides, I have heard regret expressed by persons who voted “ No “ on the 19th August last.

Mr Harrison:

– How did Queensland vote?

Mr CONELAN:

– That is well known. To-day, Queensland is a front-line area and its people are suffering more disabilities than are being suffered in any other part of Australia. Yet the vote in favour of the proposals submitted at the recent referendum in that State was far larger than was given in favour of the proposals submitted by the Government in which the present Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Menzies) was AttorneyGeneral. On. that occasion the majority against the proposals was about 1,000,000, but at the recent referendum it was only one-third of that number. One of the most redeeming features is that a majority of the members of the fighting services, who have done a remarkable job for this country, voted “ Yes “. I hope that the Government will evolve a scheme whereby some of the proposals rejected by the people may be reconsidered. Everybody realizes that the results will be disastrous unless price stabilization continues. After the war there will be a shortage of many commodities, including clothing, foodstuffs and building material, and, unless the Government takes action to stabilize prices, chaos will inevitably result in the post-war period. For many years Queensland had a price-fixing commission, and the prices of commodities in that State were lower than in any other part of Australia. This Parliament should take action to give to the people throughout Australia benefits similar to those which the Queensland scheme conferred on the people of that State. If that were done there would be no need to fear inflation. During this debate we have heard less about inflation than in any previous budget debate.

Honorable members opposite, who were formerly loud in their condemnation of the practice of utilizing the credit of the nation, have now changed their tune, and wild statements are no longer heard about the dangers of inflation. I have figures before me giving a comparison of the financial positions of Great Britain, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the United States of America, and they show Australia to he in a most favorable position. In 1941-42 the total expenditure in this country was £423,000,000 and the revenue £210,000,000, leaving a gap of £213,000,000. That gap was successfully bridged by the only sound method of finance. That is, by taxation, public loans, and the use of the national credit by means of the issue of treasury-bills. In 1942-43, the total expenditure in this country amounted to £670,000,000 and the revenue was £267,000,000, leaving a gap of £403,000,000. That was the greatest deficiency that has been experienced in any budget submitted to this Parliament. It was due to Japan entering the war on the side of the Axis powers. That huge gulf was bridged successfully by the present Labour Government by the same methods as in the previous year. Last year the deficiency amounted to £377,000,000, and the gap was again bridged with the co-operation of the people of this country. All of the loans submitted to them were oversubscribed, without the assistance of the private banks, on which previous governments had relied to fill the comparatively small public loans floated when they were in office.

The financial position in Great Britain has been similar to that of Australia. In 1941-42, when the Curtin Government came into power, the total expenditure in Great Britain was £4,776,000,000 sterling, and the total revenue £2,074,000,000 sterling, leaving a deficiency of £2,702,000,000 sterling. The gap between expenditure and revenue increased in the next three years in about the same ratio as in Australia, but the financial position there became even worse than in this country. Last year the total revenue of Australia was 45 per cent, of the expenditure, whilst in Great Britain the proportion of revenue to expenditure was 52^4 per cent. When one considers the Canadian figures the position is again favorable to Australia. Canada’s total expenditure in 1941-42 was £2,917,000,000 and the total revenue was £1,467,000,000, leaving a gap of £1,450,000,000. In 1942-43, the expenditure totalled £4,301,000,000 and the revenue £2,223,000,000, leaving a gap of £2,078,000,000. In 1943-44, the discrepancy between revenue and expenditure increased to £2,504,000,000. Honorable members will find the following statement from a tory newspaper of interest : -

A message from Loudon on August 8 said that a new landmark was reached by the addition of a further £50,000,000 to the Bank of England fiduciary note issue, making the total £1,200,241,718. Of this only £241,718 U backed by gold, and the fiduciary issue is now fourfold the pre-war figure.

Members of the Opposition are fond of citing the financial practice in Great Britain and of making unfavorable comparisons with Australia, but I have presented figures which put this country in a more favorable light than the Old Country. When the Scullin Government was in office in 1930-31, a bill was submitted to provide for a fiduciary note issue of £18,000,000. The tory press created an uproar, and the Chairman of the Commonwealth Bank Board was brought to the bar of the Senate to be questioned and in order to prevent the bill from being passed by the Parliament. To-day, however, colossal sums of money are being raised by means of a fiduciary note issue of a different colour from Bank of England notes. I hope that in future no outcry will be raised concerning fiduciary note issues in Australia.

The War Cabinet has decided that 30,000 men shall be released from the Australian Army and 15,000 from the Royal Australian Air Force to enable essential industries to maintain maximum production. The War Cabinet has been influenced by the War Commitments Committee and the Production Executive, but I consider that all of those bodies have failed to do justice to small business men. On numerous occasions my notice has been directed to cases of hardship to men of this class having failed to obtain release. Many of them have been in the fighting services four or five years. They have served in the Middle East and New Guinea, and they are now back in Australia doing a job which could be done by men who are unfit for service overseas, but are desirous of remaining in the forces. Many small businesses have been carried on during the war by relatives of the owners ; but, as the strain of war is now at its peak, they have suffered in health. If they are called upon to continue at the same pressure for the next year or so, they may collapse, and the businesses which they have been conducting may be ruined. I hope that the War Cabinet will reconsider this matter, and recognize the necessity for coming to the aid of this section. I have discussed the matter with the Army and man-power authorities, who agree that releases should be granted in such oases, but they point out that they have no power to recommend releases, because of the War Cabinet’s decision. I hope that, after the men mentioned have been released, the Government will realize the necessity of releasing still more. It is proposed to discharge 45,000 men, in addition to the normal wastage from the forces. This addition to the civil population will create a greater demand for goods and services, and labour should be made available to meet it. In Queensland, one has to wait months in order to get a pair of shoes repaired, and when the additional men are released, the situation will be even more acute. The Government should release many of the B class men who are now doing jobs in base areas near the capital cities. I have applied for the release of men with one eye, others with one leg, and others who are over 48 years of age, but in every case my applications have been refused. Some of these men were incapacitated in the last war, and now that the situation has so greatly improved there is’ no reason why they should not be allowed to return to their homes, especially those who have been serving for four, and in some cases, five years.

The Government proposes to embark as soon as possible upon a big homebuilding scheme, and it should be preparing for this now by accumulating reserves of building material. Before the war there were .twelve firms in Brisbane manufacturing bricks, but of this number only two are now in production. The other ten have been closed down because of the shortage of labour. Some of the employees have volunteered for the Services, and others have been called up. There used to be 280 employees, who made 600,000 bricks a week. At the end of May, 1944, there were only 48 men employed, and they were producing 110,000 common bricks a week. The firms still in production have orders for millions of bricks for high priority jobs, but they cannot be filled because there is a shortage of 24 men for the making of the bricks. In New South Wales, the position is much better, and men have already been released to work in the brickyards. Two additional yards have been opened, and four more will be opened shortly. Before the war, there was a reserve of 4,000,000 bricks in Brisbane, but that reserve has now been depleted and the brickyards are 8,000,000 bricks behind in their orders. Moreover, in New South Wales, there is still a very large reserve of bricks. If that is the position in New South Wales, there is no excuse for not releasing men for brick-making in Queensland. I appeal to the Minister for Labour, and to other Ministers, to examine this position closely. When the war ends, the Government will want to provide employment in the building trade for many men discharged from the services, but the trade will not lie able to absorb them unless bricks are available. Therefore, the Government should, without delay, release the 24 men required now for the brickyards in Brisbane.

I am glad that the Government will shortly make provision for the payment of gratuities to those discharged from the services. I yield to no one in my admiration for the men and women of the services. Many young men have made great sacrifices in money and in health, while some have made the supreme sacrifice. I am sure that the people of Australia will commend the Government for anything that it is able to do for them, no matter how generous it may be. We must make up to them for all they have lost during the period of their service. I hope that the Government will take steps to prevent the abuses which occurred in connexion with the payment of gratuities after the last war. At that time, gratuity bonds, which were redeemable at their face value in five years’ time, were sold on a sort of inverted black market to money lenders and others at ridiculously low prices.

I hope that the war will be over in twelve months’ time, and when it ends the Government will be faced with many grave problems, and will have to provide for the rehabilitation of the men and women of the fighting services. It will have to settle men on the land and find places for others in industry. There will be a great opportunity after the war to expand both primary and secondary industries. Our textile mills can produce cloth equal to that manufactured in any part of the world, and I have no doubt that the new mills to be opened shortly near Newcastle will produce rayon of excellent quality. The men and women of the fighting services can be absorbed in industry if the Government will take a realistic view of the situation, and does not content itself with merely drawing up blue-prints. To the north of us there is a population of 1,200,000,000 people inhabiting -the Netherlands East Indies, the Celebes, British Borneo, India and China. To those people we shall sell our surplus primary and secondary products, and we can in return buy from them rubber, petroleum, quinine, and sisal for the manufacture of cordage. They have suffered, and are suffering, great privations, and it will be our duty after the war to endeavour to raise their living standards until they more nearly approximate our own.- In this way we shall benefit them and ourselves, also. I hope that we shall not wait until after the war before making an effort to capture the markets which lie so close to our door. We are dealing with some of them, but others also are trying to gain those markets. When other countries have been freed from the aggressor, I hope thatthe Government will send representatives there with a view to encouraging trade with them.

I sincerely hope that before the next budget is presented, victory will have been achieved and a reduction of taxes made possible.In considering reduced taxation,I hope that the Treasurer will consider, first granting relief to people in the lower income groups, particularly those who before the war did not pay income tax. I should also like consideration to be given to persons in receipt of pensions. In making that suggestion I have not overlooked the fact that every increase of pensions by1s. a week represents an additional expenditure of approximately £1,000,000 each year. But what is thought of £1,000,000 to-day? No one seems to worry about it. I also hope that before the Treasurer presents another budget the Commonwealth Bank will again be a people’s bank, and that the Government will have gone ahead with the implementation of Labour’s policy. I hope, in particular, that the Government will give to the people the things that they were denied when tory governments were in power, and will show that a Labour government is not only sympathetic, but also courageous enough to do those things which should be done in the interest of the people.

Mr COLES:
Henty

.- The change that has taken place in the Pacific zone, and the victorious moves in Europe, have so improved the general war situation that the people have been led to expect relaxation from some of the rigours of war. Many expected that this budget would contain an announcement of lower taxes, some relief from rationing, and possibly greater supplies of materials for such purposes as home building. But the budget is a timely reminder that Australia still has an unfinished task to perform and that much still remains to be done in the coming year. That the budget does not provide for much expenditure on capital works is something which will be welcome to all of us, but it does not indicate any relaxation of the war effort. No person can say that a budget which contemplates the expenditure of over £500,000,000 forwar purposes is an indication of a reduced effort, when measured in terms of man-power or output. Rather does it point to an increased effort in terms of man-power, which, after all, is the correct measure of a nation’s effort. The budget can be described fairly as the practical outlook of a man who sees facts and makes provision to meet them. I congratulate the Treasurer (Mr. Chifley) on his unwavering attitude towards the financial stability of Australia in war-time. During this debate many honorable members have referred to the man-power position, and there has been implied criticism of the use of man-power. The remarks of honorable members in relation to rural industries imply, if they do not openly say, that the Army is being maintained at too high a standard as regards manpower. I am not in a position to judge, because I am not in possession of the facts relating to Army personnel, but I do not charge the Government with any neglect in that direction. I know that the Government has been constantly overhauling the man-power situation in order to make the best use possible of Australia’s limited resources. “We still have a war to fight, and so long as that condition remains, the Army cannot accede to every request from the civil population which feels the pinch of the war shoe. Nevertheless, when many varied interests keep harping on the one subject, and saying that man-power is not used to the best advantage, the Government should carefully consider what is said. I go so far as to say that it may be wise to consider the setting up of an investigating body, in order to determine whether the criticism levelled at the Army as to its use of man-power can be justified. In saying that, I do not suggest that the criticism can be justified ; but merely that the matter may be worth investigating. Australia is pledged to perform its part in the fighting, and no one wants to see the Army reduced to a state of inefficiency through lack of man-power. We still have a debt of honour to pay to 20,000 Australian prisoners of war in the hands of the Japanese. He would be a poor Australian indeed who would not want to rescue them, and bring them back to

Australia. The Minister for the Army (Mr. Forde) has told us that it is intended to release 45,000 men from the armed forces by June of next year, and to allocate them to other priority work. I do not think that that indicates that civil industries, apart from priority war jobs, will get any assistance which will enable them to revert to peace-time production. I am concerned about the man-power problem because, as chairman of the Rationing Commission, I come up against it frequently. I am concerned with the outlook in regard to clothing for the people of Australia in the coming year. Many people consider that we should be reaching the position where there can be a relaxation of control, but the position is far from satisfactory. After two years of rationing, it can be said that the position in regard to raw materials for the making of clothing is fairly satisfactory. That position was reached towards the end of last year. But our man-power capacity ,to make that raw material into clothing constitutes a very difficult problem. About November, 1943, we reached the point where we thought that we would have sufficient garments coming to hand to meet the rationed demands of the community. At that stage, the Controller of Clothing and Textiles had an agreement - I do not know whether it was a gentleman’s agreement - that that would be the level at which man-power in the industry would be maintained. Unfortunately, that level has not been maintained, and unless there be some improvement of the man-power position, I warn the people of Australia that, although we may have plenty of cloth, the shortage of many made-up garments, because of inability to manufacture the cloth into garments, is likely to cause embarrassment. The industry is many thousands of garments short of requirements. Unless there be some considerable relaxation in respect of priority war jobs, it does not look as if there will be any greater amount of clothing available for the civilian population. Recently, the Attorney-General (Dr. Evatt) appointed a commissioner _ to inquire into the practice of displaying in retail shops what have been termed “ quota sold “ notices, indicating that no more of certain lines would be On sale that day. That was an aftermath of the New South Wales elections, when it was stated that the purposes of the notices was to influence the election. I must admit that the commissioner issued a very fair report based on the evidence that was submitted to him. He found that there was no collusion between storekeepers, and no direction by any government department for the practice that had been adopted. It was, in fact, a hangover from the prerationing period, when the Government asked storekeepers to fix a daily quota. They retained the word “ quota “, and in the course of time it gained a special political significance. I was somewhat astonished that the commissioner did not find that one of the reasons why storekeepers adopted the practice was that there was a shortage of man-power, which made it physically impossible for their staffs to handle as great a quantity of goods as they did in pre-war days. There is no priority for man-power in the retail trade. The Man Power Directorate in Sydney has, in some instances, deprived retail staffs of 50 per cent, of their normal strength. That being so, it is physically impossible forthose depleted staffs to do more than get a certain quantity of. stock available forsale each day, and to sell it. That state of affairs does not exist in every business,, but it does exist in many busy city concerns. The staffs of retail stores have rendered good service to the people of Australia. The commissioner was most solicitous on behalf, of customers; heasked retailers to investigate complaintsof discourtesy on the part of some of their assistants. I point out that most, of the women now employed in retail businesses are over 45 years of age, and that many of them have household duties to perform before leaving home in the morning, and after their return home in. the evening. I believe that most of them have come out from their homes to do a. job for the nation because their sons areaway fighting, or their daughters have joined some of the women’s services. When criticisms are levelled against a section of the community, the facts should be examined, and I, for one, believe that, these people deserve consideration for having done a war job. The muchharried customer is not the only one who is right in these times.

Mr. Bradley discovered, as the Rationing Commission knew, that there were definite shortages of certain goods in Australia. The reasons for those shortages were certainly beyond the control of the Government, because they were due to the fact that the cloths were not made in Australia and could not be imported in the quantities desired. Moreover, the man-power in the trade was not adequate to manufacture goods in sufficient quantities. ‘ I congratulate Mr. Bradley on the fairness of his findings. Many of his helpful suggestions are being adopted by the Rationing Commission.

I was pleased to hear that the Government proposes to appoint a parliamentary committee to investigate the payment of gratuities to members of the fighting forces. I like that approach, and hope that it will lift the matter of war gratuities out of the realm of party politics. When the committee’s report is presented to Parliament, honorable members should unanimously endorse it. None of us should try to add a shilling here or there just to get a little kudos for ourselves. After the last war, a gratuity amounting to ls. 6d. a day was granted to soldiers who had served abroad, and ls. a day to soldiers who had not gone overseas. The maximum gratuity payable to a man was £128 15s., and the total amount distributed was £27,516,000. The Government should give a generous commission to the committee, which should consider the problem in the light of the purchasing power of money to-day, whilst the fact that many men have been in the forces for longer periods than during the last war, may extend the period of rehabilitation. The Dominion of Canada has granted a gratuity of a dollar a day. A.s I do not know any of the details of the scheme I cannot comment upon it. But if Australia were to fix a gratuity between ls. 6d. and one dollar a day, the liability of the Commonwealth would amount to about £50,000,000. Australians will not object to paying that sum as a gratuity to the “ boys “ who have served this country so well.

The only section of the Australian civilian population that has really, suffered from the impact of this war are the residents of the Northern Territory, Papua, New Guinea, Thursday Island, and the like. As the enemy has been pushed back from those zones, the Government should consider the immediate restoration of civil authority to those areas. This matter should not be left until the conclusion of hostilities. People were compulsorily evacuated, and are a charge on the Government. I regard the problem in this manner: When the Government compulsorily evacuated the people in those areas, it virtually impressed everything that they owned. Actual war damage, as committed by the enemy or by our forces repelling the enemy, is covered by war damage insurance, and that property will be reinstated without difficulty. But those people incurred other losses, to which the Government must give consideration. Whilst Army impressments will be a charge against the Army, losses were incurred because the owners could not carry out maintenance work on their properties, or because of looting. For many reasons properties will not be in a fit condition to be put into service when the people return. In justice, the full rehabilitation of all the physical assets which those people possessed should be made. I recommend to the Government the immediate establishment of civil administration in those territories, and the civil administrator should be given power and generous authority to provide maintenance for these people until they re-establish themselves. Under the Production Control Board, many of these properties are being restored to production. In some instances, the owners are being reestablished, but they are under the control of, and are rationed by, the Army. The Minister for External Territories (Mr. Ward) should permit these men, who are really leading their normal civil life, to send for their wives. As some female missionaries have already gone back to the areas, no new principle is involved in this matter, and the concession would be a great comfort to the husbands and wives. I mention this matter because I believe that if Australia expects to attract migrants from overseas - and most people agree that we need them - we must first solve our own problems. If we have on our hands a problem such as the rehabilitation of New Guinea we shall be hamstrung to that extent in developing our own resources for the purpose of receiving migrants. We shall need all our inventiveness and the development of our resources if we are to build up our population to 20,000,000 persons within the next quarter of a century. We have to draw on our imagination.

I was surprised, and rather shocked, to hear the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Harrison) criticize a representative of a friendly nation for having dared to suggest to Australia how it could maintain a larger population. The honorable gentleman criticized the American Minister to Australia, Mr. Nelson T. Johnson, who ventured to assert that northern Australia could be settled more closely. The honorable member stated that he objected to statements relating to conditions in Australia, geographical and economic, by a gentleman who had sojourned in this country for only a short period.

Mr Harrison:

– I suggested that the Prime Minister should answer any statements of that kind, because they might have a serious effect on Australia at the peace conference.

Mr COLES:

– The honorable gentleman is apparently perturbed because some statements would inform the world that Australia has unoccupied territory. He said that Mr. Johnson, although doubtless making his remarks in good faith, was doing Australia a grave disservice. I do not agree with those views. The honorable member was very ungracious and ungenerous to the representative of a friendly nation, who was only giving us the benefit of his advice. The following article in Wings, of the 29th August, contains some of Mr. Johnson’s views -

In 1843 my father went into the Cherokee Strip, which is the northern part of the State of Oklahoma. He went in with a great many others, at a time when the “ Strip “ was open to be settled. The country was open grassland - what Americans call prairie.

There was no timber or water. The first settlers built their houses of sod, cut with a plough and divided into brick-like sections. Water was hauled and sold by the barrel. The first wells tapped water that was brakish, and unfit for human consumption.

There was one railroad running through the “ Strip “ north and south. Summer temperatures rose to 110 or 112 degrees, and in the winter temperatures went down to below zero Fahrenheit, with sleet storms that covered the plains with ice.

Trees had to be planted, wells had to be dug, roads had to be made, cities had to be built. Within ten years, wheat, pigs, corn, cattle and cotton were being produced. Cities had developed from the tent stage to brick.

And at the end of fourteen years what had been a territory inhabited by Indians, coyote, antelope, had been admitted to the Union as a State, with its own sovereign government . . .

Mr. Johnson refers to his trip through the Northern Territory as follows: -

. Time and again on my trip along the bush road which traverses the stock routes I was reminded of boyhood days in Oklahoma. Thousands of acres of beautiful black soil, covered by Mitchell and Flinders grass, stretching to the horizon in all directions, reminded me very much of our western prairies.

The Commonwealth Government, through its able administration, has provided bores for wells, with windmill pumps at intervals of about 20 miles all along the stock routes, and the purpose of the trip was to inspect the condition of the stock routes and the condition of the wells which make it possible for cattle to be walked from the Territory to the markets north-east and south.

We met thousands of cattle in herds of 1,400 to 1,500, and talked with drovers and stockmen. And the more I heard, in conversations with the Administrator and his very efficient officers, all of whom are enthusiasts, and the stockmen and station managers, and the more I saw, the more convinced I became that this beautiful, and still unused country, is Australia’s land of opportunity for its youth.

Of course, a railroad must be built. But there are practically no engineering problems to be solved, for there are no grades and no tunnels.

The city of the future, similar to the Omaha or Kansas City of our prairies, will rise somewhere near Newcastle Waters. There will be located the stockyards, the abattoirs, and meat-packing plants.

Another railway will run from this city to a convenient port on the Gulf of Carpentaria, where, I understand, there are no tidal problems.

The Government will have to assist in the building of the railway, but the freight is already waiting, for at the present time somewhere about 100,000 head of cattle are walked out of the Territory at an average speed of 9 miles a day . . . . . One’s imagination is staggered by the opportunities offered in this area for creative and constructive work; the opening of the prairie lands to settlement for the raising of wheat and cattle and pigs; the building of cities, roads; the conserving of water . . .

Those are the views of a gentleman who has seen similar country converted to productive land and who offers us the benefit of his experience. To us in Australia, those views may appear wild and fanciful; but who knows? If we are to develop this country we must draw upon our imagination. We cannot settle all of our population on the eastern strip between the Great Dividing Range and the coast. The Government should say, “ Thank you “, to Mr. Johnson. It should investigate these proposals-; and if there be any chance of attracting people from overseas to settle this area, let us throw open the land and settle it in the same way in which vast areas in the United States were settled and developed. Let us make this land available free to .settlers who are prepared to pioneer it, relying upon their own resources. In the past, however, our method has been to overload new settlers with an initial debt which they have no chance of liquidating this side of the grave. Mr. Johnson continued -

The settling and building of this new country will consume all the products of Australia’s secondary industries for the next SO year»; steel for rails and for building purposes; internal combustion engines for pumping water, power plants, and for refrigeration in the homes, the packing plants, and the cars for exporting perishable food; agricultural machinery, machinery for ditching and roadmaking.

The Government should carefully examine this and other imaginative schemes. It should not shut its eyes to them as the party for which the honorable member for Wentworth (Mr. Harrison) speaks would do. Let the Government give a lead in this matter, and invite people from overseas to settle this land. It should undertake a virile programme of publicity in Great Britain and other countries, pointing out the possibilities offered by Australia’s open spaces. We should not hide the fact that much of our country is unoccupied, and pretend that we are entitled to hold this land, although we are unable, with our present numbers, to develop it. Should we continue to throw cold water upon every proposition of this kind, we shall never attract people to this country. I was very sorry to see an honorable member of this chamber behave so discourteously towards the representative of a friendly nation. Such remarks are harmful, particularly when we need to establish goodwill and friendship with other countries. To the unimaginative and unwilling, all things are impossible. Mr. Johnson has shown us something of the spirit of enterprise that developed the United States of America, and with the same spirit we might follow th, example of that country, even, on some occasions, with our eyes shut, because such pioneering methods have been proved to work. I say to Mr. Johnson, “ Thank you. I sincerely hope that the Government of Australia will consider the suggestion that you have put forward

Mr CHIFLEY:
Treasurer and Minister for Post-war Reconstruction · Macquarie · ALP

– in reply - I find it necessary to reply to some of the remarks made during this debate. The view of honorable members, generally, is that taxation has reached its limit. With that view I agree. Certain remarks have been made with regard to borrowing. Although I, personally, should like to have seen many more subscribers to loans, the record of the nation in filling all our war loans to date, without recourse to bank credit, either from the ‘Commonwealth Bank or the private banks - I am not speaking of savings banks, which always invest in loans - is most remarkable. There may be some shortcomings. It has been said that the number of subscribers has notbeen so great as one would wish. I echo that view. . I hope that the record, in respect of the number of subscribers, which was established in the loan before the last will be broken. But, calmly surveying the financial record of this country during the war, honorable members must admit that the people have shown confidence in the Government. Something has been said with regard to waste in war expenditure. It is very easy to make statements of that kind. I do not suppose that in any war yet fought there has not been some waste. It is true that money has been expended upon works1 which, due to the changing strategy of the war, were found later not to he essential. Those things could not be foreseen. However, this country was fortunate in not having to use certain defence works. I suppose, also, that waste has occurred owing to the haste with which certain works were carried out and the fact that the only labour available for such works was the residue left after all available 100 per cent, physically fit men were assigned to other works. ‘That was to be expected. We had to send to Queensland many men, aged up to 55 years, who previously were engaged in comparatively soft work. While previously they had not been used to great physical strain, they were placed on pick-and-shovel work. Despite the “moans” of a minority of the people and the criticism of honorable members opposite, 98 per cent, of the citizens of this country have done a magnificent job in this war. When people who are disinterested and politically impartial look back upon Australia’s achievements during recent years, they will agree that it has been remarkable. Of course, some people have voiced very strong criticism about me, my narrow outlook with regard to finance, and my very niggardly attitude with regard to such matters as tax remissions and concessions. I have said on previous occasions that if the people of any country fighting for its very existence are not prepared to pay their utmost for liberty, they are not worthy of liberty. I realize that taxes are very heavy; but I do not believe that the majority of the people of this country, in the aggregate, are very much worse off financially than they were before the war. I say frankly,, and even to my own colleagues, that some people are better off because they have a joh today, whereas, under the economic system which operated before the war, they had to be content with the dole. At least, this war has given them a job. With regard to taxation, we have heard much about the pay-as-you-earn system. I have applied the same principle to war expenditure. A nation should pay as much as it can for the preservation of the liberty for which its people are prepared to die.

Mr HARRISON:

– Would the Treasurer apply the same reasoning to the production of coal?

Mr CHIFLEY:

– I apply the principle to all. Perhaps there are some black spots in our war effort. I have lived and worked among coal-miners, and I do not know of any industry in which the conditions of work are worse than in the coal-mining industry: I say that from personal experience. At the same time, I do not offer any excuse for people who, for trivial reasons, refuse to work; but one need only visit the mines in my electorate to see the indescribable conditions under which the miners go to work and have to work. The very atmosphere at the pitheads is sufficient to revolt the average honorable member, or citizen, who has had some semblance of comfort in his living and working conditions. I feel a little ashamed sometimes when some people attempt to decry certain sections because they may fall down on their responsibility. Such criticism may come easily from Ministers and politicians, who are close to the heart of things, and win a little glory either by criticizing somebody or by being criticized themselves. But entirely different is the position of the man who, day after day, goes through the common drudgery of work, with no glory, and indeed with no true knowledge of the things he reads or hears about, or the real circumstances of our war position. I confess that some politicians have helped to mislead the average citizen with all sorts of false stories, with the result that he now doubts the truth when it is told to them. My deepest sympathy and gratitude go out to the people least favorably off financially and economically for the many sacrifices they have made in this war. This country survives to-day, not because of the efforts of those who do all the talking, but of those who do the work and fighting. I do not deny that the present rates of income tax are high; but the people as a whole have been prepared to pay, as well as play, their part in the war effort. In addition, my colleagues have made many appeals to the Government to increase social service benefits. Social services must be paid for by somebody. They cannot be paid for out of what is called national credit, or bank credit. They must be paid for in hard cash, which must come out of somebody’s pocket. It is all very well to say that bank credit and national credit should he used to establish public works. It is useless for us to fool ourselves that we can give to the people of this country social services and social security, and pay for such benefits with national credit. That is madness.

– I said so.

Mr CHIFLEY:

– The answer, which I have given here before, is that there are certain things which the Government can do in war-time towards keeping its promises, whereas effect cannot ‘be given to the other things while we are at war; therefore, the Government did those which it was physically possible to do at this time. Schemes such as the provision of unemployed and sickness benefits require considerable staffs to handle them. The proposal for free medicine requires only a limited number. Later on we shall introduce a proposal for free hospital treatment, which also will not require a large staff. We are endeavouring to deal with the things with which it is possible to deal. If the right honorable member desires to help us, I hope that he will have a word with the members of his union, and see what they can do to expedite our other proposals. The Marsh plan in Canada, another proposal for social security, recommends the provision of $100 for funeral benefits for every member of the community.

The Leader of the Australian Country party (Mr. Fadden) referred to the treasury-bills, totalling £53,000,000 which were issued for the benefit of the States during the depression. I do not propose to deal with that matter exhaustively to-night, but I point out that whatever may be the legal position in regard to repayment, the sinking fund existed as soon as the treasury-bills were issued. It may be quite true - and I have no doubt that, it is true, because it has been accepted quite honestly, I think, by successive Treasurers of the Commonwealth and the States - that 10s. per cent, was the sinking fund rate provided under the financial agreement; but later, certain people questioned whether the rate should not be £4 per cent, as required by the National Debt Sinking Fund Act. When this Government came into office, it found this “ bawling baby “ on its doorstep. In my dual capacity as Treasurer of the Commonwealth and chairman of the National Debt Sinking Fund Commission, the matter became my responsibility. As soon as the matter was brought to the notice of the commission, that body obtained highly qualified legal opinion, which was that the sinking fund rate should be £4 per cent. That meant that the States had a very heavy deficit in the sinking fund, perhaps unknowingly. I do not say that this legal opinion necessarily would be upheld in the courts.

Mr Fadden:

– But the Treasurer has accepted it as being correct?

Mr CHIFLEY:

– Yes; it was given by highly qualified legal advisers, who were practically unanimous. We then proceeded to take the matter up with the States. I do not propose to traverse all the ground covered by this matter, but an agreement was reached by the Loan Council. It was reached with great difficulty, as the Prime Minister knows only too well, and probably it is not entirely satisfactory to the leader of the Australian Country party or to some other honorable members.

Mr Fadden:

– It is a compromise by the debtors.

Mr CHIFLEY:

– I accept the honorable gentleman’s apology. I still think his speech was a discourtesy to a visitor.

First item agreed to.

The general debate being concluded -

page 1193

QUESTION

ESTIMATES 1944-45

Parliament

Remainder of proposed vote, £182,000.

Mr WHITE:
Balaclava

.- There is a gross waste of paper in this Parliament. Reams of printed matter is daily supplied to honorable members and forthwith consigned to the wastepaper basket - notice-papers, Votes and Proceedings, and the like, and publications brought out by Ministers, full of “ blah “, boosting their own departments. This waste is occurring at a time when insufficient paper is procurable for the publication of decent literature in Australia. I mentioned this matter on a previous occasion, and the Minister for War Organization of Industry (Mr. Dedman) promised an investigation of it. I agree that it is comparatively minor ; nevertheless, any waste of public money should not be overlooked. A striking contrast that will be apparent to the Attorney-General (Dr. Evatt) and others who have been abroad recently, is the prodigal waste of paper in Australia and the saving of it in the United Kingdom, where envelopes are used repeatedly in all internal correspondence, and wherever possible the paper is of a cheap kind. I direct the attention of the Prime Minister to the publication Digest of Decisions and Announcements.

Mr Curtin:

– That has nothing to do with the vote for the Parliament.

Mr WHITE:

– Tons of paper is wasted, and the printing presses are kept busy on unnecessary publications. The Government could easily effect economy.

Mr HOLT:
Fawkner

.- The committee should take this opportunity to discuss with the Government the item which deals with the conveyance of members of Parliament and others. The Government should give serious thought to the conditions under which the members of the Parliament are expected to travel in existing circumstances. These are such that they cannot be expected to make intelligent and constructive contributions to the debates. It is not my intention to discuss the causes that have made the travelling conditions so much less satisfactory recently than they were formerly. I am not quarrelling with the necessity which obliges members of Parliament to share war-time discomforts with other sections of the community. That is not the point. I put it frankly to the Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin) that it is impossible for members to give of their best when they have to travel to and from their States each week in the present circumstances.

Mr Barnard:

– Remain in Canberra, for a change.

Mr HOLT:

– Many honorable members who have to travel each week would be pleased to remain in Canberra for a change, but as they have learned from the Treasurer (Mr. Chifley) that there is no prospect of an early easing of taxation, and they have to pay tax on income other than their parliamentary allowance, they are constrained to do other work when they are not engaged on their parliamentary duties, in order that they may meet the exactions. The promised benefit of the pay-as-you-earn system is a little too far distant to meet the immediate problem. Already this week we have had to sit up in the train throughout a night. We have been told that the present sitting is to be continued until the Estimates have been passed. Those who travel to-morrow night will have to Sit up in the train throughout the night, and they will have a similar experience next Monday on the return journey to Canberra. I am not caviling at having to accept a share of war-time discomforts; they are little enough, compared with what manyother persons are suffering. But the position is entirely unsatisfactory, in view of the important work that we have to do in this Parliament, and in our constituencies. Could not a more reasonable and practicable approach be made to the problem? There has been emergency provision for those who come from Victoria, inasmuch as they have been given the alternative of leaving the train at Yass at 5 a.m., after having been curled up like a “ possum “ for many hours, and of then being jolted for two hours in the medieval contraption which the Minister for the Interior (Senator Collings) has managed to provide for the occasion, arriving at Canberra at 7 a.m., too early to transact any business, yet too late to go to bed. I put it seriously to the Prime Minister, that members cannot have a satisfactory state of mind or health, or be expected to do good work, under these conditions. In the emergency, and for the limited period during which the conditions will operate, air travel to Canberra would not be too much to expect.

Mr FADDEN:
Leader of the Australian Country party · Darling Downs

– There is a disparity which needs explanation. Last year, £306 was expended on the conveyance of senators and their luggage in Canberra, and the amount provided for that service this year is £300, whereas the amount expended last year on the conveyance of members of the House of Representatives and their luggage was £160, and the amount provided for this year is £240. I should like to be informed of the reason for the disparity in view of the fact that the members of this chamber are twice the number of senators.

Mr HUTCHINSON:
Deakin

.I support the remarks of the honorable member for Fawkner (Mr. Holt) in regard to the conditions under which members have to travel to and from Canberra during the sittings of the Parliament. Because the coal-miners of New South Wales indulged in strikes, in consequence of which coal production was reduced by 2,000,000 tons in the last eight’ months, rail transport throughout Australia has had to be curtailed. Why that should apply to interstate expresses, before the services of trams and trains to sporting fixtures were affected, is beyond my comprehension. The honorable member for Fawkner has correctly stated the facts. Members who travel to Victoria to-morrow will have to sit up all night, and they will have to do the same when they return on Monday night. In addition, the present sitting is to be continued throughout to-night. In such circumstances it is impossible for honorable members to give that mature and earnest consideration which should be given to the problems of this country. The present conditions are quite different from those that were imposed when on a previous occasion serious railway restrictions were found to be necessary on account of coal troubles. No member of the Ministry is obliged to experience the discomfort which members of the Opposition are expected to suffer. Since the present restrictions on rail transport were introduced, I have not seen one Minister travel by rail; all of them travel by air or car. I am not suggesting that Ministers of the Crown should suffer discomforts while travelling. The public has a wrong conception of the high duties which they have to perform. They are entitled to the privileges which they enjoy. The point that I make is that an honorable member cannot be expected to give proper consideration to the important subjects that come before him when he has no sleep during two nights of the week. This week, we shall have three sleepless nights, because of the all-night sitting to-night. It is high time a review was made of the whole of the travelling perquisites of members of Parliament. When the time is more opportune, the old system of giving railway passes, and regarding that as free travelling, should be discarded. Members are entitled to a different sort of travelling allowance. Those who come from distant States should be permitted to travel by air. We have the necessary aircraft, and there is not a really acute shortage of petrol. I see no reason against the expansion of the air service to Canberra. The services between the different capital cities are used largely by public servants. I know that they have important duties to perform ; but that is true also of members of Parliament. Public servants are at the administrative end and members of Parliament are at the policy-making end. If the policy goes wrong, administration, too, must go wrong. The policy-maker is the more important of the two. The Prime Minister should seriously consider the provision of better means of transport for members than they have experienced during the last few weeks.

Mr CONELAN:
Griffith

.- I support the remarks of honorable members opposite. I represent a constituency in Queensland. Honorable members on both sides of the chamber have to travel very long distances in order to serve the nation, in this capital city. To have to sit up for two or three nights does not befit a member of the National Parliament. Those who come from Western Australia are much more seriously affected than are members from the other States. To-day hundreds of millions- of pounds is being expended on destruction. The cost to the Government of bringing members by air to the national city would be negligible. During last week-end, I had the privilege of travel’ ling by air to my electorate and back. I left Canberra last Friday afternoon, and was iti Brisbane that night. I left Brisbane on Tuesday morning, and was in Canberra that afternoon, Had I travelled by train, I should have had to sit up for two nights each way on the forward and return journeys, whereas” by joining an early morning plane I could have continued my duties in Canberra on behalf Of my constituents before the train had left Brisbane. I do not begrudge public servants the facilities which the Government places at their disposal when they have to travel to the various States. If privileges to them are justified, surely they are justified to members of this Parliament. Any honorable member who desires to travel to Canberra by aeroplane, when Parliament is sitting, should be allowed to do so. Those who prefer to travel by train should not be compelled to leave sleeping cars at a very early hour. The sleeping, cars should be detached from trains at Yass, so that members could remain in them until a reasonable hour. That is particularly desirable in the winter months. I should not want even one of my political opponents to catch a chill and die through having to leave a sleeping car at an early morning hour.

Mr WHITE:
Balaclava

.- Apart from consideration of the personal comfort of members of this Parliament, I have drawn attention for the last fifteen years to the fact that Canberra has inadequate communication with the rest of the Commonwealth. It is not fitting that international visitors to the national capital should find it necessary to submit to the discomforts which the transport arrangements entail. The present railway to Queanbeyan was built in 1880, and has been little improved since that date. It would not do credit to a minor South American republic. Why does not the Government acquire a few transport planes, in order to improve the air service to Canberra? Numbers of Douglas planes are available.

Mr Curtin:

– Where?.

Mr WHITE:

– The Prime Minister had better consult his colleague the Minister for Air. If the honorable gentleman says that he cannot get them, why is not road transport made available? That would be preferable to the present out-of-date ‘ railway service. Nobody oan tell us why the train invariably stops for a considerable period at Queanbeyan. I suppose that it is an old New South Wales custom, which will be observed as long as trains run through that town. Canberra is entitled to a rapid transport service, comfortable to members of Parliament and the public.

Mr MORGAN:
Reid

.- I draw the attention of the committee to the need for more clerical assistance than is now available to honorable members. An agitation recently arose for an increase of the number of members of this Parliament, and I read that even the Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin) was disposed to consider the matter favorably; but, before that stage is reached, we should see that the administrative work of the Parliament is placed on a proper basis. Under present conditions we are unable to give adequate service to our constituents, because of lack of clerical assistance. Honorable members now have to act as glorified clerks, dictating letters, licking stamps, and even filing correspondence. The number of letters which some honorable members receive in the course of a year would be equal to that handled by a Cabinet Minister in peace-time. My correspondence amounts to 30 or 40 letters a day, and throughout my experience as a member I have found that the clerical staff available is inadequate for the work. Had I not utilized the staff of my own firm, I should not have been able to give reasonable service to my constituents. Some matters, particularly those relating to the Australian Army, occupy the attention of honorable members for weeks, and, when inquiries come from constituents, the necessity frequently arises to refer to the files of correspondence.

In the United States of America, $5,000, or approximately £1,000, per annum is allowed for the provision of clerical and typing assistance for members of Congress. I urge the Government to give careful consideration to this matter. The provision of adequate clerical assistance would enable members not only to give proper service to their constituents, but also to devote attention to research in connexion with their legislative duties. Every honorable member receives an abundance of literature acquainting him of matters to which he should give consideration. I have piles of literature on my table at present, but I doubt whether I shall ever be able to read the whole of it. Ministers are no doubt borne down with their heavy duties, and possibly have .not had time to consider the representations made to them by honorable members. I hope that Ministers will make themselves acquainted with the conditions under which rankandfile members have to work in the Federal Members’ Rooms, Sydney. If a secretariat or information bureau were established, at which constituents could obtain the information which they seek with regard to various matters, the time of honorable members could be spent to better advantage than at present. .Some of the matters on which we have to see our constituents are trivial, such as complaints that they cannot obtain hot-water bottles, garden hoses, ‘ refrigerators and similar articles. Honorable members should not be called upon to assist their constituents in minor difficulties of that kind. Many questions are addressed to them with regard to Army matters. Some of them are of an urgent nature, and have to be attended to by telephone. Honorable members cannot do that work satisfactorily when they are expected to be present in this chamber.

In the House of Commons recently, the Prime Minister of Great Britain, Mr. Churchill, was asked to give consideration to a reorganization scheme, under which rank and file members could be given more important work than they have done in the past. I submit that honorable members should be free to attend to the social legislation and other matters of urgent public importance which they will be called upon to consider, particularly in the post-war period. I hope that the Government will adopt the committee system which operates in Great Britain and the United States of America, and appoint parliamentary under-secretaries to assist Ministers in carrying out their administrative and legislative work. Preliminary discussions by committees would have the effect of curtailing debate in the Parliament itself, because honorable members would become expert on the particular subjects in which they were interested.

Remainder of proposed vote agreed to.

Prime Minister’s Department

Proposed vote, £1,200,900.

Mr HARRISON:
Deputy Leader of the Opposition · Wentworth

– I desire to move -

That the amount be reduced by£ 1- as a direction to the Government - that the committee disapproves of the expenditure of public money in the presentation of the case for a “ Yes “ vote at the recent referendum.

– The right honorable gentleman robs his clients to pay his employees.

Mr FADDEN:

– They stick to me because I render good service. I could give numerous examples of the underpayment of senior public servants occupying responsible positions. One of them is Mr. A. V. Smith, the secretary of the Department of Supply and Shipping, who also holds the office of chairman of the “War Disposals Commission. His task in the Department of Supply and Shipping alone is exacting, whilst as chairman of the War Disposals Commission, which will handle assets variously valued from £200,000,000 to £500,000,000, he will have much added responsibility. Not only permanent heads of important departments, however, come within the category of public servants who are grossly underpaid; many other capable men in the departments are receiving salaries far below what private enterprise i3 paying for comparable work. Notwithstanding that their work has increased in both volume and importance as the war has progressed, they have not received increased remuneration.

There is need also to review the scale of travelling allowances paid to members of the Commonwealth Public Service, especially those in the lower ranges of income. It would appear that the Public Service Board is completely out of touch with the conditions prevailing in the capital cities as a result of war-time conditions. Prior to May, 1943, the allowances paid to permanent and temporary Commonwealth employees when in capital cities for the first fourteen days were as follows: -

In May, 1943, the allowances in respect of employees receiving £342 per annum or les3 was fixed at 14s. 6d. a. day; for those in the salary range £343-£720, the rate was fixed at 18s. 6d., whilst those whose salaries were between £721 and £1,012 had their allowances fixed at 22s. 6d. a day. I emphasize that the latter rates apply only to returned soldiers and members of an organization within the Arbitration Act; employees who do not belong to a union or organization remain on the lower scale of allowances. The Public Service Board completely ignores the fact that typists and lower-paid public servants have the greatest difficulty in obtaining accommodation in capital cities at anything like the rates of allowance laid down by the Government. Hotel and boarding-house tariffs have increased considerably, and it is unfair that any employee should be out of pocket when travelling on official duty. Moreover, there should be no discrimination between unionists and nonunionists in the fixing of allowances.

For almost a year I have been endeavouring to convince the Government of the need to strengthen the Public Service Board. The board and its staff have been considerably weakened as a result of the war, but the Government has failed to rectify the position. In October, 1943, I suggested that the board and its staff should be brought up to at least pre-war strength, and that future appointments to the board should be made from men with outside business experience. The Prime Minister informed me that those matters were receiving the consideration of the Government. I ask him to let us know what the Government intends to do in this matter.

There is need for a thorough overhaul of the salaries paid to the permanent heads of departments, and of allowances paid to officers when travelling on duty, and of conditions generally throughout the service. Another need is to give careful consideration to the cases of men who have been brought into the service from outside, and have built up, and are still building up, a dangerous and’ costly bureaucracy.

Mr CURTIN:
Prime Minister and Minister for Defence · Fremantle · ALP

– The Leader of the Australian Country party (Mr. Fadden) has raised the general question of the standards upon which the Public Service o’f this country is based. The matters raised by him are of great importance. Heads of departments are appointed by Cabinet, and their salaries also are fixed by Cabinet; the Public Service Board has nothing to do with those matters. There has been an increase of the number of departments as a result of the war. Some of the permanent heads of departments who have been appointed since the war commenced were previously officers of great capacity holding positions of less -responsibility. They were selected for their present positions because of their aptitude for the tasks required of them. Those officers have not only gained the promotion that their qualities have . warranted, but have also received substantial increases of salary. I do not say that, even now, they are paid adequately, but in their cases some measure of justice has been done. Regarding the heads of other departments, it must be borne in mind that wagepegging is part of the law of this land under national security regulations. It is right that I should pay a well-deserved tribute to members of the Public Service, particularly its higher executive officers, although all sections of the service deserve it. But I cannot ‘find words adequately to express my appreciation of the devotion, zeal, and untiring assiduity with which senior officers have carried out their important duties. They have been at call 24 hours of the day, and have given of their utmost in the service of the nation. I make that acknowledgment to them, having at the same time to keep firmly in mind the fact that, as a broad principle, it has been considered right not to increase rates of pay during the war. Certain adjustments have been made in regard to such matters as travelling, war risks, overtime rates, &c, throughout the Commonwealth generally, but public servants may not have shared in these things. Nevertheless, it can be said that, speaking generally, the Public Service has had a classification which has not been impaired by the war, although war conditions have probably made them less satisfactory than was the case previously.

