House of Representatives
9 June 1939

15^th Parliament · 1^st Session

QUESTION
- WOOL INDUSTRY
QUESTION
- DARWIN INDUSTRIAL DISPUTE
PRINTING COMMITTEE
QUESTION
- ANGLO-RUSSIAN NEGOTIATIONS
QUESTION
- GIPPSLAND OIL-FIELD
QUESTION
- PHOENIX OIL-FROM-COAL PLANT
QUESTION
- APPLICATIONS TO TARIFF BOARD
QUESTION
- DOLOMITE DEPOSITS IN TASMANIA
QUESTION
- TARIFF BOARD’S REPORTS
QUESTION
- PUBLIC SERVICE ACT
QUESTION
- AUSTRALASIAN PERFORMING RIGHT ASSOCIATION
QUESTION
- MANUFACTURE OF MOTORCARS
QUESTION
- INVALID AND OLD-AGE PENSIONS
QUESTION
- WORKS PROGRAMME
SPECIAL ADJOURNMENT
QUESTION
- NATIONAL INSURANCE
QUESTION
- NEW GUINEA
QUESTION
- INTERNATIONAL LABOUR CONVENTIONS
QUESTION
- HONOURS LIST
QUESTION
- AUSTRALIAN BROADCASTING COMMISSION
NATIONAL REGISTRATION BILL 1939
PAPERS
ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
- Standardization of. Railway Gauges
- Dairying Industry
- Wool, and Wheat Prices
- Cattle Industry
- Overseas Loan
- National Insurance
- Sydney-Rabaul Air-Mail Service
- Supply of Oil Fuel to Pearlers
- Tobacco Industry
- Cotton Industry
- Canberra: Telephone Service

Mr. Speaker (Hon. G. J. Bell) took the chair at 10,30 a.m., and road prayers.

page 1620

QUESTION

WOOL INDUSTRY

Sir EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Is the Prime Minister in receipt of a communication from the AustralianWoolgrowers Council, pointing out the desperate position of the wool industry, and asking for a bounty to enable a margin of profit to be obtained?

Mr MENZIES:
Prime Minister · KOOYONG, VICTORIA · UAP

– I have no recollection of such a communication having been sent direct to me, but I have seen a reference to the matter in the press.

Sir EARLE PAGE:

– Will the Government take action in regard to it?

Mr MENZIES:

– That will be considered. .

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QUESTION

DARWIN INDUSTRIAL DISPUTE

Mr MAKIN:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– Can the AttorneyGeneral give the House any information with regard to the industrial dispute at Darwin? What measures, if any, are being taken with a view to bringing the dispute to a peaceful termination?

AUSTRALASIAN PERFORMING RIGHT ASSOCIATION

Mr ANTHONY:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Has the Prime Minister seena statement in the Sydney Sun of yesterday by Mr. George Sutherland, managing director of Allan and Company Proprietary Limited, and a director of Australasian. Performing Right Association, that he is willing to submit to an independent investigation regarding the fees which he has collected as a member of the association ? In view of that statement, and of the statement made in this House yesterday by the Postmaster-General disclosing that the Australasian Performing Right Association had disbursed among Australasian authors and composers only £88 12s. 8d. out of about £20,000 collected, will he consider the setting up of an independent inquiry into the whole of the activities of the association?

Mr MENZIES:
UAP

– I have not seen the statement, but I shall obtain it, and discuss it with my colleague, the PostmasterGeneral.

Mr JENNINGS:
WATSON, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Has the PostmasterGeneral seen the statement of the general manager of the Australian Broadcasting Commission (Mr. C. Moses), that for every licensed wireless set in Australia the Australasian Performing Right Association is paid ls.1d. a year, which is more than is paid in any other country? With a view to safeguarding the interests of the taxpayers, will the Postmaster-General give immediate consideration to bringing about a reduction of fees paid by the Australian Broadcasting Commission to the Australasian Performing Right Association?

Mr HARRISON:
Minister for Repatriation · WENTWORTH, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

– I have seen the statement referred to, but the Australian Broadcasting Commission does not pay the whole of the ls.1d. mentioned. It pays only Gd., the remaining 7d. being paid by the commercial stations. Contact has been established with the Australasian Performing Right Association, the outcome of which may be some form of arbitration on the subject of fees.

