House of Representatives
22 September 1942

16^th Parliament · 1^st Session

QUESTION
- DAYLIGHT SAVING
QUESTION
- AUSTRALIAN BROADCASTING COMMISSION
QUESTION
- DAIRYING INDUSTRY
APPLE AND PEAR MARKETING BOARD
QUESTION
- SULPHUR FOR SULPHURIC ACID
QUESTION
- INTERNATIONAL SUGAR AGREEMENT
QUESTION
- AUSTRALIAN” ARMY
MEAT INDUSTRY
QUESTION
- INCOME TAX ASSESSMENTS
QUESTION
- CANTEENS FOE MUNITION WORKERS
MILITARY CAMPS
QUESTION
- STATUTE OF WESTMINSTER
QUESTION
- RUBBER AND PETROL
QUESTION
- MAN-POWER
QUESTION
- DEHYDRATION OF MUTTON
QUESTION
- SLEEPING ACCOMMODATION ON TRAINS
LAUNCESTON TAXATION OFFICE
QUESTION
- SILVER CURRENCY
QUESTION
- CONSTITUTION ALTERATION REFERENDUM
QUESTION
- PRIMARY PRODUCTION
TOBACCO PRICES
QUESTION
- PROFITEERING
ASSENT TO BILLS
QUESTION
- BUDGET 1942-43,
QUESTION
- ESTIMATES 1942-43
QUESTION
- A BIG JOB WELL DONE
PAPERS
ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
- Fruit and Vegetable Production
- Allied Works Council
- Rabbit Skins

Mr. Speaker (Hon. W. M. Nairn) took the chair at 3 p.m., and read prayers.

page 569

QUESTION

DAYLIGHT SAVING

Mr PATERSON:
GIPPSLAND, VICTORIA

– In the event of daylight saving becoming operative next week, will the Prime Minister discuss with the Premiers of the States..the suggestion that in dairying districts milk and cream shall be collected and transported and schools shall be opened one hour later, according to the new time, in order that as little inconvenience and disadvantage as possible may be imposed upon those who arc engaged in the dairying industry!

Mr CURTIN:
FREMANTLE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1934; ALP from 1936

– The most sympathetic consideration that the circumstances will allow will be given to the suggestion.

page 569

– The broadcast is not denominational..

Mr CURTIN:

– I shall have the matter inquired into.

page 570

QUESTION

DAIRYING INDUSTRY

Mr BERNARD CORSER:
WIDE BAY, QUEENSLAND

Mr FORDE:
Minister for the Army · CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND · ALP

– If the honorable gentleman will bring the specific cases which lie has in mind to my notice, the fullest consideration will be given to his request; but he will understand that the authorities will have to have regard to similar applications from other parts of Australia where, no doubt, butter factories are in a similar position. Whilst defence and the security of the nation are the Government’s first concern, it is prepared to do everything possible to cushion the effect of the call-up of man-power from primary industries.

page 571

APPLE AND PEAR MARKETING BOARD

– Some time ago Senator Lamp and I waited on the Minister for the Army on the subject of leave for soldiers in Tasmania. Has the Minister yet received a report on the matter? If not, in view of the serious discontent among soldiers in that State on the subject of leave, will the Minister endeavour to have the grievance remedied ?

Mr FORDE:
ALP

– J. have called for a report on the practicability of giving effect to the strong representations made by the honorable member and his colleague, but have not yet received a definite reply. As soon as the report comes to hand, its contents will be made known to the honorable member.

page 572

MEAT INDUSTRY

Mr RANKIN:
BENDIGO, VICTORIA

– In view of the fae that the lamb season is at its peak, and the meat monopoly is taking advantage of every opportunity to depress the market to the disadvantage of the primary producer, as is always done, when a doubt ar, ses a« to the price of meat, will the Minister for Commerce make a statement to the House regarding meat eon trol

Mr SCULLY:
ALP

– The whole subject of meat control is now under consideration by the Government, and a committee will be appointed this week to take control of the industry generally. As to vested interests taking advantage of the present glut of lamb, the producers can well protect themselves by sending their lambs to be frozen. The price for spring lambs has already been published, and summer lambs are to be dealt with on a similar bases. That will give protection to the producers. Formerly they glutted the market with sucker lambs, but now they will be able to hold them, and get the advantage of the increased weight. The Government is alive to the position, and will do all it possibly can to protect the interests of the primary producers.

Mr ABBOTT:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Will the Minister inform the House whether the primary producers will have majority representtion on the meat control committee?

Mr SCULLY:

– They will be amply represented, but they will not have a majority representation. Each section of the industry will be represented.

Mr RANKIN:

– Is the Minister for Commerce in a position to announce how many persons will be appointed to the committee for the control of meat, what interests will be represented, and what their representation will be?

Mr SCULLY:

– Details of the Government’s proposal, including the full panel of members of the committee, will be made public within a few days.

page 572

QUESTION

INCOME TAX ASSESSMENTS

Mr JAMES:
HUNTER, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Will the Treasurer state whether many workers in heavy industries have not yet received their income tax assessments in respect of income earned during the year 1940-41, although as much a.s from £20 to £50 has been deducted from their pay? I understand that, deductions from their wages are already being made again in respect of tax on income derived in 1941-42. Will the Minister take up with his department the matter of establishing a taxation branch in Newcastle, owing to the congestion of work in the Sydney office, in order to obviate the present difficulty and have the assessments distributed as soon as possible?

Mr CHIFLEY:
Treasurer · MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I am not aware of the circumstances of the case mentioned by the honorable member, but it is possible that owing to the increased number of income tax assessments that have to be issued in Australia this financial year - there are nearly one million - some of them may not yet have been sent out. I shall make an investigation regarding the honorable member’s suggestion that special facilities be provided at Newcastle.

page 573

QUESTION

CANTEENS FOE MUNITION WORKERS

Mr MORGAN:
REID, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Is the Minister for Labour and National Service aware that in Great Britain munitions factories employing over 250 workers are compelled to install canteens for the comfort and convenience of the employees? Tn view of the unsatisfactory conditions in certain munition factories in Australia in that regard, has the Minister given consideration to the desirability and practicability of having such facilities compulsorily installed in establishments engaged in war industries?

Mr WARD:
Minister for Labour and National Service · EAST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I understand that certain canteen facilities are provided in Great Britain. In Australia, the welfare section of the Department of Labour and National Service has given much thought to the subject of the provision of such facilities for workers, and at present it is concentrating its activities in that regard on government establishments mci annexes. It is also endeavouring to encourage private employers to provide canteens for their employees. One of the difficulties is the lack of supplies, but the welfare section is pressing on with the work, and hopes later to be in a position to provide these facilities for all workers.

– Will the Minister foi the Army, in conjunction with his colleagues in the Government, consider convening a conference of representatives of the Army and man-power authorities, and also, possibly, of the Commerce Department, to draw up a concrete ulan for apportioning man power so as to ensure that sufficient is available for the production of foodstuffs, while not. impairing the efficiency of the nation’s defences?

Mr FORDE:
ALP

– I am favorable to the suggestion that a conference be called to consider the man-power requirements of the primary industries, the fighting services, and the munitions factories in relation to the already too small pool of labour available. Misunderstandings are often smoothed out at round-;table conferences. I s 110 U kl be pleased to hear any opinions which the honorable member may .put forward on behalf of those whom he represents, and I shall explain live position from the point -of view of the Army and other fighting services.

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:
Minister for Aircraft Production · BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

– Will the invitation extended to the honorable member for Wimmera be extended to other honorable members who represent rural electorates - or is it something in the nature of an application of ointment to a sore spot?

Mr FORDE:

– This subject has been brought to my notice by the honorable members for Wimmera, Ballarat, and Wannon, as well as by several honorable members on the other side of the House. I assure the honorable member for Barker (Mr. Archie Cameron) that there will be no discrimination whatever in this matter, and that my door is always open to him.

page 574

QUESTION

DEHYDRATION OF MUTTON

Mr MARWICK:
SWAN, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

– Has the Minister for Commerce made any arrangements for the installation in Western Australia of plant for the dehydration of mutton, and, if so, where is the plant to be situated?

Mr SCULLY:
ALP

– I have given instructions that a survey be made of all the Australian States with a view to discovering the most favorable sites for meat dehydration plants, but I cannot say offhand what site will bc chosen in Western Australia. When the Australian Agricultural Council meets here next week, I hope to consult with the representatives from Western Australia en this subject, and everything will be done to hasten production. I understand that there are large supplies of mutton available in Western Australia, and the Government is anxious to use them.

page 574

QUESTION

SLEEPING ACCOMMODATION ON TRAINS

Mr JOHNSON:

– In view of the reported decision to discontinue the provision of sleeping accommodation on trains between Adelaide and Melbourne, will the Minister for Transport consider the .position of passengers from Western Australia who have already travelled so far before reaching Adelaide?

Mr GEORGE LAWSON:
ALP

– The decision to discontinue the running of sleeping cars between Adelaide and Melbourne was reached by the railway authorities of Victoria and South Australia, in consequence of a recommendation by the Coal Commission which met in Melbourne a few days ago. I appreciate the inconvenience which will be caused to passengers travelling from Western Australia to Melbourne, and I shall make inquiries with a view to seeing what can be done to afford relief.

page 574

LAUNCESTON TAXATION OFFICE

Mi’. GUY. - Is the Treasurer aware that taxpayers in the northern part of Tasmania have been put to great inconvenience and considerable expense by the closing down of the taxation office at Launceston ? In view of the fact that the Gonn mon wealth has taken over the collection of all income tax, will the Treasurer consider re-opening this office?

Mr CHIFLEY:
ALP

– Representations on this subject have been made to me by other honorable members from Tasmania. I shall make inquiries, and a reply will be furnished later.

page 574

QUESTION

SILVER CURRENCY

Mr MULCAHY:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES

– In view of the statement attributed in the morning press to the Treasurer with regard to alleged trafficking in silver currency, will he have regulations issued prohibiting the sale or purchase of coins at prices greater than their face value?

Mr CHIFLEY:
ALP

– I have no recollection of making any statement to the press on this subject, but I was informed by the honorable member himself that he had heard that there was some trafficking in silver currency for resale to retailers and others. I have asked t!he Commonwealth Bank to make inquiries into the matter.

page 575

QUESTION

CONSTITUTION ALTERATION REFERENDUM

Mr CALWELL:

– Can the AttorneyGeneral say when he proposes to introduce bills for the taking of referendums for the purpose of amending the Commonwealth Constitution ?

Dr EVATT:
ALP

– Very shortly.

page 575

QUESTION

PRIMARY PRODUCTION

Mr ANTHONY:

– Some time ago 1 asked the Minister for Commerce whether he would furnish to the House the production objectives, which certain primary industries were expected to reach this year. I have not received a. reply from the Minister, but I have noticed that some of the information which I sought has .been published in certain newspapers. Can the Minister supply that information to the House?

Mr SCULLY:
ALP

– .As soon as the information can be tabulated, I shall lay it on the table of the House.

page 575

TOBACCO PRICES

Mir.. RIORDAN. - Has the Minister representing the Minister for Trade and Customs seen the statement in Monday’s newspapers that Can-eras Limited, tobacco manufacturers, are paying a dividend of 45 per cent., and can Tie state whether that is an indication either that the consumer is paying too much for his tobacco or that, the producer is receiving too little for his leaf? Will the Minister have these outrageous profits investigated with a view to increasing the price to the grower, or reducing the price to the consumer, or both?

Mr BEASLEY:
ALP

– The matter raised by the honorable member is worthy of serious consideration, and I shall have pleasure in bringing it to the notice of the Minister for Trade and Customs with a view to obtaining a report.

page 575

QUESTION

PROFITEERING

Mr CLARK:
DARLING, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Has the Minister representing the Minister for Trade and Customs seen a paragraph in Sunday’s newspapers that, a woman was charged 9s. for a bottle of olive oil, and that when she threatened to bring the matter to the notice of the Prices Commissioner she was offered a refund of 5s. 3d.? Can he say what the practice of the department is in such cases, and does he not think thaiproceedings should be instituted in this instance?

Mr BEASLEY:
ALP

– I have not seen ti to report referred to by the honorable gentleman, but I point out that great, difficulty is experienced in obtaining evidence of profiteering, because frequently persons who make complaints are reluctant to come forward to give evidence.’

Sir Frederick Stewart:

– The evi”dence has been obtained in this case.

Mr Morgan:

– Could not inspectors be appointed?

Mr BEASLEY:

-In order to cover the whole field so many inspectors would be required that it would practically mean a duplication of the Public Service; and that would increase the Government’s difficulties in respect of man-power. If, however, the persons concerned in these transactions are prepared to give evidence in relation to them, I am confident that the Minister for Trade and Customs will be more than pleased to take up such cases. In this instance, if the woman concerned will come forward to give evidence I am sure that action will be taken.

page 575

ASSENT TO BILLS

Assent to the following bills reported : -

Entertainments Tax Assessment Bill 1042. Entertainments Tax Bill 1!)42. States Grants (Entertainments Tax Reimbursement) Bill 1942.

page 575

QUESTION

BUDGET 1942-43,

In Committee of Supply: Consideration resumed from the 1.8th September (vide page 560), on motion by Mr. Chifley -

That thu first, item in the Estimates under division J.. - The Senate - namely, “Salaries and allowances, £8.000”. be agreed, to.

Mr HOLT:
Fawkner

.- The last pre-war budget presented to this Parliament provided for an estimated expenditure of £95,000,000, which sum included what was then a. record peace-time provision for defence. Since that time the expenditure on defence has naturally grown each year, owing to the outbreak of war. In the first year of the war, Australia’s war expenditure amounted to £55,000,000; it increased to £170,000,000 in the second year, and to £320.000,000 in the thi id year f hostilities. The Treasurer (Mr. Chifley) has told us that his estimate of war expenditure for this year is £440,000,000, the total expenditure of the nation for the year being estimated at £549,000,000. Those are big figures for a country with a small population. Should war expenditure continue to increase in the same ratio, it may be that next year slightly over 7,000,000 people will have to face an expenditure of £700,000,000. Rut even that amount may not be final. The President of the United States of America, who probably is in a position to hazard a more accurate guess than any body else at the moment, has expressed the belief that, the war will last for another three and a half years. If that be the case, much heavier demands will be made on our national income than the considerable sum that has been forecast for this financial year. By any standard, the sum of £549,000,000 is a colossal amount for 7,000,000 people. It represents £78 a head of the population. If we were to pay for the war as we went along, every man, woman and child in the Commonwealth would have to contribute 30s. a week.

How are we to raise this vast sum? The Treasurer indicated that he proposed to use three methods, namely, taxation, loans, and bank credit. Taxation and departmental receipts, he tells us, will bring in £249,000,000, leaving a difference of £300,000,000 to be financed by loans and bank credit. From loans last year, the Government raised £120,000,000. But 1 remind honorable members that last year, the Commonwealth had a new government exhorting the people to subscribe to war loans. Japan had entered the war, and for the first time Australia was threatened directly with ihe very real menace of invasion. All those elements were conducive to success in raising war loans. With the assistance of those factors, the Government was able to raise £120,000,000. In other directions, however, its loan programme fell down. The sale of war savings certificates reached £12,500, 0O0 in the previous year, and the Government expected to stretch that sum to £25,000,000. lt succeeded in raising only £9,000,000.

– The loans will never bc repaid.

Mr HOLT:

– .The honorable member fox Melbourne does not agree with raising money by way of loans,, but the Government, of which he is a. supporter, hopes to raise millions of pounds from loans, and, if we can: repay those loans - I do not see why we shalL not be able to do so - we shall be untroubled in paying the post-war credits. Canada, which has not yet felt the same physical threat as this country has, has already adopted the system of post-war credits. It has followed in the footsteps of Great Britain and, undoubtedly, anticipated the future financial policy of the United States at America. In Canada a man who earned 5,000 dollars last year paid 1,000 dollars of income tax. On a similar earning this year, he will pay 1,878 dollars,, and of the extra 878 dollars 500 dollars will be a post-war credit. Canada, is meeting 52. per cent, of its war costa out of current revenues, as compared with Australia’s dangerously; low figure of 46 per cent.

If. we are to have a proper financial approach by the Government to the matter of wm finance, allied with a sane policy on what might be termed the negative side, that is the reduction of spending power, there must also, be revision of the Government’s policy in respect of profits and taxation of company earnings generally. No more fallacious humbug has been talked, in this Parliament than onthe subject of profits. We have reached the stage at which success in business is regarded as a moral offence and the making of profits as a crime against the nation. The reason is entirely to be found in the attitude of honorable members opposite, to whose minds the making of reasonable profits is a sin and should be prevented. A short examination of the facts reveals how dangerously stupid such an attitude is. T do not say that profits should not be taxed, but they certainly should not. be taxed to the point of eliminating the incentive to private industries and individuals for greater effort. That creates a basic weakness in the production programme, because manufacturers will not take risks, exercise their ingenuity, or expand their operations, unless they consider that the prospective return justifies their doing so.

Mr Lazzarini:

– Does the honorable member suggest that manufacturers are so mercenary that they need the incentive of high profits to manufacture munitions required for their own. protection.?

Mr HOLT:

– It is not that they are mercenary. The manufacturer who works his machinery for longer shifts and takes risks and extends his plant in order to increase the production of munitions is no more mercenary than his employee who works overtime for the same purpose and receives extra wages as the result. I remind t ,he committee that other countries which have grappled with this problem have done so much more realistically than this Government has.. In Great Britain, for instance, the rate of profit permissible before the wartime profits tax operates on a new and struggling business is lifted to S per cent. Germany, whose control over public finance is more flexible and effective than that- of any other country engaged in this war-, at first took in taxation all profits in excess of 6 per cent. The German authorities found that the weakness of that policy was that, it discriminated against companies whose risks were greater and depreciation of assets more rapid than was the case with other companies, and, accordingly, they introduced a sliding scale of taxation. The present taxation of companies in Australia is not only discriminatory in that it makes no provision for added risk or added depreciation, but it is also grossly unfair to the individuals who derive their income from company dividends. That contention was borne out to the satisfaction of most honorable members when they examined the proposal to take all profits in excess of 4 per cent, on capital, it is most significant that, of the 200 or 300 letters which I received on that proposal, two-thirds came from women, most of whom were in receipt of small incomes. New Zealand is a country comparable with Australia, and it has a Labour government. Its system provides for income tax rebates to be made to shareholders in respect of payments of company tax.

Mr Calwell:

– The honorable member would not expect the big shareholders to write to honorable members and show their hands on the 4 per cent, proposal.

Mr HOLT:

– -No doubt the honorable member had as many letters as I had from what are. normally called the big shareholders. The honorable mem!ber also must have been struck by the large proportion of persons of moderate income, particularly women, who would have been affected drastically by that proposal.

One of the most serious weaknesses of this Administration is disclosed in its handling of the problem of waste. I use the term “ waste “ in all its senses, because, if we are to shoulder the enormous burden of £549,000.000 of expenditure his year, with the likelihood of the amount rising to £700,000,000 or more next year, quite obviously we must reduce to a minimum waste of men and mate rials. I remember the Prime Minister Mr. Curtin) telling honorable members a few years ago that, as Leader of the Opposition, he did not intend to examine microscopically the Estimates, because he realized that all the pruning he could suggest would not have the same effect in reducing expenditure as would result from a shortening of the war by even three months. That is one way of approaching this matter, but it is not a very satisfactory one. lt is looking at it only from the point of view of waste in the sense that we as a Government spend more for particular articles than there articles are really worth. That is waste in one sense but really the least important sense, normally speaking, in time of war. The really serious waste is the misuse, or foolish use, of man-power and materials. [ shall give three short illustrations of what I have in mind. No doubt each honorable member will have his own list, to which he could add just as I could add at great length to these three. I drew the attention of the Minister for the Army (Mr. Forde) to one instance, which has a significance in view of the statements we have already heard to-day from honorable members of their difficulties owing to the man-power shortage. I told the Minister of 30 men in the Army who have been assigned, apparently as a permanent task, to washing the floors of the rooms and corridors at Wesley College, Melbourne^ which has been taken over for administrative purposes by the Army.

This fact was brought to my notice by one of them, who was previously a primary producer on his own property, and in that capacity no doubt rendered very useful national service. He was classed as B2 physically, and therefore was not sent into the Army for combat purposes, but was one of those 30 men .stationed at the college to do cleaning work. I know the locality in question. If, in the past, more than five or six female cleaners were put to the task, I should be very much surprised. It is work which female cleaners were doing formerly in very much fewer numbers than the Army establishment apparently requires, and it is work which they could do to this day.

Again, to move to another sphere which will be of interest to the Minister assisting the Treasurer (Mr. Lazzarini), there goes on every day and every week in this country the wasteful expenditure of money, and the wasteful use of men, under the system of working regular twelve-hour shifts in munitions factories. I know that the Government is aware that this is a. wasteful use of man-power, and that it has attempted by way of negotiation to break down the twelvehour shifts to nine or ten hours. It was conclusively proved in the last war, and has been forcibly argued by expert medical opinion already in this one, that more production is obtained from men working regularly nine, or at the most ten, hours a day than from the same men attempting to work twelve hours. But the great weakness of the position now is that the employees have become accustomed to the wages they get for the extra hours of overtime, and, although it is doing their health no good, and they are not reaching the output that they should, they are resisting any move to reduce their hours to ten, or nine or less. A third continuing example of wastefulness in public expenditure, which the country cannot afford to carry in addition to the other tremendous burdens which the war is throwing on it, should also be made, known. This is my third illustration, on which I venture with some diffidence, because expert opinions are involved, but I shall have the temerity to express my views on it, because to me it is the height of stupidity. It relates to our tank production programme. Honorable mem- hers are aware that some considerable time ago the Government decided to manufacture tanks in Australia. Their manufacture is throwing, and will continue to throw, an enormous strain upon us, on top of the tremendous munitions programme we already have, in providing skilled personnel and valuable materials required for other munitions production. It adds another heavy burden to the many that the country is carrying, and for what purpose? If our policy is defensive, then we know that we have to resist a seaborne invasion. The number df heavy ranks, or tanks of any greater strength than, say, our ‘ordinary Bren gun carrier, that could be brought to this country by a sea-borne force, is obviously limited. At the same time we are allied with countries, members of the united nations, which are turning out tanks in vast numbers. The tank production of America is growing by leaps and bounds every month, but with this knowledge in the mind of the Government and its expert advisers, they are still persisting in what. I insist is a most wasteful and useless additional burden upon our munitions programme.

Mr Conelan:

– Does not the honorable member think that we need tanks?

Mr HOLT:

– We may need tanks, a» we need many things, but our capacity to produce them is no greater than our capacity to receive tanks which are produced very much more easily and in much greater numbers from allied countries. I do not mean that we should simply rest on. our oars and leave it to other countries to do these things for us. The point I am. leading up to is that there are much more effective ways in which we can assist than by embarking on a form of production which is novel to us, and which will strain to the last degree our capacity to expand our munitions production generally. I have no doubt that the policy of continuing the production of tanks in Australia is supported by expert opinion, but I remind the House that a very sage old Frenchman, M. Clemenceau, said that war wa3 much too serious a. business to leave to the generals. Our experience in this war has confirmed that statement. The Prime Minister told us recently, when honorable members from all sections of the House were pressing him to permit greater numbers of nien to be engaged in munitions and food production, who would necessarily, in that event, have to be withdrawn from the Army, that his expert advisers had suggested a figure for our Army strength, and our Army was not yet as strong numerically as he would like it, or, for that matter, as they would like it. Was there ever a general who was satisfied that his army was big enough ? If the decision were left to the army chiefs, quite obviously and very naturally they v/ould see the problem through their own eyes, and in the light of their own immediate difficulties. There must be some authority able to survey the whole scope of our war-time problem, and not merely the individual problems of the Army, Navy, Air Force, munitions production, food production, or civilian needs in other directions. All of those elements must be surveyed, not by some person who is particularly interested in only one of ih em, but by a government which is prepared to see the task as a whole, and accept, responsibility for it as a whole. I think there will be general agreement on that point. It is not pleasant for honorable members to challenge policies which are dished up to them as having emanated from expert advisers, but there are aspects of our policy to-day which, if they do represent the views of expert advisers, prove that we need another set of experts. It is not many years since we were told by very much the same brand- of experts that all Ave required to defend Australia against the risk of attack by a sea-borne force was a force of 100,000 trained men. The honorable member for Batman (Mr. Brennan), as a member of a former Government, will probably have that figure in. his mind, as no doubt other honorable members will also. Thai was only a few years ago. The. figure has been increased time and again. We have not forgotten that they were practically the same advisers who were responsible for the debacle, in Greece and the muddle in Malaya. Therefore, if we have any misgivings and serious doubts about some of these problems, there is an obligation upon us to express our views forcibly in relation to them. Speaking personally,

I entertain the very gravest doubts of the wisdom of the Government’s policy of draining this country of man-power for the purpose of creating an enormous army machine.

Mr Pollard:

– Does the honorable member think that our Army is strong enough now?

Mfr. HOLT. - lt could be made strong enough at two-thirds or less of its present numerical strength. We can keep our Army strong by strengthening the civilian support behind it, and by civilian support I mean not only normal aspects of civilian life, but also the munitions front, and the food front. -Civilian morale is an important element in bolstering up the fighting qualities of an army. But what is happening to-day? We are draining from factory production and from every other aspect of community life, the energetic, able and vigorous men who comprise some of the potent elements in our war effort. What is the role of this country? That is a question that we must ask ourselves. Are we to take a leading role in terms of munitions, aircraft, and food production, and also in respect of the fighting services, or have we special opportunities, and as the result of these opportunities, special obligations in the common war effort of the United Nations? In my opinion we have a definite role. Whilst there is an obligation upon us to maintain a strong, well-equipped and mobile army in this country - I emphasize each of those three adjectives - we also have allies in this theatre of war. who as their numbers- grow, and as the Pacific offensive develops as we all hope that it will develop in good time, will need increased supplies of munitions and prepared foodstuffs. We have heard a great deal about the coming Pacific offensive, and about the shortage of shipping, which it is claimed is one of the most serious of the problems that are hampering us to-day, and preventing us from putting forward the most effective war effort of which the United Nations are capable. If that be so, is it not the task of this country to provide munitions and food for allied forces operating in adjacent Pacific territories rather than to allow those supplies to be brought by a long sea route from Canada and America? The policy that this Government is pursuing in regard to the expansion of our armed forces is so out of keeping with the common sense view of the matter, that it gives rise to the most serious misgivings. Last week I pointed out that other countries which are engaged in the war to no less a degree and in -no less a vital manner, than we are, have been able to organize their manpower in such a way as to make possible the withdrawal of large numbers of men from the front line to assist in the production of munitions and the harvesting of crops. Russia has been able to withdraw men from its fighting services to harvest crops in various districts, and Germany also took advantage of the lull in the Russian campaign last winter to transport. -thousands of men back to Germany to swell munitions production. [Extension of time granted.’] I fail to see any satisfactory reason why similar action could not be taken in this country.

What I have said may be summed up in this way. If this Government is to escape the charge of wilful ignorance and crass irresponsibility, it must reduce civil spending power to the same degree that it has reduced the production of goods for civilian use; if it is to escape the charge of squandering our meagre resources of men and materials, it must wage an offensive war on waste, in all its forms. Practising socialists of the kidney of the honorable members for East Sydney (Mr. Ward) and Corio (Mr. Dedman) are endeavouring, under the cloak of wartime exigencies, to put into effect th, peace-time political aims of the Labour movement - a policy which was castigated by that Labour stalwart, the former Premier of Queensland, Mr. Forgan Smith, as a dishonest policy. Of them I quote these words in conclusion -

Some men look on the State as a machine with which they may try experiments. ,11 the experiments fail, they suppose that they can replace things as they were. An. institution which has been brought to maturity in a thousand years may be cut down by a quack in a. single session of Parliament, but he can no more restore it than the woodman can replace a fallen oak. It seems a fine thing, a great achievement, to cut down it tree - a small effort produces a vast effect, and surrounding fools clamour and applaud. Foi the moment a few strokes of the axe seems an operation as admirable as the action of the organic forces which, out of a small acorn, working silently through a series of ages, produced the tree mid set it in its place. Simula it bc .found afterwards that thu mischief charged against it continued, and was due to another cause, should other evils undreamt of appear, when it is gone, to ‘have been created by its removal, the glory of the destroyer, whether woodman or reforming radical, will ],e a* short-lived as it has been cheaply gained.

Mr MORGAN:
Reid

.- This is the second record war-time budget that has been introduced by the Treasurer (.Mr. Chifley), and when we take into consideration the fact, that the expenditure which it envisages is five and a half times greater than that of our largest peace-time budget, wc get some idea of the tremendous proportions to which the problem of financing the war has developed. 1 commend the Treasurer for the manner in which he has bandied the formidable task which was imposed upon him and upon the Treasury officials who assisted him. I realize that there arc still some orthodox features in this budget, but it must be remembered that the Treasurer always has to depend upon the Government for a lead, and the Government has to depend upon the people for its .mandate. The Government still lacks n majority in the Senate. I am satisfied that the people have now been thoroughly educated on the subject of finance and that, if the Government takes up the challenge that has been issued by the Opposition, it will have a sweeping victory. The Opposition has, as usual, trotted out the usual bogys, including that of inflation. Nevertheless, when it was in office it made use to some degree of national credit. Of course, it did so very furtively, because it was afraid to associate itself openly with the protagonists of the new financial era that is just beginning. When the first Menzies budget was introduced, I said that it would ultimately break down under the weight of its own orthodoxy. My prophecy has been fulfilled, and to-day the Government, has to bridge a gap of £300,000,000. Despite what honorable gentlemen opposite may say, a considerable portion of that sum will have to be derived from national credit. In fact, long before the war ends, we shall have become accustomed to the use of national credit. Not the arguments of the theorists, but force of circumstance will compel this change. Wc shall not set foot on the road to victory until we adopt new financial methods. Since I have been a member of this Parliament, probably three-fourths of our time in this chamber has been occupied in considering means of raising the money needed to conduct the war. We are tackling the problem from the wrong direction. We should budget for objectives by fixing the numbers of men and the quantities of munitions and other materials required, and then deciding how to obtain the necessary money. Finance should be the servant of the nation, not its master, as it has been up to the present time. About twelve months ago, I pointed out in this chamber that the allied nations at that time had an advantage over their enemies of about five or six to one in man-power and about twenty to one in raw materials. The position has deteriorated since then, however, and, unless we adopt better methods of organizing and financing our campaign, it will be completely reversed. There seems to be a continual struggle between the exponents of old and new financial systems. Some of our taxation measures should have been scrapped long ago, particularly those which affect soldiers, munitions workers, members of the Public Service and others employed by the Commonwealth. There are many more people in the employ of the Commonwealth Government to-day than there were in peacetime. It is absurd that each one should be paid a salary or wage and then taxed upon that income, necessitating the maintenance of a large taxation staff. It would be much better to pay these people the net sums that they receive after payment of taxation. By this means, a great deal of man-power now employed in the Taxation Department could be released to give service to the nation in other ways. Some months ago, Mr. Ralph Clark, a Master of Arts, propounded a scheme by which, during this period of crisis, all of us would be guaranteed supplies of food, clothing and shelter by tho Government so that we could concentrate on the successful prosecution of the war without being distracted by economic worries. There is a great deal of merit in that scheme. There is nothing mystical about finance. Only recently, I read the following article in a copy of the Sydney Daily Mirror : - “ The restoration and maintenance of pros perityafter the war must be accomplished by the printing of additional money”, declared Henry Ford, America’sNo. 1 industrial genius, inan interview with the magazine Liberty. “T he first thing that should be done when peace comes is to issue currency to repay the people for money loaned to the Government”, he said. “ That money would provide purchasing power, keep industry going and provide jobs until we get squared all round”.

Ford laughed at a suggestion that “ printing press “ dollars would mean inflation. The dollar was good all over the world, he said, because there was plenty to make it good.

He is still a pacifist and conscientious objector, claiming that the last war threw civilization back 100 years. “Things are different now”, he said, when reminded that depressions usually followed wars. “ If this war ended to-morrow, there would be a big gap to be filled. Right now there are shortages of many things people want - andmany of these shortages are increasing. “If the war goes on for another year or two, there will bea demand for all we can make.”,hesaid. “Production is the only way to prosperity - and there isn’t such a thing as over-production “.

That is the opinion of the world’s most outstanding industrialist. Honorable gentlemen may have their own ideas about finance, but they should give heed to the views of this man,who has proved by his achievements that he knowsa great deal about finance. Hehas put his financial theories into practice, and has brought into being the finest industrial organization in the world. Some persons consider that, in war-time, it is not logical to use national credit to produce goods which probably will be destroyed. However, there is no sound argument against the use of national credit in times of peace, and any doubts about the wisdom of such a policy in war-time could be resolved by instituting a wealth tax or capital levy. Such a tax need not. be large, because of the vast amount of private wealth in Australia, but for those people who bad to pay the tax it would be an in- surance against the destruction of themselves and their wealth. After the war ended, those persons would still havea considerable amount of wealth. For every £1 00,000,000 of national credit issued, a similar amount couldbe obtained by means of the wealth tax.

The one would be offset against the other; the proceeds of the wealth tax would replace the wealth destroyed by war. We shall be forced to resort to some form of capital levy before the end of the war, because we shall not be able to pass the cost on to posterity as some honorable members opposite propose. They advocate the raising of money by means of compulsory loans, which will bear interest. Who will have to repay these capital sums and the interest which accrues on them? Shall we expect those fighting men who are fortunate enough to return after the war and the dependants of those who give their lives to do so? The cost of the war of 1914-18 was charged to posterity, but future generations, and the men of our fighting services who are now making great sacrifices, will not allow themselves to be loaded down in that way. The war should be paid for while it is being fought. If it be good enough for men in the fighting services to risk their lives for their country, it should be good enough for the wealthy interest in the community to contribute towards what I regard as an insurance policy, by means of a wealth tax or something of the kind, so that the costs of war may be met, as far as possible, as they are being incurred. Our national debt has increased by more than £300,000,000 since the outbreak of the war. For this reason and others thatI have stated I consider that national credit and a capital levy should be utilized to the fullest possible degree, to meet the current cost of the war.

If some such policy be applied honorable members would not be required to devote so much of their time in Parliament to the discussion of financial measures, but would be able to make their services available to the Government for other more effective duties. I consider that arrangements should be made to enable more private members to assist Ministers in their administrative work. In my opinion the parliamentary committee system which has been established has proved of value. Some criticism of this method has been offered, but I believe that the results achieved have entirely justified the experiment. Hitherto most of the committees have been engaged on special investigations which have resulted in substantial savings of money to the Government. I was a member of the Joint Committee on War Expenditure for about a month. I know that it did good work during that period, and I have every reason to believe that it is still doing good work. The outlay of public money on these committees is relatively small. I drew only 30s. in expenses in connexion, with one visit to Melbourne. Most of my service on that committee was rendered in Sydney, and that being my home town, I did not draw expenses. This committee was able to save the Government £.100,000 in one instance for it caused a certain firm to refund that amount of excess profits that it had made on a certain undertaking. Another firm refunded £48,000 for a similar reason. The appointment of private members to assist Ministers in the onerous duties which devolve upon them in consequence of war has also been effective, for Ministers have been enabled to devote a great deal more of their attention, to major matters of policy. Some members of the Opposition have given good help to Ministers in this way. I believe that a number of their colleagues who have expressed a desire to co-operate with the Government, could also assist, by following the good example that has been set.

M.r. Makwick. - A few honorable gentlemen of the honorable gentleman’s own party could co-operate with the Government a little more effectively than they are doing.

Mr MORGAN:

– I am not my brother’s keeper.

There is need for more attention to be given to the problem of production, in order to facilitate the war effort. During my travelling, particularly in Victoria and New South Wales, I have observed considerable evidence of waste in certain war industries. Man-power, equipment and materials have not always been used to the best advantage. Because of this, I have advocated that a Director of Production should be appointed, to perform duties of a kind performed by such officers in Great Britain and the United States of America. As it is impossible for Ministers to give close attention to the detailed operations of various industries, there is scope for the employment of nien with high organizing and administrative capacity to assist in eliminating waste in production. Either a Director of Production or a Production Board should be established. I am aware that a sub-committee of Cabinet has been appointed to coordinate production, but Ministers have too many other duties to perform to be able to devote to this particular activity the time that it demands. If a Director of Production were appointed, he should be given over-riding authority that would permit him to co-ordinate the activities of departments engaged in war production which are now operating in more or less watertight compartments. If such an officer learned that one factory had a surplus of material, whereas another was suffering from a shortage; or that one factory had too many machines and another too few; or that one factory had a surplus of man-power and another a deficiency of it, he could co-ordinate these various resources with great advantage to the nation. Many employers, as well as employees generally, would welcome such a move. I have known of certain factories being slack, and of employees being stood down for two or three weeks, because materials or equipment have not been available for some reason or other. The men have received their wages because the employers have not wanted to risk losing them. Under the cost-plus system, such unproductive expense has been passed on to the Government, of course. Sometimes, parts of machines have not been available to remedy breakdowns. We all are well aware that ships carrying machines and spare parts to Australia have gone to the bottom of the sea. This also has caused idle periods in certain establishments. I believe that a Director of Production would be able to readjust available supplies so as to alleviate troubles of this kind. On occasions, factory workers who have been stood down for short periods have been very fretful over this procedure. Sometimes they have not been informed of the reason why work has not been available for them and they became suspicious. The workers generally would welcome the establishment of what might be called industrial shock troops who could be moved rapidly from one factory to another as occasion demanded. It is particularly necessary !”h at some such policy should be applied in relation to sub-contractors. It sometimes happens that from 30 to 50 sub-contractors supply equipment to an establishment which is engaged largely in assembling operations. Obviously, the rate of production in such an establishment is governed by the rate of the delivery of goods by the subcontractors, and a breakdown by one sub-contractor may seriously impair the rate of, production of the assembled article. The Government should give close attention to this problem. Production committees have been appointed in various establishments in Great Britain in order to increase efficiency and output, and many workers there have co-operated most successfully with the factory management in stimulating production. I have seen many places where production committees could operate with good effect in Australia. In one establishment in my own electorate, a committee of 50 workers representative of various branches of the industry has been able to co-operate with the management in complete harmony and with marked advantage to the 2,000 employees in the factory. Whenever production is lagging, they go into the matter with the management, and try to discover the reason. If there is a shortage of orders, they try to encourage sales, because they are just as anxious that the enterprise shall be a success as is the management. If an industrial dispute occurs they confer with the management regarding it, and the matter is settled amicably, with the result that, during the last three years, there has not been a stoppage of work for even one day. This shows what can be done by effective co-operation between the management and the workers. I realize that there are some employers who frown upon anything that may tend to give the workers a say in management. One corporation recently dismissed the eight members of the production committee which had been set up by the workers. The result is that the most highly skilled and responsible workers often refuse to serve on production committees; but, if the Government recog- nized the committees officially, as does the Government of Great Britain, this difficulty would be overcome. After all, the man at the machine is often in the best position to say how efficiency can be improved. The Government is itself interested in many industries at the present time; it has financed them, and is their chief customer. Therefore, it should seek representation upon the directorates. I look forward to the time when we shall have, acting in close cooperation, the workers, the private shareholders - who will draw limited profits - and the Government as the representative of the general community. Eventually, under a system of this kind, the workers may expect to become shareholders in industry, and to participate in the profits of their own labour.

Reference was made in the budget speech to the need for reform of the Constitution, and we were told that the Government proposed to bring down legislation on this subject. I hope that, before proposals are put to the people, the Commonwealth Government will confer with the State governments. I agree with the ex-Premier of Queensland, Mr. Forgan Smith, that the Commonwealth should not take advantage of the war, and of the weak financial position of the States, to foist proposals for constitutional reform upon the country. The only fair and honest way is to discuss the matter with the State governments, which are just as anxious for a measure of constitution reform as is the Commonwealth itself. The State governments have ideas on the subject of postwar reconstruction, but they distrust central control, and they have reason to. I myself have had experience of the difficulties of trying to get anything done by a central authority far removed from the scene of action. In 1938, I visited Canberra to interview the then Treasurer, Mr. Casey, on behalf of the cooperative building societies of New South Wales. I explained to him that the societies had, up to that time, raised about £10,000,000 for housing, and were anxious to obtain financial accommodation from the Commonwealth Bank. They had tried to obtain finance from the Commonwealth Bank some time before, but had been refused. The Commonwealth Bank rate was 44. per cent.; but, when it refused the accommodation asked for, the Bank of New South Wales, which had previously offered to finance the societies at 4£ per cent., increased its rate to 5 per cent. When I put tha matter before Mr. Casey, his only response was to ask me how the societies had been able to get past the Loan Council and raise £10,000,000. He was not concerned with whether the people of New South Wales had houses. Apparently, if he had had his way, nono of the 20,000 houses which had. been erected under the co-operative building schemes would have been provided. For the last twelve months, the Granville Municipal Council has been trying to obtain a Commonwealth grant of £6,000 towards the cost of constructing a road and small bridge on the route between Parramattaroad and the site of an important munitions factory. The total cost is estimated at £12,000. The road has already been dedicated, but the council has not sufficient money to do the whole of the work, though it is prepared to defray half of the cost. I have made representations to successive Treasurers without success, and have been sent on a dizzy circle from the council to the Commonwealth, from the Commonwealth to the State government, and then from the State government back to the council, until I have despaired of ever getting anything done. While this vital work is being neglected, our enemies are finding sufficient finance to build thousands of miles of roads and. railways into the heart of Russia. The War Expenditure Committee- has reported that the proposed work in the Granville municipality is urgent; but some Treasury official behind the scenes in Canberra, who has probably never been on the ground, is able to veto the whole proposal. This is a further illustration of the harm that can result from centralized control. The governments of the various States no doubt have schemes for post-war development. Mr. Forgan Smith had plans for developmental works in Queensland, and. similar schemes have been evolved by the Government of New South Wales. There should be no great financial difficulties in the way of carrying out such works, provided a guarantee could be given by the Commonwealth Government that the necessary credits would be made available. It would not :be necessary to adopt the orthodox methods of finance. Even the honorable member for Fawkner (Mr. Holt) has admitted that national credit oau be utilized in- peace-time.

I have no doubt that the States would agree to transfer to the Commonwealth many of their powers including industrial arbitration. Disputes extending beyond the boundaries of a State are already dealt with by the Commonwealth Arbitration Court, and I contend that the industrial arbitration laws should be placed on a uniform basis. We have uniform bankruptcy law3 throughout the Commonwealth, but varying railway gauges. There is no good reason why we should not adopt uniform laws on many other matters, instead of having conflicting laws such as those operating with regard to marriage and divorce. It seems logical that the Commonwealth should exercise the residual powers and that subsidiary powers should be granted to the States. In matters of local government, the powers of the States should be increased. Many local governing bodies pass conflicting by-laws and regulations. On one side of a street certain building regulations may operate, whilst, a land-owner on the opposite side of the same street may be called upon, under the building regulations passed by another local governing body, to pay £50 more than is paid by his neighbour.

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:

– I am not to be put in the position of having to ask for an extension of time. I have no more desire for that than the honorable member for Watson (Mr. Falstein) will have on the 3rd October. The debate on the budget is not confined to a discussion of high principles of finance, government and that sort of thing. One may discuss a multitude of things. One thing to which I wish to refer is waste. Anything that can be done by any government department to ensure that the resources of this country shall not be wasted is a good act. Whether in respect of petrol, rubber, aluminium, wheat, copper, flour or anything else, whatever government is in charge, whether it be a Curtin government, a Fadden government, a Menzies government, or a Wilson government if we come to that, a certain amount of waste under conditions of war is inescapable. But it is very desirable that that waste be reduced to absolute minimum and that nothing be wasted which is capable of being saved, because we may nave -a surplus of a commodity today and none of it to-morrow. A few weeks of campaign by the Japanese in Malaya and the Dutch East Indies completely changed the balance of availability of certain commodities. Rubber, tin, quinine and tea are four commodities that one oan name offhand in respect of which the British Empire, the United States of America and the Dutch from being the “ haves “ became the “ have nots “ and the Japanese the “ haves “. The Council for Scientific and Industrial Research and other bodies are now going hammer and tongs to try to discover substitutes, and tin mines in this .country, condemned as unprofitable, are now being worked. So it does not pay in war-time to think that everything in the garden is lovely, and that we need not worry.

– I am not prejudging. My normal attitude would be that we should have the election when it is due, unless there are important special reasons to the contrary. Oliver Cromwell did not believe in elections at all. He had one Parliament that lasted for 19 years, but during that time Parliament certainly governed England. The honorable member for Reid (Mr. Morgan) said a great deal this afternoon about posterity. I say that this budget is austerity for posterity, but in Cromwell’s time conditions were so austere that it was a criminal offence in England for a man to eat a mince pie.

– I do not know what that means, but I am quite certain that the Prime Minister would see to it that I was a very busy man, and had little time to consider what he and certain other Ministers were doing.

I return now to the honorable member for Batman (Mr. Brennan), who interjected a moment ago. I have been waiting for him to interject for quite a long time.

Mr Brennan:

– I did not say very much.

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:

– I noticed that. There was an occasion when the honorable member said quite a lot to me. I had always thought that he was one of those steel-like persons who could not be broken or even bent. However, on the occasion to which I refer he said, by way of interjection, “ I say, loud enough for the honorable member for Barker to hear, that if it is the last thing I do in this life, I shall vote against Statutory Rule No. 77 “. But he did not do so. In my dreams one night I saw a vision of the honorable member for Batman standing at the gates of Heaven arguing the point with St. Peter, and poor St. Peter was in a quandary. In one hand he held a copy of the Second Epistle of St. Paul to Timothy containing the words, “ I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith “, and in the other, page 397 of this year’s Ilansard. Unfortunately, I did not find out what happened because I woke up, but I think that the honorable member would have had a little bit of explaining to do, as he was not present when the vote on regulation 77 was taken.

Mr Calwell:

– Where does St. Paul come into it?

Mr Abbott:

– He changed his mind, too.

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:

– He, like many another man, was an innocent author. Some people write things and others misunderstand them, just as the honorable member for Melbourne (Mr. Calwell) will find, as his experience widens, that things which he says will be misunderstood by people in his electorate. When he goes before the electors of Melbourne at the next elections, he will have to explain to them why he got up on two very good Australian legs in this chamber, and said that the second Chifley budget was a United Australia party budget. Whatever success he may have in that explanation, and whatever the future holds in store, for Heaven’s sake let us realize that first things come first in this country. The time is coming when we shall have to pull away the veils which so far have been hiding things as they really are. Men have to carry their own responsibilities in this chamber, and if we cannot have a national government, 1 would far rather see the present Government, absolutely untrammelled, carrying out the policy which it believes to be right, just, and proper, for the Commonwealth of Australia, than the perpetuation of what I believe to be an inadequate and most unsatisfactory system.

Sitting suspended from 6.15 to 8 p.m.