I agree with the right honorable gentleman about the need for action in respect of the Public Service Board. In this connexion certain legacies were left on my doorstep, in that three commissioners who had the job of classifying and assessing the work of public servants had not operated as a board for some time. Mr. McVey was taken away, and his position was not filled. Under the act the Governor-General in Council may leave a vacancy unfilled. Mr. Starling was brought in. Mr. Thorpe’s term was extended by my predecessors, but his extended term will end in March, 1945. Practically single-handed, Mr. Thorpe has attended to the work which the board, as a board, previously performed. Certain arguable aspects of this matter need to be discussed. The Government has had experience of a single commissioner, and of three commissioners; and I believe that if we get the man with the requisite capacity, a single commissioner, with assistant commissioners, is a more effective method of dealing with the classification of the Public Service than is a board of three commissioners. My reason for expressing that, view is that a board of three commissioners means all too frequently that a decision really rests upon the judgment of the man with the least capacity. When the two strong-minded commissioners differ, the third commissioner, possibly the weakest of the three, will determine what shall be done. From my study of this matter, I am firmly of opinion that a single commissioner should be appointed when Mr. Thorpe’s term of office expires. In passing, I should like to pay tribute to Mr. Thorpe for his great work. The single commissioner would need to be a man of great capacity, one of the leading men accustomed to this kind of work. He would require at least two assistant commissioners to handle a great deal of the work, which normally would come within the purview of the board.

The significance of the public administration, and its importance in public policy, must by now be clearly evident to honorable ‘members. That significance brings me to the conflict that goes on between the instinct of a man for public service, and the attraction of the greatly increased emoluments that he will receive if he is employed by a firm or corporation. It is true that the scale of remuneration in the great instrumentalities of government, which have to be administered by public servants, is not comparable with that which high executive ability commands outside the Public Service.

Regarding anomalies that have grown up since the outbreak of war, the position is that the Commonwealth Government has secured the services of gentlemen from offices in State Public Services, semi-governmental instrumentalities, and great corporations. The Government considered that it would be only proper to remunerate those men at the rate which they received when the Government requisitioned their services. In consequence, men of great ability and technical capacity are holding subordinate offices in the work of a department, but they receive higher remuneration than does the permanent head. Some men, whose services have been requisitioned, are serving the Government in an honorary capacity. Two names come readily to my mind, those of Mr. Essington Lewis and Mr. E. G. Theodore, and there are others. I shall have a list compiled so that I shall not fail to place on record the names of all those gentlemen who are serving the Commonwealth in war-time without remuneration. I am grateful to the Leader of the Australian Country party for having raised this subject, because the strength and capability of the Commonwealth Public Service is a matter of the highest importance. I shall give full consideration to his representations.

Mr Fadden:

– Will the Prime Minister comment upon the different rates that are paid to members of unions, and to non-unionists?

Mr CURTIN:

– That is a matter of law. The Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration Court deals with organizations. Where the Government fixes rates of a salary, those rates should be paid to all employees, regardless of whether or not they are members of a union. But where the members of an association apply to a tribunal, whether it be the Arbitration Court or the Public Service Arbitrator, for a variation of an award or agreement, and succeed in getting it, as that variation has been sought for and on behalf of the members of the association, then it should apply to those persons. Until the law provides that there shall be a common rule in industry, I do not propose to apply . it. Honorable members opposite and employers generally have always contested the common rule. But if it should become law, the nonunionist would be entitled to the same rate of pay as that secured by the unionist as the result of subscribing, fighting, and making the requisite sacrifices to plead the case and get the judgment.

Mr White:

– That is very weak.

Mr CURTIN:

– I have yet to discover that the man who will make no contribution to the welfare of his fellows is a very good caretaker of his own welfare.

Mr WHITE:
Balaclava

.- The Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin) has tried to justify the granting to unionists in the Commonwealth Public Service of a higher rate of pay than that given to non-unionists. The right honorable gentleman endeavoured to excuse it with some show of indignation, contending that those who do not subscribe to the funds of a union should not profit from any benefits that the organization gains for its members.

Mr Curtin:

– Non-members were not parties to the award.

Mr WHITE:

– The private employer does not discriminate between unionists and non-unionists.

Mr.Curtin. - He does.

Mr WHITE:

– When an arbitration court or wages board fixes the rate of remuneration, the private employer will definitely pay it to non-unionists as well as to unionists. The Prime Minister is applying the policy of compulsory unionism, even against young girls and junior clerks in the Public Service, so as to force them to become members of the Public Service trade union. He attempts to conceal that fact by saying that the law provides that only those who are a party to an application for a variation of an award shall benefit by it. Many of the young typists in the Public Service do not know that such an organization exists. This discrimination is indefensible. Because of the high principle that the Prime Minister has enunciated, one employee is paid at the rate of time and a half on, say, Melbourne Cup Day, as he is a member of an organization, whilst another employee in the same office, who is not a unionist, does not receive the extra rate. Trade unionism originated to benefit industrially the working man, and was a proper thing. But since it became a political weapon, it has been used for very base ends. We see it at its worst in the militant unions, which have been dominating the Government, are responsible for so much industrial turmoil, and set such a bad example to other workers. The Prime Minister directed that the additional rate of pay shall be granted only to members of an organization. It is inconceivable that such an instruction could be given in this democratic country. During the recent referendum campaign, speakers for the affirmative emphasized the necessity for safeguarding freedom of speech, religion, and the press. But a fourth freedom should be enunciated - freedom of association - so that any man or woman may enjoy equal rights without domination by any organization or industrial bully. The honorable member for Hunter (Mr. James) explained recently that the coal-miners went on strike for the purpose of expelling a non-unionist from the industry. What a noble cause ! Who would have imagined that it could have happened in Australia ! The Prime Minister has not justified the discrimination in the Public Service in respect of pay. His action does him no credit, and he should see that the Government pays to non-unionists in its employ the same rate as it grants to unionists.

Sir FREDERICK STEWART:
Parramatta

– The judges of the Commonwealth Arbitration Court and the Commonwealth Public Service Arbitrator will not feel flattered by the implication in the statement made by the Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin). Some of us were foolish enough to believe that an adjudication by any of those authorities was based on an assessment of the value of services performed or of the allowance appropriate to meet travelling and other expenses. But the Prime Minister has dispelled that idea. Evidently the adjudication by those authorities is a concession to what might be called “ pressure advocacy “. What the Prime Minister said regarding the law on the matter does not cover the whole case. The fact remains that so far as temporary employees of theCommonwealth Public Service are concerned - and that covers a big category, particularly at the present time - the discrimination between unionists, followed a specific direction which the Prime Minister gave to the Public Service Board. Apparently the Prime Minister and his colleagues are not very proud of that direction, because the Senate, before the facts could be revealed by the presentation of the relevant papers, had to make a very straight direction to the Government. That disclosed that the taxpayers of Australia pay an additional £24 to some officers, not because they render better service or are better equipped mentally or technically than others, but merely because they contribute to the funds of the union. The attitude which the Prime Minister adopted to-night, does not do credit to himself or the Government. This restriction on the freedom of the individual to associate or not to associate with a union, which is not really a trade union but a political organization, is unreasonable, and I hope that the Government will revoke this iniquitous arrangement.

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:
Barker · ALP

– There can be no answer whatever by the Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin), or any other member of the Government, to the contention that all persons employed by the Crown should be treated equally. However, at present, there is being exercised, in fact, a preference which depends not upon any service which may have been rendered, but upon an employee’s membership of some union or association. The only preference which ought to be recognized by the Government in the Public Service is preference in respect of war service. Under the present, arrangement, the Administration is guilty of one of the foulest things one could expect to see in any democratic country, in that men or women doing the same work in the same office are not receiving equal wages. An employee receives less wages than another because he, or she, does not happen to be a member of some union or association. For that reason also, some employees receive a lower travelling allowance, a lower meal allowance, and a lower rate of overtime pay than others. That is discrimination of the worst and rottenest type, and it shows up the Government, which had the impudence to go to the country not long ago and talk about freedom of speech, freedom of faith and freedom of the Lord knows what, as being as hypocritical as Satan. Until, this injustice is removed, the Government cannot look the people in the face and say that it believes in the principle of equality.

Mr HOLT:
Fawkner

The CHAIRMAN:

– The Chair has ruled that the honorable member rose and then resumed his seat, and, later, rose again and resumed his seat.

Motion (by Mr. Spender) put -

That the ruling be dissented from.

The committee divided. (The Chairman - Mr. Riordan.)

AYES: 17

NOES: 36

Majority . . 19

– The Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin) took part in the discussion, and I am siding with him. I have a long record of service in the union movement and in the working class movement. I have always said that the men who have paid the piper to obtain arbitration court awards are entitled to the benefits and those benefits should not go to people who are not prepared to join an organization.

Mr HARRISON:
Wentworth

– The honorable member for Herbert (Mr. Martens) has just given the committee rather an extraordinary exhibition. He said that he believed that unionists who fought for certain conditions should be given consideration and receive what they fought for, but in the next breath he said that he did not believe that any preference should be given to returned soldiers. That is the policy for which the honorable member stands. The Prime Minister has been accused to-night of showing base discrimination between certain officers in his department. He sought to justify what he had done by saying that he believed that unionists who fought for and were granted certain conditions should get the benefit of them, and that those who did not belong to a union should not obtain like conditions.

Having said that, and found that a counter argument was being directed towards him, the Prime Minister treated the committee with the greatest discourtesy by walking out of the chamber. He ran away from the argument on his own Estimates, and left some other Minister in charge of his department. That is gross discourtesy to the committee, and should not be tolerated. How can we get an answer from a general factotum when the Prime Minister runs out of the chamber? Does he not understand the Estimates of his own department, or must he hand them over to some junior Minister who has to try to satisfy the committee, with the aid of his sidewinder alongside him to direct him on procedure? I know of no more fruitful cause of industrial unrest than the creation of discrimination within the ranks of those who work side by side in an industry. In the Public Service we have a number of men and women doing the same class of work, in the same hours, under the same conditions, and showing the same energy, yet the Prime Minister says to them, “ If you do not belong to a union you will not be paid as much as your colleague alongside you receives “. If that is not coercion of the worst type I do not know what is. The policy of the Government is preference to unionists, because it depends on obtaining from the unions themselves the wherewithal to fight elections. It is, therefore, interested in this matter for more than purely public motives, and it is high time that the country took notice of this extraordinary trend of political events. Take the case of a soldier who returns and obtains a position, where he works side by side with those who belong to a union. He has fought to preserve the conditions of unionists in this country, has possibly been maimed, has shed blood, and has suffered all the disabilities to which a soldier is exposed, but he will be denied the benefits which unionists get, because they fight on an industrial front in peace-time conditions, sponsored by ex-secretaries of unions like the honorable member for Herbert. The Prime Minister should not encourage the kind of discrimination to which I have referred. This matter goes deeply into our industrial life. At last we have been given an indication of the Government’s attitude to preference to ex-servicemen. We have all heard certain honorable members opposite declare that they do not believe in preference to ex-servicemen but favour .preference te unionists in the Public Service; yet the Prime Minister has stated that the powers at present possessed by the Commonwealth permit the enforcement of preference to returned soldiers only in the Commonwealth Public Service. The Government is failing in its duty when it issues a harsh direction such as this. It will affect youn? men entering the Public Service, and possessing a degree of individuality. These lads will be subjected to pressure by union bullies, shop stewards, or “ stand-over men “. Having found that they are unable to make any impression upon the personal integrity of some of these young men, the unionists have solicited the help of the Prime Minister in an endeavour to bludgeon non-unionists into joining unions.

Mr BRYSON:
Bourke

.- We have heard from the honorable member for Wentworth (Mr. Harrison) a characteristic plea on behalf of nonunionists and scabs. The honorable member has also displayed a lamentable ignorance of the subject under discussion. When he wishes to talk about preference to unionists in the Public Service, he should first find out something about the matter. Had he done that he would have realized that wages and conditions in the Public Service are determined by a special arbitration tribunal, constituted by an act of Parliament passed by an anti-Labour administration. That act provides the machinery by which the unions representing the public servants may apply for variations of awards.

Sir Frederick Stewart:

– That does not apply to temporary employees.

Mr BRYSON:

– It does. The funds built up by membership subscription have enabled the unions to secure, by determinations of the Public Service Arbitrator, the wages and conditions of employment which public servants enjoy to-day. Prior to the introduction of the legislation to which I have referred, wages and conditions of employment were fixed by regulation. Any man who is too mean to make a small contribution to a union is not entitled to the benefits which that union has been able to obtain for its members. From experience, I know that whether ex-servicemen in the Public Service are unionists or not, they enjoy the benefits of the awards. I suggest to the honorable member for Wentworth that before making a loud noise in his advocacy of “scab labour” he should make himself familiar with the subject he wishes to discuss. If he had a clear understanding of the manner in which wages and conditions of employment in the Public Service were fixed, he would be satisfied that only unionists are entitled to the benefits which have been obtained by the unions.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Department of External Affairs

Proposed vote, £233,900.

Sir EARLE PAGE:
Cowper

– The vote for the Department of External Affairs this year has been increased by £34,000. The reason for that, of course, is that Australia is taking a much greater interest in international affairs than it has in the past. Unfortunately, by the irony of fate, just as Australia is becoming more conscious of its international obligations, our nearest neighbours in Asia are displaying a more intense nationalism. In Australia, _the Labour party has been traditionally isolationist, and, so far, this Government has not given a definite indication of its overseas policy, but the events of the war and the wonderful improvements in air travel and wireless broadcasting, show clearly that we cannot live to ourselves alone. The historic isolation of Australia has ended. When this continent was discovered by white men, it was a stone-age land so far as human development was concerned. The Australian aborigines had no beasts of burden, vehicles, domestic animals, agriculture, or methods of conserving food. Even when the white man introduced these marks of civilization, our geographical isolation from the rest of the world, and our protection by the might of the British navy, especially during the last- 150 years, prevented us from developing a wide outlook upon world affairs. But now that isolation has ended, and it Ls important that we should know what other nations are doing. The steps that are being taken by the Minister for External Affairs (Dr. Evatt) to increase Australia’s representation overseas are most commendable. This work, of course, was started by a previous administration which sent Australian representatives to Washington, Tokyo, and ‘Chungking. I am gratified that that lead, is being followed. When I was Minister for Commerce I increased our commercial representation overseas, and endeavoured to set up a trade-commissioner system which would attract able young men. In addition, when the honorable member for Parramatta (Sir Frederick Stewart) was Minister for Commerce, the Eastern Trade Committee was set up. These things were done to ensure that we should establish contacts overseas in British Empire countries, and in the United States of America. We must have much more contact with these nations if we are to provide for ourselves a background which will enable us to handle the many problems which confront us. Already, international agreements of far-reaching importance are being made, and an increase of the number of such pacts after the war is inevitable. Last week legislation was introduced into this chamber to confirm Australia’s part in the relief and rehabilitation of countries devastated by the war; there was also a measure dealing with food and agriculture. These measures show how necessary it is that we should have the fullest possible knowledge of what is happening overseas. To meet this need, we must undertake three different types of education. First, we must educate the men who will be charged with the actual representation of Australia overseas. Secondly, we must educate the public to a much better international understanding; and thirdly, we must endeavour to make the Parliament of the Commonwealth itself take an interest in our international relations which, to-day, may be much more important than our domestic affairs. If our international relations deteriorate, then, no matter what may be our domestic aims insofar as social services and other developments are concerned, we shall not be able to carry them into effect. Therefore, we should seek to facilitate more frequent visits to other parts of the world by our parliamentarians. I have always considered that Empire parliamentary delegations have been too small, and I have endeavoured to bring about a doubling of the personnel of those delegations. I have believed also that the intervals between visits by these delegations have been too great, thus placing a definite limit upon the number of men who have been able to go. After the war, when air travel will bring this country, in effect, much closer to other parts of the world, we must review this position, and if we cannot increase the size of our Empire parliamentary delegations, then, at least, we should make allowances to parliamentarians to enable them to make overseas contacts. At the Constitution Convention, and when the Constitution alteration measure was before this House, I advocated an increase of the size of this Parliament and a reduction of the size of electorates to enable members to devote more time to the consideration of international affairs. I favour the establishment of a system which would enable men to spend much more time in Canberra, in order that they might take greater advantage of the opportunities that are afforded by the Parliamentary Library.

Large sums are being expended on free medicine for the people, and on other matters, yet parsimony is displayed in the development of Canberra. For many years I have advocated, so far without much success, that Canberra should be regarded as a post-graduate educational centre. A university should be established here, which would provide post-graduate courses, especially in law, matters affecting the Constitution, social subjects, and economics. Such an organization would give to those young men who desired to enter the Public Service, especially that section of it which deals specially with overseas matters, a knowledge which would enable them to fit themselves for important posts. An exceptional opportunity is presented by the presence of the foreign legations, to make of Canberra a centre in which the best teaching in foreign languages could be obtained. The. High Court also should have its head-quarters here. We should make certain that boys and girls shall be able to obtain a firstclass knowledge of international affairs. Large sums are provided for material things, and mental culture and the acquisition of knowledge should not be neglected. We should try to ensure the establishment of high-class libraries wherever there are high schools in the city or the country, and for this purpose there should be a Commonwealth subvention. There are excellent libraries in every big centre of population, as well as in Canberra, but they are not much used because they are too remote from the general public.

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Riordan).The right honorable member may not deal with libraries under this vote.

Sir EARLE PAGE:

– The Department of External Affairs should make it possible for any one who so desired to obtain a first-class knowledge of international affairs, commencing at the school age. Very great advantage would thus accrue to Australia.

Mr HOLT:
Fawkner

.- I cannot find in these estimates any provision to meet developments in Europe which would demand that Australia should have direct representation there during the next twelve months. We have a very great interest in possible post-war developments in Europe, and, being so remote, must make our plans even earlier than other countries, the representation of which would be immediately available. Migration and trade will be of very great interest to us, and we must have effective representation in order that the conditions in stricken European countries may be investigated, and in order that we may have sent to us advice which will assist us in dealing with those major problems. Before the war, Australia had representation in Paris, and I have no doubt that the High Commissioner in the United Kingdom made periodical visits to the Continent at the request of the Government.

Dr Evatt:

– We shall shortly arrange for representation in France. At present Mr. Bruce is acting as Minister to the

Netherlands, but he will cease to fill that position when the Netherlands have been released from enemy occupation.

Mr HOLT:

– Some honorable members are rather, uneasy. We know that these matters are being dealt with by Cabinet sub-committees; but Ministers are extremely busy with the detailed work of their departments, and it is feared that Australian plans will not be so advanced that our representation will be what it should be for these tremendously important tasks. I urge the Government not to lag in this respect, but to arrange as early as may be the representation that will be needed.

Mr WHITE:
Balaclava

.- I endorse all that has been said in regard to external affairs by the right honorable member for Cowper (Sir Earle Page). This morning, I expressed the view that a parliamentary committee on external affairs might assist the Minister, of whatever political persuasion he might be, because, perforce, Australia is becoming international in its outlook. The notice-paper contains three international subjects. The Attorney-General (Dr. Evatt) has travelled widely, and must realize the necessity for such an aid to his department.

Certain items in the Estimates are rather striking. I cite “ Cablegrams and Radiograms, £103,500 “; and “ University Diplomatic Cadet Corps, contribution to cost, £1,880 “. For comparison, this latter amount ought to be enlarged. Young Australians should have all the opportunities that are offered to young Britishers, who may enter the foreign and consular services, and take important posts in any part of the world.

Dr Evatt:

– This is merely a contribution to the University College at Canberra.

Mr WHITE:

– I am aware of that. There should be greater scope for Australians in the Department of External Affairs, the personnel of which is very small. Australians who have gone abroad and entered the British Foreign Office and the consular and other services have done extremely well. I need mention only the late Mr. Yencken, an outstanding man, who was killed in Spain; Mr. Greenway, a young man who filled an External Affairs post in Persia; Mr. Leeper, an Acting Ambassador; Mr. Peter Garran, son of Sir Robert Garran, of Canberra, who is in Portugal; Mr. Jordan, in Turkey ; and others who have achieved prominence in the British consular and diplomatic services. Men of their brilliance should have greater opportunities within the Australian service. The Diplomatic Cadet Corps could well be enlarged. Australia supplies a quota of Rhodes scholars, who complete their education at Oxford. Many of them do not return to Australia. Within the Department of External Affairs there is room for many Rhodes scholars who achieve distinction. We could expand this service and improve its efficiency.

I agree with the right honorable member for Cowper that the Empire Parliamentary Association should be considerably expanded and that the interchange of visits should be more frequent. The honorable member for Bass (Mr. Barnard), who recently returned from abroad, will agree that this is an essential feature of the education of parliamentarians, because it lessens their isolationist tendencies. The Minister for Transport (Mr. Ward) would be a better man if he were to visit Great Britain, the United States of America, and Russia - from which he derives a good deal of inspiration - because his diplomatic and political education would thereby be vastly improved.

The amount expended on Australian representation in India is far less than the possibilities warrant. I have been advised that there are immense trade possibilities in India, and know, from my long association with the Department of Trade and Customs, that what has been begun could be very greatly enlarged. The trade balance is very much against Australia. A large volume of exports could be obtained, yet the vote is rather parsimonious. I ask the Minister for External Affairs to ascertain whether or not the excellent trade representatives and other officials in India cannot be given more help. I should also like to know what views he holds in regard to improving the status of the office, and the entry of more Australians to the department, so that the services of dis tinguished Australian scholars may be retained instead of being lost to us.

Mr ABBOTT:
New England

– I agree with the honorable member for Balaclava (Mr. White) on the need to increase Australia’s diplomatic representation abroad after the war. I should like to know from the Minister for External Affairs (Dr. Evatt) what the future holds for men who have made service in his department their careers. Some have been holding posts as first secretaries for a good many years. Are they to regard themselves as having gone as far as possible, or are they to be treated as the United States of America and other countries treat their members of the diplomatic service, and be eligible for the highest posts.

Previously, the Dominions had no diplomatic representation in other countries. Representation abroad was left in the hands of what might be called unofficial ambassadors, men who had attained eminence in their professions. By virtue of that eminence, they came tobe regarded as the representatives of their country when they went abroad. The first notable representative of New Zealand to come to Australia was Mr. Robert Fitzsimmons, known to the world of “Fistiana” as the “Freckled Wonder”, who attained fame by knocking out “ Jim “ Corbett with a blow to the solar plexus. We know that courtesy is an outstanding characteristic of the Minister for External Affairs, but I do not think he was called upon to reciprocate by sending to New Zealand as Australia’s representative a man who has shown more ability as an exponent of the fistic art than as a diplomat. I think that is stretching reciprocity too far. I do not know much about our representative in Moscow, Mr. James Maloney, but I wonder whether his training in life really fits him for diplomacy. I impress on the Minister that when high diplomatic posts are being filled, every possible consideration ought to be given to the men in his own department. Every diplomatic cadet should know that the highest diplomatic posts that this country can offer are open to him*

Sir FREDERICK STEWART:
Parramatta

– I am glad to see an increase of £60,000 this year in the vote for the Department of External Affairs, not because there is any intrinsic merit in expending more money this year than last, but because the increase indicates an extension of the department’s activity in the diplomatic field. One lesson which all countries have learned in the last five dreadful years is that no nation can live unto itself, and that there must be continuous collaboration and communication with other nations. Countries formerly regarded as remote have’ become practically contiguous with the revolution in transport and communications. I am glad, therefore, that the Minister for External Affairs (Dr. Evatt) is following the lead given by me in extending our diplomatic representation abroad. It was my privilege while I occupied his post to institute legations at Washington, Chungking and Tokyo and, as Minister for Commerce, I also had the privilege of establishing trade representation in the United States of America, Canada, India and the Netherlands East Indies. I am, therefore, preaching what I have actually practised. I commend the Minister for the way in which he is extending Australian diplomatic representation throughout the world, and I am glad to learn from him that the extension has not yet finished. It is possible to have international collaboration by means of spasmodic conferences, but that method is not equal to the method of direct representation, which enables unbroken contact. I know only too well that extension of diplomatic representation of Australia abroad has been very difficult because of the non-availability of suitable experienced staff. Perhaps no public servants need to be more carefully chosen than those who represent Australia in other countries. The difficulty results in part from the fact that in Australia we, as yet, have nothing in the way of a diplomatic career service. I congratulate the Minister upon having initiated the diplomatic cadet system as the beginning of such a service. It will enable Australia to have at hand men to fill diplomatic posts, without having to draw on the High Court bench or take men from other important posts. I should like the Minister to explain why hist year postage, telegrams and telephone services cost the department £12,033 as against the vote of £5,000, and why >this year the proposed vote is £17,000.” I have not the slightest doubt that there is a satisfactory explanation, and I should like to have it.

Mr RYAN:
Flinders

.- I welcome the announcement by the Minister for External Affairs (Dr. Evatt) that it is proposed to increase our diplomatic representation abroad. At the earliest possible moment we should send representatives to the western European countries for the two reasons mentioned by the honorable member for Fawkner (Mr. Holt). First, we should do all we can to find markets for primary produce, for which it is quite certain that, when the war ends, there will be a large demand. Our trade can be extended not only through Unrra, but also by the efforts of our own representatives. Secondly, we should seek suitable immigrants in the western European countries, notably France, Belgium, Holland and Scandinavia. When I asked the Minister whether it was proposed that the heads of our missions abroad should be appointed from the regular diplomatic service, the Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin) interjected that we had also made political appointments. I have no objection to political appointments. Every country of which I am aware makes the more important diplomatic appointments from political ranks. I can quite understand the reason. Very often the ordinary members of the diplomatic service have not quite the necessary knowledge or, sometimes, the prestige. Nevertheless, we should be doing .a great disservice to our own diplomatic corps if the highest diplomatic positions in important countries were denied to them. I do not suggest that the Minister should choose men from the service to go to the highest posts in London, Washington and Paris, but such officers should fill some of the minor posts, in which they would do excellent work. Some of the appointments of diplomatic representatives have not been happily made. I shall not repeat the comments made by the honorable member for New England (Mr. Abbott), although I think there is a good deal of truth in some of them. The Minister, who has had a wide experience abroad, knows that I am speaking the truth when I say that it is of the utmost importance that the men who represent Australia should he selected with the utmost care. I have had a great deal of diplomatic experience, and I know what takes place in foreign capitals. The prestige and material interests of a country are very often influenced by the man who represents it. Apart from considerations as to education and general intelligence, the gentle- men appointed to these positions must have the right form of address to enable them to fill such posts to the satisfaction of the countries to which they are accredited. In other words, high intelligence and academic qualifications, which raise the prestige of men among the citizens of their own country, are not sufficient, unless the appointees are also “good mixers”. In future appointments, close attention should be paid to that quality.

Mr BERNARD CORSER:
Wide Bay

– I support the increase of tie diplomatic representation of Australia in other parts of the world, but I claim that, our representatives should have close knowledge of the trade requirements of this country and of the needs of our export industries. They should know something of the produce we have -to sell, and the conditions under which it can be delivered to other countries. These appointments should be considered from the point of view of trade requirements rather than political affiliations. I had hoped that an opportunity would have occurred for an early re-opening of diplomatic trade relations with France, which was one of our best customers prior to the war. That country is not now in a position to trade with us but neither is China. I cannot see that great benefit can result immediately from diplomatic and trade relations with China under present conditions. I notice that the proposed vote for the Australian Legation in China has increased from £29,500 in 1943-44 to £42,500 this year. The estimate for the High Commissioner’s office in India is £25,900. The estimate for ‘China is much larger than for any other representation except that in Great Britain. For the High Commissioner’s office in New Zealand, £9,300 is provided, and for our representation in Canada, £18,700. The Australian Legation in Russia is expected to require £35,000, yet the proposed vote for the Australian Legation in China is £42,500. I notice that, in the case of China, the proposed vote for the incidental expenditure of the Australian Legation has increased from £2,400 in 1943-44 to £7,000. I should like the Minister for External Affairs (Dr. Evatt) to inform the committee why so much money should be expended on the legation in China, as compared with those in other countries. I should be interested to hear why the cost of “ rent and maintenance, office and residence” in Russia is estimated to be £4,000 this year as compared with £1,500 in 1943-44. The vote to meet the cost of the upkeep of the official residence of the High Commissioner to the United Kingdom was only £600. The High Commissioner’s office in New Zealand is estimated to require £800 in respect of office and residence, whilst for India the proposed vote is £2,000 and that for Canada £1,500. The proposed vote for rent and maintenance of the office and residence of the High ‘Commissioner in Russia is £4,000, as compared with £1,500 last year. That vote seems to be rather high. In the case of the Australian Legation in China, the proposed vote for postage, telegrams, and cablegrams shows a reduction from £2,500 last year to £2,000 this year; but for the legation in Russia this item shows a reduction from £5,500 to £3,500. The large increase of the proposed vote for rent and maintenance of office and residence in Russia should be explained. I hope that at an early date, when the enemy in the Pacific region has been subdued, trade relations between Australia and the Netherlands East Indies and other countries, including South Africa, will be resumed. .Australian goods should be displayed and advertised throughout the British Dominions.

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:
Barker · ALP

– I hope that the committee will not confuse diplomatic with trade representation, because the two matters should be considered separately. I agree with the honorable member for Flinders (Mr.

Ryan) that great care should foe exercised in the selection of men for appointments to Australian legations overseas. It would be advisable to give opportunities in this direction to officials already in the various departments, who are known in the United States of America as “career men”. I should not object entirely to political appointments, but I do not think that the appointment made to the High Commissioner’s office in New Zealand was a good one. The sooner the present occupant of the position is recalled the better it will be for both the Commonwealth and New Zealand. One or two new appointments are looming at present, and the Minister for External Affairs (Dr. Evatt) would confer a great benefit on some of my friends in South Australia if he would decide once and for all who are to be selected. Another appointment, next in importance to that of the representative of Australia in Great Britain, is that of Australian Minister to “Washington. I fail to see why the vote for the High Commissioner in London should appear under the Estimates of the Prime Minister’s Department, whilst the votes for the High Commissioners for Canada, New Zealand, and India should be included in the Estimates of the Department of External Affairs. The arrangement appears to be anomalous, because all of those offices are doing similar work. The work of an Australian Minister to Washington calls for the appointment of a man with much greater talents than are required of the High Commissioner to New Zealand, and there should be a considerable differentiation between them with regard to salaries.

Mr HUTCHINSON:
Deakin

– I draw the attention of the Minister to the position with regard to newspapers circulated in this country and printed in foreign languages.

Dr Evatt:

– There is a general report on that by the Security Branch of the Attorney-General’s Department. I have been informed that the matter cannot .be discussed appropriately in considering the vote of the Department of External Affairs, but I shall let him know at what stage it can be dealt with.

Mr HUTCHINSON:

– I hope that members of the Government do not imagine that the Opposition is opposed to the appointment of representatives of Australia to overseas countries. Close consideration should be given as to the countries to which our representatives are to be sent, and great care should be exercised in the selection of the appointees. A blunder was made in the last appointment to Russia. I take no objection to Mr. Maloney personally, because he may be an estimable man. I believe that there is a false impression in the minds of Ministers with regard to Russia. Many people imagine that under the hammer and sickle there is a proletariat that is perfectly free, and that the people of Russia have a voice in shaping the policy of their country. That impression is wrong. Russia is purely a dictatorship, and it is becoming imperialistic in the old sense of the word. I have no doubt that, behind the walls of the Kremlin, there is a lively idea of the importance of those who rule in Russia, and of the importance of that country in the eyes of the world. If Australia chose its diplomatic representative haphazardly the Russian rulers would resent it. Some years ago, Great Britain appointed to Russia a highly placed public servant, and the Russian people resented it, believing that his status in England was not commensurate with the importance of the diplomatic post in Moscow. A similar feeling may have been aroused by the appointment of Mr. Maloney, despite his estimable qualities. It is most important that Australia should elect as its representatives men with political or diplomatic experience. Representing Australia in another country requires a considerable knowledge of both politics and diplomacy. Mr. Maloney did not possess either of those qualifications.

Dr EVATT:
Attorney-General and Minister for External Affairs · Barton · ALP

– Whilst I agree that the cost of cables is heavy, honorable members may not be aware that the numberhandled by the department per annum is 50,000 outwards and 50,000 inwards, an average of 140 a day. Regarding thematter raised by the honorable memberfor Parramatta (Sir Frederick Stewart), the Indian Ocean air service, which wasinaugurated recently, has made possible rapid communication between Australia and the Middle East, the United Kingdom, India and Moscow. Only a limited space is allotted to the department for the carriage of mail. It is used mainly for the offices of the Australian High Commissioner in London, the Legations in Moscow and Chungking, and the Australian High Commissioner in India. The rate per lb. is very heavy. For example, from Perth to Ceylon it is £1 13s. 5d. per lb. Additional charges are made for the final carriage of mail to Moscow, Chungking and New Delhi.

The Commonwealth Government proposes to extend ‘the representation of Australia to those countries that are regarded as being of crucial importance to our interests.

Mr Holt:

– My remarks regarding representatives had particular reference to the immediate position in western Europe.

Dr EVATT:

– Of course, that is most important, because our interest in Europe is considerable. I refer specifically to the Netherlands and France. As honorable members are aware, the Department of External Affairs some months ago introduced a system of diplomatic cadets, and the first batch of cadets have graduated. Every one of that group was most capable, and some were brilliant scholars. Every one of the men had seen actual combat service during this war. They will gradually be sent abroad to our various legations. One of them, who arrived in India a few days ago, had an extraordinary experience. The ship on which he was travelling was submarined, but he was saved, and is now a member of the High Commissioner’s staff in New Delhi. The cadet system is extending. The small vote referred to in the debate does not represent the total cost; it is simply a subvention to the University of Canberra for special lectures and studies in diplomatic practice and international law for the benefit of the cadets.

Honorable members have expressed their views regarding the qualifications that a candidate for appointment to these important offices should possess. I agree that permanent officers, who have embraced diplomacy as a career, should not be excluded from any office in the gift of the Government in the scheme of foreign representation. But accepting that as a principle, honorable members must be aware that it is often difficult to select men for particular posts, particularly in war-time. I agree with a good deal of what has been said in this discussion, but I shall never exclude any man because he has gained distinction in the public life of this country. That kind of service will not be regarded as a handicap or a disqualification because, in my view, it is a most important qualification.

Mr Ryan:

– Other things being equal.

Dr EVATT:

– No. That in itself may be, in a particular case, a very important consideration, and previous governments have recognized it in making appointments. One appointment to Washington, which the honorable member for Parramatta made when he was a Minister, was that of a gentleman who had won high distinction in Australian public life. That appointment, which was confirmed, recognized the principle that service in the public life of Australia is not to be regarded as a handicap to any appointment within the gift of the Government. Further, many officers have not been engaged for long in the Department of External Affairs, compared with the length of service of the average Commonwealth public servant, because, as the honorable member for Parramatta knows from experience, that department was for years the Cinderella of the Public Service. The plain fact is that the entry of Australia into international relations has been slow, but the department has developed rapidly during the war. The present Government has continued, in that respect, the policy of its predecessors. The promotion of career men, and, on special occasions, the selection of men who have played distinguished roles in public life can march together. Great Britain is represented in Washington by Lord Halifax, who is not a career man, but has filled that key post in wartime with great advantage to both countries. Sir Stafford Cripps went to Moscow on a special mission, Mr. Malcolm MacDonald was appointed High Commissioner to Canada, and Sir Ronald Cross was appointed High Commissioner to Australia. There are many precedents for appointing men from public life. The Government must preserve a balance between two approaches and I assure honorable members that in the appointments that are to be made, both factors will lie carefully examined.

I regret the reference made to the Australian High Commissioner in New Zealand. That criticism has not been voiced in the Parliament of New Zealand, and Mr. D’ Alton, in his despatches and work, and in his dealings with the New Zealand Government, has done an excellent job both for Australia and New Zealand.

When people speak on these subjects without a knowledge of the facts they often blunder. The honorable member for Deakin (Mr. Hutchinson) referred to the Australian Minister to Moscow, Mr. Maloney, in a critical strain. But Mr. Maloney has been an outstanding success in Russia. Before his appointment, he was secretary of the Boot Trades Union, was elected to the Legislative Council of New South Wales, and became president of the Trades and Labour Council. Apart from his despatches and reports, what has been told of him by the British Government, the Russian Government and the Polish Government, which he represented in certain respects, indicate a successful mission on his part. I am prepared to show to any honorable member correspondence that will convince them of this.

Mr White:

– Mr. Maloney for a period represented Polish interests in Russia. Why was that representation ended by the ‘Soviet?

Dr EVATT:

– The representation of Poland was not withdrawn from Mr. Maloney. It happened because Russia recognized the Polish Committee of National Liberation, whereas the Polish Government in London was recognized by the British Government, the Commonwealth Government, and the United States Government. Mr. Roosevelt and Mr. Churchill asked Australia to undertake the representation of Polish interests in Russia. It was a difficult job, and we performed it under a considerable handicap, in order to assist the Poles and the Russians, and in the hope that they would compose their differences. Mr. Maloney did excellent work.

Mr White:

– Will the Minister indicate how the department is expanding?

Dr EVATT:

– The expansion of the department is steady. I attach great importance to the cadet system. I shall welcome advice from honorable members when appointments are to be made. In war-time it is often difficult to appoint the best man to a position, but I consider that we have done the job well. I am obliged to honorable members for their positive suggestions.

Sitting suspended from 11.45 p.m. to 12.15 a.m. (Friday).

Friday, 22 September, 1944

Mr HUTCHINSON:
Deakin

– I shall now deal more fully with the subject I mentioned earlier, namely, the publication and circulation in this country of newspapers printed in a foreign language. I do not suggest that the views I propose to place before the committee are quite definite views. I have an open mind on the matter; but the points I intend to raise appear to have great merit, and are worthy of the consideration of the Government. 1 do not know how many newspapers printed in a foreign language are circulating in Australia to-day, but I should say the number is considerable. However, I am not so much concerned about the number of these newspapers, or the size of their circulation, although during the war that must be a matter of concern to the Government. I know that these newspapers are carefully watched in the interests of security. I a.m principally concerned about the publication of such newspapers in this country in the post-war period, and the effect of their circulation among foreign migrants who we expect will come to Australia in comparatively large numbers. Our first consideration, of course, is to do our utmost to facilitate the absorption of foreign migrants into the community, and to discourage them from segregating themselves from the community as a whole. Otherwise they will retain the ideals and customs of their native land for generations. The publication of newspapers printed in foreign languages will retard the absorption of foreign migrants into our democratic way of life. When I was in the United States of America

I was informed by representatives of the Anglo-Saxon section of the people of that country that the United States of America, for the reasons I have given, had made a great mistake in allowing the publication of newspapers printed in foreign languages. We should insist that all newspapers published in this country shall be printed in the English language. That will not constitute any infringement of the freedom of the press. The second principal means of absorbing foreign migrants into the community is through our schools. Whilst, perhaps, we may not be able to do very much in that direction so far :as older migrants are concerned, we can thus ensure that at any rate the children of foreign migrants will rapidly absorb British customs and traditions. I hope that the Minister for External Affairs (Dr. Evatt) will give urgent consideration to this matter.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Department of the Treasury.

Proposed vote, £2,172,600.

Mr ABBOTT:
New England

– With respect to the raising of loans, many complaints have been made to me of a practice on the part of officials of the Taxation Department, which must have a very detrimental effect upon subscriptions. I am informed that when certain people subscribe to war loans they are interviewed subsequently by an officer of the Taxation Department, who cross-examines them as to the source of the money they invest. As the Treasurer (Mr, Chifley) has urged the people to invest every spare penny in war loans, this practice on the part of officers of the Taxation Department of badgering, browbeating, and cross-examining investors is very strange. If the complaints which I have mentioned are based on fact, I advise the Treasurer to keep his bloodhounds on the chain.

I believe that subscriptions to war loans would be greatly increased if the Treasurer would arrange for not only the Commonwealth, but also the States, to accept bonds at par value in payment of probate duty. These bonds are held practically at par value by the Commonwealth Bank in all its operations. The only inference which con be drawn from any unwillingness on the part of the Treasurer to give effect to my suggestion is that he doubts whether the bonds will retain their face value in the post-war period. I urge him to get the Loan Council to agree to my suggestion.

Mr BREEN:
Calare

.Considerable delays occur in respect of applications for permission for the transfer of farming properties. For a long time, I could not understand the reason for such delays. However, I find that in the Estimates now under consideration provision is being made for only one clerk to handle these matters. I realize, of course, that the relevant authority has power to enlist the services of such officers as State land valuers and valuers of such bodies as shire councils.

Mr Abbott:

– Is there only one valuer for the purpose?

Mr BREEN:

– Provision is being made for only one clerk associated with the Land Board to attend to these transactions. Apparently, he is the liaison officer between that authority and all other bodies whose assistance is enlisted in this work; and it would seem that he is the only clerk who deals with applications for permission for the transfer of land. Probably, this explains not only the long delays experienced by applicants in such matters, but also the nature of many of the questions which are put to -applicants. Typical of those questions are the following : - “ Who was on the land in the last three years? Who was there for the three years prior to that? What is your estimate of the carrying capacity of the land for sheep and cattle? Compare your estimate of carrying capacity with the present actual carrying capacity”. Obviously, the officials responsible for those questions know nothing about the business. One can only conclude that from such information reports are compiled for subsequent examination by other officials; or, it is sought for the purpose of delaying the completion of these applications. The present position is creating very great dissatisfaction. In view of the delays occurring under such a system, both the person -proposing to occupy the land and the person vacating it are reluctant to proceed with farming operations, and this causes considerable loss of production.

Mr RYAN:
Flinders

.I also should like to refer to the subject raised by the honorable member for Calare (Mr. Breen). Applications for the transfer of land situated in my electorate have disclosed many anomalies in the present system, resulting in serious delays, to the detriment of those interested in such transactions. The National Security (Economic Organization) Regulations prescribe that no. person shall purchase any land, or take an option for the purchase of any land, without the consent in writing of the Treasurer. The owner of the land may submit his own valuation or that of an approved valuer. Should any doubt arise as to value, the matter may be referred to a government valuer. No one objects in principle to these regulations, because to-day there is an increased volume of money in circulation, and experience has shown that the first objective of speculation is land, because it always retains its value. It is of great importance that some control be exercised over land valuations and sales. But these regulations are being administered in a narrow-minded manner, and in such a way as to impede what would otherwise be straightforward transactions between farmers who wish to exchange land. In the last few months anything from ten to twenty cases, in which a great deal of interference with primary production has taken place, have been brought to my knowledge. These are perfectly normal transactions between farmers, with no question of speculation involved. One man wants to sell his farm because he is too old to carry it on, another has sons growing up and wants to extend his area, and a third wants to exchange one farm for another. There are three results of this interference. The first is delay, of which I shall give a few typical examples. I have here several cases which have been brought to my notice in the last few days. The first is of a farmer at “Warragul. The transaction was arranged on the 23rd May, four months ago, and no decision has yet been arrived at. The farmer has made repeated applications, but can get no i satisfaction. He is at present in possession of a herd of stud cattle, which he does not know what to do with, or where to place, because he cannot take over this land. The second case is at Narre Warren. The application for authority to sell on the one hand and to purchase on the other was made four months ago, and no decision has been arrived at. The third case is also in the Narre Warren district. The application was made in March, six months ago, and there has been no decision. As the honorable member for Calare said of his cases, all these people are farmers. If they want to change one farm for another, or to start farming, they must know beforehand when they can get on to the land, because they must make seasonal preparations, and they must be able to carry their dairy cattle through the summer and winter months. All this delay causes a great deal of difficulty and dissatisfaction. The second aspect is that of price. That is a very difficult question, which works both ways. In some cases, farms are sold at values appreciably above what should be paid if they were to be conducted as an economical proposition. On the other hand, and this is the case which I want particularly to bring to the notice of the Treasurer, quite a number of transactions are being refused because a valuer appointed by the Treasurer, or by his deputy, makes a valuation which is not in accordance with the view of the seller, or of those people who have valued the place independently, quite apart from the Government valuer. In those cases, not only are the transactions delayed, but sometimes they do not go through at all. I know one farm not very far from my own place. I know the farmer :and I know the value of the land. This man, who had 80 acres, had three sons called up. One of them tried to join the Air Force only a couple of months ago. The authorities told the son, that, as a primary producer, he must stay on the land and carry on the job. The farmer said to himself, “ I have a family growing up capable of working on the land, and I should therefore extend the size of my property”. He therefore entered into negotiations for a further 186 acres in tlie ‘Gippsland area. He arranged to sell the smaller farm, which he had bought four years ago for fl,600-odd, for £2,560, or £31 an acre. He bought the other farm for £41 an acre, and that transaction was approved, but the sale of his own property was not approved, and because he was £400 short of the actual amount required he was unable to carry out the second transaction. I brought the case to the notice of the ‘Commonwealth Actuary, who courteously went into it with me, but the final result is that permission has been refused, on the ground that the carrying capacity of the smaller farm was not in accordance with what he said it was. In other words, the owner of the farm maintains, and in this is supported by independent valuers, that the farm is in a condition to carry 35 cows, which it does in practice, whereas the government valuer said “ No “. He also worked out his value of the improvements. The farmer had included them at his own valuation in the total price of the property, but the government valuer decided that the amount was excessive. The price was therefore reduced from £2,560 to £2,14!7 on the ground that, in order to maintain the higher value, the owner would have to buy every year £43 worth of superphosphate - which, of course, could not be bought - and if that quantity was not put on the land the value of the farm would decrease. That is pure nonsense, as every farmer knows, because a farm which has been properly topdressed for years, with new pastures properly laid down, maintains its value. Its value does not decrease, as this valuer said it would. This is a really good farm and, in spite of the views of the Government valuer, the owner has, for the last two years, won the first prize for fodder in the farm competition in that area. I cannot help thinking that these transactions are dealt with by the department from a narrow-minded point of view. It does not matter to the Treasury whether a farm is sold for £31 or £26 an acre. The transaction is perfectly straightforward, and the amount involved is so small that it can make no difference to the Treasury.