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QUESTION

MANUFACTURE OF MOTORCARS

Mr LANE:
BARTON, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Can the Prime Minister give any information to the House concerning the progress made by the Government in regard to the scheme for the manufacture of complete’ motor cars in Australia? Owing to the uncertainty in the minds of those connected with the industry, its development is ‘being restricted.

Mr MENZIES:
UAP

– I regret that at the present time I cannot usefully add to what has already been said on the matter.

page 1622

QUESTION

INVALID AND OLD-AGE PENSIONS

Mr ROSEVEAR:

– Has the Minister for Social Services yet arrived at a decision with regard to the method of payment of the invalid and old-age pensions? If not, will he also consider the suggestion that it be left to the discretion of the pensioner whether he should be paid by cheque or in the usual way ?

Sir FREDERICK STEWART:
Minister for Health · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

– I have been waiting until the House goes into recess to enable me to investigate personally the conditions under which the payments are made, but I can assure the honorable member that something in the nature of an optional arrangement will receive due consideration, because my own thoughts run along those lines.

page 1622

QUESTION

WORKS PROGRAMME

Mr JOLLY:
LILLEY, QUEENSLAND

– In view of the fact that certain States do not participate to any extent in the large expenditure on defence works, will the Prime Minister give an assurance that consideration will be given to this aspect when the programme of public works is being framed for next year, so as to ensure an equable distribution of expenditure of public funds throughout the Commonwealth?

Mr MENZIES:
UAP

– The matter will receive consideration.

page 1622

SPECIAL ADJOURNMENT

Motion (by Mr. Menzies) agreed to -

That the House, at its rising, adjourn until Wednesday next, at 3 p.m.

page 1622

QUESTION

NATIONAL INSURANCE

Mr JAMES:

– In the event of the. Government’s appeasement policy in. regard to national insurance succeeding with the Country party to the extent of getting its proposal for the appointment of a select committee through the House, will the Minister for Social Services consider giving increased representation upon the committee to representatives of the trade union movement?

Sir FREDERICK STEWART.That matter might well be deferred until the issue upon which it depends has been settled. If the honorable member will assist the Government in arranging for the appointment of the committee, due consideration will be given to his request.

page 1622

QUESTION

NATIONAL REGISTRATION BILL 1939

In committee: Consideration resumed from the 8th June (vide page 1567).

Clause 16 - (1.) A census or censuses of male persons or classes of persons who have attained the age of eighteen years and have not attained the age of65 years shall be taken in such

States, Territories orparts of the Commonwealth and on such day or days or within such period or periods as the Governor-General by proclamation directs. (2.) The nature of the particulars required to be furnished by the persons or classes of persons of whom a census is taken under this section shall be specified in the proclamation.

Upon which Mr. Nairn had moved by way of amendment -

That after the word “ years”, sub-clause ( 1 ) , the words “ and a census of property “ be inserted.

Mr.HOLLOWAY (Melbourne Ports) [10.53]. - Last night, the Minister for Defence (Mr. Street) repeatedly referred to statements made by me and other honorable members regarding the national register, and made it appear that our only objection to the proposal was that it would create a psychology of fear and distrust among the workers. I admit that I frequently made such a statement during my second-reading speech, but I did not suggest that that was the only objection I had to the proposal. I pointed out that the action of the Government in excluding the Commonwealth Government as an employer under the provisions of the Supply and Development Bill, and the absence of a census of wealth from the national register proposals, would definitely create a feeling of distrust and antagonism. Apart from that phase of the matter, however, I have very definite objections to the proposal.I suggest that the amendment of the honorable member for Perth (Mr. Nairn) has no real substance in it. It does not offer any compensation to the people for having to submit to a registration of manpower. Every body knows that, for many years past, some of our people have been fed upon this pap of a census of wealth, but the fact is that the mere making of a record of who owns the wealth of the country will not affect the issue in any way whatever. It may be useful as giving a picture of the distribution of wealth, but it will have no bearing on the question now before us. No useful purpose will be served by preparing a census of wealth unless the Government means to commandeer some of it, and every one knows that the Government has not the slightest intention of doing that. The Minister has said that the Government already has power, in event of an emergency, to commandeer anything it wants. The Government already has power under the taxation laws to take as much of the income of the people as it thinks fit, but whether it will have the courage to exercise that power to the highest degree is another matter.