Dr PRICE:
BOOTHBY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · UAP

.- At this stage of the debate, when many aspects of the budget have been thoroughly discussed, I approach the subject from a fresh and important stand-point, by considering whether or not the Government and its advisers are acting prudently in the light of overseas developments in war finance. In his speech on the budget, the Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin) wisely stated that Australia was passing through the same financial war problems as overseas countries, and then, perhaps equally wisely, he threw his papers on the table. If the statistics in those papers were international comparisons properly presented they showed that this budget lies between the very satisfactory budget which was passed in Great Britain in April and the very unsatisfactory and dangerous budget which is causing much anxiety and worry in the United States of America. In the light of overseas finance, there are four main faults in this budget. They are, first, insufficient taxation, and a total neglect of post-war credits to reduce consumption at a time when civilian production is decreasing; secondly, a wholly disproportionate reliance on voluntary loans, the probable success of which the Prime Minister himself admitted in this chamber to be doubtful: thirdly, the extension of rationing under confused ideas, in which rationing due to shortages of goods is muddled up with monetary rationing to reduce consuming power; and, fourthly, an almost certain extension of credit to augment the increase in 1941-42, which was very much higher proportionately than the British rate. Fifty-five per cent, of this budget consists, perhaps appropriately to Australia, of great open spaces to be filled by voluntary loans, or, as has been hinted, by compulsory loans or a release of credit. The Prime Minister made the dangerous admission that he laughs at threats of ruin from credit release. The millions of Austrians and Germans who suffered disaster and starvation in the great credit release that followed the war of 1914-18 learned not to laugh at ruin by credit release. The world can indeed be thankful that the United States of America has a President who has not such a perverted sense of humour as to laugh at ruin by credit release. Even the honorable member for Henty (Mr. Coles) admitted, from that Tower of Babel where he now sits, the advantages of taxation as a means of war finance, and the Prime Minister himself conceded that the budget does not cover the whole field of taxation. Therefore, I was horrified to see in the budget three great faults as regards taxation. The first is a wholly insufficient proportion of taxation as compared withother revenue, the second is an insufficient amount of new taxation, and the third is the failure of the Government to use taxation in order to reduce the consuming power of the lower incomes, which control 70 per cent, of our national income. This budget proposes to secure only 45 per cent, of our expenditure from taxation and from departmental receipts, and, if war expenditure increases, as seems probable, that proportion may very easily fall to 40 per cent. Canada, including its purchases for Great Britain, is financing over 50 per cent,of its war expenditure by taxation, and one report states that, if purchases for Great Britain are excluded, that dominion is financing 78 per cent, of its war expanditure by taxation. According to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Great Britain is financing 53 per cent, of its war expenditure by taxation and by post-war credits, which are classed as taxation. The United States of America is aiming at securing only 40 per cent, of its war needs by taxation. That is regarded as insufficient and likely to cause a very dangerous inflationary trend. As regards new taxation, Great Britain is imposing taxes at double the rate of Australia. It is levying £186,000,000 of new taxation, which is equivalent to £4 per capita, as against £14,000,000, or £2 per capita, in Australia, according to the Treasurer’s budget statement. I realize that the problem of taxing the lower incomes, which control 70 per cent, of the national income, is extraordinarily difficult, but I believe that many honorable members on the Government side of the chamber really see, like the British and the Americans, that we cannot avoid taxing those incomes because, in war-time, we must reduce their consuming power. In Great Britain prior to the war, fewer than 1,000,000 workers were taxed an amount of £2,500,000. The 1941-42 British budget provided for taxing 5,500,000 workers an amount of £125,000,000, including £60,000,000 of post-war credits. In addition, these people have been taxed an enormous amount by means of increased indirect taxation. The British recognize, like wise people, that if they do not do that, the lower incomes will suffer much more through a process of inflation. The Americans also realize that they must follow this same sad course. President Roosevelt is loudly demanding increased taxation. The Yale Review, which is one of the most reliable newspapers in America, had this to say on the subject -

It will be necessary to tap the great increase in spending power of the lower income groups much more severely than either the present tax programme plans to do, or the war saving bond campaign can hope to do on a voluntary lending basis.

Those words apply with equal force to the financial policy of Australia. Unfortunately, neither this country nor Great Britain can obtain any appreciable extra amount from the higher and middle income groups. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said that, in Great Britain, the higher and middle incomes could do no more, and he pointed out that 85 per cent, of the British national income was in the hands of the people earning less than £500 a year. I believe that in Australia the upper and middle income groups must still contribute more towards the nation’s finances. In fact, it has been said very unkindly, that Commonwealth Ministers, high government officials, members of the Common- wealth Parliament, and even some of our economists, might carry a considerably heavier burden of taxation. The fact remains that, even if we confiscated all personal income in excess of £400 a year, we should still have to exact a very heavy tribute from the lower incomes in order to bridge this tremendous gap of £300,000,000. Nevertheless, in the face of a position like that, this Government has just been bowing for political applause on the ground that it has reduced the burden of taxation imposed on over 70 per cent, of Australian taxpayers. I ask the country whether this is austerity, sincerity, what the Prime Minister designates “ stripping ourselves “, or what he terms “ getting ourselves down to bare subsistence level “ ? I leave it to the people of Australia to judge the difference between the deeds and the words.

Mr Brennan:

– Docs the honorable member recommend getting down to bare subsistence level?

Dr PRICE:
BOOTHBY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · UAP

– Yes. This country would be much better off, particularly after the war, if it faced up bravely to the necessity for increasing taxes. According to expert evidence heard by the Joint Committee on Profits, the total of incomes of from £250 a year to £400 a year has increased more than any other income group. For instance, the committee was given statistics of the earnings in a representative selection of Victorian and New South Wales factories. The number of employees had increased by 20 per cent., earnings per capita had increased by 25 per cent., and total wages had increased by 53 per cent. The Prime Minister spoke about the lag experienced in the collection of taxes. The British and the Americans realize that in war-time they must have quick-operating taxes, such as pay-roll taxes, sales taxes and special taxes on consumption goods, which bring money in quickly. The honorable member for Robertson (Mr. Spooner) assured this House that the Government could secure an additional £100,000,000 by means of post-war credits. I say emphatically that the Government is running a grave risk in refusing to introduce a system that has been extremely successful in Great Britain.

I have dealt with taxation, so I now turn my attention to Labour’s pathway through the great open spaces - the policy of voluntary Joans. On the eve of the Japanese attack last year, I criticized the Chifley budget on the ground that it was primarily a voluntary budget. It proposed to raise £138,000,000 of new money by voluntary means, and only £22,000,000 by compulsion. I forecast that the success of that budget would depend on whether or not Japan attacked us. I said that, if war came in the Pacific, and that if our coastal cities were bombed, half of the people who were asleep would be ready not only to lend but even to give their shirts to the Government. This Government knows only too well that my forecast was over-optimistic as regards finance. Japan did attack, only five weeks after I spoke; but, in spite of the appalling danger and in spite of the infinitely greater need, this Government did not make the voluntary system a success. Although it made frequent appeals for loans and subscriptions to war savings certificates, it secured only £130,000,000 of the £138,000,000 demanded by the first Chifley budget, and, in spite of two or three very big increases of taxes, the Government had to release credit to an amount of £70,000,000 or £80,000,000. When we remember the desperate battle for the second Liberty Loan, the eloquent appeals of the Prime Minister, and the reduced sales of war savings certificates, we must confess that, even with Japan at our doors, the voluntary system of finance has not been successful. It is very difficult to compare the contribu-tions of the British people with the contributions of Australians, but the Treasurer (Mr. Chifley) said that, if we multiplied, sales of war savings certificates six or seven times, we should then equal the British rate of contribution. Last year in this chamber I drew attention to gambling, liquor, and other abuses which are interfering with our war savings, hut the Government has not yat faced up to this problem. For instance, it has not supported the very fine efforts that have been made by the Premier of South Australia in this connexion. The Prime Minister’s decision, which he announced last week, to continue to make available postal and telephonic facilities for gambling, is another example of what the Americans aptly call “ egg walking “ - a practice indulged in when an election may be near and there maybe a danger of losing votes.

In spite of the pressing dangers of the present-day situation, and in spite of the Prime Minister’s eloquent warning, we find that this budget relies mainly upon voluntary effort for an increasingly difficult task. The budget provides for the raising of the huge sum of £549,000,000 - more than half of our national income, or £78 for every man, woman andchild in Australia. Of that £78 the Government proposes to raise £42 by voluntary loans, which means that every man, woman and child, including members of our fighting forces, will be called upon this year to lend £42, or £168 for an average family of four persons. Speaking of war savings certificates, the Prime Minister said that every person must contribute at least 3s. a week; but to that 3s. must be added 13s. for voluntary loans, making 16s. for every individual, or 64s a week for a family of four persons. In spite of the many appeals made for subscriptions to the second Liberty Loan, only 191,000 people out of 3,100,000 income-earners in this country contributed, and as they contributed an average of £220 each, it is quite obvious, as has been pointed out in financial circles, that the success of the Government’s loan policy still depends upon the large financial institutions, and a comparatively small number of patriotic citizens. The same criticism may be offered in respect of war savings certificates, the sales of which fell from £13,000,000 last year to £9,000,000 during the year that this Government has been in office, yet the Treasurer says cheerfully that he proposes to raise sales of war savings certificates to the British level. One must admit quite frankly and fairly that the Government’s handling of the voluntary system, and its loan programme, has been a record of bad psychology and bad management. Whilst the Government has relied largely upon the voluntary system, it has done its utmost to ruin what- ever chance that system had of succeeding, by its absurd actions in freezing capital, and proposing to limit profits to 4 per cent. - a proposal which the Prime Minister, himself, admitted was unworkable and unjust. The Government has frightened the thrifty sections of the community more than they have been frightened by any government since the regime of Mr. J. T. Lang, an ex-Premier of New South Wales, and it is not obtaining the support of its own political adherents who are reaping the financial benefit. The failure of the voluntary principle in this country is very closely akin to a similar process which is going on in the United States of America. In the words of the Christian Science Monitor -

The billion dollar a month war bond goal is not being reached. Departmental store volumes are soaring. Mail-order firms report new records. Congress toys with a tax bill but is loath to pass one which will really mop up surplus earnings.

Whilst I make these criticisms of the voluntary system,I assure the Government that if this budget be passed, I shall do all I can as a private member, both on the platform and over the air, to help to make a “ silk purse from a sow’s ear “, that is, to get all the finance we possibly can under this budget. Press reports indicate that it is the opinion of American experts that Japan is preparing for a direct attack upon Australia. That opinion was also expressed by the honorable member for Barker (Mr. Archie Cameron) this afternoon, and his warning, blunt as it was, was not couched in terms that were too strong. Therefore, I believe that if Parliament does pass this budget - even with only a bare majority - we must all do our best to make the voluntary system as big a success as possible.

I turn now to my third criticism of the Government which relates to the question of rationing. With insufficient taxation and with what the Government admits may be an optimistic loan programme, the Government is placing its faith in a system of rationing as a means of reducing consumption. Here, unfortunately, the Government is mixing up the British system of rationing to save shipping and to increase the output of munitions, with a very cumbersome monetary policy aimed at reducing consumption, which could be accomplished much more effectively, simply, and rapidly, by direct methods. Owing to the shortage of certain commodities rationing is necessary, and it should be fairly simple to cover essential goods, Rationing to reduce consuming-power litis certain advantages of social justice, it is true, but the same result could be achieved with equal justice by a properly graded system of income tax and post-war credits. Professor Giblin summed up the matter when he made the following statement in the course of evidence given before the Joint Committee on Profits: -

Considering the difficulties we have had over ii simple matter like petrol, you can imagine the trouble there would be in carrying the rationing scheme further. The prospect of its adoption to any large extent makes my blood run cold.

Honorable members will admit that’ that was a good prophecy of the Mother’s Day muddle. Professor Isles, of the University of Adelaide, exposes the fallacies of rationing from another viewpoint. He is a very practical man who was brought back to Australia hy the University of Adelaide because of the services which he had been rendering to the British Government in relation to the re-establishment of depressed industry. I am afraid that when the Minister for War Organizaton of Industry has completed his work in this country, an expert on the restoration of depressed industry will be a very valuable asset. Recently Professor Isles published a study of rationing in South Australia which shows the weaknesses of the system. He writes as follows : -

The efforts of the Government to secure the release of the man-power necessary for the execution of the defence programme - especially the efforts of the Department of War Organization of Industry as the coordinating body - seem to be hampered by a failure to conceive the problem and the various methods by which the release of man-power from civil employments can be. effected - in their proper perspective. Rationing of consumers would be an ineffective way of dislodging the man-power required from civil occupations, and if the execution of the programme in South Australia, and later in other States, is riot to be seriously held up. both civil and defence industries must be deliberately rationalized and rationalized at once.

Even in its existing scope, the rationing policy of the Government - particularly in relation to the wholesale rationingis already threatening grave hardships and injustices, especially in -respect of small businesses. In that regard I speak with knowledge of South Australia, but from what I have read, it seems clear that the policy threatens to drive a great many small businesses in Victoria into a morass.

I turn now to the last and probably the strongest of my four criticisms of the budget. It is on the question of credit release. With inadequate taxation, no provision for post-war credits, and admitting also the improbability of securing the full amount sought by way of voluntary loans, the Government must fall back upon credit release at a time when that policy is apt to be particularly dangerous because the unemployed have been absorbed into industry, and civil production is on the decrease. Moreover, the Government admits tha.t it has already released £70,000,000 or £80,000,000 in the form of treasury-bills. In addition, the note issue has been increased by £32,000,000 since this Government assumed office. Already there is great discontent and alarm at the rising prices in this country. Our prices have now risen 18 per cent, since the outbreak of war, and it is interesting to note that in the United States of America prices have risen 17 per cent, a fact which is causing considerable anxiety. Americans estimate that their price rise, which is about equal to ours, constitutes a tax of approximately 9 per cent, to 15 per cent, on lower incomes. Another effect ha3 been a considerable depreciation of the capital that people on smaller incomes have invested in life assurance policies and deposits in savings banks. In the words of the New York Times of 29th July last - ls this the kind of taxation we want now? If we do not, then we had better settle down seriously to a taxation programme designed to remove excess purchasing-power in an equitable manner, before inflation devours that excess purchasing-power in a manner without any fairness and beyond any one’s control.

The Yale Review which, as I have said, is one of the most reliable papers in the United States of America, makes this statement in its last summer number -

The factors operating in the present situation, which threatens serious inflation, are much more clearly visible than is usually the case. At the present time, mainly because of the growth of war expenditure by borrowing, the money incomes of the civilian population are increasing while the production of civilian goods on which those incomes can be spent, is decreasing. This excess of civilian spendingpower must in one way or another be tapped by direct controls; otherwise the possibilities of inflation will be unlimited.

The comparison with Australia is excellent. So far both countries -have been able to release credit to enable idle factories and unemployed persons to undertake war work, but clearly the situation is changing dangerously. Unfortunately, our leader laughs at inflation whereas the President of the United States of America has found that the inflationary measures which were adopted, in that country after the great depression ten years ago brought the United States of America out of its difficulties far more slowly than was the case with our system of combining deflation and inflation by what was known as the Premiers plan. To quote the New York Times, the President lias taken “ command of the fight against inflation “ and is battling against a politically-minded Congress to save the country from the dangers into which this country is rushing. I do not condemn a policy of credit release in all circumstances, for there may be circumstances in which that policy would be valuable and safe; but J believe that in both the United States of America and Australia at present government policy may be creating grave difficulties both for the war period and the subsequent reconstruction period. The following observations of the American Economic lie-view of last June apply to both countries: -

The tax revenue contemplated in the January budget message should be increased significantly if inflation is to be avoided. Price control and rationing are inadequate substitutes for anti-inflationary fiscal policies. Direct controls can be expected to forestall inflation only if the pressure against which they have to operate is held within rather narrow limits, and, only in this event, can we hope that the task of post-war construction will not be seriously aggravated by the aftermath of war finance.

I commend that statement to the careful consideration of all the members of the Joint Committee on Social Security.

The position, is much more satisfactory i.n Great Britain than it is in either the

United States of America or Australia. It is true that during the early months of the war Great Britain released an enormous amount of credit, and prices rose alarmingly; but prices in that country are not increasing to any great degree at present, and it appears as though inflation has been checked. According to the Economist, Great Britain’s financial figures show no inflationary gap for 1941-42, although other calculations indicate that there is the possibility of a gap of about £500,000,000, or about one-ninth of the national expenditure. In Australia, on the expenditure of last year, the gap is between one-fifth and one-sixth. Yet. the authorities in Great Britain are fully alive to the danger of inflation, as is shown by the following extract from the Economist -

Since the war began a further problem has arisen, and that is how to ensure that the real savings of the people, invested in Government war loans, may be adequate to cover the gap between estimated revenue and estimated expenditure. If this gap cannot be covered, inflation is inevitable.

As honorable gentlemen opposite do not appear to be happy in listening to these remarks, I shall not speak at much greater length. I recognize the difficulties of the Government. I also recognize that, in relation to such contentious subjects as credit release, there is room for a variety of opinions, and for considerable doubts, concerning ultimate results; but weighing the matter in the light of the overseas evidence and experience, I consider that this second Chifley budget is unworthy of our danger, unworthy of the austerity campaign, unworthy of the exhortations of the Prime Minister that we should strip ourselves to the stark level of subsistence, and certainly unworthy of the financial sacrifices which our British cousins are making, not only for themselves, but also for us. I wonder what the historian will say of this budget when the war clouds roll away, when the tumult and shouting dies, and when the reek of party politics subsides. I think that he may say that in the supreme crisis of our history, the Curtin Government ran true to Australian traditions and tried to get easy money by an immense gamble - by staking the financial stability of the country on a voluntary effort. If that gamble succeeds the historian will no doubt pen glowing sentences to the effect that the people of Australia rose to the occasion and justified democracy by their patriotism and unselfishness. I hope it may be so. But if the gamble fails, I fear that that historian may pen a sad condemnation of the weakness and lack of financial leadership of the Curtin Government. He may well write an epitaph in the glorious words of Milton -

I cannot praise a fugitive and cloistered virtue which slinks out of the race when the immortal garland is to he run for, not without dust and heat.

Mr ROSEVEAR:
Dalley

.- The honorable member for Boothby (Dr. Price) observed towards the close of his speech that the Opposition did not appear to be happy listening to him. I ask who could be happy listening to such doleful prognostications? Against the honorable member Hanrahan was a mere circumstance. The honorable gentleman reminds me of that notable character, Peter Doody, in the Arcadians, who tells a story of going to see a friend who was desperately ill. He stood by his friend’s bedside and remarked, “Well, Bill, they tells me you’re not long for this world. I have come round to cheer you up, hut I was thinkin’ as I was a’ com iii’ up them stairs what an awk’ard place it would bo to get a corfin out “. I have never heard the honorable, member say anything good about any budget. He could not even say anything good about the budget introduced by the government he supported. The one saving grace about the honorable gentleman’s speech was that after he had prophesied that the budget would be a dismal failure in achieving its declared intention of providing funds for carrying the war to a successful issue, he undertook to do everything possible on the public platform in order to make the Government’s proposals a success. In that respect, the honorable gentleman tried to redeem himself, but if he had had a genuine desire to promote the success of the budget, he would have expressed some faith in the people of Australia to do the things that the Government desired them to do.

It is true that, as a nation, we are passing into more difficult times. Our war expenditure last year was £319,000,000, which was £98,000,000 more than the estimate. It is possible that the estimated expenditure on the war this year will be exceeded, as it was exceeded last year, but no member of the Government or of the Opposition can say from day to day just what we shall have to meet. Certainly, we cannot look forward twelve months with any degree of assurance. The Government proposes this year to raise £205,000,000 in taxation from all sources as against £179,000,000 last year. The estimated expenditure for 1941-42 was £421,000,000, of which £320,000,000 was required for . war purposes, and £101,000,000 for other purposes. The estimated expenditure for this year is £549,000,000, although, as I say, no one can predict with any degree of accuracy what amount is likely to be required. The estimate provides for an increase of £12S,000,000 over the expenditure of last year. A deficiency of £211,000,000 between the estimated revenue and expenditure had to be financed last year from loan, and the Government succeeded in achieving that task. As even honorable gentlemen opposite have admitted that this year the people possess a greatly increased spending power, and are making greater savings than last year, it should not be beyond the bounds of reason to expect that the gap of £300,000,000 in the budget may be met from the sources suggested by the Treasurer, seeing that £211,000,000 was obtained from those sources last year. A good deal has been said about this gap of £300,000,000 between the estimated revenue from taxation and the estimated expenditure. All manner of ways of bridging the gap have been suggested. The right honorable member for Kooyong (Mr. Menzies) took the Treasurer to task because he said that as £120,000,000 had been raised from loan last year, we could, by doubling our effort, raise £240,000,000 this year from that source. The right honorable gentleman commended the Treasurer on his impeccable arithmetic, but observed that even the £240,000,000 would be £60,000,000 short of the requirements.

But I ask honorable members to consider what would have happened if the financial advice given by the Opposition last year had been accepted. Honorable gentlemen opposite proposed a plan that is referred to as post-war credits or compulsory loans for bridging the gap. It was suggested that £20,000.000 could be obtained from individuals and £5,000,000 from companies by compulsory loans, which would have given us a total of £25,000,000. But how far would that have gone to meet the need ? As a matter of fact, this new panacea for our financial ills would have got us only a very little distance towards our goal. How then, could the Fadden plan assist, to any great degree, to bridge the gap of £300,000,000 that has to be bridged this year? It has been the practice of Opposition members, from time to time, to make invidious comparisons between the tax burdens of the people of Great Britain and those of Australia. Honorable members opposite say that by putting the uniform tax scheme and the post-war credits scheme into operation simultaneously, the deficit could be immediately eliminated. What are the facts? I propose to place before honorable members some figures showing the taxes paid by citizens of Great Britain under a combined tax and post-war credits plan and the taxes paid by the people of Australia under the uniform tax plan oi. this Government. If honorable gentlemen study these figures, Chey will at once realize why the Opposition is anxious for the British scheme to be applied to Australia. The reason is, of course, that the British scheme would swat the poorer man in Australia just as it has done in Great Britain -

Honorable members will note that the difference becomes less as each higher range of income is reached -

I pause here to remark that in Great Britain the wealthier people escape more lightly. I wonder whether that actuates the desire of honorable members opposite to have the British scheme introduced in Australia ! What I have said is borne out by the figures that follow: -

Under the conservative Government of Great Britain, the whole scheme of taxation differs from that of the Labour Government of Australia in that the imposition on the lower ranges of income is less in Australia than in Great Britain, but on the higher ranges it is infinitely greater. Honorable members opposite overlook that if post-Avar credits were superimposed on the existing uniform taxation of Australia to equalize the taxes paid in Britain in the various ranges of income, the additional amount raised would be not more than £45,000,000. How much farther would that take us towards the bridging of the gap of £300,000,000?

It ha3 been said that the honorable member for Robertson (Mr. Spooner) has in mind another scheme under which he could raise £100,000,000. It is a wonder to me that he did not place it before the Fadden Government. Although he was a Minister in that Government, he allowed that government to submit to Parliament a plan for the raising of £25.000,000, upon which it was defeated, while having in his mind a plan under which he estimates that. £10,000,000 could be raised without batting an eyelid.

If we were to equalize our taxation with that of Great Britain, an additional £45,000,000 would be raised. If we were to apply the British rating principle of adding post-war credits to the taxation imposed, we would raise only an additional £30,000,000. Under the Fadden plan, £25,000,000 would have been raised. Under a scheme providing for taxation equal to that of Great Britain, the gap would still be £255,000,000. The adoption of the British rate of post-war credit would leave the gap at £270,000,000; and the adoption of the Fadden plan of last year would leave it at £275,000,000. Therefore, all these proposals merely amount to utterly futile criticism of a Government that is doing a better job for Australia than the sponsors of such proposals were capable of doing.

There is another scheme which has always been a pet subject of honorable members opposite. By some means, they have discovered that a section of the Australian community is untaxed. The aggregate annual income of that group is, they say, £550,000,000. They do not say how many millions of persons exist on that sum. They do not bother to let it be known that, the average income of that group is less than £3 a week. Yet they are continually hammering the Government because it will not seek to bridge the gap by imposing taxation on those people!

We have been told that post-war credits would provide a very useful nest-egg that could be redeemed after the war. The view that I offer is that the people would discover it to be an addled egg. Let us picture the post-war position. I wonder whether honorable members opposite try to look so far forward! In my opinion, they are so short-sighted that they take the toes of their shoes for the horizon.

Mr Archie Cameron:

– The honorable member’ cannot say what the post-war position will be like.

Mr ROSEVEAR:

– I am facing up to the fact that at present we have 500,000 persons in the munitions industry, and that it is proposed to transfer to that industry an additional 300,000 persons, which ‘will make a total of 800,000 persons who will be engaged in that occupation until the war ‘ finishes, if the number be not increased. There are approximately 500,000 men and women in our defence forces. Therefore, on the day on which war finishes there will be a total of 1,300,000 persons out of work. War production is maintained at the highest peak attainable in order to meet the demands of the times; it does not taper off towards the requirements of peace-time. By that, I mean that the day on which peace is signed production will be at -its maximum, and there will be no tapering off before peace arrives. Consequently, when peace has been declared, the whole of those people will be engaged exclusively on the production of munitions, and in the fighting services. If honorable members can tell me what munitions will be required on the day after peace has been declared, I shall agree that there is some prospect of a continuance of employment for them. It is true that for a period of twelve months after the termination of the war we shall be engaged on the repatriation of the men and women now in the fighting services. There will be some easement in that direction; but I submit that it will be more imaginary than real. On the day on which war terminates, civil production will be at its lowest ebb; because day after day avenues of civil production are being converted into avenues of war production. Therefore, planning for the post-war period ought to be undertaken now. I disagreed with the last Government, and I disagree with the present Government, in this respect, that instead of completely eliminating civil industries at least, a skeleton staff ought to be left to maintain them as going concerns. All of those industries that are closed owing to war necessities will not spring up like a mushroom so soon as peace has been declared. That position has to be faced. There will be what is known as a transition period, in which there will be a great deal of suffering in this country. The Opposition has said that in that period when unemployment will be at its maximum, post-war credits would be a useful nest-egg. How, exactly, would they be paid? In the year prior to the termination of the war, the people will be making large incomes. The cry at present is that many people are making much more than they ever made previously. But in the first year of the peace, hundreds of thousands of them will be without employment. How could they meet their taxation assessments on the incomes they had earned in the previous year ? Unless they could meet them in the first post-war year, where would the money be obtained with which to repay the post-war credits?

Mr Jolly:

– Would not the taxation be paid by instalments?

Mr ROSEVEAR:

– Where would the people get the money with which to pa the instalments? I am pointing out that in that post-war year hundreds of thousands of persons will be without income, and will consequently be unable to discharge their taxation assessments either in a lump sum or by instalments. The financial system as a whole may be likened to a dog chasing its tail. The more the people are taxed, obviously the less they have to lend. When the last budget was presented, I predicted that the raising of loans in future years would become more difficult. I believe that to be correct. The more people you drive out of tax-paying private industry into public institutions that are not taxpaying, the heavier will be the burden of any Treasurer to make ends meet. I believe that that was one of the thoughts that prompted the Government to stabilize taxation this year at last year’s figure, and to rely on the success of borrowing. If loans fail, it will be impossible to raise by taxation the whole of the amount that is needed, and the Government will have to resort to an increase of bank credit or “ tax and bust “ in the process of trying to make ends meet. Professors and their followers consider that the time is never opportune to do anything. To-day, when wealth is flowing freely throughout the land, and every body is making big wages or profits, the honorable member for Boothby says that this is not the time for inflation, because the people who were unemployed are working. I recall that in 1930, when one-half of the population was starving on the dole and the remainder was hanging to their jobs “ by the skin of their teeth “, the professors told us that the time was not opportune for inflation ; that what was wanted was “ reflation “. We heard a most remarkable analysis of the position to-night by the honorable member for Boothby. He referred to a period of “ reflation “, which I understood to mean something between deflation and inflation. He told us that it was a combination of inflation and deflation once know as the “Premiers plan”. What is the appropriate time for an increased amount of bank credit to be made available to the community? This, we are told, should not be done during a depression, because then there are too many unemployed. Nor should it be done during times like the present, because now there are not sufficient unemployed ! I believe that the Government will be forced, and, if honorable members opposite were on this side, they too would be forced, to use an increased amount of bank credit as the solu- tion of the financial problems of the country. We are looking hopefully to the people to subscribe to the war loans, in order to bridge the financial gap, and we have adopted the slogan “austerity”. I have not much faith in slogans. Ten years or more’ ago, a similar slogan was adopted during the depression then experienced, when half of the population was on the dole and the other half was hanging on “ by the skin of their teeth “ to whatever jobs they had. A different kind of austerity was preached to us then by the professors. They then said that the workers were spending too much, although half of them had nothing to spend. It was said that it would be necessary to adopt the hybrid scheme about which the honorable member for Boothby talks, and it was decided to adopt the “ Premiers plan “. As the workers were thought to be spending too much, it was decided to reduce their wages by 20 per cent., and to reduce invalid and old-age pensions by 12-J- per cent. The policy in the last depression was to preach austerity to people who were already compelled by circumstances to be austere. As the workers are now earning good wages, they are now told that they are getting too much, and ni,us therefore practice austerity. I desire to know when the workers will receive a fair deal.

For twelve months I was a member of the Man Power and. Resources Survey Committee, in which capacity I travelled throughout Australia. I obtained a wealth of knowledge for myself and tried to impart it to others, but the reports of the committee have been pigeon-holed. If austerity were practised in the expenditure of government funds on the war effort, if there were less expenditure on elaborate establishments for people engaged in the war effort, and for which the Government will never be paid, if less elaborate furnishings were provided for the departments set up from time to time, and if exploitation of the Government under the cost-plus system were prevented, austerity would be practised in the proper way. If we had austerity in the expenditure of government funds austerity would not be necessary at the other end of the scale. The only alternative left to the Government is to resort to the use of bank credit. The Government hopes to raise £300,000,000 by means of loans. I wish the Government well, but I shall not preach austerity to the workers in my electorate, half of whom were starving during the last depression. In one part of my electorate I saw a factory being built of elaborate brickwork which, when equipped, will cost £250,000, whilst on the opposite side of the street were the slums. How can I tell the people who have been compelled to live in those slums to be austere, when elaborate buildings for which the Government will never be paid are being erected? I should prefer to go out of public life rather than tell those people to be austere. The bogy of inflation has been raised. The workers may have more money at present, but there are fewer goods on which they can spend it. It is also true that when the supply of goods is short and money is plentiful, prices rise, but that could be prevented by government action. The right honorable member for Kooyong (Mr. Menzies) warned me that my electors would be looking for me later, when the effects of inflation were being felt and they were crying out f ot food. The right honorable gentleman may talk about ray electors crying out for food, but Australia is crying out for scrap iron to-day, although when he was in power a great deal of it was sent out of the country. If the people were asked to choose between .those who would provide them with food and those who supplied war material to the enemy, I know. whom they would prefer.

I have spoken on the man-power problem until I am sick and tired of it, yet the fact remains that there is too much divided authority in Australia to-day with regard to this matter. There is no central guidance or direction. Take first the Army. The Minister for the Army (Mr. Forde) recently stated that extra men are being called up daily, until the number of men considered necessary by the military advisers has beeen secured. So far as the Minister is concerned, we have not a central authority giving instructions as to how many men shall be called up, but as many men a3 the military authorities require, irrespective of the needs of other sections of the community, are to be provided. In the Navy and the Air Force we have voluntary enlistment, but a demand is still being made on the man-power resources without regard to the needs of the other services and industry. The Prime Minister stated recently that if it came to a choice between well-trained soldiers and “ tucker “, we should have to go without “ tucker “. Of course, the Prime Minister is entitled to express that view.

Mr Curtin:

– What I said was that, if I had to make a choice between being short of men in the next six months, and being short of ** tucker “ a year from now, I would take the risk of being short of “ tucker

Mr ROSEVEAR:

– I accept that correction, but I think that the implication, remains. If it comes to a choice between a shortage of men or a shortage of “ tucker “, the Prime Minister would leave the people short of “ tucker”.. The first question is whether the men being called up are being, or can be, properly equipped, and whether they are being properly trained. I seriously question whether they are. If we have not thu things with which to equip them properly, they would be better engaged in the manufacture of munitions, or in providing foodstuffs for the people. Are we to allow the Army to call the tune and say how many men are to be called up, without regard to the requirements of the community? If so, the time will come when both soldiers and civilians will be without “ tucker “. Therefore, I do not consider that the choice is between soldier* and “ tucker “. The choice is between a properly-controlled system for the utilization of man-power and the present haphazard method under which various authorities that have been set up grab men right and left, without regard to the requirements of other sections of the community.

I have already said that- austerity should be practised in government departments. I have attacked the Allied Works Council, and I have been castigated for it, but every opinion that I have expressed can be substantiated. I said that men were being taken off the graving dock in hundreds, and that the dock was an essential piece of work. Nobody will deny that, with the prospect of increased naval warfare in the south-west Pacific, the clocking facilities in Australia are inadequate, and that the work of erecting the graving dock should be regarded as one of first priority. The ministerial reply is that the dock is now under the control of the Allied Works Council. lc has been under the control of that body for a very short period, but that does not alter the fact that men are being taken from that, work, which ought to have first priority. I criticized the methods of book-keeping, and the distribution of vouchers, and I have proof in my pocket that vouchers were given to the wives of men who were not even entitled to be called up by the Allied Works Council. The Minister for the Interior (Senator Collings) replied to my criticism as follows : - i

In the House of Representatives recently, the honorable member for Dalley declared that the Allied Works Council was interfering with the work of important government undertakings in New South Wales, that it had taken mcn off work at the graving dock, and had seriously upset the staffing position there. In making this charge, Mr. Rosevear was obviously unaware of the facts. First, the graving dock is a job which comes entirely under the control of the Allied Works Council. Therefore, the council can scarcely be accused of interfering with its own job “. Secondly, the decision to take certain men away was made by the service chiefs, who instructed the Allied Works Council that a number of men were required for certain works which were regarded as of even higher priority than the graving dock. The service chiefs indicated that, if necessary, to secure the numbers required, men should be taken off the graving dock. Naturally, some interference with the work of the dock occurred as a result. Work was not, however, stopped in any section, and action to restore the former position us promptly as possible was taken immediately.

Of course, when from 200 to 300 .men were taken off the job, there was interfer ence with the work.

With regard to pay vouchers, the Minister remarked -

The honorable member for Dalley also stated that a lax book-keeping system was endangering government funds. He alleged that vouchers entitling wives of members of the Civil Construction Corps to £6 a fortnight were being distributed ti> dependants of persons who were not members nf the Civil Construction Corps.

That is not correct. I have before me a oncher which was sent to a woman whose husband was not a member of the’ Civil Constructional Corps, was not associated with the Allied Works Council, and was not even eligible to be called up for work under that body. As to the wastage of manpower, I cite the case of a man who was instructed by the Allied Works Director to remain in Sydney on his present job. His wife was given one of those vouchers which in certain circumstances would entitle her to £6 a fortnight. That man has part of his wages paid by the Maritime Services Board, while £6 a fortnight is paid by the Allied Works Council, and. I understand that this applies to thousands of other men working in and around Sydney. I can understand the payment of an allowance to a man’s wife if he is with the fighting forces, or if he is sent to work in another part of the country, but I cannot see why a man who has been told to stay in his job in Sydney should have part of his wages paid by the Maritime Services Board, and the rest paid by the Allied Works Council. Why should the men working for the Allied Works Council be paid by two separate authorities in this way ? If that is not a shameful waste of man-power I do not know what is. I said, further, that men had been called up and sent to distant places where they were engaged upon work for which they were unfitted, and that they were not in physical condition to stand the rigours of the climate. The Minister replied to this charge as follows : -

The honorable member for Dalley .further complained that men called up would not be capable of standing up to hard work under the conditions of a summer in north Australia. In this connexion, I know that particular care has been taken, in sending men to Queensland, to send only those men who have regularly been engaged on work of a nature similar to that on which they will be employed when they go north. We have not sent any men who have been called up from other occupations, and it is a fair assumption that nien who, over a long period, have been engaged either as plant operators or labourers, without physical ill effects becoming apparent, should be considered at such a critical time as the present, to be capable of continuing to perform this work, even in the north, for a period of three months.

There is no mistaking what the Minister meant. He meant that the men who are sent to the north are always put on work similar to that on which they had been previously engaged. As a matter of fact. I have made representations on behalf of three men who, up to the time of their being called up, had been commercial travellers, and 1 should be very surprise.! if the Minister could prove to me thai they are now being employed upon work similar to their ordinary occupation. Here is a letter which I received to-day from one of my constituents - 1 appeal to you to continue your justified attack on the Allied Works Council as I have just had the experience of being humiliated at their Pitt-street office. 1 have been in business in one of Sydney’s suburbs for the past seventeen years, and am now 53 years of agc and in response to a notice from the Civil Constructional office in Pitt-street called the other day at 9.30 a.m., and after being handed on from one official to another, and finally to a doctor, who by the way, took my blood pressure only, was directed to report at 8 a.m. the next day to the graving dock (very aptly named), and on reporting was handed a pick and shovel to do my war effort. I will not bore you with the details of my effort, suffice to say that I hardly did any work, and am lead to believe that 1 am to bc paid at the rate of £1 a day for such work, which I can assure you, was 19s. (id. wasted by some one. My main reason for writing is not to complain of such generosity, lint to give you a list of names of men I saw in the Pitt-street office, and leave it to you to confirm same. After what I saw, is it any wonder the office cannot run any industrial undertaking?

That letter provides further evidence that men are not properly examined before being sent away to jobs, and that they are being put on work to which they have not been accustomed. The Minister confirms my accusation that men are torn away from their families after beinggiven only 48 hours’ notice to report at Central Railway- Station. Indeed, I understand that in Victoria, they are sometimes given only 24 hours’ notice. The Minister stated that special magistrates had been appointed, and that apparently I knew nothing of it. As a matter of fact, I did know about it, though the fact is that they have been appointed only recently. When one of my clients was presenting his case, the appeals officer was none other than the famous Peter Cruise. Referring to my charges, the Minister said that their gravity lay in their utter irresponsibility, and not in their substance. Two nights after I made my speech on the subject of the Allied Works Council, the Sydney Trades and Labour Council passed a resolution demanding an investigation into the operations of the council. Are we to understand from the Minister’s statement that all the members of the Trades and Labour Council have gone berserk, and are to be regarded as irresponsible ( Are we to believe that Mr. Arthur blakeley went berserk and was irresponsible when he found it impossible to work with Mr. Theodore and Lieutenant Packer i Does the Minister wish us to believe that- Mr. Reginald Windsor, a man well known and respected in the Public Service, was irresponsible because he could no longer continue to work in the Sydney office? Isit to be assumed that such a man would throw up his job for no reason whatever f Were all the Australian Workers Union officials who complained of camp conditions irresponsible persons? Here is an extract from a letter which I received from a union organizer -

I thank you for your attack upon the mismanaged state of affairs of the mail-DOW tops. As an organizer of builders labourers unions 1 see the chaotic state of affairs of St. -Mary’s and Villa Wood - well go and have a look at. it for yourself and see the unfinished state of this plant. Our men are treated like donkeys, transported here- and there, while thousands of loafers and slackers hang about the city doing nil.

Are we to assume that he, too, is irresponsible? [Extension of time granted.] The Minister makes some very grave charges against the secretary of the Australian Builders Labourers Union, a man who represents many thousands of workers. This is what the Minister said -

Another form of criticism is directed against camp conditions of members of the Civil Constructional Corps. In recent weeks, severe criticism of so-called “ Stone Age “ condition.at Koto Camp received much publicity. I have investigated this case very thoroughly. The outcry undoubtedly originated with Mr. W. F. Thomas, general secretary, Australian Builders Labourers Federation, who declared that most meat was inadequate, frequently fly-blown, vegetables scarce, bread mouldy, cookhouse insanitary, sleeping quarters most unsatisfactory, sanitary arrangements disgraceful, recreation-room unsuitable, washing facilities inadequate, first-aid supplies unsatisfactory. Notice that all the facilities exist - the criticism generally being that they are not good enough. Mr. Thomas is paid for that sort of thing. Naturally, he will discover and magnify any flaws which he can. I know thai the camps are not perfect, but I also know that they aTe as good as they can be made under the circumstances. Much of the work to be done by the Civil Constructional Corps is of a very urgent nature.There is no time to build elaborate permanent camps, but the camps which are built compare veryfavorably indeed with the type of construction camp accepted in pre-war days. The men themselves appreciate the difficulties, and accept them cheerfully and patriotically. The men on the job rarely complain. It is only the outsider who comes looking for trouble who makes a fuss. Mr. Thomas made a violent outburst against conditions atRoto Camp on the 27th August. On the 31st August a mass meeting of the men expressed resentment of the recent press criticism, and resolved unanimously to write to the Allied Works Council expressing complete satisfaction at the council’s efforts to adjust difficulties and provide comforts for the men. The men themselves went so far as to repudiate certain of Mr. Thomas’s demands, stating that they preferred the arrangements previously existing. The tactics employed by Mr. Thomas can do little good, but they are capable of doing a very great deal of damage by destroying harmonious relations between the men and those officers responsible for their welfare.

The Minister also castigates Mr. Hansford, the union organizer. The Minister did attend a meeting of indignation held yesterday in the Sydney Trades Hall, and it was said that he bearded the lion in its den. As a matter of fact, all the “bearding” he has ever done was to grow some on his chin. At the meeting he contented himself with repudiating the statements which he had previously made, and which have been recorded in Hansard. I have a copy here, andI propose to see that there is no sub-editing of them -

In connexion with Civil Constructional Corps camp conditions, let me quote here an un solicited testimonial from Sir Archibald Howie, managing director of Howie, Moffat and Company Proprietary Limited, Sydney.

The Minister takes refuge behind what he calls an unsolicited testimonial and his remarks are worth quoting. Sir Archibald Howie was last in the public eye when he, with some others, was called before a royal commission to explain his conduct in regard to the disposal of the State brick works. As a matter of fact, royal commissions seem to have hung around the necks of a number of persons associated with the Allied Works Council, even as the albatross was hung around the neck of the Ancient Mariner - very smellful. He accepts Sir Archibald Howie’s views and uses them against union officials. The time has come for a clean-up of the office of the

Allied Works Council in Sydney. Unless something is done about it very soon there will probably have to be another royal commission. If the Minister wants the names of these persons associated with the council, and something of their reputations, my correspondent can supply the information. In his letter he states that one of them was a startingprice bookmaker, who called himself a turf commissioner. He now holds a responsible position. Another wasa friend of the one to whom I have just referred. He is an ex-bookmaker, and is now a professional punter. Another is a notorious North Sydney startingprice bookmaker, who still operates the largest starting-price office on the North Shore. Another is a bookmaker who operates at dog meetings because he lost his licence to bet at horse races for failing to meet his liabilities. There is also another bookmaker who operates at dog races who has not been allowed on any race course for fifteen years. He is a noted “ urger “ who is well known to the police and racecourse detectives. Those are a few who have sheltered there, and are bringing the name of the Government and of the Labour party into disrepute. The sooner these people are dealt with the better it will be for the country. I can substantiate all the statements that I have made, with the exception of the contents of that letter. I have not mentioned names for two reasons : first, I have no desire to give to these people an advertisement, and, secondly, I have no desire to use names improperly. I shall, however, give the information to the Minister, and shall demand that the whole position be cleared up.

Mr JOLLY:
LILLEY, QUEENSLAND · UAP

.- I listened with interest to the speech of the honorable member for Dalley (Mr. Rosevear), who correctly described himself as a candid critic, for he spent half his time criticizing the Opposition and the other half criticizing the Government. He had “ a bit both ways “. Although he dealt with certain financial aspects of the budget and criticized both the Opposition and the Government in this connexion, he did not make any suggestion as to how the money required could be raised otherwise, except by some fantastic means.

My main concern in considering the budget is whether it represents the maximum war effort of which this country is capable. The position confronting Australia bo-day is so desperate that the only limitation of our war effort should be the physical capacity of the nation. !No objection is likely to be taken by this Parliament, or by the people, to the war expenditure provided for in the budget, the only question being what is the best and most equitable means of raising the colossal sum required. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Fadden) spoke truly when he said that the budget is too much of a gamble, because it leaves so much to chance. The budget reveals a gap of £300,000,000 which has to be bridged. The Treasurer (Mr. Chifley) says - and last year’s experience supports his prediction - (that the amount may be increased before the end of the year. “We may find ourselves called upon to raise even £400,000,000. The Government proposes to raise that huge sum on a voluntary basis! I submit that that is an unsound financial policy, as it leans too much on central bank credit. It is interesting to note the degree to which we have relied on this method of finance since the outbreak of war. In June, 1939, the total treasury bills issued were valued at £60,000,000; at the end of June, 1942, their value was £138,000,000. That increase of £78,000,000 took place last year, and it is clear that, unless some definite arrangement is made, the experience of last year will be repeated this year, only to a greater degree. As I have said, the gap of £300,000,000 indicated by the Treasurer is likely to be as much as £400,000,000 before the end of the financial year. In his speech the Treasurer drew attention to the danger of inflation through too great use of central bank credit, but some honorable members opposite believe that only by the use of such credit will it be ‘possible to finance the war and conduct the affairs of the country. Some time ago the Premier of one of the Canadian Provinces asked his treasury officials to investigate a certain system of social credit. After a thorough examination they reported that if the scheme worked, no one else would work. I liken central bank credit to fire and water, which, while being good servants, are hard masters.

Mr Conelan:

– Bank credit will not get out of control while the present Government is in office.

Mr JOLLY:

– For the benefit of the honorable member for Griffith (Mr. Conelan), I repeat that treasury-bills - which represent the degree to which we lean on central bank credit - have increased from £60,000,000 -to £138,000,000 since the war began. That increase took place during the last twelve months.

Mr Conelan:

– “What is the gap in the budget of Great Britain?

Mr JOLLY:

– At the moment, 1 am dealing with the Australian budget. It must be obvious to any person who takes more than a passing interest in our financial affairs that undue reliance on new credit at a time like this, when the goods and services available are conisderably reduced, constitutes a grave danger and must result in inflation. Those are my words, but the Treasurer says the same thing in different language in his budget speech.

In addition to the £7S,000,000 of central bank credit last year, the note issue during the same period increased by £30,000,000. As I believe that this method of finance will play an important part in connexion with the war, I am of the opinion that the note issue should come more directly under the control of the Parliament. The Commonwealth Bank Act, which provides for the note issue, requires the Commonwealth Bank Board to submit a report on the note issue to the Treasurer from time to time. I suggest that the board should be required to submit a report to the Parliament also at least once a quarter. I hope that the Treasurer will take that suggestion into consideration.

If borrowing is to bc a major factor in financing the war, it should be done on a compulsory basis. There are ample funds available to meet the demands of the Government, but those funds need proper mobilizing. A compulsory system would distribute the burden more equitably. Some persons in the community contribute to war loans to the point of sacrifice, even going- so far as to borrow money for <ihe purpose, whilst others make no response at all. Persons on the lower ranges of salaries should contribute something, but under present conditions many who are in a position to contribute fail to do so. The Government should require all sections of the community to contribute according to their ability. If we are to rely on loans to any considerable degree for the financing of the war, we should resort to compulsion.

One pleasing feature of this year’s war expenditure is that, for the most part, the money will be expended in Australia. The problem of financing the war would certainly have been more difficult had we not organized our industries so that it is now possible to manufacture in Australia many things which before the war were imported. The war will make the people of this country more self-reliant. f shall not deal at length with the financial position of this country, as the ground has already been well covered by other speakers. I shall merely say that, in my opinion, the Government is relying too much on voluntary contributions by the people. If we are to keep our finances in a sound position, a system of compulsory loans must be introduced immediately.