In a number of cases, the purchase of a property is not allowed because the owner is said to possess another property. I can give one example of what this means in practice. After the last war a soldier discharged from the Army acquired a block of land in a bad district, but he cut the farm out of the bush and, with the help .of his wife, made it a really good property. That is its condition now after twenty years, and there is no debt on it, but as the result of all the work his wife’s health deteriorated to such an extent that the doctor ordered her to the seaside. She had some money, so went to Portsea, which is on the shore of Port Phillip, in my electorate, and bought a small block of land for a moderate price, but the Treasury will not allow her to take over the block, because her husband owns land in the country. She badly needs a place at the seaside for the sake of her health, and wants to live on the block, but is not allowed to do so. That is an illustration of the narrow-minded way in which the regulations are being administered.

– That is a small concession indeed, compared with the advantages enjoyed by troops serving overseas. To-day Australian Red Cross workers and others are going to Europe in connexion with the Unrra scheme and I contend that their earnings should be tax free. They are all volunteers, and some of them previously were in the fighting forces.

They are now taking up work for which the pay is very small indeed.

Mr HOLT:
Fawkner

.I ask the Treasurer (Mr. Chifley) if the time is not now opportune for the Government to review its policy with regard to the publication of certain statistical information which has been suppressed for security reasons in recent years. The absence of this information is a disadvantage not only to persons interested in public questions but also to commercial organizations. An anomalous situation arose some months ago when the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture (Mr. Scully) ruled that statistics relating to shipments of foodstuffs from this country to Great Britain should not be made public for security reasons, whilst the dominion of Canada featured the publication of these statistics as a guide to the valuable help which that dominion was able to render to Great Britain. Tn view of the general improvement of the security position of the Commonwealth, the Government should review the extent to which statistical information can now be made available to the public. Wrapped up with this matter is the publication of the Commonwealth Year-Booh. I understand that that book has not been published since 1941, and I am of the opinion that the publication should be resumed now so that our general knowledge of what is happening in the Commonwealth may be brought up to date.

I support the two points raised bv the honorable member for New England (Mr. Abbott). The first relates to the refusal of the Commonwealth, to accept its own bonds at face value for probate purposes. Refusal to accept its own securities in satisfaction of its own claims smacks of sharp practices or even fraud on the part of the Commonwealth. I am aware of the arguments which can be advanced against the acceptance of these securities, but those arguments have never appeared tome to be adequate to offset the overwhelming advantages which the contrary course offers. How can the Government expect the people to have real confidence in its stock when it says, in effect, that that stock may not always have its face value? I trust that the Treasurer will review this matter.

In regard to the inquiries which are made by taxation authorities into the circumstances in which investors in war loans have acquired their money, whilst I do not wish to take the part of persons who obtain money by fraudulent or dishonest means, I believe that here again it is in the interests of the Commonwealth to refrain from giving the slightest discouragement to people who may be inclined to invest their money in loans. Even assuming that some of the money invested has been acquired dishonestly, at least the Commonwealth has the satisfaction of knowing that it is not swelling the pool of purchasing power in the community, and thereby accentuating inflationary tendencies. I do not know to what degree the practice of interrogating investors is carried out, but I recall that during a recent loan campaign a certain incident occurred and was given considerable publicity which could not have strengthened the Treasurer’s chances of obtaining the finance which he required.

The third matter to which I wish to refer concerns the practice adopted, I think by the Treasury, and most certainly by the Commissioner of Taxation, in regard to interest payments upon taxation commitments in respect of which time to pay has been allowed. AsI understand the position, the Treasury makes not only a charge of 6 per cent. - a rate which it regards as unreasonable in other fields of investment - but more incomprehensibly it refuses to allow any such payment to be taken into account as an expense item in the accounts of the persons making it. So we have the anomalous position that the man who obtains an overdraft from the bank to pay his tax pays interest at 4¾ per cent., deducting it as a working expense, whereas, if he is not able to make arrangements with the bank, he has to pay the Taxation Commissioner 6 per cent, and is not able to deduct the interest as a working expense. I know one firm which made a profit of £16,000 on which the tax was £14,000. No business could immediately tap off that amount of its liquid capital and hope to keep in an operative state. Time to pay was granted by the Commissioner of Taxation who imposed a levy of 6 per cent, which, by the time the tax was paid, had reduced the former balance of £2,000 to £1,400. The Treasurer will see in that one instance that little encouragement is given to industry to carry on. It is improper that a government instrumentality should charge interest at a rate higher than financial institutions are allowed to charge and it is not fitting that the Government, which is not so prompt in the payment of its own debts, should adopt such a Shylock-like attitude to people, who, through no fault of their own, are not able to pay the tax on the due date. In any event, the interest should be a deductible working expense, as it would be if it were paid to a bank on an overdraft.

Mr HARRISON:
Wentworth

– I should like an assurance from the Treasurer (Mr. Chifley) that the requirement that property deals shall Independent on the buyer investing in Commonwealth bonds has been eased, because the restriction bears heavily on men who wish to buy a small block of flats in order to live in one and let the others, compared with wealthy concerns, which have no trouble in complying with the requirement and invest their surplus funds in big blocks of flats. One wealthy company was able to invest £70,000 in a block of flats because it had no difficulty in buying the necessary bonds.

Mr CHIFLEY:
Treasurer and Minister for Post-war Reconstruction [1.5 a.m.]. - The matter raised by the honorable member for Calare (Mr. Breen · Macquarie · ALP

has no association with land transfers. The transfers are carried out by the Treasury, but it is true that the Treasury does enlist the services of Taxation Department valuers. Both the honorable member for New England (Mr. Abbott) and the honorable member for Fawkner (Mr. Holt) referred to complaints which I have never been able to substantiate that people who have invested money in loans have been questioned by the Taxation Department officials as to its source.. I have read such complaints in newspapers, but never have I seen an instance of that having been done.

Mr Abbott:

– Well, I am informed that there have been many.

Mr CHIFLEY:

– I havenever been able to trace a specific case.

Mr Holt:

– My remarks were based on what I have read in the press.

Mr CHIFLEY:

– But the newspapers do not give any names.

Mr Abbott:

– I shall give the honorable gentleman the names of some people who have been questioned by the Taxation Department officials as to the source of their investments.

Mr CHIFLEY:

– I shall be glad if the honorable member will do so. I imagine that taxation investigators, in the course of examining some one’s affairs for other reasons, have said, “ Where did you ,get .the money for these bonds?” However, I shall ask the Taxation Commissioner if there has been any instance of a person’s affairs having been investigated because he had invested in a loan. The honorable member for New England and the honorable member for Fawkner also suggested that bonds should- be accepted as payment of death duties. Some years ago, the Loan Council decided that bonds should not be accepted for that purpose, because it was discovered that, if the bonds were below par, they were handed to the Taxation Commissioner, who had to accept them at par, whereas, if they were above par, they were sold on the open market, and the difference was pocketed. This matter was raised on another occasion and when I honoured my undertaking to place it before the Loan Council for reexamination, it declined to change the procedure.

The honorable member for Fawkner may rest assured that I realize the need for the Commonwealth Tear-Booh. I have made provision for it to be printed this year

The honorable member for Parramatta (Sir Frederick Stewart) protested against “ theatrical “ displays in Martin-place. Most countries engaged in loan raising find similar demonstrations of value. I am not very fond of entertainments, but I think that the demonstrations are worth while. Although the honorable member is displeased with what takes place, apparently other people regard the entertainments as useful.

The request of the honorable member for Bass (Mr. Barnard) that a taxation officer be stationed at Launceston will receive consideration when the man-power position improves. The Taxation Department is hopelessly understaffed. The members of the committee which recommended the introduction of uniform taxation were told that it would necessitate additional staff in the Taxation Department, but we have not been able to get it, and a heavy strain has been thrown on the department.

No doubt some of the complaints regarding land transfers are justified. There was a time in New South Wales when there were delays, but I have taken action which I think has improved the position. Land valuations in Victoria are in a chaotic state. Recently I arranged with the Premier of Victoria for the Land Valuation Section of the Victorian Public Service, which has a very experienced staff, to look after the matter on behalf of the ‘Commonwealth. I cannot let this occasion pass without paying a tribute to Mr. Bradley, the Treasury Sub-Accountant, to whose lot the work has fallen. I have a number of letters from estate agents and others in Victoria praising him for his courtesy. He tried to do the best he could in difficult circumstances and with a greatly insufficient staff. I shall examine the details of the case mentioned by the honorable member for Flinders (Mr. Ryan) if he will supply me with the names.

Mr Ryan:

– I shall do so.

Mr CHIFLEY:

.- I desire to pay tribute to the. Legal Aid Department, which the Attorney-General (Dr. Evatt) established to provide advice and assistance to the dependants of members of the fighting forces on matters such as tenancy, debt and repatriation. Mr. Savage and his assistant, Mr. Roberts, have rendered excellent service. It is due to the foresight and sympathy of the Attorney-General that the department has functioned- so efficiently. Regarding the repatriation section, some improvement could be effected. Whilst its members are able to give advice on pension matters to a returned soldier applicant, or to his dependants, it may act only as an observer in the various claims before the repatriation tribunals. The act provides that no qualified legal representative may appear on behalf of a claimant. I see no reason why a legal advocate should not represent the AttorneyGeneral at these hearings for the purpose of ensuring that the claim is properly presented to the Repatriation Commission or the tribunal concerned. This matter becomes important because of an unfortunate position that has arisen in regard to the pensions officer of the Second Ex-servicemen’s Association, Mr. Isackson. He had a brush with members of the War Pensions Assessment Appeal Tribunal. I do not desire to discuss the merits of the case. Mr. Isackson, whom I know personally, is a sincere and earnest gentleman, and is always anxious to help tie ex-servicemen. When he appeared recently before the assessment appeal tribunal, one of the medical members asked the claimant whether he had served abroad. Mr. Isackson objected to the question on the ground that it was irrelevant. The tribunal was dealing only with the assess ment of the pension,- and was not concerned whether the applicant was entitled to a pension. In my opinion, the matter should not have arisen, and Mr. Isackson considered that the question might prejudice the mind of the medical member of the tribunal. As the result of the dispute, Mr. Isackson was called upon to apologize, and he has not since been permitted to appear before the tribunal. The claimant had, thereafter, to conduct his own case, but, fortunately, he was successful. However, the present position is that members of that organization are denied the assistance of their representative. The point which I make is that members of theLegal Aid Department, who are trained legal advocates, might with advantage represent the Attorney-General himself at these hearings in order to ensure that cases are properly presented. Important questions and delicate matters arise, particularly in regard to medical evidence,, calling for the services of a trained advocate. With all respect to lay advocateswho appear before these tribunals, I think that a case could be better presented by a trained legal practitioner. If I required medical advice, I would consult, not .an engineer, but a doctor.

In New South Wales, any citizen who requires legal aid and who cannot afford to consult a solicitor, may obtain legal assistance free of cost from the State Legal Aid Department. Theofficer in charge is Mr. MacRae,. an eminent member of the Crown Law Department of New South Wales. Mr. Gordon Champion, the Public Defender, is an outstanding advocate. If any member of the community,, even a criminal, is able to obtain legal assistance free, surely a similar right should be granted to members of the fighting services or their dependants. I urgethe Attorney-General to discuss thismatter with the Minister for Repatriation (Mr. Frost). I recommend the adoption of the procedure followed in Canada, where the Government of the dominion employs a trained advocate to appear before repatriation tribunals for the purposeof representing returned soldier applicantsfor pensions. Many of the disputes,, which now arise in claims for pensions,. would be avoided if my advice were followed.

Sir FREDERICK STEWART:
Parramatta

– I direct the attention of the Attorney-General (Dr. Evatt) to two cases which apparently have features identical with those mentioned by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Harrison). I gained the impression, when the Minister interjected a few minutes ago, that authority to effect transfers of land would not be granted if the proposed transferee was an alien of enemy origin. I hope >that the determination will not be so arbitrary, but rather that national security will be the dominant influence.

Dr Evatt:

– I said that ,the power to refuse any particular applicant arose only in .that type of case. But the power is exercised, broadly speaking, on security grounds.

Sir FREDERICK STEWART:

– The two cases which I propose to cite, are well outside that category. One applicant was the manager of a company which was substantially British-owned. He was carrying on an important business in essential articles and desired to buy a home for himself and his family. The -application was made first to the delegate to the Treasurer, under the National Security (Economic Organization) Regulations, and was approved. The purchaser then applied to the Attorney-General’s Department under the Land Transfer Regulations. A few weeks later, he became a British subject, but, unfortunately, he was refused permission to purchase the dwelling.

In the second case, a doctor who was originally a Hungarian subject, came to Australia with British medical qualifications, and was registered here as a medical practitioner with full practising rights. While in England, he married an Englishwoman of unquestionable integrity. Her brother is an officer in one of the Guards Regiments. The doctor, who has a large practice in an industrial area, recently, became a naturalized Australian citizen. When he applied recently for permission to transfer to himself the premises in which he resides, the Attorney-General’s Department refused his application. Unless the facts have been incorrectly stated to me, the question of national security would not arise in these cases to prevent the issue of the necessary authority. If the Attorney-General desires to investigate the cases, I. shall supply him with the names of the two persons.

Mr HOLT:
Fawkner

.The matter raised by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Harrison) has important, implications, and calls for earnest examination by the AttorneyGeneral (Dr. Evatt). I understand that the authority under which permission to purchase property may be refused, is contained in National .Security Regulations. Therefore, the sole legal basis for them would be the security of the Commonwealth. It seems a little far-fetched, at, this stage of the war, to take the view that the .purchase of a few blocks of land, or houses by people of, say, German or Austrian origin, will threaten the present security of the Commonwealth.-

Mr Calwell:

– The honorable member for Indi (Mr. McEwen) made a feature of it during the last election campaign, and complained that too much leniency had been shown.

Mr HOLT:

– The honorable member for Indi was speaking for himself, no doubt. Here is a principle in which honorable members should be directly interested. There has been a tendency, accentuated during the . war, to allow racial prejudices to develop to an unsatisfactory and unhealthy degree in this country. Often during the budget debate, honorable members emphasized the desirability of attracting European migrants to Australia in the post-war period. Our first step should be to create conditions under which these .people will feel, when they settle here, that they are under no greater disability in carrying on their economic, social and domestic life than are our own citizens. Only reasons of national security justify the maintenance, even in war-time, of conditions that impose substantial disabilities upon people of this type. The Government, as a matter of policy, should remove any such disabilities immediately the necessity imposed by security passes. We gather from press reports that the special committee appointed by the Government to examine national security regulations has recommended that some of the restrictions imposed upon the movement of people of this class should be lifted. The whole subject of excessive restrictions upon persons of alien origin, who are classed as enemy aliens, or refugee aliens, should be re-examined in the light of the present war situation.

Mr HUTCHINSON:
Deakin

– I have been asked by one of my constituents, Mr. Eric Butler, of Bellevueavenue, Rosanna, Victoria, to ventilate certain complaints in this chamber. This gentleman became involved in an inquiry instituted by the AttorneyGeneral (Dr. Evatt) under the chairmanship of Mr. Justice Reed, arising out of what has become known as the Bean case, which was heard in the High Court. Mr. Butler is a believer in the financial theory usually described as social credit. I believe he is as sincere in his belief in that theory as I am in my beliefs with respect to financial systems. On Tuesday the 29th August, to his surprise and indignation, a detective from the Victorian Police Department served upon him a summons issued by Mr. Justice Reed, and, on the following morning, the same detective, accompanied by two ‘ other detectives, again called on Butler, and drove him 100 miles to Melbourne in order to enable him to attend the inquiry which was held in the High. Court buildings. Mr. Butler wishes to protest against being arrested in this way. He protests against the proceedings at the inquiry, and the rather outrageous behaviour on the part of a gentleman about whom we have heard before, Mr. Alderman, K.C., of Adelaide, who assisted the chairman. Mr. Butler was home on 24 days’ leave after serving in the Army at a northern battle station for a period of eighteen months. He resented being deprived of a certain portion of his leave period in that way. He states that he had no knowledge of the circumstances that led to the settingup of the inquiry. As I said, he had been away on active service, and he had not contacted any member of Parliament with respect to the case, as certain other people did. At the inquiry, he was subjected to a searching interrogation by Mr. Alderman, which, he claims, was designed to discredit him and other believers in social credit. This cross-examination amounted to an attack upon his integrity, and would leave the impression that in some way he had been indulging in nefarious practices to the detriment of the nation’s war effort. Mr. Alderman called two witnesses who, apparently, were German internees, and, by skilful crossexamination of those witnesses, attempted to show that they were closely connected withsocial credit, the implication being that in some way those internees were associated with Mr. Butler. In a letter to the honorable member for Fawkner (Mr. Holt), dated the 18th February, 1944, the Solicitor-General, Sir George Knowles, stated -

One important aspect of the inquiry is of direct concern to Security Service, the suggestion being that bona fide believers in financial reform are being used to prevent the operation of existing Commonwealth laws and institutions, e.g., ( 1 ) the judicial system ; (2) the man-power system; (3) the rationing of clothing; and (4) the rationing of meat. In particular, the suggestion is that bona fide believers in Douglas Credit or social reform are being misled by persons who are either enemy agents or doing the work of the enemy in this country. Whether this is so or not is obviously a matter of great concern to Security.

Mr. Alderman put certain questions to Mr. Butler, by which he implied that Mr. Butler did not want to take the oath when he joined the Army, that his means of livelihood before the war were suspect, and that he was in f favour of a negotiated peace with Japan. Obviously, these questions would be resented by a man who had just been on active service for eighteen months. The Attorney-General (Dr. Evatt) should give a clear answer to these allegations, because it is of vital importance to Mr. Butler that his character be cleared. Mr. Butler, in a letter to me, asks the following questions: -

Who drew up the terms of reference of the inquiry? Who appointed Mr. Alderman, K.C.! How was he appointed? What instructions, if any. was he given ? Who decided “the names of the witnesses to be called in Melbourne? What instructions, if any, were given to that Board, as to how witnesses were to be obtained ? Has the Attorney-General’s Department any evidence from Commonwealth Security or other official authorities, that I have ever engaged in any activities which endangered the security of the Commonwealth or in any activities which could be termed disloyal ?

He goes on to say that his character has been impugned, and that he wishes to clear himself. This matter has already been brought to the notice of the AttorneyGeneral who, no doubt, is cognizant of all. the facts. I should like him to give in public some explanation of these strange proceedings in order to enable !M’r. Butler to clear his name.

Mr FADDEN:
Leader of the Australian Country party · Darling Downs

– Last year the appropriation proposed in respect of the publication of Commonwealth statutes and statutory rules amounted to £4,500, of which £1,885 was actually expended, and this year it is proposed to provide £4,700 for that purpose. As the special committee appointed by the Government to investigate statutory rules and regulations has recommended that they be reduced by 50 per cent., I should like to know the reason for the proposed increased expenditure on this item.

Dr EVATT:
AttorneyGeneral and Minister for External Affairs · Barton · ALP

– In reply to the right honorable member for Darling Downs (Mr. Fadden), I point out that, owing to pressure of work, the department was not able to complete the 1942-43 volume of statutory rules in the financial year 1943-44’. Therefore, it will be necessary to publish two volumes in the present financial year in order to complete the record. That is the explanation for the proposed increased expenditure on that item.

In reply to the honorable member for Wentworth (Mr. Harrison), the regulations provide in substance that a person shall not enter into any contract, or agreement, for the sale of land to a naturalized person of enemy origin, or with a subject of a country in enemy occupation, unless the consent in writing of the Attorney-General has first been obtained. Following the example of my predecessors, I delegated my power of consent to the Solicitor-General who administers this very difficult provision in the national security regulations. The fact of naturalization does not exclude the necessity for consent if the person is of enemy origin, for example, a person who, prior to becoming a British subject, was an enemy subject. I agree that it is difficult to prevent anomalies from creeping into the regulations. If the honorable member for Parramatta (Sir Frederick Stewart) will give to me the names of the two persons whose cases he mentioned, I shall have those cases investigated. In the case mentioned by the honorable member for Wentworth, the application has been granted.

Sir Frederick Stewart:

– If a. man is deemed fit to practise as a doctor, he should be a fit person to own a home

Dr EVATT:

– It is all right to start off with that argument; but the practice is to refer each application for investigation. In all cases inquiries are made as to whether any objection to an application arises on security grounds. -Another question that is always asked is whether there is any public feeling in the particular neighbourhood concerned, against a transaction of this type. I can understand that feeling. For instance, it is very pronounced among residents in certain districts in the electorate of Indi, who object strongly to anything which indicates the systematic acquisition of property by aliens while our soldiers are absent. The soldiers’ organizations also object to it. The matter raised by the honorable member for Fawkner (Mr. Holt) is of general importance. The power to refuse consent arises under a national security regulation. What is necessary for the security of the country in a time of acute crisis may not be necessary after the crisis disappears. I believe that these regulations go much further than anything of the kind in Great Britain. I do not think that the British regulations have ever gone to this extent. In peace-time, this type of law might be dealt with by the Parliament by statute passed under its own power over aliens and naturalization. If the Parliament wished, some restriction could be imposed, or, if the National Parliament did not wish to act, the States could do so. My own feeling is that the time has arrived for a complete review of the whole system of the acquisition of land or the restrictions upon it, either by the Regulations Committee or by the Aliens Classification Committee, in order to ascertain whether the anomalies can be removed. It is a difficult jurisdiction to exercise. At present the consent is determined by reference to the merits of the particular case. It is placing a great strain upon the Solicitor-General and his officers. Behind it there is the good purpose of preventing something which would be detrimental at any rate to the morale of the country in war-time, and the fear that, there is a systematic attempt to buy up land at a time when the soldiers are away.

Mr Fadden:

– That feeling is very rife in the north.

Dr EVATT:

– I am not surprised to hear it. However, those are the facts. I shall look into the particular cases raised by honorable members. I am particularly impressed by what the honorable . member for Fawkner (Mr. Holt) said. I think in principle that is true, and that what was required by national security in 1942 is probably not required in 1944. How far we should alter the regulations is a matter for close investigation. It is a very difficult and delicate decision to make in these cases. They cause great anxiety to the SolicitorGeneral and I suppose only one in a hundred of them ever reaches me. I have the assistance of the honorable member for Darling (Mr. Clark), who has reviewed the cases, and I do not think that he has often disagreed with the decision of the officers. Speaking quite frankly, there must be a percentage of error, and there must be individual instances where consent has been refused when probably it should have been granted, or granted when perhaps it should have been refused. The regulations will, of course, be self-operating in the direction of the removal of restrictions as they apply to persons who are subjects of countries under enemy control. For instance, as France is liberated, the French will pass out of the category where consent is required, and the same applies to Belgium and Holland. I propose to have the whole matter looked into, and am glad that the cases mentioned have been brought to my notice.

– That may be. The honorable member for Fawkner asked the honorable member for Deakin that question when he was speaking. I do not think that Security Service suggests anything which reflects on the loyalty of the honorable member’s constituent, who may have been wrongly called as a witness, but I cannot believe that he was arrested. They were probably serving a subpoena on him to give evidence and the investigating officers took a car out for him. He gave the impression in his letter .that he was arrested. If there are any other circumstances in connexion with the matter which the’ honorable member desires to ascertain he can read the letter which I sent to Mr. Butler.

When the report of the tribunal is received, if any injustice has been done it will be remedied. He also said in his letter that the judge thought that the questions were very remote from the inquiry. If so, that will also emerge.

Mr Calwell:

– The honorable member for Deakin has attempted to “ smear “ Mr. Alderman.

Dr EVATT:

- Mr. Alderman waa briefed as counsel in the usual way. He is well known as one of the leaders of the South Australian bar, of which he is a distinguished member. He has appeared to assist the Commonwealth in important Army and Navy matters. I hope that the report of the inquiry will be available shortly.

Mr ADERMANN:
Maranoa

– I bring to the notice of the Attorney-General (Dr. Evatt) what I think is an unduly hard case. I refer to a man who came from an enemy country 20 or 30 years ago and formed part of a group settlement. He took up land under a Queensland” act and made his payments each year. He has now paid the total amount and is due to receive the title, but it has been refused. He is a naturalized subject and has been here for 30 years. Unless there is some background to this ease he is entitled to justice.

Dr Evatt:

– I think so, too. If the honorable member will give me the name and address of the man I shall see that the case is looked into immediately.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Department of the Interior.

Proposed vote, £590,000. ‘

Mr FADDEN:
Darling DownsLeader of the Australian Country party

– Can the Minister representing the Minister for the Interior give the committee any details of the Government’s immediate programme for Canberra’s development, and also its postwar programme? This is a very important matter at this juncture, because Canberra is the National Capital, and the committee is entitled to some information in regard to what the Government has in mind for its development now and in the post-war period.

I wish to bring before the committee the matter of migration. In my speech on the budget I expressed regret that the budget did not contain any financial allocation for a matter of such major importance. Admittedly, the Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin) in his speech on the budget, mentioned that Australia, in order to be self-reliant, needed a big increase of population, not only to develop its resources but also to contribute materially to its- capacity to withstand attack and to ensure a stronger voice in world affairs. However, the right honorable gentleman left it at that. His brief -reference to this question must have disappointed every member of this House as much as it disappointed me. It is time that the Government clarified its migration plans and took Parliament and the people into its confidence. According to the press, a departmental sub-committee has been considering the matter for a considerable time. What has it recommended? What has the Government decided ? Reports from all quarters indicate a growing interest among prospective migrants. On the 2nd September, Sir Louis Bussau, who has been Agent-General for Victoria in London since 1938, stated that the indefiniteness of the Government’s migration plans meant that other dominions would receive the most desirable migrants. Last May the Melbourne Argus reported that tens of thousands of Scandinavian and Baltic peoples were anxious to migrate to Australia after the war, and reported the Prime Minister as stating in London that he would be glad to have migrants from such countries. While the Prime Minister was abroad, cables indicated that migration was discussed at the meeting of Empire Prime Ministers, and on the 26th May, the acting Prime Minister, Mr. Forde, stated that the Government intended to embark upon a positive migration policy immediately after the war. He admitted that to delay migration plans would lose desirable citizens, but beyond reiterating that we should seek new citizens from among British ex-servicemen and British children, he did not indicate any plans for achieving this object. The latest to enter the discussion is the Minister for the Interior (Senator Collings), who, on the 13th September, according to the Daily Telegraph said that all restrictive immigration formalities would be waived to facilitate the settlement of United States of America servicemen in Australia after the war. What are the restrictive formalities? Is it the policy of the Government that whatever they are, they will be waived ? It is time Parliament had a clear and full statement of the Government’s plans, if any. Within the last few days, the Government has called for applications from members of the ‘Commonwealth Public Service for the position of migration officer at the munificent salary of £784 to £86-6. Does the Government think that this task of the first magnitude calling for ability, imagination, courage and executive experience, can be performed satisfactorily by a person receiving £16 a week? The suggestion is simply ridiculous. The future security of Australia depends too much upon its migration activities during the next two decades for the job to be relegated to a member of the ‘Commonwealth Public Service. It is one of the most* difficult and most important post-war problems that face this country. For that reason alone, it should be lifted above the realm of party politics so that a long-range plan may be formulated and may continue irrespective of what government holds office in Canberra during the next ten to twenty years.

The Victorian Premier, Mr. Dunstan, was reported recently in the Melbourne Age as having asked the Commonwealth to confer with the States on this matter. He said, “ What I am now trying to emphasize is that unanimity on migration should be aimed at and achieved.” The policy decided upon should be practical, courageous and definite and, at the London end, all State Agents General should be co-opted to work harmoniously with the High Commissioner for Australia. I ask the Prime Minister to give this matter urgent and careful consideration with a view to setting up a parliamentary committee representing all political sections of the Parliament to frame a long-term policy to which the House can subscribe. Following whatever legislation may be necessary, the execution of such a plan should be placed under the direction of a parliamentary commission of three members, responsible directly to Parliament itself. As chief migration executive officer we should have the best man available, whether he is inside or outside the Commonwealth Public Service, and pay him a salary commensurate with the importance o? his task.

In giving effect to any migration policy, it will be necessary to coordinate the activities of all Government agencies overseas, so that trade and tourist propagandists will not be offering gold bricks while .migration publicity is trying to sell hard facts. This coordination could best be achieved by a parliamentary commission using the established Commonwealth Public Service machinery of the Department of the Interior, Department of Information and other departments.

I have given considerable thought to this matter, because I believe that the solution of the basic problems which we shall have to face in the postwar years, depends upon increasing The population of this country. When the war ends, we shall have heavy financial commitments, our national debt will be enormous, and our responsibilities as a nation will be far too great- to be borne by a population of 7,000,000. This country has immense potentialities and could support many times its present population. I have made these suggestions in a non-party spirit, because I believe that this important subject transcends all political considerations. The very basis of our economic welfare and the foundation of our future security are related to an expeditious stepping up of the peopling of this country. In the interests of the destiny of this nation, the Government must consider urgently the problem of spreading our population more economically and more sensibly over the land. It ls obvious that far too large a proportion of our meagre population is settled in the capital cities. As I have said before, the spread of population in this country resembles a cluster of ants on a saucer - all round the edge and very few in the centre. The time is ripe for definite action ,to solve our population problem so that we may play our full part in the post-war world. Et is for those reasons that I urge early consideration of this matter in a non-party spirit.

Mr WHITE:
Balaclava

– I support the suggestion that has been made by the right honorable member for Darling Downs (Mr. Fadden). In my budget speech I dealt with the question of migration, and expressed the opinion that Great Britain would be receptive to overtures from Australia in that regard. In the past, our migration policy has been badly handled. We induced people to come to this country in the belief that they had only to settle on the land and they would do extremely well. We all know that that is not the case. Instead, we should have encouraged more artisans to come here to enter our secondary industries. Had the trade unions welcomed such migrants in that category who did come, the position might have been different, but they did not do so. Just prior to the war, migration to this country which had ceased early in the depression years, started again, and the scheme under which British subjects could come to Australia at a cost of £33 - £11 contributed by the British Government, £11 by the Commonwealth Government, and £.11 by the migrant himself - was reinstituted. That was an excellent nomination scheme and it is regrettable that the outbreak of war forced its abandonment. There are hundreds of men in the Royal Air Force who desire to come to Australia, and have said so to Australians serving with that force; but they will not come here unless we oan assure them of security of employment. Therefore, the proposal which has been made by the right honorable member for Darling Downs should be supported. We must realize that this subject is of paramount importance to this country, and must be placed above party politics. Only if we do that shall we be able to solve the problems which will arise not only in our own minds, but also in the minds of prospective migrants. We must remember that the British people have an equity in the social service schemes now operating in the United Kingdom, and unless they can look forward to enjoying similar benefits in this country, or ‘bring them with them, they will be loath to leave their own land. After all, reconstruction work and the re-establishment of trade will absorb a great deal of labour in Great Britain, and there will have to be some definite inducement to attract migrants from that country. The problem is one that must be tackled immediately. Great Britain will not make the overtures to us, but I am sure that if we take the initiative, the Governments of this country and of the United Kingdom will be able to get together and decide what quotas of adult migrants should come here. Then there is the proposal that British war orphans should be brought to this country. The Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin) is favorable to the idea, and I understand discussed it whilst he was in Great Britain. He has favorably received a deputation from all parties of this House. At the moment we are uncertain of the British attitude to the proposal, but as one sponsoring the scheme in Victoria I can say that already we have obtained a substantial list of people who wish to adopt these children.

Mr Lazzarini:

– The matter is receiving consideration.

Mr WHITE:

– I am glad to hear that, and I believe that the Minister for Home Security (Mr. Lazzarini) will agree that the right honorable member for Darling Downs had ample reason for bringing this matter up. Here is an opportunity to take action which will not only benefit Australia, but which also will be a muchappreciated Empire gesture. The attraction of British adults to this country may be a little more difficult. Regular employment will have to be offered. Unfortunately many Britishers hold the belief that they are not wanted in this country. That impression may be due, in part at> least, to the fact that during the depression years quite a number of disillusioned British migrants in this country went home and spread the idea that new settlers were not welcomed in Australia. That conception must he dispelled, and that is a job to which the Minister for Information (Mr. Calwell) might well apply his enthusiasm. The Pair-bridge scheme is a grand Empire experiment which was initiated by a

South African Rhodes Scholar. Those who have seen what has been done under that scheme in Western Australia and in Victoria and New South Wales, will agree that it is worthy of development. When I was in Great Britain I was approached by the secretary of the Fairbridge scheme who, incidentally, is an Australian. He asked me if Ave were prepared to collaborate in extending the scheme. We have only to say that we are prepared to assist in ;any way possible, and the organizers of that scheme will proceed immediately with their plans.

I wish to deal now with the anomalies created by the acquisition of land by the Department of the Interior in the vicinity of Essendon aerodrome. Mention has been made already of the injustices that have been done to people who bought land in that area, and then had it acquired by the Government at ridiculously low prices. They paid in some instances inflated prices, but all the Commonwealth gave them was about one-tenth of the actual cost. The right honorable member for Yarra (Mr. Scullin) and the honorable member for Ballarat (Mr. Pollard) have spoken on this matter in this chamber. When a deputation waited on the Minister for the Interior (Senator Collings) in Melbourne he would allow only the Minister for Labour and National Service (Mr. Holloway) into his office, and that Minister later assured honorable members that he had been more or less thrown out. Members of the deputation declared that they bad scarcely a chance to say a word. The Minister for the Interior told them what he thought. The Prime Minister was impressed when this matter was first raised, but later he said that there were certain rules in acquisition and that the Government could not go beyond the values fixed by the government valuers assisted by outside valuers. Yet the municipal valuers, on whose valuations the rates are paid, have been ignored. The honorable member for Flinders (Mr. Ryan), the honorable member for Fawkner (Mr. Holt), the honorable member for Deakin (Mr. Hutchinson ) and various members of the Australian Country party are others who have spoken about the matter and cited extraordinary cases. They have been brushed aside by this rather autocratic Minister for the Interior. However, he assured me about nine months ago that he would supply to me the names of the valuers to display how fair the acquisition was. But nothing has come to pass. These people may not have been robbed, but at least they have been treated in a most cavalier fashion by the Government, which claims that it always does the right thing. These people are not profiteers, monopolists, or pressure groups, but citizens who bought blocks of land on which to build homes. They did not want to sell, but the land was taken from them. They have had a shabby deal and the matter should be adjusted.

Mr HOLT:
Fawkner

.-I refer the Minister for Home Security (Mr. Lazzarini) to the two speeches I have already made on the matter referred to by the honorable member for Balaclava (Mr.White) . The matter of immigration is of great urgency. With the cessation of hostilities in Europe, an opportunity will be presented to us to persuade migrants to come to Australia which, if it be lost, may never be recaptured. I strongly believe that the Government is not aware of the urgent need to take action, not so much in Great Britain as in continental Europe. We can form a mental picture of the condition in which many thousands of people in Europe will find themselves when the fighting ceases. Their countries will have been devastated, industries destroyed, and in many instances homes ruined. Many must be and will be feeling sick at heart at the prospect of starting life afresh in an atmosphere in which they have experienced so much bitterness, repression by secret police, and all the unhappiness of the last ten or twenty years. So we can imagine that, properly presented to them, the appeal of a new country which will seem remote from the wretchedness and misery that they have experienced will be strong. I do not expect that we can look to Great Britain for any large influx of migrants. The British are themselves faced with a population problem as serious as our own. Great Britain will not be able to denude itself of the young and virile elements for twenty years after the present struggle ends, because it is on those elements that it will depend for the solution of its own reconstruction problem. In Europe, however, there should be great opportunities for us to attract masses of people who wish to start life anew, because all they hold dear has tumbled about their ears. Australia is a land to which they should look as offering fresh opportunities. I, therefore, impress upon the Government as earnestly and as urgently as I can the need to create at the earliest possible time the machinery to attract to this country from Europe migrants of a desirable type. There may be a fear that large numbers of immigrants would add to the problem of the rehabilitation of our own service men and women and the belief that embarkation on an immigration policy should be delayed fora few years. Delay would be a fatal mistake, because there should be adequate opportunities of employment in this country, not only for our own men and women from the services and war-time industries who will be looking for new occupations, but also for tens, perhaps hundreds, of thousands of immigrants in the years immediately after the war. This is not the time to dilate on the opportunities of employment which will be available, but I do ask the Minister to impress on his colleagues the urgency of action in this matter.

Mr SHEEHAN:
Cook

.I direct the attention of the Government to the necessity to provide proper accommodation for the Department of Social Services in Sydney. The administrative staff of 300, of whom 250 are females, is housed in an old, badly lighted, and badly ventilated building formerly used as a drug store, and members of the public are interviewed under conditions which are a disgrace to the Government. Old people who have to attend for interviews about pensions have to sit on wooden forms in dirty corridors while awaiting their turn. In the child endowment section, the waiting bench is between the public and the counter, behind which are the clerks, and, if a person is at all hard of hearing, he has to kneel on the bench to hear the clerk. There is absolutely no privacy. A new building to bouse both the Department of Social Services and the Repatriation Department should be erected on the site of the old exhibition building in Prince Alfred Park. That unsightly building, which has been used, as a wool store, should be demolished at the first opportunity. The site is eminently suitable, because it is within 200 or 300 yards of the Central Railway Station and is passed by almost every tram and train that enters Sydney. It is all the more necessary that the new building be erected because of the wasteful expenditure on rent. It is estimated that rents will absorb £148,400 of the vote of the Department of the Interior this year compared with £1.68,000 last year. The Department of the Treasury estimated that it would pay out £95,000 in rents last year, but only £66,851 was expended, and this year it has budgeted for a rent expenditure of £74,300. It is essential that the Department of Social Services be housed in premises of which the Government can be proud. It is necessary, too, that members of the public should be able to transact all business that they may have with the department in the one building instead of having to travel all over Sydney to deal with scattered sections. Only two acres of the 25 acres in Prince Alfred Park would be absorbed by the proposed building and, in any case, with the exhibition building there, the area would not be encroaching on park lauds.

Mr. HARRISON (Wentworth) [2.42 a.m.’j. - I support the observations of the Leader of the Australian Country party (Mr. Fadden), the honorable member for Fawkner (Mr. Holt) and others on the subject of .immigration. I believe that conditions are ripe in Europe for us to embark on a policy of attracting to this country large numbers of western Europeans who will be glad to come to a land where there is no Gestapo or other brand of secret police and where mcn are free. The Government should act promptly in this matter when the war ends in Europe, because when the reconstruction of the war-torn European countries begins, the people whom we should like to have here may be tempted to remain in their homeland to help in the reconstruction. I agree with the honorable member for

Fawkner that we cannot look to Great Britain for help in building up our population. Great Britain will have its own problems to solve and will not be able to afford to allow large numbers of citizens to migrate. The Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin) has already told us that Great Britain as a source of population for the Dominions is out of the question. There, however, may be bright prospects of our providing a home for some of Great Britain’s orphan children. Those prospects may be held by the Government. Something ought to be done, too, to encourage the surplus population of America to settle in Australia. Many of the American soldiers who have learned what possibilities Australia offers may establish themselves here if the Government makes conditions sufficiently attractive. Hitherto, however, the experience of the average migrant to Australia is that if he goes on the land he immediately becomes saddled with debt to such a degree that there is no possibility of success. Hence many settlers in Australia have abandoned their farms and gone hack to Great Britain. A new type of administrative machinery should immediately be provided in order to capitalize the position that will arise when the war is over.

Sir Frederick Stewart:

– Those transfers could involve only administrative staffs. Large staffs would still be required in the capital cities.

Mr LAZZARINI:

– Two-thirds of the staffs of the departments in Sydney and Melbourne should be transferred to Canberra.

Mr Fadden:

– The Defence Department, for a start.

Mr LAZZARINI:

– There is no reason why the Department of Social Services and many others should not be transferred to Canberra. At present they have comparatively small staffs here. I shall bring to the notice of the Minister for the Interior the representations made by honorable members, and I have no doubt that he will refer to the subjects in the Senate next week.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Department of Civil Aviation

Proposed vote, £391,300.

Mr WHITE:
Balaclava

– The Estimates make provision for the payment of £1,500 to “ aero clubs and gliding clubs “ this year. The aero clubs of Australia have fostered aviation, and supplied many instructors and air crews for the Royal Australian Air Force during this war. From time to time these clubs received light aircraft, some engines and a little financial assistance from Commonwealth governments. The gliding clubs are a smaller organization and less financial than the aero clubs. They exist in every State, and received microscopic allowances for a number of years. No Minister for Air has ever taken gliding seriously, because it is claimed that they are of no value to the Royal Australian Air Force. Experience overseas has disproved that view. Any one who has done any gliding knows that it is definitely good basic training for a pilot. The air forces of Poland and Germany, and tardily the Royal Air Force became very interested in gliding. Gliders have played a major part in the invasion operations in Europe during the last three months, and have made possible many of the spectacular successes achieved by the United Nations. Gliders are capable of landing where aircraft cannot land, and they have been used for the carriage of not only large numbers of troops, but also “ jeeps “ and light tanks. Gliders have been towed across the Atlantic. Undoubtedly, they will play a prominent partin post-war civil aviation. The local glider clubs, of course, cannot afford nor do they use that type of machine, but they are making good progress with the sail planes. Pilots achieve remarkable skill in handling these gliders, and by using rising air currents can react considerable altitudes, and remain airborne for some time. Undoubtedly, these gliders are very useful in training future .pilots. To-day the Air Force numbers in its ranks many glider enthusiasts. However, the glider clubs have never received the encouragement to which their value from a national point of view entitles them. Members of these clubs have been thrown on their own resources. They have made their own equipment in many instances. In view of the tapering off of the intake of air crews, steps might be taken to interest the young lads in the Air Training Corps in gliding. Air training in Great Britain now includes glider training for their Air Training Corps, and it is time that Australia did likewise. All of us know that these lads in the Air Training Corps are unusually enthusiastic. They have proved to be a credit not only to themselves, but also to their instructors. At the moment, however, the majority of them doubt whether they will ever experience actual flying. I urge the Minister to increase the grant to glider clubs. He should give this subject the consideration it deserves. These clubs definitely have possibilities in the postwar period and should be assisted.

Mr ABBOTT:
New England

– I support the recommendations made by the honorable member for Balaclava (Mr. White). Looking through the items under the heading of civil aviation, in respect of which the proposed vote totals £391,000, it is remarkable to find that not one item reflects any interest on the part of the Government in the development of civil aviation from the point cf view of the masses. The trend of government policy is towards the development and utilization of giant air-liners. No provision is being made for the development of small aircraft for individual use over long distances. This is to be regretted. We should develop small planes, such as the Piper Cub, and the helicopter, with a view to making these available at a reasonable price. Writers in many American magazines emphasize the necessity to manufacture small aeroplanes for the individual citizen at a selling price not in excess of £450. I recall that when I raised this subject last year the Minister for Air (Mr. Drakeford) seemed to be very amused. I urge him to take a more realistic view on this subject having regard to future possibilities. The Government should consider ways and means of making available small aeroplanes to individuals who, while not very well off, can afford to purchase medium-priced motor cars. Such aeroplanes would prove a boon to residents in isolated inland centres, enabling them to fly to the ocean beaches during the summer months. I again urge the Government to give every encouragement to the manufacture of small aeroplanes at a price which will place them within the reach of’ the’ average citizen.

Mr DRAKEFORD:
MaribyrnongMinister for Air and Minister for Civil Aviation · ALP

– I respect the advice offered on this subject, by the honorable member for Balaclava (Mr. White), who speaks from wide experience in this field. The sum appropriated last year for “ aero clubs and glider clubs “ was £1,500, of which £1,228 was expended. Those clubs have done excellent work. I have taken several opportunities to visit the Essendon Aero Club. Such clubs have been the training ground of many airmen whose names are famous in the Royal Australian Air Force to-day. Before the war, those bodies did not receive from previous governments the encouragement which they deserved.

Mr White:

– I founded Australian aero clubs, and I know that they were enabled to carry on only because of the assistance they received from past governments. I said that no assistance is being given to the glider clubs.

Mr DRAKEFORD:

– Both the aero clubs and the glider clubs deserve assistance, but I am not one who Would ignore the advice of experts in a science like aviation. Therefore, while I am not able to say that the Government will expend money on producing gliders, the representations made by honorable members opposite will receive every consideration. As the war needs are paramount, we are not able to do all the things which honorable members often have suggested. The amount, provided in this item is not, very large. However, very few aeroplanes are available for these clubs to-day. The position should improve in the near future, when, perhaps, more airmen will be returning to those clubs.

Mr.White. - Is any payment being made to the glider clubs?

Civil aviation offers a means of absorbing a proportion of the trained aircrews and technical ground staffs serving with such distinction with the Royal Australian Air Force in all parts of the world. The stress of war has in this way been responsible for another vital contribution to the future of civil aviation - a large pool of highly competent fliers and technicians. Many of these young men are desirous of making a career in aviation after the war, and it is incumbent on any administration to make sure that as many of them as possible can be usefully employed in commercial flying. This can best be done by fostering the civil aviation field.

It must be emphasized at this stage, however, that Australian undertakings in the training of airmen under the Empire Air Training Scheme were very heavy judged by all standards. Despite the dangers which faced the Commonwealth in the South-West Pacific Area, these undertakings have been honoured to the letter: As a result, many thousands of men have been trained. Only a small fraction of this very powerful force can be assimilated into civil aviation at its present stage of growth. I emphasize that statement. This fact alone justifies the purposeful steps which the Government is taking to develop nonmilitary flying.