Two proposals were submitted to the Government in connexion with the census of wealth. The honorable member for Perth proposed that a census should be taken of the property of every one in the community, from pensioners upwards.

Mr HOLLOWAY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA

– I have no desire to put the position unfairly. The honorable member for Martin (Mr. McCall ) proposed that only those persons owning net capital to .the value of £1,000 or more should be required to make returns. The Government, of course, did not want to accept either proposition, but when it had to yield to pressure, it decided to accept the proposal that roped in all of the poor people. That decision, plus the decision to exempt the Government as an employer under the Supply and Development Bill, will certainly create suspicion in the minds of the people.

Mr McCall:

– The Minister has definitely stated that those owning only a small amount of property will not have to make returns.

Mr HOLLOWAY:

– The Minister has made that statement, I know, but he will not be able to address meetings all over Australia and make the people understand what is in his mind. I have said that there is a suspicion in the minds of the people as the result of what has happened in the past, and that suspicion cannot easily be dissipated. When the time arrives, the Minister for Defence will have no more effective power in the administration of this provision than had the right honorable member for North Sydney (Mr. Hughes) when he was Prime Minister during the last war. He told the people that no search warrants would be issued unless they bore his signature, that any others should be ignored; but, as a matter of fact, none of the search warrants bore his signature.

– The honorable member for Melbourne Ports also claimed that what his colleagues had been saying prior to the acceptance by the Government of my amendment is all hooey. Here is a fresh piece of what the honorable member calls hooey. I have in my hand a letter from the Metropolitan Council of the Western Australian branch of the Australian Labour party setting out the following resolution which was passed at a public meeting held under the auspices of the Australian Labour party in the Unity Theatre, Perth, last Friday evening -

Believing that the national register proposed by the Menzies Government is the first step towards the conscription of man-power, this public meeting, held under the auspices of the Metropolitan Council of the Australian Labour party, strongly protests against and declares its determined opposition to such a register, contending that if a national register is necessary, it should include wealth as well as manhood.

Mr THOMPSON:
New England

– After listening to the honorable member for Perth (Mr. Nairn) and the honorable’ member for Melbourne Ports (Mr. Holloway) I -am more convinced than ever that the Government has made a colossal mistake in retreating ingloriously from the strong- .attitude that was taken up by the Minister for Defence (Mr. Street) on the second-reading debate. Speaking during that debate I g.ive reasons why I was very strongly opposed to the inclusion of a so-called wealth census in the national register. I was very gratified to hear the Minister for Defence, when speaking ,a little later, not only endorse those opinions, but also amplify them to a degree which confirmed my own convictions. I was very sorry indeed that, later, the Minister was obliged to come to this chamber and confess that something had happened which compelled him to go back on the attitude he had previously adopted. Of course, I have a great deal of sympathy with the Government in this matter. I am very sorry that it is being forced into a position on such an important national issue as defence in which it finds itself unable to stand up to the commitments which it made to the country. I understood clearly that one of those commitments was that this register of man-power was merely a preliminary defensive measure, and that it had no political significance whatever. The actions of certain alleged supporters of the Government have definitely removed the defensive feature of this register and converted the whole matter into a political issue. As a matter of fact, the honorable member for Perth himself indicates quite clearly that if the Government proceeds with this proposal, it will not only get itself into an unholy mess with regard to this register, but will also raise an issue that need not be raised at all - an issue which will divide the community, one section holding the view that the ultimate intention ‘behind the register is to make a capital levy on the wealth of this country. When speaking last night the honorable member for Bourke (Mr. Blackburn) made what T. regard as the most significant speech in this debate. He made it clear, unless I am doing him a very serious injustice, that nothing short of a capital levy will suit him. He was- bitterly disappointed at the possibility that no such capital levy would be made. In that respect he appeared to be quite out of touch with a section of his colleagues who do not desire to reveal at this stage that the Labour party has any intention to impose a capital levy for defence purposes. Judging by the statements made by the honorable member for Melbourne Ports this morning, one result of this amendment - and probably the only good result - is the creation of a definite cleavage in the ranks of the Opposition.

Mr Martens:

– The honorable member would like to think so.