There is urgent need for a thorough overhaul of our taxation laws. It is true that in future there is to be uniformity throughout the Commonwealth in relation to income tax, but that fact makes an overhaul of the whole system of taxation the more necessary, because many of the provisions now in force were framed to meet a position when both the Commonwealth and the States imposed income tax. It is not enough bo have uniformity as between States; there must be equity as between individuals. Under existing conditions, some taxpayers are called upon to bear a heavy burden, whilst others escape lightly. Moreover, there are instances of double taxation. 1 draw attention to the heavy taxes levied on private companies which, for the most part, are owned and controlled by two or three persons engaged in a business undertaking. The application of the undistributed profits tax operates harshly against private companies, as the tax may absorb the whole of the profits and cause financial embarrassment to the company because of its inability to create reserves. I have previously cited instances of private companies which have paid in taxes more than their net profit for a year. The object of taxing the whole of the undistributed profits of a private company is that, should the company not declare a dividend and distribute money to shareholders, it would be placed on the same footing as a partnership; but I point out that a private company has to pay a flat rate of 6s. in the £1 whilst profits in the hands of shareholders are taxed at the property rate. For taxation purposes, private companies should be placed on exactly- the same basis as partnerships. I trust that the Government will be able to see its way clear, at an early date, to make a thorough overhaul of our present taxation laws, because many of the existing provisions were framed to meet the dual position of Commonwealth and State government acts.

I now direct attention to an absurdity which strains unduly our already overtaxed transport system. In Brisbane, goods from New South Wales .and Victoria have been unloaded from a ship, which then proceeds to load exactly the same class of goods for consignees in the southern States. This ridiculous condition of affairs imposes an unjustified strain upon shipping space, and causes an unnecessary employment of labour. The Minister should discuss with the Central Cargo Control Committee the problem of this wasteful interstate traffic.

As Queensland had been regarded as vulnerable to enemy attack, and therefore unsuitable for the establishment of munitions plants, I have urged that the factories in that State should concentrate on the manufacture of essential goods. Unfortunately, no organized action was taken, with the result that many essential commodities, which could be made in Queensland, are being imported from the southern States. If factories in Queensland were given this work, it would relieve the strain upon the transport system.

I shall now briefly discuss several items in the Estimates, because I know from experience that, when the general debate has concluded, the Estimates will be passed quickly, and honorable members will have little opportunity to discuss them. The vote in respect of national fitness has been increased from £18,000 last year to £72,000 for the current financial year. Although I do not object to this expenditure, I suggest that Parliament should obtain a report of the activities of this organization, so that honorable members will have an opportunity of assessing its worth. I should also like some information about the Commonwealth Grants Commission, the annual vote for which has been increased from £5,000 to £7,000. I cannot understand why, at this stage, expenditure upon the commission should be increased by nearly 50 per cent., and I am wondering whether its functions have been extended.

I take this opportunity to urge the necessity for greater co-ordination between Commonwealth and State departments regarding certain activities. For example, each State publishes a Y ear-Booh, and a good deal of the information contained in the report of the Commonwealth Grants Commission is to be found in the Commonwealth Y ear-Book. The Government should consider the advisability of abolishing this duplication by co-ordinating this statistical data. Instead of publishing seven Year-Books annually, the Commonwealth and States should arrange for the Commonwealth Government to undertake the work. That would save man-power, and reduce the cost of printing.

Mr Calwell:

– There has been an amalgamation in Tasmania.

Mr JOLLY:

– I am pleased to hear it. Economies could be effected in many other directions. For example, the Government should overhaul the various departments which, in many instances, are performing unnecessary work. Many of the reports which are being published could be suspended for the duration of the war. The British Government has already taken this action, and the Commonwealth Government could, with advantage, follow its example. The compilation and printing of such reports require man-.power, and the cost is considerable. Business people consider that, while the Commonwealth Government enforces the man-power regulations rigidly against their undertakings, it neglects to apply them to its departments. If a careful examination were made of the Commonwealth and State public services, man-power could be released for useful war-work.

– I assume that some of the work previously undertaken by the Department of Information has been transferred to the censorship section. The cost of the taxation offices has risen from £382,000, in 1941, to £1,174,000 this year. This increase is due to the introduction of the uniform income tax scheme. I should like the Treasurer to inform me the exact saving that will be made as between the Commonwealth and State governments, as the result of the Commonwealth becoming the sole income taxing authority.

– Remember what they had to say about “ Fisher’s flimsies “.

M,r. CALWELL.- They called our note issue “ Fisher’s flimsies “. Yet it was that note issue which helped us to finance the last war and paid for the building of the east-west railway. It will help us to finance this war without paying interest to bondholders if we are courageous enough to use it.

Other people beside the Governor of New South Wales are telling the common people what they ought to do. A former Governor of Victoria, Lord Somers, formed Somers camp, to which he invited each year a certain number of public school boys and a certain number of youths from factories. The scheme was an imitation of one initiated by the then Duke of York - the present King. It worked all right for a number of years, but there was a plot behind it on the part of a number of people in this community who saw in it an opportunity to capture the minds of working class youths. As time passed, this organization became a little more rabid, and on the 1st June last Dr. C. Gordon McAdam, described as Camp Chief, in a circular, Power Home, expressed the following views : -

At the moment Australia would seem to bc lacking in three great essentials - leadership, spiritual inspiration and discipline. By its own choosing our Government is not an allAustralian government but a Labour Government. It is not representative of all the people but. of a section only and that section, on the showing of the last election, a minority. Moreover, the Government cannot or will not forget that it is a Labour Government with plunks in its platform close to the heart of the Labour movement but in many cases having little or no relation to the one great question of tile hour - the winning of the war. Surely the present calls for a united effort on the part of every one! Surely contentious matters should be left to more peaceful and reasonable times. . . . Bleatings for help go forth to the United States of America, and when this help is forthcoming it is made perfectly clear that no universal trainee will bc sent out of Australia at any time to the assistance of this one of our allies or any oilier. If you care to volunteer to do your duty to your God and your country, that’s your affair, but no one is compelled to do his duty. And many of the youth of to-day, mean, selfish and cowardly, fail to see their duty.

He then offered the following opinion of the women of this country : -

Greasy, flaming, carmine lips, painted cheeks, distorted, tinted nails have replaced the freshness, beauty and charm of the natural woman. Many mothers and wives rate the safety of their sons and husbands above their honour and their courage. There is no spiritual inspiration or discipline here. Australia has little to be proud of in this generation.

That sort of talk comes perilously close to fifth column talk. He continued -

In spite of our sneering youth, ignorant and untutored politicians, Britain has done something for the glory of the world and our Empire remains, thanks be to God and His instrument, England, an inspiration to all true men.

There is a lot of truth in Dr. Johnson’s dictum, “ Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel “. A lot of people waving the flag to-day are persons for whom the general community should have no regard at all. This man, who tries to ingratiate himself by a free use of the name of the Deity and attempts to make himself the only custodian of loyalty in this country, is beneath contempt. I instanced that as further evidence that there is a fairly widespread conspiracy against the Labour movement and the control that this Government, for good or ill, is exercising. I have said that the Government is not doing all that I should like it to do, but the people who want a change want it not so that the masses shall have better social laws, but so that the control shall revert to the people who have dominated this country for years. One would imagine that there is an inherent evil in credit expansion; that it is something that decent people speak about with bated breath and something with which no self-respecting politician would associate his name. Yet in a speech delivered in 1939 before the Constitutional Association of Australia, the former Premier of New South Wales, Sir Bertram Stevens, recommended -

That the Commonwealth Government should consider the advisability of an early expansion of credit to enable all able-bodied men in Australia to be given full-time employment on essential works, preferably of a defence nature.

Nobody repudiated Sir Bertram Stevens then. There was nothing wrong with that sentiment from my point of view.

Mr Martens:

– No other honorable member has quoted that recommendation.

Mr CALWELL:

– That is so. In case that is not sufficient, I shall quote a report from the Melbourne Age of 28th August, 1940, which states -

The Young Nationalists’ Organization carried a motion with regard to war finance, advocating that, in order to preserve an equitable distribution of income and wealth, the financial burden of. the war should be spread in the following way: - (4.) To facilitate post-war reconstruction, a suitable part of the loan money raised during the war should be redeemed by a capital levy at the conclusion of hostilities.

Australia as an example to be emulated in Great Britain.

Mr CALWELL:

– If that is so, they are perfectly correct. There areother people besides British publicists who see in our war effort something to admire. An American correspondent named Hallett Abend was recently in Australia and has just published a book entitled Ramparts of the Pacific. According to the Melbourne Sun of last Saturday week, he says that the unions in Australia have retarded war production only very slightly. The Sun adds -

He singles out Australia’s air effort as the most striking of the country’s” almost incredible records in war effort of achievement “.

The honorable member for Inch, who was Minister for Air, ought at least to know these facts, and to have spoken of them when chidinghis own countrymen for failing to do as well as the British people have done. In the Melbourne Herald of the 8th March, 1941, under the heading of “ Women Slackers “, the Herald special service sent the following facts from London : -

Girls filling Lake District cinemas, tea-shops and cafes, yet refusing to assist the war effort, are denounced by the Auxiliary Transport Service Company Commander.. Vera Lewis, who has just completed a fortnight’s recruiting drive through Cumberland. Westmoreland and North Lancashire. “None volunteered,’’ she said, “ yet there are hundreds of leisured women in these districts. It is a disgusting and disgraceful situation.”

None of these people that I have mentioned this evening is a friend or supporter of the Australian Labour party, and I cite their opinions in refutation of the slanders on this country uttered by many members of the Opposition, particularly the honorable member for Indi.

– Many United- Australia party supporters are simpleminded people. Let me tell honorable gentlemen what happened in this case. This candidate joined the Army a few days before the poll and was discharged from it a few days afterwards; but he was proclaimed as a digger candidate. Canvassers for the United Australia party went to people whom, perhaps for some physical reason, they took to be United Australia party supporters and said : “ Do not forget to vote for the digger candidate”. The alleged digger candidate polled about ‘7,000 votes in a working-class electorate, and the Labour candidate polled only about 10,000 votes. The circumstances of that occasion are not likely to be repeated.

My point is that communism continues to be propagated. The honorable member for Hume had a good deal to say about what he called the evils of communism, but he stood behind the previous Government in the depression years and helped it to create conditions which make communists. Lenin said on one occasion that it was not possible to have a revolution without having a revolutionary situation, and it was not possible to have a revolutionary situation unless the people were made into revolutionaries by the treatment they received. Everything that the United Australia party Government d-id during the depression years was calculated to create a revolutionary spirit and therefore to propagate communism in this country. The United Australia party Government in the depression years denied people the basie wage. That was true in every State except Queensland. In some States the workers who worked only one week in three were paid the basic wage. During the weeks when they did not receive the wage they were expected to exist, with their wives and children, in a state of semi-starvation. The wonder is not that there are so many Communists in Australia to-day, but that there are so few. Communism is not an absolutely evil thing. There are- some great truths enshrined in its doctrines. If there were not some truths in communism it would not make any appeal to the people. It is impossible to propagate a political philosophy unless there is some truth in it. If it were otherwise Amee Semple McPhersonism and- other crank religions which seem to flourish in America would sweep across the world. Communism makes converts because its adherents preach the doctrine that the great mass of the people are being exploited by that section of the community which owns and controls the means of production, distribution and exchange. Speeches such as that delivered by the honorable member for Hume do nothing to solve the problems of this country; they merely encourage all kinds of “ isms “ without making any contribution towards the solution of current social problems. If we desire to introduce a new order we must take note of what is being said by people who are studying the problems of post-war reconstruction. At the synod of the Anglican Diocese of Grafton, held on the 16th September, 1942, one of the speakers had some telling words to say on this subject. These were reported in the Sydney Morning Herald of the 17th September as follows: -

People asked whether a new order was necessary. The answer was in the slums of great cities and the sub-standard houses, and the spectacle of people starving in the midst of plenty.

Those words are undeniably true. If we want a new order we must get rid of the slums in our cities, and inaugurate an era of social justice. If we do that we need have no fear of communism or any other “ ism “. I bring to the notice of honorable members, also, a letter by the Bishop of Goulburn,” Dr. E. H.

Burgmann, M.A., which was published irc the Sydney Morning Herald on the 21st April, 194/2, under the heading “ Unity and Workers “. Dr. Burgmann was replying to the criticism of people whospoke about the strikes that occasionally occur in this country.

Mr Ryan:

– Occasionally ?

Mr CALWELL:

– Yes ; occasionally in comparison with the number of strikes that occur in the coal-fields districts of Great Britain. We also have far fewer strikes in Australia than occur in the anthracite mines in America, for instance.

Mr Ryan:

– That is incorrect. I shall give the honorable member some statistics on that point later.

Mr BLACKBURN:

– It is correct.

Mr CALWELL:

– I have no objection to the holding of a secret sitting with the honorable member on that or any other subject. The Bishop of Goulburn wrote -

This emphasis on the strikes and the neglect of Labour’s positive achievement creates the worst possible atmosphere in which to get this nation working. It is a bad heritage from a bad past, and we should change our whole attitude to the worker and his work. Unless we do there is little hope of getting the best out of our nation, and surely these times need the best. We all want to eliminate strikes, but to do so effectively we must see all the facts clearly.

First of all, it is clear that the workers must win this war or it will not be won at all. People who write letters about strikes make very few guns or bombs. We can at least give our gratitude to those who do. Further, the bulk of the Army is recruited from the ranks of the workers. The workers provide the main body of the munition makers. Other classes give important and indispensable help, and we have no intention of being unfair to them while trying to get a sense of justice towards the workers. But primarily this is a workers’ war. It is being waged for the freedom of the workers of the world. Now if these facts were stressed in our propaganda we would begin to build up a mighty sentiment of loyalty and enthusiasm in the hearts of our workers, which would in time alter the whole feeling of the country. The only people who can effectively discipline the workers are the workers themselves. This is true in wai or in peace. The history of compulsion in this country is most significant on this point. Unless the workers as a whole feel that justice demands it compulsion will fail.

The right reverend gentleman concluded with these words -

We need a change of heart in those who speak and write as well as in those who do not work. To those who do work and who do fight we want to give our warm-hearted gratitude. They and they alone are saving this nation from invasion and the world for freedom.

I commend those observations to honorable gentlemen apposite who are so prone to indulge in fatuous and unfair criticism of the workers of Australia. I often wonder how many honorable gentlemen opposite have worked in a mine. I have not done so, nor have I any desire to do it. From what I have been told by the honorable members for Newcastle (Mr. Watkins) and Hunter (Mr. James), honorable members opposite would do well to try to trudge their way along a narrow passage, with an arched back, carrying their tools of trade, their food, and other impedimenta, for up to 5 miles in a coal-mine, in order to reach the face at which they had to dig the coal that this nation needs to-day. The Minister for Labour and National Service (Mr. Ward) recently told a meeting at the Paddington Town Hall that he had recommended to Cabinet that the coal-mines of Australia be nationalized, but that Cabinet had refused to accept his recommendation. I hope that Cabinet will reconsider its decision, and accept the recommendation; because, when the profit motive has been taken out of the mining industry, when miners have been given work above the surface and the mines have been mechanized in an up-to-date manner, a good deal of the existing human suffering and misery will be eliminated.

There are deficiencies in this budget in addition to the several with which I have already dealt. It does not propose to institute a scheme of marriage loans. If young people are to be encouraged to marry early in life and to rear large families, we must have a system of marriage loans. One factor that has impressed upon us the need for a large population is the imminent danger we are in of attack by the Japanese. I stated on a previous occasion that Australia will not continue to be a white man’s country even if we win this war, unless it has a population of approximately 40,000,000.

There is no provision in the budget for the scrapping of the cost-plus system. So long as there is the profit motive in industry there will be grounds for complaints such as those to which utterance has been given in this Parliament from time to time. Mr. G. D. H. Cole, a wellknown Labour man in England, wrote a pamphlet on Private Monopoly or Public Service, from which I quote the following passage: -

For do not forget that throughout the inter-war period the first thought of nearly all the great capitalist combines had been to prevent, and not to stimulate, production. The aim of almost every combine had been, not merely to prevent fresh competitors from entering the trade, but to drive out of it as many as possible of those who were in it already. It had been discovered that the safest- many said the only - way of maintaining profits was to keep goods scarce and prices high. In the sacred name of “ rationalization “, works regarded as “ redundant “ had been bought up and razed to the ground, or otherwise effectually put out of business. Shipbuilders’ Security, the Iron and Steel Federation, the cement combine, and a host of others had been highly successful at the monopolist game; and the business quality highest in estimation had come to be that of making one blade of grass grow where two or three could have been grown without any technical difficulty. Was it likely that financial directors trained in this restrictive school would be good at organizing production when the sky became the limit? They were not good at it: they were very bad.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr Watkins:
NEWCASTLE, NEW SOUTH WALES

– The honorable member’s time has expired.

Sir FREDERICK STEWART:
Parramatta

– After a discussion that has lasted several days, it is rather difficult for late-coming speakers to say anything that is particularly novel or original in regard to the financial statement of the Treasurer (Mr. Chifley), although one must confess that the honorable member for Melbourne (Mr.Calwell) introduced into his enthusiastic effort a great deal more novelty than realism.

One would like to believe that the story of departmental administration related by the honorable member for Dalley (Mr. Rosevear) was novel, and not typical of governmental administration in. time of war. Whilst one has a healthy distaste for repetition, of which there is far too much in this chamber, there are occasions on which the circumstances justify its indulgence. This is one of those occasions. I believe that the perils inherent in the budget proposals of the Government are capable of doing so serious an injury to the economic structure and the domestic life of the people of Australia that the warnings already uttered by previous speakers cannot be too frequently repeated. What provokes that statement? Generally, a budget contains a statement of anticipated expenditure and anticipated income. Almost invariably, those two estimates are specifically divided and totalled. Either they agree, or they show a deficit or a surplus. But the present budget has departed from that tradition. It is true that the Treasurer estimated an expenditure during the current year of £549,000,000. But the honorable gentleman took pains to tell us that that is by no means a definite figure. He reminded us that during the last financial year the estimates - which, we presume, were as faithfully and honestly prepared as those for this year have been - fell short of the actual expenditure by approximately £98,000,000, and involved the use of bank credit to an amount of £80,000,000. Even though it be true that £549,000,000 by no means represents the potential financial obligations of the country, one has not heard a word of criticism either from this side or the other side of the chamber regarding that aspect of the budget. I venture to suggest that if £549,000,000, £649,000,000 or even £749,000,000 were needed in order to ensure the safety and security of Australia, there would be no demur, either politically or from the Australian taxpayers. But the criticism advanced during this debate has been associated entirely with the provision that the Government has made or proposes to make in order to meet its obligations. The Treasurer informed us that, again departing from tradition, he proposes to raise £219,000,000 by taxation and £30,000,000 from other sources. He then naively said that the remaining £300,000,000 would be found by loans, &c. “ Etcetera “ is to play a large part in the financial affairs of the Government during the ensuing twelve months. The Treasurer stated that during the last financial year £120,000,000 was raised by loans and that, if the amount were doubled this year, £240,000,000 would be raised. That is perfectly correct. If the £240,000,000 be doubled next year, the amount raised will be £480,000,000; and if the same process be followed in the succeeding year, the amount raised will be £960,000,000. We need only continue that process for five or six years, and the spectre of the national debt to which the honorable member for Melbourne directed our attention will have been completely eliminated. But is it practicable? Was the Treasurer serious when he mentioned the possibility of raising £240,000,000 from loans and £60,000,000 from war savings certificates? If so, I should like to know what the Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin) meant when, answering a retort from this side of the chamber during his speech, he stated definitely that in his opinion the maximum amount that could be raised in Australia, even if compulsory loans were resorted to, would be £200,000,000. I believe that the right honorable gentleman will admit that, unless compulsory loans be resorted to, the amount raised will not reach even £200,000,000. Which of those two statements is Parliament and the country to accept? Are we to believe that the Treasury anticipates raising £300,000,000 from voluntary loans and war savings certificates, or that the ceiling estimated by the Prime Minister as being possible for the raising of loans in Australia during the next twelve months must be set at £200,000,000? If the Prime Minister be correct, the Government has definitely budgeted for the use of at least £100,000,000 of bank credit this year, even on the assumption that the expenditure be of the amount estimated to-day. I have always adopted a rather liberal attitude towards the use of the credit resources of Australia. I was shockingly disappointed, and have not yet recovered, three or four years ago, when we were told by the government of the day that the monumental piece of social legislation that was then so greatly acclaimed in this chamber had to be placed in the political ice-box because the economic structure of Australia was said to be not capable of producing £2,000,000 a year in order to implement it. That was not the only occasion on which I had felt disposed to adopt an attitude of liberal finance. But surely there is some difference between controllable and uncontrollable use of credit ! The Prime Minister stated in this chamber recently that any resort to bank credit would be an inflationary measure. Again I point to a disagreement between him and his Treasurer in this regard; because the latter, in one paragraph of his printed budget speech, drew attention to the fact that the financing of the whole of the war by means of bank credit, as some people - including a number of his own supporters - desired, would be fraught with very grave danger to Australia. Apparently, the honorable gentleman considered that in the very serious resort to the use of bank credit that he contemplates he is perfectly safe, but that he must not go any farther. Yet the Prime Minister told us that any resort - and I believe that he mentioned an amount of £20,000^000- would be inflationary! I repeat that, whilst most of the business community owes its success to ability to use personal credit to a reasonable degree, the realm of commerce and industry is strewn with the debris of enterprises and men who resorted to an uncontrolled use of credit.

Let us examine the actual proposals of the Treasurer. The honorable gentleman stated that, if the returns from war loans last year were doubled, we should raise this year £240,000,000. Does that mean that during last year, when £120,000,000 was raised, only half pressure was applied to the accelerator? On the contrary, we can recall very dramatic last-minute appeals by the Prime Minister, the Treasurer, and other Ministers, when it seemed that the last war loan was likely to fall far short of requirements. We recall the ballet demonstrations and boxing exhibitions given in Martin-place, Sydney, in order to intensify the interest of the community in the war loans. We are now told that the people contributed last year only onehalf of the sum they were capable of providing, and that whilst we raised £120,000,000 last year we are likely to get £240,000,000 this year. Then the Treasurer said that the balance of £60,000,000 might be raised by the war savings certificates campaign. He remarked that if £60,000,000 were obtained, it would be a comparatively small achievement compared with that accomplished in Great Britain. The Treasurer told us that the returns from war savings certificates last year showed a falling off compared with the previous year, and that last year the face value of the war savings certificates issued was £13,500,000. That represents, of course, only a cash value of a little over £10,000,000. Does anybody suggest, that Australia, under a voluntary system, is capable of increasing last year’s returns from these certificates sixfold? Unless the Government is prepared to scrap its present proposals, and adopt some of those suggested to it, this country is likely to suffer severely from the inflation that must inevitably follow.

In refusing to increase the income tax of persons on the lower ranges of income, or to introduce a system of compulsory loans, the Government is appealing to the goodwill of a large body of income-earners who are escaping their appropriate share of the war costs. The honorable member for Ballarat (Mr. Pollard) referred to the fact that a considerable amount of income is earned by the group in receipt of less than £400 a year. He estimated the amount at £550,000,000, but I think that £700,000,000 would be nearer the mark. He said that it would be wrong to consider that sum without regard to the number of contributors. I admit that. It would be a sound argument on his part if it were suggested that the persons earning that £700,000,000 should pay tax comparable with that of persons in the higher income groups who earn that amount of income. Nobody, of course, asks that, but the Opposition contends that, whilst it is true that the attitude of the Government will probably appeal to many of those people who unthinkingly believe that they are escaping their share of national responsibility, I warn them that after all the relief they are getting is merely temporary. The deflation of the currency that must follow the tremendous use of bank credit contemplated in the budget is only an alternative method of taxing, which is more ruthless in its incidence than any considered system of income taxation that could be applied to that group. What would be the effect of a deflation of the currency? Its influence would extend, not only to those to whom the Government is appealing for their goodwill, hut it would also apply even more ruthlessly to those taxpayers who have limited and fixed incomes, such as pensioners of all classes, including the miners in receipt of pensions, who have recently come into that field.

The prudent people who have put their comparatively small savings into war loans and other investments will not participate in any of the advantages of inflation, hut will certainly share all of its disabilities. Even the people who respond to the appeal of the Government, and of the rest of us who plead with them, to invest in war loans will find their returns from that investment seriously affected. They will get £3 5s. or £3 2s. 6d. per cent., but the purchasing power of the money will have declined. I repeat the prophecy of the right honorable member for Kooyong (Mr. Menzies) that, before the end of the financial year, the Government will be compelled to retrace its steps, and discard what it now considers to be a commendable proposal. This will not be the first time that the Government has had this experience. Not many weeks have elapsed since we heard of the Government’s brave proposal to impose a ceiling limit of 4 per cent, on the profits earned by various companies. This proposal was much acclaimed throughout the community by those who were not shareholders in companies. The Treasurer himself, speaking at Lithgow recently, said to his constituents that, whilst the proposal to limit profits to 4 per cent, was attractive, it had been found to be totally unworkable. 1 prophesy that a similar experience will befall the Treasurer and the Government iti its concentration on voluntary effort in order to finance the war loans.

Whilst it is true that the Government is resorting to three methods of revenue raising - and most of us” are prone to believe that taxation, borrowing, and resort to bank credit are the only methods - T direct attention to a fourth method by which some advance could be made towards the balancing of the budget. T refer to watchfulness and economy in expenditure. I know, of course, that in war-time it is most difficult to prevent wasteful expenditure. As General Sir

Thomas Blarney recently remarked, war itself is a waste ; it is difficult, therefore, to remove from those administering easy money a spendthrift complex. I was glad to hear the remarks of some members on the Government side of the chamber about the possibility of effecting economies by relinquishing some of the lavish expenditure which is characteristic of governments, particularly in war-time. But I remind honorable members of a further direction in which substantial economies could be effected. I refer to the over-generous treatment of the States in the payments made to them from the Commonwealth Treasury. Last week this Parliament considered the annual distribution to the three States which for years have received disability grants. In days gone by, when the budgets of those States really suggested that disabilities were being suffered by them under federation, one could not raise serious objection to the grants. I agree that the financial disabilities of the claimant States should be recognized, but we now find that all State treasuries are in credit. Therefore, the time has arrived when, in the interests of the solvency of the Commonwealth, the whole position should be reviewed. I direct this argument particularly to the compensation which the State governments are to receive under the uniform taxation proposals. I have no doubt at all that the committee which made the recommendations was anxious to do its utmost to break down the opposition which was inevitable from at least some of the State treasurers. Therefore it seems to me that the grants were much more generous than the circumstances warranted.

Honorable members will recall that the basis of that compensation was. the income tax collected by the various State governments during the years 1940 and 1941. If the liabilities of the States had remained static until to-day, there could be no objection to that basis, but even State governments should participate in the austerity campaign and reduce their expenditure. I shall refer to figures that apply to New South Wales, and I have no doubt that the argument will apply perhaps in a smaller degree to the other States. In 1941, the Government of New South Wales had a liability in respect of unem- ployment of £5,809,000. Its disbursements under this heading included £2,250,000 on grants, loans and advances for the relief of unemployment; £1,333,000 on food relief for the unemployed ; £91,000 on clothing for unemployed ; £603,000 on grants to the Metropolitan Water, Sewerage and Drainage Board in order to give employment and £100,000 in providing housing for the unemployed. Would anybody suggest that the Government of New South Wales is now expending even a fraction of the odd £809,000 in relieving unemployment or in similar activities? In 1941 that Government paid £1,333,000 for child endowment, of which it has now been entirely relieved by reason of the Commonwealth child endowment scheme. Those two figures alone show a total of over £7,000,000 of obligations which the Government of New South Wales had in 1941, but practically none of which it has to-day. No wonder that that government has shown a budget surplus for the year just closed of approximately £1,000,000. One asks what that surplus would have amounted to. if all of the income tax due for last year had beencollected before the end of the year, or even if, for those payments made on the 30th June, receipts dated the 30th June had been given, instead of being dated forward into this financial year; and if all the capital expenditure from revenue on the New South Wales railways had been so indicated, instead of being offset as capital expenditure. These are the methods by which State budgets are manipulated - I use the term in its better sense. Therefore, on the grounds I have stated. I believe that the compensation which the Commonwealth Government is bound to pay to the States under the uniform taxation legislation is far too generous.

The Treasurer told us in his budget speech of the achievement of the Government in improving social services. He referred to the increases of invalid and old-age pensions, and he reminded us that the Government had instituted a Commonwealthwide system of widows’ pensions. I maintain, however, that it is of little use to increase pensions by 6d. a week if, at the same time, the Government’s budgetary proposals have the effect of greatly reducing the purchasing power of money. Moreover, while I commend and support the Government’s social service improvements, I feel that it would have performed a still greater service to the country if it could have overcome its aversion to placing social services on a contributory basis. Widows’ pensions are a great boon to thousands of widows in Australia, but the scheme is of no use to at least one widow in my electorate. In a letter to me she explains that the Valuer-General has placed a value of £425 on a house which she owns, and assesses the rental value at £45 a year, or 16s. a week. The property was acquired out of the savings of this woman and her late husband, but because she owns it she is denied a pension of 25s. a week, although its rental value is no more than 16s. a week, out of which she must pay rates and taxes, and provide for depreciation, repairs, renovations, loss of rent, &c. In ray opinion, the time is overdue when the Government should revive the national health and pensions insurance scheme, to which should be added an unemployment insurance scheme. Within’ the last week, I have received documents from Great Britain which show that the contributory insurance scheme in that country is providing a surplus of income over expenditure of £74,000,000 a year. What a boon it would be to our Treasury if we had in Australia a similar scheme, which might be expected to yield a surplus of between £10,000,000 and £15,000,000 a year.

I take this opportunity to express my opinion of the Government’s attempt to impose compulsory unionism on the country. During the debate on this subject last week, the suggestion was freely made by Government supporters that those who were opposed to this form of industrial fascism were making a frontal attack upon the principle of unionism. Of course, they were doing nothing of the kind. To object to the Government’s proposal to compel men to join labour unions is not the same thing as to object to unionism as such, or even to preference to unionists. If the purpose of the Government were merely to ensure that all workers were paid award rates, I should have no objection to its proposal, but that is not the real issue. Reference was made in the course of the debate to the action of the Government in imposing a condition in contracts for the manufacture of clothing that all employees engaged on the work should be members of the union. Not even the Minister for Supply and Development (Mr. Beasley) would argue that the action of the Government in calling upon contractors to sign an agreement with the secretary of the union was to ensure that all the employees should, receive award rates of wages. As a matter of fact, it, is compulsory under the terms of tho award for all employers to pay award rates. Judge Drake-Brockman, in award No. 484 of 1940, provided as follows: -

This award shall he binding upon the employers named in the schedule of the respondents attached hereto in respect of each and very person employed by them in the industry whether members of the Amalgamated Clothing and Allied Trades Union of Australia or not, and upon the said union and members thereof.

If compulsory unionism is the policy of the Government, it would have been more honest and dignified for the Minister for Supply and Development to impose that condition in the contract itself, instead of requiring contractors to sign an agreement with nonGovernment officials. The policy of the Government is clear enough from the action of the Director of Allied Works in insisting that all men serving in the Civil Constructional Corps shall present their union tickets. Apparently, there is a difference of opinion between the Prime Minister and the Attorney-General (Dr. Evatt) on this subject. Recently the Attorney-General gave the honorable member for Lilley (Mr. Jolly) a definite undertaking that men conscripted for work under the Allied Works Council would not be compelled to join a union, but the next day the Prime Minister controverted that statement, and now we do not know what the position is. It would appear, however, that the men are to have no choice. They have been taken from their businesses and jobs, and are being sent hundreds of miles a way from their homes, often to perform work to which they are unaccustomed, and now they are to be compelled to join labour unions.

Mr FROST:
Minister for Repatriation · FRANKLIN, TASMANIA · ALP

– Does not the honorable member realize that we are at war?

Sir FREDERICK STEWART:

– Yes, and we are fighting for freedom, something of which the Government’s action is an abrogation. Of course, we know that the reason for the Government’s action is to ensure the continuity of contributions to its funds for party purposes. It is amazing that a government which is prepared to depend on Voluntary contributions for financing the war effort should not be prepared to admit the same principle in the case of contributions to party funds.

I was glad to note in the Treasurer’s speech a reference to the proposal of the Government to introduce measures for constitutional reform. I welcome the suggestion. In this respect I am out of step with some of my colleagues, who have criticized the proposal on the ground that it’ is inopportune. I do not share that view. For many years I have believed that there is no need for seven separate governments in. Australia. That was my opinion as a private citizen. It was confirmed when 1 became a member of this Parliament, and was further strengthened as the result of my experience as a Minister of the Crown. However, I hope that the Government will lift the issue above party politics. I know that the fears expressed by some honorable mem-‘ bers on this side of the House rested on the feeling that the Government’s proposals savoured of party politics. For my part, I believe that the issue is too great to be the plaything of party politics, ft, is nearly half a century since thefederal convention framed the Constitution. Important scientific and economic developments have occurred since then, and it is time that the whole basis of the relationship between the Commonwealth and the States was reviewed. In order that thi* matter may lie placed above party, the Prime Minister should call together a convention similar to that which was responsible for the framing of the Constitution. If that be impracticable, at least let the proposals which are to be submitted to the people be formulated by an all-party committee. I shall support any government which attempts to obtain wider powers for the Commonwealth. The more power which the Commonwealth is able to assume, the better pleased I shall be.

Mr RIORDAN:
Kennedy

Menzies) spoke truly when he declared that wages chase prices, but never overtake them. Honorable members opposite wish to prevent any further increase of wages, whilst taking, by way of compulsory loans, a considerable proportion of the workers’ earnings, and, at the same time, to allow prices to continue to rise. The right honorable member for Kooyong also declared that the Government wa taking advantage of the present prices to foist compulsory unionism upon the people. Honorable members opposite arc looking for a chance to utilize the present emergency for the purpose of smashing the standards of living which the workers of this country have taken years to build up, and which are second to none in any other country. The proposals in respect of compulsory loans, and taxation of the lower ranges of income are evidence of what honorable members opposite would do if, by some means, they managed to regain the government bench. The Government declares that the wealthy sections of the community should make greater contributions to the war effort. Our object is to ensure that the people who. took every opportunity in the past to exploit the general public for the purpose of amassing wealth, shall not now be allowed merely to sit back and enjoy their ill-gotten gains. The guiding principle in national finance, and taxation is ability to pay. Apparently, honorable members opposite have discarded that principle. The interests which they represent in this Parliament fully support their argument that the cost of the war must be placed on shoulders other than their own. They do not care who pays for the war. They know that it must be paid for; but they prefer to see the washerwoman, the office boy, and the worker on the small wages make the greatest contribution. Any one who advocates a scheme of compulsory loans will, of course, receive the plaudits of the capitalist press. The wealthy section is the only section which will benefit from compulsory loans.

Honorable members opposite contend that compulsory loans will bridge the gap in the budget. It was estimated that the scheme propounded by the Fadden Government would yield £25,000,000, but honorable members opposite give no estimate of the revenue likely to he derived from the scheme which they now advocate should the Government he silly enough to adopt the proposition. .Such a scheme would bring economic misery and distress to the workers, and create conditions akin to those existing in the last depression. No room exists in our democratic life, either in peace or war, for such a scheme. The honorable member for Boothby (Dr. Price) emphasized what Great Britain was doing in the prosecution of the war. However, neither he, nor any other honorable member opposite, pointed out that on the basis of an estimated expenditure of £5,286,000,000 Great Britain’s budget leaves a gap of £2,100,000,000- still to be bridged. These details were set out in a speech delivered by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Sir Kingsley Wood, in the House of Commons, on the 14th April last. How is Great Britain going to bridge that gap? According to Sir Kingsley Wood, it will be bridged in the same way as the Treasurer proposes to bridge the gap remaining in this budget. Consequently, honorable members opposite are utterly stupid when they speak of what Great Britain is doing, and, at the same time, criticize the Treasurer for acting likewise. If the -methods adopted in Great Britain be correct they must also be correct when adopted in Australia. Obviously, honorable members opposite criticize the budget simply for the sake of criticizing it. Should the proposition they advance be adopted, it would mean that one-quarter of the national income would be absorbed in compulsory loans. [Extension of time granted.”] If the Opposition’s plan for bridging the gap between revenue and expenditure were adopted, the Government would have to take as a compulsory loan 5s. in every £1 of income earned in Australia; but already certain people are paying income tax of 18s. in the £1, and the utmost that could be taken from them would be their remaining 2s. in the £1, and the other 3s. in the £1 would have to be contributed by the remainder of the earners of income. The proposal is too silly for words. It would mean that finally the contribution would be nearer 10s. in the £1 of the gross earnings, leaving to the income-earner half his earnings out of which to pay his income tax and maintain himself and his family.

The budget has been described by honorable members opposite as being so inflationary in its character that its adoption must lead to financial chaos. If this budget be condemned as inflationary, the Leader of the Opposition himself stands condemned of having introduced inflationary budgets as Treasurer in the Menzies Cabinet and as Prime Minister and Treasurer last year. Honorable members opposite have attempted to draw a parallel between this budget and the calamitous inflation which occurred in Germany after the last war, but there is no parallel to be drawn between the two periods or the two countries. Germany had been defeated in the war, but the Government, deciding to play a last trump, chose to smash the German currency in order to prevent the victorious nations from exploiting the German people. The history of the world since then has been marked by economic progress, and to-day, owing to the exigencies of the time, central bank credit is being used by every warring nation. Whether we like it or not, we must follow the lead given to us and use the national credit for the national benefit, but, certainly, not for the purpose of enabling private gain, which would be the case under a government formed from the ranks of the parties now in opposition. The right honorable member for Kooyong spoke on this budget in terms which vividly reminded me of the speeches made in this chamber on the eve of the 1931 general elections, when the. fiduciary notes proposal, made on behalf of the Scullin Government by the then Treasurer! Mr. Theodore, was rejected because it was regarded as inflationary. Yet, immediately after the accession of the Lyons Government, our gold reserve was shipped overseas, and our currency was left without backing and made completely fiduciary. The people to-day are not so gullible as they were in 1931, but, apparently, honorable members opposite have not awakened to that fact. They remind me of a horse-trainer who unwisely decides that a horse, which has been resting in the paddock for ten years, is frisky enough to win another race.

Amongst the splendid schemes instituted by the Minister for War Organization of Industry (Mr. Dedman) is the rationalization of banking, under -which centres previously served by four or five branches of banks are now served by only one. Thereby the Government has established the machinery which will enable it at the first clear opportunity to apply the Labour party’s policy of nationalization of banking. That day ought, to be hastened by the early lifting of the restrictions on the operations of the Commonwealth Bank which have prevented it from functioning in the manner originally intended, namely, as a people’s bank, instead of, as at present, a bankers’ bank. The nationalization of the Australian banking system is essential to the realization of a full war effort.

Official figures indicate that the average income earned by payers of income tax whose wages are less than £400 per annum is £210. The direct taxation paid by these wage-earners and the increase of the cost of living by 20 per cent, are an indication of the tremendous contributions that they make by way of indirect taxation to the Commonwealth Treasury. Excise from beer and tobacco nowadays exceeds the revenue derived from the income tax in 1938-39. That is conclusive proof that wage-earners in the lower ranges of incomes - and they comprise more than half of the taxpayers - are contributing more than a fair share towards meeting the cost of the war. The Opposition is demanding that further inroads be made on their resources for the sole purpose of smashing living standards.

It matters little to me whether I have beer or not, but the leaders of the armed services have frequently said that the men in the forces must have their beer and cigarettes if they are to be ‘ contented. The British Government has not found it necessary to limit the brewing of beer, and it is interesting to note that Lord Arnold, speaking in the House of Lords on the 12th May last, said that beer was bringing to the Treasury tremendous revenues, which were sorely needed. The Cairns brewery, which has been called upon to supply, not only the armed services, but also the civil population in a vast area, will cease operations next Thursday because of malt shortage. I should like to know what effect that will have on the troops in the northern regions. The closing down of the brewery will be owing not to the lack of water, hops or man-power, but to the unavailability of malt.

Mr Fadden:

– Malt is available.

Mr RIORDAN:

– No, not in Cairns. I specifically inquired about that in Melbourne when I came back from North Queensland. No malt means no beer. I am alarmed at the prospect that men who have been sent to the north, not only to fight, hut also to do defence work on behalf of the Allied Works Council, will not be able to get their daily glass of beer. [Further extension of time granted.] I discovered in Melbourne that, owing to man-power not being available, malt was definitely in short supply, and that consequently beer will be severely rationed towards the end of the year. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Fadden), by reason of the fact that he once lived in the tropics, knows what the conditions are there, and what complaints, outbursts and- outcries will come from the localities where all this defence work is being done, if no beer is available for the men. The matter is now before the Minister for Customs (Senator Keane) and is serious, because the heads of all the services agree that the troops must have beer and cigarettes to keep them contented. I hope that the Government will take whatever action is necessary to see that, so far as is possible, those living and working in the tropics shall have their supplies of beer assured to them.

Mr RANKIN:
Bendigo

– The loud-voiced oration of the honorable member for Kennedy (Mr. Riordan) leaves me somewhat cold, because I remember him not so very long ago waving his arms and demanding to know : “ Where is this enemy which you talk about? Where is this war which we are supposed to be going to fight? Why should we spend this money on defence ? “

Mr Riordan:

– That is not true.

– I agree with the honorable gentleman. The men who return from this war, and also the people in munitions factories, will also want work when the war is over, though, in ni,y opinion, the munitions workers are entitled to only half the consideration that men who return from active service should receive. I do nor believe that the people of Australia, in general, and the returned men, in particular, will accept conditions similar to those offered after the last war. Our people will not be prepared to go back on the dole, and I would not expect them to do so. Men who return from the war and have a business, or a farm, or a job, to go to should be allowed to go to it promptly. Men who have no job to go to should be retained in the Army, not. on

– I can produce a letter to prove my statement. I believe that our men who return to civil life after this war will demand social security. If they are not assured of it by the government of the day, they, themselves, will take charge of the affairs of the country, and they will have the assistance of the men of the original Australian Imperial Force in brushing aside honorable gentlemen opposite as a person might brush midges from his face. Ever since the last war I have fought to get the very best of conditions for returned soldiers, and I shall continue to do so, whether I remain a member of this Parliament or not.

I am dissatisfied with the administration of the Repatriation Department. It is time that we implemented the decision that the Parliament made two and a half years ago to remove from the returned soldier the onus of proof that, a disability was the result of war service, and to place the onus on the Repatriation Department. The amendment of the Australian Soldiers Repatriation Act that was subsequently agreed to has not been effective. In 99 cases out of 100, the men who apply for war pensions have little legal knowledge and many of them do not think that they get a fair deal from the department. I regret that I feel obliged to say that I consider the doctors and officers generally of the Repatriation Department seem to regard it as their job to prevent as many returned men as possible from getting a pension.

Mr Barnard:

– That is not a fair statement.

Mr RANKIN:

– Nevertheless, I believe it to be a true statement.

Mr Barnard:

– I consider it to bc grossly unfair to the officers of the department, who, in my experience, have a sincere desire to help returned soldiers.

Mr RANKIN:

– The honorable gentleman may state his case if he so desires, but he would need to be a greater orator than Alfred Deakin to convince a greatnumber of returned soldiers that they have had a fair deal from the department. Even men who have returned from this war have been treated shabbily by the department. I have in mind a young married man who had his shoulder blade broken by a bomb explosion. After his return home he was an inmate of the Caulfield Military Hospital for two or three weeks, but he received no treatment. I took up his case and subsequently he wa3 given some treatment, but was finally discharged on an unsatisfactory basis. He is a farmer’s son, but he is physically incapable of working on a farm. He has been granted the magnificent pension of 10s. 4d. a week, and his wife has been allowed 4s. a week. I do not blame the Government, because it was a matter of administration. That is only one of a dozen almost similar cases that I could cite. I believe that the act does not operate justly. Over a period of years it has been amended with a view to making its operation .more equitable. Not long ago, members of this Parliament believed that it had been so amended that the unfortunate soldiers would receive a better deal than they had previously been given; but a legal trick was worked. That has to be altered. The men who suffer disability in this war will demand that it be altered.

The Minister for War Organization of Industry (Mr. Dedman) stated recently that nothing had been done in regard to war organization until he took charge of the department. In Hansard of the 3rd and 4th July. 1941, the honorable gentleman is reported to have said -

I should not have risen at this late hour but for a matter which I consider to be of supreme importance. Certain constituents of mine, members of the Militia Force, have re,wired notice that they will be required for continuous military duty for the duration of the war. I have not made any bones about where I stand in regard to conscription. I am opposed to conscription for home service as well as for service overseas. I am opposed to it on religious grounds, because I do not believe that any man or any government ought to force any individual to take up the art of killing his fellow mcn.

Why has the honorable gentleman changed so remarkably? To-day, he is a member of a government that is in favour of conscription for home service and for the defence of New Guinea. Surely the extra. £1.000 a year has not so gilded the pill that he is prepared -to swallow it and to renounce his religious convictions ! He must realize that a great deal of war organization had been effected before he assumed control. He is merely building on the foundation provided by a previous government. A man with such strong and deep-seated religious convictions surely could not change his opinions overnight ! He may be likened to the man who betrayed his master for 30 pieces of silver. At page 1149, vol. 157, of Ilansard, the honorable member for East Sydney (Mr. Ward), now Minister for Labour and National Service, is reported in the following terms : -

It is amusing to hear people say that we shall not give up New Guinea - to those people I would say that if it should become necessary to defend our mandated territory they should defend it themselves. As far as I am concerned, all I can judge about the necessity for retaining New Guinea is that a handful of exploiters have got hold of the country, some interested in aerial transport, some in gold-mining, and some in the search for oil. These people want to retain New Guinea in order to preserve their own commercial interests.

To-day, strong though his ideas in regard to defence may be, and remarkable as his outlook is in respect of the Army, I believe that he will admit that it is essential that we shall continue to hold New Guinea. If we fail to do that, we shall not be able to hold the north of Australia. I doubt whether even he would be prepared, as was the Army at one stage, to say to the people of Queensland, “If we are attacked, we shall walk out of Queensland and defend New South Wales “.

Mr Conelan:

– This Labour Government altered that state of affairs. The Government supported by the honorable member left the back door of Australia wide-open.

Mr Fadden:

– It was the Japanese who altered it.

Mr RANKIN:

– At page 1199 of the same volume, the honorable member for Batman (Mr. Brennan) is reported to have said -

From my point of view it is ridiculous to expend money on defence in amounts which increase by millions of pounds with every flow of hysteria from the swashbucklers. From my point of view it is ridiculous, but from the point of view of the diseased sensationalists it is the acme of perfection.

The Minister for Health and Social Services (Mr. Holloway), who attended a famous conference at Perth, is reported to have made the following statement: -

I do not charge the Government with not expending enough money on defence - I make it clear at the outset that I think it is expending too much. When a Government begins to expend on defence money which should be used for the internal development of the country, then, in my opinion, it is doing wrong. The Government is expending much too rapidly on defence - it is making plans for more than the adequate defence of Australia. I make no excuse for saying that. When the Government suggests that more millions should be expended on ‘ defence, should be provided out of the funds which ordinarily the States would devote to their economic developments, then it is time to call a halt, and that is where we are now and where we should stop.