I have from time to time emphasized that whatever progress be made in other directions, the expansion of civil aviation is dependent on the supply of suitable aircraft. In this we are not alone. It is a problem that faces all countries and one that is not likely to be solved satisfactorily until there is some substantial lessening in the urgentdemand for great numbers of military aircraft.

No new aircraft for civil needs have been received in Australia since the outbreak of war - I emphasize that statement also - but the best possible use has been made of those available.

It is pleasing to announce that the position will be improved in the near future by placing additional Douglas aircraft into commission on the main routes. These aircraft which have been acquired from the United States of America, will permit a considerable expansion of the air transport services. In these days of restricted land and sea transport this will be a valuable contribution to the communication facilities of the country.

At an earlier stage the question was raised as to whether or not we ought to have planes for members to travel from the various capital cities to Canberra. I should like to see such a service provided because honorable members are entitled to have such facilities placed at their disposal, but, whilst it can be considered, it cannot be done at the present juncture, and honorable members should recognize that, with the shortage of civil aeroplanes which everybody is experiencing, we are not able to provide them as quickly as I at all events would like.

The growth of civil aviation- in the Commonwealth will necessitate the development and maintenance of larger and better airports. In this way fast aircraft of large proportions can be accommodated safely at more centres, passengers will travel more comfortably and freight will be handled more expeditiously.

In particular, spacious well-equipped air-ports will be necessary for transoceanic services. Modem aid for the safety of the travelling ‘public and flying personnel will be installed. Equipment of the airfields with the latest navigational devices is of first-rate importance. That has been provided for to some extent in the Estimates. Australia has a magnificent record for safety in commercial flying, but it is not intended to rest on our laurels. Every step likely to reduce still further the hazards of flight will be taken. In this, Australia is a remarkably fortunate country in possessing a land1 and climate ideally suited for aviation. This, combined with a natural aptitude of the Australian people for flying and keen appreciation of the value and pleasures of speedy travel in the air, justify intense effort being devoted to developing all aspects of civil aviation.

To cope with increased traffic, the Government is establishing control towers fitted with latest types of radio equipment at key centres where traffic density justifies such installations. The Government has already acquired the most modern ground station and aircraft radio equipment from the United States of America.

Mr White:

– Why this lengthy statement ?

Mr DRAKEFORD:

– I am making it because the honorable member has frequently raised the subject and has asked for information. I know that this is hardly an appropriate time to make a lengthy speech, but some things ought to be commented on when the Estimates are before the committee.

Mr Holt:

– Why not do it at a reasonable hour? We are prepared to come back for another week or two.

Mr DRAKEFORD:

– I do not want this period of the session to finish without some statement being made. It has been asked for and I am making it. If we have to sit very late, that has been very largely contributed to by the number of very able speeches which the honorable member has made on behalf of his constituents during recent sittings. However, since honorable members have asked for this lengthy statement they are going to get it.

Additional aeradio stations are being established, and the equipment at many existing stations is being modernized by the provision of the latest aids to navigation. The Government is also equipping the major Australian air routes with modern airport lighting equipment so that flying operations can be continued day and night with the maximum degree of safety. It is apparent from this brief review - and I am not covering all the field by any means - that the further development of civil aviation cannot be deferred until the post-war period. When Mr. McVey, the recently appointed Director-General pf Civil Aviation, was abroad recently he studied closely the latest developments in organization and operation. Important conferences have been held both in Great Britain and the United ‘ States of America. It is vital that Australia should keep abreast of the times in civil aviation developments and thought, not only to maintain and improve internal lines, but also to take her rightful place in negotiations for air routes and bases at the appropriate time. As a further step to ensure capable administration and capacity to cope with increased obligations, the Government is taking steps now to expand the existing departmental organization. I hope that honorable members who have been asking for some statement to be made will realize that it is necessary to give some idea of what the department is doing when the money being spent on civil aviation is before the committee for examination. I thank honorable members for being very tolerant in their criticisms. Only two have been levelled, and they were no doubt intended to be helpful. As Minister controlling the department, I appreciate them. 1 trust that what I have been able to tell the committee will indicate that the Government is determined to push on with the most modern developments of air transport in order to give to Australia the very best service available.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Department or Trade and Customs.

Proposed vote, £700,000.

Mr RYAN:
Flinders

.I wish to bring before the committee a case which is typical of a large number of others in the country. It is a matter of preferential treatment rather, than of preference to soldiers, and is one upon which I believe that the Government should take some action. It concerns a man who served in the war of 1914-18 in Egypt and France, returned to this country, was married, and joined up again in the present war and served in Australia, and then spent nearly a year in New Guinea. He has a family of seven children. When he returned and before he was discharged he bought a small cafe at Rosebud, in Victoria, into which he put most of his savings, in providing fittings and stock. He then applied to the Rationing Commission for ration coupons in order that he could provide meals for his customers. His request was refused by the Rationing Commission on the ground that it had decided to place the strictest limitations on the establishment of new catering businesses, because an increase of the number of places where rationed foodstuffs could be consumed coupon-free would result in a substantial drain on stocks of rationed food and virtually defeat the object of rationing. T think that statement is entirely illogical, and departs from the facts of the case. Apart from the fact that refusals of this kind are against the interests of the very individuals who everybody in ‘ the community believes should be helped, the reasons given for the refusal in this case were not in accordance with the facts. If the new cafe were opened, it would not mean that the number of persons who dine in restaurants in that locality would be increased. Any trade which was acquired by the new enterprise naturally would be lost to the other cafes. Later, this man applied for a small quota of tobacco for sale in his shop, but again his application was refused. Whilst I can understand that there might be some slight ground for the refusal in this case, because tobacco is not rationed and the allocation of h quota to a new establishment would naturally result in increased consumption, that, excuse does not, apply in the case of rationed goods. I ask the Minister representing the Minister for Trade and Customs to take up this matter with the Rationing Commission or w’ith the Minister for Trade and Customs (Senator Keane) to see whether a more liberal attitude can be adopted. There should not be any great difficulty in granting this concession.

Another matter with which I wish to deal has an indirect relation to the subject, which I have already mentioned. L have said that the man applied for a tobacco quota, but was unable to obtain it, but as all honorable members are aware, tobacco in all forms is in short supply. I understand however that there is ample tobacco in this country, and that all that is required to make it available to the general public is a small number of factory operatives, mainly women.

Mr Beasley:

– I think that the trouble in this instance is caused more by absenteeism.

Mr RYAN:

– I understood the Minister to say quite recently that 150 women were required for this industry. I have no doubt that a comb-out of certain undertakings would produce not only 150 women, but if necessary, 1,500, some of whom no doubt would be qualified to undertake work in tobacco factories. In view of the acute shortage of tobacco I ask that full consideration be given to this matter.

Mr SHEEHAN:
Cook

.I draw attention to the vicious system which seems to have been established in the Department of Trade and Customs in relation to the imposition of penalties upon individuals who infringe certain regulations. I have had brought to my notice the case of a man who owns a hotel in my electorate. He was detected supplying liquor to a Buffalo Lodge in a manner contrary to regulations. The customs authorities did not bring him before a court and charge him in the usual manner with a blackmarketing offence, but arbitrarily reduced his liquor quota, thus inflicting a perpetual punishment, not only upon the offender, but also upon his customers in the area in which the hotel is situated. I may say that the hotel is in an industrial area and that there is not another hotel for two miles.

Mr Beasley:

– Can the honorable member say whether the man had infringed the regulations previously?

Mr SHEEHAN:

– I understand that he had not. In any case he should have been given a fair trial in a properly constituted court, so that if he were found guilty of the alleged offence his punishment would not ‘be of such an enduring nature, and would not penalize the people of the locality in which the hotel is situated. Departmental officials have no right to try men for offences such as this, when we have special courts for this purpose.

I have had brought to my notice, also, the case of a wholesaler in Sydney who has suffered in a similar way. He has been in the wholesale business for 50 years, but because of a breach of the regulations relating to the rationing of liquor, his wholesaler’s licence has been withdrawn by the Minister for Trade and Customs, and a retailer’s licence providing for a very restricted quota has been substituted’. This man also should be given an opportunity to defend himself in court. Instead, however, he has been deprived of a substantial portion of his business, and of some of his rights as a citizen. I have made appeals to the Minister in these oases during the last six months, but he has been adamant in his refusal to reconsider the penalties that, have been imposed.

Mr HOLT:
Fawkner

.I draw the attention of the Minister representing the Minister for Trade and Customs to what I believe to be unquestionably the most inequitable regulations » operating in the Commonwealth to-day. I. refer to the Landlord and Tenant Regulations, which are administered by the Department of Trade and Customs. These regulations were brought into being under the National Security Act, and their birth was an unhappy one, because they were sired by a gentleman whose class consciousness and warped approach to the matter of proprietorship is notorious. I refer to the present Minister for Transport (Mr. Ward). Ever since the introduction of these regulations there has been cause for dissatisfaction and cases of severe hardship ha’ve been frequent. The position has reached such a stage in fact, that organizations have been formed to protect the rights of property owners. Whilst the underlying motive of the Government in introducing these regulations, namely, the protection of the interests of long-term tenants who have given satisfaction in their tenancy in the past, and of wives and dependants of servicemen, is most laudable, the manner in which the regulations have been administered has created hosts of hardships, far beyond the fair and proper scope of the objectives which it was sought to cover. The result, as I have said, has been that organizations to protect the interests of property owners have been brought into existence. In many cases these owners are in receipt of less income than the tenants who are residing in their properties. I wish to bring directly to the notice of the Minister the submissions made by the Property Owners Association of Victoria to the Minister for Trade and Customs, on the 21st February. A number of appropriate amendments were suggested to the Minister. Under the heading of “ Fair Bents “ they included, first, “ The unfairly low net return to the owner of a tenanted house, of only 5 per cent, of an out-of-date valuation “. That is 5 per cent, net on a proposition involving definite business risks, and the valuation bears no relation to the changes in the value of the currency which have taken place since the regulations came into force. The association sought also “ An improved method of estimating repairs “, and claimed that a further allowance was necessary for bad debts. The fourth point made by the association was that a reduced or increased rent should be effective from the date of determination. The lastmentioned item is worthy of consideration, because as the regulations stood when these representations were made, and I believe as they stand now, the position is this: if a tenant applies successfully for a reduced rent, the reduction takes effect from the date of the original application, but, if an owner makes application for an increased rent and is successful, the increase does not commence until fourteen days after the determination is made. In regard to evictions it was recommended that there should be a reduction of the period of arrears and length of notice, correction of the abuses of sub-letting, and correction of abuses in regard to the interpretation of “suitable alternative accommodation “. The provision of this “ suitable alternative accommodation “ frequently has been a matter of extreme difficulty because of the interpretation placed upon the word “suitable”. Then it was requested that the owner of only one home should not he prevented from obtaining repossession. Some extraordinary cases have developed in this regard - I know of at least one personally, and I have no doubt that there are many others - of returned soldiers who served in the Middle East and New Guinea, not being able to regain their own homes. In the case which I have particularly in mind the magistrate said that hardship existed to an equal degree on both sides, but that he would give the benefit of doubt to the tenant, and the returned soldier was not able to regain possession. A woman of 80 lived in one house all her married life. Prostrated by her husband’s death she went into a nursing home. The person to whom she let the house, sub-let it to the very young wife of a serviceman who came from Queensland to Victoria to work in a munitions factory. She took possession with another young woman and would not allow the owner to occupy even a part of it. This old woman - and there must be many like her - has not only been deprived of her home but has had to rent other premises. The effect of that is this: the rent she receives is treated as income and is taxed, notwithstanding that she has to pay out almost double the board in other premises. She is being penalized by theCommissioner of Taxation for being compelled to sacrifice her home.

The fifth case concerns the definition of “soldier’s dependant”. Many people have received the protection which should rightly be afforded to soldiers merely because they wear the uniform of a soldier, although they live, for all practical purposes, as civilians in the capital cities. The Minister for Trade and Customs (Senator Keane) examined these cases on the 21st February and on the 19th June, almost four months afterwards, he wrote an acknowledgment saying that six of the requests seemed reasonable. The Minister wrote as follows : -

These representations have now been thoroughly examined and whilst many of the requests are in direct conflict with Government policy on the housing question there are others which I consider may be desirable and which are being further examined with a view to incorporation in the Regulations. A list of these matters appears hereunder. Some ofthem, you will observe, are not exactly in the terms of the Association’s full request but represent a movement in the direction desired.

Limitation of the prohibition of distress for rent to dwelling house premises only.

That means that whilst the Minister was not prepared to allow owners to distrain in respect of back rent for dwelling houses, he was prepared to raise the prohibition in respect of business houses. The letter continued -

Increases and reductions in rent effected by Fair Rents Boards determinations shall commence from a similar date.
Reduction of maximum period of notice to quit to fourteen days when notice relies on grounds that the tenant has been guilty of misconduct, he has failed to take care of premises, or the premises have been used for illegal purposes.
4 ) The substitution of “ reasonable “ in lieu of “ suitable” in regulation 15.

That is the regulation relating to the provision of suitable accommodation. He intended to alter that to “reasonable accommodation “.

The amendment of regulation 15 by inserting “has been available since the notice to quit was given “ in lieu of “ is immediately available “.
The exemption from the ejectment provisions of premises which have been bona fide let under the terms of a lease which expressly states that it isfor a short period only. (Some drafting difficulties are anticipated but the principle is favoured ) .

With regard to the remaining proposals I find that in many respects they are in conflict with Government policy.

One of the requests was that where a person was in arrears of rent the owner should be allowed to collect that rent by distraining in respect of the furniture. Another recommendation was that if an owner wanted to get back into his own home he should be permitted to do so at the expiration of six months’ notice, which would seem to be a fair enough period of notice to enable a tenant to find other accommodation. Neither request was granted.

The aspect which I particularly desire to bring to the notice of the committee is that the Minister for Trade and Customs saw- these people on the 21st February, and it took him four months to decide which of the requests were reasonable. Promising that fresh regulations would be made when he wrote that letter about three months ago, but his promises remain unfulfilled. The Minister is not so slow to act in matters accompanied by sensational publicity. When a tenant was evicted in circumstances which aroused public sympathy in Melbourne recently an amendment of the regulations to cover such cases was quickly drafted. Therefore, it cannot be because of any lack of capacity to amend regulations that this delay is taking place. I impress upon the Minister for Supply and Shipping (Mr. Beasley), whose realistic approach to these matters is in marked contrast to that of his remote colleague in the Senate, that, while the regulations remain in their present form, inequities remain. The remedies promised by the Minister for Trade and Customs should be no longer delayed.

I understand that the Property Owners Association of Victoria requested that when the committee set up by the Government to review the war-time regulations was dealing with the Landlord and Tenant Regulations, a representative of the association be permitted to give it the benefit of expert advice. I gathered from the reply of the Attorney-General (Dr. Evatt) that the matter was under consideration. I hope that the practical suggestion mentioned will be agreed to.

Mr ABBOTT:
New England

– I was most interested in what the honorable member for Cook (Mr. Sheehan) said about the action of the Minister for Trade and Customs (Senator Keane) in convicting, without trial by jury in court, a certain hotelkeeper in his electorate. It was interesting also to learn that for six months the honorable gentleman has been trying to get justice for his constituents. What the honorable member said and what I shall say confirm that the Minister is indeed an autocrat and that neither he nor some of his highest officers have any real respect for the laws of this country. The Treasurer (Mr. Chifley) has introduced the Income Tax Assessment Bill No. 2 of 1944, which amends section 16 of the principal act to increase the number of persons who may have access to the files of the Taxation Department. One of the persons now entitled to access is the Prices Commissioner. Subsection 2 of section 16 of the principal act reads -

Subject to this section, an officer shall noi either directly or indirectly, except in the performance of any duty as an officer, and either while he is, or after he ceases to be an officer, make a record of, or divulge or communicate to any person any such information so acquired by him.

Sub-section 4 sets out those entitled to obtain information from the Taxation Department’s files. Amongst them is the Commonwealth Prices Commissioner. Now it is proposed that the Secretary, Department of Defence, the Secretary, Department of the Navy, the Secretary, Department of the Army, and the Secretary, Department of Air, shall also have access to those files - tor the purpose of the administration of any law of the Commonwealth relating tn payments in respect of dependants of members of the Defence Force.

On the 7th May, 1943, Prices Circular No. 1607 : Price Stabilization, was issued to the Deputy Prices Commissioners in the States by the secretary of the Prices Branch of the Department of Trade and Customs, Mr. C. E. Williamson. I have carefully perused that document and the memorandum attached to ascertain whether it anywhere bears the imprint “ secret “. It does not. I even held the paper up to the light to see whether the word was incorporated in the watermark. I submit, therefore, that it is a public document. It is also a most interesting document. It sets out that -

The Price Stabilization Committee, at a meeting on Thursday, 29th April, endorsed the principles of the memorandum.

The first matter dealt with in the memorandum is the treatment of applications for increased prices or subsidies. One of the most interesting items is -

The Deputy Prices Commissioners have been instructed to write to all applicants in terms of the following letter: -

So, if honorable members write to the Prices Commissioner and all receive the same reply, they will realize that they are being treated in the mass-production style. It summarizes the adjustments to be made in the light of known costs, and then, on page 3, it deals with the Department of War Organization of Industry in this way -

A close liaison should be established between Uie Prices Branch and the Department of War Organization of Industry through the maintenance by the Department of War Organization nl Industry of an officer with each Deputy Prices Commissioner and one or more officers in the central office of the Prices Branch at Canberra.

The idea is to link the two organizations as closely as possible. The document then proceeds -

The information available in the Prices Branch will normally cover most of the material required by the Department of War Organization of Industry to make a rough judgment as to whether economies are possible through rationalization; if not, also through increased efficiency. It would be undesirable lo duplicate cost inquiries, and it would be relatively easy to ensure in the prices investigation that any information required by War Organization of Industry and not available at present could be collected by the prices officers when reviewing the industries’ applications for relief. No doubt much further information will be obtained by War Organization of Industry in its discussion with the industries as to rationalization and efficiency. The advantage of this procedure as regards information and the establishment of liaison officers would be that the Department of War Organization of Industry could be kept informed from the very beginning as to the nature of the applications from any industry for a subsidy.

Apart from the general secrecy provisions of the Prices Regulations, the Prices Commissioner now has access to the taxation returns of companies and individuals.

The Commissioner of Taxation was not so enamoured of this decision of the Government to give access to the secret and confidential files of taxpayers because, in evidence before the committee which recently inquired into censorship, and which met an untimely and sudden death, he said that he was not prepared to allow the officers of the Prices Commission to investigate the files, as there were so many temporary officers in that department that he would not trust them to do it. Consequently, his own officers were made available to get information from the files. The document goes on -

Arrangements have also been made for the information in the Prices Branch to be supplied upon request to the Taxation Commissioner.

That means that any secret information which the Prices Commission has can be made available to the Commissioner of Taxation. I do not know any authority in law for that to be done. There are happenings that are not disclosed to the public. Sometimes the blessed word “security” is used, and at other timesthings are done in the dark. As the honorable member for Cook has said, the Minister for Trade and ‘Customs and hisofficers can do almost anything. Then the Prices Commissioner goes on to say - lt is most important that the secrecy provisions of the Prices Regulations should lieobserved as strictly as are the secrecy provisions of the Taxation Act. AH office of the Department of War Organization of Industry and the Treasury who may have access directly or indirectly to the information, collected under oath of secrecy from traders should themselves take the oath of secrecy asrequired by the Prices Regulations.

He knows that officers of the Department of War Organization of Industry cannot have access to the taxation files, so he inserts the words “ directly or indirectly A high standard is set by members of the Commonwealth Public Service generally, but in the appointment of some of the temporary officers, it is difficult to get men of the type required. What I have said discloses an unhappy position of affairs. The circular indicates that information derived from the secret files of the taxpayers is being made available indirectly to officers of the Department, of War Organization of Industry, and that, without any legal authority, secret information obtained by the Prices Commissioner is being made available to the taxation officials. I understood that it was to be one-way traffic from the Taxation Department to the Prices Commissioner, but by some secret arrangement a two-way traffic has been” established. The sooner the law of the country is obeyed, and the healthy light of the sun is allowed to penetrate the murky passages of departmental activities, the better it will be. The remarks of the honorable member for Cook about the punishment of a man without a trial discloses an unhappy and undesirable state of affairs.

I now turn to the consideration of price-fixing regulations. Earlier in this sitting I asked, by way of interjection. “Why did not the Prices Commissioner fix the price of funerals ? “, and the question was received with hilarity. One of the greatest disgraces in this country -is the price which people have to pay for the burial of their relatives. This bears heavily on the poorer section of the community. Only within the last two or three weeks I was talking to a man who advances small, loans, and he told me that a very large percentage of the applications for loans como from people who are trying to pay for funerals of relatives which have taken place months previously. I am told that he has paid off debts in New South Wales in respect of which interest had been charged at the rate of 1,000 per cent.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member has exhausted his time, but if no other honorable member wishes to speak he may take his second period now.

Mr ABBOTT:

– This matter should be investigated,, because I understand that the New South Wales Moneylenders’ Act does not fix a specific rate of interest, but merely provides that the rate must not be an unconscionable one. The people affected cannot afford to take cases to the courts and prove that the rates charged are unconscionable.

I again draw attention to the way in which the arrogant and autocratic Minister for Trade and Customs has dealt -with ex-servicemen who have returned from the war. I bring to the notice of the committee the case of Mr. C. P. Grant, who was in business as a hairdresser in the town of Manilla, in New South Wales, from 1929 to 1941. In February, 1942, he joined the military forces. In fighting for his country, he ruined his prospects of being able to succeed in business in Australia after the war. He served for about 25 months in the infantry, and in March, 1944, was discharged as medically unfit. He reopened his hairdressing business in Manilla, and on the 5th May applied to the Minister for Trade and Customs for a tobacco quota. On the 10th May the Minister replied, stating that he would give the matter the fullest consideration. On the 22nd June, Mr. Piggott, chairman of the Tobacco Distribution Committee, inquired for certain particulars as to the business. Nothing more has been done to assist Mr. Grant to get a quota. When I took up the case on his behalf I telephoned Mr. Piggott on the 11th July last, and ho informed me that, under a ministerial ruling made by the Minister, no quota for selling tobacco could be given to Mr. Grant, despite the fact that another quota in the town had been surrendered. What Reveille said in its issue of the 1st August last is true, when it referred to the plan of the Federation of Retail Grocers Associations of Australia, which wished to make the grocery trade a close preserve for those already in it, and cut out returned ex-servicemen. That journal stated -

This is just a straw in the wind - a wind that is beginning to blow hard and cold against the ex-servicemen. What the grocers are saying to-day, others will be saying tomorrow; that is, unless the great mass of decent Australians push the Federation of Australian Grocers back so hard into its place that it will not have the courage or the energy to emerge again.

– It is proposed to appropriate the sum of £11,100 in respect of the Tariff Board. If the Government intends to use the Tariff Board merely as a scapegoat for some of its own decisions, the sooner the board is abolished the better. During the depression, those interested in the sugar industry agreed to a reduction of price. That price has been in operation since that time, and, recently, the industry appealed for an increase. The Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin) indicated that he would prefer to give a bonus to the industry. Later, the Government referred the matter for investigation to the Tariff Board. Why, I cannot understand. The Government does not ask the board to investigate claims by the coalminers for increased payments. I am driven to the conclusion that the claim by the sugar industry was referred to that body simply to help the Government save its face. As was to be expected, the Tariff Board recommended that the claim be not granted. I protest against the action of the Government in using the Tariff Board as a sort of judicial tribunal to turn down requests which the Government wants to dodge. The sugar industry is deserving of some recognition of its difficulties. Its claim should have been referred for investigation to a tribunal of which the members individually carry far greater responsibility than members of the Tariff Board. T sincerely hope that the Government does not intend to refer other claims by primary industries in this way to that body.

Mr BEASLEY:
Minister for Supply and Shipping · West Sydney · ALP

– Honorable members have raised several important matters. Their complaints with respect to the application of some regulations call for careful investigation. Very often regulations are applied in a manner which would probably not meet with the approval of Ministers. I have had that experience in my department. Criticism of this kind serves a very useful purpose in facilitating remedial action.

The points raised by the honorable member for Flinders (Mr. Ryan) and the honorable member for Balaclava (Mr. White) with respect to licences for the sale of butter require, I believe, consideration by not only the Minister for Trade and Customs (Senator Keane), but also the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture (Mr. Scully). As butter is rationed, I am at a loss to understand the emphasis given to the part played by distributing agents in such cases. The cane raised ‘by the honorable .member for Flinders was that of an ex-serviceman, :ind I can understand his feelings in the matter. As a country with a very small population we are now feeling the full effect of the demands made by the war; and it is unfortunate that these restrictions are becoming increasingly irksome. I long for the happy day when we shall bo able to sweep all of them aside.

Mr Ryan:

– There is no shortage of sugar or tea.

Mr BEASLEY:

– Labour and transport problems have an important bearing on the distribution of sugar. I have been obliged to restrict the use of sugar for the production of power alcohol. At this moment, the industry is applying for additional man-power, and last week discussions took place on a proposal to release a number of men from the Army to help harvest the sugar crop. I shall give full consideration to the matters raised.

With all due respect to the honorable member for Cook (Mr. Sheehan) I should like to have full particulars of the case he mentioned. Upon investigation, it is often found that persons who incur such penalties have previously been given opportunities to mend their ways.

Mr Sheehan:

– This was a first offence.

Mr BEASLEY:

– I do not dispute that point, but my experience has been that all of the facts are seldom disclosed to honorable members by people who make such complaints, whereas an examination of official files often reveals that they have been warned previously more than once. Last week I had to deal with a similar matter involving the closing of petrol supply stations owing to the infringement of petrol licence regulations on the part of some proprietors. In those cases, I proposed to appoint a committee of review, representatives of both sides, with an independent chairman. Perhaps, cases of the kind mentioned by the honorable member for Cook could be dealt with in that way. I shall make such a recommendation to the Minister for Trade and Customs.

The cases cited by the honorable member for Fawkner (Mr. Holt) with respect to the landlord and tenant regulations instance the fact that very often regulations do not achieve the purpose for which they were framed. I see no reason why the association mentioned by the honorable member should not be given an opportunity to express its views, when these regulations are being revised.

Mr Holt:

– The Minister for Trade and Customs expressed approval of six of the proposed amendments, but no action has yet been taken in that direction.

Mr BEASLEY:

Mr BEASLEY:

– I shall discuss this matter with my colleagues. In broad terms, I think that their feelings regarding general policy on this question are that they feel an obligation towards men who have fought for the country and who, perhaps through disabilities or adverse circumstances, are unable to engage in any heavy occupation. The sooner we can plan to fit them into our economy so that they can be independent and lead the life which they are entitled to lead, the better. That is our duty. That is my policy in such matters, and I have tried to put it into practice in connexion with licences for petrol stations and so on. A case arose recently in Victoria where the applicant wanted to jump the claims of a man who had gone to the war. That cannot be allowed to happen. These cases should be handled in a flexible way. We cannot follow a direct line in all these matters. They often call for some practical application of common sense and sympathy.

The honorable member for Maranoa (Mr. Adermann) raised the matter of tobacco. That is a subject in which my colleague, the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture, is interested. The matter of the combine against the growers interested me a little, because it was the subject of a number of speeches which I tried to make on adjournment motions in earlier years, when in other positions. The Scullin Government in its day did a great job for the tobaccogrowers of Australia; when it brought down protection for them it at least gave them a chance to succeed. However, there have been many ups and downs since those days. The point is important and my colleague the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture feels that it is important to him, too.

The honorable member for Wide Bay (Mr. Corser) raised the question of the Tariff Board in relation to the sugar industry. The board will have to fill a very important role from now on iu connexion with our post-war development. I shall be pleased to discuss with the Minister for Trade and Customs (Senator Keane) the extent to which the board should be engaged in relation to the sugar industry.

Mr ABBOTT:

– Will the Minister look into the question of the excessive cost, of funerals?

Mr BEASLEY:

– One of the lowest kind of commercial attacks that can be made upon a community is to charge people excessive prices when they are grief-stricken. Nine out of ten people, when orders are being placed for funerals, would not think of costs. They are not in the mood to do so and very often it is a family affair in which one member of the family is delegated to arrange all these matters. It is abominable to take advantage of people at such times. I do not treat the subject lightly. As prices have been examined in so many fields in connexion with so many other matters, this might be well worth having a look at. I shall bring it to the notice of the Minister.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Department op Health.

Proposed vote, £202,100.

Mr MORGAN:
Reid

.- The same amount has ‘been provided for the promotion of national fitness in this financial year as was provided last year. Whilst I realize that that- is considerably more than was provided for the purpose by previous governments I should have liked to see much more appropriated for this essential purpose. Neglect of it could prolong the present war and mean the sacrifice of the lives of many young men of this and other Allied Nations. I direct attention to the way the fanatical Nazis were trained under the national fitness schemes promoted by the enemy. We must see that the coming generation in this country is trained but for a much more worthy purpose than that aimed at by the enemy. I raise the matter now because many of the camps set up by the Allied Works Council for Army and other purposes are being dismantled and will probably be sold to private interests. Unless they are set aside for national fitness camps or as hospitals for invalid and old-age pensioners and returned soldiers they will be wasted. The Commonwealth Disposals Commission has announced that priority will be given to government departments in the sale of these war assets, but unless provision has been made by the National Fitness Council to take over whatever it requires it will not have the opportunity of acquiring them. Applications are being made by organizations in my own electorate, but they are finding that they have been disposed of by the Department of the Interior. Millions will be spent in providing free hospital treatment and free medicines, but that is only treating the effects ; we must look to the prevention of disease, and the best way is to promote the national fitness of the generation which is coming on. That policy will pay much bigger dividends than spending millions on hospital treatment. I hope that we shall have an announcement from the Minister as to whether the proposal for free medicine is to be gone on with. We have read in the press that owing to the rejection of the referendum proposals some doubts have been raised as to the constitutionality of the measure, and whether there will be full co-operation by the members of the medical profession. Their help will be necessary to make the scheme effective. Rather than see the proposals in the measure scrapped, I urge the Government to consider utilizing the organization of the existing friendly societies. If they had been called in from the inception and their organization used for the free medicine proposal, it would have been a much cheaper scheme, costing probably only about one-quarter of what the present proposal will cost, and it would also be selfsupporting. The friendly societies are people’s organizations, and the best way to put them on a stronger basis is to subsidize them in regard to risks which they do not take at present. If they were subsidized by the Government they could take risks which otherwise they would not take. A much lower outlay would have been required on the part of the Government, and it would have been a much more effective way of handling the matter. It would have precluded the necessity of people who require free medicines getting a medical certificate first, and having to pay 7s. 6d. or 10s. before they could bo; supplied with medicine for which the chemist charges only a few shillings. T trust that the difficulties in the way of the scheme becoming fully operative will be removed and that the Government will take into serious consideration the using of the friendly societies to make the scheme effective.

Sir FREDERICK STEWART:
Parramatta

– I am sorry that the honorable member for Reid (Mr. Morgan) did not propose the amendment which he has now suggested when the Pharmaceutical Benefits Bill was before the House. Some of us were much inclined to think along the lines on which he is now thinking, and we expressed them when the bill was going through the House. I am also surprised to hear, from him that the result of the referendum proposals had any effect on the Government’s attitude in the matter, because my understanding of the referendum was that the Government was merely asking for power to legislate on public health in co-operation with the States. That is what was being done before the referendum, but apparently the result of the referendum, unsatisfactory to the Government as it was, has had no effect whatever on this or seemingly any other part of its socialist programme. When replying to’ the budget debate, the Treasurer (Mr. Chifley) stated that the British national insurance scheme was on such a scale that it involved a payment by contributors of only 16 per cent, of the total amount required to finance the scheme. Honorable members will recall that I contested that figure at the time, but that the Treasurer adhered to it. I have before me now a document which I am sure the Treasurer will not challenge. It is the report of , Sir William Beveridge dealing with this matter.

– The vote for the National Fitness Council is £72,500 annually. As the honorable member for Fawkner (Mr. Holt) says, it is doing good and sensible work, and covers a great number of activities. But the services have done a great deal of work in that regard too. The physical training school of the Army takes second place to none. Another branch of physical fitness work in Australia which has helped thousands of young Australians and saved many lives, and which does not cost this Government a penny, is the Royal Life Saving Society, of which I am president. I do not feel diffident about submitting a claim that it should be assisted. It is an Empire-wide body with its principal head-quarters in London. It is well founded. Its activities are controlled by volunteers. There is a clerical staff in the head office, Melbourne. The members of the society save many lives every year in every State. They have through the schools, the police force and the services carried out tests and examinations and taught thousands to swim and thereby undoubtedly helped the cultivation of national fitness. They can be seen at surf carnivals, but that is only the display side. The actual work is less public, but it is definitely of great value. It has been carried on by juniors during the war, but returning servicemen will soon supplement them. It would be fitting if the Government gave favorable consideration to the payment of a small grant. Whether it should be made from the vote provided for the National Fitness Council, or whether it should be an extra allocation from Consolidated Revenue, will depend on the generosity of the Government. In Victoria, the society receives an annual grant from the State government of £100. The grant from the Government of New South Wales is larger. But there is a federal council which makes a federal approach. I am sure that all honorable members, regardless of party affiliations, will agree that the society deserves help from this Government.

Mr CHIFLEY:
Treasurer and Minister for Post-war Reconstruction · Macquarie · ALP

– I shall consider the matter raised by the honorable member for Balaclava (Mr. White) . In deference to your ruling, Mr. Chairman, I shall take another opportunity to reply to some of the statements of the honorable member for Parramatta (Sir Frederick Stewart).

Proposed vote agreed to.

Department of Commerce and Agriculture.

Proposed, vote, £358,000.

Mr FADDEN:
Darling DownsLeader of the Australian Country party

– I direct the attention of the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture (Mr. Scully) to the conclusions of the Queensland Royal Commission on Fruit and Vegetables in its report of the 19th May, 1944, which I am sure he must have seen because it should have been brought to his notice long ago. The report stated that evidence showed that the price fixing law was not being enforced and in consequence was not being observed by many agents and retailers. It also stated that inadequate law enforcement was not only a detriment to the public, but also an injustice to the honest trader. On page 18 of its report, the royal commission stated that the control of the marketing of potatoes imposed by the Commonwealth on growers in’ 1942 resulted in a serious loss to some of them through no fault of theirs and gave to a group of agents an excessive profit paid for mostly by growers. It also stated that “by accident or design the Commonwealth avoided legal liability for these losses “. The commission further stated; -

The subsidy system introduced by the Commonwealth in 1943 as part of the scheme for lowering the basic wage, yields to the grower a return satisfactory to him, and to the agents and merchants an excessive profit which was paid for by the taxpayer.

The royal commission also reported that the reasons advanced for the cessation of the contract system in Queensland did not appear to it to be satisfactory, that there appeared to be no reason for a differentiation against Queensland growers in this regard, and that the Commonwealth Government should be pressed to offer contracts in Queensland as in other States. Has the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture any information as to whether the Government has arrived at a conclusion with regard to the recoupment of the growers for the losses they incurred? “What action has the Minister taken, or in contemplation, to give effect to the recommendation of the royal commission that offers of contracts should be restored to the Queensland growers. Justice demands that in the interests of the growers and the retailers and the consumers of Queensland, the recommendations of that commission should he carried out.

Mr ABBOTT:
New England

– I bring to the notice of the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture (Mr. Scully), this committee and, I trust, a wider audience, a further illustration of the treatment which returned soldiers are receiving from this Government, in this case, through the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture and his department. I was interested, when the honorable member for Maranoa (Mr. Adermann) was speaking on a certain subject, to hear the Minister say that there had been no delay, but in view of the interminable delays, instances of which I have with me, I am compelled to parody the poem -

The mills of God grind slowly,

But they grind exceeding small,

But the mills of Minister Scully

Hardly seem to grind at all.

On the 15th June, I wrote a letter to the Minister concerning the case of a returned soldier in the Tamworth district -who had 1,239 days’ service in the Australian Imperial Force, of which 793 days were served in the Middle East and New Guinea. He was discharged from the” Army on the 24th January last, and he has applied for permission to grow wheat as a share-farmer, but I understand that his application is not likely to be favorably considered. Those details were included in a letter which I addressed to the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture on the loth June, and on the 19th June the Minister replied to me as follows : -

I acknowledge your personal representations of 15th June. … As suggested by you, I will personally examine this case, and if it is at all possible to do so, will issue a licence to Mr. C. T. Hill.

On the 12th July, the Minister again wrote to me as follows : -

I acknowledge your personal representations of 7th July with further reference to the case of Mr. C. T. Hill. … As I mentioned to you in my letter of 19th June, inquiries were being made into Mr. Hill’s case, and sympathetic consideration will be given to his application. These inquiries have not yet been completed, but I shall expedite the case, and will as soon as possible inform you of my decision.

That letter was written over two months ago. When Mr. Hill went to the war there were no restrictions on wheat growing in Australia. On his return he desired to grow wheat as a share-farmer on his brother’s property near Tamworth, but he was refused permission by Mr. J. J. Fernon, Chairman of the New South Wales Wheat Industry Stabilization Committee, who stated in a letter dated the 27th June -

With reference to your application for a share-farming licence with Mr. C. T. Hill for 370 acres on your registered farm No. 12354, Shire of Cockburn, I have to advise that you have already been issued with a licence for 320 acres. The full basic acreage of your farm is 370 acres. The State Committee have considered the application for a share-farming licence tout are not prepared to permit the increase of acreage which the granting of these licences would permit. If you wish however, a share-farming licence with your brother C. T. Hill will be issued for the full area of 370 acres. If such a licence should be granted your own licence for 320 acres will be withdrawn.

It is shocking that an ex-serviceman should be penalized for his patriotism in volunteering to fight for his country. I am ashamed of the Minister for refusing to give fair treatment to this man. In a letter dated the 31st May Mr. Fernon wrote -

Under the directions given to all State offices by the Wheat Stabilization Board no licence, which, if granted, would (a) increase quota payment; (b) introduce into the industry a share-farmer who has not previously held a wheat-farmer’s licence, can be issued unless the applicant proves that - (a) the change in the licence is due to legitimate circumstances which cannot be avoided; (b) that a share-farmer who has been previously licensed is not available.

That provision prevents all returned soldiers from being share-farmers. It is wrong that they should be penalized in that way, and I hope that the Minister will deal with the case that I have brought to his notice.

I now draw attention to the position of Staff Sergeant J. M. Youman who was discharged on the 29th January last with a clean sheet from the 12th Australian Armoured Car Regiment. His total period of service was 694 days, including active service in Australia for 497 days. He left the service to undertake potatogrowing on the New England Tableland. He asked to be appointed a potato agent in his own district and he told me that he was quite capable of doing that work in his spare time in the evenings when he was not working on the land. On the 16th February he wrote to Mr. T. L. Caddy, chairman of the local committee, and manager of Messrs. R. Hall and Sons, of Guyra, to ascertain the conditions and arrangements under which i potato agents were working in New England. On the 6th March, or 28 days later, a letter was received by him from Mr. Caddy as distribution manager of the New England Regional Potato Distribution Office. On the 7th March, he again wrote to Mr. Caddy, but did not receive a reply until the 5 th May when Mr. Caddy said, inter alia -

But apart from that fact, my committee feels that an application from you would not be given any consideration, because you are not a bona fide produce merchant or agent.

Prior to his enlistment to fight for Australia, Mr. Youman was employed as the local manager at Guyra of a large produce firm - I think it was the Distributing Producing Society of New South Wales, and the New England Regional Potato Distribution Committee has held that he was not a potato agent. As a matter of fact, these undertakings are being made close preserves for the people now in them, contrary to the interests of exservicemen. On the loth May, Mr. J. W. Squires, Deputy Controller of the Australian Potato Committee, wrote to Mr. Youman as follows: -

I acknowledge receipt of your letter of the 11th instant addressed to Mr. A. C. Foster, Potato Controller, in which you make application for registration as a wholesale potato merchant. Your application will be discussed at the next meeting of the New South Wales Advisory Potato Committtee to be held at an early date, and I will probably inform you of the decision arrived at by this committee. For your information, I might say that a principle has been adopted by the Australian Potato Committtee that only people who were actually trading in potatoes in their own right as wholesalers during 1941 are entitled to registration. *

Under what legal authority does this body adopt principles, without any moral, legal or other sanction, which exclude ex-servicemen from engaging in potatogrowing? All the. talk about preference to returned soldiers is mere cant and humbug. Mr. Youman received a letter on the” 10th July from Mr. J. W. Squires, Deputy Controller, Australian Potato Committee, Department of Commerce, in which the following appeared : -

I am instructed that no departure may bo made from the principle that no new potato wholesalers who were not trading wholesale in potatoes in 1941 may be registered.

That is a shocking state of affairs. I do not know how the Minister can condone action of that kind.

The proposed vote for the commercial intelligence service .abroad of ; the Department of Commerce and Agriculture is £34,200. The sum voted for 1943-44 was £35,800, and only £33,S52 was expended. The trade of this country, as far as the primary export industries are concerned, is not in so healthy a condition as it might be. I told honorable members yesterday that certain markets overseas had contracted largely, and that the purchasing power of Great Britain had diminished through the loss of overseas investments. It 13 essential to build up the Department of Commerce and Agriculture in order that its operations may be as effective as those of the departments of the other great nations. It seems to me that the representatives of the department overseas are being starved for lack of funds. When I was in Bombay, in 1938, I interviewed various merchants, including Australian indent merchants, and I found that the whole of the fruit trade going through that port, which is the gateway of India, was a close preserve of the Union of South Africa. That country had trade representatives in Bombay, and a special shipping service from South African ports. It was pointed out to me that the only service from Australia was the Peninsular and Orient Steam Navigation Company’s service. The vessels came into the Ballard pier at Bombay, and only butter and the Royal mails were allowed to be delivered there. Other goods had to be dumped into native dhows on the side of the ship which was away from the pier. The goods were taken from the dhows to the docks, or to ships in other parts of the port. From twelve to fourteen hours was occupied in getting fruit to the docks. In the monsoonal period the native skippers and crews of the dhows did not protect the goods from the rain. These were often uncovered, with the result that tinned products from Australia were damaged. The tins became wet and rusty. Perhaps six weeks later, these goods would be returned from the country districts to Bombay and rejected because the tins were rusty. The Indian trade and, for that matter, the whole of the Eastern trade, is one of the most selective and difficult trades in the world to work. Merchants informed me that the margin of profit in some cases is so narrow that, very often, the whole profit from a deal is in the nails and packing cases enclosing the goods. Sometimes, the market is extraordinarily difficult to handle. I was told by the representatives of a firm marketing a well known brand of Australian soap that they could sell soap to native wholesalers, go into the market later in the day, and buy the soap from the same people for less than they had sold it.

Mr Chifley:

– Why did not the honorable member stay there?

Mr ABBOTT:

– I came back to become a member of the Royal Commission on Monetary and Banking Systems, and to teach the honorable gentleman some points about this extraordinary method of finance. The goods are sold on 90 days’ credit, and if a buyer wants them cheaper, he must pay cash. The wholesalers, who meet their bills in 90 days, lend the cash at 10 per cent, interest for three months, and thus make their margin of profit on the deal. I ask the Minister to examine Australia’s commercial representation abroad with a view to seeing whether the allocation can be increased.

Mr BARNARD:
Bass

.- I do not often find myself in agreement with the honorable member for New England (Mr. Abbott), but on this occasion I see some merit in his contentions. When I was abroad recently, I discovered in Canada and the United States of America, that our commercial agencies were starved for staff. At Calgary, in Canada, a deputation waited on the Minister for Supply and Shipping (Mr. Beasley) to discuss the marketing of Australian dried fruits and tinned fruits. The deputation stated that there was a ready market in Canada for certain Australian goods. From what I was told, I am satisfied that we suffer badly from the lack of a special shipping line to take our products abroad. In addition, Australia has not an adequate number of trade representatives. The result is that our markets are not catered for and we have no opportunity to display our products to other people. Something is lacking.

I talked to our Trade Commissioner at Toronto and to the assistant traffic manager of the Canadian Pacific Railway, who is most anxious to help Australia. The Trade Commissioner at Toronto had an unpleasant story to tell me about his difficulties, which arose from the unsatisfactory link between Australia and the representation in Canada. Our method of advertising is not effective. Many goods produced in Australia would find a ready sale abroad if we strengthened our trade representation and went after markets. At Winnipeg, I spent some hours with a business man who was interested in dried fruits. In that great city, Australia has not an official representative but an honorary officer. I could cite other instances to show that the case presented by the honorable member for New England deserves serious consideration.

Mr LEMMON:
Forrest

.The honorable member for New England (Mr. Abbott) declared that he was disgusted with the system of issuing licences to wheat-growers, because it bebarred returned soldiers from obtaining a licence. What disgusts me is the manner in which the returned soldier is being put up for auction by the Opposition in this chamber. The statements made by the honorable member were untrue. The Wheat Industry Stabilization Board, which allots the acreage to be sown, was established by a former Minister for Commerce, Sir Earle Page. Indeed, it was practically the only beneficial thing that the Menzies Government did for the wheat-growers. The statement that returned soldiers are debarred from obtaining a licence to grow wheat is untrue. The position is that the licensing of farms goes in conjunction with the Scully wheat scheme. The quota under the scheme is issued, not on the farm or to the farmer, but on the basis of a combination of the two. If a returned soldier was a farmer prior to enlistment and is able to secure a property with the basic acreage and licence, he is entitled to a quota, and will be able to grow wheat.

I appreciate the fact that Australia is a party to the International Wheat Agreement and therefore, must “ cut its coat according to its cloth”. Australia agreed to produce only a certain quantity of wheat. Because of the temporary high prices now offering for wheat, some pressure may be brought to bear to endeavour to induce the Government to remove the restrictions on production. I hope the Government will not bend to that pressure, but will continue the scheme of stabilization. In some instances, a slight relaxation of the restrictions may be permissible. Some farmers have a small licensed acreage, and. are unable to grow their quota. The Minister may see his way clear to allow those farmers to increase their acreage, so as to enable them to produce their quota and thus gain a reasonable standard of living.