Mr THOMPSON:

– I agree with the Minister for Defence that if it is not intended to make a capital levy sooner or later, a wealth census is of no value at all, because, quite obviously, any government, irrespective of its political colour, can obtain all the finance it requires through the ordinary legitimate channels, such as income tax, without resorting to a wealth census at all. We are told that in 1915 - and most of us remember the occasion - a census similar to that now proposed was taken, but nothing was ever done with the information then obtained, the whole of the returns eventually being destroyed. Why repeat such a farcical procedure? Why hold over the he,ds of vested interests not only here but also outside - and, of course, Australia’s economy like that of every other country is based on vested interests - the threat that Australia is in panic and proposes to do something that has never been suggested in Great Britain but is peculiar only to totalitarian countries? We know th.it a capital levy has been in operation in Italy for a number of years. I suggest that the slump evidenced in connexion with our recent London loan was due to the fact that our intimation of the likelihood of Australia doing something of this kind was given abroad. As I said the other d.ay, I believe that unless the Government removes from the minds of the people possessing limited resources, who are required to invest in all Government undertakings - and in spite of all they did to help this country in the Great War, and all they .are doing now and will do when called upon - the threat of confiscation of their wealth as a purely political gesture, it will create a serious position in this country, which we are not prepared to face at the present juncture. Some honorable members, particularly the honorable member for Martin (Mr. McCall), declare that the people are failing to respond sufficiently to Government loans for defence. In the last four years £105,000,000 has been taken out of the pockets of the Australian people and vested interests to finance government commitments and only a small proportion of it has been for defence needs. The Treasurers will be in Canberra in a. few days to make colossal demands on the remaining financial balance of this country. Talk in this Parliament about, the conscription of wealth such as has occurred in the last few days is the “best means available to cripple the legitimate financial requirements of the States and to prejudice the chances of the success of Commonwealth loans for purposes of defence. Why not tell the people that this census of property will ‘be of no practical value at all ? I do not expect the Minister to answer that question because it is too difficult to answer. I realize the difficulties that the Government is facing, but if the Govern- ment explored the support that it could get before rushing into sham fights and then beating hasty retreats it would find itself in a better position. Property consists of such things as houses, land, stocks and shares and such things, as well as actual cash, but the people have very little actual cash lying loose in the banks ; what little there is is generally used by the banks for the general purposes of the community, particularly for subscriptions to Commonwealth loans. As was said by the honorable member for Perth (Mr. Nairn) himself, this proposed census of property will cause to the people concerned a great deal of brain-racking trouble in the preparation of complicated returns which the Government never will and never can use. Bather than go on with this Gilbertian procedure, which will completely destroy the efficiency and the value of the man-power register, the Government should courageously face the issue, withdraw the bill and tell the people that it is impossible to do anything, even to make a beginning in the regimentation of defensive measures because of the political issues that are intruded. “Psychology” is a word that has been over used. Honorable members opposite have made frequent recourse to the word during this discussion, but can any honorable member analyse those psychological reasons “ about which they have made so much play? Have they any value? If the Government withdrew the bill and advanced its real reasons for doing so it would receive more support from the people, and the blame for the failure to meet an important requirement in the defence programme would fall where it rightly belongs - on the Opposition and on those sections of the Government party which, for political reasons, do not show any enthusiasm for getting on with a -job which, we, at the last election, as members of the coalition government and supporters of this Government, said must be done. Our first obligation is to make this country safe.

Mr MAHONEY:
Denison

.- I listened with great interest to the arguments advanced ‘by the Minister for Defence (Mr. Street) in favour of the taking of a census of property as well as of man-power, but it was merely camouflage. There is a great difference between human life and property. Human life is sacred and its value cannot be assessed. The census of man-power has as its purpose the pressing of the young men from IS to 21 years of age to undertake the greatest tasks with the greatest risks to life and limb. In my second-reading speech I said that I should never compromise with any government on any question in which human life was involved. The honorable member for New England (Mr. Thompson) made a case for wealth against human life.

Mr Thompson:

– I did nothing of the kind.

Mr MAHONEY:
DENISON, TASMANIA · FLP; ALP from 1936

– If that is the value which the honorable gentleman puts on human life he takes up an inhuman attitude.