The international crisis has passed. The threatened danger is no longer as great as it was, for it must be apparent to every body that the Munich pact has lessened the probability of a European war in the near future. . . The Government, as a matter of fact, has brought the country to the verge of war hysteria in order merely to provide the requisite atmosphere to enable certain changes to be made in the Ministry.

Mr Barnard:

– Is the honorable gentleman reading from an electioneering pamphlet?

Mr RANKIN:

– These are facts which the party to which the honorable member belongs will have to answer at tho next election. At page 1095 the right honorable gentleman is reported to have said -

I say that any increase of defence expenditure after the Munich pact so far as Australia is concerned appears to me to be an utterly unjustifiable and hysterical piece of panic propaganda - that is what I say in respect of the alarmist statements that have been made.

Mr James:

– That was prior to the last election.

Mr RANKIN:

– The hope of the honorable member is that people have very short memories.

Mr Holloway:

– The honorable gentleman will admit that the British people also were deceived.

Mr RANKIN:

– Certain British people were deceived ; where are they today? They are not leading their country, as are those honorable members whose utterances I have quoted, and who are a potential danger to it. Those who in Britain held such ideas have since been relegated to the political obscurity from, which they should never have been allowed to emerge.

Although the budget may appear to be harsh in some respects, it is only what can be expected in existing circumstances. I am confident that it will be accepted by the people of Australia generally. As so many financial experts have dealt with its financial aspects, I shall take this opportunity to refer to some matters of paramount importance to Western Australia. The less populous States, particularly Western Australia, were justified in being dissatisfied with their shabby treatment by previous governments in connexion with the establishment of war industries. Therefore I am pleased that much of that leeway has been made up since the present administration took charge. My experience is that that is also the view of the majority of the people of Western Australia. However, much still remains to be done to remedy the disabilities from which Western Australia is suffering. Last year, the then Acting Prime Minister (Mr. Fadden) appointed the Western Australian War Industries Committee to survey the economic position of that State “ as affected by and in relation to Australian war problems and the war effort “. The present Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin) was a member of that body, which made many important recommendations. I direct attention to paragraphs 147-9 of its report -

Western Australia possesses several proved deposits of high grade ore, the two most important being Yampi and Koolyanobbing. Deposits of lime and lime sands are available in the south-west. Absence of a coking coal is the main reason for failure to treat the iron ore commercially in Western Australia. Since, however, both the Yampi and the Koolyanobbing iron ore are particularly rich, and extensive hardwood forests suitable for the large scale production of charcoal and by-product wood distillation exist in close proximity to ports in the south-west, it has been advanced strongly by several expert engineering witnesses that there are good prospects for iron ore smelting in Western Australia as a thoroughly sound economic undertaking. Expert engineering witnesses maintained that the use in the blast furnace process of charcoal from Western Australian hardwoods would yield very pure iron suitable for the produc tion of tin pl ate and special alloy steels. Alternatively, either charcoal from hardwood, or Collie coal (after grinding and the removal of impurities by flotation), would be suitable for ore smelting by the new Duffield process which involves the smelting, in a specially constructed cupola, or briquettes of iron ore mixed with finely ground charcoal or coal bonded with hydrated lime. The production of charcoal iron in blast furnaces is uneconomic only when the charcoal is weak, costly to produce, and available in such small quantities as to make large scale production difficult. In general, the production in Sweden, Russia and other countries of fine charcoal iron, which commands a considerable premium in the world’s markets, is not in substantial quantity because of the relative sparseness of softwood forests and of the incapacity of softwood charcoal to bear a sufficient burden to permit very large blast furnaces. No country has been able to try smelting iron with hardwood charcoal for lack of the appropriate timber supplies. There is no lack of supply in Western Australia, and crushing tests show that the hardwood charcoal produced in the State is strong enough to be satisfactory in the largest blast furnace.

Charcoal iron is at a premium because it is free from sulphur and phosphorus, and is consequently an excellent material for further manufacture. The economics of its production hinge on the cost of the fuel. Production of charcoal for blast furnaces must be on a large scale. It is futile to attempt to make it with small burnings in forest kilns. Its production must be undertaken as an engineering process. Mr. F. Mills, Chief Mechanical Engineer of the Western Australian Railways, expressed his conviction that if the reduction of hardwoods to charcoal in Western Australia were done, as a large scale engineering undertaking, the charcoal could be made available for “ what seems to be an absurdly low price “.

Ores at Yampi are very rich and easily mined, but the need for sea transport makes some ship-building programme an essential accompaniment of their exploitation during the war. Good ore is also available in large quantities at Koolyanobbing near Southern Cross, and requires only rail transport. It was urged by witnesses that the availability of the Koolyanobbing deposits justifies the immediate first steps in the development of the iron industry in Western Australia.

Sir George Bell:

– Was that report laid upon the table of the House ?

Mr JOHNSON:

– Yes.

Sir George Bell:

– I should like to know why the report of the committee that inquired into Tasmanian war industries has not been laid upon the table.

Mr JOHNSON:

– Giving evidence before the Western Australian War Industries Committee, the Honorable R. A. G. Hawke, who is Minister for Industrial Development in the Government of “Western Australia, Mr. R. “W. Sawyer, the representative of the Chamber of Manufactures, and Mr. Ellis, the Commissioner of Railways, emphasized two important matters: First, that competition in the local market by eastern States manufacturers was largely responsible for the failures of “Western Australian secondary industries generally to progress; and, secondly, the difficulty of obtaining supplies of raw materials required by local industries. According to my information, the position has not improved. Whilst Western Australian factories are not working at full capacity, completed articles are arriving from the eastern States. This position should be remedied immediately. If transport can be provided for the finished article, it should be available for the raw material. Paragraph 159 of the report contains the following sentence : -

We are. however, satisfied that there is every warrant for the sum nf £30,000 being made available by the Commonwealth for the thorough testing of recommended processes of local raw materials.

I urge the Government to give effect to that recommendation. I also direct attention to the necessity for developing the Irwin coal seam. The State government, has attempted to exploit it, without assistance from the Commonwealth Government. The coal deposits are situated between Mingene and Mullewa, and are adjacent to the port of Geraldton. At the present time, these centres draw their coal from Collie, which is approximately 500 miles distant. Some quarters suggest that Irwin coal is inferior to the Collie coal, because of its high ash content and low fixed carbon; but such meagre attention has been devoted to the development of this highly promising field, that many people are suspicious that influences are at work to prevent a thorough investigation of its potentialities. In view of the shortage of coal supplies in Western Australia, the Commonwealth Government should co-operate with the State Government for the purpose of testing the Irwin coal seam.

Whilst I fully appreciate the difficulties confronting the Government in overcoming the problem of transport, I doubt whether the best use is being made of existing facilities. For example, the port of Esperance, which is the natural outlet for the Kalgoorlie and Coolgardie gold-fields, now lies idle and deserted. All goods consigned to the gold-fields are either sent by rail from Fremantle, a distance of 400 miles, or are hauled from the eastern States by the East- West railway. At present the port of Fremantle is congested, and unloading operations are unavoidably delayed. Unloading costs are doubled because of the lack of facilities to cope with the quantity of shipping in the harbour. Esperance is provided with suitable facilities, including rail transport, and goods consigned to the gold-fields should be despatched through this centre in order to relieve the congestion at Fremantle, and on the EastWest railway. I realize that the extensive use of Esperance would involve the re-direction of convoys arriving in Australia, but the geographical position of the port would minimize the problem.

The strain that is now imposed upon the East-West railway could be relieved substantially by the extension of the 4-ft. 8£-in. gauge from Port Pirie to Broken Hill. This work has been advocated for years. I have personally made repeated representations to various governments to undertake it. If the line were built, New South Wales rollingstock could travel to Kalgoorlie and the cost of the work, compared with the expenditure on the war, would not be very great

I urge the Government to explore every possibility to relieve the appalling shortage of superphosphate supplies. To-day, in reply to a question that I addressed to the Minister for Supply and Development (Mr. Beasley) I received the following encouraging answer: -

It is the Government’s desire to see that imported sulphur used in the manufacture of sulphuric acid is displaced as quickly as possible by using available resources of sulphide minerals in Western Australia and the Western Australian Mines Department, in association with the Controller of Minerals Production, is doing all it can to accelerate this. substitution. In particular, two possible sources of supply are being investigated, namely, the Iron King Mine at Norseman, and the Great Victorian Mine at Burbidge.

The manager of the Great Victorian mine deserves to be complimented for his efforts to develop this supply. Investigations that have already been completed by the chief metallurgist of the mining laboratory at Kalgoorlie disclosed that the Burbidge proposition fulfils all the requirements for the manufacturers of fertilizers, “whilst the development of this ore body would provide supplies of sulphur for the State, and might develop one of the biggest low-grade gold shows in “Western Australia. “For many years, this State has depended entirely upon imported sulphur for the manufacture pf sulphuric acid. However, the State contains several massive deposits of sulphide ore which may prove to be suitable for roasting for the production of sulphuric acid. It is gratifying to leant from the Minister that efforts are already being made to develop the deposits at Burbidge, and the Iron King mine at Norseman.

I note with satisfaction that the gold- mining industry has been given some consideration in the budget. Following the introduction of the uniform income tax legislation, mining profits and dividends from income will be exempt. This concession will be appreciated by the industry. The abolition of the State tax will relieve the industry of the obligation to pay £400,000 annually. The goldmining industry has earned this consideration because for years it has borne a heavy burden of taxation and has made substantial contributions to the war effort. To-day, every gold-mine operating in Western Australia is working on a nonprofit basis, because of lack of manpower. Many mines have already closed down. In addition, all other businesses in the mining districts have been affected. The Government agreed to appoint a committee representative of the Chamber of Mines, the State government and the unions concerned to deal with this problem in conjunction with the man-power authorities. Its main object was to regulate the withdrawal of men from the gold-mining industry in an endeavour to conserve the interest of each mine. On a recent visit to Kalgoorlie I called upon the secretaries of the Chamber of Mines and the Australian Workers Union who assured me that both the Army and the man-power authorities were co-operating with them in regulating the call-up of men from the industry. However, I am not completely satisfied with the way in which the man-power problem is being handled. The mining, pastoral and agricultural districts in Western Australia have been drained practically to the last man. I have yet to be convinced that this policy is being applied so severely in the big cities. I admit that a visitor to a city can very easily misjudge the position in this respect. As our war factories are working on a basis of three shifts a day, possibly many of the young men one sees in the cities are engaged in these factories. I suggest that men employed in war industries should be supplied with a special badge to indicate that they are £0 employed. [Quorum formed.] The man-power problem is most important. I urge the Government to appoint a parliamentary committee immediately to examine the national register with a view to regulating the military call-ups with more equity to the various primary industries. A very unfavorable reaction would be caused among the people should the idea get abroad that men of military age are being employed in non-essential industries, whilst vital industries are short of man-power.

Whilst beer production has been reduced by 33 per cent, no provision has been made to compensate tenant publicans for the loss thereby caused to them. Their earning capacity has been reduced by one-third practically overnight. Most of the hotels in Western Australia, as is the case, I understand, in most of the States, are owned by the breweries, which leases them to tenant publicans. The latter pay a weekly rent, but on taking over hotels they are obliged to pay substantial deposits. As the profits of these publicans have been reduced by 33 per cent., it is only reasonable to ask that they be protected in respect of their expenditure such as rent. It is all very well to say that they can obtain redress under the existing regulations. The fact remains that any individual who bumps up against the brewery monopoly will not remain in the trade for very long. I urge the Treasurer to give consideration to this aspect of beer rationing.

All honorable members will be pleased to know that arrangements are being made for the establishment of a mortgage bank. I ask the Government to ensure that this bank shall provide long-term loans at low rates of interest to primary producers, and give sympathetic treatment to the just claims of clients. I do not suggest that the bank be run on the lines of a benevolent institution. However, the primary producer often finds himself in financial straits owing to causes over which he has no control. For instance, the pastoral industry in Western Australia has had a six years drought, which reduced the number of sheep in the State by over 50 per cent., and left nothing but “ scorched earth “ in many areas. That drought ruined many pastoralists, who were not in a strong position financially, and were unable to obtain help from any institution to tide them over the crisis. If a disaster of similar magnitude, such as a flood or fire, occurred overnight, the industry would receive sympathetic consideration from this Parliament. When primary producers suffer severely as the result of conditions over which they have no control, the mortgage bank should extend sympathetic consideration to all reasonable applications.

I have no doubt that the Minister for Commerce (Mr. Scully) will give favorable consideration to my request that a wool appraisement centre be established at Geraldton. Geraldton is the port for a district which produces 90,000 bales of wool annually. T ask the Minister to give my request immediate consideration, because shearing has already started in the district.

I have already made representations to the Minister for the Army (Mr. Forde) to guarantee compensation to members of the Volunteer Defence Corps in country districts in Western Australia in respect of accidents occurring on their way to and from their training areas, and while they are engaged in training operations. These bodies function in many farming communities. They are thoroughly organized. In order to keep expenses to a minimum, and to conserve petrol and reduce wear and tear on vehicles, the men have been drafted into parties of from 20 to 25. Each farmer takes his turn to pick up the whole company on his truck and drive the men to the training area. These farmers have told me that unless the Government guaran- tees compensation in case of accident while they are engaged in training, or on their way to or from the training area, they will disband. A public meeting of members of the Volunteer Defence Corps held in my electorate a few weeks ago unanimously resolved to request the Government for the protection I have mentioned. These men travel considerable distances to and from the training areas, and most of the journeys are made in vehicles nearly twenty years old. Each man can ill-afford the time he now devotes to military training.

I make no apology for having spoken at this late hour, because the Opposition delayed the proceedings by twice moving the adjournment of the House for the purpose of futile propaganda discussions. Honorable members in these grave times should do nothing which will not assist the Government to carry out its task. I hope that before a year has elapsed the circumstances will be much more favorable to the people than they now are.

Sir GEORGE BELL:
Darwin

, - The honorable member for Parramatta (Sir Frederick Stewart), in his opening remarks, said that so many speeches had been delivered on the budget that it was difficult for honorable members at this late stage to say anything really new. I do not condemn honorable members who have talked about things that really have nothing to do with the budget, because it has been very well discussed, but points made by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Fadden) and other honorable members on this side of the committee might be emphasized, and I shall refer to a few of them. I also hope to refer to a few things that have not been mentioned. In the first place, I am bound to say that a grave defect in the budget is that it does not balance income and expenditure. Any company or individual that budgeted on those lines would face imminent bankruptcy, but, of course, public finance is conducted by the Treasurers of this country on lines different altogether from those on which private individuals operate. The budget anticipates an expenditure of £449,000,000. The Treasurer (Mr. Chifley), however, told us that it was likely that that amount would be exceeded, and some honorable members have expressed the belief that it will reach the huge amount of £600,000,000. It is estimated that revenue from taxation and all other sources will amount to £140,000,000. That will leave a gap, as it has been described by a number of honorable members, of £300,000,000. The Treasurer has estimated that he can raise £240,000,000 by loan. His reason for that estimate, which I regard as most extraordinary, is that because about £120,000,000 was raised from loans last year, the Government is justified in estimating that it can double that amount this year. In addition to straight-out loans, the Treasurer expects to raise about £60,000,000 from the sale of savings certificates and savings bonds. I do not think that there is any possibility of the Government borrowing so much as that, either by loan or from the sale of savings certificates. Sales of war savings certificates last year amounted to less than £9,000,000, and since the beginning of the war, sales of savings certificates and savings bonds would not amount to anything like £60,000,000. How, therefore, can the Treasurer expect the people of this country to provide that amount? I am certainly of the opinion, too, that straight-out voluntary loans cannot reach £200,000,000. The fact must be remembered by those who have these expectations that the money so far subscribed to loans has been largely from capital. It cannot be expected that capital will be capable of further heavy contributions. We must rely largely this year and in the years to come on the income of the people for subscriptions to loans.. Therefore, it is perfectly obvious that, if the Government excludes £700,000,000 of the income of the people from participation in either taxation or loans, it is hardly possible to raise the amount estimated.

I shall give further reasons why I think this amount of money cannot be borrowed. As I go about my own State I hear people talking. I do not know what their political views are. I do not ask them. I am not interested - between elections, at any rate - but I hear many people say, “ I am not going to subscribe to these loans to find money, not for war, but for Ministers, departmental officials, commissions and committees, and other people to wander around the country in style as if they were wealthy people “ - as many of them are. The Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin) has appealed over and over again to the people to subscribe to loans. He is now appealing to them, in this austerity campaign, as it has been termed, to reduce expenditure. I say deliberately that mere talk on that subject is not of. much use. What is required from this Government and Parliament is an example in that direction, and we are not giving it. The amount of money that the Government is expending to-day was never exceeded in the history of Australia. It is appealing to the States to reduce their expenditure, but we find that the ordinary expenditure of the Commonwealth will this year be £26,000,000 more than it was in the last year before the war. If it be right to tell the States, and the people that they must reduce their expenditure, surely we can expect them to say, “ What about the money that the Commonwealth is spending, not on the war, but on many things to make its friends more comfortable? “ I have heard that said among the people. Consider this Parliament. What do we do? We sit here for a few hours on three days a week. This is the first week of this sessional period in which we have started with the intention of meeting on four days.

Transport is one of the great problems of this country. What is the cost of conveying honorable members and secretaries and all other people who travel with them every week to and from Melbourne and Sydney? One has only to go to Canberra railway station to make a good guess at the tremendous cost involved in such travel. We from the distant States always regard it as a little unfair that honorable members from the nearer States can go home for the week-end. We, too, like to go home. I have not been home for a month and I want to go. I have things to do there. Some honorable members are not drones when Parliament is not meeting. They always want to be doing something useful and we need to go back home to attend to our private and public affairs. We have no opportunity to do so, having to remain in

Canberra or to travel to Sydney or Melbourne for the mere sake of filling in time. It was wrong before the war and it Ls unpardonable to-day that we should sit for only a few hours on a few days each week, and put the country to such great costs for transporting us. We should do our job here without a break if we considered the transport difficulties, and we should not put such big burdens on the railways, not to mention the num-ber of motor cars used.

With regard to the raising of the money necessary to meet the deficiency between revenue and expenditure, I support those who say that the only possibility of raising it is by compulsory loans, or, as they have been called, post-war credits. Some people have gone so far as to say that post-war credits will never bc repaid. It is extraordinary for an honorable member of this committee to stand up and say that the money cannot be repaid, when at the same time the Government is appealing to the people to lend voluntarily. Honorable members should realize that to-day it costs £5 to buy what £4 would have bought in prewar days. That is a. direct effect of the inflation that is operating to-day. If we have to get bank credit to the amount of another £100,000,000, as we shall have to do, even if the Treasurer’s estimates are approximate, what will be the effect next year or the year after? Is it not far better for the individual wage-earner, for the men with incomes from any direction, to subscribe £1 in £5 towards post-war credits than to pay it away for goods because of enhanced prices brought about by the use of bank credit. That is actually the position. It is wrong to say that post-war credits could not be paid back, because it will be very much easier to square the ledger after the war by the repayment of post-war credits than it will be if bank credits be employed. The depression after the last war resulted from the inflation practised during that war, and, if we go on as we are going, we shall have the worst depression that this country has ever experienced, and all the prices commissioners in the world will not be able to prevent it. Even if our own sense did not guide us in this direction, we have the example of other countries that have tried inflation. The honorable member for Melbourne (Mr. Calwell) said that Germany had deliberately inflated its currency in order to destroy the wealth of Jews and other people and that the same was true of Austria. That may be true, but, whether it is done for ‘purposes of that kind or as the result of ignorance, the result will be the same. John Buskin said that the evil that is done wilfully is at least limited to the will of the wicked person, but he asked where was the limit to the wrong a person might do in ignorance. I am afraid there is a graver danger of evil effects from inflation brought about by those who in their hearts believe it is a good thing, because there is no limit to the wrong they may do, or is likely to be caused by those who do it deliberately, in ignorance. Inflation .is, of course, the shortest cut to confiscation, but we are not going to resort to it in this country for that purpose. It is to be done because it is expected to ease the burden on those who would otherwise have to pay taxes, but I warn the Government that, whatever tricks it may play with the financial system for that purpose, they will not succeed, and certainly they will not pay.

If inflation is a bogy, it was raised by the Treasurer and not by honorable members on this side. In his budget speech the Treasurer said -

There are some people who think the war should be financed entirely by central bank credit. The Government is convinced that in that way lies grave danger . . . Expansion of bank credit, therefore, wi.th a corresponding capacity to expand production would increase purchasing power without increasing the supply of goods and services.

Those words might well have been used by the most conservative member on this side of the chamber. I quote them only to emphasize the fact that they express the opinion of the Treasurer. If it is a bogy he raised it, but it is certainly no bogy, and I houe that those who advocate expansion of bank credit will realize the danger, although it is late, indeed.

Some honorable members have referred to the fact that extravagance and waste are occurring, but the evil has not been emphasized enough. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Eadden) said that the country did not object to expenditure for war purposes, so long as there was no extravagance, but frightful extravagance is occurring. An example in careful and frugal living should be set by this Parliament and the Government. If not, words are waste of power and breath. As I said a little while ago, the people of this country, although their protests are not very loud, see what is going on and certainly are not going to subscribe to this thing that we call a loan.

Mr Holloway:

– The honorable member hopes that they will, does he not ?

Sir GEORGE BELL:

– I am perfectly sure that they will not. The fault lies with the Government, because of the way it is spending the money. Another reason for the tremendous extravagance that is going on is the number of boards and committees that have been created. One of which I know a good deal and which, I am afraid, is typical of what exists throughout Australia, is the Potato Committee. It has a controller, who has a great many officers under him, it is tremendously costly, and what it is doing is only hindering, hampering and annoying the producer without achieving any good at all. It is quite a useless body. If it allowed the trade to operate through the usual channels everything would be done more efficiently and satisfactorily. Why not allow the merchants to control the forwarding of the goods as they are required ? As a matter of fact they have been doing it all along in Tasmania, where a quota is allowed to each merchant in the town who does the business. He tells the farmer to bring in one or two loads of potatoes this week or next, and so on. If the committee wanted to cut out the expense of the commission one could understand it, whether one agreed with it or not, but as a matter of fact commission is paid to the merchants at both ends, in Tasmania and at Sydney and Melbourne, so that there is no advantage whatever in .the system. Some most extraordinary things are being done. The Minister has, as a matter of fact, made an appeal to the people to produce more potatoes and other vegetables, but the controller tells me that I must not grow potatoes unless I sign a contract. The Minister advises me that he has given no such direction, and I am quite sure that he tells me the truth, but I am afraid that he does not know what this committee is doing. It is certainly giving that direction to its subordinates, and publishing it in the press. It was also given to the agricultural officer to whom I appealed for fertilizer. I have been growing potatoes for 50 years, but, although the Minister thinks that potatoes are badly wanted, I am not now allowed to produce them. Section 44 of the Constitution forbids me to make a contract with the Government, but the committee says that 1 cannot grow them unless I do. Therefore, I cannot grow potatoes, however much they are needed. A greater absurdity could not be imagined. These people, “ dressed in a little brief authority”, go about telling people in a domineering way how they are to do their jobs, but they succeed only in causing annoyance. I am afraid there are a number of committees of that kind. They do not know anything about the industries they control, and are very costly. Quite a number of their members are receiving £1,500 a year each, and some are paid very much more. Although the Government objects very strongly to what it calls capitalists, and to taxing the wage-earner, it has no objection to paying £1,500 a year to some of these people who never before in their lives earned £400. That is where the money is going, in the guise of war expenditure.

While dealing with primary production, I wish to refer also to the meat industry and the suggestion to fix the price of beef. It is quite impracticable to fix the price of beef on the hoof. It may be possible to fix the margin of profit that the butcher shall get in his shop - even that will give the Minister some difficulty - but fixing the price of beef on the hoof will not bring one more beast to market, or increase production. Any one who understands stock sales knows that not only does the market fluctuate, but also the price of beef on the hoof varies tremendously in every market. It will vary by £1 a hundredweight for good meat, and by very much more for second class. How is it practicable to fix the price? If that be attempted, what will happen is what has happened already in respect of potatoes. The price of potatoes is fixed for the best quality, but thirdgrade potatoes, or potatoes no bigger than the top of my thumb, are bringing the same price as the best. That will aways be the case, because the price is fixed only when there is a shortage. When the good quality is sold and off the market, the law of supply and demand determines the price of the rest. It seems to the ordinary producer very unfair that he can sell third-grade cracked potatoes at the same price as the best quality brings. So with beef, if the price is fixed for best quality, and a shortage occurs, such as exists now, second and third grades will bring as much as the best.

Mr Clark:

– How would it do to fix the prices of the various grades?

Sir GEORGE BELL:

– Does the honorable member sUggest that the Prices Commissioner should send an officer to every stock sale in Australia to fix the prices ?

Mr Clark:

– Could not the prices of the different grades of potatoes be fixed?

Sir GEORGE BELL:

Mr James:

– The population of the Newcastle district is nearly as large as that of Western Australia and Tasmania combined.

Sir GEORGE BELL:

– I have given considerable thought to constitutional questions and to the size of this Parliament and I can see no reason whatever for trying at present to secure either Constitution alterations or an increase of the membership of the Parliament.

A proposal is made in the budget for the establishment of a mortgage, branch of the Commonwealth Bank. I advocated the establishment of a mortgage bank in Australia long before some honorable gentlemen who are enthusiastic about this proposal were members of the Parliament; but I have never suggested that the main business of such a bank should be to lend money at very low rates of interest. I do not believe that the overdraft system is suitable for primary producers. I favour long-term loans with substantial sinking funds The interest rate must be the current rate for general purposes. If the proposed mortgage bank be established on the basis suggested by some honorable gentlemen opposite it will simply lend money to people who, in many cases, are already bankrupt, so that they may get a fresh start in life. I do not regard that as the main purpose to be served by a mortgage bank. Some honorable gentlemen opposite would willingly alter the charter of the Commonwealth Bank in a way that would surely destroy the value of the bank. Unless they are careful they may bring about the ruin of the Com- monwealth Bank as many of the financial institutions of Germany were ruined. It has been said by some honorable gentlemen that the people desire only one bank. If that is so, and they wish that bank to be the Commonwealth Bank, they have the remedy in their own hands. The fact is that, generally speaking, people prefer to do their banking business with the private banks.

It is pointed out in the budget that the Government has reduced interest rates on mortgages and savings bank deposits. By this arbitrary action the Government has done a great wrong to many thrifty people in the community without obtaining any corresponding advantage for the community at large. The interest rate on deposits with the Commonwealth Savings Bank is now only13/4 per cent. The two savings banks operating in Tasmania pay 21/4 per cent. Prior to the action of the Government in reducing interest rates, those banks were paying 31/4 per cent, interest on fixed deposits. I regret to say that, to-day, those institutions are not permitted to accept money on fixed deposit. This has had a most unfair reaction on thrifty people. I pointed out when the last amendments of our pensions legislation were under consideration in Parliament that, under existing conditions, a person who had saved £2,000 obtained from it less income in interest than the amount of pension now payable to invalid and old-age pensioners who had no property. That, in my view, is cruel and unfair. Apparently the people prefer to lodge their surplus money with the savings banks than to buy war savings certificates. Apparently they consider savings hank deposits to be safer; though I do not say that they are right, it is of no use to argue with them. In effect, the savings banks are collecting money for the Government for they are large investors in Government loans. They must invest their money somewhere in order to be able to pay interest on deposits. The arbitrary method of reducing interest rates adopted by the Government has had a most unfair result.

The honorable member for Lilley (Mr. Jolly) made some references to-night to liquor control. Every thoughtful person in the community who has seen what is going on in the States to-day realizes that tremendous abuses are occurring in connexion with the liquor trade, especially in capital cities. The attempt to lay the blame for excessive drinking on the members of the forces is, in my view, grossly unfair. Of course soldiers on leave drink some beer, but soldiers in camp have not much money to spend on beer or anything else. A private receives 3s. a day for current spending and, if he spent the whole of it on liquor, the results would not be serious. I was a member of the military forces for 40 years. I have spent a considerable time in camps in Australia and abroad, and I have been in command of men on a troopship. I have never seen excessive drinking in camps and I regard it as a most unjust reflection on our soldiers to hold them responsible for the abuses that are occurring. Something has been done to correct these abuses, but I said a long while ago that the Commonwealth Government should insist upon the State governments enforcing their own licensing laws. If they did so there would not be much room for complaint. [Quorum formed.]

Mr SHEEHAN:
Cook

.I am pleased to have the opportunity to say a few words in referencee to the budget. The Treasurer (Mr. Chifley) deserves the compliments and congratulations of the Labour party and the people of Australia. It is a budget that is of outstanding importance to the economic life of the nation. It proposes that certain conditions shall operate during the war period, and also makes adequate provision for the defence of this country. During its twelve months of office, the Labour Government has proved that it is capable of conducting Australia’s war effort for as long as the war may last. When its first budget was brought down last year, the bogy of inflation was raised. Overseas financial journals made statements, of which the following is typical : -

Inflation looms if sound finance is sacrificed for vote catching. The budget certainly tends to increase Labour’s following, but it will be regrettable if the price for greater political stability has to be disastrous financial instability.

We have lived under that budget during the last twelve months, yet there has been few signs of inflation. Prices have been kept well under control. The present scare that Labour’s programme for the next twelve months will cause inflation is merely an attempt to bring the party into ridicule and disrepute. I was surprised at the statement of the honorable member for Darwin (Sir George Bell) that it would be ridiculous to suppose that better conditions would be obtained as the result of the war and that there would not be financial depressions. If beneficial social and economic results are not to accrue from the war, the existing capitalist system will be doomed to extinction. All thinking people declare that every effort should be made while the war is in progress to plan for the peace that will follow it. The following paragraph appeared in a British newspaper concerning the right honorable member for Cowper (Sir Earle Page) in a broadcast from a national station on his return from London : -

He had also concerned himself with the great problem of transition from a war economy to a peace-time economy. In both England and America he had found evidence that the leaders were fully conscious of the need to plan for peace now.

Food would be the great economic force in the early months of peace, and Australia must be ready to make her contribution to the peace problems.

There should be an interchange of ideas between the partners in the war. That interchange could he best achieved by a constant exchange of fully accredited representatives.

His contention was, that the representatives of the various Allied nations should advance proposals, not only in furtherance of the war effort, but also for peace-time planning. Last May, Sir Stafford Cripps made the following statement : -

After this war, there must be none of those gross inequalities that were the aftermath of the first world war, none of that disgraceful contrast between great poverty and great wealth, and no vast bands of heroic defenders of our country walking the streets in vain in search of a livelihood.

If there are to be no beneficial results as the aftermath of the war, the freedom for which we are supposed to be fighting will be lost. All the statesmen in the Allied countries have been telling us what we are fighting for. We are fighting for freedom. We are fighting for democracy. We are fighting for the right to live our life in our own way. We are fighting to put an end to aggression forever, to inaugurate the reign of triumphant peace over all the earth. We are also ‘fighting for something that is vaguely described as a new order, in which there will be no unemployment, and no poverty, but prosperity for every one, and more happiness for the whole of the human race than ever poets and seers dreamt of. It is nice to be told those things. Amidst the horrors and agonies of this worst of all wars, we must surely be entranced when we hear high authorities assure us that when Nazi-ism and Fascism have been laid low, those who have survived the slaughter and the anguish will have freedom and comfort. Yet honorable members opposite say that the aftermath of the war will be another depression. If that be the outlook of the honorable member for Darwin, I can understand his statement that there should be no enlargement of this Parliament and that he does not believe that such a democratic institution can function smoothly and successfully. The civilized world is passing through a period of very severe trials and struggles. It is fighting for its very existence against the forces of tyranny and oppression. If the democratic nations fail to achieve victory, and are denied the opportunity to plan for the peace, sadness and misery will be the lot of all. The Government has put in operation a plan in preparation for the peace that will follow the war. The budget states that a referendum of the people will be taken in an endeavour to secure for the Commonwealth the additional powers recommended by a committee of Ministers, consisting of the AttorneyGeneral (Dr. Evatt), the Minister for Social Services (Mr. Holloway), and the Minister for Labour and National Service (Mr. Ward). The Commonwealth must be vested with the powers that it needs to enable it to institute what it regards as necessary reforms.

The agitation for the inauguration of a system of compulsory loans is deliberately designed to place on the worker the burden of paying for the war. When the war shall have terminated, and as predicted by the honorable member for

Darwin (Sir George Bell) unemployment will follow, and the workers again line up in dole queues, they will probably be told that they have post-war credits and are not entitled to government relief because those credits will enable them to live for twelve months or two years. I favour the formation of groups for the purchase of war savings certificates. For thrifty people who desire to lend money to the Government voluntarily, those certificates are an excellent investment. Immediately the war is over, purchasers should be allowed to use them at their face value as a deposit on a home under a Commonwealth housing scheme. If the Government makes a public statement to that effect, I believe that a large number of people will seize the opportunity thus to contribute to the cost of the war, secure in the knowledge that immediately the war is over and building restrictions have been eased they will be able to utilize this form of credit.

At Mascot there is an aerodrome, the importance and value of which the Government, apparently, fails to realize. It is building aerodromes for defence purposes all over Australia. Because of the inadequacy of the runways at Mascot, the late Sir Charles Kingsford Smith could not leave it with his aircraft loaded, but had to load at another aerodrome. Many vacant blocks of land in the vicinity of the aerodrome that were formerly used by golf, cricket and shooting clubs, could be utilized, and by a diversion of Cook’s River the aerodrome could be converted into one of the largest civil and military flying fields in the world. Mascot would then be able to cope with all the demands likely to be made upon it in the post-war period, and even the 70-ton international transport planes which are expected to be in use after the war could land there. The Allied Works Council should immediately proceed to carry out this scheme. It may be said that a military aerodrome should not be built near a capital city or in a vulnerable locality, but that argument carries little weight in view of the Tact that a graving dock is being built at Rose Bay.

– Such an application would not be considered by the Fair Rents Court. I hope that the Government will give early consideration to the appointment of a house-planning committee, as recommended by the Joint Committee on Social Security. A national housing scheme such as has been proposed by the committee is long overdue, and should be introduced immediately. Many thousands of houses in New South Wales should be condemned as unfit for human habitation. A scheme should be inaugurated to enable industries to be transferred to the outer suburbs in order that slum conditions could be eliminated.

The honorable member for Darwin (Sir George Bell) is opposed to an increase of the number of members of this Parliament. I claim, not only that the number of members should be increased, but also that the Government should immediately draw up plans for the erection after the war of a permanent Parliament House at Canberra to accommodate 150 members and provide room for sufficient expansion to enable 300 members to be housed. I .should like the new Parliament House to be erected as a memorial to the peace that I hope will soon come with victory. The present building is only of a temporary nature, and could easily be converted into public offices. I congratulate the Government on the work that it has accomplished in the last twelve months. Its scheme for uniform income taxation throughout the Commonwealth is of considerable value. The Government will have my whole-hearted support.

Mr GUY:
Wilmot

.This has been described as an austerity budget, but I contend that that term Ls a misnomer because from some aspects it implies the antithesis of austerity. Action taken bv some members of the Ministry has shown an unpardonable waste in propelling government motor cars by means of petrol over long journeys which could have been undertaken by rail. A waste of rubber also occurs. Such a practice may be said to indicate the opposite to austerity. The budget should be called a make-believe rather than an austerity instrument. The Government is playing the game of party politics, for it has failed to stand up to its financial responsibilities, and is prepared to follow an easy way out of its financial troubles, which in this case is the dangerous way. Party and political considerations are being placed before the interests of the nation. Are we to believe that the Government is afraid to do what it must know is right, because that would be unpopular? A government must risk momentary unpopularity in order to serve the country’s needs.

The Treasurer (Mr. Chifley), in his budget, adopts the worn-out party tactics of using a few high-sounding and popular phrases in order to divert attention from the disastrous effect that the budget will have on the community. He plays with the words “freedom from fear “ and “ freedom from want “. I claim that this is the most alarming budget ever presented to this country, and, if the Government insists on adopting the inflationary methods outlined by the Treasurer, many people in Australia will be in want in the not too distant future. Undoubtedly, the budget contemplates a great measure of inflation, because, as it has already been said, a gap of £300,000,000 is to be bridged. The Government has no proposals for bridging it other than the proposal of the Treasurer, who airily says that the gap is to be bridged by loans, &c. I imagine that “ &c.” covers a mitititude of sins. The budget presented by the Fadden Government last year provided for borrowing £122,000,000. The members of the then Opposition, who now support the Government, stood aghast and shouted in horror. Yet some honorable members to-day are endeavouring to take the borrowing of £300,000,000 in their stride, and they are doing it unashamedly. The Attorney-General (Dr. Evatt), in discussing the Fadden budget last year, remarked -

A crushing burden of debt, which would be too great for Australia to bear, is threatened. I am not so optimistic as to think that a satisfactory economic structure can be erected on a foundation of public debt and interest. In making our financial proposals to the country we shall take care not to create a burden of debt which would crush our children and our children’s children, but we shall do something to make Australia a great and prosperous nation.

Yet to-day the Government of which the Attorney-General is a member is increasing the burden threefold, and is providing from revenue only 46 per cent, of the money required for contemplated expenditure. This is most unsound, and it will produce all the dire effects of which the Attorney-General claimed twelve months ago to be afraid. Taking last year’s financial activities as a guide, there is no foundation whatever for the optimistic forecast in the budget for raising £300,000,000. Instead of raising £300,000,000. we shall be very lucky if we raise one half of that amount, leaving a gap of £150,000,000 which, added to last year’s shortage, will make £225,000,000 which must be found by inflationary methods within a period of two years. Inflation is a great menace to this or any other country. Indeed, our £1 note has already depreciated very considerably. It is impossible to purchase with £1 anything like as much to-day as one could even a few months ago. The AttorneyGeneral condemned the piling up of national indebtedness, yet to-day the Commonwealth and State debts are growing enormously. Last year, they increased by over £200,000,000, and the deficit this year, added to the existing debt, will bring the total debt of Australia to something approaching £2,000,000,000. Of a total war expenditure of £440,000,000, the Government proposes to find only £140,000,000 by taxation. I protest against this unsound financial policy, which will leave a gap of £300,000,000, for which practically no provision is made. The Government is endeavouring,to get a quart out of a pint pot. There is a great field of taxation practically untouched. This field, in. which the greater part of the national income is now distributed, and where most of the nation’s spending power resides, the Treasurer is, however, afraid to touch. Every person in the community should contribute to the war effort to the limit of his capacity, and if this were done, the gap of £300,000,000 would be greatly reduced. If this is intended to be an austerity budget, it should provide for a full measure of austerity. The income group to which I have referred provides less than 4 per cent, of the direct taxation, although it receives 70 per cent, of the national income, or £590,000,000 out of a total of £850,000,000 ; yet the Government, rather than do the right thing, is apparently embarking on a policy of inflation. Inflation has been tried as an easy way out in many countries with disastrous results. Lofty sentiments on the subject of inflation were expressed by the right honorable member for Yarra (Mr. Scullin) when he was Prime Minister. While he was in England, he objected strenuously when some of his colleagues in Australia proposed to inflate the currency and to repudiate certain debts. This is what he said -

All this talk about creating credit and inflation is most dangerous. Depreciation in currency would decrease values of savings bank deposits, property would increase in price, and financial panic may result.

Those are the words of an ex-Prime Minister, who, to-day, is the financial adviser of the Government. Another financial idol of the Labour party, an ex-Treasurer, Mr. Theodore, when Premier of Queensland, had this to say on the subject of stable money -

Much confusion is caused by unstable money - trade is paralysed - commodity prices soar sky high - wages standards are lost and national bankruptcy ensues. By inflating the currency we get into a vicious circle and none suffers more than the worker.

I agree with him. No one suffers more than the worker from a policy of inflation, and those who work as primary producers suffer most of all.

Mr James:

– The honorable member supported the proposal to issue fiduciary notes.

Mr GUY:

– I voted against the proposal, as the honorable member can see if he consults Hansard. To-day, the Government is rushing headlong into the abyss of inflation. The present Treasurer, in last year’s budget speech, made the following statement: -

No book entries by the Commonwealth Bank could reduce the calls on the real resources of the country.

Nevertheless, many more book entries by the Commonwealth Bank are to be made this year. In racing parlance, the Treasurer has shown a serious reversal of form. A meeting of the stewards should be called to compare the lofty sentiments expressed in last year’s budget with the fantastic and farcial financial proposals contained in the present budget. I am inclined to think that the unanimous decision of the stewards would be disqualification for life. What is the remedy ? The Government appears to be politically afraid to do the right thing. The remedy is an all-party government. If ever there was a time in the history of Australia when the people should be united it is now. There is a definite call for a united effort by an all-party government. The present emergency demands that all sections of the community, and all parties in Parliament, should think nationally and act nationally. Honorable members who support the Government resolutely refused to be associated with an all-party or national government, and have failed to co-operate with the Opposition in the vital work that has to be done. At the last elections, the electors failed to give a mandate to either party to exclude the other from a share in the Government of the country, though it cannot be denied that an overwhelming majority expressed the desire for a Parliament pledged to the vigorous prosecution of the war. We cannot prosecute the war vigorously, and give our undivided attention to what should be a common cause, until we achieve some measure of unity among political parties.

I desire now to refer to the Department of War Organization of Industry, which most people describe as the “ Department for War Disorganization of Industry”. I recognize that many restrictions are essential, and we have no desire to escape them. On the other hand, some restrictions have been imposed which are not in any way necessary. In fact, if the department had set out to cause as much inconvenience as possible, it could not have been more successful in that direction than it is now. Notwithstanding the remarks of the honorable member for Cook (Mr. Sheehan), I maintain that the department was guilty of unpardonable bungling in connexion with clothes rationing. The Government appealed to the people not to engage in panic buying, stating that, when the coupon system was introduced, there would be plenty for everybody. Nevertheless, those who .did indulge in panic buying secured large stocks of goods. They got what they wanted, while those who were patriotic and did as the Government requested are denied many of their urgent needs. Moreover, no consideration has been given to varying climatic conditions and their effect upon the clothing needs of the people. There should be some differentiation between the warm and cold parts of Australia. For instance, a person living in Tasmania needs many more coupons than one living in Queensland. Probably, the Queenslander needs to wear his overcoat for only a few weeks in the year, while the Tasmanian needs his overcoat throughout the year.

I cannot understand why the Government imposed a ban on the delivery of meat, when the delivery of other commodities was not banned. Deliveries of bread and milk have been zoned, and there is no reason why meat deliveries should not also have been zoned. Whatever may be the position in the large centres, I suggest that there was no nee for this restriction in the smaller towns. The department could have attained its objective by issuing a regulation that petrol was not to be used in the delivery of meat, and that no one who was military fit should be employed on such work. A heavy fine could have been provided foi breaches of the regulation. In most of the smaller centres, no one of military age or, at any rate, no one who is fit foi military service, is engaged in the delivery of meat. The work is generally done by boys, or by those over military age. Moreover, petrol vehicles are very seldom used.

It is stated in the budget that it is necessary to devote attention to the development of primary industries, and with this I agree. A national plan foi the co-ordination of agricultural activities is needed. The Joint Parliamentary Committee on Rural Industries, after having considered the matter of the organization of primary industries, reported as follows on the 28th May last : -

Fully recognizing the urgency of the need for planned primary production, the Joint Committee on Rural Industries is unanimously of opinion that it is a war-time necessity foi the Commonwealth to have a definite directing and guiding hand in agricultural and pastoral policy.

For this purpose it is urged that a small but efficient federal secretariat should bs created under the strong leadership of a Commonwealth director of primary production to formulate and direct policy on a national basis. Such a director should be a forceful mau, of organizing ability and with a sound knowledge of Australian agricultural practice. He should be supported by a staff of practical technical and scientific men, including one well versed in agricultural economics. In consultation with federal departments and the Australian Food Council - of which he might well be a member - he should decide upon the requirements in the Commonwealth of the various primary products; he should devise and direct the policy that would lead to an adequate supply of such products, involving decisions as to expansion and restriction of crops and the guaranteeing of adequate prices. the director’s functions should include consultation and co-operation with the State agricultural departments, and, through the State experts, to bring the policy to the farmer. State committees presided over by the Ministers of Agriculture should be established to implement the policy, and local committees should be formed to contact and direct the farmer, and, if necessary, help him to obtain essential plant, supplies and assistance.

I agree entirely with that recommendation. It is time that something was done to assist the primary industries of this country along the lines suggested by the committee. Nevertheless, I understand that the Commerce Department has entirely ignored the recommendation. That brings me to the subject of man-power tor rural industries. A recent survey showed that the number of men working on the farms of Tasmania was 2,500 below normal requirements, which are 8,000 regular workers and 15,000 casual workers at various periods of the year, ff the drain on the primary industries is allowed to continue, production must decline substantially. I appreciate the seriousness of the situation confronting us and it is for that reason that I am apprehensive, because, if an ill-balanced scheme is allowed to continue, I am afraid that we shall have a shortage of food. I agree that we must maintain our fighting forces, hut it is also true that food is essential to the successful prosecution of the war. Not only our fighting forces, but also our civilian population must be fed. If I were to make a rough guess, I should say that there are 1,000,000 more people in Aus tralia to-day than there were a few years ago. The American troops, evacuees and refugees from other countries, as well as prisoners of war, must be fed. At a time when our population is greater than ever, our production of food is below the normal output. We hear from time to time statements that labour will be supplied for primary production, but it is not supplied. Great difficulty is experienced in securing the release of men from the Army to carry out farming operations. There does not appear to be that degree of co-ordination between the Army and the man-power authorities which is so essential to success. I know of many instances of sole workers on farms, including owners of farms, having been called up. Many dairymen also have been called into camp, notwithstanding that they are engaged in the production of essential foods. It is true that in some cases men for whose release I have approached the man-power authorities have been released for rural work for short periods, but there are many such workers still in camp. As an instance of what is occurring, I shall read an extract from a letter which I received recently from a farmer -

Shortly, I will be milking 23 cows, but without my son’s services, will be forced to leave the calves on them. I grow 1,000 to 1,500 bushels of barley each year, 40 tons of hay, a few hundred bushels of oats, which is all fed to the stock, as I am on a cold-winter place. I also grow turnips, mangels, potatoes, and am preparing the land for 35 acres of blue peas for this year.

I produce 100 lambs, and fatten an additional 100. I produce 500 pigs, and have made preparations to increase the number this year but nm unable to do so without my son’s help, as he is my main butcher. T have two teams of horses, but one is practically idle at present, as it requires all my time caring for the stock. T have been doing my very best to carry on, but find it will be impossible to do so without my son’s help, and without his rerelease I will be compelled to reduce the dairying and other essential foodstuffs which T am producing.

Many dairymen have been compelled to dispose of their milking cows because of lack of man-power on their farms. Others have left the calves with the cows. I know of instances in which potatoes have been left to rot in the ground because the Army would not release men from camp to harvest them. Many primary producers have been forced to delay the sowing of potatoes, peas, and other foodstuffs through lack of men to do the work. Another instance of lack of co-ordination between the various authorities was shown recently when the Army required a large number of bricks for some essential job. The employees of the brick kiln from which the bricks were ordered were in camp, but the Army authorities would not release them to burn bricks. Such examples of lack of co-ordination prove that the scheme now in operation is ill-balanced. Unless these defects are remedied the results will be disastrous. In a recent report the Bureau of Agricultural Economics of the United States of America stated -

Working both with the War Department and the Defence Commission, the bureau has helped to develop information about the availability of rural man-power for military as well as non-military purposes. Much was done to develop the relationship of rural unemployment to defence measures.