After the war, Australia must find markets for its primary products. Two of the most valuable markets available will be for fat lambs and “ baby “ beef. Australia will be able to compete successfully with other countries only on a quality basis, and the Government must decide the best method to obtain that quality. The first step should be to establish inland slaughtering works in country centres. Nothing is more detrimental to the quality of a lamb than long haulage. A financial loss is incurred because of a loss of weight and quality. In most of the Australian States, lambs are not slaughtered for two or three days after they have been taken from the mother, and a triple waste occurs. First, loss of poundage commences a few hours after the lamb is taken from the mother. That is an economic waste of meat which can never be regained. Secondly, loss i3 incurred in damage to the pelt. Thirdly, there is the loss of quality, which begins immediately the lamb is taken from the mother. The system of the lamb begins to consume the juices of the body, and the lamb loses the quality for which exporter and importer look. The “sap” leaves the carcass, and although it may still be first grade, it will lose its attraction to buyers overseas. The only way in which to overcome this most important factor is to establish inland slaughtering works in country centres, so that lambs may be quickly slaughtered after they have been taken from their mother. The establishment of these centres will not only encourage decentralization, but also be most important if we are to place on the overseas market “ baby “ beef and fat lamb of high quality.

Mr HOLT:
Fawkner

.The estimated expenditure for temporary and casual employees of the Food Control Branch this year is £236,840, compared with £120,000 last year. I should like the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture (Mr. Scully) to indicate the reason for this big increase of staff.

Sir FREDERICK STEWART:
matta · Parra

– The sorry story told by the honorable member for New England (Mr. Abbott) was not surprising to those who read a statement made by the Minister for War Organization of Industry (Mr. Dedman) not long ago in which he said that ex-servicemen were not entitled to set up any enterprise in which the sale of rationed goods was involved. If that statement means anything at all, it means that an ex-serviceman who was absent doing a more important job when rationing was introduced, is automatically excluded, so long as rationing continues, from participating in any enterprise of that kind on an equal footing with the man who did not go to the war.

Mr Dedman:

– That is not the meaning of it at all.

Sir FREDERICK STEWART:

– It can have no other meaning.

Mr Dedman:

– The honorable member is trying to auction the ex-serviceman.

Sir FREDERICK STEWART:

– I should rather auction him than slaughter him, as the Government is doing. The honorable member for Forrest (Mr. Lemmon) endeavoured to discount the story told by the honorable member for New England by pointing out that an ex-serviceman could purchase a farm to which a quota was allotted to the vendor during the soldier’s absence at the front. It is useless for the Minister for War Organization of Industry to deny the facts set out by the honorable member for New England. I hope that the Minister will give very careful consideration to them, and discontinue the present inequitable treatment meted out to exservicemen.

Mr SCULLY:
Minister for Commerce and Agriculture · Gwydir · ALP

– The Leader of the Australian Country party (Mr. Fadden) referred to a report of the royal commission appointed by the Queensland Government to inquire into fruit and vegetable production in that State. My department has investigated the complaints of certain potato-growers that the Commonwealth had dealt with them unfairly. The facts are that the potatoes in question were delivered to the services, but were rejected because they were below the requisite standard. Some time ago, the honorable member for Herbert (Mr. Martens) made representations to me with respect to this matter, and, upon further inquiry, I was advised by the Crown Law Office that the Commonwealth could not be held responsible in any way for the loss suffered by those growers. However, I considered that the Commonwealth was under a moral obligation to compensate those growers where compensation was found to be justified, and, therefore, I have arranged with the Queensland Government to appoint an arbitrator to adjudicate on the growers’ claims, none of which involved a large amount. The fact that no contracts have been let in Queensland in respect of the production of vegetables is due entirely to the attitude adopted in this matter by the Queensland Department of Agriculture. That is the only State Agricultural Department which has declined to co-operate with the Commonwealth by writing up contracts; and it bases its refusal to do so on the ground that a more ready and more profitable market is available to vegetable-growers in Queensland, owing to the presence of large numbers of Allied service personnel in that State.

The honorable member for Fawkner (Mr. Holt) referred to the proposed increase in the appropriation in respect of the cost of administering the Foods ControlBranch. That increase is due entirely to the appointment of additional inspectors of foodstuffs.

I agree with the opinion expressed by the honorable member for Bass (Mr. Barnard) and the honorable member for New England (Mr. Abbott) concerning the need for the appointment of additional trade commissioners overseas. I have been considering this matter for some time, and at the earliest opportunity I propose to extend our activities in that direction. However, the lack of overseas trade representation is due entirely to war conditions. All of our export trade is represented by government contracts, whilst private trade has been practically suspended. However, I am aliveto our responsibilities in this matter. In fact, trade representatives are already being appointed in some countries. I admit that the present position is not satisfactory; and I realize that in order to safeguard our interests in overseas markets we must pay special attention to trade representation overseas.

Dealing with applications by returned soldiers for licences to grow wheat, the honorable member for New England cited the case of one man who, he said, had been refused a licence. I shall investigate that case immediately. Some time ago, I amended the wheat industry stabilization regulations to give to the Wheat Industry Stabilization Committees in each State power to issue temporary licences in special cases, and I have issued an instruction that in all cases the applications of returned soldiers for licences must be given the most sympathetic consideration. I have already endorsed numbers of such applications. In no circumstances, shall I tolerate any injustice to an exserviceman in this respect.

Mr Abbott:

– Will the Minister take up the case I mentioned?

Mr SCULLY:

– Yes. Whilst the department deals with hundreds of thousands of applications’ for licences, the honorable member cannot expect me to be familiar with each individual case, and when he is able to cite only one case in support of his allegation that the department is unsympathetic towards returned soldiers, he is simply playing at party politics.

The Potato Advisory Committee, in order to expedite deliveries, ruled that there should be only one wholesale agent representing it in any one district, and that all potatoes produced in a particular area must be consigned to that agent. That instruction has. been- vigorously enforced throughout the Commonwealth. It was issued because, previously, wholesale agents were competing with other agents outside of their own district. T shall investigate the case mentioned by the honorable member.

Mr Holt:

– What is the explanation for the proposed increase of the appropriation in respect of salaries for casual employees in the Pood. Control Branch?

Mr SCULLY:

– I have already stated that the volume of work of that branch has now more than doubled. It is still increasing, because we are making provision to meet the additional demands which will arise when substantial numbers of fresh allied service personnel arrive in Australia in the near future.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Department o.f Social Services.

Proposed vote, £476,000.

Sir FREDERICK STEWART:
Parramatta

– I should like, without undue reiteration, to point out that the prophecy made by members of the Opposition when the National Welfare Trust Fund was instituted a couple of years ago has now been proved to be correct. We contended that the proposed allocation of the sum of £30,000,000 a year, or one quarter of the total income tax revenue,, to be paid to that fund, was merely windowdressing on the part of the Government for party political purposes. It was not designed to provide that volume of social services which it was claimed to give. Events have .proved the correctness of our case because although the Treasurer’s statement shows that £57,000,000 has been allotted in the last two years from taxation only £14,000,000 has been actually expended or will be expended this year out of that total. The people were told when the income tax was being levied upon incomes as low as £2 a week, that the money was being raised for social services, but the facts I have just revealed show that that was not the case.

I ask the Minister representing the Minister for Social Services how it is that although £5,000 was appropriated last year by this Parliament for the education and training of invalid pensioners - it was claimed that it was intended so to administer this section that many invalid pensioners would be made into independent workers in the community - only £133 has actually been expended. I know that it is a difficult task, but I can conceive of no more convenient time for undertaking an effective work of that kind, when the Government is controlling such a large part of industry including so many factories, many of which could be very appropriately used in introducing systems of vocational training. We are asked to appropriate another £5,000. I gladly endorse that, and would be prepared to vote for a much larger sum, but I hope that it will not be a nominal provision, but will be used for the benefit, not only of the invalid pensioners concerned, but also of the general public.

Mr MORGAN:
Reid

.I hope that some attention will be given to the question of making superannuation apply generally throughout private industry, as well as to the Commonwealth Public Service. Many employers have already taken action to put into effect superannuation schemes for the benefit of their employees. Those controlling the textile mills of Stirling Henry Limited, in my electorate, show in their last balance-sheet that of net profits of £25,000 for the last financial year, £10,000, or 40 per cent., has been set aside as an insurance fund for the employees. The company has also made provision for housing facilities, a modern canteen, and an up-to-date factory, thus setting a good example to employers generally. Other employers, however, are not so liberal or careful of the interests of their employees. The introduction of . a general scheme of superannuation would be a much more practical approach to the question of pensions and retiring allowances than the present system. I hope the Government will give consideration to the introduction of a bill to provide that a certain proportion of the profits of private industries shall be set aside for this purpose and that workers who transfer from one industry to another will still get the benefit of the contributions standing .to their credit.

Sir Frederick Stewart:

– Some time ago when it was said that that was being done, some government supporters suggested that it was a spurious means of avoiding taxation.

Mr MORGAN:

– No doubt they had reason to suspect the bona fides of a number of those who make profits out of’ private enterprise. By the means I suggest, older employees would be saved from being thrown on the industrial scrapheap and having to come back on the Govern-r ment for some charity or other form of relief. A universal superannuation scheme would uplift the morale of the workers generally, and create a healthier spirit of co-operation between employers and employees than has existed hitherto. I hope that the Government will take steps to apply such a system throughout the community.

Mr BERNARD CORSER:
Wide Bay

– Anomalies under our pensions legislation are being adjusted from year to year, but there seems to be still a form of injustice which the Government can help to remove. I speak of the case of a daughter who has given, her life to her aged father who is an invalid whom she cannot leave. All the -income that comes to the home is the father’s old-age pension. She has applied twice for a pension but has been refused. For some reason or other he does nOt receive the full pension. A case like that should be adjusted. It is only fair that a woman who gives up her life to her parents while other members of the family live their own lives should be provided for. She is still with her father and he is too old to do anything for himself. I hope that the Minister will have the case looked into.

Mr Chifley:

– Does the honorable member want the same benefit for the daughter as is given to the wife of an old-age pensioner?

Mr BERNARD CORSER:

– Yes. The pensioner only applied for his pension when he was about 70 years of age or over. Although he is an invalid, the pension that he draws is in respect of old age and the daughter is unprovided for. I know of another case, that of an old man of 70 years of age who was interned. He was afterwards released, so naturally he should be given the benefit of the doubt. Previous to his internment he used to earn a little money by working on the farm of his children, but since his return the farm has gone out of service and he has lost his means of living. He claims to have lived in Queensland for 60 odd years, has never left Australia, and has been naturalized for 43 years. He assumes that his application for a pension has been rejected because he was at one period interned. The letter to him dated 14th September this year from the Deputy Commissioner states -

With reference to your recent letter regarding the rejection of your old-age pension claim, I have to inform you that before fl.u old-age pension may be granted to any person- it is necessary, under the law, for the department to be satisfied that the claimant is deserving pf a pension. The evidence with your papers indicates that you cannot be regarded as deserving of a pension and consequently you ure ineligible under the Invalid and Old-age Pensions Act. The matter has been further considered, but in the circumstances payment of a pension cannot be authorized at present.

Seeing that he was released from internment apparently a case could not be made against him. His long life in Australia suggests that he is a good citizen and his internment appears to be the only reason why his claim was rejected. Will the Minister look into that matter too?

Mr Chifley:

– Let me have the particulars.

Mr BERNARD CORSER:

– I shall supply the Minister with the names in both cases.

Mr CHIFLEY:
Treasurer and Minister for Post-war Reconstruction · Macquarie · ALP

– I shall examine the cases which have been brought to my notice. The honorable member for Perth (Mr. Burke) has also brought to my notice two instances with regard to blind persons. I shall arrange to have them examined together with the matters mentioned by the honorable member for Wide Bay.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Department of Supply and Shipping.

Proposed vole, £271,000.

Mr MORGAN:
Reid

.I draw attention to the position that has arisen in regard to intending home builders who have received permission from the Department of War Organization of Industry to build. It appears that there is a lack of co-ordination between that department and the Department of Supply and Shipping. The Government has authorized the construction of a limited number of houses during the present year in each State, mainly through State housing schemes. The maximum in New South Wales is 475 a quarter, but in certain cases of extreme urgency the Department of War Organization of Industry also grants permits mostly in respect of a part of, a house. Taking into consideration the great shortage of building materials, and the higher priority for war purposes, it is only in certain cases such as servicemen and their families, workers in essential industries, or those who are threatened by being dispossessed of their premises that a permit has been granted. In this case, although the Department of War Organization of Industry has granted permission to obtain the actual materials, the builder constructing the premises has to go to the Department of Supply and Shipping to obtain a permit to purchase them. Activities in relation to the war and the State housing schemes have a number 1 priority, whilst individual home builders who desire to build, on their own blocks of land get only a number 2 priority. That means, in effect, that, although permits are actually issued by the Department of War Organization of Industry, the materials cannot be purchased. The whole process is futile, and intending home-builders are put to considerable expense and inconvenience. In addition, they suffer a great disappointment when their hopes are not fulfilled. It would be much better if permits were not granted in the first instance by the Department of War Organization of Industry. I urge the Minister “to investigate this matter to see whether greater co-ordination between the two departments cannot be brought about.

Building materials, particularly timber, are in short supply to-day, and, unless labour is made available immediately to build up stocks of these materials, it will be impossible to undertake an extensive housing programme when the war ends, with the result that many thousands of artisans may be out of employment until the position is rectified. I ask the Minister to take up the matter with War Cabinet. I stress the necessity for the immediate release of men from the fighting services for this work, which in many ways is just as important as food production and otherindustries for which labour is being released from the fighting forces.

Mr.LEMMON (Forrest)[6.48 a.m.]. - When the War Disposals Commission embarks upon the sale of surplus stocks of war equipment, I trust that due regard will be paid to the needs of country areas. My fear is that the goods will be sold in big lots in the cities and that the small purchaser in the country will be entirely neglected. If the equipment for sale before the war ends includes second-hand trucks, I hope that they will be allocated on a priority basis, so that primary producers will have an opportunity to purchase them if they so desire. These trucks should be sold in first-class running order. If repairs are required, that work should be done by the Government before sales are effected. Prospective purchasers will then be able to buy these vehicles with every confidence.

Mr BEASLEY:
Minister for Supply and Shipping · West Sydney · ALP

– The first matter referred to by the honorable member for Reid (Mr. Morgan) does not come within the province of my department.

Timber supplies are controlled by my colleague, the Minister lor Munitions (Mr. Makin). Other building materials, including galvanized-iron, water piping and so on, are also under his control. The difficulty which confronts the Minister for Munitions in regard to the supply of timber is a very real one. Recently, he sent a man to Canada to see if the timber shortage in this country could be alleviated to some degree by the importation of certain sizes of building timber. Unfortunately, the demands for timber in connexion with the invasion of the European Continent have been so great that it has been impossible to meet our requirements overseas.

Mr Morgan:

– There are some mills in this country which could be put into production.

Mr BEASLEY:

– That is quite true, but, of course, there is the problem of meeting the demands of the Australian and Allied forces. It is safe to say that the Minister for Munitions has to face a shortage of many millions of feet of timber. He is giving the matter close attention.

Mr Morgan:

– Does the Minister agree that it would be better if building permits were not issued by the Department of “War Organization of Industry in the circumstances to which I have referred ?

Mr BEASLEY:

– Yes, it is useless to mislead the people. In that regard I appreciate the problem which confronts honorable members in assisting their constituents.

In regard to the matter raised by the honorable member for Forrest (Mr. Lemmon) I point out that we have had quite a number of requests from municipal councils relating to the very point which the honorable member mentioned, namely the necessity to ensure that the disposal of second-hand motor vehicles will be spread over the community in such a manner that country districts will not be neglected. It is proposed to give a prior claim to governmental and semi-governmental instrumentalities. The necessity to dispose of motor vehicles in good running order is an important consideration, but frankly, the Government has not_ at its disposal at present, the organization necessary to’ carry out this work all over the country. We have in mind disposing of these vehicles through the trade and placing the responsibility upon the trade, not only to see that the trucks are in good running order, but also to fulfil the usual service requirements. The problem of “ trade-ins “ is also one that must be taken into consideration. That is another factor which suggests that it might be of advantage to dispose of these vehicles through the trade. I should not like to see honorable members harassed by constituents who have purchased these vehicles and have not been able to obtain service for them. To my mind service is a most important factor.

Mr Lemmon:

– I do not agree with that. In my view, the price that is paid for that service is too high. I have bought many vehicles, and have rarely had occasion, to take them back to the vendors.

Mr BEASLEY:

– My experience has been quite the opposite of that. When purchasing a motor car, I have always made sure that adequate service, was provided.

Mr Lemmon:

– The charge for service represents about 30 per cent, of the purchase price of a car or truck. Very rarely does a purchaser obtain service to that value. In my opinion, it would be far better if the vehicles now in the hands of the Government, were disposed of without the addition of the usual service charge imposed by the trade.

Mr BEASLEY:

– They would have to be sold at the prices fixed, by the Prices Commissioner for second-hand cars. I have no desire to unload upon the farmers or upon any one else, a number of vehicles which cannot be driven more than a few miles. The Government could ensure that some provision is made for the trucks being put in order. Obviously it would not be practicable to bring back the vehicles from the distant parts of the Commonwealth, such as North Queensland or Western Australia, in which they may be made available for sale, to the industrial centres for repairs. In any case, I believe that such a course would be most undesirable because it would deprive local garageowners from a share in this work. I have no desire to fatten the big car servicing depots in the cities by piling all this work upon them.

Mr HARRISON:
Wentworth

– The honorable member for Reid (Mr. Morgan) drew attention to the fact that in many cases after priorities for home-building were issued by the Department of War Organization of Industry, permission to- purchase the materials necessary for this work cannot be obtained from the Department of Supply and Shipping. If I understood the Minister for Supply and Shipping (Mr. Beasley) correctly he said that he would do what he could to give to home-builders an opportunity to purchase the materials that they required. Obviously if that is not done permits issued by the Department of War Organization of Industry, will have no value. There must foe some co-ordination between the departments, otherwise persons who require homes will not get them built.

Mr BEASLEY:
Minister for Supply and Shipping · West Sydney · ALP

– The control of materials - timber, galvanized iron, fittings, piping and so on - is with the Minister for Munitions (Mr. Makin). The honorable member said that, having received permits to build, people could not be certain of being able to proceed with the work. That is unsatisfactory. It causes honorable members great difficulty in explaining the circumstances. I am sure that the Minister for War Organization of Industry (Mr. Dedman) and the Minister for Munitions will examine the matter. They are both in difficulties because of a shortage of supplies for repairs, quite apart from supplies for new buildings. I think, however, that honorable members can safely leave it to them to work out a scheme.

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:
Barker · ALP

– I hope that the Minister for Supply and Shipping (Mr. Beasley) will not precipitate action in regard to the disposal of surplus motor vehicles by the War Disposals Commission. A lot will depend on circumstances, the type of vehicle, the type of buyer, and, in many cases, the type of garage in existence in country areas to which the vehicles will go for repairs. The last thing I want to see is a huge organization such as the repair section of the Allied Works Council at Alice Springs, where it costs more to repair a vehicle than to buy a new one.

Mr Beasley:

– That is the very thing I want to avoid.

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:

– One man gave £40 for a pump and when he had it repaired the cost was £140.

Mr Beasley:

– That sort of thing must be avoided.

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:

– I am glad to hear the honorable gentleman say that.

Mr BARNARD:
Bass

.- I have been asked by people in Tasmania to request that broadcasting stations be once again permitted to notify sailing times of vessels plying between Tasmania and the neighbouring islands, particularly the Furneux Group. This matter is very important to those concerned in it, especially when sales are pending.

Mr BEASLEY:
Minister for Supply and Shipping · West Sydney · ALP

– I appreciate the importance of that matter, which I shall take up with the proper authorities and furnish a reply as to the extent to which the honorable gentleman’s wishes can be met.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Department of External Territories.

Proposed vote, £29,700.

Mr WHITE:
Balaclava

– In a question upon notice I asked the Minister for External Territories (Mr. Ward) whether people who were forced to evacuate the external territories of the Commonwealth would foe compensated. The Minister’s reply was that the matter had not yet been reported on by a subcommittee of Cabinet. Is that still the position? The planters of New Guinea and Papua contributed largely through their development of the territories and their experience to our having been able to hold those territories. I point out to the Minister, who has attacked the indentured labour system, that labour is not always available where it is needed, and that, if the recruiting system be abolished, hardship will result. During the Lyons Administration, the Government provided most of the industries in the territories with a bounty payable for ten years to tide them over their difficulties and in order to ensure development. If labour should not be available, owing to the abolition of the indentured labour system, a further opening up of the territories will fee prevented. It is necessary that the country be opened up so that we shall be better able to hold it than we were early in the war against Japan. The natives are well looked after under the indentured labour system. There is a prescribed dietary scale. Everything humanly possible is done to ensure their welfare. The natives were looked after by one of the best colonial administrators in the world, the late Sir Hubert Murray, who has handed down a tradition of administration that will be followed by his successors.

I am informed that the Pacific Territories Association, despite several attempts, has been unable to make contact with the Minister for External Territories. Members of that organization claim that they should have representation on the Production Control Board because they are the ones who have suffered. They also will have to do the work of reconstruction. Can the Minister tell us whether he will co-operate with them? Will he also ask Cabinet to ensure that they shall receive adequate var. damage compensation? Does the Minister propose to go ahead with the proposal to abolish indentured labour? I think that he expressed that intention before he investigated the matter thoroughly. Abolition of the system would be retrogressive and not progressive as the Minister has implied.

Mr WARD:
Minister for Transport and Minister for External Territories · East Sydney · ALP

– It is the intention of the Government to abandon the indentured labour system in the external territories of the Commonwealth. It has under consideration the whole matter of the allocation of labour in those territories. The endeavour will be not in any way to interfere with the ordinary development of the territories. As a matter of fact, the Government’s plans for development are much more extensive than prevailed in the pre-war years. The Government has already declared through its representative at tho

International Labour Office Conference at Philadelphia that it is its intention to depart from the indentured labour system. We do not think that will cause all the dislocation indicated by the honorable member for Balaclava (Mr. White). We believe that many distasteful features existed in the old method of recruiting labour. Labour control in the territories .should be entirely in the hands of the Government and independent of recruiters. It is our intention to give the natives a much better deal than they ever had. The Pacific Territories Association has had no difficulty in contacting me; but, it is true, not so frequently as they wanted.- They, however, have never had any difficulty in placing their views before me. I would not favour a determination of policy by interested people; but we are anxious to get all the advice we can.

Mr White:

– That is all the planters want.

Mr WARD:

– Some months ago, I received a deputation from the Pacific Territories Association. I have invited its members to express their views on any matter affecting the territories. Those views will be taken into consideration. War-damage insurance is under the control of the Treasury, but a sub-committee of Cabinet has been appointed to deal with the matter of devastated areas. .’V departmental committee will take into account all factors, including war damage. Every endeavour will be made by the Government to rehabilitate the territories in the post-war period. The Government will be glad of advice not only from the association, but also from any one with experience of the territories, and, if advice is submitted to us, it will certainly be taken into consideration.

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:
Barker · ALP

– I am glad that the Minister for the Army (Mr. Forde) is present, because I have learnt since placing on the notice-paper a question to be answered by the Minister for External Territories (Mr. Ward) that the matter comes under the control of the Minister for the Army. It is a question of one or two men returning to one of the islands to look after gold-mines. It appears that a big company with a great deal of capital ha3 had no difficulty in obtaining permission to send two men back to look after its interests. It does not always follow that the best mine is controlled by those who have the most money. The mine owned by the smaller company may be the richer. Honorable gentlemen who know more about mining than I do know that great damage can be done to the assets of a mining company if they are left untended for two or three years. When arrangements are being made to allow people to return to external territories, all applicants should be placed on something like an equal footing instead of, as it appears, a wealthy company is given preference over others.

Mr FORDE:
Minister for the Army · Capricornia · ALP

– The subject raised by the honorable member for Barker (Mr. Archie Cameron), is being investigated by the Army authorities, and I shall let him know the result.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Sitting suspended from 7.15to 9.15 a.m.

Defence and War (1939-44) Services. (Including Department of Defence; Department of the Navy; Department of the Army ; Department of Air ; Department of Munitions; Department of Aircraft Production;Reciprocal Lend-lease to United States Forces; Department of Supply and Shipping; Department of Home Security; Other War Services; Other Administrations - Recoverable Expenditure: Details not disclosed for Security Reasons).

Proposed vote, £139,141,000.

The CHAIRMAN:

– Is it the desire of the committee that the proposed vote, “Defence and War (1939-44) Services”, be taken as a whole?

Mr Curtin:

– I suggest that that course be adopted. The proposed vote covers all the service departments and war activities in general. It would be difficult to deal with these departments separately without a great deal of overlapping in debate. In fact, that procedure could lead to an interminable debate.

Mr.Menzies. - The adoption of the suggestion of the Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin)wouldconfinehonorablemembers to two speeches of fifteen minutes each on votes which, in fact, constitute the major expenditure in the budget. I consider that each department should be considered separately; otherwise, we shall be denied effective parliamentary discussion.

Sir Earle Page:

– I support the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Menzies). The expenditure proposed under the general heading, “ Defence and War (1939-44) Services “ accounts for threequarters of the total expenditure provided for in the budget. It would be unreasonable to confine honorable members to two short speeches in dealing with that enormous total.

Mr Harrison:

– I support the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Menzies), in asking that the departments be taken separately. During last night, I desired to submit a certain motion, and you, Mr. Chairman, told me that I could do so when the Department of the Interior was before the committee. I accepted your ruling. But when we reached the proposed vote for the Department of the Interior, you informed me that my motion would need to be dealt with under the proposed vote for the Department of Information. I again bowed to your ruling. I do not desire, however, to find myself precluded from speaking on the subject owing to a ruling that may oblige us to deal with all service departments and other war expenditure in two short speeches.

Mr Archie Cameron:

– I strongly support the suggestion of the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Menzies) that this proposed vote be dealt with in separate departments. If there is one subject that needs more discussion than another at this stage, it is publicity censorship. As I wish to speak on that and other matters, I shall object to such a limitation as is proposed. If I were to devote fifteen minutes to censorship matters, I should only have fifteen minutes left in which to discuss all other matters relating to the war. 7. have a motion on the noticepaper for the disallowance of a certain order relating to censorship. I hope that I shall not be prevented from discussing it on the ground that the proposed vote, in the Estimates, for publicity censorship has been agreed to.

Mr Curtin:

– I am anxious to meet the wishes of honorable members and I realize the importance of the discussion on the departments listed under this proposed vote. Honorable gentlemen are aware that, for security reasons, the details of the votes for each of the departments enumerated under this heading are not being disclosed. In order that we may deal adequately with the departments listed in this proposed vote, I suggest that the vote be taken in two sections, the first covering all the items listed from the Department of Defence to the Department of Home Security, and the second the remainder of the proposed vote under the heading, “ Other war services “. Each honorable member would then have the opportunity to make four speeches on the total of the proposed vote - though I hope they will not exercise that right.

Ordered -

That the following proposed votes be considered together -

Department of Defence.

Department of the Navy.

Department of the Army.

Department of Air.

Department of Munitions.

Department of Aircraft Production.

Reciprocal Lend-lease to United States Forces.

Department of Supply and Shipping.

Department of Home Security.

Sir EARLE PAGE:
Cowper

– I direcit the attention of the Minister for Supply and Shipping (Mr. Beasley) to the urgent need for an immediate review of transport priorities relative to the timber industry, for an acute difficulty has arisen. Many timber mills in northern New South Wales will have to cease operations unless some relief be given to them. The position is set out clearly in the following letter dated the 18th September, 1944, which I have just received from the general secretary of the Associated CountrySawmillers of New South Wales : -

In response to your request for specific data concerning the chaotic position of the native sawmill ing industry owing to rail restrictions, coupled with the absence of suitable coastal shipping we can at present furnish the following particulars as affecting the coastal area of N.S.W. as a whole.

Taylors Arm (Goldspring Bros.). - 50,000 super feet, No. 1 priority ready for despatch. No trucks available. Mill to be closed unless immediate relief forthcoming.

Stratford and Craven (Turner and Viggers). - Normally load seven trucks weekly. Turner had two trucks during last fortnight, all other trucks used for pit props for coal mining. S.M. advised Turner that pit props must be carried in preference to other freight. Hence no trucks likely for sawn timber. Result: Turner has 30,000 super feet highest priority awaiting transport - must inevitably close unless relief forthcoming.

Report from Wingham. - Eriksson Bros., Machin Bros. and French loading at Wingham, report that the local S.M. advises that no trucks available this week and possibly none next week. This is due to P.M.G. loading five trucks cross arms, also, two trucks ofpit props and one of charcoal were despatched. Next week all available trucks required for pit props, charcoal and aircraft peelers leaving nothing for sawn timber. Normally sawn timber would require 55 trucks during this period.

Arrivals in Sydney. - Allen Taylor and Co. Ltd. report a fall in trucks arriving from various loading stations of 90 trucks during fortnight ended 10th September. For two weeks ended 19th August (Referendum Day) 220 trucks as against 136 trucks for two weeks ended 10th September.

Grafton. - This important loading station reports66 per cent, fall in trucks available. Specific details are no doubt in your possession.

Shipping. - One million and half super. (1.500,000 square feet) stored on South Coast due to lack of coastal shipping. Shipping Control Board could not up until yesterday give any guarantee of early relief either on South or North Coast. Apart from the obvious urgency of supplying such items as -

Piles and wharfing for the U.S. Army in forward battle areas.

Hutment timber for housing troops and foodstuffs.

Railway truck construction and sleepers.

To say nothing of requirements for housing, hospitals, schools, wool sheds and mining, &c.

We would draw- your attention to the request received to-day from the Deputy Controller of Timber to. supply coffin boards of which only two or three weeks’ supply is in sight. This demand cannotbe met without depleting the hard pressed brushwood production at present being devoted to case manufacture for perishable foodstuffs. It is foolhardy to convey perishable foodstuffs to depots unless timber is available for crating and despatch.

It is for the Government to decide which is to take priority.

In view of the foregoing, what possible alternative is there to widespread, unemployment, not only among mills and bush workers, but many related industries depending upon timber supply?

Yours faithfully,

M. England, General Secretary.

In a large measure the difficulties of the industry are due to coal shortages; and I hope that the Government will take prompt action to apply remedies. I am credibly informed that at present frozen mutton is being hauled from Portland, in Victoria, and from the Adelaide, Melbourne and Newcastle districts, to dehydration works in Bourke, New South Wales, and to other distant places in the interior. This has caused a heavy strain on available railway transport, with a consequence that the sawmillers have not been able to obtain rolling stock in order to supply important defence orders. I hope that immediate steps will be taken to correct the difficulties of the situation.

Mr MORGAN:
Reid

.Some members of the forces who have been tried by court martial consider that they have been unfairly treated. In general, the procedure is fair enough. Everything is done by the prosecuting authorities to ensure that the accused person is given a. fair trial, and, in every case a defending officer, generally one with legal training, is placed at his disposal. Nevertheless, it sometimes happens, especially in time of war, that injustice lis done. There is a particular danger of this in those cases in which the only evidence against the accused is circumstantial. We all are familiar with the case of the young lieutenant in the last war who was convicted of having in his possession certain Army goods suspected of having been stolen. He had sent home from Egypt some of his gear, among which were some revolvers ‘belonging to his fellow-officers. He was tried by court martial, convicted and dishonorably discharged. Twenty-seven years later he was able, upon the evidence of his former batman, to prove that the revolvers had been placed among his gear without his authority, and after that long lapse of time the injustice was corrected as far as possible, and the conviction expunged from the records. I know of another case which concerns a soldier of this war, who also served during the last war. He was charged with an offence, convicted, and sentenced to five years’ imprisonment. The evidence against him was circumstantial. It is provided that, in order to justify a conviction on circumstantial evidence, there must be no other reasonable hypothesis, but in this case there were other men in the same section who could have committed the offence. As a matter of fact, since his conviction, another man in the same section has been convicted of two similar offences. I have discussed % the matter with Army officers, and they agree that it is doubtful whether he was guilty and that, in any case, the sentence was excessive. In view of the further evidence that has come to light, I am sure > that he would not be convicted by a civil jury. Nevertheless, he has no redress. Some kind of tribunal should be set up to whom persons convicted by courtmartial would have the right of appeal. Recently, T mentioned the case in which 200 B-class men serving in the Army were ordered to engage in heavy labour on a wharf in a northern port. When they complained they were charged with refusing duty, and were convicted and punished. That is another instance in which I believe the accused persons should have had a right of appeal. We should not forget that men in the Army are fighting for the preservation of democratic ideals, and they themselves should not be denied justice.

I appeal to the Minister for the Army (Mr. Forde) to make provision for the release of men who have served four or five years. Men who enlisted from industrial areas have not the same chance of being released as have those who come from rural areas. Some men who have served for several years are married with even five and six children. They consider that they have done their bit, and that they should either foe released, or transferred to some place near their homes. I understand that in Great Britain and the United States of America preparations are being made for the release of large numbers of servicemen as soon as Germany surrenders.

Many workers engaged in what are regarded as essential industries are anxious to enlist in the forces. Seeing that Japan has still to be reckoned with, they should be given the chance to enlist so as to take the places of men who have already served for some years. The Minister for the Army has stated that plans are in train for the establishment of a permanent army in Australia after the war. There is a feeling among the troops that applications for release are sometimes refused by commanding officers who are anxious to keep up the strength of their units. If it were understood that such officers as wished to make soldiering their career could find places for themselves in the permanent army, or in an international peace force after the war, they might view with greater sympathyapplications for the release of men under their command. The Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin) said a few days ago that some people were uninformed about the Army. We recognize that it is not always possible to release information concerning Army matters, but I believe that there should be a standing committee of Parliament to consider matters concerning the services.

Reference was made during the course of the budget debate by the honorable member for New England (Mr. Abbott) and the honorable member for Watson (Mr. Falstein) to the subject of aircraft production. I do not want to embark upon a controversy, but this is a matter which affects thousands of workers in my electorate. I was glad to learn that the Government desires to keep the aircraft factories in operation after the war. We should now be concentrating upon the construction of aircraft that would be readily convertible to peacetime purposes. Many of the fast highpowered machines now being built would have a very small pay load, because of the large quantity of petrol they require to carry. Australian National Airways, which ought to be the principal customer for any aircraft construction industry, has just placed an order in the United States of America for £2,000,000 worth of Douglas aircraft. It is a serious matter when such a firm is placing its orders outside Australia. The time has come when the control of aircraft production should be vested in a Ministsr, instead of being, as at present, under the control of the Director-General of Aircraft Production. Under National Security (Aircraft Production) Regulations, he is given full authority over such matters. Regulations 8 and 10 are as follows : -

The Director-General of Aircraft Production shall be responsible for and shall have the direction and control of the following matters : -
1. The operationand management of factories, workshops and undertakings concerned in the production of aircraft;
2. The acquisition by the Commonwealth and the establishment of factories and workshops for the purposesof production of aircraft and for repair and maintenance work;
3. The control of the nature and extent of the output or production of any person or authority engaged or capable of being engaged in the production of aircraft;
4. The arrangements, and all action necessary, to secure the supply, manufacture, processing and delivery of aircraft including maintenance, overhaul and repair of aircraft;
5. The securing of supplies of materials, plant, tools and equipment for those purposes; and
6. The employment and training of persons for those purposes.
In the exercise of his functions under these Regulations, the Director-General of Aircraft Production may, on behalf of the Commonwealth and notwithstanding anything contained in any other law -
1. make and vary contracts or agreements;
2. direct any contractor with the Commonwealth or with any authority of the Commonwealth or any person sub-contracting with such a contractor, as to the manner of carrying out the work for which he has contracted or sub-contracted;
3. requisition or compulsorily acquire any property (other than land) which he thinks necessary, including exclusive rights or licences and privileges;
4. acquire by purchase any goods or chattels or things in action (including rights in relation to inventions) ; and
5. sell or otherwise dispose of or turn to account or write off property held in connexion with the manufacture, supply and maintenance of aircraft.

With due respect to the Director-General, Mr. Essington Lewis, who has affiliations with outside industrial organizations, including the Broken Hill Proprietary Company Limited and Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation Limited, I believe that the decision regarding such matters as aircraft manufacturing annexes and types of aircraft should rest with the Minister, or some independent authority. It may be a question of whether this work should be carried out by private enterprise or by some government authority such as the railway departments of the several States.

Mr HARRISON:
Wentworth

– I bring before the committee a matter which, in my opinion, warrants a strict investigation and an explanation by the Minister for Munitions (Mr. Makin). It has reference to two high officers of the Department of Munitions, namely, Mr. C. J. Naughton, who signs himself “F., Director of Machine Tools and Gauges “, and Mr. J. B. McCarthy, who signs himself “ Officer in charge “. On the 12th November, 1943, while holding positions in the employ of the Government, these men registered as a company under the name of Crawford, Stuart and Company, manufacturers’ representatives and merchants, of 43 Hardware-street, Melbourne. The directors of the company are Crawford James Naughton, 185 Darebinstreet, Thornbury, journalist, and John Ristall McCarthy, 101 Guildford-road, Surrey Hills, clerk. The firm holds a great number of agencies, as follows : -

For Victoria. - Donson Products Proprietary Limited, 5 Phil pott-street, Marrickville, Sydney, makers of high-pressure and sewerage fittings, gate and globe valves, fire-fighting equipment.

For Tasmania. - Metal Equipment Manufacturers Proprietary Limited,6 Philpottstreet. Marrickville, Sydney, makers of hammers, engineers’ ball pein and cross pein. clam hammers.

For Australia -

and H. Tools (South Australia), Portroad, Woodville, South Australia, makers of toolmakers’ callipers and dividers.
J. Watt, Burgundy-road, Heidelberg. Victoria, makers of pin vices.

In the light of these facts, the Minister will agree that this matter assumes a particular significance, because these two men are responsible for recommendations and advice regarding the quantities of tools of trade to be imported into Australia, and also the degree of control to be exercised over the distribution of such tools. In a letter signed by Mr. Patterson, Secretary of the Board of Area Management, and addressed to a number of firms, it was stated that restrictions had been removed from certain equipment, which could thereafter be disposed of, subject to the usual certification. The letter then gives a list of the tools affected. These men have a peculiar authority over the distribution of such goods. I understand that the directorate of which they are members purchased tools required for the fighting services, the Allied Works Council, and government factories. Holding high positions in a private company while exercising important executive functions in the Department of Munitions, they are in a favoured position because they have access to confidential information relating to the businesses of their competitors. In a letter directed to the trade, Mr. Naughton, in his capacity as “ F., Director of Machine Tools and Gauges “, said -

As you are no doubt aware, procurement of hand tools from the United States of America and the United Kingdom can at present he effected only after submission in the first instance of an overall programme of total Com m on weal th req ui reme nts.

Such a programme has already been submitted for the current year, but to facilitate the compilation of future programmes, and to ensure that total requirements are covered, you are requested to indicate on the attached schedule your own requirements for a twelvemonths’ period.

The following points should be observed:-

Figures should indicate normal requirements from all sources local and overseas, for twelve months’ sales, without regard to present stocks on hand or on order.

All quantities should be shown in single units, not dozens or gross lots.

Brands, types or sizes, are not required unless specifically shown on the schedule.

This return is not an order and does not imply any commitments for the goods thereon. Similarly, no undertaking can be given that the quantities will be available to you, as allocations from overseas sources aremade by the controlling authority in the country of manufacture.

It is important that your estimate should include goods of Australian origin.

– Their position is entirely different. The two men in question ought to have known when they entered- the department that they were not entitled to join a private firm. Their action in undertaking this new enterprise while still in the employ of the Government gives ground for suspicion. I should like the Minister for Munitions to say whether he has had inquiries made into this matter, and whether he knows of other similar instances. Will he also say whether these two men are still with the Department, and, if so, whether they will be permitted to retain their association with the firm of Crawford, Stuart and Company. If they are still in the employ of the department, and claim that they have severed their connexion with Crawford, Stuart and Company, it is incumbent on the department to make sure that a complete, and not merely a token severance, has been made.

I also invite the Minister to state whether or not he considers that information in the possession of the department should be used to the detriment of the interests of the private firms that have supplied it, or should be at the disposal of Naughton and McCarthy. I cannot say whether or not the honorable gentleman has made an investigation of the matter. If he has the information that I have supplied, does he intend to apply the public service regulations to these men? The firms supplying information have the right to be assured that it will not be available to any officer who may seek to use it to the advantage of other firms that are in competition with them.

On another occasion, I drew attention to the case of Sergeant Martin, who had “ fallen foul “ of the Army Medical Service and, consequently, although court-martialled and sentenced to a term of imprisonment, was released by the medical officer of the prison, who had substantiated all the claims he had made in regard to the state of his health. Possibly the Minister for the Army (Mr. Forde) is not aware of how in another case his deputy (Senator Fraser) has been misled by the Army Medical Service. Corporal M. L. Wilkinson, N291503, made, through his mother, certain claims in regard to the state of his health. I understand that he was a member of the Provost Corps. He claimed that he should not have been sent to Darwin, because he had lost the sight of one eye and had been classed as medically unfit for further service - a condition that had been noted in his paybook. He stated that when he was sent to Darwin his photograph was removed from the place in his pay-book that it had occupied, and was pasted over the notation: “Unfit for service.” I approached the doctor who had examined him, in order to learn whether or not this man had lost the sight of an eye. I have submitted to the Minister the medical certificate of Dr. Leo Flynn, of Wyoming, 175 Macquarie-street, Sydney, which states -

This is to certify that M. Wilkinson has lost sight of right eye (except light from dark) following . . . accident, aged fourteen years.

When called up for examination on the 23rd October, 1941, he received a medical certificate of unfitness from the area officer of Area 1b at Waverley Park. Subsequently, he was again called up and passed as medically fit.

Mr Forde:

– Had he any disability other than defective eyesight?

Mr HARRISON:

– I do not know. At Darwin, his duties’ necessitated the use of a motor cycle. He apprehended that his defective eyesight would cause him to “ pile into a ditch “, and possibly be responsible for loss of life. When he asked to be returned to Sydney, or to be discharged from the forces, the whole machinery of the Army was set in motion with a view to his retention. I have made representations repeatedly on his behalf. On the 3rd May, I received from Senator Fraser, as Acting Minister for the Army, a letter in which he dealt with a communication that I had sent to him on the 6th April. In this, he said -

After Corporal Wilkinson arrived in the Northern Territory, his commanding officer received a letter from Mrs. Wilkinson stating that her son had been ill since arriving in that area. She stated he was not tit for service there and requested his transfer to New South Wales. On receipt of the letter, Corporal Wilkinson was sent to 101 A.G.H. at Katherine and examined by a senior medical officer, who reported as follows: -

The symptoms are due to an anxiety state, the basis of which is probably due to his desire to return to his home State. I consider that he is quite fit for service in the Northern Territory.

On 14th February, 1944, the soldier complained that the condition of his eyes was causing him severe headaches and he was examined by a senior ophthalmologist at 101 A.G.H., Katherine. This officer reported -

The right eye presents an adherent leukoma and it is aphakic. The left eye is healthy. The adherent leukoma can give some headache but he complains of a multiplicity of symptoms including loss of memory, dizziness, bad feet, bad ankles and varicocele. Treatment of his eyes is not likely to influence his symptoms to any extent and is not therefore warranted.

I pressed the case with the Minister, and drew his attention to the fact that the medical officers would not recognize the loss of sight of one eye. I received from Senator Fraser a letter dated the 30th June, which stated -

The documents of Corporal Wilkinson have been examined at District Records Office, N.S.W. L. of C. Area, and his medical classification is shown thereon as Class A.2. There is no entry in the space provided for any particulars of any physical disability.

On 14th February, 1944, and again on 7th March, 1944, Corporal Wilkinson was thoroughly examined at 101 Aust. Gen. Hospital, and on the first occasion the specialist stated that treatment of the eyes was not warranted. On the second occasion, he was passed as “ fit for service in Northern Territory “.

Subsequently, I received a letter from Mrs. Wilkinson on behalf of her son. In a letter that she had written to him, she had told him of the denial by the Army authorities of any notation in his paybook or on his papers at the barracks, to the effect that he was medically unfit. His reply on the 10th July read -

My medical classification has now been altered to A2 although the doctor at the 101 hospital said I was still B2 as I have always been, the quotation yon ask about is still in existence, you see I have it myself, thought it would be safe, it says “ unfit. No sight in ‘right eye “, I have not been issued with another one yet.

That notation was still in his pay-book. Yet he was required to ride round Darwin on a motor-cycle, to the possibledanger of himself and others.

Mr.Forde. - According to the specialist, his other eye was perfectly healthy.

Mr HARRISON:

– So far as we know, it was. But even the doctors who examined him said that his condition was such as to have an effect upon his nervous system. On the 8th September, after I had made further representations, I received this extraordinary letter from the Minister -

Iam advised that the soldier was examined by a medical board on the 11th August, 1944, and again classified A2, disability “ vision “ - unlit for M.T. driving or bicycle riding, otherwise fit for all duties not involving eyesight or danger of damage to good eye. He is blind in the right eye.

That was entirely contrary to the information given earlier to the Minister by other medical officers. He was not then prevented from riding a motor cycle, because of the possibility of accident. The letter continued -

Prior to this medical hoard Corporal Wilkinson rode a motor cycle in the course of his military duty, but he is now engaged upon duties which do not require him to ride a motor cycle or drive a vehicle.

That is the complete case. The Minister was misinformed by Army medical officers. Steps should be taken to ensure that Ministers shall not be placed in such an invidious position. It is the old feud of the Army against the politician. “When a politician takes up a case on behalf of a soldier, the Army immediately is regimented in order to prevent any action from being taken. I suppose that that state of affairs will continue so long as there is an army and a parliament. The Minister should insist upon receiving authentic information in relation to every case that is placed before him by honorable members. The representations of not only members of Parliament, but also other persons, for the release from the Army, on compassionate grounds, of men who can be spared, have not received the sympathetic consideration that they have deserved. A typical case is that of a young chap with a milk run, and all the priorities and certificates associated with it, who was called up but was discharged as medically unfit because he had a broken arm. “When Japan entered the war, he considered that it was his duty to enlist, and he did so. His aged father took over the milk run. Honorable members know that the introduction of the zoning system of delivery has caused many difficulties. The father of this young man carried on the work until he could do so no longer because of broken health. The lad was then given compassionate leave and took over the milk run again. He also approached the appropriate man-power officer in his district and requested some help. He did not go to either a Minister or a member of Parliament. He pointed out that he had enlisted with a desire to serve his country, but now circumstances had- arisen, that made it absolutely necessary that either he or some other person, should carry on the business. The Mayor of Waverley happened to be the man-power officer and he found it impossible to supply a man to take the young fellow’s place. He then rang me in his private capacity to ask what I could do about the matter. In view of the fact that the young man volunteered in 1942 and has served his country well since then, something should be done for him. If he cannot maintain the round other milk vendors will take it over and he will lose it. That would- be a poor return to him for his national service. I hope that the Minister will be able to do something to meet the needs of this case.

Mr.RYAN (Flinders) [10.17 a.m.].- I am well aware that the granting of releases from the Army involves many difficulties. Careful consideration needs to be given to the circumstances of each case. We have been informed that there is close co-operation between the Army and man-power authorities, but, unfortunately, every little while we are astounded at some of the results.

Sir Frederick Stewart:

– -Or lack of results.

Mr RYAN:

– Quite so. It appears to me that the degree of co-operation is not as close as it should be. Some families have been placed in a desperate position because of the impossibility of obtaining relief. In some cases releases have been granted under circumstances much less pressing than in other cases in which releases have been refused. I bring to the notice of the committee the circumstances of a family of seven sons which must win for it the deep sympathy of every honorable member. It is a family which is thoroughly entitled to be proud of its national service, and of which the whole nation should also be proud. The circumstances came to my notice recently. The Victorian manager of Rocla. Limited, which has works at Spring Vale, in my electorate, and Messrs. Gartside Brothers, both protected industries, made application for the release of Mr. J. E. Woods, the seventh son, whose home is at Spring Vale, and who is now in the Army. Without question he is a man who should be released on compassionate grounds. The father died in the Alfred Hospital on the 30th January, 1944, and the mother is in failing health and cannot continue to live alone. Here is the history of the six sons -

Eldest son - Trooper William J. Woods, No. 2304, 4th Ii.H. Rgt. Killed in last war, Mav, 1018.

Second son - Owen Woods, lost his right arm in a motor accident about niue mouths ago.

Third son - 42009. Jj.A.C. Morris A. Woods, Group 422. R.A.A.F. Overseas.

Fourth son- VX71SH! Pte. Mark P. Woods, 8th Div. Prisoner of war in hands of Japanese.

Fifth son- VX0D074 Pte. George Woods. 2/23 Batt. 20th T.B. Killed in Middle East. 22nd July, 1042.

Sixth son - 41254. Tj.A.C. James W. Woods, died in New Guinea on active service, 1st January, 1944.

Application was also made on the 23rd April last, for the release of the seventh son, and the firms to which I have referred also sought the release of the man. Four months went by without any results. The case was brought to my notice again, and I referred it to the Minister for the Army a month ago, but no action has been taken since then. Surely this is a case which called for quick decision.

Mr Spender:

– The Minister should give a. direction from his place at the table, without more ado.

Mr Forde:

– If the honorable member will give me the man’s number and full name I shall take the case up immediately.

Mr RYAN:

– I shall do so. I know of a number of somewhat similar cases in which action has been seriously delayed; but I consider that Mr. Woods has an unanswerable claim to release, and I hope that a favorable decision will be given forthwith.

Mr BERNARD CORSER:
Wide Bay

– Seven weeks ago the Minister for the Army (Mr. Forde) announced that 30,000 soldiers in certain defined categories were to he released immediately. The categories, however, were such as to render the release of young farm workers most difficult, although the releases were intended to assist rural production, particularly dairying. Since then the Minister has announced that another 4,000 men who had been approved by the man-power authorities but refused release by the Army, would be made available to the dairying industry. The right honorable gentleman said that he hoped that these releases would be made within six weeks. Yesterday I received the following letter from the Deputy Director of Man Power in Queensland, Mr. Walsh : -

With reference to your personal representations on behalf of- , of Kilcoy, for the release of the above-named, 1 have to advise that this case was previously recommended by me, but was refused owing to the soldier being in a category not eligible for release by the military authorities.

Unless the soldier’s category has been changed and he is now in one eligible for release by the military authorities, no good purpose can be served by making further application for this soldier’s release.

Mr Forde:

– What is the date of that letter?

Mr BERNARD CORSER:

– The 1.5th September.

Mi’. Forde. - It seems to me that the person concerned is entitled to inclusion in the 4,000.

Mr BERNARD CORSER:

– I also am of that opinion, and the fact that his release was refused suggests to me that the requisite degree of co-operation between Army and man-power authorities is missing.

I have also made application for the release of another man whose services are required in the Nambour district. Concerning his case, I received the following letter dated the 13th September: -

With reference to your application for the release of the above-named from military service, I have to advise that 1 have now received information from the military authorities that such release is not approved.

It would appear, therefore, that the releases promised by the Minister are not occurring. At least we have the right to expect that 4,000 men will be made available without delay. A statement has been made to the effect that 3,000 of the first 20,000 men are to be released for dairy farms in New South Wales, and that 4,000 are to be allocated to other industries in thatState. Will the Minister tell me whether that is the case and, if so, why New South Wales is receiving such marked preference?

It appears to me that it will be extremely difficult for farmers to obtain releases under the conditions appertaining to the 30,000 men. Applications within these categories have to be made originally to the District War Agricultural committees. These voluntary, useful and tireless bodies are doing splendid work in assisting rural industries, but if their recommendations may be rejected by the military authorities, I suggest that the original application should be made, not to them, but to the Army. If that procedure be adopted a great deal of unnecessary effort on the part of the committees will be avoided. The making of applications to the Army authorities in the first place would give us a short cut to earlier decisions.

Mr SMITH:
Wakefield

– Before Japan entered the war it was the practice to broadcast weather reports, and I can understand that, while the J apanese were near our shores, there were sound reasons for discontinuing the broadcasts. Now, however, that the enemy has been pushed back, I hope the Minister for Air (Mr. Drakeford) will consider restoring this service which was of much value to country people.

Sir FREDERICK STEWART:
Parramatta

– I am sure that honorable members were moved by the story told by the honorable member for Flinders (Mr. Ryan), regarding the sacrifices made by one family. I hope that the Minister for the Army (Mr. Forde) also was moved, and that he will issue a direction that the family shall not be called upon to make further sacrifices. That was not a unique case, because I myself know of many similar- ones. I know of one family in which three sons enlisted in the forces. Two were killed, one while flying over Germany, and the other at El Alamein. The third boy, after serving in the Middle East, found his way to the front line in New Guinea. At this stage a brother-in-law, who was a dairy farmer at Cobargo, died, leaving no one to carry on the farm except the sister of the surviving brother. An application was made for the release of the brother, but it was peremptorily refused on the ground that he was in an operational area. I say to the credit of the Minister for the Army, that when I brought the case to his notice he arranged for the boy to be released immediately.

In the case of another family, two brothers were lost on the hospital ship Centaur, while a third was serving in the Army. After the loss of the Centaur, the nervous strain on the family was so great that it was affecting the health of the third brother’s wife. He applied for his release, but the application was refused. I then applied on his behalf, but was no more successful, although I did get for him a metropolitan posting. Thus, it will be seen that the strange lack of sympathy on the part of some persons who are in a position to decide these matters was not confined to the case mentioned by the honorable member for Flinders. I suggest that greater compassion might well be exercised in the case of families which have shown such readiness to sacrifice themselves.

I ask the Minister for Home Security (Mr. Lazzarini) whether he will be good enough to explain the item of £165,000 for additional equipment for air-raid precautions. It may be that in some remote parts of Australia money is still being spent on such equipment in anticipation of air raids, but honorable members will be surprised if that is so.

Last week, the Minister for Supply and Shipping (Mr. Beasley), when answering representations on behalf of a number of owners of petrol service stations whose businesses had been delicensed by the Liquid Fuel Control Board for alleged infractions of the regulations, said that he would set up a tribunal to which the men could appeal. He further undertook that there would be no further sealing until that had been done. I now ask him to go a step further by arranging that those service stations which were closed should be allowed to open, and the owners afforded the same opportunity to present their cases to the tribunal. The Minister generally deals very fairly with matters brought to his notice, but it seemed to me that he was somewhat unfair in his approach to the specific cases under discussion. If he looks at the papers he will find that the alleged offences occurred two and a half years ago, whereas- he conveyed the impression that they were continuing offences up to quite recent times. If the tribunal considers that the persons are guilty and deserving punishment, I shall have nothing further to say on the subject. Every honorable member who is a practical motorist knows how impossible it is for service station proprietors to comply with every detail of the regulations. Indeed, service station proprietors are not the only persons who sometimes fail to observe regulations. I wonder how many Ministers will this afternoon break the regulation requiring them not to exceed a speed of 30 miles an hour. I myself have broken it, if not frequently, at least occasionally. When I was discussing in this House the case of the. butcher at Portland, and the industrial disturbance which arose out of the matter, the Prime Minister explained at length that neither he nor his Ministers could be expected to act as policemen. He said that the case was one to be dealt with by the appropriate tribunals, which were empowered to try offenders and to impose penalties. I am now asking for no more than that the same principle shall be applied to the service station proprietors whom I have mentioned.

Mr MAKIN:
Minister for the Navy and Minister for Munitions · Hindmarsh · ALP

– The Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Harrison) referred to two men, Naughton and McCarthy, who are employees of the Machine Tools Directorate, and he claimed that they were shareholders in a recently formed company. This matter was brought to my notice about a month ago, and I called for the papers. Some time later, when I was in Melbourne, Colonel Thorpe, who is in charge of the directorate, interviewed me. I was given a firm assurance by Colonel Thorpe that the men had entirely dissociated themselves from the company.

Mr Harrison:

– They were principals, and the company is still in existence.

Mr MAKIN:

– That is true; but I was assured by Colonel Thorpe that they were no longer associated in any way with it, and that statement is borne out by the share register.

Mr Harrison:

– Is any one dummying for them?

Mr MAKIN:

– I asked Colonel Thorpe whether he had the slightest suspicion of anything of the kind, and he told me that, from his knowledge of the men, he was satisfied that they were telling the truth when they said that they no longer had any association with the company, and that they had no intention of resuming their association with it. I have made a note on the file that I consider it most improper for employees of the Munitions Department to be associated with new firms of the kind referred to, and it is known that I view with great disfavour what occurred. Colonel Thorpe assured me that the men were innocent of any deliberate breach. They are valuable officers, he said, and he asked me to accept his assurances.

Mr Harrison:

– Did he say that they were aware that they were breaking the regulation ?

Mr MAKIN:

– I have not met the men themselves. I thought it was right that I should send for the officer to whom they were responsible. As I have every confidence in his integrity I feel justified in accepting his assurances regarding the men under him. I do not remember having seen the letter that was sent out to the trade ; but I shall make it my business to do so; and if it appears that an injustice is likely to be done to any business interest whatever or that there is ground for the slightest suspicion, I shall take appropriate action. Should there be evidence at any time of wrong doing on the part of men in the department, I shall take the strongest action. As I have said, in this matter I accepted the assurances given to me by Colonel Thorpe, the Director of Machine Tools, regarding the integrity of these men. I shall not allow the slightest breath of suspicion to rest upon any one who is in charge of any administrative function of the Munitions Department, particularly if an injustice could be done to others. Should there be any other phase of this question which the honorable gentleman thinks should be dealt with, I assure him that if he brings it to my notice it will be given my personal review. I shall not permit any person in the Munitions Department to take advantage of his official position to further his own trade interests.

I shall bring to the notice of the Minister for Supply and Shipping (Mr. Beasley) the matter raised by the honorable member for Parramatta (Sir Frederick Stewart), and I have no doubt that the garage proprietors whose businesses have been closed because of breaches of the regulations will be afforded an opportunity to present their case to a properly constituted tribunal.

Sir Frederick Stewart:

– In the meantime, I trust that they will be permitted to re-open their premises.

Mr Makin:

– I shall bring that matter especially to the notice of the Minister.

Mr Hughes:

As regards air-raid trenches and shelters, the position is that south of the Tropic of Capricorn the restrictions have been relaxed, except in regard to external lighting. Trenches can be filled, particularly should they be dangerous or unhealthy, and recently it was decided that the block-bouses erected in the streets of Brisbane may be removed. The Commonwealth Government cannot provide the labour to remove them. These matters are dealt with under State laws, which the States may have to repeal. I have signed authorities to enable that to be done. In Victoria, there is nothing to prevent the filling in of trenches and air-raid shelters which are a nuisance, or endanger traffic. If desired, I can communicate with the Premier of Victoria on the subject.

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:
Barker · ALP

– Many families have no members in the fighting services, whilst other families are represented in the services by several members. Last March, I raised the matter of the Mildwater family, but the only reply that I received was that nothing could be done. Last week, one of my colleagues in the Senate was given an undertaking that the matter would be investigated again. There were only three sons in the family. Two of them were killed in Libya, and the third is serving in New Guinea. The decision of the Army is that the only one still living is to remain in the service. That is a decision which this country will not accept, especially as there are so many families that have many eligible sons, not one of whom has had any active service whatever.

Last March, I .mentioned the desire of the Mount Gambier oatmeal mills to obtain the release from the Army of a corporal and a private in order to increase production by 28 per cent. Although the factory cannot obtain the labour that it needs, the Army has refused to release those men. Yet when tenders were called oh two occasions for the supply of 80 tons of oatmeal, none was received. The situation is Gilbertian.

These Estimates deserve much closer inspection than they appear likely to have ; because to-day is Friday and many honorable members want to leave Canberra by the train which departs at 4.15 p.m. In due course the axe will fall, and all votes will be agreed to, whatever the amount might be. The presentation of the Estimates affords an occasion for a frank ministerial statement of what is implied in the different appropriations. There are many items on pages 63 and 64 of which explanations ought to be given. We have not heard anything for some time in regard to flax production, yet we are asked to agree to an appropriation of £1,488,000 under the heading “ General expenses “. That is to he reduced by the amount to foe recovered from the sale of flax fibre. The provision in regard to machinery and plant in mills to process flax straw is £122,000. That is rather an important venture. Other items that take the eye are: “Power alcohol distilleries - construction, £473,000”, and “Production, £115,000”. That venture has been in existence for quite a while. Another gem is : “ ‘Gold mines withdrawn from production - maintenance, £40,000”. The amount spent last year was £5,500. That should be elucidated. Other items are: “Aluminium industry in Australia -establishment, £500,000”; “Essential industries and production “ - goodness knows what that means - “ assistance, £1,050,000”. That item is qualified by the word “ assistance “. We do not know to what assistance £1,650,000 is related, or what and where these industries are. The next item is: “ Goal production “ - doubtless a black subject. It is followed by: “Flax mills, £160,000”. Another pearl of great price is : “ Maintenance and rent, £S0,000 “. We are not told what that is for. The matter of rentals, and the occupation of buildings by different services, is one that badly needs review.

Many important institutions have been “turfed out” in order to make way for the services. I agree that that policy was necessary at the end of 1941 and for a good part of 1942; but I am equally certain that many buildings and institutions should now foe handed back to their owners. I have in mind schools, orphanages, and big homes for which the Commonwealth is paying exorbitant rents and from which it is not obtaining a useful return. Large savings could be effected, but I am afraid that they will not foe made until Ministers take a grip of the service departments, exercise their authority, and tell their subordinates what the limits are. Under present conditions, those who are underneath them tell Ministers what the limits are. Service Ministers have a difficult job, and deserve every sympathy; nevertheless, sooner or later they will have to grasp firmly the nettle of extravagance for which every service department is notorious. Wot the least notorious is the Department of Munitions. A letter came to me in the mail to-day from a man who is working in a munitions factory. In it, he has commented on a speech that was made only last week by the Minister for Munitions (Mr. Makin). I shall not quote from it, because I should have to table it and thus divulge the name of the man and the factory in which he is working. He is in an aircraft factory, and is a man of good repute. Criticism is voiced in so many quarters, and so often that all of it cannot be wrong. We are told by the occupants of the treasury bench that everything in the ministerial garden, in regard to manpower, is lovely. Ministers are the only persons in Australia who hold that belief. The community, generally,’ is completely confident that the grossest waste of man-power is occurring in practically every service and department in the Commonwealth. I do not care for committees as a rule; but the stage is fast being set for the appointment of a parliamentary committee to go through some of the departments with an axe, and fix the responsibility for the misinformation that is supplied to Ministers on matters which ought to be handled in a very different way from what we have experienced in the last twelve or eighteen months.

Mr MULCAHY:
Lang

.Many young men who, in the early days of the war, while studying for professional careers in teaching, law, and medicine, enlisted when they had only partially completed their courses, ought to be released from the Army in order that they may resume their studies. Thus the country would be saved the trouble of finding employment for them. I have in mind particularly a lad who had a brilliant pass in the leaving certificate examination in New South Wales. When the war broke out he had been studying law for three years. He joined the Army, and was sent to the Middle East. He saw: service in Tobruk, and after returning to Australia was sent to New Guinea. He is now on the mainland, having completed between four and five years’ service. The AttorneyGeneral’s Department has asked for his release.

Another young man who has been in the Australian Imperial Force from the commencement of the war has never left Australia. Prior to enlistment, he was studying law and was employed in his father’s office. He, too, should be released.

The Minister for the Army (Mr. Forde) is acquainted with the facts of one of these cases, because I have made representations to him concerning it. I hope that he will investigate both of them.

Mr ABBOTT:
New England

– I have referred on different occasions to the programme for the production in Australia of Lancaster bombers and Merlin Rolls-Royce engines, and have asked the Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin) questions on the subject. I state the view of many people when I say that I am absolutely dissatisfied with the replies to my questions. ThePrime Minister informed me that the Lancaster bomber programme was undertaken at the request of Great Britain. The right honorable gentleman did not tell the whole story. Last March, the Sydney Morning Herald published an article by its technical expert, Mr. Axford, on the manufacture of transport carrier aircraft, the military prototype of the DC3 Douglas machine. The article said -

The twin-row Wasp engine being manufactured in Australia is admirably suited to these planes, and to the civilian model of them.

The article continued -

Although the Australian Government had requested the permission of the United States of America to manufacture these planes here, and obtain the necessary machine tools and other gear for their manufacture in Australia, the Government of the United States of America had refused’ to allow that material to come out under lend-lease, and had refused blue-prints for the manufacture of these machines. It was also necessary to obtain General MacArthur’s consent so as to permit the necessary lend-lease material to come to this country for the manufacture of these transport carriers.

Apparently, at that time no mention had been made of the Lancaster bomber programme. At any rate, the statements in the article had not been denied. After the Americans refused to co-operate with us in the manufacture of transport planes - no doubt because of our limited manpower and the possibility of using it to better advantage in other directions - we were told that the British Government had asked us to manufacture Lancaster bombers. I should like to know whether we first asked the British Government to ask us to undertake this work. I am informed that it will take two or three years to manufacture Lancaster bombers in this country with Merlin Rolls-Royce engines. With Germany, the beast of Europe, practically bleeding to death, and with the Allied Nations preparing to give the coup de grace to its other enemies, including Japan, it seems to me to be inconceivable that we should be called upon to undertake the manufacture of Lancaster bombers in this country. Surely it will not be suggested that the American and British aircraft factories will not be able to produce sufficient aircraft to supply Allied needs for the remainder of the war. I consider that by embarking on the manufacture of Lancaster bombers with Merlin RollsRoyce engines we shall incur an unjustifiable waste of man-power, materials and money. According to my information the Merlin Rolls-Royce engine is not suitable for fast commercial aircraft for operation on civil routes. No doubt the Minister will make a statement on that point. I do not consider that the Lancaster bomber is in any sense suitable for conversion to civilian use. By the kindness of the Minister, I had a very interesting trip in the Lancaster bomber that was in Australia, but a more uncomfortable aircraft to travel in I have never entered. If we think there is a market for heavy transport planes after the war, I would ask honorable members to consider what I am about to say. I have been informed that, giving these machines the relatively short life of four years, only about seven of them would be required’ each year to meet Australian civil requirements. I consider, therefore, that a serious waste of resources will be involved in undertaking this work. It would be tragic to mislead Australian artisans into believing that by taking up this work the Government is entering an industry which will ensure to the employees full-time employment in the post-war years. It would be far more desirable for us to concentrate on the construction, at reasonable prices, of lighter type aircraft for civilian use. If necessary, a part of the factory capacity could also be used for the manufacture of motor cars. If the Lancaster bomber programme be persisted in, I fear that with the very first indication of slackness in the aircraft industry work will cease. The job is being undertaken, in my opinion, to satisfy the vanity of those who wish Lancaster bombers with Merlin Rolls-Royce engines to be manufactured in Australia, although they will be quite unnecessary for use in the war against Japan.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member has exhausted his time.

Mr FORDE:
Minister for the Army · Capricornia · ALP

.- The honorable member for Flinders (Mr. Ryan) brought to notice an application that has been made for the release from the Army of Mr. J. E. Woods, of Spring Vale, on compassionate grounds. If the circumstances are as stated by the honorable member, it would appear that Mr. Woods should be released immediately. I have called for all the papers in the case and will give it immediate attention.

Mr Ryan:

– I am sure that the information I have given is correct.

Mr FORDE:

– It happens, at times, that some facts may not be stated to honorable members who are asked to make representations concerning the release of particular individuals, but I assure the honorable member that if, on examination of the case, I find that the circumstances are as he has indicated, Mr. Woods will be released.

– No; the attitude I adopt is that all cases must pass through the usual channels.

Several honorable members have referred to discharges from the Army. The first case referred to by the honorable member for Wide Bay (Mr. Corser) seems, on the face of it, to be entitled to favorable consideration within the category of the 4,000 releases promised for the dairying industry, but I shall give further consideration to it. Both the honorable member for Wide Bay and the honorable member for Maranoa (Mr. Adermann) stated that the Deputy Director of Man Power in New South Wales, Mr. Bellemore, had stated that 3,000 of the first 20,000 men to be released from the Army were assigned to the dairying industry of New South Wales, and 4,000 to other industries in that State. The honorable member for Maranoa added that the great capitalistic State of New South Wales was once again being granted undue preference. I assure the honorable gentleman that he is in error in that connexion. Preferential treatment is not being given to any State. The applications for discharges are being considered judicially on their merits by the Director-General of Man Power. There is the closest co-operation between the man-power authorities and the Army in investigating all claims that are being made for discharges.

The statement of the honorable member for Maranoa was sheer nonsense. The number of men to he discharged from the Army by the 30th June of next year is 45,000, and not 20,000. As the population of New South Wales is 2,867,000 in a total population of 7,200,000, the number of discharges that should be allotted to that State on a pro rata populationbasis is 17,500. But I do not believe that the pro rata basis is sound. Industrial needs should be the governing factor. Assuming that the honorable member quoted Mr. Bellemore correctly, 7,000 discharges would be below what New South Wales is entitled to. As a matter of fact, of the total service discharges of 45,000,

New South Wales has been allotted 12,700, and of the 4,000 for the dairying industries, only 1,500, and not 3,000, which shows that the honorable member’s figures are wrong. If his figures refer to the 20,000 already discharged in accordance with the decision made in October last, the official statistics show that the actual position is as follows : - 5,022 men have been released in Queensland which has a population of 1,047,000. 5,742 have been released in Victoria which has a population of 1,986,000. 4,742 have been released in New South Wales which has a population 2,807,000. 2,172 have been released in Western Australia which has a population of 564,000. 1,423 have been released in South Australia which has a population of 615,000. 1,185 have been released in Tasmania which has a population of 242,000.

Queensland has thus had the highest proportion of releases in relation to population of any State in the Commonwealth, its number being second only to the number released in Victoria. The high proportion of releases in Victoria and Queensland is due to the fact that those are the leading butter producing States of the Commonwealth, and that the highest priority was given to men required for work in the dairying industry. The figures show that the number of men released is highest in the States which normally had the largest number employed in dairying, and lowest in the States with the lowest number employed in that industry. The honorable member said that the release of men for the dairying industry in Queensland represented 38 per cent., as compared with 48 per cent, in some States, and 58 per cent, in others. The figures I have already cited show that those percentages are wrong. Queensland has received the highest percentage of releases in proportion both to the population and to the number of rural workers in the State. The number of men released in Queensland represents approximately 18 per cent, of the total number employed in dairying in that State, whilst the number released in Victoria represents only about 12 per cent, of the dairy employees there.

The honorable member for Maranoa then said that the release of the soldier, Wittkopp, was asked for on the 23rd March last on the ground that he was a key man in the peanut industry. He said he approached the Department of. the Army and that after the Minister for the Army had taken it up with Army chiefs, a reply was received that the man-power authorities in Brisbane had not made any recommendation; and that if they recommended the man’s discharge he would be released in the course of a few days. Nevertheless, he said, he had the previous day received advice that the Army had refused the release. I rang the Adjutant-General in Melbourne, and learned that a favorable recommendation from the manpower authorities had been received only within the last two days, upon which he had approved of the release. It appears from the facts that this man was essential to the peanut-growing industry, and should be released. I do not say that no mistakes have been made by the Army organization, but it must be remembered that it has to deal with many hundreds of thousands of men. Colonel Parkes, who was in charge of this activity, devoted himself tirelessly to the work, and had capable men under him. So freely did he spend himself that he suffered a breakdown, and has had to take leave. His place was taken by Colonel Todd, who has made a close study of the work. Mr. Wurth, the retiring Director of Man Power, told me that no one could have co-operated more fully with the manpower authorities than Colonel Parkes had done. It must be remembered, however, that soldiers are serving in such widely separated areas as Queensland, the Northern Territory, Western Australia, and New Guinea, and it is nor possible to get speedy decisions regarding applications for discharge.

I said the other day that the 4,000 unsuccessful applications for the discharge of men to return to the dairying industry would be automatically reconsidered by the Army authorities without fresh applications being made either by the farmers or by the soldiers themselves. I am pleased to say that, although the decision was made only after the 21st August last, over 2,000 discharges have already been approved, irrespective of the unit in which they are serving, or the physical condition of the men, and they are already on their way home to re-engage in dairy production. The release of these men will do much to solve the problems of the dairying industry, although it cannot be expected to solve them all, and it would be unwise to expect any substantial increase of production. Dairying is confined largely to the eastern seaboard of Australia, and the season has been very bad. In my own district of central Queensland farmers have told me that butter production has dropped by one-half. It is not so much a matter of. getting labour to milk the cows, as of keeping the cows themselves alive, and similar conditions prevail in many of the other dairying districts. Nevertheless, in view of our commitments to feed the fighting forces in the South- West Pacific, as well as our own civilian population, and to export as much butter as possible to Great Britain to enable the authorities there to maintain the meagre ration of 2 oz. a week, we must do everything possible to increase production in Australia. Thus, the release of the 4,000 men referred to, together with the release of a further 30,000 by June of next year, and 15,000 from the Air Force, will be of very material assistance in the achievement of our objective.

There are certain categories from which discharges cannot be made, and it is well that these should be put on record. Some people are inclined to blame the Army commanders or the Minister for the Army, because all applications by parents or employers for the release of men are not granted. I remind honorable members that, for modern war, it is necessary that men be highly trained. They must, in fact, be skilled tradesmen and technicians. Men who have been trained for two, three and up to four years become very valuable, and their commanding officers are naturally reluctant to part with them. If the applications for release were granted it is probable that some units would have to go into action with 50 per cent, of raw recruits. Therefore, the CommanderinChief drew up certain categories, and asked that no releases be made from them. This requirement applied to the 20,000 releases which were made up to the 30th June efi this year, and the following categories have been prepared in connexion with the 30,000 releases which are to be made up to June of next year : -

Those medically classed “A” who are serving in units outside Australia or certain other units now in Australia which are required for projected operation. These units cannot be stated for security reasons.
Personnel medically classified “A” who are undergoing recruit training or awaiting onward movement as reinforcements for these units.
Tradesmen and specialists, except in cases where they are surplus to requirements.
Personnel whose release will seriously affect the efficiency of their units.

The above conditions will not apply to men over 4.0 years of age or those over 35 years of age who have completed three years’ full-time Army service, except when they are classified as key men in their units.

I realize that there is a tendency in these trying times to say that the non-release of men for whom applications have been made is due to bungling. On Saturday afternoon last, I visited a military hospital in Queensland, and was struck by the wonderful spirit of the men who have served in New Guinea. Some were minus a leg, others an arm. Some were recuperating from serious illnesses, whilst others were suffering from a recurrence of malaria. But all. were in the highest spirits, and when asked whether they had any grievances they all said that they had none. It was an inspiration to meet them, and to note their outlook. Subsequently, I was misreported as saying that the people of Queensland had a “ moaner “ complex. As a matter of fact, I did not say that. I said that a minority of the people of Queensland had such a complex. I desire to pay tribute to the splendid spirit of the men who have faced death in defence of their country. They realize the horrors and the responsibilities of war. It would be well if all our people were to realize these, also. They should not drift into a condition of complacency, thinking that because the Germans are on the run the war is almost over for Australia. It would be a tragedy if we failed to realize that after Germany has been defeated Australia will have to devote all its energy for perhaps another eighteen months to defeat Japan.

Mr Abbott:

– How does that square with the Lancaster bomber programme?

Mr FORDE:

– The Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin) was quite correct when he said that the manufacture of Lancaster bombers in Australia was undertaken at the request of the British authorities so that there would be available here facilities for the servicing of the Lancaster bombers which would be sent to the South-West Pacific Area before the war with Japan was finished. The Government did not embark upon the enterprise lightly, but only after the most searching investigation. Experts were sent to the United States of America and Great Britain to study the matter, and they brought back blue prints, plans and specifications. Every assistance was given by the parent firm in Great Britain which was responsible for the construction of Lancaster bombers, the machines that have done so much to destroy the war industries of Germany.

Mr White:

-Will the Minister give an assurance that the cases of families that have been heavily hit by casualties will be given special consideration, and that remaining members of such families will be moved to a non-combatant area, as was done in the last war?

Mr FORDE:

– The suggestion, I am sure, appeals to every honorable member. I shall have a further discussion with the Commander-in-Chief in regard to it. It will present difficulties, but it is only natural that if “a family has lost a couple of its members it should ask that a son still remaining with the forces should be transferred to a base job on compassionate grounds. I promise that sympathetic consideration will be given to such eases. It is reasonable to expect that such instances will be brought to my notice, and ifthat be done, attention will be given to them.

The honorable member for Balaclava also inquired as to the Army Research Committee. That unit was established by the Commander-in-Chief to carry out research work in connexion with the administration of territories taken over by Australia, and to inquire into other aspects of army administration, so that military control might dovetail into the civil administration that will follow in those territories. I am assured by the Department of External Affairs that this unit has rendered services of inestimable value. I regret that answers have not been supplied to questions asked by honorable members, and I shall see that that is done. I am assured that the members of the committee are qualified for the special work on which they are engaged.

As ‘the enemy is driven further from Australia, the tendency to urge that the strength of the fighting services be cut down becomes greater, and, accordingly, claims are submitted for the release of man-power for various purposes. At times, letters from members of the fighting services, saying that they are not fully occupied, are submitted in support of such requests. An army cannot work regular hours; at times, men may be on duty continuously for 24 hours or more, after which they must have a rest. There cannot be a regular routine. I have had numbers of complaints that men in training camps are worked too hard. I have had other complaints that they have not enough to do. The men in the units do not know what has been planned by the higher command. It is for that purpose that the War Commitments Committee has been established. That body obtains an accurate estimate of the man-power requirements of the fighting services and of industry, and its recommendations are placed before the War Cabinet. The chiefs of staffs are heard, and a decision is made. That was done before it was decided to release from the services first 20,000 men and later an additional 45,000 men, of whom 30,000 were in the Army and 15,000 in the Air Force. For some time a survey of the man-power position in the Army has been under way. There is also a War Establishments Investigation Committee, which is presided over by Brigadier Locke. Mr. A. E. Hutchinson, the Controller of Civil Establishments at Army Head-quarters, who is an outstanding’ public servant and rendered great service to this country in the Defence Department during the last war, is a member. For over twenty years he has been staff superintendent of the Australian Gas Light Company, and has made a special study of staffing problems. He has rendered great service on this committee. Another body is the Order of Battle Investigation Committee, which is presided over by Colonel Cheetham. It examines the details of establishments and recommends what man- power can be saved. Every week there are transfers of men from one unit to another, and special trains take troops from one part of Australia to another, particularly from less vulnerable areas to those which are more vulnerable. That is done on the advice of the Chiefs-of-Staff and in accordance with the changing strategic position. For some time a complete reorientation of the Australian Army organization has been taking place in order to maintain the maximum striking power. That maximum was decided by the Prime Minister in conference with President Roosevelt and Mr. Churchill. I believe that if all sections of the community will exercise patience we shall be able to maintain the striking power to which the Prime Minister committed Australia. The Order of Battle Investigation Committee carries out a careful scrutiny of war establishments; the work goes on continuously. We hear complaints from time to time that too many men are working in base jobs, but when their names are asked for, usually they are not forthcoming. The idea is to get all service personnel available as reinforcements for the fighting services. That is going on all the time. I have frequent consultations with the CommanderinChief, as has also the Prime Minister. I pay a tribute to the work of these two committees; they are doing a splendid job in assuring that the maximum use is being made of Army personnel.

The Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Harrison) referred to the case of a Corporal Wilkinson. The facts regarding this man’s physical condition are as stated by the honorable member. From a perusal of the papers in connexion with this case, I find that on the 19th July the’ honorable member discussed this matter with me and indicated that he was not satisfied with the information that had been given to him. I then had the matter reviewed and the following report was submitted by head-quarters: -

It is advised that previous reports submitted, relevant to this case, are correct in all respects.

Further advice is now submitted, as follows: -

Cpl. Wilkinson was medically boarded on 11 Aug. 44 and again classified A2 disability “vision”. Remarks of the board were: “Unfit for MT driving or bicycle riding, otherwise fit for all duties not involving eye strain or danger of damage to good eye “.

Soldier is, in fact, blind in his right eye.

Prior to his medical board on 11 Aug. 44, Cpl. Wilkinson rode a motor cycle in the course of his military duty. He is now engaged upon duties which do not require him to ride a motor cycle or drive a vehicle.

The honorable member was advised of the purport of that report on the 8th September. It will be seen that the case of this soldier has received careful attention by the Army authorities. Although Corporal Wilkinson has lost the sight of his right eye, he is considered by the Army Medical Board to be fit to carry out military duties appropriate to his medical classification.

Mr Harrison:

– How does the Minister explain the earlier letters from which I quoted?

Mr FORDE:

– On the 30th June the honorable member was advised that Corporal Wilkinson’s pay-book had been examined and that it did not contain the entry, “‘Unfit for service; no sight in right eye “.

Mr Harrison:

– I refer to two letters which were addressed to me by Senator Fraser, who was acting as Minister for the Army during the absence of the Prime Minister abroad, in which it was stated clearly that thisman was all right, apart from a slight defect.

Mr FORDE:

– No doubt the slight defect referred to was his defective vision, which gave to him an A2 medical classification. In accordance with Army regulations, he was still capable of performing certain duties.

Mr Abbott:

– Is he to be kept as a motor-cycle rider?

Mr FORDE:

– No. In my opinion, the Medical Board was right in recommending that he be given some job other than riding a motor cycle or driving a vehicle.

Mr Harrison:

– I do not object to that. I draw attention to the fact that in the two letters which I received from

Senator Fraser the medical officers did not acknowledge that Corporal Wilkinson had lost the sight of one eye. How does the Minister reconcile the two statements ?

Mr FORDE:

– I understood from the honorable gentleman that the medical man to whom he referred had said that this man had defective vision. The later description of the Medical Board was more accurate. Certainly, his vision is defective; but that does not classify him as medically unfit for service in the Army. He to-day is classified as A2, and in the opinion of the Medical Board is quite fit to do work in the Northern Territory which does not necessitate his riding a motor cycle or driving a car. The honorable gentleman says that he received two letters from the Acting Minister for the Army (Senator Fraser) while I was Acting Prime Minister. I shall obtain the file, and shall have the case fully and sympathetically considered. Every man in the Army is entitled to that.

The honorable member for Lang (Mr. Mulcahy) invited me to consider the position of many young men who, while studying for a profession, enlisted in the black days of 1942. He said that they ought to be discharged, in order that they might resume their studies. Every such case, if application be made through the commanding officer, is considered on its merits. I know that there . is a shortage of students in some of the professions, the medical profession being one of them.

Sir Earle Page:

– A quota is fixed of the number of medical students who may attend universities.

Mr FORDE:

– That is for the very good reason that the universities could not cope with the number of students offering. I have been advised by at least two universities that they had never previously had such brilliant “ freshers “ and second-year students as they have had since merit has counted for more than the depth of a parent’s purse. The aid to students was adopted as the result of a Cabinet decision. It has merit, and has worked very satisfactorily during the war period. I am heartily in accord with the suggestion that consideration be given to the circumstances of young men who, in the. dark days of 1942, discontinued their university courses, some of them in medicine and others in reserved or protected subjects, entered the fighting services, and went to different battle areas. The CommanderinChief has granted some applications, but _ to lay down that every such application must automatically foe approved would be to establish a dangerous precedent. Consideration has to be given to the claims of young men who, at the time of enlistment, were learning trades, and many other persons equally deserving. The honorable member for Lang may rest assured that I shall take a personal interest in the matter.

The honorable member for Barker (Mr. Archie Cameron) referred to the Mildwater case. I promise to have it reviewed. He also referred to the application that two men be released for the oatmeal industry. If the facts are as he has stated them, it appears to me that those men should be discharged. I leave to my colleague the Minister for Supply and Shipping (Mr. Beasley) the reply to the comments of the honorable member in regard to the flax, power alcohol, and aluminium industries, because he is more conversant with them.

The honorable member for Barker further urged that schools, orphanages, and homes that were impressed for one or another of the fighting services should be returned to their owners. That is in accordance with the policy of the Government. Definite steps have been taken to return all educational institutions to those from whom they were impressed. Many big public school buildings in Melbourne were taken over foy the fighting services in. the early part of 1942, and most of them have been handed hack. A special committee of the Cabinet has been considering the matter, and from month to month other institutions are being vacated. The Hirings Administration of the Army dealt with all applications for accommodation on behalf of the services. I am completely in sympathy with the proposal, and the honorable gentleman may rest assured that it will have my attention.

Mr. DRAKEFORD (Maribyrnong– Minister for Air and Minister for Civil

Aviation) [12.6]. - The honorable member for New England (Mr. Abbott) has again raised the matter of aircraft production. I consider that his case has already been adequately and very effectively replied to by comprehensive statements by the Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin) in this chamber, and foy the Minister for Aircraft Production (Senator Cameron) in the Senate.

The honorable member for Reid (Mr. Morgan) expressed concern at the possibility of a number of the men who are engaged on the large-scale production of aircraft of different types being left without employment. The honorable member for New England expressed the same fear. I can understand their concern. But surely nobody who views with a reasonable mind the problems with which we shall be faced in the near future will suggest that it is possible continuously to employ men in establishments that have purely a war objective. I assure the committee that the Government will concern itself with the provision of work of other types, in order that men who have gained a good deal of skill may foe usefully and profitably employed on behalf of Australia.

The honorable member for New England expressed dissatisfaction with answers he had received, and cited an authority named Axford, who has written special articles for the Sydney Morning Herald. I have read some of those articles ; they are not without merit. But surely those that are designed to raise difficulties, or to present certain points of view, do not necessarily call for a detailed reply in this chamber ! Apparently, the honorable member for New England holds a high opinion of the views of this writer. He expressed a wish to be told whether or not the United Kingdom had been asked to request Australia to make Lancaster bombers and Merlin Rolls Royce engines. I say definitely that it was not. The suggestion of the honorable member is entirely unworthy. I had hoped that the Prime Minister would make a statement - he may do so before the end of this sessional period - which would disclose that use may have to be made of the Lancaster bomber a good deal earlier than has been anticipated. I leave the subject to be dealt with by the right honorable gentleman, because of its interesting implications outside Australia.

The honorable member for New England also said that it was unfair to involve men in work in an industry which could not be sustained after the war, and that they would be better employed in the manufacture of aircraft of small types, or motor cars. His criticism has the fault that it is not constructive. Obviously, when it was no longer necessary to produce aircraft for war purposes any government would turn its attention and the productive capacity of its factories to other industries which would be of benefit to Australia. This Government is more likely to do that than would be an administration formed by any other party. It intends to proceed in that direction.

The honorable member for Wakefield (Mr. Smith) requested the restoration of the broadcasts of river gaugings, which, in his opinion, were useful to tie farming community. The order in regard to the broadcasting of meteorological information was issued by General Headquarters. The security area ordered by General Head-quarters, on the instructions of the Combined Chiefs-of-Staff, Washington, now runs from the South Pole northward along 125 degrees east longitude to 20 degrees south latitude, then eastward to 138 degrees east longitude, then northward along 138 degrees to the Australian coast in Queensland. It follows the Queensland coast round Cape York, down to 25 degrees south latitude, then eastward along 25 degrees to 159 degrees east longitude. The honorable member for Wakefield, and others who have evinced an interest in the matter, will be pleased to know that we are proposing to resume at an early date the publication in the press of charts, weather notes, forecasts, and general meteorological services. Broadcasting must still be limited to the present basis. We are supplying at present to the press and to broadcasting stations information on flood warnings, and any significant rains in the flood areas.

Proposed votes agreed to.

Ordered -

That the following proposed votes be considered together: -

Other war services.

Other administrations - Recoverable expenditure.

Mr HARRISON:
Wentworth

– The inclusion of the items “Publicity Material and Services” and “Post-war Educational Camipaign” in the vote for the Department of Information enables me to refer to what I regard as a gross misuse of public money, and a flagrant disregard by the Government of the rights of Parliament, in connexion with the publicity and the general conduct of the referendum campaign. So that the country may know exactly what power the Government has to use public moneys, I direct attention to section 83 of the Constitution, which provides that no money shall be drawn from the treasury of the Commonwealth except under an appropriation made by law. While the Government was inviting the people to consent to an alteration of the Constitution, it was flagrantly departing from the requirements of that instrument by the misuse of moneys contributed by the general public for other purposes. It is known that no appropriation was made by the Parliament for the spate of propaganda which the Government issued during the referendum campaign. Apart from the Constitution, no statutory authority for such expenditure exists except that contained in section 6a of the Referendum (Constitution Alteration) Act which provides for the publication of information for and against referendum proposals. Consequently, any public moneys which have been expended on propaganda apart from that covered by the authority I have mentioned have, in my opinion, been expended illegally. The Estimates do not reveal any expenditure. The details of any moneys that have been expended - and we all know that large sums have been used - have been concealed inthe ordinary votes for various departments, or the money has been provided from Treasurer’s Advance. No doubt, on some future occasion when Supplementary Estimates are being submitted, Parliament will be asked to agree to whatever expenditure has been incurred under that heading. The Treasurer (Mr. Chifley) has made a statement that one specific sum has been expended, but I can find no item in the Estimates dealing with that expenditure. A responsibility rests upon the Government to indicate the sources from which it obtained the money for its “ Yes “ campaign. The money must have been obtained without parliamentary authority from one or other of the sources I have mentioned. That is the gravamen of my charge against the Government.

We all know that Ministers decided, some considerable time ago, that public funds would be used for the purpose of securing an affirmative vote at the referendum. ‘Last March, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Menzies) and the Leader of the Australian Country party (Mr. Fadden) each asked the Treasurer to give an assurance that equal use of funds, and other facilities for propaganda purposes, would be granted to both “ Yes “ and “ No “ advocates throughout the campaign, but their appeal fell on deaf ears. It was entirely disregarded, although those right honorable gentlemen lead parties that represent, probably, more than 50 per cent, of the Australian population. In spite of their appeal, the Government went cheerfully on its own course. My authority for declaring that government policy, on this subject, was decided a considerable time ago is a series of statements made by Ministers. The Minister for ‘the Army (Mr. Forde) is reported, in the Sydney Morning Herald, of the 4th June, to have said -

The Government will certainly continue to place before the people of Australia the reasons why they should vote “ Yes “.

He was referring to a charge that had been levelled against the Government, even so long ago as that date, that it had misused public moneys in connexion with propaganda for a “Yes” vote. On the 26th May the Minister for Information (Mr. Calwell) in speaking about funds for “Yes” propaganda said -

The Government was taking the people into its confidence.

Of course it was ! It was putting over a remarkable confidence trick. It was attempting to “ slip across “ something that had never before been attempted by any Australian government. The Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin) has also been concerned in this use of public funds, for, after his return from abroad, he was reported to have said -

This referendum is no longer my referendum.

Mr Lazzarini:

– It was not a party political campaign.

Mr Calwell:

– If it was, honorable gentlemen opposite made it so by opposing the proposals.

Mr HARRISON:

– Public officers were heard on numerous occasions expounding the policy of the Labour party. I have no doubt that in doing so they were obeying orders, and I do not blame them on that account. It is regrettable, however, that officers of the Department of Information, the Department of Postwar Reconstruction, and the Army Educational Service were called upon to carry the Government’s banner throughout this campaign, and that only one side of the case was presented bythem. I am aware that whenever public officers participated in the campaign it was said that they were doing so in an unofficial capacity. The fact remains that they were doing so because they were told to do so, and it was their duty to do as they were told. Taking into account all the instrumentalities that were used by the Government, I do not consider that £250,000 is other than a reasonable estimate of the amount of public money involved. In fact, I consider that that is a conservative estimate, particularly, when we take into account the use of government facilities, such as motor cars, tyres, petrol, and other equipment which could be ill-spared for such a purpose.