During the year studies have been made showing the number of men that can be released from farming and the number needed to operate the present farm plant; regional differences in the volume and rate of growth of farm youth not needed for agricultural production and numbers, characteristics and distribution of farm workers in the several parts of the country.

Studies have been made of farm labour requirements and means of adjusting the supply of farm labourers to the demand on the basis of information furnished by such studies, it is possible to develop plans for estimating the need for workers, for directing their movements inresponse to emergency changes in labour supply, and for expediting information and placement activities of the national employment service.

Had we such an organization in Australia the chaotic conditions which now exist in the agricultural sphere would not have occurred.

The budget speech contains a reference to the intention of the Government to establish a mortgage bank, but as no details are before us, the proposal cannot be discussed at this stage. I hope, however, that there will be no undue delay in introducing the bill, and that when it does come before us, it will contain pro visions which will prove to be of great assistance to the primary producers of this country. I shall have more to say on the subject when thebill is before us.

Whatever the merits or demerits of the Government’s proposal to alter the Constitution may be - the details are not yet before us - I suggest that it is not a matter for discussion at this stage. It is not proper to rush forward such proposals whilst the nation is engaged in a life and death struggle. I agree with the ex-Premier of Queensland, Mr. Forgan Smith, that sweeping proposals, such as are indicated in the budget speech, require the cool, calm and peacetime consideration of the people and should not be decided in a period of emotional thinking. That gentleman also said that it is dishonest to use the war for political ends. I fear that some Ministers are using the war to give effect to their fanatical socialistic ideas.

Mr CLARK:
Darling

.At this stage in our nation’s history the debate on the budget should be directed more to proposals for the conduct of the war than to matters of finance, hut most Opposition speakers have regarded the budget debate as an opportunity to criticize the Government’s financial proposals. Many of them have raised the old bogy of inflation, but their arguments have been answered satisfactorily by honorable members on this side. The degree to which the Government may tax the incomes of the people has rightly been referred to in the budget. The Government proposes to place the burden on those best able to bear it, but the right honorable member forKooyong (Mr. Menzies) said recently that he was in favour of taxing incomes as low as 30s. a week. If a Government composed of members now in Opposition were in power, I have no doubt that it would act on his suggestion. The references to inflation would almost make one think that we were back in the days following the war of 1914-18, when ordinary safety precautions in financial matters were not taken. With proper safeguards, such as the present Government has established, the people need have little fear of prices getting out of control, or of money losing itsvalue.

During the depression some honorable members declared that if the note issue were expanded by £20,000,000 for the purpose of financing public works, essential services and the wheat industry, the notes would not be worth the paper used in their production. The explanation which was tendered by those opponents of the use of bank credit was that a mote issue must have a substantial backing of gold. To-day no honorable member would support the contentions advanced during the depression. As those arguments were fallacious then, so the arguments to-day against the extensive use of bank credit are equally fallacious. Ample controls have been provided against inflation, which can occur only when there is fierce competition between private enterprise and the Government for materials and labour. When that competition hinders the Government in obtaining its requirements, prices must rise. Fortunately, the Government has provided sufficient controls to combat that tendency. For example, the prices of all basie materials have been fixed. A person is not permitted to build a home without first obtaining the permission of the Government. The supply of various materials and commodities to civilians has been strictly controlled. The demands of the Government for foodstuffs take precedence over those of the public. Ample protection is also provided against private enterprise competing with the Government for its labour requirements, as that can be another cause of inflation. Under the National Security Regulations, all labour, as required, is made available to the Government. Various industries have been rationalized and men have been transferred from non-essential to essential industries. In addition, proposals have been made to transfer 200,000 men and women from their present occupations in civil spheres to essential governmental works. In that way, the Government exercises adequate control over the labour market. Wages have also been pegged. ‘ Workers are not permitted to transfer from one employer to another, bargaining for higher wages, without the approval of the Department of Labour and National Service. The Prices Commissioner has fixed the prices of various basic commodities such as food and clothing. With all those checks on obtain ing materials and labour, together with the fixation of prices, ample safeguards are provided against the possibility of inflation, and people will not suffer as the result of the Government’s financial proposals. For those reasons, we can discard the bogy of inflation that honorable members opposite have raised in an endeavour to condemn the budget. In my opinion the Government is to be complimented on its budget, though honorable members opposite have condemned the Ministry as if it was a greater enemy than the Japanese. The principal purpose of the Government has been to obtain a maximum war effort. We must hold Australia for our people. This country is one of the great democracies in the world. Australians enjoy the privilege of adult franchise, and if the system is not what they desire, they have only themselves to blame. If, at the conclusion of the war, the people still have the privilege of exercising a free vote as they do to-day, they will be at liberty to introduce any policy or “ ism “ that they wish. The matter lies in their own hands.

When the present Government took office less than twelve months ago, Australia’s lack of defences was cause for alarm. Japan had entered the war, and our position was extremely grave. There was not one fighter plane in Australia. Without delay, the Government set about obtaining adequate air protection. In addition, the Government discovered that the Army had decided that the northwest of Western Australia, northern Queensland and portions of the Northern Territory were not to be defended against the Japanese. The Government was most dissatisfied with that strategy. It did not wish to allow the Japanese to gain in the north bases from which they could gradually extend their operations until they had complete command of the south. Accordingly, troops were sent to New Guinea, where to-day they are defending our frontiers against the Japanese menace. Our northern bases are amply defended against the aggressor. In order to carry out this work, the Government required substantial man-power to construct roads and aerodromes at the most vulnerable points, and to provide for defence in an emergency. For all those preparations, extensive works had to be undertaken immediately. Honorable members will recall that last Christmas the Prime Minister stated that the Commonwealth looked to the United States of America for greater aid. Prom that source, greater aid came to Australia. Considerable criticism was levelled against the Prime Minister at the time because he sought aid from the United States of America, but the right honorable gentleman knew that we could receive assistance more readily from that source than from any other. Fortunately, our hopes have been substantially realized, and hundreds of planes of various types now defend this country. But without aerodrome facilities, those planes would have been immobilized. The construction of the aerodromes constituted a major problem, because of our lack of suitable manpower. Accordingly, a vast army of men was called up to build aerodromes and strategic roads. Naturally, the Government was not happy at being compelled to take this course, but Ministers had to face realities. The honorable member for Kalgoorlie (Mr. Johnson) informed honorable members earlier of what took place in his constituency. Thousands of miners were transferred to defence works which were of far greater service to the nation than gold-mining. At present, gold is of no value to us. After it has been dug from the earth, it is simply buried in the vaults of the Commonwealth Bank. The Labour party is to be congratulated in its courage in transferring those miners to more useful occupations.

Large numbers of men have also been transferred from non-essential industries to the Civil Constructional Corps to build hundreds of aerodromes and strategic roads and railways. The men who were called up to do these jobs worked willingly, because the Government requested them to give of their best in the national interest. The conditions under which they are employed are a credit to the Government. Their remuneration is satisfactory, but honorable members should not overlook the fact that they are making great sacrifices, and are living in trying climates. The Government is grateful to them for their efforts, which will be one of the major contributions to the safety of the country.

The major problems of waging this var are those of labour and materials. Finance is quite a secondary consideration. The comments which honorable members hear when they visit their constituencies show that the public appreciate what the Government has achieved. In addition to defence works, adequate supplies of food must be provided for the armies in the field and the civilian population. An army will consume more food than a corresponding number of civilians, because the immediate requirements of the troops have to be met and ample reserves of stores have to be provided. In order to feed 100,000 men three, or even more, depots to provide against every eventuality might have to be established. For that reason very much more food is required to feed an army than an equal number of the civilian population. The Government has done a commendable job in that direction.

Our war-time problems are no greater than those which will confront us in the immediate post-war period. All the democratic nations are in difficulties to-day because in’ time of peace they did not prepare for war. We must ensure that we shall not find ourselves in difficulties when the war is over by failing to prepare for peace before the war ends. I am particularly pleased to note that the Government intends to submit to the people by way of referendum proposals for an alteration of the Constitution in order to give to the Commonwealth wider powers than it possesses in peacetime. To-day, of course, in the exercise of various forms of war-time control, the Commonwealth has almost unlimited power. In order to defend the nation it can override the State governments. However, when that power lapses twelve months after the war terminates, the Commonwealth will find itself hopelessly handicapped if its powers under the Constitution are not widened. It shall not be able to provide effectively for the rehabilitation of the hundreds of thousands of people now employed on special war works and in munitions factories, as well as the members of the armed forces. We must make preparations now for the transfer of those people to civil life when the war is over. If this be not done, conditions prevailing after the war will be infinitely more difficult than was the case in the last depression. The Government is making arrangements along those lines. Certain officers have been appointed to carry out research work with a view to facilitating the transfer of so many thousands to civilian life. For instance, works of national importance which will require urgent attention after the war are now being tabulated. The Government has also appointed a sub-committee of the Cabinet to deal with this special problem. In addition, I believe that it intends to appoint a special Minister to handle this matter. It is much easier to organize a nation into an army, and to feed and clothe people in the mass, than it is to transfer the members of that army in batches of threes and fours to civilian life, paying special attention to the circumstances of each individual.

Bearing in mind the problems which will confront us in the immediate postwar period, I urge the Government to secure ownership of all of the vessels we are now constructing in order to ensure that we shall have sufficient shipping to transport our primary products to overseas markets. It is probable that there will be a scarcity of shipping when the war concludes; and, naturally, there will be keen competition for the shipping that remains available. Owing to Australia’s distance from overseas markets, we shall have difficulty in obtaining sufficient ships to carry our cargoes overseas. We must now make provision in that direction. Overseas ship-owners will find it more practicable and profitable to concentrate in South America, because that country is so much nearer than Australia. For every cargo that can be taken from Australia to Europe, two can be brought from South American countries.

A report appeared in last Sunday’s Sydney Sun dealing with the education of university students. It was suggested that, in order to enable brilliant students from secondary schools, whose parents lack the necessary financial resources, to proceed to the university, under-graduates should be paid a private soldier’s rate of pay for the first two years, a corporal’s rate for the third year, and a sergeant’s rate for the fourth and subsequent years. The report stated that if a plan to bring brilliant students, rich or poor, to the university survived preliminary discussion, the nation’s brilliant students will be enabled to proceed to the university, where they will be maintained by the State. I wholeheartedly support such a proposal. It will prove of great benefit to the nation. Today, unfortunately, too few of the brilliant students at high schools are able, owing to the limited financial resources of their parents, to proceed to the university. I recommend that proposal to the Government. I have advocated such a scheme for a considerable time.

I also draw the attention of the Government to the present rate of exchange, which is 25 per cent, on the Australian £1 . This was fixed during the depression. To-day, we sell all our exports at a discount, whilst we buy all imports at a premium. We are obliged to pay a premium of £25 per cent, on all imported material we require for our troops. Our imports index is rising much faster than our exports index. I have not the most recent figures; but a few mouths ago, when we were preparing a case for submission to the British Government for an increase of the price of wool, £160 was required to buy what could be bought for £100 at the beginning of the war, whilst we received only £127 for every £100 we received at the beginning of the war for our exports. Thus, at present, we pay substantially war-time prices for all imports whilst for our exports we receive only peace-time prices. I have seen contracts for the sale of supplies to our allies which show a loss to the Government. At the same time, when we buy goods from abroad such as cotton yarn, or tea, no loss is incurred by those who sell those goods to us. We merely make representations that we need certain commodities, and automatically we accept the prices quoted. However, when Australia sells goods abroad the purchaser generally quotes what price he is prepared to pay, and, unfortunately, it has been our practice in the past to accept those prices. The disparity between the prices we pay for imported goods and the prices we receive for exports should be considerably reduced.

On previous occasions I have advocated the imposition of a tax on capital. I prefer to call the charge a defence insurance premium. The Government has initiated a war damage scheme under which the premium is at the rate of 4s. per cent. That insurance scheme entitles people whose property is destroyed _ by enemy action to generous compensation. The principle of that scheme should be extended. A small premium, to be known as a defence premium, should be levied on all assets in the country. Income tax is levied according to capacity to pay. However, many people possess substantial assets, whilst others own only comparatively small assets. The war is being fought largely to preserve the assets in this country, and their owners should be prepared to pay a premium for the insurance of those assets through the effective defence of the country. The revenue derived under such a scheme could be used as a set-off against the loans which the Government is obliged to raise to-day. A property-owner who is able to pay the premium in cash should be required to do so; but a person who does not possess sufficient ready cash should be enabled to do so by mortgaging his assets through the Commonwealth Bank. This insurance would apply to assets of all descriptions. Where an owner is obliged to take out a mortgage, the mortgage should remain a debt on the estate, and transfer of the estate should be prohibited until the payment of the defence insurance premium is discharged. A similar principle is applied to-day in respect of the imposition of rates by municipal authorities. Municipal rates are a charge on the property, not on the individual, and, if the property is sold, the rates have to be either paid or transferred with the asset. I suggest that the rate of interest on mortgages taken out by people unable to pay cash ought to be the same as is paid by the Government on loans, namely. 34 per cent. A person whose assets were worth, say, £30,000 ought to be very willing to contribute £2,000 or £3,000 as an insurance premium. People would count themselves lucky if they came out of the war with a substantial proportion of the assets which they possessed formerly. By the means I have suggested the Govern- ment could obtain substantial funds and I commend the scheme in the hope that budgetary provision will be made for it at an early date.

Mr. BECK (Denison) [5.47 a.m.J. - I have been sitting in this chamber throughout the night awaiting an opportunity to make a short contribution to the debate. I know that there are other names on the list before mine, but their bearers have spent the night comfortably in bed, asleep on the benches, or waiting outside until what they call “ a press “ arrives. The budget debate, of course, provides a field for unlimited discussion of any imaginable subject, and I suppose that it has its uses, but at a time like this the budget itself should be the only topic discussed- and all extraneous matters should be omitted. It is a foregone conclusion that the budget will be agreed to. The Opposition has not the numbers to prevent its passage, although it knows that by it the country is being ruthlessly exposed to an enemy within almost as bad as is the enemy without. I content myself with expressing my disapproval. All that I have to say about the honorable member for Henty (Mr. Coles) is that it astonishes me that a man with his business experience can have so lost his sense of financial stability as to expose his country to such a menace merely for the sake of political notoriety.

Mr Calwell:

– That is unfair.

Mr BECK:

– It is true and Government supporters know it. The Labour party has the unpleasant name “ rat “ for men who leave it, and it would be interesting to know exactly what they feel in their hearts about the honorable member for Henty.

The budget speech delivered by the Treasurer (Mr. Chifley) is a moat extraordinary document for a nation at war. It merely says in effect, “ We shall raise a certain amount of money, and the balance of £300,000,000 or more we shall obtain elsewhere “. The Treasurer does not budget for it, he merely hopes to pet it. I hope that his hopes are realized, for, if they are not, we shall have some hundreds of millions of pounds of new money circulating amongst the public which can have only a. most disastrous effect on our economy. In 3hort, the

Treasurer will be acting like a farmer who opens the floodgates and allows the water on his clover paddocks and, makes no attempt to drain it off thus exposing the clover to dire consequences. The Prime Minister is asking for austerity at the same time as the Treasurer is pouring money out in such a lavish fashion that austerity is impossible. Austerity is foreign to our nature and much more drastic measures will need to be taken before this absolute paradox can be corrected. I frankly consider that the people are steps ahead of the Government. They realize more than the Prime Minister does that austere living is necessary, but austerity will have to be forced on them before they will submit to it. They are, however, ready to be forced to submit to it. The Government is trying to administer this country on the departmental store principle that the customer is always right and must never be offended. But the Prime Minister forgets that the departmental store makes full provisions for this contingency in its calculations of profit. The Government, however, is afraid to impose severe taxation and raise compulsory loans because its policy is not to offend a section of the public. This budget, if it can be so described, is merely a time-winning effort on the part of the Treasurer, who knows quite well that, if the people do not accept austerity willingly, he will be obliged before many months to enforce it. He is evidently toying with the idea of compulsory loans. I should like to know of a better method of raising money. As a returned soldier of the last war I know the advantages of deferred pay, which I accepted in cash and found, very useful.

Mr Conelan:

– Did the honorable member get it in. cash?

Mr BECK:

– Yes.

Mr Conelan:

– The honorable member was lucky.

Mr BECK:

– All deferred pay was paid in cash. Bonds were given only in respect of gratuities. When compulsory loans were first advocated by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Fadden) some honorable members, who are now Ministers, objected on the ground that repayment could never be made. That is an amazing statement for present soldiers to consider. It is just as well that the Prime Minister has laid that bogy to rest. The danger, of course, is that he may not remain Prime Minister. I do not mind how much money is raised by bank credit provided proper safeguards exist to prevent its remaining in the hands of the people, because, if it be allowed to remain in the hands of the people indefinitely, we shall certainly have inflation, and the first to feel it will be those least able to stand it.

We have been informed by the Prime Minister that the cost of living has already risen by 18 per cent. Most of that increase has taken place since the present Government took office. It is still increasing and the rise will become more pronounced. I agree with the honorable member for New England (Mr. Abbott) that a percentage tax .should be imposed after ordinary income tax has been paid. The honorable gentleman cited figures which, even if they are optimistic, provide for a direct method of bridging the dangerous gap. between revenue and expenditure. I cannot imagine a fairer or more equitable method. All the Prime Minister’s fine language about austerity will be laughable if he is afraid to enforce it. The Government is playing a dangerous game. While the Government asserts that it is leaving nothing to chance in active defence measures, it is making no definite provision for the raising of the wherewithal with which to defend the country. The blood shall be on their own heads if Ministers fail to heed the warnings expressed by members of the Opposition. I do not intend to prolong this debate. There are numerous matters concerning the welfare of Tasmania which need urgent attention, but at this early hour in the morning and as others wish to speak I shall have to deal with them later. The next six months of this war will be so critical that I implore honorable members to stick to the point and let the Government do its job if it can.

Mr JAMES:
Hunter

.The honorable member for Denison (Mr. Beck) criticized the austerity campaign and implied that it was designed for only one section of the people. I assure honorable members that members of the working class Have been practising austerity day in and day out for many years. Few men on the basic wage rearing families can afford to buy more than one suit in every five years. That is the average, and that was about all I could afford when rearing a family. Remarks have been levelled against the Government by the honorable member for Wilmot (Mr. Guy), who came into this chamber in 1931 pledged to support the Labour party and its programme, but went back upon his pledges to the people of Tasmania. He voted against the then Labour Government and its financial policy, which was the same as that of the present Government, namely, that bank credit should be utilized to provide employment for the people in peace-time in the same manner us it has frequently been used in war-time to finance the manufacture of hellish instruments of death. That was the war policy to implement, in respect of which the right honorable member for Kooyong (Mr. Menzies) admits that his Government used approximately £27,000,000. If it was good enough to use money in that way, it can be used equally well in peace-time, to feed people and give them useful reproductive employment. The attitude of the right honorable member and others towards the Government’s policy is one of definite sabotage. They tell the people, with tongue in cheek, that they desire a united national government which will devote the whole of its energies to war purposes. How could we work with such a mutinous crew? I ask the people to analyse what this Government has done in comparison with its predecessor. I am quite sure that, if it does nothing more, it will go down in history as the saviour of Australia, particularly in view of the fact that, when Japan entered the war in December last, the Prime Minister, on the instruction of his Government, appealed to the Prime Minister of Great Britain to send not only the Australian troops back here to defend this country, but. also to give us assistance, although we had never previously appealed to the Mother Country, but had in every war in which it was involved given our best. We always gave the Mother Land the flower of our manhood for overseas service, in wars about which we were never consulted. It was sufficient for us to know that the Mother Country was in trouble, and we sent not only our money and equipment, but our manhood to help it. On this occasion, the Government was told, to a degree, that we could not expect assistance, and that no transports were available to bring the Australian Imperial Force hack to Australia. lt stands to the credit of the Prime Minister that he said he would appeal elsewhere for assistance. He did so, and the President of the United States of America answered his appeal, but the Opposition criticized Mr. Curtin for this action. Were it not for the action of Mr. Roosevelt, and the attitude taken by this Government, we should have been in a very serious position had the attack which was stopped as the result of the Coral Sea battle been made on this country. Every body knows that the enemy was then only 300 miles from Townsville, with a very large force threatening to invade Australia. We must pay tribute not only to this Government, but also to the President of the United States of America for answering our call, because I say quite definitely that we owe to the United States of America the fact that this country has not been invaded. Compare that with the attitude of the previous Government, which would never have asked for the return of our troops. It was prepared to conscript and send every body out of this country and leave it undefended although it was known that Japan would enter the war sooner or later. A protest was made by the working classes against shipments of iron ore and scrap iron, wool, wheat and other commodities to Japan. No notice, however, was taken of their appeal. Sydney Harbour was attacked by midget submarines, one of which I had the privilege of seeing three days after it was raised from the bottom of Sydney Harbour. It occurred to me that in ail probability those submarines were made from iron that had been obtained from Yampi Sound in Western Australia. In 1936, I pro- tested against Japan Laving a lease of a certain area at Yampi Sound, -which was handed over by the then Prime Minister, the late Mr. Lyons, to Braeserts a British company, which was allowed to deliver the consignments to Japan. It was a bogus company which acted in the interests. of that nation. One thing that stands out clearly is the attitude of the waterside workers of Port Kembla, when the right honorable member for Kooyong, as Prime Minister, “ put it over” them that they must ship that iron ore to Japan. The Labour party, which was then in opposition, was sincere in its objections, but it was common talk among supporters of the Labour movement that the then Prime Minister had the Leader of the Opposition, the present Prime Minister, in his pocket. The Prime Minister’s memorable reply, which is a tribute to his loyalty to the people of this country, was this: “ Neither Mr. Menzies nor anybody else has ever had me in his pocket. If anybody more than another has me in his pocket, it is this country of Australia that I love.” Those were good words, and I pay that personal tribute to the right honorable member. Many men considered that the Prime Minister was, to a certain degree, weak, but he has displayed his strength through this Government in his attitude to Mr. Churchill, when he said that he would seek assistance elsewhere. I repeat that, if the Government does not do anything else, it will go on record, when the history of this war is written, that this Government saved Australia from invasion.

The honorable member for Bendigo (Mr. Rankin) made some remarks concerning my constituents in particular, which comments I very much resent, because a more loyal body of citizens never existed. Statistics disclose that in the last war the mining community enlisted in greater numbers than those in any other. In and around the district from. Newcastle to Tamworth, comprising coal-mining centres and a good deal of dairy-farming land, actually three battalions were raised and maintained. A doubt has always been raised concerning the Australian coal-miners’ loyalty owing to strikes, but twice the number of strikes has taken place in British and American coal-mines since the war began. The loyalty of our coal-miners therefore cannot be challenged successfully.

As regards the proposal of the Government to submit a referendum to the people, the honorable member for Darwin (Sir George Bell) stated that he did not think that the people of Australia would do anything but reject the suggested increase of membership of this Parliament. In making that prediction, the honorable member is holding a losing ticket. When he was speaking, the Minister for Health (Mr. Holloway) -asked him by interjection how many electors he represented, and he replied : “ Approximately 30,000.” That is about one-half the size of the ordinary constituency in New South Wales or Victoria. Federation would never have been achieved unless the people had believed that it implied the discontinuance of State Governors and ultimate abolition of the State Parliaments. That statement is true of every part of Australia except, possibly, Western Australia. I lived in that State for a number of years and am. aware of the arguments that were used there against the proposal to federate. One of these was that Western Australia had no land transport facilities linking it with the eastern States. Since then the transAustralian railway has been built, and, in more recent times, aeroplanes have provided an auxiliary service. As a matter of fact, Western Australia is not distant, in flying time, from Canberra. In any case, unification sentiment is growing in Western Australia month by month. I believe that an increase of the membership of this Parliament is absolutely essential to enable it to do its work effectively. If various State instrumentalities should come under Commonwealth control, the appointment of extra representatives of the people to the Commonwealth Parliament would be inevitable. There are approximately four to five State members for each member of the Commonwealth Parliament The present Commonwealth electoral basis does not give adequate representation to the people. Many services now provided by State instrumentalities could be provided by local-governing authorities constituted on a wider basis than those at present operating. I believe that, with unification, we could co-ordinate many governmental activities with distinct advantage to the people. In any case, post-war reconstruction makes unification, or at any rate a substantial enlargement of Commonwealth power, unavoidable unless we are to face a repetition of the chaotic conditions that followed the termination of the last war.

It is particularly necessary that the Commonwealth shall be granted additional power in relation to arbitration and marketing. The James appeal case showed the deficiency of Commonwealth powers in relation to marketing. The Commonwealth, as honorable members will recollect, desired to stabilize and organize the marketing of certain primary products, but Mr. James - he is no relation of mine, let me say - desired freedom to trade within the State. He won his appeal and the Commonwealth was rendered practically helpless to achieve its objective of orderly marketing. In relation to arbitration, we had a Premier in New South Wales - and a good man too - who endeavoured’ to maintain the then State basic wage of £4 2s. 6d.

Mr Spender:

– What was his name?

Mr JAMES:

– Lang. At that time, the basic wage in some of the States was low. In one State it was only £3 5s. a week. Victoria and Queensland were both operating under a low basic wage and certain manufactures of those States were offered for sale in New South Wales under conditions which caused great hardship to the local manufacturers. If we could have a common rule in relation to arbitration awards, with a common basic wage for all States, a much more satisfactory industrial situation would develop. We must have this extra Commonwealth power if we are to organize effectively for post-war days.

An attack has been made on the Government in the last few days on its compulsory trade unionism policy. Honorable members of the Opposition must realize that compulsion is inevitable in relation to the law. Every law passed by the Parliament involves the compulsion of some of our citizens. Honorable gentlemen opposite are concerned to retain the present capitalist system, whereas we on this side of the chamber wish to see it abolished. We also wish to see the workers consolidate their position. The slogan “United we stand, divided we fall “, carries with it a great truth. We speak frequently in this chamber about freedom and liberty. Where is our liberty under the law? It is true that we enjoy a greater degree of freedom than do people in totalitarian countries, but nevertheless, the law implies compulsion. Honorable members enjoy greater liberty, in some respects, than do other citizens of the country, but some of us have been suspended more than once from the service of this House because we have transgressed the Standing Orders which are the laws governing our proceedings. I believe that I have the highest record of any honorable member in this respect, though the Minister for Labour and National Service (Mr. Ward) probably runs me a close second. Government sunporters hold the view that whether a man belongs to the pick and shovel or the black-coated brigade, he is still a worker and needs the support of the trade union movement. The Labour party developed from the trade union movement. In the eighties and ‘nineties of the last century the Labour movement was weak, and in days when members of Parliament did not receive an allowance for their services, the trade unions drew generously upon their own funds to provide sustenance for Labour members of Parliament. The Labour party was able, even in those times, to secure the enactment of major reforms, because it held the balance of power. In the early days of the movement, particularly in New South Wales and Victoria, invalid and old-age pensions schemes were provided because theLabour party forced the issue; and in 1908, the late Sir Littleton Groom introduced a bill in this Parliament to provide Commonwealth invalid and old-age pensions, but he- was forced to do it by the pressure of Labour politicians. I make no secret of tb e fact that the Labour movement, as I. understand it, advocates the establishment of a socialist state, wherein production shall be for use and not for profit. When that day comes, international strife and bloody wars such as we are now passing through will be much less likely to occur. Many of the wars of years gone by were caused by trade differences and the attempt of particular nations to obtain profitable markets. A good deal has been said in this debate about the depression of a few years ago. That depression need not have occurred. Although many of our people went hungry in those dark days, there was an abundance of food in the country. Our granaries were full, and our bulk stores were bursting with surplus stocks. Yet Sir Otto Niemeyer told our people that they must tighten their belts. The Labour Government that was then in office, but not in power, was forced to consent to a programme that was abhorrent to it for it was unable to obtain money to carry out projects that appeared on its programme. After the last war, every effort was made to meet interest obligations while people were allowed to starve. I say definitely and clearly that that kind of thing must not happen again. If it is good enough for our sons to shed their blood, and even to give their lives, for their country, it should be good enough for the wealthy classes of the community to forego interest on money they lend to the nation to prosecute the war. When we are able to eliminate the profit motive from trade and commerce, we shall be a good distance on the road towards the realization of the brotherhood of man., goodwill among nations, and peace on earth. These ideals will be achieved through the unity of the workers of the world and they will be expressed through the Parliaments of this and other countries which will initiate reforms in order that the masses of society may live decent lives in reasonable comfort, and enjoy the products of their labour. Surely that is not too much to ask in a land in which there is more than enough to go round ! Yet, under the present economic system we have passed through periods of crisis, which have been accompanied by unemployment and starvation, while the stores have been bursting with the commodities that have been needed to sustain human life; but because they could not be disposed of profitably, they were destroyed. Will the soldier who returns from the present war consent to be subjected to the conditions that operated after the last war, when many men had to take up a swag and search for an elusive job? The Government has been criticized because it has commenced to plan for the peace. The Opposition has said that the present is not an opportune time for the institution of social reforms. I acknowledge that every energy must be strained in order to achieve the end that we all desire. At the same time, however, I want to inspire the manhood of this country with the knowledge that, by means of social reforms, they will at least be assured that their aged parents shall be catered for as the Government has already catered for widows under its widow’s pensions legislation, and for families under the child endowment scheme. The people have confidence in the Government because it has shown its bona fides not only in prosecuting the war, but also in giving effect to its social reform policy. We are now budgeting for an expenditure of £549,000,000. What a tragedy it is that such a huge sum should be expended on the destruction of mankind; necessarily, otherwise we might ourselves be destroyed. ‘ The people will recall that during the Scullin regime a sum of £18,000,000 was sought to be raised in order that employment might be provided in reproductive undertakings that would have developed this country. A hue and cry went up. A run on the banks was caused, and the Government Savings Bank of New South Wales was compelled to close. Had certain interests succeeded in their aim, the Commonwealth Bank also would have been closed on the plea that inflation was likely to result. In war-time, action on similar lines is described as the utilization of the credit resources of the nation. Whenever there has been a shortage of subscriptions to loans, previous governments have allowed the Commonwealth -Bank to underwrite them. It’ it be good enough to utilize the credit system of the nation in war-time in order to manufacture hellish instruments for the destruction qf mankind, the same system of finance should be used in order to provide the employment that the people require to enable them to purchase foodstuffs. We are well aware that after the war unemployment will prevail unless something definite be done to prevent its occurrence. Everybody knows that the advent of mechanization in not only the coalmining industry, but also every other industry, has eliminated man-power. The honorable member for Bendigo (Mr. Rankin) questioned the loyalty of the coal-miners, thousands of whom in the Newcastle area are shedding their blood and giving their lives for this country, which in peace-time could not provide them with a job. In order to escape from economic pressure, and to remove from their parents the burden of maintaining them, many young men left home, because while so housed they could not obtain the dole or relief work, the official view of the State Government being that they were adequately maintained on the income of £2 10s. a week earned by the father as a coal-miner. Those who, as in the last war, seek to profiteer in war industries and to draw increment from investments, must realize that the money they receive is stained with the blood of the flower of the manhood of this country, many of whom had never been given the right to work before they left Australia to fight. Their bones are bleaching on the battlefields of the world. I plead with this Government and Parliament to avoid discontent among the men who return. We must plan for greater reforms in order that those who have wealth shall be exalted by christian ethics into a desire to help the poor. He who gives to the poor, gives to the Lord. The existing system cannot continue, and we must plan for a more equitable one.

I direct attention to the 22nd annual report of the ‘Commissioner of Taxation, in regard to fines imposed upon people who have lodged questionable returns. I refer first to the amount owing by way of fines, not only by living persons, but also by the estates of deceased persons. There is no hope of recovering that amount and the Government, instead of following the policy laid down by its predecessors, should endeavour to negotiate with these debtors with a view to arriving at a compromise. I should feel it very much were my father indebted to this country by way of tax, because of neglect, fraud or otherwise. I should regard it as my duty to try to liquidate the debt, if for no other reason than to prevent annual publication of it in the report of the Commissioner. I have gone to the trouble of consulting the Taxation Department, and have been furnished by it with the following figures: -

A summary of cases in which the additional tax did not amount to £50 for each taxpayer shows that the amount of the under-statement was £895,714, and of the additional tax £11,859, making the grand totals - under statement £3,541,525 ; additional tax £299,645. [Extension of time granted.]

It is rather alarming to find how wide a discretion the Commissioner of Taxation can exercise. I should not disclose the names that I am about to read, were it not for the fact that they have already appeared in the 22nd annual report of the Commissioner in respect of income earned in the years 1938-39 and 1939-40. The following table shows the amounts by which some incomes have been understated, the extra tax charged, and the proportion which the extra tax bears to the amount by which the income was understated : -

There are many other equally glaring examples of the exercise of a wide discretion by the Commissioner of Taxation. I understand that the late Senator Johnston handed to a member of this chamber, a certain statement on the understanding that it would be read to honorable members.

Mr Bernard Corser:

– He did not do anything of the kind.

Mr JAMES:

– I am pleased to be corrected on that matter, in which I had relied on a newspaper report. His understatement of income is set down at £36,000, and the fine amounts to no less than £60,000. or nearly 200 per cent. [Further extension of time granted.] Mr. T. C. Trautwein was a member of the New South Wales Parliament, and he is 74 years of age. He was asked to account for certain transactions extending as far back as 1911, when he transferred a property in trust to a child three years of age. He also had to give particulars of transactions relating to transfers to his wife in 1916. I put it to honorable members that any man who does not try to make provision for his family has very little regard for those for whom he is responsible. Mr. Trautwein admits that he transferred certain property, including some bonds, to members of his family. After having been in and out of gaol over a period of two years, he was released for a month in order to give him an oppor tunity to trace these bonds. He had accounted for all but £12,000 worth when the time expired, and though the Official Receiver appealed to Mr. Justice Lukin for an extension, this was refused, notwithstanding the fact that he had been released on the bond of £50,000, and had to report twice daily including Sundays. This is not prosecution, but persecution. Mr. Justice Lukin, who refused the application, retired from the Queensland Supreme Court bench in 1926 on a pension of £1,000 a year. In the same year, he was appointed by the Bruce-Page Government to the bench of the Commonwealth Court of Conciliation and Arbitration at a salary of £2,500 a year, making his income £3,500 a year from salary and pension. During the depression in 1931, he refused to accept a reduction of salary under the Premiers plan, although reductions were accepted by other judges and by the then GovernorGeneral, Sir Isaac Isaacs. Mr. Justice Lukin is in his dotage; he willbe 75 years of age on the 4th January next. The Scullin Government recognized the viciousness of this modern Judge Jeffries, and removed him from the Arbitration Court bench to the Bankruptcy Court, where it believed he could do no harm. Even there he has earned an unenviable record by keeping women in gaol, and now by refusing Mr. Trautwein an opportunity to clear up his affairs. The Government should not hesitate to remove him from hia present position, which should be encumbered with rejects from other States. Mr. Trautwein is an old man himself now, being 74 years of age. He is prepared to pay the amount for which he was assessed, hut the fines imposed by the State and Federal taxation authorities amount to over £300,000 so that if the property of the whole family were sold up - which this judge is prepared to do - it would not yield enough to pay what is demanded. The Government is in urgent need of revenue, particularly h view of the evident determination of the Opposition to sabotage the £100,000,000 loan. Therefore, the Treasurer should come to terms with Mr. Trautwein, and accept a reasonable payment. I exhort the Treasurer to require the Commission ex of Taxation to remit the fines and the Treasurer should also inquire why the Commissioner, in the exercise of his discretionary powers, treats some taxpayers so leniently, while persecuting others. The Government should give some measure of justice to members of Parliament, whether of State legislatures or of the Commonwealth Parliament. Mr. Trautwein was a member of the Legislative Council in New South “Wales, where ite had a record of which any man might be proud. The late Senator Johnson, though he was opposed to me politically, was a man who always stood up for what he believed to be right. He was a great Australian who, as a member of the State Parliament in “Western Australia and of the Senate here, took a prominent part in the development of Western Australia. Why, therefore, should his name and other names be recorded in an official publication among the list of debtors when they are prepared to pay their original assessments? He married late in life, and left a wife and young family. There was no time to prevent the inclusion of his name in the current report of the Commissioner of Taxation, but unless some action be taken it will undoubtedly appear in the next report. I ask the Treasurer to look through the report, and there he will see the names of many men, some of them, perhaps, friends of his own, recorded for all the world to see as debtors of the Commonwealth when, by compromise, we could eliminate the whole lot.

Mr PROWSE:
Forrest

.I have been much surprised to note, during the course of this debate, the support given by certain mem’bers of the Labour party to the Government’s budget proposals, although, when they were in opposition, they expressed views diametrically opposed to those now advanced by the Treasurer (Mr. Chifley). Some of these honorable members have stated over and over again that it was possible to finance the war effort by Commonwealth Bank credit without increasing the national debt, and without paying interest. Now the Treasurer has included, in bis budget statements directly opposed to that view, yet those same honorable members swallow them, and continue to give him their support. Here is one extract from the Treasurer’s budget speech -

There arc some people who think that the war should be financed entirely by bank credit. The Government is convinced that in that way lies grave danger.

The honorable member for Melbourne (Mr. Calwell), and the Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin) himself, have made statements in support of banking reform. The Minister for War Organization of Industry (Mr. Dedman) used to spend most of his time, when in opposition, trying to prove that the country could be financed without increasing the national debt and without paying interest. Now he is in the Cabinet, and is evidently prepared to accept the Government’s financial policy, which is just the opposite of what he used to advocate. The honorable member for Maranoa (Mr. Baker) is apparently still confident that the trick oan be worked. The honorable member for Riverina (Mir. Langtry) used to go nearly frantic when he thought of how governments used to borrow money and pay interest on it; yet ‘he, too, is now prepared to accept the budget, and contents himself with merely criticizing the speeches of members of the Opposition. The honorable member for Calare (Mr. Breen) and the honorable member for Reid (Mr. Morgan) are, apparently, also convinced that it is possible to perform this piece of legerdemain, and obtain finance in the easy way. Senator Darcey is known throughout the Commonwealth because of his frequent references to section 504 of the report of the Royal Commission on the Monetary and Banking Systems. The Treasurer went on to say -

X have shown that we have already drawn on practically all our reserves of labour and equipment, and that the recent expansion of the war effort has been achieved by subtraction from peace-time production. I have made it clear that the further expansion of war activity means further reductions of the things that will remain for civil use. Expansion of bank credit, therefore, without a corresponding capacity to expand production, would increase purchasing power without increasing .the supply of goods and services. Increasing the volume of money without increasing the supply of goods for civil consumption not only creates the danger of inflation, but also sets up serious competition between demands for civil goods and demands for war requirements. Clearly, then, as further physical resources are provided by the nation for war, so must further financial resources be similarly provided from the savings of the people. This can be done only if every individual saved and contributes to the utmost of his capacity.

Those are sane common-sense statements, but the speech of the honorable member for Hunter (Mr. James), which was wholly along party political lines, was in direct contrast. For the most part Government supporters who have spoken have condemned the Opposition for expressing views similar to those of the Treasurer in his budget speech. We on this side have said that no person in the community should be better off financially because of the war, and that those who gain some benefit because of war conditions should make substantial contributions towards the safety of the country which has given them so many privileges. The Labour party claims that trade unionism has conferred great benefits on the workers of this country. Surely honorable members opposite know that if the Japanese defeat us those privileges will be lost, and trade unionists made slaves by the Japanese. It is clear from the Treasurer’s speech that the Government is of the opinion that the whole strength of the Australian people should be thrown into the fight against the enemy and that no person should escape making the contribution of which he is capable. In his concluding remarks the Treasurer said -

We must resolutely face the fact that we are engaged in an “ all-in “ struggle for our very existence.

That is the position in a nutshell. An “ all-in “ struggle surely means that all should be engaged in the struggle, and that none shall escape.

Mr Conelan:

– It means all our money also.

Mr PROWSE:

– Yes . This Government and its predecessor went a long way towards taking all the income of a person in the higher ranges of income. The placing of further burdens on that section of the community would hinder the nation’s productive capacity. This country will not progress if capital needed for its development be taken. Already persons in the higher ranges of income are liable to a tax of 18s. in the fi. The Treasurer’s speech continued -

In that struggle physical resources will be the deciding factor. Those resources must come from the people. They must be used to the fullest capacity, and whatever sacrifice is necessary must be accepted. No legerdemain can produce the needs for war. Neither can they be obtained by easy financial expedients, The plain fact is that we are fighting with all our resources for the very right to commence afresh life as a nation.

As this fourth year of war opens we are faced with the sternest struggle that has ever confronted our people. Never before have we been threatened with invasion and forced to meet a direct frontal assault upon the coasts that ring our liberties. Never before have we had need to achieve so much so soon. Never before has the nation sent out such an urgent call to its people.

No selfish thought of personal comfort should divert us from the grim task that lies ahead. By vigorous self-denial, every one can play a useful part in winning the war. The Government calls upon all Australians for a maximum contribution.

– Italy is now our enemy, and we must deal with these aliens in our midst as Italy would deal with our own nationals in that country. An Australian in Italy at the present time would be compelled to pull his weight. 1 recognize the difficulty in policing these people.

If they are put to work, they will have to be watched. They work very hard ‘in their own interests, and earn from £1 to £2 a day. If they were set to work at military rates of pay, they would probably require * little prodding.

Mr Ward:

– What wages should the farmers pay for that labour?

Mr PROWSE:

– As much as they pay to their sons and to the sons of other people in the fighting forces. If the Government considered that the aliens should receive more than our soldiers, the difference between the two rates could be placed into a fund. I have no objection to that course. I emphasize, however, that this labour should be more fully organized. These Italians are cheeky, if I may be permitted to use such an expression. They are at times insulting, and it behoves the Government to pay greater attention to them.

Mr CONELAN:
Griffith

This is proving to be a marathon debate upon a colossal budget. The Treasurer (Mr. Chifley) and the Government have a tremendous task ahead of them, but when I consider their achievements during the last twelve months, I look forward with great confidence to what they will achieve during the current financial year. The Fadden budget of 1941-42 provided for an expenditure of £319,000,000, of which £217,000,000 was for war purposes. A few weeks later, the new Labour Government increased the total budget to £444,000,000, of which £320,000,000 represented war expenditure. The Fadden budget included a provision for the imposition of compulsory loans. Explaining that it would not be difficult to obtain compulsory loans, the Treasurer of the day stated that 2,780,000 persons earned salaries and wages under £400 a year. But he did not tell Parliament that he included in his calculations females, juveniles and members of the fighting forces. There are 450,000 persons in receipt of an income of less than £100 a year, totalling £30,000,000. Approximately 400,000 persons earn incomes between £100 and £150 per annum, totalling £50,000,000. Persons earning between £150 and £200 per annum number 450,000, and their incomes aggregate £80,000,000. In other words, 1,300,000 persons are included in the group receiving less than £200 a year, less the basic wage. They already experience considerable difficulty in making ends meet, without contributing to compulsory loans. In 1939-40 the income of 2,652,000 people receiving £400 and under per annum totalled £520,000,000. In 1940-41, there were 2,709,000 persons in this group, and they earned £560,000,000. The income derived in 1941-42 by 2,780,000 persons aggregated £590,000,000. Bearing in mind the colossal sum involved in the budget, I consider that it would be- impossible to obtain from these incomeearning groups, an amount adequate to bridge the gap between expenditure and revenue. The Treasurer has budgeted for the enormous amount of £549,000,000, of which £440,000,000 will be for war purposes. But the national income has increased during the last twelve months by only £55,000,000. The Treasurer proposes to obtain £249,000,000 from taxation and other sources, and the balance of £300,000,000 from loans and bank credit. I shall examine the loan flotations undertaken by the three governments that have been in office since theoutbreak of war. The Menzies Government and the Fadden Government floated five loans. The first, which was placed on the market in December, 1939, was for £12,000,000, and was subscribed with the assistance of the Commonwealth Bank. Three months later, the Government floated a loan of £18,000,000, which was over-subscribed by £165,000. In. May, 1940, a further loan of £20,000,000 was placed on the market and was oversubscribed by £583,000. In November of that year, the Government floated a loan of £28,000,000 which was oversubscribed by £499,000. The next loan of £35,000,000 was floated in April, 1941r and was over-subscribed by £872,000. In other words, those governments floated loans for £113,000,000 which were oversubscribed by £2,119,000. They had the assistance, not only of the Commonwealth Bank, but also of the private banking institutions.

Shortly after the present Government took office, it floated a loan of £30,000,000 which was over-subscribed by £4,159,000. In February, 1942, the Government floated a loan of £35,000,000. It was over-subscribed by £13,332,000. Last June, another loan of £35,000,000 was over-subscribed by £2,382,000. An analysis of those figures reveals that, although the Government asked the people to subscribe £100,000,000, it obtained £119,870,000. Does not that prove that a realistic Prime Minister and Treasurer of a Labour Government are able to inspire the people to support Commonwealth loans? I am confident that they will reach the souls of the nation on this occasion, and have nothing to fear regarding the success of their loan policy.

The Treasurer stated that he will ask the people to subscribelarge sums of money for the purpose of assisting to bridge the gap of £300,000,000, and the balance will be made up by national bank credit. This is only the beginning of the fight of the new method of finance against the old orthodox system. When the Scullin Government was in office in 1931, the Treasurer of the day desired to raise a loan of £18,000,000 from the Commonwealth Bank, £6,000,000 of which was designed for the relief of distressed farmers to prevent them from going bankrupt, whilst the other £12,000,000 was for the purpose of placing people in employment over a period of twelve months. The bank credit was termed a “ fiduciary note issue “. When opponents of the plan raised the bogy of inflation, the Scullin Government announced its willingness to peg the basic wage at the rates ruling in 1929, so that neither inflation nor deflation could occur. The Senate took every possible step to defeat the object of the Government. It even summoned the chairman of the Commonwealth Bank Board, Sir Robert Gibson, to the bar of the Senate to tell honorable senators that the money could notbe raised. The mat ter was then referred to a parliamentary committee for the purpose of defeating the will of this chamber. At that time, the Bank of England floated a fiduciary issue of £38,000,000. The notes for that amount were of a different colour from that of the ordinary paper currency. The Commonwealth Labour Government of the day offered to redeem the loan of £18,000,000 in a certain period. It was then that the bogy of inflation was first raised. It would mean the ruination of the country. Ever since that period, anti-Labour parties in Australia have persistently raised this bogy. However, when the Fadden Government proposed to employ £78,000,000 of bank credit, no honorable member opposite said anything about inflation. Yet, when this Government in its last budget proceeded to give effect to its predecessor’s plan in that respect, they again raised the old bogy and prophesied the country’s ruin. If we, as a nation, are unable to face up to this problem, what hope have we of defeating the totalitarian countries who do not worry about bank credit. The people of Australia who have been educated in monetary reform now realize what all this kind of talk means. They are not afraid of the bogy of inflation, and when the Government approaches them in the near future, they will not display any such fear. Honorable members opposite are always anxious to quote what Great Britain is doing in the prosecution of the war. For the current financial year, Great Britain has budgeted for an expenditure of £5,286,000,000, but has made provision to raise only £2,400,000,000 from revenue. That leaves a gap nine and a half times greater than the gap in this budget. At the same time, Great Britain’s population is only six times greater than Australia’s population. If it be possible for the people of the United Kingdom to bridge a gap of £2,884,000,000, it is not. asking too much of the people of this country to bridge a gap of £300,000,000. I repeat that the Government will again stir the souls of the people, who will respond very generously to ensure the survival of the nation in its present dire emergency. When honorable members opposite were speaking so much about inflation, I interjected on several occasions that the Government would control the monetary system. Instead of the- country being the servant of the money power, the Government would make money the servant of the nation. For too long, Australia, has been the. servant of interests and international banks. It is time that we realized that we must stand on our own feet and help the nation to achieve its great destiny under the leadership of wise governments. The right honorable member for Kooyong (Mr. Menzies) emphasized the decline in the sales of war savings certificates. I interjected that the reason for the decrease was that, as the lower paid workers now have complete confidence in the Government, they are investing in loans, whereas previously they subscribed to war savings certificates. I, myself, for instance, invested £100 in the last loan, whereas previously it was my custom to buy war savings certificates. Many of the lower- paid workers are following that course to-day, because they have complete confidence in the present Government. Honorable members opposite also had much to say about compulsory loans, They implied that workers in war industries are. now- receiving excessive incomes. In the man-made depression of 1931, hundreds- of thousands of our workers could not obtain a decent meal. To-day, most of those people are in employment. They are now able to buy the necessaries of life of which they were deprived for so many years. Surely, it is not too much to allow those people who have pioneered this country, and raised large families, and, in most cases, have sons and relatives fighting in the armed forces, to have a few of the little things that were denied- to them in their years of unemployment. In the existing circumstances, it is impossible for them to squander what little money they might be able to save. I have no doubt that they will readily place at the service, of the country any small savings they may be able to. muster.

The aggregate debt of the Commonwealth and the States at the 30th June last amounted to the colossal total of £1,629,000,000, or an increase of £203,000,000 during that year. That sum was made up of £718,000,000 Commonwealth debt and £911,000,000 State debts. That increase was due entirely to war expenditure. To-day, Australia is paying £1,000,000 a week interest on that debt. A few years ago, this Parliament could not find a few million pounds in order to place the workless in employment. It could not find £2,000,000 in order to implement the national insurance schema legislation which it had passed. Opponents of that scheme claimed that it would cause inflation.

Honorable members opposite also criticize our refusal to form a national government. It would be just as easy to mix oil and water as to attempt to amalgamate the Government and Opposition parties in this Parliament. The Menzies Government- held office for nearly two years. The right honorable member for Kooyong (Mr. Menzies), when he was Prime Minister, was absent overseas for four months, and the government of the country was carried on far more effectively during his absence. As soon as he returned to this country, intra-party strife developed in a fight for the leadership of the opposition parties. In one camp, the main contenders were the right honorable member for Cowper (Sir Earle Page), the honorable member for Barker (Mr. Archie Cameron) and the honorable member for Indi (Mr. McEwen). At the lastmoment, the right honorable member for Darling Downs (Mr. Fadden) came up under their necks and defeated them for the leadership of the Country party. Later, he succeeded the right honorable member for Kooyong as Prime Minister. The disintegration of the Opposition parties was brought about, not by the Labour party, but by honorable members opposite themselves. When the right honorable member for Darling Downs assumed the Prime Ministership, he did not control a majority in this chamber. He had no guarantee of the support of the independent members. I deplore the sniping of the honorable member for Henty (Mr. Coles) which has been indulged in by honorable members opposite. That honorable gentleman entered this Parliament as an independent. The right honorable member for Kooyong declared that he had the solid backing of the United Australia party at the election at which he succeeded. The real reason for that was that the United Australia party believed that the honorable member for

Henty would give it his unqualified support. He did so for one year, until he learned the actual state of affairs existing in this country. Possessed of a high sense of duty, he decided, in the interests of the nation, to vote against the Fadden Government. I believe that he is quite satisfied with the achievements of the present Government, and that he will support it so long as it remains in office. What would have been the position had a national government been formed ? Opposition members of the Advisory War Council could not agree among themselves as to whether the Australian Imperial Force should be brought back from the Middle East. Had there been a national government at that time, endless controversy would have been caused over their proposal that members of the Australian Imperial Force should bo left to fight a rear-guard action in Malaya and Burma. Of course, the Government acted on its own initiative, and brought back our men from the Middle East in order to defend their own country. Had a national government existed at that time, endless controversy would also have arisen over such an issue as conscription. The present Government will not approve conscription for overseas military service. It has approved the conscription of young men for service in the defence of this country. The patriotism of those men is undoubted. The Minister for the Army (Mr. Forde) has told us that an average of 6,500 members of the Australian Military Forces are voluntarily transferring weekly to the Australian Imperial Force.

I now propose to deal with the vene- mous allegation which has been made by the honorable member for Indi (Mr. McEwen) against the Government that it is introducing compulsory unionism. Compulsory unionism has been in force in Queensland for a very long time. Incidentally, that State has had- for many years the highest basic wage and the lowest cost of living of the Australian States. If men from other States are required to work in Queensland, surely it is not unreasonable to ask them to accept the industrial conditions laid down in that State. I recall that before the Government assumed office, the honorable member for Indi received a letter from one of his constituents. The honorable gentleman saved that letter until this party took office and then brought it to light in an attempt to discredit the new Ministry, but the Prime Minister gave him a good dressing down. But the honorable member resurrected the matter again during this debate. He admits that young men have left the land to go into munitions factories where their pay is very much higher. The same thing has happened in South Australia. That is one cause of the sad depletion of man-power in primary industries. The conditions in industry that preceded the introduction of conciliation and arbitration, which came as the result of the united efforts of men who were prepared to make weekly contributions from their wages in order to improve their lot, were deplorable, and it is only right that those who derive benefit from the better conditions gained for the workers by the unions should be ready to make the trifling payments which membership of these unions entails. Honorable members opposite have referred frequently to compulsory contributions by unionists through unions to political parties. In Queensland, which is the only State, except Western Australia, where compulsory unionism applies, few trade unions are affiliated with the political Labour party and they contribute only ls. a member per annum to party funds in respect of their affiliation.

The Government has been attacked for its handling of the coal-mining industry and other industries in which strikes have taken place, but I point out that similar strikes have taken place in every other country. In New Zealand, Canada, the United States of America and the United Kingdom strikes occur every week.

Mr Ward:

– Far fewer strikes have occurred since this Government has been in office than when the Opposition was in power.

Mr CONELAN:

– Yes ; that indicates that this Government possesses the confidence of the Australian workers.

I shall conclude by reading a newspaper cutting from London dealing with Australia’s austerity campaign -

In a two column despatch from its Melbourne correspondent, which it publishes on the leader page, the Times to-day gives the British public its first comprehensive picture of austerity in Australia. This tribute to the Commonwealth’s additional far-reaching war measures, affecting the whole community is widely road here, with its many new facts and figures. Surveying the political situation and the prospects of an early general election, the correspondent says, “Nobody disputes the Opposition’s duty to direct attention to defects in the war effort. It is the hypercritical manner in which the Opposition has discharged its function that evokes every one’s misgivings, except those taking pleasure in party politics in war-time “.

That bears out the fact that the Government has done a very good job, and that it holds the confidence of the people. I nin confident that the people will rise enthusiastically to assist the Government and that there is no need to fear for the success of the voluntary loans.

Mr WILSON:
Wimmera

– The criticism of the budget has been mostly on the question of inflation or the methods employed’ to’ raise the necessary moneys to carry on the domestic policy of the country and finance the colossal war expenditure. We have had much advice from honorable members opposite about compulsory loans. I regard loans, whether compulsory or voluntary, as an evil. I have never thought that either an individual or a nation can borrow its way to prosperity or even to victory, because the aftermath of borrowing is such that, not only those who carried arms on the field of battle, but also those who have borne the burden at home on the production side are held in perpetual bondage as a result of those loans. To my knowledge no government loan has ever been redeemed. Loans become to all intents and purposes a perpetual debt on the nation, for ever bearing interest.

We have been told that the Government has introduced many reforms in the control of banking and methods of finance, but I find it difficult to discern where we have any greater control than we had in the past. I am one of those who subscribe to the view that finance is so vital to the nation and to the people that it should not be permitted to be controlled by private profit-making in- stitutions. I hope that the day is not far distant when the full realization of this truth will be forced home upon this Government or other governments, and that the necessary steps will be taken to ensure that the Government shall not be a power secondary to finance. I believe that that is still the position to-day. The method that is being used in issuing bank credits to-day is one with which I cannot agree. The issue of treasury-bills, which on presentation can be converted into currency, is substantially wrong. This money should be issued straight out without any process of this character. Not even the comparatively small rate of interest which is now being paid should be paid. I said that the loans were never redeemed. I say, therefore, that any undertaking that compulsory loans will be repaid after the war must be dismissed as not factual, because, .in effect, the paper which represents these loans is to all intents and purposes a new issue of currency, as the bonds are negotiable always. In addition to being currency, it is curency upon which the community has to pay interest for ever and ever. I could go into these matters in great detail, but I have no doubt they have been traversed by other honorable members. I do hope that the Government will have the courage to apply the financial policy, which I for one believe is necessary to save the nation from perpetual debt. I hope that the day is not far distant when those reforms which are urgently necessary will be adopted and that the present fraudulent system of finance - I cannot call it anything else - will bc abolished for ever.

With regard to fear of inflation, that can be very effectively controlled by rationing and price control. To the credit of the Government that control is proceeding through government instrumentalities, and I hope that it will be carried further and further. Rationing and price control are, I believe, as necessary in peace-time as in war-time. As far as taxation is concerned, we could go a great deal further and bring home to the people some real austerity. We could level down and bring about a state oi affairs where the people would bo approaching the economic level of those who are bearing arms in tho defence of this country. If we had the courage to do that, we could bring about some real democracy by enforcing equality of sacrifice in the war effort.

I understand that a new commission is to be appointed to deal with post-war reconstruction. I hope that the Government will proceed with the appointment of that commission as quickly as possible and that it will soon get to work. Only in this way can we properly repatriate our fighting men when the war is over. I hope a better job will be done this time than was done after the war of 1914-18. The Commonwealth should assume the full responsibility for carrying out its own scheme, and make early appointments of those who are to carry out this great work, instead of turning the job over to the States. The Repatriation Act bristles with anomalies, a fact of which every honorable member of the House is conscious. We all have been repeatedly approached by old soldiers whose bodies were broken or severely injured as the result of the last war, but who, because of the harshness and rigidity of the act, can obtain no relief. Too many of these cases have come before us. Whilst we are overflowing with sympathy with them, and the Minister for Repatriation also has often expressed his sympathy, he has referred us to the act saying, “ There it is, we cannot do anything about it; the tribunal has said so-and-so “. Consequently, there is no relief for the poor old soldier and his dependants; once he has played his part, and the war has been won, we are very apt to forget what we owe these men and their dependants.

On the credit side there is also something to be said for the Government regarding the increase that has been made in the pay of members of the forces and their dependants. I commend the Government in that regard, and trust that it will see that, as time goes on and the men return, the fullest justice shall be meted out to them, so far as it is humanly possible.

On the credit side also is the action of the Government in increasing invalid and old-age pensions. I commend Ministers for that also, and although it has imposed an extra cost of approximately £1,000,000 on the Consolidated Revenue, in the terms of present-day finance that is merely a drop in the bucket. There is in Australia to-day one dangerous trend that we have to face, that is, the increasing number of our people who are going on to the pension list. It reveals the fact that our rate of increase of population has reached a dangerous stage, and that we are rapidly approaching a period when we shall have an undue proportion of our people qualifying for the receipt of pensions. With the continuation of the fall in the birth rate, that is something about which we have reason to be apprehensive. In this regard the child endowment system, which has been introduced, will be very beneficial, and I give full marks to the previous Government which had the foresight to introduce it. I hope that it will be amended and improved by the present-day administration. There is also something to be said to the credit of the Government in regard to widows’ pensions. I commend it also for this reform, which I trust will be administered compassionately; if necessary, its provisions should be extended. The same remarks apply also to the maternity allowance. All these reforms represent progressive social benefits which must, in the long run, be of advantage to the community.

The development of the paper pulp industry in Australia is another matter of which it would be well to remind the Parliament and the Government. Here is an industry which has been set up, encouraged and nurtured by the Government and which, as I notice by recent press reports, has made a profit of something like £250,000. There is nothing wrong with that from the point of view of the company, but there are certain other implications in regard to the enterprise. Amongst these, I see a great denudation of our forest areas, with accompanying erosion, which, from a national point of view, must have a serious effect on our pastoral lands. There is no doubt that erosion has been accentuated, and my information is that it is increasing on a vast scale as the result of the operations of this industry.

Mr Pollard:

– They should be counteracted by attention to reafforestation.

Mr WILSON:

– I thank the honorable member for Ballarat for that reminder. There is another factor which I consider dangerous in this connexion, and that is that this monopoly, which controls the industry of manufacturing paper and paper-pulp, is slowly hut surely securing a grip on the production of newsprint and other forms of paper, in the Commonwealth. The result in time will be to place it in a position to say what newspapers shall receive supplies of newsprint. The implication there is very clear, namely, that the power of this strong press group will enable it to impose upon people a further monopoly which will be used for propagating what it thinks good for the people, and nothing else. I mention that fact to the Government and sound that note of warning.

I refer now to man-power, and the lack of balance between what is required for the armed forces, for food producing, and for other primary industries. Those of us who represent country constituencies have had this matter brought particularly home to us. We have had hundreds of letters from farmer constituents who are placed in a most serious position in regard to the operation of their farms and the shearing of their sheep. Their young men have been taken, or have volunteered, for the Army or other branches of the fighting forces, with the result that sheep cannot be shorn or crops harvested. The old men and the womenfolk are left behind to do the best they can. .No one realizes more than I do that the defence needs of this country must come first, but hand in hand with that must go full provision to maintain the food supplies of the nation, not only to meet our domestic obligations and the requirements of our armed forces, but also to fulfil our obligations to Great Britain and our allies. I am surprised indeed that at the present time we are unable to make some gesture to our heroic ally Russia in the way of sending food supplies.

Mr Pollard:

– We ought to lift the ban on the Communist party.

Mr WILSON:

– I shall consider that suggestion later. There are also at present hundreds of thousands of new season’s lambs ready for marketing, or coming onto the market. My information is that labour is not available to enable their slaughtering to proceed. The result will be a glut in the market, and producers will be mulcted of large sums of money by the depressed prices that will be offered for these lambs. In fact, in some cases there may be no sale at all. If they should be held back on the farms until such time as they can be marketed, they will have to be shorn. Here again, we are short of shearers, and are hedged about with regulations which I believe were drafted by persons who are not really cognisant of the needs of the industry. However, I am glad that the Minister for the Army (Mr. Forde), in response to a question which I put to him, announced that he was prepared to consider convening a conference representative of the interested bodies. From the Government’s point of view these would be the Departments of Commerce and the Army and the man-power authority. I hope that if such a conference be convened, and those discussions t-‘1-! place, some more scientific manner 0- allocating and distributing our man-power, so as to create a balance between the needs of the armed forces and those of the food-producing industries, without detriment to our war and defence effort, will be devised.

The effect of the war on the dairying industry, which is suffering a reduced output, is a matter of grave concern. The dairy farmers find themselves severely handicapped, and their financial position has greatly deteriorated. In addition, the Government proposal for daylight saving has imposed upon them an additional burden, and caused them great inconvenience. I have received many letters from dairy farmers on this subject. One writer says -

I am a dairyman with two herds on shares, and, as I see it, the objections to daylight saving are as follows: - We have to commence milking all through the season when daylight savings are in force, at least one hour before daylight, thus using extra electricity for lighting, and are at it again soon after 2 o’clock, which means that cows are shut up in the yard during the peak heat of the day, which makes them fidgety and they do not give their milk freely. All animals take their direction from the sun and resent unnatural interference. No amount of juggling with the clock will save daylight, or alter the courses of the sun, which is at its height at 12 o’clock.

I have heard numerous dairymen say they would not recognize it, but are forced to do so because factories, trains, &c, do so, and children have to be got ready and sent off to school by mothers who have been previously in the cow yard, so that there is nothing else for it.

That bears out the statement that dairying is almost a slave industry -

I have heard suggestions about having it in the cities, but not in country districts, but I think that is impossible and unworkable.

I have made those quotations in order to indicate some of the difficulties with which producers are faced, together with others imposed by the loss of man-power from which the primary industries are suffering. I agree with the writer that it would not be a practical proposition to apply daylight saving to the cities and not to the country, but I very much doubt whether the benefits claimed for the daylight-saving scheme can be justified.

I could not conclude this speech without making a few observations on the wheat industry. Successive governments have tried, over a period of ten or twelve years, to help the wheat-growers out of the difficult position in which they have found themselves. I have frequently pointed out the seriousness of their position to honorable members, hut so far all the efforts to stabilize the industry have either failed or only afforded temporary relief. None of the palliatives applied have had lasting benefit. The new scheme propounded recently by the Minister for Commerce (Mr. Scully) is already being undermined by the activities of certain banks and financial institutions which are seeking to increase rent3 and charges associated with wheatlands which they own. It would therefore he advisable for the Government to peg rents and values of wheat-lands without delay. Unless some such step be taken these institutions will undoubtedly rob the new scheme of a great part of its value.

I was glad to receive an assurance from the Treasurer a few days ago that the bill to provide for the establishment of a mortgage bank will be introduced almost at once. Perhaps the provisions of that bill may benefit the farmers in a greater degree than any other factor. Like other honorable members, I am curious to hear the details of the Government’s proposals in relation to capital, eligibility for benefits, the period of the long term loans, and so forth. I trust that the new bank will prove to be of substantial benefit to the farmers.

Once again I emphasize the need to decentralize the secondary industries of this country. Unless some such action be taken, we shall never develop a strong and virile industrial community in our hinterland.

Mr Ward:

Mr MCDONALD:
Corangamite

– Mr. Prowse-

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Prowse).The debate is closed.

Mr McDonald:

– You gave the Treasurer the call in preference to me, although I had not spoken.

Mr Clark:

– That does not matter.

Mr McDonald:

– It does matter. I have certain rights. I suppose that no honorable member occupies the time of this chamber less than I do.

Sir Earle Page:

– On a point of order, I submit that the speech of the Treasurer does not close the debate. It is absolutely essential that in committee the Treasurer shall have the right to intervene at any time. That has been the practice in this Parliament ever since I have been a member of it. I believe, also, that the Standing Orders make that provision.

The CHAIRMAN:

– I am informed that the speech of the Treasurer, in reply, closes the budget debate. I am not aware of any standing order that governs the matter, but if there be one I shall be guided by it.

Mr McDONALD:

– -By way of personal explanation, I wish to state that I rose as the Treasurer did. Naturally, you, sir, gave the call to the honorable gentleman. You were perfectly entitled to do so. But the fact that, having risen, I did not insist on being given priority ought not to debar me from speaking.

The CHAIRMAN:

– I consider that I am entitled to rule that the honorable member may be heard.

Mr Ward:

– Then there will be other speakers.

Mr McDONALD:
CORANGAMITE, VICTORIA · UAP; LP from 1944

– I had not intended to participate in this debate, but I have been impelled to do so by the provocative speech of the Treasurer to which we have just listened. The honorable gentleman said that not one substantial recommendation had; been made from this side of the chamber, and that Opposition members had raised the old bogy of inflation. The first mention of inflation was made by the honorable gentleman himself, in his budget speech. In that, he referred to the dangers of inflation. Although he addressed his criticism to this side of the chamber, the most severe critics of the budget were members of his own party. By the sentiments that they expressed - several of them were given an extension of time - they showed that in many respects they entirely disagree with the financial policy of the Administration that they are supporting. Because of that, I take strong exception to the statement that no constructive remarks have been made by honorable members on thisside. I did. not absent myself from the chamber in order to have a sleep, but remained, in my place until 6.30 a.m. when [ left it in order to have a bath and a meal. So that the honorable gentleman may not be able to assert that no constructive remarks have been made from this side, I point out to him that the men of the fighting services of Australia are making a very substantial contribution to the finances of this country, in the form of deferred pay. In the Royal Australian Air Force, the Army and the Naval Service, this amounts to approximately £20,000,000 per annum. A single man in the Army who draws only £155 a year, including deferred pay, makes a contribution of £36 10s. in the form of deferred pay. If the Treasurer invites a constructive suggestion, I put it to him that he apply the principle of deferment to the payments made to members of Parliament and wage-earners, and to all other incomes. I submit that that is a fair proposition. If the Government says to men who are undergoing every imaginable hardship, “ “We propose to keep back 2s. a day of your pay”, it would be fair to say also to wage-earners and members of Parliament, “ “We are going to defer the payment of 2s. a. day in respect of you “. Those who are living in comparative comfort and security are not asked to make any contribution in the form of a compulsory loan, whilst the men who are taking all the risks and are doing all the fighting are compelled to forgo 2s. a day as deferred pay. If the Treasurer sees any semblance of justice in that, I am astonished.

I wish to refer to certain of the statements of the honorable member for Ballarat (Mr. Pollard). That honorable member scarcely did me justice when he said that I had sneered at an assistant cook on a dredge that had been taken from Melbourne to Fremantle. I did no such thing. I merely picked out the assistant cook as the lowest-paid man in the crew. As a matter of fact, the average amount paid to the members of the crew was £96 for a fortnight, not £65 10s. - the amount that the assistant cook received. I am indebted to the honorable member for having given the reason for the very considerable increase of wages that was granted to the members of that crew. No Minister volunteered the information. The honorable member eloquently and spiritedly stated that it was because of the extreme danger of the trip, and the fact that the employment of these men was intermittent. I admit quite frankly that he went on to say that the Government had made an additional payment of ls. 6d. a day to the fighting services.

Mr Pollard:

– I did not say anything of the sort.

Mr McDONALD:
CORANGAMITE, VICTORIA · UAP; LP from 1944

I draw the attention of the Minister for “War Organization of Industry to the great difficulty which will be experienced by graziers in disposing of their fa t stock unless the Government can ensure that sufficient man-power will be made available to handle it at the time when it is ready to be marketed. The number of sheep that are grazed on the pastures can well be left to the graziers themselves, but the Government will find it necessary to improve the organization for the handling and transport of the stock, if a great waste is to be prevented this season. I have been impelled to make these few observations, because I think that the Treasurer did less than justice to members of the Opposition in his reply to the budget debate. No member has spoken less or done less to hinder the Government than I have, but I do not like to be accused of raising bogeys that were not mentioned at all until the Treasurer pointed to the danger of inflation.

Sir EARLE PAGE:
Cowper

– Mr. Speaker-

Mr Curtin:

– I rise to a point of order. I submit that, in accordance with practice, the Treasurer, having replied to the debate on the first item of the Estimates, closed the general debate.

Mr Fadden:

– The Chairman has ruled against that.

Mr Curtin:

– “Well, the Chairman is entitled to a second thought, the same as any one else. For the first time in this or any other Parliament, it is proposed to continue a general debate after the Treasurer has replied. I submit that the question should now be put, the Treasurer having concluded the debate.

Sir Earle Page:

– My experience in this Parliament extends over 23 years, and I know that the practice is that the Treasurer is at liberty to intervene in the budget debate as often as he wishes.

Mr Frost:

– Not on the first item.

Sir Earle PAGE:

– Yes, on the first item, and it will be found by any one who looks up the records that Treasurers have frequently intervened- during budget debates for the purpose of elucidating various points, and that the debate has continued afterwards.

Mr Makin:

– I have been a member of this House for as long a period as the right honorable member for Cowper, and I have had the privilege of occupying a position - that of Speaker - which gives me some justification for offering an observation on this point. It has been the constant practice to regard a debate on the first item of the Estimates in the same way as a second-reading debate. The position of the Treasurer is that he moves a motion, speaks to it, and at the conclusion of the debate has the right to reply. The point of order taken by the Prime Minister has been logically argued by him, and is supported by the practice of this Parliament ever since I have been a member of it. It would be contrary to practice to allow the debate to continue after the Treasurer has replied.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The Chair was under the impression that as Ministers have the privilege at all times to rise, the principle would apply to the Treasurer during the debate on the first item of the Estimates. The Treasurer and the honorable member for Corangamite (Mr. McDonald) rose simultaneously. The ruling of the Chair was not opposed to the Standing Orders, but it was evidently opposed to the practice of the House, and I believe that the Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin) and the Minister for the Navy (Mr. Makin) have stated the position correctly. Had I realized that the Treasurer would close the debate, I should have called on the honorable member for Corangamite when he rose. I have been advised- that the debate had been closed, but I allowed the honorable member for Corangamite to speak because he had been shut out owing to a misunderstanding. I now rule that the debate has been closed.

Mr Ward:

– I think that there has been discrimination.

The general debate having concluded -

First item agreed to.

Progress reported.

Silting suspended from 9.22 a.m. to 2. SO p.m.

page 690

QUESTION

ESTIMATES 1942-43

In Committee of Supply: Consideration resumed.

The Parliament

Remainder of proposed vole, £164,000.

Sir EARLE PAGE:
.Cowper

.- As the decision given earlier to-day upon a point of order was one of great public importance, I suggest to the Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin) that the matter be submitted to the Standing Orders Committee for review during the approaching recess. I have always considered that during the long debate on the financial statement, opportunity should be given to the Treasurer to clarify points that are raised. Very often new issues arise, and sometimes interpretations are placed upon the statement by outside organizations. The Treasurer is the only person who is thoroughly cognizant of all the details, and a further explanation by him is imperative. If my memory be correct, when Mr. S. M. Bruce was Treasurer he dealt very fully with the financial proposals in a second speech which he delivered in the course of the budget debate. I am not in a position to say what is actually meant by the existing Standing Orders dealing with this point - I know only what has been done in the past - but I suggest that if they were examined by the Standing Orders Committee, which is an impartial body with a great deal of experience, this matter could be seen in its proper perspective. I point out that if it were desired that the Treasurer’s second speech should not close the debate, it would be necessary only for some member to move an amendment, to which the Treasurer would have the right to speak. That, of course, would be simply inviting members to move amendments. I consider that it, would be in the interests of the Government, the public generally, and members themselves, and would improve the standard of debates, if reform along the lines that I have suggested were done. The Standing Orders provide several methods by which debates can be terminated should the Government so desire. Those methods are explicit and direct, and it would be far better to employ one of them than to use a cumbersome and indirect method. My views on all-night sittings have been welT known for many years. I am in favour of the use of the guillotine, provided a reasonable time is allocated to each subject, and I should be prepared to support its use with a view to obviating all-night .sittings. That, however, is apart from the original question to which I addressed myself, namely, that the Treasurer should be permitted to intervene in the debate on the financial statement, in the same way as a Minister may intervene when the estimates for his department are under discussion.

Mr Conelan:

– If what the right honorable member .for Cowper suggests were done honorable members would be kept up .all night waiting for the debate to close.

Sir EARLE PAGE:

– If the Government wishes to close a debate the Standing Orders provide many methods whereby that can be done. In the interests of the public and of the Government itself, it would be far better if the Treasurer were permitted to intervene at any time during the debate upon the financial statement.

Sir GEORGE BELL:
Darwin

– I was not present this morning when the point of order to which the right honorable member for Cowper (Sir Earle Page) has referred was raised; therefore I may not be quite familiar with the exact point in dispute. However, my own view of the Standing Orders, as distinct from the general practice, is that the Treasurer has the right to speak a second time. That is exactly what the right honorable member for Cowper wishes. I understand that the question that arose this morning was whether in speaking a second time, the Treasurer would close the debate. That is another matter. My view is that he would not close the debate.

Mr Makin:

– It must be remembered that the discussion was not upon the Estimates for the Department of the Treasury. The matter under consideration was the first item of the Estimates.

Sit GEORGE BELL. - I realize that. There, the question of practice has to be considered. In my opinion the Standing Orders, if interpreted strictly, give the Treasurer the right to speak a second time, but in speaking a second time he would close the debate. This question has arisen before in this chamber. In 1929 the then Prime Minister, Mr. S. M. Bruce, claimed the right to speak a second time in the course of a similar debate. My view was that he had the right to do so, but the question which then arose was whether in speaking a second time he did or did not close the debate. That is the only point at issue so far as I can understand the Standing Orders. The practice in this Parliament in discussing the ‘first item of the Estimates has been to permit a general debate, as if on a substantive motion, and for the Treasurer to speak in reply, but the Standing Orders do not specify that. Therefore my view is that what has .been requested by the right honorable member for Cowper is strictly in accord with the Standing Orders.

Mr CURTIN:
Prime Minister · Fremantle · ALP

– I shall be glad to submit this matter to the Standing Orders Committee for consideration during the recess, together with quite a number of other aspects of procedure, which I consider require restatement, and, in some instances, clarification. I think that certain rules may be required in order that practice may be made clear, and I shall be glad to request the Standing Orders Committee to consider this matter. With reference to the episode which occurred this morning, all that I have to say is that the practice as I understand it is that the first item on the Estimates is regarded as admitting of a discussion, analogous to that which would mark consideration of the second reading of a bill. Such a discussion may cover, not only the range of everything that is in the budget statement and the Estimates, but also matters that are beyond them, which means that it may be much wider than a second-reading debate. Also, the practice is that the Treasurer, who has introduced the Estimates, may speak in reply, and his reply closes the debate.

Mr Spender:

– That seems to be right, because after all the discussion is upon a motion.

Mr CURTIN:

– That is so. That the detailed consideration of the Estimates is not involved is made clear by the fact that we are now dealing with the re- mainder of the first item. At this stage the Treasurer is free to speak any number of times, as is any other Minister when the Estimates for his department are under discussion. That is to say, he can answer every critic immediately if he feels so disposed, and you, Mr. Chairman, will give him the call. If that practice were adopted in respect of the consideration of the first item as such, we should have the extraordinary procedure, as each honorable member who had criticized the Government sat down, of the Treasurer rising to reply to him. That would be rather ridiculous, and therefore practice has given to us a form of procedure which, until a standing order explicitly deals with the matter, ought to be observed in the interests of efficient and satisfactory parliamentary deliberation.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Proposed vote - Prime Minister’s Department, £838,500- agreed to.

Department of External Affairs

Proposed vote, £161,400.

Mr JOLLY:
Lilley

.- I want to obtain some information in connexion with the Australian Legation in China. I notice that the vote is considerably larger than that of the previous year. It amounts to £37,000, whereas the vote for the High Commissioner’s Office in Canada is only £15,000. Is this regarded as normal expenditure?

Dr EVATT:
Minister for External Affairs · Barton · ALP

.- The extra expense incurred on behalf of the Australian Legation in China during the last twelve months is due to a number of factors. This is the first full year in which the legation has been operating, and a very great burden has fallen upon the Minister, Sir Frederic Eggleston. His activities have been of inestimable value to Australia. His despatches, and the close liaison which he maintains with the Chinese Government, the British Ambassador to China, and the representatives of other governments at Chungking, have helped the Commonwealth Government in many ways.

Mr Harrison:

– The reason for the increase is shown in the details of the proposed vote. Communications will account for about £18,000 more than is allotted to the High Commissioner’s Office in Canada.

Dr EVATT:

– I am glad that the honorable member mentioned that fact. For example, the cost per cabled word from Chungking to Australia is 7s. as compared with 71/2d. from Britain to Australia. The difficulty of maintaining ordinary communications has greatly increased since Japan entered the war, and there has been a large increase of the volume of cable communications between this Government and the Australian Minister at Chungking. That increase applies not only to this legation, but also to the Australian Legation in the United States of America.

Mr Menzies:

– Prices have risen very much in China.

Dr EVATT:

– Yes. The manner of life there has imposed very special difficulties on the Minister and his staff. I assure the committee that the expenditure is watched carefully by the Department of External Affairs. For the money expended at the legation, Australia is obtaining very satisfactory and efficient service.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Department of the Treasury.

Proposed vote, £1,616,000.

Mr SPOONER:
Robertson

.- I draw the attention of the Treasurer (Mr. Chifley) to the position thatnow exists with regard to a regulation which may affect Treasury receipts. I refer to Statutory Rule No. 76 of 1942, which gave an intimation to the public of a proposal to introduce a tax on profits exceeding 4 per cent. I have no intention of discussing the merits of that proposal; I merely draw attention to the position that exists owing to the non-repeal of two sets of regulations that were brought into force earlier in the year. The first was No. 76, the effect of which was to warn companies not to dispose of their assets in excess of 4 per cent, of such profits. The regulation was amended subsequently by Statutory Rule No. 110 of 1942, which stated -

This regulation shall not come into operation until a date not earlier than the first day of July, 1042, fixed in that behalf by resolution of both Houses of the Parliament or by an Act of the Parliament.

That is still the position. As these regulations stand, there is an intimation that a tax may come into operation as the result of a resolution or act of Parliament. The Prime Minister and the Treasurer have made official statements to the effect that the Government will not proceed with this taxing proposal. In those circumstances, the regulations should be repealed. I take this view because the warning implicit in these regulations will stand until they are repealed. No official announcement, even by the Prime Minister or the Treasurer, can have any effect so far as the obligations and responsibilities of companies are concerned. I admit that the regulations and the plan that was contemplated can not operate unless there is a resolution or an act of Parliament. However, the warning effect of the regulations will be operative until they are withdrawn. If the Government changed its mind at any time and if a resolution of both Houses or an act of Parliament were passed for the purpose of introducing a tax upon profits in excess of 4 per cent., the effect would be that companies that had distributed more than 4 per cent, since the 1st July, 1942, would have done so wrongly, and with full knowledge of the warning contained in the regulations, which are still in operation. The companies would not be able to plead successfully that they had considered themselves to be liberated from their obligation by reason of announcements made by the head of the Government or by the Treasurer. The position should be clarified, because the existence of the regulations is a source of considerable worry to a number of companies.

Mr CHIFLEY:
Treasurer · Macquarie · ALP

– My attention has not been directed to the matters raised by the honorable member for Robertson (Mr. Spooner), but I shall examine the regulations to which he refers. If his interpretation of them be correct, arrangements will be made to repeal them.

Mr JOLLY:
Lilley

.- As the result of the introduction of the uniform income tax, the Treasurer’s vote has been increased by approximately £500,000. I should like some explanation as to the economies that will be effected to offset this increased expenditure.

Mr CHIFLEY:
Treasurer · Macquarie · ALP

.- In 1941-42, payments to State governments for the collection of Commonwealth taxes totalled £486,344, but during the current financial year they will be reduced to £88,780. Against that saving, however, general expenses have been increased. Following the introduction of the war tax, approximately 1,000,000 new assessments were issued during the last financial year. The honorable member will note that increases of expenditure appear to be ‘balanced by economies.

Mr Curtin:

– The payments to the States would have been considerably greater if the Commonwealth had not introduced the uniform income tax.

Mr CHIFLEY:

– That is so. At the moment, however, I am unable to supply to the honorable member exact figures as to increases of expenditure, and savings.

Sir FREDERICK STEWART:
Parramatta

– The vote for the payment of services rendered in connexion with the sale of tax instalments stamps amounts to £67,000, compared with an expenditure of £52,197 last year. I should like the Treasurer to explain that increase. I also direct attention to an anomaly in the administration of the sales tax law. For example, a well-known and reputable authority on gardening and farming recently published a number of text books which the Department of Agriculture in New South Wales accepted as most uptodate literature on these subjects. Because the author advertised his seeds and plants in these text books, the Commissioner of Taxation ruled that proceeds from the sales of the literature shall be subject to sales tax. But the author was told that he would be at liberty to advertise, without the obligation to pay sales tax, the seeds and plants of other horticulturists. I ask the Treasurer to rectify that inequity.

Mr CALWELL:
Melbourne

.- In his budget speech, the Treasurer stated- that a committee of Cabinet consisting of the AttorneyGeneral (Dr. Evatt), the Minister for

Labour and National Service (Mr. Ward), the Minister for Social Services (Mr. Holloway) and himself had recently given special consideration to the problem of post-war reconstruction. So far as I can discover, the Estimates contain no provision for expenditure by that committee. I emphasize the vital urgency for speed in this matter. In my opinion, the subject cannot be properly handled when four busy Ministers are expected to divide their time between winning the war and planning for the peace. This work should devolve upon a special Minister. The honorable member for Flinders (Mr. Ryan) suggested the appointment of a Minister for Post-War Reconstruction and Economic Re-organization, and I agree that one Minister should have the sole responsibility for organizing the resources of the country to re-absorb men and women into remunerative employment. Although that Minister would probably find that every member of this Parliament is far too busy with assisting to win the war to be able to devote any time to post-war reconstruction, there are members of the State parliaments and the various municipalities, as well as many men and women holding representative positions, who are most anxious to do everything within their power to prepare the way for the return of the country to peace-time conditions. Every person who has some contribution to offer should be able to place his views and services at the disposal of the Minister for Post-war Reconstruction. I cite the example of beleaguered England, where, in spite of anxiety about grave shipping losses, and the “blitz”, the Government is still able to consider post-war planning. Various committees are engaged in . examining particular problems, and from time to time abridged reports of their activities are published in the Australian press. I am afraid that if this work is left to the scant consideration that four Ministers can devote to it and until the Commonwealth Parliament is clothed with wider powers, valuable time will be lost in tackling this all-important problem.

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Prowse).Order! The honorable member will not be in order in discussing the general aspects of post-war reconstruction. The subject is not mentioned in the Estimates.

Mr CALWELL:

– I am stressing the point fervently and vigorously, and I trust, with some little eloquence, in the hope that the Treasurer will make provision in the Estimates for work of this sort, and that I shall so impress the Prime Minister that he will announce that Cabinet will consider the appointment of a Minister to attend to post-war reconstruction.

Mr Menzies:

– Why not appoint an additional Minister?

Mr CALWELL:

– The right honorable member for Kooyong (Mr. Menzies) is the last one who should talk about appointing additional Ministers. When he was Prime Minister, he appointed three additional Ministers, but instead of solving his troubles thereby, he increased them. I should not like the present Prime Minister to have that performance.

I hope that the Government will make a practical approach to the problem of posit-war reconstruction without delay. At present, many thousands of people fee] that their efforts are being frustrated because there is no Minister whose sole responsibility is to handle post-war reconstruction. They are anxious to cooperate to the best of their ability with the Government on our second greatest problem; winning the war is our first.

Mr FADDEN:
Leader of the Opposition · Darling Downs

.- I find it difficult to understand why, in time of war, it should be necessary to increase the expenditure on the Bureau of Census and Statistics from £64,095 last year to an estimate of £72,000 this year. I should like the Treasurer (Mr. Chifley) to explain that increase.

Mr BARNARD:
Bass

.- Although the budget speech mentioned post-war reconstruction, no provision is made in the Estimates for expenditure on that purpose. Planning for post-war reconstruction is a matter to which the Joint Committee on Social Security has paid considerable attention. On this subject the honorable member for Flinders (Mr. Ryan) made an excellent speech during the course of the general debate, and I agree with him that other countries - Great Britain, Canada, the United States of America, and New

Zealand, to quote only four - are already planning for post-war reconstruction.

The CHAIRMAN:

– Order ! A general discussion on reconstruction is not permissible at this stage in the absence of a specific .item relating to the matter.

Mr BARNARD:

– I bow to your ruling. I do not desire to discuss the general subject of reconstruction. I merely seek to draw the attention of the Treasurer (Mr. Chifley) to the fact that, whilst his budget speech referred to this subject, no provision is made for it in the Estimates. There is much to be said in favour of creating a special ministry to deal with post-war reconstruction. At any rate, the Government should appoint a body of experts who would devote their whole attention to it. The press reported last week that provision had been made in Great Britain for the erection of 4,000,000 homes for the people and that plans were now being drawn. Whatever be the ministerial direction of the .postwar reconstruction, two things stand out, first, the necessity for hard work, and, secondly, the necessity for the provision of funds. The social security of the people is one of the objectives for which we are fighting. I support what has been said on this subject by the honorable member for Melbourne (Mr. Calwell). The Minister for Social Security (Mr. Holloway) should state the policy of the Government on this matter.

Mr FRANCIS:
Moreton

– I support what was said by the honorable member for Melbourne (Mr. Calwell) about the multiplicity of controls of planning for the post-war period. A clearly defined policy should, be laid down by the Government in regard to post-war reconstruction, and the vagueness which characterizes the ministerial direction of this matter should be dispelled. The Australasian Manufacturer contains an article from which the following is an extract : -

Is not the hour long overdue for the Prime Minister, speaking for the whole of Australia, definitely and finally to say what is to be done - and who is to be responsible for the doing of it?

Until there is a speedy termination of the present confusing overlapping of the functions of the multitudinous war departments - the Department of Munitions, the Department of Supply, the Department of Labour, the Department of War Organization of

Industry, the Department of Aircraft Production - the industrialists of Australia must inevitably be impeded in fulfilling the one task to which they desire to give their wholehearted energies - the task of efficient wartime production.

The chaos to which that article refers is indicative of the disinclination of the Government to grapple with the major problem that will arise when hostilities cease. Nothing should be left to chance or to direction by already overworked Ministers. I appeal to the Government to give serious consideration to this matter. If it considers that it needs help I shall be willing to assist it in whatever way I can.

Mr MARWICK:
Swan

.- I direct the attention of the Treasurer (Mr.- Chifley) to item 2- “Office requisites and equipment, stationery and printing, £68,830 “-and to item’ 12- “ Payments to State governments for rent of furniture and equipment, £10,240 “ - under the general expenses section of division No. 25, which relates to the taxation office. The Commonwealth Government is taking over the functions of some of the State taxation departments, which have hitherto collected income tax on its behalf. I hope that this change-over will not result in a repetition in the taxation office of what happened in the Allied Works Council, and that there will not be expenditure on refurnishing and reequipping the taxation offices. What wa3 good enough for the State taxation offices should be good enough for the Commonwealth.

Mr HOLT:
Fawkner

.- The necessity to plan even at this early stage for the kind of world that will exist in post-war years has been referred to by other honorable members. Under my direction the Department of Labour and National Service included a planning committee.

Mr Curtin:

– It still exists.

Mr HOLT:

– I see no reference to it in the Estimates; .but, assuming that it does still function. I should like to know whether it is in a position to furnish to Parliament a report indicating the conclusions it has reached.

Sir FREDERICK STEWART:
Parramatta

– I share the inquisitiveness of the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Fadden) about the increase of £S,000 in the proposed vote for the Census and Statistics branch, and seek an explanation of it. Had it not been for the substantial increase of £6,000 in reimbursements to this branch from war services the increase would have been £14,000. I was under the impression, as, I believe, were other honorable members, that a good deal of the work of this office had been set aside owing to war conditions. For example, preparatory work in connexion with the taking of the periodical census has been entirely discontinued. Another item in which additional expenditure has been incurred relates to salaries of temporary and casual employees, the increase being about £8,000. Is it not a fact that the Commonwealth Statistician has been seconded for war work and that the services of State officers are being used temporarily? There is also an inexplicable increase from £6,000 to £10,000 under the heading “ Hire, service and maintenance of machines for tabulation of trade and other statistics “. I know that some wonderful machines are used in this branch, but a great many of them would be required, surely, to justify an expenditure of £10,000.

Mr RYAN:
Flinders

.- I deplore the fact that no provision has been made to organize work in connexion with post-war reconstruction. I agree with the honorable member for Melbourne (Mr. Calwell) and other speakers that it is unreasonable to expect Cabinet Ministers to undertake this urgent work in addition to other duties which inevitably fall upon them in times like these. I believe that a special Minister should be appointed to supervise and co-ordinate investigations of post-war reconstruction. That, of course, would involve provision for his remuneration. I also impress upon the Prime Minister the advisability of appointing a committee of experts to investigate and report upon this subject. The honorable member for Melbourne suggested that members of State parliaments and of municipal councils and other local governing bodies could be drawn upon to do this work. I cannot quite follow his contention in that respect; nevertheless, I am sure that many people in Australia who possess the requisite organizing ability would be glad to undertake duties of this description.

Mr CURTIN:
Prime Minister · Fremantle · ALP

– The greater part of the expenditure incurred in connexion with the matters mentioned by the honorable member for Melbourne (Mr. Calwell), the honorable member for Bass (Mr. Barnard), and the honorable member for Flinders (Mr. Ryan) is met from the administrative vote for the Prime Minister’s Department. It is the regular practice for expenditure in connexion with royal commissions and committees of various kinds appointed to undertake investigational work to be met from the Prime Minister’s vote, for the reason that usually matters of policy are involved in the inquiries that are ordered. Honorable gentlemen may rest assured that the post-war reconstruction work begun by the previous Government is being continued. It will be found, on examining the Estimates, that the proposed vote for the Department of Labour and National Service shows an increase of about £100,000 over the expenditure actually incurred last year. A good deal of this is required for salaries, though I do not suggest that it all has relation to social reconstruction activities. I remind honorable members also that the Tariff Board is making an investigation of secondary industries, which has some association with reconstruction. The vote to cover such expenditure is included in the amount allocated to the Department of Trade and Customs. The Joint Committee on Social Security also is inquiring into certain aspects of the subject and its expenses in that connexion are being met from the vote for the Prime Minister’s Department. The absence of a special item for “social reconstruction “ does not mean that the Government is inactive in relation to that subject. It is not intended, at this stage, to establish a Ministry of Social Reconstruction. Our first duty is to draw together the threads of the various inquiries that are being made into the issues involved, in order to ascertain exactly what needs to be done to achieve the best results. These general questions have been distributed by the Cabinet sub-committee among various Ministers for inquiry and report, but primarily I, as Prime Minister, am responsible for government policy on the subject. Until we obtain some better factual information it would be useless to develop a beautiful plan, for there would be little foundation for it.

Mr JOLLY:
Lilley

.- The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Fadden) referred to the publication of the Commonwealth Y ear-Book. I suggest to the Treasurer (Mr, Chifley) that inquiries be made as to whether it is not possible to publish a joint year-book for the Commonwealth and the States. At present each State publishes its own year-book, yet the Commonwealth Year-Book includes a great deal of the information contained in the State year-books. It appears to me that a considerable saving would be effected in man-power and material if a joint year-book were issued.

Mr ANTHONY:
Richmond

.- I ask the Treasurer whether it would be possible to make arrangements for subscriptions to war loans to be applied, in certain cases when the necessity arises, for the payment of death duties? This subject has been brought to my notice by persons who have contributed to previous loans and are anxious to contribute towards the current one. An obligation rests upon property-owners and people who possess other wealth to make provision for the payment of death duties, and I am informed that it would contribute substantially to the ability of such people to subscribe to this war loan if a provision could be included in the conditions which would make it practicable for their subscriptions to be applied, if necessary, to the payment of death duties. The absence of such a provision is retarding contributions by persons who are anxious to contribute.

It might be well to remind honorable members that the Commonwealth Statistician’s branch had full responsibility for organizing the national register recently compiled. That was an immense task.

Sir Frederick Stewart:

– I referred to the expenditure for next year.

Mr ANTHONY:

– I should imagine that the activities of the department dur ing the ensuing year or so will include a good deal of work in connexion with the rationing of commodities. To a very great degree, the volume of information obtained in relation to such rationing will depend upon the investigations that are made by this branch.

Mr BADMAN:
Grey

.- Like the honorable member for Swan (Mr. Marwick), I seek information in respect of the Taxation Department. Last year, - the total expenditure on postage, telegrams and telephone services was £23,429. The proposed expenditure for this year is £75,590, a difference of approximately £50,000. I ask the Treasurer whether that difference represents the expenditure which the Sta ti governments incurred in the offices that they occupied and which in future will be occupied by the Commonwealth?

I should further like to know whether the difference of approximately £600,000 between the totals for last year and this year represents the annual expenditure by State governments in the collection of taxes.