The Government should tell the people exactly how much public money was used to conduct its “ Yes “ campaign, and the Auditor-General should be asked to conduct a special investigation se that authentic information may be available as to how much money was spent and how it was spent.. Unless this be done, I fear that the whole sorry business will be cloaked over, and the amount of expenditure will never be known.

Mr Calwell:

– Would the honorable gentleman be willing for the AuditorGeneral to inquire into the expenditure of the Australian Constitutional League on the referendum?

Mr HARRISON:

– That subject was mentioned not long ago by the honorable member for Parkes (Mr. Haylen), and his observation brought a certain reply from the Minister for the Interior (Senator Collings), although that honorable gentleman must be well aware that such an organization is entitled to expend its money according to its own desires, so long as it keeps within the law.

Mr Calwell:

– The public would like to know.

Mr HARRISON:

– The expenditure of public money is in an entirely different category. Public expenditure involves public responsibility and public accountability. The Government has tried for too long to withhold this information. Before we took action, we waited to see what the Estimates- would reveal, and now the only conclusion the public can come to is that the Government has something to hide. The Government must produce its authority for the expenditure of this money. The allocation of public money for expenditure is the responsibility of Parliament, unless the Government proposes to ignore Parliament altogether. Members of, Parliament have certain rights in this matter which should not be disregarded. I warn Ministers that unless they can produce authority for this expenditure they are themselves personally responsible for it. I suggest that the Auditor-General might inquire into this matter in order to discover what authority the Government bad for its action. I believe that the Government has deliberately violated the Constitution, and has flagrantly disregarded the rights of Parliament by expending in a manner not authorized by Parlia ment public money subscribed by the people for war purposes. Therefore, I move - ‘

That the amount of the proposed vote - Department of Information - be reduced by fi as a direction to the Government - that the Committee disapproves of the expenditure of public moneys in the presentation of the case for a “ Yes “ vote at the recent referendum.

Mr CALWELL:
Minister for Information · Melbourne · ALP

. - Some months ago, the Treasurer (Mr. Chifley) said that the Government had decided to spend £50,000 of public money to enable the case for the referendum proposals to be put before the people. The Government had decided that the people were entitled to be enlightened as to why the Commonwealth Parliament needed fourteen additional powers. The purpose of the referendum was to enable the Parliament of the nation, no matter what government might be in power after the war, to ensure that those who had fought for their country would not return to unemployment and the dole. The amount which the Treasurer said would be spent was spent.

Mr Menzies:

– Where does it appear on the Estimates?

Mr Harrison:

– Does that total cover all of the departments, including the Department of Post-war Reconstruction?

Mr CALWELL:

As I have said previously, the Government, of which Mr. R. G. Casey was a member, indulged in an orgy of “ squandermania “, without the authority of Parliament, in trying to popularize his bogus and spurious national insurance proposals. I pause to remark that the discussion of those proposals in this Parliament provided the Leader of the Opposition with an opportunity for one of his famous get-aways. He resigned from the Lyons Government, because it would not put that scheme into operation, but when he became Prime Minister, he forgot all about it.

The case presented against the Government has no basis of fact or any historical precedents to support it. It is in keeping with the usual suspicion, distortion and misrepresentation which have characterized the conduct of the Opposition in every discussion on the budget proposals. The people of Australia will yet amend the Commonwealth Constitution, and they will need to do it if Australia is to survive as a nation. I make these two points : this is not a case of expenditure of government funds on a general election campaign; it is a case of the expenditure of government moneys so that an alteration of the Constitution approved by .both Houses of this Parliament might he presented to the people for their approval, which is necessary under the Constitution. If it is proper for State governments to expend money in opposing referendum proposals - and successive governments of Victoria have so expended it - it was legitimate for the National Government to do so in presenting its case. Other governments have expended public moneys in doing those things.

Now I come to the famous body known as the Australian Constitutional League, the paternity of which is unknown, and which functions behind closed doors. A great deal of its funds were supplied by the banks, both Britishowned and Australian-owned, and by the insurance companies, which are domiciled here and abroad. Those people thought that, foy defeating the referendum proposals,, they could defeat the Government ; and they desire to defeat it. There are two powers amongst the 39 placita, which the Commonwealth can exercise under section 51 of the Constitution, and those relate to banking and insurance. The Government still has two years or more to continue in office, and it still has ample time in which to give effect to its ideas on banking and insurance. That is the reason why the Bank of New South Wales, and other institutions, distributed circulars threatening the people in various ways as to what the effect of a “Yes” vote at the referendum would be. One gentleman named Martin Mcllwraith, of the Bank of New South Wales, on behalf of the Australian National Service League, sent a circular to thousands of people throughout the country, and bank money was used to pay for it - money that was made through the exploitation of the farming community, small home builders, and others. It is no wonder that, at every opportunity, honorable members opposite defend the banks, insurance companies and all the forces of predatory wealth that have battened on this country ever since it became a nation.

I desire now to refer to the Chambers of Manufactures and Chambers of Commerce that provided a large portion of

Ifr. Calwell. the slush funds used to defeat the referendum. Many manufacturers in Australia are half-educated. They make money in their specialty ; but outside their specialty they have not got a thought worth recording. Their discussions are not of the kind that would interest an educated person. These greedy and inefficient people, who are sheltering behind the tariff walls erected by Labour Governments, provided the funds to frustrate the endeavours of this Government to ensure that full-time employment shall be provided for the men who have fought for Australia. We do not want a repetition of the dole and unemployment. That there was unemployment before the outbreak of war, and that people were suffering undeserved misery and destitution, is a. fact that has penetrated even the cranium of the honorable member for Balaclava (Mr. White).

Mr White:

– The Minister said that the soldiers were economic conscripts, and now he is sorry for it.

Mr CALWELL:

– The honorable member is like a lot of other United Australia party supporters, including the Victorian president of the Returned Sailors, Soldiers and Airmen’s Imperial League of Australia. This gentleman is a tame cat for the Nationalist party, and with the assistance of a section of the press deliberately misrepresented my condemnation of a rotten economic system. I said that many men, no matter how brave and patriotic they were, had no alternative between enlisting and continuing to live under conditions of semistarvation.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN.Order! The Minister’s remarks are not relevant to the item under consideration.

Mr CALWELL:

– The honorable member for Balaclava will not want me to quote extracts from one of his speeches, but it has a bearing on the referendum campaign. The money in question was expended on a post-war educational campaign to enlighten the people of Australia, so that servicemen shall not return to unemployment and the dole after they have been demobilized.

On the 16th November, 1939, the honorable member said in this House-

I am able to quote figures of one militia unit that has supplied a considerable quota to the Second Australian Imperial Force.

I do not wish to give the exact figures in case I should get some one into trouble, but I can say that approximately half of the number who joined were unemployed, one-fourth of them were unskilled in any occupation, and the remainder were skilled workmen or nien following clerical occupations.

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:

– I do not believe that I would be an acceptable person to the High Court at the present time. It is wise to reconnoitre a position before one ventures. I shall say no more about that aspect.

Not one word that the Minister uttered during his lengthy and somewhat dreary speech had much bearing on this issue. This is a question of law, namely, whether the Government has a right to spend public moneys as it did. Even if the Government has the support of the law, it was not a moral tiling to introduce the principle that on any issue the. Government may say that it is necessary to expend money in the interests of post-war reconstruction. What in the name of common sense is that? Under that heading, the Government could justify almost anything in the code of political crime, if it wanted to do so. The Minister did not wait for the post-war period before he spent this money.

Mr Fadden:

– The Minister said that it was for post-war education.

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:

– Even the sum of £50,000 would not be sufficient to educate this Government in what is right and wrong in the expenditure of public money. All this money was spent before the end of the war. Furthermore, it was spent to put only one side of the case.

Mr Calwell:

– The national side.

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:

– There is an old saying that patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. The moment I hear “ patriotism “ or the “ national question” mentioned in regard to public expenditure, I begin to look for the nigger in the woodpile. This expenditure had no more to do with education in postwar problems than I have to do with the man in the moon. All this money was spent for one purpose, namely, to get the people of Australia to agree that a certain proposal, manoeuvred through both Houses of this Parliament, was a fit and proper alteration of the Constitution. It had no other purpose.

One of the things to which I object most strongly is the fact that so much of this money was spent on one-sided propaganda directed to the armed forces of Australia. If there had resided in the composite mind of the Government, for it has not a composite policy, any idea of justice and fair play, it would have said to the Opposition : “ We want you to put to the troops your answer to the affirmative case that we propose to make.” Let us examine some of the methods under which this money was spent. On the 9th August I was in Tailem Bend, a good Labour town, one of the two subdivisions in my constituency that did not give a majority for the “ No “ side. The other twenty divisions did. On the afternoon of the 9th August I was presented with copies of a most delectable circular letter. It purported to have been signed by the AttorneyGeneral (Dr. Evatt) and the Treasurer (Mr. Chifley). This blessed pamphlet was dated the 14th August, and I have yet to learn whether postage had been paid on it. It appeared to bear some kind of postmark.

Dr Evatt:

– It is included in the expenditure of £50,000.

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:

As in the metropolitan area G5 per cent, of the unemployed were between the ages of 40 and 60, the number of young unemployed in the whole of the metropolitan area would be less than 3,400, of whom at least 75 per cent, would be either unemployable owing ‘ to physical incapacity or at least not up to the standard of army enlistment. The number of potential army recruits from the ranks of the unemployed would be less than 1,000.

The total unemployed for Victoria of both sexes, it will be noted, were only 18,000. The paper commented -

These figures give the lie to Mr. Calwell that 2,000 men in hia electorate were forced by economic circumstances to enlist. The number of men in his district falling within the category, even if the category did exist, which is open to doubt, was negligible, probably not more than 50.

Now, when the Government is challenged for its infamous action in wasting the taxpayers’ money to delude the fighting forces and for other misleading statements, such as that child endowment and other social benefits might be lost to the community, in an endeavour to work up a fear complex amongst the people, the Minister tries to justify it under the heading, “ post-war education “. I say that the £49,000 has been greatly exceeded, because I have quoted only one item which is in excess of one of the big amounts that the Minister has given as being the cost of the Government’s propaganda literature. The Government has not only been condemned in regard to its referendum proposals by the vote of the people, but it is also condemned here to-day by its lame attempt at explanation of such tactics..

Mr HOLT:
Fawkner

.- The committee is discussing a matter of very great importance, and I am astonished that the Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin) is not present to indicate his attitude to what is a grave constitutional question. The constitutional principles and parliamentary practices which we have come to accept as part of our own tradition in this country have a long history. They are based on the experiences, sometimes very painful, of centuries of parliamentary administration in Great Britain.

– The Treasurer told us, on the last day of the session, but only after several determined but imsuccessful attempts had been made by the Opposition to ascertain the truth. Upon at least four previous occasions the Opposition pressed the Government to say whether it did intend to spend public moneys on the referendum campaign, but we could not get even an interjection from Ministers, until the AttorneyGeneral interjected -

Would tlie Leader of the Opposition support a law or regulation providing that each side should have equal time for broadcasting on B class stations as well as on A class stations?

Dr Evatt:

– The Treasurer stated the exact amount that it was proposed to spend.

Mr HOLT:

– Not on that occasion. I am referring to a debate at the end of March. The Treasurer gave the information on the 21st July. On the previous occasion the matter was first raised by the honorable member for Indi (Mr. McEwen). Subsequently it was raised on a small bill to give authority to the soldiers overseas to vote on the referendum. Three or four of us discussed the matter on that occasion, and were so disturbed by the reluctance or failure of the Government to give us a specific reply that on the motion for the adjournment on the 31st March the Leader of the Opposition himself raised the matter and pressed the Government for an answer, but still we could not get any indication of what was happening. Yet the Minister for Information (Mr. Calwell), who now sits at the table and talks about people coming here with clean hands, knew at that time what was going on. He knew the plans which had been made, the pamphlets which were in course of preparation, and the arrangements which were being made to take from the publicity agencies of the Commonwealth, almost by force, on the threat that the men concerned would be man-powered if they did not come, their advertising experts to help the Government in its “ Yes “ campaign. The Treasurer did mention an amount, but that represents only a fractional part of the total amount of public money spent without authority in the campaign, because to-day we have heard of just one letter which, according to the information supplied by the Government to the honorable member for Balaclava (Mr. White), involved a total cost of £15,000. But I see the same significant omissions even from that calculation. We are informed that there were 1,600,000 of those letters and the same number of envelopes. The Government has made no reference to the labour which went into the folding of the letters, their sealing in the envelopes and their posting. At a time when the country is desperately short of manpower - in this instance it would be woman-power - we find that people have been diverted to the task of folding and posting almost 1,750,000 of these letters in order to assist the Government’s campaign. If we looked through all the departments and added up the cost of using government offices and transport facilities, and issuing pamphlets and other publicity, we should, arrive at a very much greater sum than the Government has admitted. Then the Minister for Information has the effrontery to tell the committee that the amount is set aside for a post-war educational campaign. We can assume that the actual cost of the labour put into the preparation and circulation of the letter which has been mentioned to-day is almost £25,000. We are not told whether that had to come from the £50,000 mentioned by the Treasurer. How does the letter aid the post-war educational campaign of the Commonwealth ? It certainly gives the people elementary tuition in civics. It sets out the handsome Commonwealth crest, and it tells the public that the Treaturer (Mr. Chifley) is Minister for Postwar Reconstruction and that Dr. Evatt is Attorney-General and Minister for External Affairs. It might also be suggested that it gives the people an indication of the literary and caligraphic styles of: those two honorable gentlemen, but in the case of the Attorney-General there appears to be a doubt whether this is a true facsimile of his signature, whilst the subject-matter could not by the wildest, stretch of the imagination be dragged under the heading of post-war education. The Government which handles public money in this way, and attempts under this disingenuous heading to convince the committee that this is the proper way to show the expendi ture, is treating Parliament with contempt, and ignoring the rights of the people. Its action calls for the utmost condemnation of the committee and the country, and the Prime Minister should be here to defend an action which, on the face of it, is utterly unjustifiable.

Mr MENZIES:
Leader of the Opposition · Kooyong

– I did not know until I heard by interjection a few moments ago that the Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin) was indisposed. I have been waiting to participate in this debate until the right honorable gentleman was present. It is, of course, unfortunate if his physical condition does not permit him to be here, but I cannot help remembering that in an equally important debate yesterday he left the chamber after the opening speech had been in progress for ten minutes.

Mr Calwell:

– He showed his contempt for the right honorable gentleman.

Mr MENZIES:

Mr WARD:

– I am glad to hear that. In the circumstances, it would have been proper for the honorable member to complain of the misleading and lying propaganda issued by his own side during the campaign. I make no apologies for the action of the Government in using £50,000 of Commonwealth revenue, in order to explain to the people exactly what the referendum proposals meant. All I am sorry for is that the appeal was unsuccessful, and it failed because wealthy interests were able to shovel out more money than were those who supported the “ Yes “ case.

The honorable member for Barker (Mr. Archie Cameron) said that the decision to hold the referendum was not a decision of Parliament. Surely, he will not deny that the second reading was agreed to in this Parliament by 55 votes to 10. It was the decision of Parliament that the referendum was to be held, and Parliament believed that it had itself approved of the proposals. If it did not approve of them, why was the referendum held? It is obvious that a very large majority of the Parliament wanted the referendum proposals to be carried. Perhaps the Leader of the Australian Country party (Mr. Fadden) can explain why he and his supporters somersaulted after having approved of the proposals.

The Leader of the Opposition has conveyed a wrong impression regarding what happened before the royal commission presided over by Mr. Justice Halse Rogers. It is true that the then Prime Minister - the present Leader of the Australian Country party - and the then Attorney-General (Mr. Hughes) gave evidence before the commissioner, and the matter was adjourned for a week so that they could engage counsel. On page 13 of the commission’s report the following appears: -

To me it has been a most unpleasant task. This case is the worst I have ever struck. To me the principle of making a scapegoat of any one is absolutely abhorrent. In the transaction which has been under investigation many persons have taken a more or less prominent part. If the transaction which has been carried out is discreditable, I. think that all concerned should bear some share of the discredit. … I suggested that these gentlemen might wish to be represented before the commission. Thereafter, Mr. Dovey, K.C., and Dr. Louat obtained permission to appear on behalf of Mr. Hughes and Mr. Spender, K.C., and Mr. Barwick to appear for Mr. Fadden.

An adjournment was granted for these counsel to have time to consider the evidence.

It was obvious from the conflicting evidence of the then Attorney-General and the Acting Prime Minister that they could not both be right, and that one was committing perjury. Honorable members opposite, when they feel like slinging mud at the Government, ought to remember that they have a very discreditable past. “We welcome an open inquiry into the referendum expenditure. The Treasurer stated how much was to be spent, and the figures which show how the money was spent will be published in Hansard. Members of the Opposition complain that the money was spent for Labour party purposes, but I deny that. Even the honorable member for Corangamite (Mr. McDonald) supports me in this by his reference to some of the queer people whom he saw supporting the “ Yes “ case. As a matter of fact, when I saw some of them, I had myself to look around to make sure that I was on the right side. Therefore, how can honorable members claim that the issue was decided on party lines, when even they were compelled to remark upon the strange bed-fellows whom the campaign had made? I do not know what their motives were in supporting the referendum proposals, but I do know that if an affirmative decision had been given it would have been in the best interests of the country.

TheGovernment has nothing to hide. I only hope that very soon we shall be able to approach the people again, and put our case in such a manner that there will be no doubt of the result. Honor able members opposite had no reason to be afraid of the effect of the pamphlets which were issued. Their importance has been much over-estimated. However, the “ Yes “ case was so unanswerable that wherever it could be stated in an effective manner an affirmative vote was secured. Had we had the time, and enough workers to speak to the people, there would have been no doubt of the result; but, because the Opposition parties had unlimited funds and could buy up practically all the time on the radio stations, because they were able to insert extravagant advertisements in the press, and were able to pay poisonous speakers, the people became confused. However, 46 per cent, of the people voted for the Government’s proposals. Sooner or later, the others will realize the mistake they made, and, I am sure, the result will be different next time.

Mr FADDEN:
Darling DownsLeader of the Australian Country party

– The observations of the Attorney-General (Dr. Evatt) were of such a nature that they cannot be allowed to go unanswered. He went to considerable pains to point out that section 128 of the Constitution provided the only method whereby the Constitution could be altered. He said that, obviously, once the Parliament decided to put before the people a proposal for the alteration of the Constitution, it became a parliamentary recommendation. With all respect to the right honorable gentleman, I submit that that is not so. Section 6 of the Constitution Alteration Act, which has not been amended, provides -

If within four weeks after the passage of the proposed law throughboth Houses there is forwarded to the Chief Electoral Officer-
1. an argument in favour of the proposed law, consisting of not more than two thousand words, and authorized by a majority of those members of both Houses of the Parliament who voted for the proposed law and desire to forward such an argument; or
2. an argument against the. proposed law, consisting of not more than two thousand words, and authorized by a majority of those members of both Houses of the Parlia ment who voted against the proposed law, and desire to forward such an argument, the Chief Electoral Officer shall, within two months after the expiry of those four weeks, and not later than two weeks after the issue of the writ, cause to be printed and posted to each elector,’ as nearly as practicable,a pamphlet containing the arguments together with a statement showing the textual alterations and additions proposed to be made to the Constitution.

It is obvious that the responsibility rests on the electoral officer to provide the means whereby the arguments for and against tie proposals may be forwarded to every elector entitled to vote. There is no other method whereby public moneys can be expended in connexion with the presentation of the proposals. Apart from whether the present methods of communication and ways of carrying out elections are adequate or otherwise, the Constitution has not been amended in respect of the only provision that gives legal authority for the expenditure of public moneys in order that the case for and against an alteration of the Constitution may be put to the people. Let us trace the constitutional requirements with regard to the expenditure of public moneys. Section 81 of the Constitution provides -

All revenues or moneys raised or received by the Executive Government of the Commonwealth shall form one consolidated revenue fund, to be appropriated for the purposes of the Commonwealth in the manner and subject to the charges and liabilities imposed by the Constitution.

That is the only constitutional authority under which this expenditure of about £50,000 could be made. I am sure that the Attorney-General (Dr. Evatt) would agree with me on that point. It is strange, and worthy of note, that section 81 is the very constitutional provision under which ‘child endowment has been paid, and will continue to be paid. In order to frighten them, particularly the mothers, the people were told that child endowment would be in jeopardy if a “ No “ vote were recorded. Section83 of the Constitution states, inter alia -

No money shall be drawn from the Treasury of the Commonwealth except under appropriation made by law.

The fact is quite clear that ah appropriation has not been made by law, consistent with section S3. Section 32. of the Audit Act provides -

1 ) The Treasurer shall as often as occasion may require calculate the amount of money likely to become due and payable out of the Commonwealth Public Account during a period of not more than three months, and shall thereupon prepare an instrument in the form contained in the Second Schedule to this Act or to the like effect and shall set forth therein the said amount classifying and arranging it (if for the public service) under the same divisions and subdivisions that shall have been employed in the appropriation thereof, or stating’ (if not for the public service) the purpose for which it is payable, and after having signed such instrument shall transmit the same t»:> the Auditor-General for his countersignature.
Before countersigning any such instrument as aforesaid the Auditor-General shall ascertain that the sums therein mentioned are legally available for and applicable to the services or purposes mentioned in such instrument; and after countersigning such instrument shall return the same to the Treasurer who shall thereupon submit it to the GovernorGeneral for his approval and signature.
In case the Auditor-General finds that the sums therein mentioned or any of them are not legally available for or applicable to the services or purposes therein set forth, he shall return the said instrument to the Treasurer attaching thereto a paper setting forth in writing the sum or sums not found by him to be legally available or applicable as aforesaid and the grounds on which he withholds his signature.
Such instrument when countersigned by the Auditor-General and approved and signed by the Governor-General, but not otherwise shall be the warrant for the issue of the drafts and cheques hereinafter mentioned.

A definite responsibility rests on the Auditor-General in connexion with that matter. The Parliament will require a certificate by him, which I have little doubt will be forthcoming; but I hope that it will not be in the qualified form to which we are becoming accustomed. In the 20th annual report of the National Debt Commission this was the certificate attached by the AuditorGeneral

Mr Calwell:

– “What has that to do with the matter before the committee?

Mr FADDEN:

– I submit that my remarks are absolutely relevant. I hope that the certificate of the Auditor-General will not be in the same qualified form as it was regarding the 20th and 21st annual reports of the National Debt Commission. In the 20th report of that body the Auditor-General reported as follows : -

The transactions of the National Debt Sinking Fund, as set out in this report, and in the tables referred to in paragraph 28, have been examined, and are certified to be correct, subject to the opinions of counsel referred to in paragraph 13 of the report.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr Barnard:
BASS, TASMANIA

– The right honorable gentleman should confine his remarks more closely to the item under consideration.

Mr FADDEN:

– The certificate attached to the 21st report of the National Debt Commission reads as follows : -

The transactions of the, National Debt Sinking Fund, as get out in the tables referred to in paragraph 28 of the report, have been examined and are certified to be correct, subject to validation of the contributions referred to in paragraphs 11 to 17 of the report.

The responsibility rests on the AuditorGeneral to give a proper certificate regarding public moneys expended on a referendum campaign. Honorable members could hardly be expected to recognize that expenditure of £45,750, designated as being for a post-war educational campaign, had been incurred on the referendum campaign. Nor can we be expected to believe that that is the total sum expended in support of a “ Yes “ vote having regard to the evidence available to us up to the 19th August last. Let us analyse the position. As is his habit, the Minister for Information attempted to make bricks without straw. He has unsuccessfully essayed that feat on two occasions this week. Perhaps next week he will perform the ‘hat trick”.

Mr Calwell:

– I shall bowl out the Opposition.

Mr FADDEN:

– The Minister is an effective body-line bowler, particularly on a sticky, dirty wicket. He expects us to believe that for 1944-45 the sum of £45,750 has been voted for a post-war educational campaign. He stated also that the cost of the referendum campaign was £50,000. I am convinced that the sum of £45,750 has already been exhausted in advocating a “ Yes “ vote. c

Mr Calwell:

– When the Government holds another referendum, it will vote more money to that fund.

Mr FADDEN:

– I have a shrewd idea that the item “Publicity material and services, £45,600 “ also requires scrutiny, and no doubt the Auditor-General will carefully examine it. In addition, an item of £120,000 under “Miscellaneous services, Department of the Interior “ must be analysed. Plainly, the Government has not taken honorable members into its confidence in this matter. There has been an undue expenditure of public money. The Government did not adopt an impartial attitude in the presentation of the case for and against the referendum. The Attorney-General declared that, in order to carry out the requirements of section 128 of the Constitution, the Government was reluctantly obliged to conduct the “Yes” campaign as vigorously as possible.

The Minister for Transport (Mr. Ward) recalled that the Australian Country party, after voting for the second reading, opposed the third reading o? the bill. The explanation is that the party voted for the second reading because it has always believed in constitutional reform. By supporting the second reading, we hoped to induce the Government to accept amendments in committee, and to agree to put each of the fourteen questions separately to the Australian people. For that reason, the Australian Country party voted unanimously for the amendments submitted by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Menzies,). But when the AttorneyGeneral turned a deaf ear to our representations, we opposed the third reading. Any person with a knowledge of parliamentary procedure will recognize that the Australian Country party adopted an attitude consistent with its policy and principles. We have had to wade up to the knees through dirt and muck to combat the wild accusations of the Minister for Information and his pal, the Minister for Transport.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr Barnard:

– Order ! I ask the right honorable gentleman to modify his language.

Mr FADDEN:

– One cannot hope to match those experts in gutter tactics on their own ground. They declared that a royal commission was appointed to investigate a part of my administration. When the allegations regarding a secret fund were first made, I manfully recommended the appointment of a royal commission and manfully attended its sittings. How differently the Minister for Transport acted when a royal commission was appointed to inquire into his allegation on “ the Brisbane line “ ! The charges made by the two Ministers are not endorsed by their leader, the Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin). The secret fund was no novelty. The report of the royal commissioner stated that the . fund had been in existence for twenty years, and I point out that it was used by a former Labour Prime Minister, Mr. Scullin, and a former Labour Attorney-General, Mr. Brennan. The purposes of the fund were quite legitimate. Similar funds are used by all democratic governments who have some regard for internal security. I believe that the fund was necessary, and, in similar circumstances, I would use it again to combat the cancerous growth of communism which was evident in 1941, and which has since assumed dangerous proportions. Industrial turmoil has been rife on the coal-fields-

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN:

– Order ! I have permitted the right honorable gentleman a certain degree of latitude, because previous speakers referred to the secret fund, but I am unable to allow him further licence in that regard.

Mr FADDEN:

– Honorable members have been discussing the misuse by the Government of public funds, and the Minister for Information and the Minister for Transport referred to a secret fund of £300, which was used to combat communism in 1941. They made certain charges against me, and I contend that I should be permitted to defend myself.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN.The right honorable gentleman would not foe in order in discussing the position on the coal-fields at this juncture.

Mr FADDEN:

– The two Ministers made a bitter attack on me, and in justice, I should be permitted to defend myself. The Chair should allow me to refer to the findings of the royal commissioner who inquired into the secret fund, because an attempt has been made to besmirch my name. The royal commissioner reported -

For the reasons given I am driven to the conclusion that I should find that moneys in question were paid out of the account established in the name of the Australian Democratic Front hy Mr. Watson, under the instructions of the Attorney-General, Mr. Hughes, wi th the approbation of the Acting Prime Minister, Mr. Fadden; that the moneys were paid out through Mr. Winkler to Mr. Nelson in accordance with the instructions of the Acting Prime Minister; that the purpose for which the moneys were paid was that indicated in the receipts and in the letter from Mr. Watson to Sir George Knowles already referred to, that is to say that it had relation to the promise of the executive officers in the coal industry that there would he freedom from further strikes in the coal industry during the -war and that it -was meant for a campaign in support of the declaration of Mr. Nelson and Mr. Kellock.

Mr BURKE:
Perth

– I would not have participated in this discussion but for the emotional outburst of the honorable member for Corangamite (Mr. McDonald), who whipped himself into a frenzy in his attempt to prove that the Government disseminated scare propaganda in support of the “ Yes “ case during the referendum, campaign. I shall prove that that charge can more appropriately be made in respect of the propaganda issued by those honorable members opposite who advocated a “ No “ vote. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Menzies) used noble words and expressed high ideals in this debate, but his virtuous pose is in strange contrast to the propaganda which his visit to Western Australia during the campaign set in train in that State. Prior to his visit, the campaign in respect of both sides had been conducted, in Western Australia, on a reasonably decent plane; but following the visit of the right honorable gentleman, the propaganda for the “ No “ case sank to the level of the gutter. The right honorable gentleman cannot be exonerated in that respect. On each occasion when he has sought the suffrages of the people, 07* addressed honorable members in this chamber while in opposition, he has posed as the champion of the liberties of the people. His name might go down in history as worthy of that distinction, but for his record as the leader of a govern ment and his association with other governments in this Parliament.

The proposals submitted to the people by the Government at the referendum were considered, and agreed to at a convention held at Canberra, at which the leaders of the Opposition parties in this chamber and the leaders of the Government and Opposition parties in each of the State Parliaments were present. At that convention, all parties agreed, not upon this or that power, individually, but upon the Government’s fourteen proposals en bloc. They agreed that all fourteen powers should be transferred by the State Parliaments to the Commonwealth. At that time, the Leader of the Opposition and the Leader of the Country party did not voice any fears that the transfer of these powers to the Commonwealth would endanger the liberties of the people, or that any of the powers might be used by the Government to impose industrial conscription. But they raised that cry during the referendum campaign. If they were sincere in doing so, it was their bounden duty to tell the people of their fears at the time of the Canberra convention in order to ensure that the State Parliaments would reject those proposals. The “ No “ propaganda during the referendum campaign was of the vilest character. It was designed to arouse fear in the minds of the people that their liberties would be endangered if the powers sought were granted to the ‘Commonwealth Parliament. The advocates of the “ No “ case went so far as to tell the women of Western Australia that under these powers, the Commonwealth would take their children from -them on reaching the age of fourteen years and send them to the far north, or the eastern States, or anywhere the Government desired. They were told that their husbands would have no choice as to where they might live or work, and that their homes would be broken up. That propaganda had the endorsement of the Opposition parties in this Parliament, although they agreed at the Canberra convention that the powers sought were essential to the Commonwealth. Parliament to enable it to deal effectively with post-war problems. That being so, it was the bounden duty of the Government to give effect to the decisions of the convention in order to justify the trust reposed in it by the people. Much has been said concerning the expenditure incurred by the Government in presenting the cases “ for “ and “ against “ the referendum proposals. Surely, honorable members opposite will not deny that the amount of that expenditure must be determined largely by the volume of publicity required to make the issues clear to the people. Unfortunately, too many of our people do not understand the distribution of legislative powers as between the States and the Commonwealth. The Opposition, in this debate, has not made out a case for the Government to answer. Had the Government, particularly in view of the agreement arrived at by leaders of all political parties at the Canberra convention, failed to do its utmost to secure the adoption of the referendum proposals, it would have proved itself unworthy of the trust reposed in it by the people.

Sir EARLE PAGE:
Cowper

.- Constitutional reform touches the most sacred rights of the people and the procedure for amending the constitution is, in fact, the only way in which the people can directly influence legislation in this country. It has always been the custom to consider proposals for constitutional reform in the most detached and impartial way. Unfortunately, here to-day this question, which is of such a sacred nature, has been finally dragged down to the depths of party politics and infamy by the explanation given by the Minister for Information. The expenditure has been cleverly concealed in the item of “Postwar educational campaign “. All my life my calling has made me relate cause to effect. As every one knows, I have been some 25 years in this Parliament, handling and examining budgets and parliamentary papers, but I must confess that I would never have detected that this simple item at this particular place in the Estimates concealed the expenditure on the referendum campaign. It was shameful that the Treasurer was not allowed to put in its right place in the Estimates, so that everybody could see exactly where it was, a statement of expenditure of which apparently he himself was not ashamed, because he mentioned the amount in answer to a question. Sus picion must immediately arise because of the evident desire of the Government to hide the expenditure. The attempt by the Government, on every occasion during the last 24 hours on which an effort was made to debate this matter, to push it farther and farther back, hoping that it would not be discussed until the early hours of the morning, when little publicity would be given to it, shows how dangerous the Government considers the subject to be. The whole matter has always been confused by some alibi or alias. When the case was put before the people, and the subject was mentioned to the Prime Minister, he replied casually that the referendum was the Attorney-General’s “baby” and not his. It was also significant that, when the “Yes” case was sent out to each householder, it did not bear the signatures of the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister, the two men who are in charge of the Government, but was signed only by the Treasurer and the Attorney-General. That was quite in keeping with the attempt to hide the real facts in the Estimates, and with the advertisements that were put by the Government before the people. Just as much as I object to the Government using public money for this party purpose, I object to the use of the Government’s name in those advertisements. It was a degradation of the Commonwealth to use the name of the Government as authority for a series of advertisements which the march of events has proved to be a tissue of lies. One of the most infamous appealed to mothers to vote “ Yes “ to keep their child endowment. According to the print, it was “ Authorized by the Government of the Commonwealth of Australia “, and beneath were the words, “ Worker Print - 40-hour week”. That completely destroys the alibi which Ministers apposite were trying to establish at that stage, namely, that the advertising campaign of which that leaflet was ‘a part was being paid for and carried out, not by the Government of Australia, but by the Labour party direct. The people were told by lying propaganda, signed by the Government, and distributed all over the world, that houses could not be obtained in Australia, and that we could not pay child endowment, maternity bonuses or subsidies to primary production unless the referendum proposals were carried. What could damage immigration more than that sort of stuff? What happened after the referendum proposals were defeated? It was announced on the Saturday night that the majority for “No” would be between 300,000 and 4.00,000, and on the Monday the Conference of Commonwealth and State Ministers decided on an £80,000,000 housing programme straight away. The people were told that the Commonwealth could not pay subsidies without the extra powers, yet in the very Estimates which wi- are now discussing there is provision for between £15,000,000 and £20,000,000 to be expended on subsidies. The people were told that the Government would not bo able to pay child endowment, or provide free medicines or hospital endowment, yet in the Treasurer’s speech, after the “No “ vote had gained such a sweeping majority, he announced the provision of ‘£24,000,000 for social services which, in the lying statement sent out over his name in the campaign, it was stated that he had no constitutional power to do. This is the most scandalous thing the world has ever seen. Never have I seen this country subjected to such degradation or infamy as characterized the Government propaganda, which the march of events has proved to be absolutely untrue. When I look back to the way in which referendum proposals used to be handled by all the parties in the House, I conclude that the standard of parliamentary conduct has been degraded. Although parties differed at the beginning, on every occasion on which Mr. Bruce and I brought questions of constitutional reform before Parliament, we were able finally to carry them through both Houses without any violent difference of opinion. The right honorable member for Yarra (Mr. Scullin) had definite views on the Loan Council and the financial agreement, but at the last stage, when the matter had been fully discussed and settled by a majority on the second reading, he joined with the rest of the Labour party in the House - with the exception of three members, of whom Mr. Anstey was one - in helping to pass the bill and send it to the people for their decision. When it went to the Senate, where the Labour party was represented, is was carried unanimously. The same thing happened in 1926 in the case of the referendum dealing with increased industrial powers and other matters. We were able in this chamber, by reasoned argument in the committee stages of the bill, so to modify its clauses that the final vote was 63 to 2. That minority of two consisted of a member of the Country party and a member of the United Australia party. In the Senate there was no dissentient voice. In regard to this referendum expenditure, the AttorneyGeneral has argued that because Parliament passed the bill the Government i.= entitled to use the public purse to support its proposals in the appeal to the people. That is an absolutely wrong and immoral policy. In “our referendums the only money spent was in accordance with the Referendum (Constitution Alteration) Act, which provided that an equal amount must be spent on the “ Yes “ and “ No “ cases. In 1928 the referendum was based on the passage of the bill not only through both Houses of the Commonwealth Parliament, but also through all the State parliaments. We did not use public money to push through the appeal to the people. We said that if we were to use money to put the Government’s own view the first thing we should do was to amend the act. which provided for an equal presentation of the two cases. That act has not been amended, but only one side was put before our fighting men, who are more entitled than any one else to the fullest possible information. That is the most scandalous part of the whole business. Men who are to live in this country afterwards, and are away fighting to save it, were not given the same opportunity of being informed as we civilians were. One of the main reasons why the Government’s proposals were turned clown was the deepseated feeling throughout Australia that our fighting men were not being treated fairly, because they were not being given the chance to examine every aspect of the proposals. Therefore

I associate myself with the condemnation of the Government in regard to this matter. I can see very little difference between using public money in this manner, and using it to support the campaign of the Government party at an election. It is a fraud upon the people. I have fought hard for constitutional reform in this country. When the Constitution alteration measure was before the House, I supported the motion for the second reading in the hope that the Government would agree to certain amendments. I drew attention to certain defects in the Government’s proposals when they were being discussed at the Constitution Convention. In the referendum campaign I did not find it necessary to travel around the country enlisting the assistance of multi-millionaires, whose presence on the Labour party’s side was very evident; I spoke over the air on a few occasions only, and addressed four other meetings. All I had to do was to put into serial form the statements made by the Attorney-General (Dr. Evatt) in regard to constitutional reform. That apparently satisfied the people, and their decision was clear. In Queensland and Tasmania not one electorate voted “ Yes “, and in New South Wales, many seats which during the last election campaign had been notable for substantial Labour majorities, had only a small margin in support of the referendum proposals-. The manner in which the Government tackled the referendum served only to harm the cause of constitutional reform. I am convinced df the need for some constitutional change. I favour not only an alteration of the Commonwealth’s powers, but also a reallocation of territorial boundaries and consequently an increase of the membership of this Parliament to enable it more thoroughly to tackle national problems. I remind honorable members that when the Constitution alteration measure was at the committee stage in this chamber, despite the fact that members of the Australian Country party left the chamber at one stage as a protest against the manner in which they were being treated, they returned and endeavoured once more to have their amendments incorporated in the measure - amendments which the

Attorney-General himself, had declared in this Parliament to be indispensable to organized marketing.

Mr MORGAN:
Reid

.- The arguments that have been raised by honorable members opposite in support of their charges against the Government for alleged misuse of public funds constitute the most blatant political humbug and chicanery that I have ever heard. The Opposition has put up a smoke screen in an attempt to cover its own misdeeds in the referendum campaign, and those of the individuals whom they represent in this Parliament. Their action is like that of a certain animal which leaves a repelling odour behind it when it runs for cover.

The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Menzies) said that he criticized the Government not on legal grounds, but on moral grounds. He admitted that the Government’s actions were quite legal.

Mr Menzies:

– That is not quite right. I said that the Government could put the matter right, not that it had put it right. In other words that Parliament could appropriate the money now; but that has not yet been done.

Mr MORGAN:

– That is so. The Government has a majority in both Houses, and the expenditure will be passed by both Houses. I submit that the Government’s action on this occasion was in keeping with the precedent established at previous referendums in which government money, had been used to place both the “ No “ and “ Yes “ cases before the electors. On the other hand, however, the actions of certain individuals who opposed the granting of additional powers to the Commonwealth were not only immoral, but also illegal. Hundreds of thousands of pounds was spent on the “ No “ campaign, and some of this money at least was the property of company shareholders and was spent without the knowledge or consent of those shareholders. That is contrary to the law of this country. I remind honorable members that when the Pacific war crisis was at its height and we were threatened with invasion the “ fourteen points “ for constitutional reform set out by the Commonwealth Government were approved by the Premiers and Leaders of the Opposition of all the States, and by the Leader of the Opposition in this Parliament. They were regarded as the minimum powers required for post-war reconstruction. However, when the whips cracked, and the vested interests brought pressure to bear the attitude of the nonLabour parties changed. The reason for that is obvious. It was apparent to the “ No “ advocates that a refusal to grant to the Commonwealth the additional powers sought would mean the sweeping away of price fixing regulations, thus leaving the people of this country open to exploitation at the hands of profiteers and black marketers. It was realized also that because of the very limited interpretation placed by the High Court upon the powers of the Commonwealth to carry on industry in peace-time the defeat of: the referendum would force the sale to private enterprise of munition factories and annexes erected at the cost of many millions of pounds of the people’s money. On the other hand, the Government was quite open in presenting the “Yes” case, and there has been no failure to disclose the amount of money that has been expended in support of that campaign. Whilst we have been unable to ascertain the total amount of money which was expended by the “ No “ supporters, we do know that hundreds of thousands of pounds was spent in an advertising campaign aimed at misleading the people and creating a fear in their minds as to what might happen to them if the additional powers were granted to the Commonwealth. We know also that thousands of people were paid by the “ No “ advocates for their services at the polling booths throughout the Commonwealth. I visited every polling booth in my electorate, and counted more than 200 ‘ paid workers for the “No” campaign. All the “ Yes “ supporters were voluntary. Some of the “ No “ workers hardly knew which side they were on. At Pitt Row, three young ladies arrived at the polling booth at 8 a.m., and spoke to our organizer. They said that they had been sent along to assist at the booth. He said : “ Are you working for the ‘Yes’ vote?”, and they said, “We suppose that is right.” After they had worked for two or three hours a gentleman came along and was surprised when he sa w these girls working at the “ Yes “ tables. He went inside the polling booth and returned with a policeman. He said that the girls had been engaged to work on the “ No “ side. Our organizer said that he was very sorry, and asked how much he owed for the girls’ services. That applied throughout the campaign. Workers were paid 25s. or 30s. a day to organize the “ No “ vote. Where did the money come from? It is time that the law was tightened up regarding the expenditure of the money of shareholders in public companies. It is quite unlawful for the shareholders’ money to be used on such purposes without prior notification and approval. The facts are kept from the shareholders at annual general meetings because, in the balancesheets, the expenditure is hidden under such headings as “ Advertising “. The Auditor-General scrutinizes the expenditure of the Government. Some authority should be established to scrutinize the expenditure of the funds of shareholders in public companies in order that the shareholders may be protected. At general elections, individual shareholders vote according to their inclinations, and it should not be left to the management to decide that their funds shall be expended to support the side against which many, if not most, of the shareholders will vote.

Question put -

That the amount proposed to be reduced (Mr. Harrison’s amendment) be so reduced.

The committee divided. (The Chairman - Mr.riordan.)

AYES: 11

NOES: 30

Majority . . . . 19

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Mr HAYLEN:
Parkes

– I take this opportunity to suggest to the Minister for Information (Mr. Calwell) that, with the growing strength of his department, he should consider the establishment of a national theatre in Australia. I attempted to make some remarks on this subject about fifteen hours ago; the drama which has since intervened substantiates my claim for the establishment of a national theatre. In dealing with the problems of reconstruction after the war, we must face up to the future of our artistic background. In saying that, I have no middle-class notions; I mean, merely, that we must try to understand the soul of Australia and find the best means of revealing it to the world. “When visiting Americans say to us, “ Where is your story ; where is the novel or the play that represents Australia ? “ we have to admit that, after 150 years of settlement, there is no book, play, or drama that tells that story. We cannot say, “ This book, or that play, embodies the spirit of Australia “. The reason is that the commercial entrepreneur conducts his business solely for profit, and not in order to develop the artistic tastes of the people. As the quickest way to establish a national theatre I submit the conclusions at which I have arrived. They are -

A. subvention from the Commonwealth Government, supplemented by the State governments, to create the fund ;
The building of national theatres by municipal authorities in the capital cities for the presentation of good plays;
The creation of an Australian school of drama in conjunction with these theatres to train both writers and actors. Thus we should have the theatres and the workshops to produce the plays for the theatre;
Travelling companies from the national theatre to visit rural areas - a mobile unit capable of out-of-door performances as well ;
Appoint a director of the national theatre and bring back our own Australian actors and actresses from overseas to help us create our own Australian theatre. Make our famous Australians the stock company of our national theatre;
The inclusion of drama as a part of adult education and a means of employing the leisure of our people.

The reason why there is no national theatre in this country is that we have not fully recognized the magnitude of our story. I can illustrate that point best by referring to the situation that arises out of the, war. The incredible bravery at Stalingrad could only be wrought by a people who knew the story of Russia. The revival of the Russian spirit came because Russia has its playhouse as a part of its national culture. The story of Stalingrad is the story of Russia. The magnificent war effort of the United States of America converted many divergent forces into a. mighty war machine in a few months after the blow fell at Pearl Harbour, because Americans knew their own story. England, too, has its tradi-i tions. Mr. “Winston Churchill is in the I Elizabethan tradition when he speaks in the language of Shakespeare: “Come the three corners of the world in arms and we shall shock them “. These people have tradition - what is called culture - a term which is sometimes greatly misunderstood in this country. My proposal does not involve heavy expenditure on the part of the Commonwealth. A Commonwealth grant, supplemented by the Slates, would enable us to create first, in our capital cities, theatres in which we could see classic drama, such as Shakespeare and successful Australian plays. We must have workshops, in which men and women can place before the people the plays that they have written, so that their defects can be noted and improvements made, until Australian playwriters become perfect in their art. When we have done that, we shall have done something of considerable importance to our future and the unification of our ideals. During this debate reference has been made to the need to bring immigrants to Australia. What shall we say to the people whom we wish to settle among us? There is no common language or common understanding to unite us. We know of the tragedy associated with immigration schemes in the past, because of lack of understanding and the absence of any unifying bond. We and the immigrants had no common meeting-ground. That meeting-ground must be found in the theatre and the playhouse. If, to a Commonwealth grant, is added money from the- States, and if the job of providing the theatres be left to the municipalities, we shall have a perfect set-up for a national’ theatre in Australia.