Will the Treasurer also State whether the extra expenditure of £500,000 in respect of salaries is additional to the amount which the State governments paid when they had the matter in their hands ?

Mr CHIFLEY:
Treasurer · Macquarie · ALP

– The honorable member for Richmond (Mr. Anthony) has urged the acceptance of bonds in payment of estate duty. So far as I can learn, this practice was previously in operation, but the privilege was withdrawn about 1934. I believed that it was still in operation until the honorable member raised the matter. I assume that there was good reason for its withdrawal.

Mr Spooner:

– The withdrawal was at the instigation of the Loan Council, and there was good reason for it.

Mr CHIFLEY:

– I shall have the matter examined.

The honorable member for Parramatta (Sir Frederick Stewart) referred to the estimated expenditure of £67,000 in respect of commission on the sale of tax instalment stamps. That commission is payable to the Postmaster-General’s Department. The reason for the increased appropriation is the ever-increasing number of stamps sold.

The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Fadden), and another honorable member, drew attention to the proposed expenditure in the Census and Statistics Division. The work of this branch in connexion with various war activities has appreciably increased. To enable it to cope with the additional labour involved, a number of machines were ordered and delivered last year, but the vouchers were not presented for payment until this year. A further reason for the increase is the payment of increments and cost of living adjustments.

The honorable member for Parramatta cited the case of a seed merchant who had advertised his own goods in a text book of his own production. I believe that the honorable member corresponded with the department in relation to this matter some time ago. I do not pretend to have examined the legal position in connexion with the imposition of sales tax; but I am assured that the interpretation placed upon the act as it stands is that there was no escape from payment of sales tax on a pamphlet of this kind, which contained advertising matter. The subject was investigated by the Taxation Department when the honorable member communicated with it; but I shall have it further examined.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Attorney-General’s Department.

Proposed vote, £295,800.

Mr SPENDER:
Warringah

.- I direct the attention of the committee to a matter that arose out of an investigation by the Attorney-General (Dr. Evatt) upon his return from England on the 2nd July of this year. It will be recollected that a dispute arose with respect to certain newspapermen being questioned as to the source of certain information they had obtained of a conference with the press convened by General Sir Thomas Blarney. The statement issued by the Attorney-General reads -

The facts of thiscase are these -

On the 14th June, 1942. the Sunday Sun (Sydney) published an article from its special correspondent at Canberra stating that invitations had been issued to newspaper representatives by the Director-General of Army

Public Relations (Mr. E.G. Knox) to attend a press conference at Melbourne at which General Sir Thomas Blarney would discuss matters of army morale. The article also stated that the Minister for Information (Senator Ashley) had not been invited, and that this might lead to inter-departmental feeling between the Department of Information and the Army Public Relations Office.

The right honorable gentleman went on to recite certain facts. He interviewed a roundsman of the Sunday Sun, sent for certain papers, and discussed the matter with Lieutenant-Colonel Wake. He arrived at the following conclusion: -

The papers show that the Minister for the Army (Mr. Forde), who was acting during my absence as Minister responsible for security matters, was not consulted and gave no instructions. On this particular occasion, therefore, the great powers vested insecurity officers were used unreasonably and capriciously. The article objected to contained onlya mild criticism. But the certificate that the production of the press telegram was required in the interests of justice was inaccurate because, so far as I can see, it was never suggested from the first to last that any criminal offence had been committed.

Then the right honorable gentleman went on to say that in future steps would be taken to ensure that similar requests for information would be acceded to only when they affected matters of security. The background to this matter is that the Department of Public Relations, which was established within the Army, was not regarded in too friendly a light by the Department of Information. The Minister made an investigation which, he will agree, was ex parte. So far as I have been able to learn, he did not make any inquiries from the Secretary of the Army, or from Mr. Knox. I now ask him whether it is not a fact that the real trouble was, not so much that a newspaper reporter, in the course ofhis duties obtained certain information, but that a document marked “ Secret and confidential “ found its way without authority to another department. He will agree, I am sure, that there is reason for concern that this should have happened. I am not questioning his finding regarding the issue between the newspaperman and the detectives - I agree with the Minister’s view on that matter - but I ask him whether the facts are not as I have indicated. If so, it is a matter of prime concern, and I should want to know why no action has been taken against the man who, without authority, saw the document and, without authority, revealed it to a person in another department for the purpose of supporting the Department of Information.

Mr HARRISON:
Wentworth

– I am concerned with the fact that expenditure is increasing in several of the departments, other than war departments. The Estimates for four .of the five departments which have so far been considered show increased expenditure of more than £500,000 as compared with last year, and they are minor war departments. This has been called an austerity budget, and I suggest that a good deal of money could be saved by paring expenditure within the departments. Quite obviously, that lias not been done. In the Crown Solicitor’s Office, for instance, there has been an increase of £18,000 over last year’s expenditure. I do not think that increases of that kind can be justified at a time like this.

Dr Evatt:

– This department is concerned with the enforcement of all Commonwealth laws and regulations. There has been an enormous increase of the number of prosecutions and investigations due solely to the war.

Mr HARRISON:

– I am not selecting the Attorney-General’s Department in particular; there have been increases of expenditure in other departments, also. However, in the Attorney-General’s Department there is an increase of about £6,000 for the Commonwealth Court of Conciliation and Arbitration. It has been pointed out in the course of discussion in this chamber that the functions of the Arbitration Court are being assumed by Ministers of the Crown. They are making some of the decisions which the court should have made; they are putting aside the awards of the court in some instances, and in others are placing their own interpretation upon awards. They are ignoring the rulings of the court upon such matters as preference to unionists, and yet the vote for the court is £6,000 more than the expenditure last year. Is this to be regarded as an indication that Ministers have at last seen the error of their ways, and from now on are prepared to allow the court to do its own proper work? If so, I do not begrudge the expenditure of this additional £6,000. However, if Ministers propose to continue to usurp the powers of the court, I cannot see any reason for the increased expenditure.

Mr MARWICK:
Swan

Proposed Vote, £542,600.

Mr HARRISON:
WENTWORTH, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP; LP from 1944

– I ask the Minister representing the Minister for the Interior (Mr. Lazzarini) to explain several items in which increases of expenditure are proposed. We have been told again and again, in connexion with the austerity campaign, that petrol, rubber and man-power must be conserved in every possible way; yet, under the heading “ Motor vehicles - purchase, upkeep and hire, including use of private vehicles for departmental purposes “, we find that the vote of £18,500 last year was exceeded by more than £6,000 and that the proposed vote for this year is about £6,000 in excess of the actual expenditure last year. The estimate of last year is thus expected to be exceeded by over £12,000 this yea.r. How can this be justified in the circumstances in which we find ourselves? No doubt we shall be told that producer-gas units are being used, hut that does not obviate the extra use of tyres. No amount was placed on last year’s Estimates for “ Minor transport services for other departments “, for which an amount of £3,500 appears on this year’s

Estimates. This item also demands ex- 1 plana tion.

The proposed vote for the Electoral Branch is £138,000, which is more than £21,000 in excess of the actual expenditure incurred last year. What does this large increase imply? Does the Government contemplate reprinting the electoral rolls for the purpose of an election during the year? I admit that if, as the result of an election, the present Administration be superseded it would be a welljustified expenditure; but we have no information concerning the Government’s intentions. Has this proposed vote anything to do with the Government’s projected referendum on constitutional issues ?

Another item of increase which seems to be symptomatic of this budget relates to the employment of temporary and casual labour in all government departments; take, for example, the Commonwealth Solar Observatory. Is any war work being done at the observatory which would justify an increase of the vote under this item ? I can understand that increases might occur, in certain instances, in the expenditure on salaries and allowances for permanent officers, for statutory increments have to be paid ; but I cannot understand why there should be an increase of the vote for temporary and casual employees. Surely departments not engaged on war service must be reducing their administrative activities?

Mr Lazzarini:

– Does the honorable member suggest that war work is not being done in the Department of the Interior?

Mr HARRISON:

– I do not; I am dealing specifically with the proposed vote for the Solar Observatory. Speaking in general terms, it would appear, from a detailed examination of the Estimates, that this is far from an austerity budget. At any rate, we are fully justified in calling upon Ministers to explain increases of expenditure such as those to which I have specifically referred.

Mr ANTHONY:
Richmond

.- I direct attention to certain matters in relation to the activities of the Allied Works Council, involving, not so much

– Expenditure must be incurred this year in preparation for the general election next year. The roll? cannot bc printed between June and August. The main rolls will be printed most likely in February or March next; only the supplementary rolls will be printed after the end of the financial year. That is the explanation of the very small increase of expenditure by this greatly expanded department which is doing a very fine job.

Mr MULCAHY:
Lang

– When I heard so much criticism in relation to a trivial motor car ride from the Hotel Kurrajong to Parliament House I was reminded of the last general elections and the last Government. I recollect how a .member of the previous Government took a motor car from Melbourne in order to carry on his election eering campaign throughout Queensland. That happened at a time when stocks of motor fuel in Australia were so low that we had scarcely enough to carry us on for a month. Furthermore, there were very few gas-producers in the country at that time. I do not complain about Ministers travelling from their hotels to their offices in motor cars. Their time is too valuable to be wasted in slow travel, and therefore they should not waste even one minute in travelling by any slower means than a motor car or aeroplane.

I had occasion last night to visit the Canberra Community Hospital as the result of the tragic death of the child of an officer of a Commonwealth department. Local doctors who attended the child were assisted by some of the medical officers of the United States Army, which has taken over the new hospital building at Acton. In conversation with some of these doctors I was informed that the Government is about to expend £30^000 or £40,000 on improvements to the old hospital building. I was told also that that building was much more suited to the needs of the military forces than the new building. An American major said to me, “ I do not know why they gave us the new hospital. That should be used for the people. We should have the use of the old building, which is more suited to our purposes than the new one “. I should like the Government to consider this matter with a view to effecting a change before it incurs this large expenditure on the old building.

Mr Jolly:

– Would that save the £40,000?

Mr MULCAHY:

– I believe that it would do so; at any rate, it would save a considerable sum. Some of the modern equipment in the new building is designed for obstetric work, and therefore is of no use to the military forces. I hope that serious consideration will be given to my proposal to make the old hospital available to the United States Army in place of the new building.

Mr JOLLY:
Lilley

.- The

Department of the Interior controls certain trading concerns in Canberra. Parliament should have presented to it each year statements showing the financial results of the operation of these concerns. I have in mind particularly the city omnibus service, the Canberra abattoirs, and the hotels under the control of the department. The accounts which are presented to Parliament contain no information about the operations of these undertakings. Some time ago, in order to obtain certain information for the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Public Works, I sought details of the accounts of the Canberra abattoirs. I was obliged to compile a profit and loss account for the undertaking. I also made inquiries about the omnibus service and was presented with a statement which indicated that the service had made a profit. However, an analysis showed that the apparent profit was due to the fact that proceeds of the operations of government motor cars, for which charges are made, had been credited to the omnibus service. If this had not been done, the statement would have shown a loss on the bus service. This is merely a matter -of administration, and I hope that annual statements setting out the results of the operations of these trading concerns will be submitted to Parliament.

Mr ABBOTT:
New England

– I draw attention to two matters affecting the Department of the Interior. The first concerns delay in making payments to small country shopkeepers for material taken from them on orders by departmental officers and for work done by tradesmen. I am continually receiving complaints from constituents about inordinate delays in such matters, and I believe that my experience is no different from that of other honorable members.

Mr Lazzarini:

– Do these payments relate to contracts?

Mr ABBOTT:

– Sometimes, but I am referring to the seizure of goods and the employment of tradesmen, such as plumbers and tinsmiths. The delays often extend for months. I recollect a case in which a country tinsmith had £680 owing to him by the Department of the Interior. Similar delays occur in the Department of the Army. In fact, the trouble seems to be prevalent in all Government departments. Whilst I realize that the rapid expansion of various departments has increased administrative difficulties and caused delay in settling accounts it is time that those vigorous Ministers, including the Minister for the Interior (Senator Collings), whom the honorable member for Dalley (Mr. Rosevear) praised so lavishly, took action to expedite payments.

Last night the honorable member for Dalley bitterly attacked the Allied Works Council. In fact, he has never ceased to assail and vent his spleen upon it since the present Government created it. On a previous occasion I was amazed to hear the Minister for Labour and National Service (Mr. Ward) attack the organization so fiercely that the Prime Minister wa3 obliged to rise and defend it. The astonishing feature is that last evening Ministers sat in a silence deeper than the silence of Dean Maitland, while this shattering and devastating criticism was hurled at the organization.

Mr Morgan:

– The Minister for the Interior defended it in the Senate.

Mr ABBOTT:

– I expected that a Minister would defend it in this chamber.

Mr Drakeford:

– The Prime Minister defended it.

Mr ABBOTT:

– His was a lone voice in a wilderness of silence. The Minister for Air (Mr. Drakeford) and the mortar-board Minister for War Organization of Industry (Mr. Dedman) sat in profound silence. Perhaps the actions of the Allied Works Council call for some criticism. Any organization so hastily created as it was, and working at feverish pace, will undoubtedly make some mistakes. But no Minister saw fit to mention that, in a few months, the Allied Works Council has constructed in northern Queensland aerodromes which played no mean part in the defeat of the Japanese in the battle of the Coral Sea, and it has strengthened the two “ Burma roads “ of Australia, thus enabling our forces to exist in the Northern. Territory. I was shocked to hear the organization trounced while Ministers made no effort to defend it, and listened in humble silence to the atrocious statements directed against it.

Mr BARNARD:
Bass

.- I support the remarks of the honorable member for New England (Mr. Abbott) regarding departmental delays in settling accounts with small business concerns. As the result of the rapid expansion of departments, a bottle-neck appears to have been created, and this is responsible for unfortunate delays. The fault is not confined to the Department of the Interior, and I hope that prompt action will be taken by the Government so that honorable members will have no cause for further complaint.

The increase of the vote for the Department of the Interior is not astonishing, as it undertakes a good deal of constructional work for the Government. In wartime, some waste is inevitable. Undoubtedly in the more leisurely days of peace, some of that waste would not occur. Another factor responsible for it is the constantly changing war situation. A project started to-day may be altered two weeks hence, or it becomes obsolete.

I regret that some honorable members have indulged in cheap criticism of expenditure incurred by Ministers in and around Parliament House. That criticism may be levelled against any government at any time. Without referring to specific cases, I have noticed that the use of motor cars has been considerably restricted since the Labour Government took office.. Some time ago I complained privately to Ministers about, the excessive use of motor cars, and I am gratified to see that the position has improved. The action of the honorable member for Swan (Mr. Marwick) in repeating a private conversation with a Minister is simply not done between gentlemen.

– It was addressed to him. Honorable members can establish that by reference to the letter, which, 1 understand, was tabled. The article to which I refer states -

page 709

QUESTION

A BIG JOB WELL DONE

We published yesterday the last of a series of articles on what the Allied Works Council has done and is doing to make Australia a base for war. A curtain of censorship, of which still only a corner oan be lifted, has hidden from public gaze the vast constructional operations which the council, under the dynamic leadership of Mr. Theodore, has been directing since its formation little more than six months ago. What has now been revealed must stimulate the imagination and stir the pride of Australians, and arouse in them, too, a lively sense of gratitude to the men whose brains and labour have wrought so much in so brief a space of time. There are blemishes on the picture, no doubt, but they are of small account compared with the immensity of the Works Council’s achievement. Time has pressed, violently, from the start. A great organization has had to be brought into being at breakneck speed, and this in a country which is not accustomed to hustle. Orthodox methods have had to be discarded, and prejudices ignored. The marvel is not that mistakes have been made, or that individual hardships have occurred, but that so many difficulties, which in peace-time would have been deemed insuperable, have been overcome.

Senator Collings last week gave an impressive list of the projects which the Works Council had undertaken, and. with a courage which did him credit as a Minister, defended it against the unfair criticism to which it has been subjected. It is not right, as he said, that an organization whose work is so vital to the safety of Australia should be sniped at by interested parties. This is not to say, of course, tha,t attention should not be directed to remediable defects, especially on the man-power side. There would seem to have been undue emphasis upon quantity at the expense of quality in the supply of labour, and a failure to apply adequate medical tests to men called upon for arduous work under relatively primitive conditions in the construction camps. Experience is curing these deficiencies, and they should not be allowed to detract from a “magnificent performance. Engineers, foremen, and an army of workmen have toiled ung.rudin.gly to provide the fighting services with the facilities urgently needed in the conduct of the war, and Australia owes much of its increased security to them.

Mr BARNARD:

– I would sooner hand anything to the Minister for Labour and National Service than to the honorable member for Richmond, because, whereas I am confident that the Minister would make an excellent job of whatever I asked him to do, I could not trust the honorable member to make anything but a mess of whatever he tried to do. Honorable members of the Opposition have launched attacks against the Allied Works Council, in spite of its wonderful achievements in the short space of time that has elapsed since its establishment.

Mr MARWICK:
Swan

.- It is a pity that the Minister for Home Security (Mr. Lazzarini) did not offer to the Assistant Minister for the Army (Senator Fraser) the explanation of his ordering a special motor car that he has given to the committee to-day. It would have been accepted by all. So far as I am concerned the incident is closed.

Mr BLACKBURN:
Bourke

The first criticism of the Allied Works Council came from the Opposition when its members thought that they could hold the Minister for Labour and National Service (Mr. Ward) responsible for what the council was doing. Attacks were frequently made upon the council because honorable members opposite thought that they were indirectly attacking the Minister for Labour and National Service. It is quite clear, however, that that Minister has no responsibility in the matter at all. The Director-General of Allied Works is an exceptional official. Most, directors-general appointed by the Commonwealth Government have to administer the regulations, subject to ministerial direction, but the DirectorGeneral of Allied Works is entirely independent of ministerial control. He has such powers and functions as are specified in the regulations, and he is not bound to accept directions from the Minister, and is, therefore, not subject to ministerial control. If he were, he would be subject to the control of the Minister for the Interior. The only point at which he makes contact with the Minister for Labour and National Service is in the call-up of labour. He is not allowed to call up persons employed in protected industries or protected undertakings. Whether a person is or isnot so employed is a question which can be answered only by the Director-General of Man Power, who, subject to the control of the Minister for Labour and National Service, administers the manpower regulations.

Mr McEwen:

– Surely the DirectorGeneral of Allied Works would exercise authority in accordance with government policy?

Mr BLACKBURN:

– Only so far as the policy is expressed in the regulations. I do not wish .to deny the value of work which I understand that the Allied Works Council is doing, but I believe that that work is being carried out at. great cost of human suffering and loss of civil morale.

Mr Rosevear:

– And public money.

Mr BLACKBURN:

– Yes, but I am not particularly concerned about that aspect. Young men sit behind officecounters and desks and dispose of the fate of men sometimes old enough to betheir fathers. Men between 55 and 59 years of age are dealt with by comparatively young men who look them over, take a few records and say, “You start to-morrow “. Men have told me that after a short interview they have been directed to start on the next day digging roads at the Sale aerodrome. Any one who knows Gippsland in July would know what a trial that would be for elderly men. I have written to the department concerning several cases, but not concerning thespecific case to which I shall now refer.. An elderly man, 56 years of age, was told that he- had to begin work at Sale the day after his call-up and that his employment would be on the roads of an. aerodrome. He said, “I am not going. The Allied Works Council m.a.y put me in gaol if you like.. That will probably be as cold as Gippsland, but it will undoubtedly be drier and healthier. I have never done hard- work of this description in my life. I have followed a sedentary occupation and have engaged only in technical work at my trade “. In conversation with me the man said, “ I ask you : What worse could happen to a mau. like me if Hitler came to this country?”. I had no answer to give him. I cannot conceive of anything worse for such a man than for him to be taken from his home at a moment’s notice and from a comparatively quiet and sedentary life, and sent to Gippsland, in midwinter, to work on roads at an aerodrome.

Other similar cases have been brought to my notice. When the department has been approached on the subject, officers have said : “ We have persons of this class to deal with, and what are we to do with them ? Many men in the 45 to 59 age group have lived sedentary lives and have never done hard work; but we have this class of work to be done and under the regulations, the men are handed over to us “. Another person came to me with a complaint concerning his call-up. I heard his story, and then asked him to approach his own member on the subject. Eis story, which I believe to be true, was that he was 56 years of age and had spent his lifetime in developing a small business upon which the livelihood of himself and his family depended. When he expostulated, with the representative of the Allied Works Council about the work which he was directed to do he said that this man, a young man, came from behind a counter, seized him by the collar, and said : “ What fellows like you have to remember is that you have nothing in the world except the clothes you stand up in “. I cannot conceive of anything so calculated to destroy the morale of the people as that kind of thing. Elderly people should not be conscripted in this manner. If they are to be conscripted at all. for industrial purposes their cases should be considered by men of mature age and experience. The Allied Works Council is probably an efficient- body, but its efficiency has been achieved at the expense of much human anxiety and suffering, and considerable demoralization of the civil population.

Sir CHARLES MARR:
Parkes

. - I wish to make a few remarks about the Allied Works Council. Probably that body has done an excellent job. It is undeniable that throughout the Commonwealth, and particularly in our northern areas, essential public works of great value to the nation have been completed by the Allied Works Council. I refer to roads, aerodromes and the like. No doubt the Allied Works Council has made mistakes. A body that never makes a mistake never makes anything. I am prepared to concede that the council has done splendid work, but that shall not restrain me from offering some criticism of its practices. In doing se, I shall not be attempting to deny to the council the kudos which it deserves. When the members of the present Government were in Opposition they bitterly opposed all proposals for the conscription of man-power for war services. The Labour party, as such, is opposed to industrial conscription; yet the man-power call-up has resulted in the worst form of industrial conscription being applied to certain sections of our people, particularly in the Civil Constructional Corps. I have in mind the case of a man who was seen by a Man Power officer while he was building a rough shed in his orchard. The officer went to him and remarked : “ You are a carpenter.” The man said : “ This is the first time I have ever been called a carpenter.” The officer replied : “ At any rate, you can drive nails. Therefore, you are called up for the Civil Constructional Corps and must report for duty next Tuesday morning.” That man was 55 years of age and he had never done anything except orchard work. He was classified as a carpenter and told that he must leave at once for Queensland. The man said: “ I am not going to Queensland.” The officer replied : “ If you do not go willingly, we shall put you into uniform and pay you 6s. a day and send you where we please.” Industrial conscription of this nature is abhorrent to the people of Australia. Although we may shut our ears to complaints that are being made about the administration of these regulations, the fact remains that the worst form of conscription that has ever been applied to this country is at present in operation.

– I shall produce the names, if necessary. There is too much dodging of responsibility. Today young lads are employed as messengers of Ministers when they ought to be performing a more important duty. During the regime of the last Government, I endeavoured to have appointed to the positions of messengers, disabled, returned soldiers who, having been discharged, were walking the streets looking for work, and could not obtain even their deferred pay. I make that suggestion to the present Government. I support the statement of the honorable member for New England (Mr. Abbott), that all the departments have their finances tied up so that delays occur in the payment of accounts. One of my lads had been overseas for twelve months before he could obtain pay that was due to him prior to his embarkation. When, on the 26th May, I telephoned the service department concerned to ask why payment had not been made, I was informed that it had been made. I requested the production of the files, and these disclosed that payment had been made on the previous day; the approval had been antedated.

The Prime Minister has made some extraordinarily good speeches. The honorable member for Bass (Mr. Barnard) produced an article in which the Government had been eulogized on account of the achievements of the Allied Works Council. If we must criticize, let our criticism be at least constructive. I have heard in this chamber altogether too much destructive criticism of men who have not the right to reply to it. Never in my political life have I mentioned the name of an officer who had not the right to reply to my statements. All the amateur strategists, in Parliament and out of it, believe that they can teach the soldiers who are leading our armies today under trying conditions, how to win battles. I have heard criticism with which I have totally” disagreed, and it has been most destructive in relation to the men who are organizing and fighting the war for the protection of this country. That is the worst form of criticism, and it has the greatest effect in reducing the morale not only of the troops but also of the civilians. I am not singling out members of either side of the chamber. I denounce all destructive criticism, wherever it may originate. The Allied Works Council has done an amazing job. If in some particulars it does wrong any honorable member may criticize it in a decent fashion. It would seem that in our public life we look for bad points rather than good ones. Nobody can accuse me of being a political friend of the Director-General of Allied Works; yet I admit that he has done an extraordinarily good job and has established an organization which redounds to his credit. I say that, not in the hope of helping him politically, but because he is justly” entitled to praise by either his critics or those who are in authority over him. My experience has taught me that the most severe critics in regard to the use of official motor cars would make the most use of them had they the opportunity to do so. In other years, I have had occasion to find fault with the use of official cars. Not always are Ministers responsible. When I was a Minister for some years, on my visits to Melbourne I found that a oar in a government garage was not available to take a Minister to wherever he was staying; yet several cars could always be made available to meet officials of departments at the railway station. Consequently, I am not criticizing Ministers. I suggest that departmental expenditure on the use of cars ought to be watched, apart altogether from the use to which they are put by Ministers. If there be items in the Estimates that provoke discussion, let us seek information and have any wrong rectified, if possible. Querulous questioning merely for the purpose of smashing something will not help the war effort. I apply to members of Parliament the criticism I have offered in respect of certain departmental officers who have not accepted their responsibilities in connexion with war service. Neither State nor Federal members of Parliament have a greater right to exemption from war service than has the man in the street. All of us should accept our responsibilities, and use our abilities to the best advantage. Criticism of the Allied Works Council may be justified in many instances; even so, let us endeavour to help it, because it has been carrying out a great job of work.

Mr CALWELL:
Melbourne

.- The trouble in connexion with the Allied Works Council originated with the honorable member for Richmond (Mr. Anthony), who sought to pillory the Minister for Labour and National Service (Mr. Ward) because he believed that the officers of that gentleman’s department were making the call-ups and were deciding the fate of men who eventually came under the control of the DirectorGeneral of Allied Works. In response to questions, and to statements contained in questions, asked by the honorable member, the Minister prepared a statement which he read to this chamber. It was competent for the honorable member, had he so desired, to persuade his party to permit him to move the adjournment of the House on the following day in order to discuss the matter.

Mr Anthony:

Mr McEWEN:
Indi

.- Honorable members must concede that theAllied Works Council, judged by results, has been effective. With considerableexpedition, it has completed important works and achieved valuable results. It is interesting to note that those results have been obtained by the ruthless use of the authority which reposes in theDi rector-General of Allied Works and his associates. Ruthlessness is a quality essential to the successful prosecution of the war. But the ruthlessexercise of this authority has been madepossible because the Government recognized the necessity to introduce industrial conscription. That was a most important and far-reaching decision for a Labour government to make. I offer no criticism: of it, and the Government deserves credit for adopting the policy so as to enable the works to be completed expeditiously.

I am gratified that the Government did not feel circumscribed by the almost innumerable declarations that Ministers made against industrial conscription when they occupied the opposition benches. The interesting lesson to be learned from the adoption of this policy is that in planning for total war, the private rights, sectional interests, and all pre-conceived ideas about the liberty of the subject must be subordinated to the needs of the nation.

Mr Brennan:

– I wish that the honorable member meant it, so far as contractors are concerned.

Mr McEWEN:
INDI, VICTORIA · CP; LCL from 1940; CP from 1943

– The honorable member for Batman may feel disposed to enlarge upon that interjection later; but I remind him that the Director-General of Allied “Works has the same authority to deal with contractors as with workers.

The fact that these valuable results have been achieved only by the ruthless introduction of industrial conscription shows that honorable members opposite have adjusted their beliefs to stern realities. That statement applies to other policies that the Government has adopted or inherited, such as the total registration of man-power. In due course, the Government may order the total registration of woman-power. No limits must be placed upon those in .authority for preparing the country for total war.

But conceding the necessity for this policy in broad terms, I consider that an effort should be made to minimize the hardship and suffering which are almost inevitably associated with the operation of such a policy. The honorable member for Bourke (Mr. Blackburn) declared that the price which has been paid for the rapid completion of these great works is the infliction of hardship on individuals. I do not say that the test which should be applied to any war-time policy is whether it will bear onerously on, or cause injustice to, individuals. War is the greatest cause of injustice, and some individuals must experience minor injustices so that the war may be brought to a speedier conclusion. But there is greater scope for the exercise of ministerial authority. The honorable member for Bourke considered’ that the’ Minister has yielded all his authority. If that be correct, the Minister should take action to recover some of his authority and exercise ministerial direction and influence for the purpose of minimizing individual hardship.

Mr Anthony:

– Which Minister ?

Mr McEWEN:
INDI, VICTORIA · CP; LCL from 1940; CP from 1943

– The Minister for the Interior, although I recognize that it is difficult to draw a clear line of demarcation, because the Allied Works Council must also invoke the records of the Department of Labour and National Service in the call-up of men. Most honorable members have had brought to- their notice cases of -great and aggravated hardship on account of the shortness of time between the date of call-up and the date on which work must be commenced with the Civil Constructional Corps. Urgent as the works are, I believe that there could be a longer interval between the two dates. Mistakes and muddling are inevitable in an organization of such magnitude as the Allied. Works Council, but there again scope exists for close ministerial scrutiny. The Government cannot escape responsibility on the plea that the regulations give all the authority to the DirectorGeneral of Allied Works. Australia is a democracy and no Minister should divest himself of his supervisory powers.

Mr Blackburn:

– The Government makes the regulations.

Mr McEWEN:

– Yes, and any shortcomings can be remedied by a stroke of the pen. Amongst, the many cases of muddling which I have had brought to my notice, the classic example is that of a clerk of works on a country sewerage scheme. Ever since his return from the last war this man has been employed by either large contracting companies or government instrumentalities on sewerage undertakings as a worker, ganger, foreman and, finally, supervisor. He became clerk of works on a new sewerage undertaking in a town of considerable size. Half the town had been sewered when the work was closed down by the Government in pursuance of it3 policy to divert men and materials to essential war requirements. This man found himself out of a job. Owing to government regulations he was not free to find another job for himself. He was compelled to present himself at the Department of Labour and National Service, which he did with his record and references. These I have seen. His ease was considered by the pundits of the department and then they said “ Can you start on Monday or Tuesday morning?” He said that he could. They told him to present himself at a certain Melbourne cake shop and to start work there as a clerk. I do not point the finger at the Minister for Labour and National Service and say that he is responsible. 1 have had experience of administering big departments, and I realize that Ministers cannot be expected to carry the responsibility for every mistake made. I cited that instance, and I could quote other instances, in support of the honorable member for Bourke (Mr. Blackburn), who has pointed out that the regulations deprive the Munster for the Interior of all authority over the activities of the Allied Works Council and repose absolute authority in the Director-General. That, carries the principle of delegating authority too far, and I urge the Government to reconsider the matter and to ensure that no Minister shall strip himself of all authority in respect of major governmental undertakings.

AVe have all from time to time criticized delayed decisions, but in recent months I have seen some examples of promptness in decisions being carried to extremes. I shall not mention individual works; Ministers know what they are. The Allied Works Council has been instructed at extremely short notice to embark on major undertakings, the costs of which range from hundreds of thousands of pounds to more than £1,000,000. Men have been conscripted from their civil employment and materials have been diverted from normal urgent civilian works, fabricated, and taken to the site. The work has proceeded almost to the point of completion when some military authority, not always an Australian, has said “I am sorry, we have changed our plans now and this work is no longer required”.

Mr Johnson:

– That could easily happen in existing circumstances.

Mir. McEWEN. - Not only can it easily happen, but it is happening with extraordinary frequency.

Mr JOHNSON:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP

– The honorable member may remember the case of the Southern Cross aerodrome.

Mr McEWEN:

– The honorable member’s interjection gives point to my remarks. A site was selected for an aerodrome at Southern Cross. The estimated cost of the work was £250,000. It was discovered, when about £12,000 had been expended, that a mistake had been made, in the selection of the site and, without a moment’s delay, the mistake was acknowledged and the work terminated. My criticism is not directed at mistakes being made or being acknowledged, but at the fact that major works are undertaken and carried almost to completion before it is decided to abandon or, at least, not to use them. I hope that these remarks will be brought to the personal notice of the. Minister for the Interior.

– So far as security considerations permitted, I gave the reason for the abandonment of the works.

Mr JOHNSON:

– A good deal of criticism has been voiced in regard to the use of official motor cars. The matter is too petty to occupy the time of this chamber while Australia is in its present position. I am acquainted with the programme of works that is to be carried out in Western Australia under the direction of the Allied Works Council, but it is yet too early for me to say whether that body is doing a good job or a bad job, because those works had not been commenced prior to my departure from the State. However, from speeches that have been made by the Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin) and other members in this chamber, I believe that the council is doing a good job. It should have the utmost cooperation from this Parliament. I favour the giving of a fair trial to the Director General. Because of his experience and administrative capacity, I believe that he will discharge his functions satisfactorily. I understand that the work he has already accomplished has been well administered.

I have a complaint to make in regard to hirings in my electorate, particularly at Kalgoorlie, where a large number of workers’ homes has been impressed in order to make room for certain works. For the last four months, the owners have not been able to obtain any satisfaction. The matter has been discussed before the War Expenditure Committee. It was informed that special tribunals had been appointed in each State to expedite decisions in connexion with the impressment of any land or home. I hope that the committee will function quickly, and will give greater satisfaction than has so far been given. Because of developments, decisions that are made to-day in connexion with our war effort may have to be altered to-morrow, and the reason for the alteration cannot always be explained to the satisfaction of the public. The War Expenditure Committee has had before it much evidence in regard to the huge expenditure incurred on different works, and has found that decisions had had to be altered because of certain developments a month or six weeks after they had been made. Errors will continue to be made until the defence preparations of Australia have been completed and are up to the standard required by the nation. I trust that honorable members will recognize the position in which we are placed, and in view of the unprecedented circumstances will offer constructive instead of destructive criticism.

Mr BRENNAN:
Batman

.-I hope that I am capable of recognizing as fully as, for example, the honorable member for Kalgoorlie (Mr. Johnson) - who has just spoken - the responsibility of the Government, as well as of the ordinary citizen who is not charged with the duty of government. I also hope that I appreciate not less than others the colossal task involved in government, and realize that the Administration is entitled to expect co-operation, in addition to helpful advice and action, by ordinary citizens.

Having said so much, I feel bound to utter a word of criticism in regard to the methods employed by the Allied Works Council, in connexion with the ordinary citizen who comes under its command for employment wherever in Australia it considers his services can best be employed. In this matter of the impressment of labour, I regret very much to see employed the mode of approach and dictatorial methods of the Army. Unlike the honorable member for Indi (Mr. McEwen), I do not either welcome or approve of the principle of industrial conscription. I am, and always have been, opposed to it, but I agree that every body is expected to do what he reasonably can in this emergency. Several cases have come under my notice of men who have been required at short notice to proceed to points far distant from their homes in order that they may work in avocations in which they are entirely untrained, and for which they are completely unsuited. I have in mind one man who is the father of five children, all of them under sixteen years of age, and he has been required to proceed, not to a distant part of Victoria, the State in which he lives, but to Queensland, there to engage in manual labour. I know another man, 53 years of age, whose lot it has been not to engage in manual labour up to the present time. He has made his living by other means, perfectly honorable means, which would not shock even the most punctilious of us; yet, at his time of life, he has been required to engage in hard manual labour. It is not that I object to manual labour, but members may notice that they themselves rather get out of the way of doing hard manual work when they become members of this House. It may be the atmosphere; it may be the nature of the accommodation ; it may be the inspiring association with members of the Public Service who themselves do not engage in hard manual labour; or it may be that they are influenced by a benevolent press whose representatives manage to eke out an existence without engaging in hard manual labour. Whatever the reason, the fact is that there are many decent people in the world, and notably in Australia, who have not been trained in manual labour, and are unfitted for such work. Here was a man of that kind who was put to pick and shovel work. Well, of course, that would be all right for some of us. I can do it, because I was trained in it; it comes natural to me, but a good many people have not been so trained, and have not the physical constitutions to enable them to stand up to it. To require a man of 53 years of age, who has never done manual labour, to take off his coat and do pick-and-shovel work, is both unkind and uneconomic. He cannot be expected to do the work efficiently, or to earn the prescribed rate of pay. It is wrong to take such a man away from his family and put him into camp for such a purpose. I understand that men called up by the Allied Works Council are paid the award rate of wages prescribed for the class of work upon which they are engaged in the State and district to which they are sent. At first sight that seems to be reasonable, but actually it is not so-, because some of the men have been in receipt of higher incomes, and have established a mode of life, and entered into obligations, appropriate to their income. Then they suddenly find their incomes cut, it may be, in half. I can understand that workers may be needed in Queensland more than in the southern States for some classes of work. I can understand that Queensland might not have the population to satisfy the demand, but surely, if movements of population must take place - and it is reasonable that they should in certain circumstances - there is no justification for taking married men with young families from the southern

.- The honorable member for Indi (Mr. McEwen) asked a most important question, and the Minister for Home Security (Mr. Lazzarini) has not answered it satisfactorily. Last week the Prime Minister (Mr, Curtin) said that the Allied Works Council had compulsorily drafted men to Queensland from the States in which they are domiciled. The Queensland award provides that men who are doing the class of work undertaken by the Civil Constructional Corps must belong to a union. The right honorable gentleman indicated that the policy of the Government was to adhere to the awards operating in the States in which the men worked, and he added that, subject to the discretion of the DirectorGeneral of Allied Works to determine whether or not a man had sincere and conscientious objections to joining a union, all men drafted to the Civil Con.structional Corps in Queensland must join a union. Of course, the Commonwealth Government has plenary -powers to determine whether those men shall be compelled to abide by a ruling that is abhorrent or obnoxious to them. Consequently, the Government will not evade the issue by contending that the matter in dispute comes within’ the purview of the Queensland award, because it has the power to overrule the award. I can only assume that while the Government permits the situation to continue, it endorses the view that these men shall be compelled, against their wishes, to join a union and subscribe to the political activities of the Labour party.

Mr MARTENS:
Herbert

.- The speeches of the honorable member for Indi (Mr. McEwen) and the honorable member for Fawkner (Mr. Holt) would be almost amusing if the position were not so serious. If the Commonwealth Government were to interfere with wages boards or Arbitration Court awards in Victoria, where preference has not been granted to unionists, those honorable members would bitterly assail the Government for overriding the State law. For many years the Arbitration Count of Queensland has granted preference to unionists, and no difficulties have arisen. In the industrial organization which I represented before I entered this Parliament, many of the unionists were Victorians.

Mi-. Holt. - This is a case, not of preference, but of compulsion.

Mr MARTENS:

– That is rubbish! The award provides that men engaged upon the class of work undertaken by the Civil Constructional Corps shall be members of an industrial organization. Experience of men from all States has convinced me that only those who wish to dodge the issue all the time object to joining a union. Apparently some honorable members opposite will not be satisfied until the war reaches this part of the continent, and it will be no longer necessary to draft men to Queensland domiciled in Victoria and New South Wales.

The policy of the Labour movement has always included preference to unionists, but the Arbitration Court of Queensland, of its own volition, has provided that workers in that .State shall belong to a union. The Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin) stated plainly that the Government would not interfere with the conditions prescribed by the awards of any State in which the ‘Civil Constructional Corps is operating. The number of conscientious objectors is so few that they will not make any noise. The only noise will be that made by those honorable members opposite who allege that they represent the conscientious objectors to trade unionism.

Mr LAZZARINI:
Minister for Home Security · Werriwa · ALP

.- The honorable member for Indi (Mr. McEwen) seems to have been offended or disturbed because the Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin) did not answer his question as the honorable member wished it to be answered. For my part, the answer that the Prime Minister gave stands. If the honorable member desires additional information on the subject, he should address a further question to the Prime Minister.

Mr ANTHONY:
Richmond

.- To a very simple question, the Minister for Home Security (Mr. Lazzarini) has given an equivocal answer. At this stage, members of the Opposition are not arguing the merits or demerits of compulsory trade unionism. Strong grounds may exist for a difference of opinion upon the subject; but the . honorable member for Indi asked in simple language whether men who are conscripted for service in the labour corps and are drafted to Queensland are compelled to join a union. That question calls for a straight answer. If the Minister continues to evade the issue, the only conclusion which the country may draw is that there is good reason for his equivocation. Is the Government ashamed of its policy?

Mr FADDEN:
Darling DownsLeader of the Opposition

– I cannot understand why the Minister for Home Security (Mr. Lazzarini) has not answered the question. The honorable member for Indi (Mr. McEwen) has sought an explanation of the position because last week the Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin) and the Attorney-General (Dr. Evatt) gave conflicting replies to questions upon the subject. In order to remove the confusion that has arisen, I ask the Minister to clarify the matter now.

Mr HOLLOWAY:
Melbourne PortsMinister for Social Services · ALP

– The Allied Works Council has undoubtedly performed a wonderful service for Australia.

Sir Frederick Stewart:

– The honorable member for Dalley (Mr. Rosevear) does not think so.

Mo HOLLOWAY.- The honorable member for Dalley did not complain about the work undertaken by the Allied Works Council. He criticized the Sydney office of the organization.

Mi1. Hughes - The Minister knows that the men would not work with a conscientious objector to unionism.

Mr HOLLOWAY:

– I was general secretary of the Melbourne Trades Hall Council and, for ten or twelve years, I represented the six Trades Hall Councils of Australia, because the Commonwealth Parliament was then sitting in Melbourne. I was also general secretary of the trade union movement, which consisted of 900,000 members throughout Australia. I was trying to make it 1,000,000. In all that time no man with conscientious objections was forced to join a union. The same condition applies to-day. The Attorney-General does not fix the policy for the trade union movement. The Prime Minister could not do so. It is too big for any member of Parliament to interfere with it. Trade union policies are determined by that movement, not by Parliament.

Opposition Members. - Too true !

Mr HOLLOWAY:

– The status of the trade unions is fixed by the law of the land. All trade unions must be registered with the Arbitration Court Tinder the Arbitration Act. What the AttorneyGeneral said was that, if representations were made to him that a person had conscientious objections to joining the union, he would straighten out, the difficulty if he could.

Sir Frederick Stewart:

– Wo, he said that the Director-General of Allied Works, Mr. Theodore, had told him that, compulsory unionism was not the policy of the Allied Works Council.

Mr HOLLOWAY:

– I did not know that. The questions asked by the Opposition have been answered unequivocally, and I ask the committee to agree unanimously to the proposed vote.

Mr HARRISON:
Wentworth

– We have had a variety of answers from Ministers to our simple question: Are men conscripted by the Allied Works Council for work in Queensland compelled to join the Australian Workers Union? The Attorney-General (Dr. Evatt) was the first Minister to try to explain the matter. The Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin) explained it in a different way. The Minister for Home Security (Mr. Lazzarini) had yet another explanation. The last explanation that we have been vouchsafed was that of the Minister for Social Services (Mr. Holloway). His explanation made confusion worse confounded. The honorable gentleman tried to draw an analogy between workers who have to show their union membership ticket before they may take employment in a munitions factory, and men called up by the Allied Works Council. He knows that there is no parallel between munitions workers and the white-collar men who, having been forced out of business by the policies applied by the Minister for War Organization of Industry (Mr. Dedman), are grabbed for pick <and shovel work by the Allied Works Council. The men engaged in munitions establishments are not conscripted, or compelled to go to Queensland to work. I am amazed that the honorable member, with his long trade union experience, should have made such a sorry attempt to justify the actions of the Government. All the different accounts that we have had have connrmed our suspicions that there is more behind this matter than meets the eye. The right honorable member for North Sydney (Mr. Hughes) asked the Minister for Social Security the simple question whether members of the Clothing Trades Union - or any other union for that matter - called into service by the Allied Works Council and sent to Queensland, would find that their membership of that union exempted them from having to join the Australian Workers Union. The Minister dodged answering the question by saying that no members of that union would be conscripted by the Allied Works Council, because all are engaged on the manufacture of uniforms for the armed forces, but several members of that union are not at present engaged in the clothing trade. The evasion of Ministers confirms our belief that the Government is trying to bring about compulsory unionism and to force people who, all their lives, have been opposed to the Labour party to contribute to that party’s funds through the device of grabbing them for pick and shovel work in Queensland. I advise the Prime Minister to call a meeting of caucus so that

Ministers may be able to come into this chamber with an answer to our question.

Mr CURTIN:
Prime Minister · Fremantle · ALP

Mr Makin:

The CHAIRMAN ‘(Mr. Prowse).Order! If the honorable member for Ballarat (Mr. Pollard) interjects again, I shall be obliged to name him.

Mr SPENDER:

– Many non-unionists have been called up and sent to work in the Civil Constructional Corps, and I have no doubt that numbers of them have bona fide objections to compulsory trade unionism. What we want to know is : Who determines whether a man’s objections are bona fide or otherwise?

Mr POLLARD:
Ballarat

.- This discussion is doubly regrettable in view of the fact that last week I exposed what was undoubtedly a deliberate plot by honorable members opposite to play a diabolical party political game while the nation is engaged in this dreadful war. I have never said that I do not believe in party politics. As a matter of fact, I am a fervent believer in the party system, for I realize that under that system a government’s administration will be closely studied and, when necessary, vigorously criticized. Honorable gentlemen opposite, however, have asserted frequently that during the war party politics should be discontinued. Yet they have continued almost incessantly, since Parliament re-assembled on the 2nd September, to play a diabolical game of party politics. This was shown clearly in the letter to which I referred last Friday. Honorable gentlemen have used every petty excuse that they could find in the last three weeks to belittle and embarrass the Government. The subject of compulsory trade unionism was No. 1 on the list of items given in the letter circulated by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Fadden), in which he asked Opposition members to assist him to frame an attack on the Government.

Mr Harrison:

– The honorable gentleman is referring to the confidential and private letter which he read.

Mr POLLARD:

– The letter was addressed to me. Because the words “Private and confidential” may be put on a document, sent to me by an honorable member opposite, I do not consider that I am under obligation to regard the document as private and confidential. Let us examine the character of these honorable gentlemen who have made the attack to-night. One is the honorable member for Fawkner (Mr. Holt). Does he believe in compulsory unionism? He is the respected and, doubtless, efficient secretary of the Film Exhibitors Association. That association practises the policy that unless a film exhibitor is a member of the association, fine care shall be taken to ensure that he shall not get any films to exhibit; if he remains obdurate he is forced out of business. Then there are the honorable members for Richmond (Mr. Anthony) and Indi (Mr. McEwen). Throughout their political careers, they have been hostile to the organization of trade unions. Not once have I heard either of them say in this chamber a word in favour of the organization of rural workers in order that they might obtain an award and so become emancipated from the conditions under which they have laboured for years. It is not to be wondered at that the honorable member for Indi objects to pressure being used to induce men to join a union. He entered politics for a specific purpose as the political luminary of the Victorian Country party. He then ran out on the organization that raised him to political eminence, and is now a member of the Country Liberal party of Victoria.

Mr McEwen:

– That is typical of the misrepresentation which we have come to expect from the honorable member.