Later, the scheme could be extended to country districts. In other parts of the world national theatres are subsidized. Ever since the depression struck the United States of America the authorities there have seen that this form of entertainment and instruction has been made available to people in the American outback. In that country the theatre, with its high-ranking actors and actresses, is taken from . New York to country districts by means of mobile units; in the more inaccessible places buses are employed to bring the audience to the theatre. What would the people in country electorates in Australia think if an opportunity were provided for them to see a Shakespearean drama in their home town? How would the children of our parched outback feel if they could see the fairyland of opera and drama that is the privilege of city children to see in the theatres, but which those living in rural areas get only from story-books or radio plays? The successful establishment of a national theatre in this country is a big task, but many Australians aim to provide it. As Mr. Eugene Ormond y pointed out in relation to music, the main thing is that we shall obtain the services of a director of outstanding talent. He may be a British producer, or he may be an Australian; his nationality or his present place of residence matters little so long as he understands his job and can train and inspire us. The director would need to have great authority, and he would be able to bring back to Australia some talented Australians now in London and elsewhere, who are homesick and for whom a return to their native land in order to assist in establishing a national theatre would be the fulfilment of their brightest dreams. In other parts of the world there are many Australian scenario writers and dramatists, who having had no opportunity in Australia, have been forced to go abroad. Should my proposal find acceptance with the Government and a national theatre be established there will be a flood of artistic immigrants to Australia. That would be a good thing for this country. I commend this suggestion to the Minister for Information in the hope that something will be done along the lines that I have indicated.

Mr CALWELL:
Minister for Information · Melbourne · ALP

– I promise the honorable member that sympathetic consideration will be given to the scheme that he has outlined. I hope that the Department of Information will expand and take an ever-increasing interest in the development of the cultural life of the nation.

Proposed votes agreed to.

Ordered -

That the following proposed votes bo considered together: -

Miscellaneous services, £1,120,000.

Refunds of revenue, £5,000,000.

Advance to the Treasurer, £6,000,000.

War (1914-18) services, £1,082,000.

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:
Barker · ALP

– I direct attention to the unsatisfactory position that exists in regard to dental service at Alice Springs, a town that has 470 school children. The Army has clone quite a. lot of dental work for the civilian population, but on account of the shortage of staff, has been ordered to refrain from doing any more. There is only one dentist at Alice Springs, and he is not there the whole of the time. A while ago, he decided to absent himself for eight weeks, and selected the height of the cattle-trucking season. Many station employees can visit Alice Springs only once a year, when cattle are being taken there. They then expect to receive dental treatment. This year, such service could not be obtained for at least eight weeks. The situation is rather difficult, and I hope that the Department of Health will endeavour to rectify it.

I received by air mail to-day a letter from the owner of Kumundi station, in these terms : -

I know that you are interested in our affairs and problems, and I would now like to bring under your notice another case bearing on the natives, from a medical point.

We are still paying the aboriginal medical foes and apart from military medical officers, they get no attention at all.

When Dr. Catalano was stationed at Tennant Creek, he patrolled his district regularly each month and so prevented the spread of disease amongst the natives. The military officers and hospital staff do all they possibly can for the civilians but, as you know, these people have more than they can handle in their own department, therefore the natives, as far as medical treatment goes, arc neglected.

At the present time we have the second outbreak of yaws, a very contagious disease, on Kurundi and Frew River.

If the medical patrol still existed, this disease could have been prevented, as the first cases could have been treated early and the disease wiped out or checked. As it is now, they are taking the whole of my native staff toquarantine for six weeks and, in consequence, all work on these stations must cease. At the same time our federal Government is asking us to produce more beef. I may also add that I am running the risk of my own family contracting this rotten disease.

Having visited the Northern Territory on a couple of occasions, I realize the difficulties which confront the Army authorities. The native needs to be overhauled medically fairly regularly. Those who are called up for the assistance of the Services are looked after by Service medical personnel, but although the pastoralist is still obliged to pay aboriginal medical fees to the Government, his natives do not receive medical supervision in return, with the result that cases of the kind mentioned in the letter I have read are reported. The matter should : be investigated by the Department of Health.

Mr SCULLY:
Minister for Commerce and Agriculture · Gwydir · ALP

– Last night, the honorable member for New England (Mr. Abbott) strongly attacked my department and myself for alleged unsympathetic treatment of returned soldiers. He mentioned the case of Mr. Yeomans, of Guyra. The facts have been supplied to me by Mr. Foster, who is in charge of the Federal Potato Committee. He has advised that the application of Mr. Yeomans was refused for the sole reason that, as a matter of policy, it was decided not to admit any new applicants for registration as wholesale produce merchants. Mr. Yeomans was not in business on his own account in the year immediately prior to control. He had been in business as a country agent, buying from producers, but he relinquished this business before the war, and was employed by the Producers Distributing Society as its country representative at Guyra. The Producers Distributing Society wanted to transfer him to Sydney, but this did not suit him. He enlisted at about that time. Mr. Foster understands that arrangements can be made for his return to the Producers Distributing Society if he so wishes. As a general policy, we have had to lay down a. definite organization to receive and make payment for all potatoes, and to pay and check all subsidies. Additional agents are not required for that work. All persons who were in business in 1941, or the year prior to the introduction of control, were registered. New registrations are not accepted, obviously for the reason that, with the present fixed rates, we would be swamped by applications from persons who wanted to become agents. Mr. Foster has advised that absolute preference is given to returned soldiers wherever there are vacancies. in the other case, the honorable member used rather strong language in accusing my department of unwarranted delay. I advised him that, in future, when making an attack on the Government, he should be sure of his premises and should not lapse into the Rip Van Winkle role that he had adopted on this occasion. He referred to the case of C. T. Hill. The property known as Ingleburn, at Moore Greek, via Tamworth, is owned by Mr. Arthur Robert Hill. Mr: Charles Theodore Hill, brother of the owner, applied for a sharefanning licence, and this was issued to him on the 11th August, 1944. An area of 320 acres was sown to wheat this season. The share of the owner is 192 acres, and that of the share-farmer is 1 20 acres. As the owner, Mr. A. R. Hill, owns the plant that was used to sow the crop, lie was granted a quota of 1,800 bushels - three-fifths of a full quota - the calculation ‘being on the basis that his 192 acres was three-fifths of the total acreage sown. Similarly, Mr. C. T. Hill was granted a quota of 1,200 bushels, or two-fifths of a full quota. Taking into consideration the complexities of this case, which required that the application should be fully investigated and considered by the Wheat, Stabilization Board in Melbourne, it is obvious that most expeditious attention has been given to it. Not only has the share-farmer been licensed within a short time of his original application, but also the quota arrangements have been promptly decided and notified to the owner and share-farmer. Yet the honorable member for New England (Mr. Abbott) six weeks after the application had been granted., made a violent attack upon me and my department.

Mr Fadden:

– He was probably misinformed.

Mr SCULLY:

– Possibly, and I have no doubt that he will retract, but it was not quite playing the game to make an attack, which lasted for half an hour, upon wrong premises.

Mr FADDEN:
Leader of the Australian Country party · Darling Downs

– Can the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture (Mr. Scully) give the committee any information regarding the efforts of his department to control the buffalo-fly pest ? Recently, the honorable member for Richmond (Mr. Anthony) visited the northern dairying districts of Queensland, and afterwards prepared a report on the buffalo-fly. Unfortunately, too few people realize the extent of the danger, and how rapidly it is spreading. Recently, I went through the area between Townsville and Ingham, and was appalled to see the ravages among beef cattle, dry cattle and dairy herds. I should like to know whether the new preparation, DDT, which has been found very effective as a spray for some purposes, has been used against buffalo-fly. Various kinds of treatment have been evolved. First, there is the treatment for milking cows. They are driven through bag traps, which brush the flies off so that they may afterwards be destroyed. This is the most effective, but other and less effective methods have to be applied to the dry cattle and the beef cattle. I understand that the pest has now spread as far south as Claremont, and it is up in the northern part of York Peninsula.

Mr Scullin:

– Where did it first appear?

Mr FADDEN:

– It came into the Northern Territory from Java, and resembles the horn-fly of Argentina. I understand that it cannot live in the colder climates. ‘ It irritates the skin of cattle, making them rub themselves against obstructions, and I have seen the shoulders of cattle absolutely raw from rubbing. One has to see it to believe it. I know that the Minister has interested himself in the matter, and the honorable member for Richmond travelled extensively through the north at his own expense to make an investigation. I urge the Minister to take immediate action to deal with the pest.

Mr SCULLY:
Minister for Commerce and Agriculture · Gwydir · ALP

– A deputation, introduced by the honorable member for Richmond (Mr. Anthony) and attended by the Leader of the Australian Country party (Mr. Fadden), waited upon me in connexion with this pest, and since then we have been doing everything possible to cope with it. Much work has been done by the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, and with this aspect my colleague, the Minister for War Organization of Industry (Mr. Dedman), is more conversant than I am.

Mr DEDMAN:
Minister for War Organization of Industry and Minister in charge of the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research · Corio · ALP

, - The honorable member for Richmond (Mr. Anthony) has already made representations to me regarding the work being done in an effort to control the spread of buffalo-fly to the south. The fly came to the Northern Territory from Java, and there was a stage at which it would have been possible to confine it to the territory. There i3 a tract of country south of the Gulf of Carpentaria which it would have been very difficult for the fly to cross if proper measures had been taken to control the movements of cattle. However, the fly did cross that area, and finally reached tlie coast. It is now advancing south at a fairly rapid rate. The Council for Scientific and Industrial Research “has conducted investigations, and I have been advised that there is very little prospect of the pest being checked by biological control. The experts believe that it will continue to come south until it reaches areas where the climate is unsuitable for its existence. Several sprays have been tried, including DDT, but the council cannot yet say whether DDT will be entirely successful, or whether, if effective against the fly, it might not produce other undesirable effects. I assure the honorable member that the council is fully seised of the importance of the matter. A method has been devised for checking the pest in dairy herds by building covered races through which the cattle are driven. The flies are brushed off, trapped in the roof, and later destroyed. That can be done with cattle which are brought in regularly, but it is a different matter in the case of station cattle. Further investigations are being made)’ and if anything more is learned I shall advise the honorable member.

Mr CHAMBERS:
Adelaide

.- Dental services in the Northern Territory have been far from adequate for many years. For some time only one dentist has been stationed in the Alice Springs area. As the honorable member for Barker (Mr. Archie Cameron) has remarked, he has had to provide the sen-ice required, not only at Alice Springs, but also at Wauchope and Tennant Creek and in other localities. I ask the Government to bear in mind that Army dentists have been called upon to attend to the teeth of the civilian population as they travel from Alice Springs to Darwin. There are excellent mobile dental units, and I urge the Government to utilize their services in the post-war period, and retain some of them for the purpose of providing service to the people in the outback areas between the various stations. Perhaps the honorable member for Barker would agree with me that those units would be ideal for a community service in that area.

Mr Archie CAMERON:

– I should not like to express an opinion.

Mr CHAMBERS:

– They were doing good work in New Guinea, and particularly in the district between Larrimah and Darwin.

Sir EARLE PAGE:
Cowper

.- I draw the attention of the committee to the need for increasing the total production of food in Australia. Although the war in Europe may soon end, a heavy demand will arise during the next eighteen months for foodstuffs for the forces which will be engaged in the war in the Pacific region. We hope that those forces will be sufficiently large to bring the Pacific war to an early conclusion, but we should take steps to ensure that our food supply will be increased. I should be sorry if the United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration began operations in Australia before the war with Japan is concluded, because that would lead to a duplication of effort as regards food distribution. Many of our past difficulties have been due to the fact that food control has been duplicated. We should avoid the difficulties that arose in 1942, owing to the overlapping activities of the Departments’ of Supply and Shipping and Commerce and Agriculture. Food production must be stimulated to the highest degree, and the most certain way to do that would be for the Government to announce a longrange plan for the stabilization of prices for the man on the land at remunerative levels. If the Treasurer (Mr. Chifley) or the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture (Mr. Scully) made a statement about the future of the primary industries mostly affected, embodying a plan extending over a period of five or seven years, it would be of material assistance.

The estimates show that a vote of £650,000 is proposed for the purpose of stimulating wheat production, whilst the next proposed vote is £550,000 for the purpose of restricting production in Western Australia. It would be worthwhile to examine the position again in that State. If the farmers there who are being compensated on the basis of 12s. an acre remain out of production indefinitely, any plan forthe stabilization of the wheat industry may fail.

Mr Scully:

– The Government has already reduced that payment by16½ per cent.

Sir EARLE PAGE:

– Figures were supplied to me a month or two ago by the Minister, showing a material reduction of dairy products in Australia in the last four years. I have asked agricultural instructors in my electorate to examine the position and give me an impartial report as to the causes of that decline, and the methods which would be most likely to stimulate production. The questions submitted by the New South Wales Department of Agriculture, and the replies by a senior agricultural instructor in the North Coast district, and the chairman of a most important District War Agricultural Committee are as foll ows : -

Prick and Subsidy.

What effect has the payment of a subsidy of 3d. (later 3½d.) per pound had on production ?

Subsidy has not stepped up production. Farmers are still selling out.

What effect has tie above subsidy had in increasing or maintaining man-power in the industry?

Apparently no effect on maintaining man-power, two factors operating - (1) Fresh man-power cannot be induced to take up dairying as means of increasing man-power. (2) Not maintaining man-power as the old hands are suffering from fatigue.

What further effect on production and man-power do you anticipate the additional payment of a subsidy on “ non-flush “ period production will have?

Additional payments will help production but doubtful if it will assist in holding manpower.

What further effecton production and man-power do you anticipate the stabilization by subsidy of the equalization price will have?

May help - much of damage has been done by low price.

Would further increases in prices of butter-fat result in increased production?

Further price increase would make dairying attractive and bring farmers back to production.

To what extent have more remunerative prices for alternative types of production (e.g., potatoes and vegetables) interfered with dairy production ?

On Nambucca particularly dairying has given way to vegetables. Therehas been an increase in potatoes on Clarence but as vet I would not say that it was responsible for low dairy production.

Other price consideration which would result in increased production?

The dairy award has had the effect of reducing production not because such an award was unnecessary but it was not accompanied by a sufficient rise in price.

Mechanization (State and Federal).

To what extent could an increase in number and/or size of machinery pools increase production?

Production could be increased 100 per cent, with the use of machine pools provided price of fat is satisfactory.

To what extent are machinery pools replacing man-power requirements? Could they do more in this respect?

Yes, particularly on Clarence.

Is further extension of State machinery pools likely under the present conditions?

Yes, particularly on Clarence.

What influence would a government subsidy of 25 per cent, of cost of ploughing, harrowing, &c, have in extending the scope of the State mechanization scheme and in increasing production?

Would definitely extend scope of State mechanization scheme (re increase’ in productionsee foot-note to section 3).

If the subsidy was 50 per cent, of cost of ploughing, harrowing, &c, what influence would this have on production?

Naturally, double chance of the previous question.

What is the limit of increase in production possible if mechanization was used to the fullest possible extent?

Pig production, maize, cow feed, silage crops more than doubled.

Is present factory administration as efficient as possible?

factories in this area have had no opportunity to show efficiency as plants in many cases have not arrived from manufacturer.

Would personal payments be made to factory managers increase efficiency of mechanization scheme ?

In the Bellinger-Clarence areas managers arc handicapped by lack of machinery at present. With more equipment their work wouldbe increased and responsibility correspondingly greater; therefore, payment should be made to cover these men for their increased responsibilities.

Are operators satisfactory? Would increase in wages and/or training increase efficiency of plants?

So far operators are satisfactory. They should receive a fair and just wage with a percentage or bonus on work performed.

To what extent would availability under mechanization of silage-making machinery (maize planters and hinders) increase silage conserved?

Silage-making machinery such as binder and automatic loading gear and transport to the silo would do much to help silage production. The labour factor in cutting, loading and carting to silo is the retarding one in silage-making.

To what extent would availability under mechanization of hay-making machinery (hinders pick-up hay balers, &c.) increase hay conserved ?

Use of baling machinery should help in conserving hay on Clarence. Areas are numerous and small but with availability of pick-up baler, greater areas could be sown.

Other factors which would increase efficiency of the present mechanization scheme?

. Speeding up of release of new machinery and spare parts for existing machines.

Other factors which would lead to an extension of the mechanization scheme?

Availability of skilled operators.

Indicate ways other than through government mechanization schemes in which machinery could be used to increase production ?

Release of machinery to farmers and contractors.

Subsidies on Fodder.

To what extent do present subsidies on wheat, barley, oats and grain sorghums assist production?

Subsidy on wheat does assist in pig production, but difficulty is lack of crushing machinery. Barley, oats, and grain sorghums not to any great extent.

Would availability of the above at further reducedprices further appreciably increase production?

Reduction on wheat would increase poultry, pig, and dairy production.

Would subsidizing farmers on a per acre basis for fodder crops and pastures sown or on a weight basis for fodder conserved appreciably increase production?

Better that a subsidy for this purpose be available through farm mechanization scheme as most farmers lack man-power.

Would a given sum of money made available as under the previous question result in more or less production as compared with a subsidy paid on butter-fat production alone?

I do not consider subsidy on the previous question would give same production as subsidy on butter-fat production.

Otherforms of subsidy which would increase production ?

Increased cultivation and green feeds for dairy stock and increased silage production means more labour in hand feeding and in increasing fodders other than pastures, this labour factor must not be lost sight of.

Labour.

Is there a labour shortage? If so how important is this in restricting production?
There is in this area a definite shortage of labour.
To what extent is labour shortage (if any) due to quality rather than quantity of labour?
The quantity of labour is short. The quality is in the main past its prime.
To what extent is advancing age of men employed responsible for labour shortage?
Advancing age is responsible for lower production. The older men cannot carry on and are breaking up with fatigue and are cither cutting down herds still further or are selling out.
Indicate whether types of man-power being supplied by the Man Power Directorate are acceptable? If not, why?
. Man-power cannot supply labour and where Army releases are concerned farmers want their own sons whom they have trained themselves and know their capabilities.
Are farmers refusing to accept the labour offering ? If this is not the most efficient is their refusal justified?

A. (a) Labour is not offering. (b) How does a farmer know the capabilities of labour that maybe offered from time to time? (c) He cannot afford to pay a wage of £518s. and £61s., particularly if farming on secondclass lands.

How could this position be remedied? (Release of sons, separate accommodation, labour pools. &c.) If possible, suggest also remedies other than through further Army releases?
The remedy for labour on dairy-farms can be to some extent covered by release of sons in the Army. The seasonal work such as silage making, lucerne baling, potato harvesting can be covered by co-operative labour organized in gangs such as used in cane-cutting and by prisoner of war labour. It has been suggested that prisoner of war labour be made available from central depot to farmer for a day or for periods up to a couple of months. Farmer to accommodate prisoner of war if required for periods over one week.
Has the introduction of rural award for employees affected the willingness of farmers to employ additional hired labour? If so would further price increases compensate for this and result in increased -production?
Thu rural award has compelled many farmers to do without additional herd labour. A price increase would compensate for this but would mean increased taxation and the farmer is no better off than before. I have beard farmers say why grow more when all their profit is taken from them in form of taxation. The farmer has not the ways and means of hig business to avoid taxation.

Alternative Production.

To what extent are alternative forms of production reducing dairy output?

A.. Vegetables and allowing cows to rear calves and so cut down number of milkers ha? reduced dairy production. Potatoes have increased but not as much as appears on the surface. Land broken up and sown to potatoes is then later sown to corn and cowfeed and back to pasture - and as such potatoes arc valuable in the rotation.

Arc higher prices for alternative types of production important in restricting dairy output - illustrate?
Higher prices for vegetables and vealers have restricted dairy production.
Are lesser labour needs of alternative types of production important - illustrate?
Take the high increase in pea production on the Nambucca.

Hero Testing.

Influence on production ?
1. Whilst herd-testing was being carried nut there was ». general improvement in herds.

Other Factors.

Other factors which would help to in crease production appreciably?
The establishment of fodder conservation committees in each dairying district. These committees to lune power to control funds to step up fodder conservation.

Morale.

Is morale important? Is morale good?

Suggest moans of improving morale?

Morale is important, it has been good - tint it is suffering. Such matters as tyres and transport do affect morale. I have spoken with the mcn who have been refused tyres mid they are prepared to leave the land rather than be without transport. It will affect production and affect it seriously. Why should nien and women work on farms 10, 20 and 30 miles from town and be refused tyres when the motor car is their only transport. To step up production in these areas and even to maintain production drastic action must bo taken to give these people transport. The State provides railways, tramways, omnibus services and yet falls down on the job when the farmer wants a tyre.
Indicate briefly relative importance of the major factors at present limiting production? Consider the inter-relationship of these factors, e.g. will further mechanization increase or decrease man-power needs, &c. ?

A. (a) Increase price butter fat. (6) Releases of farmers’ sons as applied for and recommended. (c) Release of tyres to farmers, (d) Increased production and taxation. ‘(e) Subsidize farm mechanization. (/) Speeding up manufacture of spare parts.

Meat forms one of the biggest items in the huge sum of money provided for food. The production of meat on the hoof is really higher than it was immediately before the war, but because of faulty distribution and processing these supplies cannot be used as effectively as they should be. In each State, a separate bottleneck is seriously retarding the total quantity of meat available for distribution to the fighting forces, to the civil population, and for export to Great Britain. In Queensland the great bottleneck is the difficulty of getting the meat boned. That determines ultimately the number of cattle that may be killed.

Mr Scully:

– It is a matter of manpower.

Sir EARLE PAGE:

– The point which I make is that some of the slaughtermen may be induced to work longer hours, if necessary for higher rates of pay, to improve the meat position. In New South’ Wales, the bottleneck arises from the . actual killing. ‘Slaughtermen themselves seem to slow down the process. How that can be remedied, I do not know. The slaughtermen have restricted the number that they will kill daily, and even then they stop work for trivial reasons. In Victoria, the bottleneck occurs on the storage side. In every State these difficulties hamper the distribution of meat to the public.

If fat stock is not handled properly, it will lose its bloom and sometimes its fat. For example, fat lambs are at their greatest value for only about a week. Like a strawberry, they deteriorate in quality very quickly if not used. If the killing of lambs is interrupted, the grazier is confronted with, a serious problem because he has no suitable country on which to run them. He always expects to be rid of them as soon as they are ready for killing. Australia’s meat production may fall short of requirements this year, not because of the lack of stock, but because of difficulties of processing and distribution. I am gratified to learn that in New South Wales an attempt is being made to increase the number of country killing centres. Strangely enough, no difficulty occurs in the area north of Newcastle, where the leadership of the men is different from that in Sydney and the western districts. For many mouths, killing has proceeded in the area north of Newcastle without a hitch. The men recognize the realities of the situation and will kill more than their normal quota if a few extra head of stock arrive. The Government should increase the number of country killing centres, or enlarge the existing centres, and provide the necessary facilities, such as cold storage. In addition, trucks must be provided so that cold storage’ accommodation will not be over-taxed. If that policy be adopted, there will be an appreciable increase of the total quantity of meat for the public.

The Government must face problems of distribution, which arise every week in Sydney as the result of the decision of the butchers employed in shops not to work on Saturday morning. Unfortunately, this decision hits the poorest people the hardest. They have no icechests or refrigerators, and if they are obliged to buy meat for the week-end on Friday, they will have difficulty in preventing it from going bad. If they eat tainted meat, they will suffer from ptomaine poisoning. People have the greatest difficulty in obtaining refrigerators. They must get approval from the Department of Munitions, and that involves filling in numerous forms declaring that the refrigerator is essential to the applicant. A refrigerator is- regarded as a luxury at the present time. Much of the difficulty could be overcome if the butchers in the shops would work on Saturday morning. Other people are obliged, to work on Saturday to make their full contribution towards the war effort. In view of the shortage of supplies of so many other essential commodities, and the acute transport problem, it is imperative that we enable consumers to purchase their requirements under reasonable conditions.

Mr Holt:

– I wish to make a personal explanation. In the course of a debate earlier this afternoon, dealing with the Government’s expenditure in connexion with the referendum, I criticized the Prime Minister (Mr.

Curtin) for being absent from the chamber. By interjection, an honorable member opposite mentioned that the Prime Minister was indisposed ;. and 1 replied that the indisposition could not bt serious as the right honorable gentleman had been, subsequent to his mishap, talking to one of my colleagues. I have since learned that on the advice of the right honorable member for Cowper (Sir Earle Page), the Prime Minister went home to rest. In these circumstances, I express regret for my criticism of the Prime Minister.

Mr FORDE:
Minister for the Army · Capricornia · ALP

– In view of the statement made during the debate on the budget by the honorable member for Maranoa (Mr. Adermann) in regard to vegetable production in Queensland, I wish to correct a wrong impression created by him that the Commonwealth Government has neglected the claims of Queensland. “With the consent of honorable members, I shall incorporate the following statement in Hansard: -

When the present Food Controller was appointed in May, 1943, he immediately considered the position regarding vegetable production. Early in June, 1943, the Controller-General of Food communicated with all State Departments of Agriculture suggesting that, instead of the system of service contracts which had been in existence in most States, there should be a system of guaranteed minimum prices with suitable ceiling prices as well. The Queensland Department of Agriculture had previously asked that the contract system for vegetable production should be discontinued in Queensland because it was felt by the Queensland Department of Agriculture that the growers were not sufficiently supporting the contract system. The reply given by the Queensland Department of Agriculture to the proposals of the ControllerGeneral was consistent with the department’s previous attitude, and consisted of the following points: (a) it was desired that there should be no contracts for vegetable : production in Queensland; (J) it ‘was desired that there should be no system of minimum prices; (c) it was recommended that there should be a satisfactory ceiling price, leaving everything else to the operation of the market.

In advising the Controller-General of the view of Queensland, the Department of Agriculture stated that there was unanimous agreement in Queensland that the then existing vegetable contract system for the services should be abandoned, provided that the growers then holding contracts were given the option of fulfilling them during their unexpired term.

On the 31st July, 1943, the ControllerGeneral communicated with the Department of Agriculture, Queensland, setting out in detail the situation in regard to the vegetable programme foa1 1943-44. He agreed to the recommendation of the Queensland Department of Agriculture that, there should he no contracts and no guaranteed minimum prices.

Towards the end of 1943 the Queensland Department of Agriculture pl.0po. ed to the Controller-General of Food that a system of optional contracts for vegetable production in the far north of Queensland should be inaugurated. This system was really a guaranteed price system, being based upon the guarantee of purchase at a fixed price with the option of selling on the open market if such a course suited the producer. The reason for the submission of this plan, was that it was considered necessary to offer some special inducement for the production of vegetables in an area where service requirements greatly exceeded normal civilian requirements. This system, recommended by the Queensland Department of Agriculture and the Queensland growers, was put into operation in the area covered by the North Queensland Vegetable Control Order, that is, north of Tully. The area embraces Cairns and the Atherton Tableland. That system is still in operation.

During the present year, the ControllerGeneral has had some representations from individual growers requesting that a system of contracts for vegetable production in Queensland should be reintroduced. He has always referred these representations to the Department of Agriculture and to the Deputy Controller of Food in Queensland, and has always indicated that the system of contracts would be reintroduced if it was desired. The latest advice received from the Department of Agriculture was on the 1.7th July, 1944, which stated that the committee appointed again to consider the Queensland position had unanimously adopted a resolution recommending that the system of contracts should not be renewed in Queensland, at least during the 1944-45 season. This recommendation has been approved, because it has been felt that it expresses the wishes, not only of the Queensland Department of Agriculture, but also of the majority of Queensland vegetable-growers. Nevertheless, the whole Queensland position is again under consideration. The food control authorities will, if desired by the Queensland growers and Department of Agriculture, reintroduce into Queensland a contract system for vegetable production for service requirements, the same as exists in other States. It, would be in operation in Queensland to-day had the Queensland authorities not specifically recommended its discontinuance.

In regard to the dehydration of vegetables, the first necessity is that a State or area in which a dehydrator is to be established should be assured of a total production of vegetables in excess of all requirements for consumption in fresh form. The honorable member for Maranoa has cited figures purporting to indicate the acreages sown to vegetables in the several States, and these figures are just as inaccurate as the other points which the honorable member has attempted to make. Here are the figures stated by the honorable member and beside them the correct figures for total vegetable acreage, including potatoes : -

Vegetable production throughout Australia has been stimulated in order to provide necessary supplies for the services and to make available, as far as possible, increased supplies for civilians in view of the rationing of other foods. The States of normal excess production have been looked to for the production of vegetable supplies for dehydration. As far as Queensland is concerned,, the normal peace-time condition is that that State is an importer of vegetables, except that in certain restricted seasons of the year small supplies of vegetables, out of season in the other States, are exported to them from Queensland.

I am informed by the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture (Mr. Scully) that on more than one occasion he had advised the Minister for Agriculture in Queensland, and stated publicly in the Brisbane press, that whenever it was clear that a suitable area in Queensland could guarantee a continuous supply of vegetables of kinds and quality suitable for dehydration a dehydration plant would be installed and operated. That position still obtains. The system operating for the production of vegetables in Queensland is precisely the system desired by the Department of Agriculture and the majority of the growers in that State.

Mr COLES:
Henty

.- In view of the shortage of man-power in the textile and clothing industry, I should like to mention certain facts in order to warn the people that they cannot expect in the current year an increase of the present scale of rationing. To-day, in the midday news session of the Australian Broadcasting Commission, the following report was broadcast: -

The Director-General of Man Power, Mr. Wurth, referred to Mr. Coles’s statement yesterday that the clothing outlook for the coming year was far from happy, because the 1943 level of man-power in the industry had not been maintained.

Mr. Wurth said the facts were hi November, 1943, a total of 57,785 employees were engaged in this industry, whereas to-day the total was 57,384. which was an infinitesimal reduction. Mr. Wurth added that he had been asked by the procurement ‘bodies to maintain the clothing level of employment at that which existed in November, 1943. This has been done, and he did not know from what authority Mr. Coles had obtained the information on which he bused his statement.

In view of that report, it is my duty to place the facts before the committee. I based my statement on information supplied by Mr. Wurth’s department at a meeting of the Civilian Requirements Board held on the 13th September. At that meeting it was pointed out that for some time past clothing and textile industries had not been able to produce goods at a sufficient rate to meet demands under rationing, and that the arrangement to increase the man-power in those industries to the figures existing in November, 1943, had not been achieved. It was said that it was unlikely that it would be achieved in the future, particularly in respect of female labour. The latest information supplied to me shows a deficiency of 2,000 persons. If Mr. Wurth’s statement that that deficiency has been reduced to 401 persons be correct, he must have moved very swiftly in the matter. However, I am principally concerned as to whether sufficient goods are being produced to meet the needs of’ the people. Let us examine the production figures. The number of pairs of boots, shoes and sandals produced in June and July this year was 205,600 less than the number produced in the corresponding months of last year. This represents a reduction of production at the rate of over 1,200,000 pairs for a period of twelve months. Reports have been published that considerable quantities of civilian clothing will soon be arriving from the United States of America under lease-lend, and, therefore, the people are expecting to get some relief in respect of clothing rationing. After two years of clothing rationing they are now beginning to feel the pinch. However, they should realize that, so long as a shortage of man-power exists in these industries, there is no prospect whatever of the present rationing scale being liberalized.

Proposed votes agreed to.

Remainder of Estimates - by leave - taken as a whole and agreed to.

Motion (by Mr. Chifley) agreed to -

That the following resolution bo reported to the House: - That, including the several sums already voted’ for such services, there be granted to His Majesty to defray the charges for the year 1944-45 for the several services hereunder specified a sum not exceeding f 182,863,000.

Resolution reported.

Standing Orders suspended; resolution adopted.

In Committee of Ways and Means:

Motion (by Mr. Chifley) agreed to -

That towards making good the supply to His Majesty for the service of the year 1944-45, there be granted out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund a sum not exceeding £130,904,000.

Resolution reported and adopted.

Ordered -

That Mr. Chifley and Mr. Lazzarini do prepare and bring in a bill to carry out the foregoing resolution.

page 1335

APPROPRIATION BILL 1944-45

Bill presented by Mr. Chifley, and passed through all stages without amendment or debate.

page 1335

STATUTORY DECLARATIONS BILL 1944

Assent reported.

page 1335

PAPERS

The following papers were pre sented : -

Customs Act - Proclamations prohibiting the exportation (except under certain conditions) of goods - Nos.608-610.

Lands Acquisition Act - Land acquired for - Commonwealth purposes -

Cairns, Queensland.

Morpeth, New South Wales.

Townsville, Queensland.

Telephonic purposes - Geraldton, Western

Australia.

National Security Act -

National Security (General) Regulations - Orders -

Control of tooth brush handles - Revocation.

Navigation (Control of public traffic) (No. 4).

Regulations - Statutory Rules 1944, Nos. 130, 131, 135, 136.

Taking possession of land, &c. (42).

National Security (Industrial Property) Regulations - Orders - Inventions and designs (78).

United Nations -

Food and Agriculture -

Conference (May-June, 1943) - Final Act and Section Reports.

Interim Commission (August, 1944) -

First Report to the Governments.

Relief and Rehabilitation Administration - First Session of the Council (NovemberDecember, 1943).

House adjourned at6.18 p.m. (Friday).

page 1335

ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

The following answers to questions, were circulated: -

Broadcasting : Frequency Modulation ; Commercial Stations

Mr Fadden:

n asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

In view of the fact that recent statements by the chairman of the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Broadcasting, Senator Amour, on the complex subject of a changeover to frequency modulation wireless, have created uncertainty in the trade and among owners of existing receiving sets, will the Prime Minister, with a view to giving the Australian people some authoritative information, obtain expert advice and make a statement to the House this week clarifying the position so far as the Government’s intentions are concerned?

Mr Curtin:
ALP

– There is no immediate intention to take any action to vary the existing broadcasting system so far as frequency modulation is concerned. The Government will give due notice to the trade and to the people of Australia when any change in the existing broadcasting system is contemplated.

Mr CONELAN:
GRIFFITH, QUEENSLAND · ALP

n asked the Minister representing the Postmaster-General. uponnotice -

Will he have prison red a conspectus showing: (a) to whom B class licences have been issued since the inception of radio transmission in Australia:(b) who issued the licences and on what dates they were issued; and (c) what licences have since been sold, transferred, leased or surrendered and who are the present holders of such licences ?
Are there any stations, other than 2KY (New South Wales).3KZ (Victoria), and 6KY (Western Australia) that are Labour party stations or controlled in such a way as to reflect Labour party views?
At the present time, in which States are there no licensed stations which canbe described as Labour party stations?
Which stations are associated with networ k organizations ?
Which stations are controlled by newspapers and what are the names of the newspapers?

Mr Calwell:
ALP

– The PostmasterGeneral has furnished the following reply : -

Inquiries are being made and a reply will be furnished to the honorable member as soon a s possible.

Fruit and Vegetables : Royal Commission’s Rep o r t .

Mr Fadden:

n asked the AttorneyGeneral, upon notice -

Has he read the conclusions of the Queensland Royal Commission on Fruit and Vegetables in its report of 19th May, 1944. that evidence showed that the price-fixing law was not being enforced and in consequence was not being observed by many agents and retailers?
Has he also read the commission’s statement that inadequate law enforcement was not only a detriment to the public hut an injustice to the honest trader?
If so. will he call for a report on the royal com mission’s comments and issue the necessary instructions for the rigid and expeditious enforcement of the law in Queensland?

Dr Evatt:
ALP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follows : - 1 and 2. The report of the Royal Commission on Fruit and Vegetables, dated the 19th May, 1944, has been examined by my colleague the Minister for Trade and Customs.

The Minister has also received reports on the comments of the commission. All steps possible with available staff have been and arc being taken to ensure that maximum prices shall not be exceeded.

Mr Holloway:
Minister for Labour and National Service · MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP

y. - On the8th September, the honorable member for Parramatta (Sir Frederick Stewart) asked the following questions, without notice : -

Will the Treasurer state whether workers homes built at Glen Davis, which cost the Commonwealth Government £800 each, have been sold to the local building society for £750 each, on the understanding that the balance of £50 is to be applied to the replacement of the foundations of the buildings, many of which have not yet been occupied?

In accordance with the promise made at that time by the Treasurer, I now furnish the honorable member with the following information : -

As theHouse is aware, rather special conditions obtain at Glen Davis, where for some time this Government and preceding governments have been promoting endeavours to develop the shale oil industry.For some considerable time very primitive housing arrangements existed at that centre. The Commonwealth War Housing Trust decided, in view of the urgent need for making provision for families unsuitably housed at Glen Davis, to arrange for the erection of a number of temporary dwellings. When tenders were called, costs were found to be substantially in excess of those of similar units in other localities. On further review, therefore, it was decided to build permanent cottages. Plans were varied accordingly, but in the initial stages timber stumps which had been provided for in the war-time cottages specifications were retained. It was subsequently decided to provide brick or concrete piers for those cottages on which work had not already commenced. Eight cottages had, however, been commenced, and the trust decided not to vary the arrangements in these cases.

Subsequently, negotiations were concluded with the Community Advancement Society under which the society undertook the purchase of the houses for its members with financial assistance arranged by the Commonwealth and State Governments. Thirty cottages in all were involved, the price agreed upon being £18,500. or approximately £616 a cottage. The total purchase price was £2,000 below the overall costs.

In arriving at a decision to sell the cottages, a number of special factors were taken into account, including the high costs of construction at Glen Davis, the need for attraction of appropriate labour to this isolated centre and the fact that the housing position in Glen Davis is very closely associated with the operation, of the shale oil industry there.

In the initial stages of the negotiations for the purchase of the 30. cottages, the Glen Davis Community Advancement Society desired that the trust should substitute brick piers for the timber stumps in the eight cottages in which the latter had been provided. The society asked that this be done without any increase in the sale price. The War Housing Trust, however, declined to agree to this course, and the society subsequently requested that the work of substitution be completed at its own expense at a total cost of £216.

The society also asked for certain additional work to be carried out while the cottages were under construction on the same basis, the total cost (including alteration to piers) being £500, which will fie paid by the society in addition to the purchase price of £18,500 agreed upon.

Sugarindustry.

Mr Holloway:
ALP

– On the 15th September, the honorable member for Wide Bay (Mr. Corser)asked the following question, without notice: -

In the absence of the Minister for Labour and National Service, I ask the Prime Minister whether an endeavour will be made to provide the extra hands needed on the sugar-cane fields and in the sugar mills in certain areas where considerable loss and hardship are being felt. I specifically bring to the Government’s notice the needs of the mill areas of Nambour, Bauple, Maryborough and Gin Gin?

The Prime Minister promised to refer the question to me, and I have now obtained the following report from the Director-General of Man Power: -

The matter of providing the large volume of skilled cane-cutting labour requirements for the Queensland sugar-fields and labour for sugarmills, has received the very close and continuous attention of the Man Power Directorate within the limits of the labour resources available to it, having due regard to all other urgent and essential labour requirements. While it has not been possible to provide labour in the quantities desired by some sections of the sugar industry, the efforts of the Man Power Directorate have met with considerable success. Whereas the average crushing rate for the Queensland mills last season was approximately 64 per cent., during the last seven weeks to the 16th September, the crushing Tate has averaged 70, 70, 73, 60, 78, 76 and 79 per cent., respectively.

Additional measures are now being taken to provide further labour by releases from the services and from the Civil Alien Corps.

The needs of the four mills mentioned by the honorable member for Wide Bay will be given due regard when additional labour is being allocated. This allocation is arranged on the advice of the Sugar Industry Advisory Man-power Committee which functions in Brisbane and on which all sections of the industry are represented.

Cuthbert’s Misima Gold Mines Limited

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:
BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · CP; LP from 1944; LCL from 1951; LP from 1954

n asked the Minister for External Territories, upon notice -

Has Cuthbert’s Misima Gold Mines Limited been permitted to send two or more men back to Misima Island to take care of the company’s assets?
Has machinery belonging to Cuthbert’s beenremoved by the services?
Han he refused Mararoa Gold Mines Limited the right to send caretakers to Misima Island ?
What difference in treatment has been accorded these two companies on Misima Island- Why was there any difference in treatment?

Mr Ward:
ALP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follows : -

Yes. An application for permission to send two men to Misima Island to carry out necessary repair work was made by Cuthbert’s Misima Gold Mines Limited and approved by the General Officer Commanding, New Guinea Force, who is vested by National Security (Emergency Control) Regulations with authority to control the entry of civilians to the territory whilst it is under military control.
I am informed that some of the plant and machinery was taken over by the Army.
An application by Mararoa Gold Mines Limited to send two representatives to Misima was not approved by the General Officer Commanding, New Guinea Force.
A district officer reported that there was urgent need for repair work at Cuthbert’s Misima Gold Mines Limited to prevent serious damage to the mine and the General Officer Commanding, New Guinea Force, authorized the entry to the territory of two representatives of the company to carry out such work. Arrangements have been made with the military authorities for other mining properties, including that of Mararoa Gold Mines Limited, to be examined by an engineer officer of the New Guinea Force in order to ascertain whether it is necessary for representatives of those companies to proceed to the territory to carry out repairs. Reports of these inspections are awaited from the General Officer Commanding, New Guinea Force. Inquiries are also being made to ascertain when the repair work at Cuthbert’s Misima Gold Mines Limited will be completed, with a view to determining whether it is any longer necessary for the representatives of that company to remain in the territory.

Preference to Ex-Servicemen

Mr Archie Cameron:
ALP

n asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

Will the bill for preference to ex-servicemen drafted by the Returned Sailors, Soldiers and Airmen’s Imperial League of Australia and submitted to the Government be introduced into Parliament wholly or in part?

Mr Curtin:
ALP

– The draft hill submitted by the Returned Sailors, Soldiers and Airmen’s Imperial League of Australia is .being examined by the Government in connexion with the preparation of the legislation necessary to give effect to the Government’s policy on preference matters.

Was in Europe : Peace Terms to Rumania and Finland.

Mr Archie Cameron:
ALP

n asked the Minister for External Affairs, upon, notice -

What are the terms of peace agreed to by the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and (a) Rumania and (6) Finland?

Dr Evatt:
ALP

– For the convenience of honorable members I have caused copies of the telegraphic texts of the two armistices to be placed on the table of the Library. It will be realized that certain minor amendments to these texts may be necessary in the light of the final drafts. The authentic texts will be placed on the Library table in the same manner so soon as they are available.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 21 September 1944, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1944/19440921_reps_17_179/>.

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House of Representatives21 September 1944

NEW AND OPPOSED BUSINESS AFTER 11 P.M

QUESTION

BROADCASTING

Mr CURTIN:Minister for Defence · FREMANTLE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP

Mr Menzies:

Mr CURTIN:

Mr Menzies:

Mr CURTIN:

Mr Menzies:

Mr CURTIN:

Mr Menzies:

Mr CURTIN:

Sir Frederick Stewart:

Mr CURTIN:

Sir FREDERICK STEWART:PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

Mr CURTIN:

Mr Menzies:

Mr CURTIN:

Mr Menzies:

Mr CURTIN:

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr CURTIN:

Sir Frederick Stewart:

Mr CURTIN:

Mr Guy:

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr MENZIES:Leader of the Opposition · Kooyong

QUESTION

AUSTRALIAN ARMY

Mr DALY:MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr FORDE:Minister for the Army · CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND · ALP

Mr Abbott:

Mr FORDE:

Mr ABBOTT:

Mr FORDE:ALP

Mr McEwen:

Mr FORDE:

QUESTION

TRANSPORT OF STOCK

Mr McLEOD:WANNON, VICTORIA

Mr SCULLY:Minister for Commerce and Agriculture · GWYDIR, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

QUESTION

INTERSTATE RAIL TRANSPORT

Sir FREDERICK STEWART:

Mr WARD:Minister for External Territories · EAST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

QUESTION

ROAD TRANSPORT

Mr ABBOTT:

Mr WARD:ALP

OVERSEAS CONFERENCES

Reports and Documents

Dr EVATT:Attorney-General · BARTON, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

QUESTION

WHEAT INDUSTRY

Mr McLEOD:

Mr SCULLY:ALP

QUESTION

HOUSING

Mr SHEEHAN:COOK, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr CHIFLEY:Treasurer · MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

QUESTION

TOBACCO AND CIGARETTES

Mr HUTCHINSON:DEAKIN, VICTORIA

Mr BEASLEY:Minister for Supply and Shipping · WEST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

QUESTION

AIRCRAFT PRODUCTION

Mr WHITE:BALACLAVA, VICTORIA

Mr DRAKEFORD:Minister for Air · MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA · ALP

QUESTION

COAL-MINING INDUSTRY

Mr JAMES:HUNTER, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr BEASLEY:ALP

Mr James:

Mr BEASLEY:

Mr HOLT:FAWKNER, VICTORIA

Mr WARD:ALP

Mr HUTCHINSON:

Mr BEASLEY:

Sir Frederick Stewart:

House of Representatives
21 September 1944

Mr CURTIN:
Minister for Defence · FREMANTLE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP

Sir FREDERICK STEWART:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

Mr MENZIES:
Leader of the Opposition · Kooyong

Mr DALY:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr FORDE:
Minister for the Army · CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND · ALP

Mr FORDE:
ALP

Mr McLEOD:
WANNON, VICTORIA

Mr SCULLY:
Minister for Commerce and Agriculture · GWYDIR, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr WARD:
Minister for External Territories · EAST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr WARD:
ALP

Dr EVATT:
Attorney-General · BARTON, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr SCULLY:
ALP

Mr SHEEHAN:
COOK, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr CHIFLEY:
Treasurer · MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr HUTCHINSON:
DEAKIN, VICTORIA

Mr BEASLEY:
Minister for Supply and Shipping · WEST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr WHITE:
BALACLAVA, VICTORIA

Mr DRAKEFORD:
Minister for Air · MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA · ALP

Mr JAMES:
HUNTER, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr BEASLEY:
ALP

Mr HOLT:
FAWKNER, VICTORIA

Mr WARD:
ALP

Mr WHITE:
Balaclava