Mr POLLARD:

– It is fact, however hot under the collar the honorable member may be. The honorable member for Warringah (Mr. Spender) slipped into this Parliament as an independent, and had no scruples about subsequently slipping into the United Australia party, because membership of it gave him an opportunity to get into the Cabinet. He is in the same category as the man who evades joining a union that covers his trade or calling notwithstanding that he believes in its principles. Then there is the honorable member for Wentworth (Mr. Harrison), who was a member of a fascist organization before the war. These are the honorable gentlemen who to-night delivered an attack on the Government, merely because they had failed to stampede tho Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin) into answering “ yes “ or “ no “ to a question he had been asked. With equal justification, I could ask the honorable member for Indi the well-known question, “ Have you ceased beating your wife V If the answer were “no “, he would be in bad repute, and if it were “ yes “ he would be in equally bad repute. Because an answer to another trick question could not be obtained from the Prime Minister, this party political fight has been staged tonight. I am confident that when the people throughout Australia read the report of the debate, and particularly the revelations that were made last week, in conjunction with reports of other attacks on the Government, they will be more disgusted than ever with those responsible for such a deplorable display. After all, the advent to this Parliament of every honorable member opposite was sponsored by organizations which in their own ranks enforce compulsory unionism of a kind. There is the manufacturing grocery organization. No grocer who is a member of it may sell a tin of Nugget boot polish, a packet of McAlpine’s flour, or a packet of Wheaties, except at the price listed by it. This practice operates throughout the ramifications of big business, the object being to protect the interests of its mem bers. Only when the Government says that the interests of the wage-earners shall be similarly protected, is there a howl of protests from honorable members opposite. Compulsory unionism is good for members of the Opposition, for the people who support them, and for every body associated with them, but quite wrong for the working man.

Rarely indeed do I find myself at variance with the honorable member for Batman (Mr. Brennan). I differ from him, not in connexion with his protests against the brevity of the period that elapses before a man is called up to work for the Allied Works Council, but in regard to what I assume to be a protest by bini against men who have been in clerical and other sedentary occupations being put on labouring work. Unfortunately, we are at war. That we have to fight for our very existence, is accepted. What happens to the soldier who is conscripted ? He is young and virile. Irrespective of whether he has come from a clerical or a sedentary occupation, he has to do his share of trench digging and other manual labour. If the clerical workers of this country, be they accountants, lawyers, shop assistants, clerks, insurance agents or commercial travellers, think that there are enough clerical positions in the Allied Works Council for them to be employed in sedentary occupations, they have “ another think “ coining. A world of good would be done to a lot of people who have been in clerical positions m the past if they had to do some form of manual labour. 1 believe that, as the result of their experiences, a large number of people of that class will be more sympathetic to the manual worker than they have been in the past. For a number of years, I have had the privilege and pleasure of travelling first class on the railways, due to the good grace of the electors of Ballarat. On many occasions I have heard white-collar gentlemen, not unlike honorable members who occupy the front bench opposite, when they have seen a railway navvy resting as the train went by, pass such derogatory remarks as “ The government stroke “ and “ The lazy working man “. If the honorable members for Warringah, Indi, Deakin and Wentworth were enlisted in the Civil Constructional

Corps, arid were put on the end of a pick and shovel for a while, they would have a lot more sympathy than they now have for the manual worker. The work would do them good, and be of great benefit to this country. I regret that this sort of party political propaganda has been persisted in by the Opposition against the Government, which is doing a good job in carrying the war effort to a successful conclusion in this country.

Mr HUTCHINSON:
Deakin

.- The honorable member for Ballarat (Mr. Pollard) has just informed the committee that this discussion is regrettable. I agree with him; but it is regrettable from the point of view of the Government, not that of the Opposition. It is all the more regrettable in that the honorable member has indulged in personalities that were uncalled for. A very simple question was put to the committee by the honorable member for Indi (Mr. McEwen). It had been put previously, and two different opinions had been given in respect of it, one by the Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin) and the other by no less a person than the Attorney-General (Dr. Evatt). In such circumstances, quite apart from the importance of the subject, one can well understand why honorable members on this side of the chamber were anxious to have a clear and definite statement of policy from the Government. May I state a simple case? Smith, shall we say, is a member of a builders’ association or a grocers’ association in Melbourne. He may be one of thousands of small shopkeepers whose businesses have been closed during the last few months on account of war conditions. Because his services are required by the Allied “Works Council, he is conscripted and is entrained for Brisbane to work for the council in Queensland.

Mr Rosevear:

– Is the honorable member in favour of that?

Mr HUTCHINSON:

– Of course. In a time of war, the Government must have all the power that it needs to organize and control the community. Members of the Government party, not of the Opposition, have objected to that. As a conscripted person, this gentleman is compelled to join a trade union when he gets to Queensland. The honorable member for Indi has asked whether it is the policy of the Government to compel such a conscript to join a union, even though his political beliefs may be entirely at variance with those of the union. We have had a series of speeches by Government members, but have not yet had a clear statement as to what rule the Government adopts. It is all very well for the Prime Minister to use the words “ quite frankly “ on at least two or three occasions while completely sidestepping the issue. The right honorable gentleman prevaricated, equivocated, and talked all round the subject; but we could not obtain from him on behalf of the Government a simple statement of policy. We do not want the grand poseur; we are becoming a bit tired of that, because we have had a little too much of it from the right honorable gentleman during the last few months. We want a dignified and straightforward statement of policy from the Leader of the Government; and that is what we have not been able to get. Surely it is possible for the right honorable gentleman to say whether it is the policy of the Government to compel a builder or other small business man, from Victoria or any other State, who goes to Queensland, to join a trade union ! The question i? a simple one; surely a simple answer can be given to it, one that may be understood not only by us, but. also by the great Australian public. Thousands of persons beyond the boundaries of the State of Queensland are wondering what is the policy of the Government. The Prime Minister ,said that from past experience of unionism he could say that in many instances in which conscience was involved men had not been required to join a union. In answer to an inquiry from this side of the chamber while the honorable member for Warringah was speaking, as to who would be the judge, the right honorable gentleman implied, by way of interjection, that he would be a union steward or another person holding office in the union. We are not. concerned with the attitude of any union officer, but we are concerned with the policy of the Government. Australia is engaged in a war. We heard to-night from the Minister for

Home Security (Mr. Lazzarini) how seriously he regards the position of this country at the moment. Because of the existence of a state of war, the Allied Works Council has been constituted. That body is subject to the control of this National Parliament and the Commonwealth Labour Government. Therefore, any policy enunciated by the Government necessarily becomes the rule that guides the actions of the council. Even though there may be a particular law in a State, it is transcended by the law of the Commonwealth. Therefore, we are justified in asking the Government to give a clear answer to our question. The Labour party is responsible for the continuance of party politics, not the parties that occupy the opposition benches. That has been the position almost since the outbreak of the war, and we have had no option but to accept it. On different occasions, we have attempted to obtain a national government. On the last occasion, we actually offered the prime ministership, if necessary, to the then Leader of the Opposition - who to-day is the Prime Minister - or any other member who was suitable and acceptable to the majority of members. That offer was turned down. We say to-night that we would have a national government to-morrow.

The members on this side of the House are nominally from two parties, but for all practical purposes we are one party. So far as is possible, we are completely united, because we are convinced that the interests of this country far transcend the interests of any political party. During the last day or two, we have been assured by honorable members of the Government that oil and water do not mix. L say that oil and water have mixed very well in the Services, and what can be done there can be done here. I agree with Churchill when he said, “Let us into the storm, and through the storm”; but we shall go through the storm much better if we go through it together.

– The Minister never allowed previous governments to work through an all-night sitting without calling for quorums almost every fifteen minutes, thus delaying the business of the Parliament. We on this side of the chamber allowed the Government business to proceed unhindered last night. Do not say that we are stone-walling. Every body knows that the honorable member for Indi (Mr. McEwen) and others on this side of the chamber are seeking information. Honorable members opposite have said that the success of the Allied Works Council’s activities was due to the fact that its employees were 100 per cent, unionists. That is entirely wrong. In order to illustrate my point, I refer to a letter which I have received from a man who was called up but refused to contribute to union funds. I mention the fact without supporting his refusal. He was told, “ We take no notice of those- who refuse “.

Mr Holloway:

– Why does the honorable member ask whether unionism is compulsory?

Sir CHARLES MARR:

– Because I say that it is not supported by 100 per cent, of the workers.

Mr Holloway:

– Why ask whether unionism is supported by all of the workers, when the honorable member knows damned well that it is not?

Sir CHARLES MARR:

Mi-. FRANCIS.- The policy of the Government should be to win the war. Interference with the wages and conditions of individuals, by compelling them to contribute to union funds, will impede the war effort.

Mr Ward:

– Ninety-five per cent, of our soldiers are unionists.

Mr FRANCIS:

– That statement is incorrect. More than 50 per cent, of the people engaged in industry are not trade unionists.

Mr James:

– Does not the honorable member believe in trade unionism?

Mr FRANCIS:

– That is not the subject of discussion. I contend that men who are called up for service in the Civil Constructional Corps should not be required to contribute to trade union funds. When the people realize what the Government is doing, the repercussions will be tremendous. Wages, hours and conditions of employment for members of the Civil Constructional Corps should be fixed by the Government. a3 the Government is compulsorily calling up the men and employing them, it is also responsible for their rates of pay and conditions. While Ministers deny to the Opposition an unequivocal answer, the action, of the Government will continue to be suspect.

Mr WARD:
Minister for Labour and National Service · East Sydney · ALP

. - The Opposition has accused the Government of endeavouring to introduce compulsory trade unionism. As Minister for Labour and National Service I have endeavoured at all times to get 100 per cent, unionism. Both in my department and in any other sphere where my influence can be used, I have endeavoured to achieve that object. No section of the community has made greater sacrifices in order to assist the Government to secure a 100 per cent, war effort than has the trades union movement. To this end, trade unionists have sacrificed rights which were not conceded to them by antiLabour governments, despite the fact that it is difficult to-day to find any member of the Opposition who expresses open antagonism to trade unionism as such. Those rights were won by the unions after many years of struggle. Since the outbreak of hostilities the unions have voluntarily relinquished many of those rights for the duration of the war, because they desire to assist the nation in its hour of need.

The honorable member for Moreton (Mr. Francis) stated that repercussions will follow when the public learns that the Government is endeavouring to use its war-time powers to implement the policy of the Labour party. Why should not the Government take every opportunity to give effect to its policy? In my opinion, the only policy that is likely to assist the people of the country is the policy of the Labour party. My only complaint is that the Government hesitates too much in giving effect to certain phases of its policy. Honorable members opposite speak glibly of an all-in war effort, and support any form of conscription or compulsory service, always provided that the element of compulsion is applied only to the workers. But when the Government recently proposed to limit profits by a method of compulsion, the Opposition raised a score of objections. Honorable members opposite object to men being compelled to contribute to trade union funds, and contend that the Government should protect the conditions prescribed by awards. While private individuals control industry, it is necessary to employ an army of organizers and officials to compel unscrupulous employers to observe awards. Legislation and Arbitration Court awards do not ensure to the workers that to which they are entitled, ‘because some employers are continually endeavouring to avoid their obligations under the law. If union officials are required to compel the observance of awards, why should not a small minority of workers fall into line with the vast majority and contribute to the maintenance of the unions?

Mr Francis:

– Because, in this instance, the Government is the employer.

Mr WARD:

– The Government is not the employer in all cases. A good deal of the work is carried out, not under the direct control of the Government, but by private enterprise. Trade unions are rendering invaluable ‘assistance to the Government. Many of them have been weakened numerically because they released their members for other work. They have also supported the plans of the Government for the rationalization of various industries. Despite this service rendered by the unions, honorable members opposite contend that the Government is under no obligation to assist them to preserve their strength and virility. In the period of post-war reconstruction, the trade union movement must be strong, because it will be the basis of a progressive programme of rehabilitation. If the movement be seriously weakened during the war, all the talk about a “ new order “ will be as futile as it was during the last war. The “ new order “ which honorable members opposite envisage, and which they are endeavouring to establish, is the system of the Axis countries. Some people in Australia still believe in nazism and fascism, and honorable gentlemen opposite are not immune from the charge of endeavouring to break down workingclass organizations.

Mr McLeod:

– They would like to disband them.

Mr WARD:

– That is true. They do not object to employees’ organizations in which the officials are provided by the bosses. They object only to organizations that are affiliated with the Labour party. If the bosses’ unions were affiliated with the United Australia party, honorable members opposite would raise no objection. Recently, the insurance companies proposed to form a new organization, and intimated that those employees who did not join it would lose their jobs. Honorable members opposite did not object, and say that the new organization was unnecessary because a trade union already covered this class of employment. They have supported all sorts of “ scab “ organizations which, they believe, will weaken the trade union movement, and they have endeavoured to force men into these so-called trade unions to the detriment of the Labour movement generally. If the honorable member for Moreton desires an unequivocal answer to the question which has been directed to members on the Government side of the House, I say that the Labour Government is giving effect to the policy of the Labour party. It is the policy of the Labour party to assist the unions to make themselves strong and virile. If a minority of individuals wish to place their own interests before those of the nation and endeavour to delay important works because they want to be out of step with the majority, the Government will not assist them. Where we can use our influence and endeavours to secure the co-operation of trade unions we shall do so. The honorable member for Parkes (Sir Charles Marr) declared that he had been a member of a trade union for 47 years. Generally, when men join the trade unions their political education progresses, and all I can say about the honorable member for Parkes is that his membership of a union for 47 years is probably the worst advertisement that trade unionism could ever receive. The Allied Works Council is obliging its employees to join bona fide unions. In the Department of Labour and National Service we have directed employees to become members of bona fide organizations. We make no apology for doing so. We think that the trade unions are doing a. wonderful job in the war. The war could not be won without the assistance of the trade unionists, and the Government will assist them to the maximum of its ability.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Defence and War (1939-42) Services

Proposed vote, £123,749,000.

Mr CALWELL:
Melbourne

– A week or so ago I asked the Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin) whether it was the intention of himself or some other Service Minister to visit Port Moresby because of the importance of New Guinea to the defence of Australia, and because of the events there. It is singularly strange that neither the Prime Minister nor any Service Minister has visited any of the battle stations in the north of Australia. Neither he, as Minister for Defence, nor any Minister of a Service department has visited Port Darwin since the Japanese raids on that town. The Minister for the Army (Mr. Forde) has been to Townsville; but, generally, all the activities of the Government have been concentrated in Canberra. This behaviour is in marked con trast to that of the British Prime Minister, Mr. Churchill, who, before Dunkirk, visited the army in France, and who, since Dunkirk, has made several visits to America to see the President of the United States of America, Mr. Roosevelt. He has travelled by battleship and by aeroplane. He has visited Moscow and conferred with M Stalin and M. Molotoff. He has visited the forces in Egypt, and, generally, he has given proof that he is a dynamic personality, and that he wants to see things on the spot. I believe that it is vitally necessary for Australia, for the morale of the public, for the morale of the forces, and for the sake of this Parliament, that some senior Minister should visit Port Moresby immediately. There is so much being said about Port Moresby to-day, and there are so many fears in the public mind about what is happening there that I do not think that it should be left entirely to generals to report upon. I have no lack of confidence in our Army commanders; but, if it be wise for Mr. Churchill to visit vital points in the Empire’s defence areas, it is equally necessary that senior Ministers should visit Port Moresby and Darwin.

The right honorable member for North Sydney (Mr. Hughes) has been saying a good deal lately about Port Moresby, and his statements cannot go unanswered. They may be right or wrong; but whatever answer there is should be given, and the best answer that could be given would be supplied by a Minister who had visited the scene. The honorable member for Indi (Mr. McEwen) has been to Port Moresby, and has formed certain opinions about it, and I have no doubt that he has given to the Advisory War Council the benefit of his opinions as to the conditions prevailing there. The right honorable member for North Sydney has not been to Port Moresby, but he has made some challenging statements, which have appeared in the press in recent weeks. The latest is a statement in the Melbourne Sun of Monday, the 21st September -

If Australians are to be sent into jungle fighting they must be led by men who understand jungle tactics, said the Federal U.A.P. Leader (Mr. Hughes) last night. The men’s equipment must be lightened, their uniforms dyed green, and their rations compressed, he added.

Mr. Hughes was commenting on a statement by Osmar White, the Melbourne Sun’s war correspondent, that the Australians would not have been pushed back over the Owen Stanley Range if they had been adequately trained and deployed.

Civilians could not understand why the men had not been given intensive jungle training long ago. “ One would have thought that what happened in Malaya would have stirred the military command to feverish action,” said Mr. Hughes. “ It came as a shock to learn that in the face of this tragic debacle nothing had been done to ensure the safety of Port Moresby.

The tactics that gave the Japanese a sweeping victory at Malaya arc being repeated in New Guinea, and so far with equal success. And now, as before the fall of Singapore, the commander is confident that all will be well.

A little over a month ago, when I commented on the fall of Buna and Kokoda, we were told that the occupation of Kokoda constituted no special threat to Moresby; that the Japanese would have great difficulty in holding Kokoda; and that in a.ny case the Owen Stanley Bango was practically impassable.

The Japanese have crossed the impassable Owen Stanley Range, and are now poised for an attack on Moresby, but the military commander still feels confident.

The Australian people most devoutly hope that this confidence may be justified by events, but their minds are naturally disturbed by what has happened.”

The right honorable member for North Sydney has had a long career in federal politics. He certainly .possesses the art of the graphic phrase and a remarkable aptitude for timing his statements. He generally expresses himself in language that compels attention and provokes thought. His statement should be replied to by the Minister for the Army (Mr. Forde), or some other responsible Minister, because the public mind will not be helped if it is left unanswered. The best way to answer it is for a senior Minister to go to Port Moresby himself and see whether it is necessary to alter the uniforms or lighten the rations and improve the equipment of the troops.

Mr Abbott:

– Why not send him to the Owen Stanley Range? Why stop at Port Moresby?

Mr CALWELL:

– The Japanese are 38 miles from Port Moresby. An Australian Minister could go as near to the battle line as the Prime Minister of Great Britain went.

Mr Abbott:

– Or as far as the late Honorable W. A. Holman went when Major-General Holmes was killed alongside him.

Mr CALWELL:

– Dozens of examples of that sort could be cited. Before Parliament adjourns, or immediately after, a senior Minister should look into things in New Guinea, because it is possible that, the military command is in error in believing that Australian troops wearing khaki and heavy boots, and weighed down with all the equipment that might be suitable for desert or trench warfare, are suitably equipped for jungle warfare. J do not necessarily subscribe to anything that the right honorable gentleman has said in his press statements; but, at any rate, he takes the responsibility for his own views and is entitled to express them.

Lately I have brought to the attention of the Minister for the Army quite a number of matters affecting his department, and there are others to which I shall direct his attention to-night. Parenthetically, I remark that, honorable members are at a disadvantage in discussing this proposed vote in the way it has been presented, in that, the Departments of Defence, Navy, Army, Air, Munitions, Aircraft Production, Supply and Development and Home Security are grouped. If the provision for each was shown individually, I and other honorable members would have been able individually to discuss matters affecting thevarious departments as they came up for discussion, instead of under the one heading.

I have received a letter from a married man in his 40’s who has travelled extensively since I first met him years ago. As it deals with a. subject of some importance I shall read the following extracts to honorable members: -

Another matter I have studied somewhat closely, in wanderings through northern Queensland and some Pacific islands, is making itself felt - one aspect of it at least - in the demands by large concerns for “compensation “ for the loss or damage to mining and commercial undertakings in New Guinea and elsewhere, due to war causes. One large company operating in New Guinea intends to get close on £2,000,000 from the Commonwealth, to enable it to resume, after the war, the socially useless gold-mining business it conducted, very profitably indeed, up to almost six months ago. Like others who have studied the workings of this and other corporations on the spot, I hope that yourself and other Labour men will insist that when talk of compensation begins in earnest, attention will be paid to the need of such compensation, however small, in view of the extraordinary profits made for many years by these people, whose sole function in social life was to secure gold from the soil of one country, by the soulless exploitation of white and native labour, and ship the gold to another country, where it was re-buried in the soil, for the protection of financial monopoly and the degradation of God’s poor. In the paying of compensation preference could surely be given to those ordinary every-day people who have lost everything, before millionaire groups who have merely lost, temporarily, the use of one of several unbelievably rich undertakings. One or two of these .groups also deserve attention for their treatment of young Australian employees who, last year, were refused due rises in wages until they “ voluntarily “ joined the Militia in that area, and put in a lot of their spare time under military control; us soon as the Japanese invasion touched New Guinea these youths, some under eighteen years of age, were conscripted on the spot and sent out into the jungle (and no one knows what that means who has not been there), while the “ staff “ were flown to safety in Australia. After the war these young mon - those of them still alive - whom I know personally, will no doubt be permitted to work again for their at present absentee masters, whose sole activity while in safety in Australia is to agitate for the payment of “ compensation “ by the million, in order that a few bombed dredges and workshops shall be re-built at the public expense, rather than by drawing on the capital owned by these companies.

Mr Jolly:

– Would such cases be covered by war damage insurance?

Mr CALWELL:

– I do not know; but 1 doubt whether gold-mining risks would bc covered.

I now bring to the attention of the Minister for the Army complaints from certain men who have been returned to Australia following trial by court martial. These reveal that harsh treatment has been meted out to men under circumstances which, in my view, do not by any means warrant it. One letter reads as follows : -

I wish to bring under your notice the thanks we have got for joining up to fight for democracy and freedom of speech. I have been overseas for nearly two years, leaving a wife and daughter and seven pounds per week for 2s. (ki. per day, and the chap in the cell with me has been away for two and a half years.

When we came aboard under escort at Ceylon, we were placed in a small cell down tha bottom of the ship. The only air we got came through a little air vent, which came from the top deck of the ship. During the voyage we were taken up on deck for one hour each day for air.

Wc arrived at Fremantle on Tuesday, the 2Sth July. As soon as they started to coal the ship tho air vents were turned off, leaving us gasping to get our breath. We asked the military police who were our guards if we could go up on deck for a while. He told us that his orders from the Officer Commanding Troops were that we were not allowed to go up on deck while the ship was in port, although there were six armed guards with revolvers looking after the two of us. Even the Germans on the raider Wolf allowed prisoners one hour on deck each day, as stated by an English officer who was a prisoner on that ship.

I have been in hospital for nearly three mouths in Palestine, with chronic bronchitis, but that made no difference. I was still kept down below with no air coming in. The soldier in tho cell with mc is suffering from venereal disease, and the second day wc were at Fremantle he was rolling about in his bunk with pain, and when he asked for medical treatment he was told that the medical officer had gone ashore on leave. He was called up and treated on the Thursday, the 30th July. This is our fourth day here with the air cut off and not allowed up on deck for any.

It is bad enough to have to come back to your own countrymen under lock and key after nearly two years’ service overseas owing to a mistake made through drink, without having to be subjected to Gestapo methods.

Owing to the man-power shortage, I respectfully ask you to go into the matter of prisoners returning home, some with two and a half years overseas’ service and training, who have seen action. It has cost the taxpayer some hundreds of pounds to bring these men up to their present standard of training, and nearly all, of which many are only boys, have never been in trouble until joining the Army.

At the present time, and in view of the position Australia is now in, would it not be far better to utilize the valuable experience these men have had, by suspending their overseas sentences, in order that they may have the opportunity to fulfil their object in joining the Australian Imperial Force, that is by taking part in the fight for their own country, instead of being locked up, and kept at the expense of the people.

As you have been a friend to the boys while we were away, I am confident that you will give this matter your immediate attention. As the contents of this letter are perfectly true, I am adding my name and address, together with a few of the boys that are aware of these facts.

I also have a diary noting day to day events, which could be referred to regarding this letter. We were in port at Fremantle foi four days. During that time the air wa» turned off and we never left the cell except to go to the lavatory on the next deck.

You know, sir, it is utterly useless for us to attempt to bring these matters before any one, or to apply for an investigation. You are our only hope. I respectfully ask that you refrain from using mine, or any other numbers or names for publication. But you may use them for any enquiry by the military. The undersigned have read this letter and declare the facts true.

That letter is signed by five men of the Australian Imperial Force. It contains the following postscript: -

PS. - We have been given to understand that our allotment will be stopped. As my wife and daughter are solely dependent on mine, I respectively ask you to inquire as to whether they will have to starve while I am serving this time.

Several days ago I asked the Minister for the Army, upon notice, for a list of the sentences imposed upon returning members of the Australian Imperial Force while on transports, and after their return to this country. The list revealed that in some instances the sentences were savage. I cited several of the cases in speaking on the adjournment one night last week. I refer particularly to sentences by Major Cochrane, who is not an Australian, but who was a permanent presiding officer in respect of courts martial in Ceylon. The Minister promised me that he would inquire into those cases.

Mr Forde:

– I assure the honorable member that I am doing so. .

Mr CALWELL:

– I have received a number of letters from various people relative to the treatment by the Department of the Army of certain persons who, in my view, should receive allowances from the department but have been denied them. A gentleman who lives at Alexandria, New South Wales, wrote to the Minister on this subject on the 6th September. He informed me that up to the 20toh September he had not received a reply. His letter was as follows: -

A member of the Australian Imperial Force (widower with one child) is allowed ls. 6d. per day by your Government for the child. If the child’s mother was alive your Government would pay 3s. per day for his child. That is what is being done with regard to .the daughter of P. F. Carwardine No. NX21220 (my son) whose daughter is living with mc, and tho District Finance Office states that that is the law, though admitting that it is most unreasonable and unfair.

I shall be obliged if you will, as Minister for the Army confirm the correctness of this or otherwise.

I wrote to the Minister for the Army on the subject, setting out the facts of the case. I consider that if a widower with children enlists his dependants should be entitled to the regular allowance payable in respect of children of soldiers who are not widowers. It is outrageous also that if the grandmother cares for a motherless child while its father is on active service, the department does not acknowledge a responsibility to pay an allowance. My reply to that gentleman’s letter was as follows : -

In reply to your letter of the 20th instant concerning the differential treatment meted out in the matter of dependants’ allowance for the motherless child of a member of the military forces, I beg to advise you that I have hall several cases of this sort brought to my notice from my own constituents and have mad( many protests thereon.

So far finality has not been reached by the Department of the Army, but I intend to insist that such children shall be treated like other children whose mothers have been spared.

I will bring to the notice of the Minister for the Army the fact that you have not hail a reply to your letter of the Ctb idem and will raise the general question in the House some time this week.

It is gross injustice that the Government of a country which, to use the words of parliamentarians and press agents, “ is very grateful for the services of the men and women who fight for it, and will never forget their sacrifices “ should refuse allowances in such cases.

I addressed a letter to the Minister for the Army on the 29th July on the subject of improper language by certain members of the forces, but I have not yet received a reply. My letter read -

I send you the enclosed cutting from the Sun of 14th July and invite your attention to the report that most of the songs sung by Australian soldiers when going to the battle front in Egypt were unprintable.

If the report is correct I feel sure you will agree that this is a most lamentable state of affairs. There are regulations forbidding soldiers to approach members of Parliament in regard to grievances and penalties are imposed for breaches of these regulations. There are penalties .too, some of them very heavy, for soldiers being absent without leave. I understand there is also a regulation which forbids the use of obscene, blasphemous and indecent language, but strangely this regulation has never been enforced, nor, as far as I know, has it ever been mentioned in any orders issued to the Army.

By comparison thu American forces are particularly clean-mouthed, whilst any form of filth and obscenity is not only tolerated in our Army but seemingly encouraged by the conduct of many high officers.

If the morale of our forces is low it will take more than the restoration of saluting, on and off parade grounds, to lift i.t to what it ought to be.

J he report is a gross reflection on Australia and must cause mothers perturbation to think that soldiers go into action singing unprintable songs.

Perhaps you might ask General MacArthur to give us a few ideas upon the question as to why his Army does not offend against every canon of decency as many of our men do.

I am told not only by chaplains, but by the men themselves, that the language in Australian camps is often disgusting.

The vast majority of Australians are decent and come from decent homes. Why should they not be able to look upon their service in the Army with pride instead of with regret at having to find themselves in such a degrading environment?

What seems, to be needed is a systematic campaign, sustained by example as well as precept, to encourage such a high, sense of individual responsibility that anything in conduct or language which is obscene, indecent or blasphemous, will be outlawed because it undermines the noblest qualities of a real soldier and betrays a weakness of character disastrous to morale in times of crisis.

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Prowse).The honorable member’s time has expired.

Mr ANTHONY:
Richmond

.- I wish to discuss a matter that is connected principally with the Departments of Commerce and Supply and Development. I refer in particular to the food situation in Australia. This is not the first occasion on which I have directed the attention of this Parliament to the very serious developments that are occurring in the food-producing industries of this country. As long ago as last March I drew the attention of the Government to the fact that unless urgent action were taken a serious decline of the quantities of foodstuffs we had been accustomed to produce was likely. I then referred principally to the foodstuffs produced by the dairying industry, such as butter, bacon and cheese.

– I am glad to hear that. We are now in the fourth year of war, and these things should have been attended to before. These anomalies cause uneasiness in the public mind and tend to bring the Government into disrepute. I want the Government to remain popular with the people. The Hirings Administration of the Army should be in the hands of competent people who are in sympathy with the policy of the Government. I hope that the Government will see that such persons are appointed to the committees and the Compensation Board. It should do so, not only in fairness to itself, but also in fairness to the people I have mentioned, who do not mind being removed from their premises so long as their claims are settled promptly.

I now direct attention to the way in which the Government’s policy in the administration of the Army appears to be deliberately frustrated whenever possible by certain persons occupying high positions in the Army organization. It is apparent that this pinpricking is not accidental. There are numerous instances of the tactics to which I refer. For instance, there was the case of men who returned from abroad and were ordered to remove their Australian Imperial Force colour patches. Only foolishness could have led to such an instruction being issued. At Wallgrove camp some time ago, 200 returned men of the Australian Imperial Force were told to remove their colour patches. They had a sentimental regard for them, and some of the men were inclined to walk out of the camp as a protest. However, the coolerheaded men realized that this would be virtual mutiny, and prevailed upon them to 3end representatives to the Commanding Officer to lodge a protest. In return for this the Commanding Officer fined them a total of £200. That sort of thing does not create contentment in the Army.

Mr Calwell:

– The fine should be remitted.

Mr MORGAN:

– I am glad to say that the Minister for the Army permitted the men to continue to wear a miniature Australian Imperial Force colour patch. I have not heard whether he remitted the fine. However, as the men handled the matter in a democratic and constitutional manner by sending representatives to lodge their protest, they should not have been penalized. The fine should be remitted. The same sort of thing happened in connexion with the metal “ Australia “ badges, which soldiers were ordered to remove from their shoulders. It was claimed that this was done in order to conserve stocks of metal. The futility of that explanation is obvious. There are miles of barbed-wire fences on many of our beaches which apparently serve no useful purpose. These could be used to make all of the “ Australia “ badges that the Army needs for the next 1,000 years. There was something more behind that edict than a desire to conserve metal. Somebody is endeavouring to bring the Government into disrepute among the men of the fighting services. I am glad to say that in this case also the Minister rectified the position, but he did so after the damage had been done, and discontent and friction had been caused. At Tamworth, some soldiers who did not take off their badges immediately, were sentenced to fourteen days detention. These actions do not foster the right spirit in the services. The same thing applies to the transfer to the Australian Imperial Force of members of the Australian Military Forces. It was laid down definitely in this House that there was to be no conscription for overseas service. The Government was satisfied that should the necessity again arise to send our fighting men overseas, sufficient numbers of men would transfer voluntarily from the Australian Military Force to the Australian Imperial Force. In fact, disappointment was expressed by a great number of men when a ban was placed upon transfers from the Australian Military Force to the Australian Imperial Force. The Minister for the Army removed that ban subsequently, and gave the Tight to each individual soldier to apply voluntarily for transfer to the Australian Imperial Force. However, the Minister’s instructions were not put into effect immediately. Month after month went by and men who wished to transfer were not given permission by their commanding officers to do so. In the mean time officers were parading units of the Australian Military Force, and asking those who wished to transfer to the Australian Imperial Force to move to the left, and those who wished to remain with the Australian Military Force, or “ Chockos “ as they are called, to move to the right. Those who were in the minority were expected to accept the will of the majority. That was a form of conscription, and was defeating the policy laid down by the Government, because many soldiers in disgust decided to remain with the Australian Military Force. It took three months to give effect to the Minister’s instructions. There was no reason for such a long delay. It was a deliberate hold-up on the part of somebody in authority who wished to sabotage the policy of the Government. At one stage an Army order was issued, presumably by the General Officer Commanding, stating that no member of the fighting service could have representations made on his behalf in regard to complaints or grievances. That, in effect, denied our soldiers, their relatives and friends the democratic right which they enjoy as electors to make representations through their members of Parliament. However, the Minister has had that right restored. These occurrences show that somebody in authority is out of sympathy’ with the democratic ideals of the people of this country. There are men in the fighting services to-day whose antecedents should be inquired into. I. have had representations made to me privately, and by various organizations, in regard to the presence in our fighting services of such individuals as Colonel Campbell and Captain De Groot, who formerly were associated with the New Guard. The Minister for the Army has informed me that Colonel Campbell is not in the fighting services, and I accept his assurance on that point, but it is admitted that De Groot is in charge of a unit in this State. I suggest that the proper place for some of these people would be in tha Civil Constructional Corps, at the end of a pick and shovel. After all, if this country were invaded, to whom would the emissaries of Tojo or Hitler go for support? “When Hess landed in England, to whom did he go? He went to the Duke of Hamilton. Obviously, if Fascist invaders came to this country, they would not go to cranks such as members of the Australia First Movement. They would contact people like Campbell and De Groot who have Fascist tendencies, and who in the past have endeavoured to create a revolutionary state of affairs by inciting armed civilian disorder. Therein lies the real menace, and I ask the Minister for the Army to assert his authority and see that a state of military control is not permitted in this country. The Government is answerable to the people, and these individuals should be made to understand that they are subject to the instructions of the Government. The Government need only make an example of a few of them to have the whole position cleared up. I ask leave to continue my remarks.

Leave granted; progress reported.

page 750

PAPERS

The following papers were pre sented : -

Air Force Act - Regulations - Statutory Rules 1942, No. 383.

Arbitration (Public Service) Act - Determination by the Arbitrator, &c. - 1942 - No. 33 - Amalgamated Postal Workers’ Union of Australia.

Defence Act - Regulations - Statutory Rules 1942, No. 388.

Lands Acquisition Act - Land acquired - For Defence purposes - Mangalore, Victoria.

For Postal purposes - Alexandria, New South Wales.

National Security Act -

National Security (General) Regulations - Orders -

Control of -

Clothing (Footwear), (Male outerwear), and (Woven underwear) .

Cocoa beans and products.

Manufacture of fur garments.

Prohibited places (2).

Prohibiting work on land (7).

Taking possession of land, &c. (234).

Use of land (11).

National Security (Maritime Industry)

Regulations - Orders - Nos. 3-17.

National Security (Rationing) Regulations - Orders- Nos. 1-12.

National Security (War-time Banking Control ) Regulations - Order - Publication of balance-sheets and profit and loss accounts.

Regulations - Statutory Rules 1942, Nos. 366, 367, 368, 369, 370, 371, 372, 373, 374, 377, 378, 379, 380, 381, 384, 385, 386, 389, 390, 391, 392, 393, 394.

House adjourned at 11.48 p.m.

page 750

ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

The following answers to questions were circulated: -

Ration Book Abuses.

Fruit and Vegetable Production

Mr Blackburn:

n asked the Minister for Commerce, upon notice -

What restrictions now affect the production of vegetables (including potatoes) and fruit, other than the limitations of the supply of labour?
What steps are being taken by him to provide the consumers of Australia with a more plentiful supply of these commodities?

Mr Scully:
ALP

– The shortages of potatoes and of some other vegetables are due to adverse seasonal conditions, man-power problems, shortage of fertilizer, and the heavy demands of the Services. There is not any serious shortage of fruit, but the honorable member’s attention is directed to a statement regarding citrus fruits made by the Minister for Supply and Development on the 16th September, 1942. The following additional information is furnished for the information of the honorable member : -

Potatoes. - The main crop of potatoes is an annual one in each State. In the States of heaviest production, the sowing period is from September to December. The acreage sown in 1941 produced a crop somewhat lower than normal.When the greatly increased demands of the Australian and allied forces occurred, the supply position could not be remedied quickly. The Federal Potato Committee has planned for a greatly increased acreage during the forthcoming planting season, and, provided wet weather conditions do not interfere with the planting, the committee’s objective will be nearly reached. A normal crop from the total acreage which it is hoped willbe planted should produce supplies sufficient for all purposes. Through the Departments of Agriculture special steps are being taken to ensure priority for potato acreage in the use of fertilizers, and the close collaboration existing between the Man Power Directorate and the Commerce Department is expected to result in the provision of adequate labour for planting and harvesting. Although supplies of potatoes will be short for another two months it is estimated that 153,000 acres will be planted, and, if average yields are obtained, this should provide 450,000 tons compared with the average production of 350,000 tons.

Other Vegetables. - The Department of Supply and Development has made some special arrangements for the production of vegetables for Service requirements, and that department, and the Commerce Department, are providing equipment for canning and dehydration respectively. A special committee jointly organized by the Council for Scientific andIndustrial Research and the Commerce Department, has planned for the importation and production of vegetable seeds of various kinds, and sufficient quantities of seed will be available for all purposes. Arrangements have been made, through the Departments of Agriculture, for the supply of adequate quantities of fertilizers for vegetable production, but the Commonwealth Government has not adopted a special production programme for vegetables for civil consumption.

Recruitment of Labour in Tasmania.

Mr Curtin:
ALP

n. - On the 11th September, 1942, the honorable member for Denison (Mr. Beck) asked me the following questions, upon notice: -

Is it a fact that an order was issued that labour was to be recruited in Tasmania to be employed in the mainland States?
If so, which of his Ministers was responsible for the order?
Is the order still in operation?

I furnish the following replies to the honorable member’s questions : -

Yes. Accumulation at dockside of large shipments of equipment necessitated augmenting civilian labourers available to ensure much-needed supplies reaching the armed forces with least possible delay. Consequently, it was decided to raise several labour companies throughout Australia. As the manpower situation prevented these units being raised by normal existing methods it was decided to withdraw suitable persons over 35 years. Tasmania’s quota was 200 men, but only 106 were withdrawn.
The order was given by Army.
The arrangement was a temporary one only, and the men who have been withdrawn will be returned to their units as soon as others unsuitable for field service are available to take their places.

Sales of Land and Properties in New South Wales.

Mr Sheehan:

asked the Minister representing the Minister for the Interior, upon notice -

Will he supply the names of the real estate agents in New South Wales who are acting for the Government in the sales and valuations of land and properties?
Will he introduce a roster system for the purpose of utilizing all reputable real estate and property valuators who desire to act on behalf of the Government?

Mr Lazzarini:
ALP

i. - The Minister for the Interior has supplied the following answers : -

The Department of the Interior does not retain the services of any particular valuator or real estate firm in any of the localities throughout Now South Wales, in which valuations might be required for acquisition purposes. It engages different firms from time to time. Valuations are made on behalf of the Department of the Interior by the district valuators on the State staff of the Commonwealth Taxation Department, also by the District Valuer of the New South Wales Valuer-General’s Department. Additional valuations arc also obtained in certain cases from the leading accredited estate agents operating in the locality in which the particular property under review is situated. A Land Valuation Committee for the State has also been set up in an arrangement between the Departments of the Interior and the Army. This committee deals with property to be acquired under the Lands Acquisition Act 1906-1936 or possessed under the National Security (General) Regulations. The committee comprises the Property Officer of the Department of the Interior in the State as chairman, the Chief Valuer of the Taxation Department, Sydney, and the D.A.D. of Hirings, Army Eastern Command.
In view of the foregoing, it is considered a roster system, as suggested, is unnecessary.

Allied Works Council

Mr Rosevear:

r asked the Minister representing the Minister for the Interior, upon notice -

What are the names and ages of the male employees in the Allied Works Council’s office in Sydney, including the executive officers?
What were their previous occupations?
How many are of military age, and what were the reasons for their exemption from military service?
How many would be normally eligible for call-up by the Allied Works Council if not sheltered by employment in that office?

Mr Lazzarini:
ALP

– The Minister for the Interior has supplied the following answers : - 1 and 2. A considerable amount of work would be involved in obtaining the informa- tion desired by the honorable member. In view of the fact that the whole of the staff are engaged on work of the greatest urgency, it is not practicable to supply the information. If the honorable member will supply the Minister for the Interior with the names of the officers in whom he is interested, efforts will be made to obtain the information desired in regard to them. 3 and 4. Officers of the Allied Works Council who are not members of the Civil Constructional Corps are subject to review by the committee appointed in pursuance of the direction of War Cabinet that the question of exemption from military service should be investigated by a committee representative of the Commonwealth Public Service Commissioner, the Director-General of Man Power, and the Commonwealth authority concerned.

Profiteering.

Mr Beasley:
ALP

y. - At the commencement of this sitting, the honorable member for Darling (Mr. Clark) asked whether it was intended to prosecute a trader who had overcharged Mrs. Madeleine Comino 5s. 3d. on a bottle of olive oil. Mrs. Comino had been advised by the Deputy Prices Commissioner in New South Wales that a refund of 5s. 3d. would be available to her, but she had declined the refund and declared that she considered the trader should be prosecuted.

By arranging for a refund the Deputy Prices Commissioner has done nothing to interfere with the right to prosecute the offending trader. By refusing to accept the refund Mrs. Comino will add nothing towards hastening the prosecution of the trader. The facts are that the operations of this trader are under examination to ascertain whether this is an isolated case. This is the normal practice in the administration of prices control. Mrs Comino’s complaint was attended to with reasonable promptitude, considering the burden of work falling on the prices control authorities, and the next stage is to examine the operations of the trader with a view to deciding whether a prosecution should follow. This is now in progress.

Army Horse Transport at B all ara t.

Mr Forde:
ALP

– On the 18th September, the honorable member for Ballarat (Mr. Pollard) asked the following question, without notice: -

I ask the Minister for the Army whether the section of the Army horse transport stationed at Ballarat has been ordered to vacate its camp in order that Wirth’s circus may be enabled to occupy the area for the conduct of its show?

I have ascertained that the Army horse transport unit located in the Ballarat area is accommodated at the Ballarat showground. I am also advised that it is not the intention to move the Army horse transport unit from the showgrounds.

Rabbit Skins

Mr Scully:
ALP

y. - On the 3rd September, the honorable member for Forrest (Mr. Prowse) asked me the following question, upon notice: -

Will he inform the House the number of rabbit skins sold during the months of April, May, June and July in each of the States of the Commonwealth, and the average price realized ?

The information is as follows. -

The quantity of rabbit skins sold at auction and the average prices realized in the States of New South Wales, Victoria, South Australia and Western Australia during the months of April, May, June and July, 1942, are set out hereunder: -

Notes. - ( 1 ) Rabbit skins are not sold by auction in Tasmania and statistics of quantities sold are not available. Owing to climatic conditions Tasmanian skins are of high quality. Prices paid by the principal main land firm buying in Tasmania averaged between 70d. and 75d. per lb. (2) Rabbit skins quantities in Queensland are negligible. (3) The average prices in the above table cover both “sleeved” and “butchered” skins.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 22 September 1942, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1942/19420922_reps_16_172/>.

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House of Representatives22 September 1942

QUESTION

DAYLIGHT SAVING

Mr PATERSON:GIPPSLAND, VICTORIA

Mr CURTIN:FREMANTLE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1934; ALP from 1936

QUESTION

AUSTRALIAN BROADCASTING COMMISSION

Sir FREDERICK STEWART:PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr CURTIN:Prime Minister · FREMANTLE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP

Mr POLLARD:BALLAARAT, VICTORIA

Mr GEORGE LAWSON:Minister Assisting the Postmaster-General · BRISBANE, QUEENSLAND · ALP

Mr HOLT:FAWKNER, VICTORIA

Mr CURTIN:

Mr Menzies:

Mr CURTIN:

Mr Menzies:

Mr CURTIN:

Mr Menzies:

Mr CURTIN:

Sir Frederick Stewart:

Mr CURTIN:

Sir Frederick Stewart:

Mr CURTIN:

Mr Menzies:

Mr CURTIN:

Mr Calwell:

Mr CURTIN:

QUESTION

DAIRYING INDUSTRY

Mr BERNARD CORSER:WIDE BAY, QUEENSLAND

Mr SCULLY:Minister for Commerce · GWYDIR, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr PATERSON:

Mr SCULLY:

Mr Paterson:

Mr SCULLY:

Mr Paterson:

Mr SCULLY:

Mr PATERSON:

Mr FORDE:Minister for the Army · CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND · ALP

APPLE AND PEAR MARKETING BOARD

QUESTION

SULPHUR FOR SULPHURIC ACID

Mr JOHNSON:KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr BEASLEY:Minister for Supply and Development · WEST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

QUESTION

INTERNATIONAL SUGAR AGREEMENT

Mr BEASLEY:ALP

QUESTION

AUSTRALIAN” ARMY

Mr BARNARD:BASS, TASMANIA

Mr FORDE:ALP

MEAT INDUSTRY

Mr RANKIN:BENDIGO, VICTORIA

Mr SCULLY:ALP

Mr ABBOTT:NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr SCULLY:

Mr RANKIN:

Mr SCULLY:

QUESTION

INCOME TAX ASSESSMENTS

Mr JAMES:HUNTER, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr CHIFLEY:Treasurer · MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

QUESTION

CANTEENS FOE MUNITION WORKERS

Mr MORGAN:REID, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr WARD:Minister for Labour and National Service · EAST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

MILITARY CAMPS

QUESTION

STATUTE OF WESTMINSTER

Mr BRENNAN:BATMAN, VICTORIA

Dr EVATT:Attorney-General · BARTON, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

QUESTION

RUBBER AND PETROL

Mr ANTHONY:RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr BEASLEY:ALP

QUESTION

MAN-POWER

Mr WILSON:WIMMERA, VICTORIA

Mr FORDE:ALP

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:Minister for Aircraft Production · BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

House of Representatives
22 September 1942

Mr PATERSON:
GIPPSLAND, VICTORIA

Mr CURTIN:
FREMANTLE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1934; ALP from 1936

Sir FREDERICK STEWART:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr CURTIN:
Prime Minister · FREMANTLE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP

Mr POLLARD:
BALLAARAT, VICTORIA

Mr GEORGE LAWSON:
Minister Assisting the Postmaster-General · BRISBANE, QUEENSLAND · ALP

Mr HOLT:
FAWKNER, VICTORIA

Mr BERNARD CORSER:
WIDE BAY, QUEENSLAND

Mr SCULLY:
Minister for Commerce · GWYDIR, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr FORDE:
Minister for the Army · CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND · ALP

Mr JOHNSON:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr BEASLEY:
Minister for Supply and Development · WEST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr BEASLEY:
ALP

Mr BARNARD:
BASS, TASMANIA

Mr FORDE:
ALP

Mr RANKIN:
BENDIGO, VICTORIA

Mr SCULLY:
ALP

Mr ABBOTT:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr JAMES:
HUNTER, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr CHIFLEY:
Treasurer · MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr MORGAN:
REID, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr WARD:
Minister for Labour and National Service · EAST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr BRENNAN:
BATMAN, VICTORIA

Dr EVATT:
Attorney-General · BARTON, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr ANTHONY:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr BEASLEY:
ALP

Mr WILSON:
WIMMERA, VICTORIA

Mr FORDE:
ALP

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:
Minister for Aircraft Production · BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

Mr MARWICK:
SWAN, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr SCULLY:
ALP

Mr GEORGE LAWSON:
ALP

Mr CHIFLEY:
ALP

Mr MULCAHY:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr CHIFLEY:
ALP

Dr EVATT:
ALP

Mr SCULLY:
ALP

Mr BEASLEY:
ALP

Mr CLARK:
DARLING, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr BEASLEY:
ALP

Mr HOLT:
Fawkner

Mr MORGAN:
Reid

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:
Barker · ALP