Mr Thompson:

– The right honorable member for Yarra (Mr. Scullin) stated yesterday that the Scullin Government had carried out the most successful conversion loan in the history of th<* world up to that time. I remind him that all parties co-operated in connexion with the floating of that. loan. What had happened, of course, was that interest rates had grown to such a point that it was beyond the financial economy of the country to meet them. That being so, the Scullin Government, with the cooperation of the Opposition parties at the time, floated and carried through conversion operations which had the effect of reducing interest rates. It was not a party issue. I remind honorable gentlemen that berind the procedure adopted at that time was a definite threat of compulsion. If those concerned had not converted their holdings, they would have been compelled to do so. In those circumstances, the conversion loan was carried out speedily and completely. I wish to make it very clear that I am opposed to a capital levy. This may be an important issue at the next general elections. I have a considerable respect for the honorable members of the Opposition, but I would not trust all of them “to state my position in this regard clearly during a general election campaign. Therefore, I take this opportunity to do so myself.

There is no truth in the suggestion made by the honorable member for Denison that. I am endeavouring to make out a case for wealth as against human life. No such construction could possibly be placed upon my remarks by any reasonable or fair-minded person. I have no objection to the Government taking action to compel the youth of this country to make their contribution to national security, and I shall be prepared at all times to support any practical measures, whether involving compulsion or not, to ensure that those who control the sinews of war in Australia do their part should emergency arise. I shall always support any legislation which I regard as vital to the safety of the country, irrespective of any influence which may be brought to bear by wealthy interests. I hope that the Government will not be misled into supporting the amendment moved by the honorable member for Perth (Mr. Nairn). That amendment has no logical basis, and it involves differentiation in the so-called wealth register, which, in effect, is actually a register of property. In my opinion the people, of Australia will strongly resent any differentiation, and I see no justification for it. Any person who is required to fill in a registration card with regard to his ability to perform certain work in time of emergency, should also be obliged to fill questions relating to his financial position whether he has any property or not. Any information with regard to wealth will of course be supplemented through ordinary statistical channels, and so the Government will have in its possession a complete record of private financial resources. I fail to see the urgency for the compilation of a national register in regard to man-power, but if it is regarded as necessary, then it should riot have added to it this purely political or psychological factor providing for the investigation of wealth resources. Moreover if there is to be this degree of differentiation which the amendment moved by the honorable member for Perth envisages, then there will be strong resentment among the people of Australia. In my opinion the working people will not be afraid or ashamed to indicate whether or not they have any property. Such information would be kept confidential by the Government and therefore no injustice would be done. I strongly urge that before the Government gives its support to this amendment, it should thoroughly consider whether or not any section of the community should be excluded from the property census. If all men are to be compulsorily required to fill in cards setting out details of their ability to perform certain work as a contribution to national security, then they should also be asked to give details regarding what contribution they could make from their property or wealth resources.

Mr SHEEHAN:
Cook

– I regret the necessity for this clause and for the bill itself. I believe it will have a detrimental effect on the freedom-loving youth of Australia, who will have imposed on them restrictions similar to those existing only in totalitarian countries. Sub-clause 2 of the clause now under consideration states -

The nature of the particulars required to be furnished by the persons or classes of persons of whom a census is taken under this section shall be specified in the proclamation.

I point out, however, that the proclamation will not be in the schedule. The terms of this clause should be varied to such a degree that the proclamation cannot alter anything set out in the schedule, which, I presume, will be introduced by the Minister for Defence to-day.

Mr Street:

– lt is here now.

Mr SHEEHAN:

– This bill provides for the compulsory registration of all males between the ages of 18 and 65 years of age, despite the fact that some of them may be mentally defective, and inmates of institutions. It also includes those young fellows who to-day are seeking to make their way in life by pursuing courses of higher education. In some cases the parents of these boys have had a very difficult task in saving sufficient money to educate their families. A census such as this will take from these young men their desire to launch out into various professions, because they will feel that at any moment their education may be interrupted, and they may be called upon to take their places in some branch of defence activity. Probably those who will be charged with the administration of this legislation will not be possessed of the spirit of humanitarianism. One member of the National Register Board will be the Commonwealth Statistician, a man who deals entirely with figures. Possibly the executive officer of the board will be a. military “ brass-hat “ who thinks only in terms of platoons, companies, battalions and divisions. No consideration will be given to individuals who seek exemption from the provisions of this legislation. I am strongly opposed to the inclusion of youths between the ages of 18 and 21 years in this measure, and I request that it be withdrawn.

Mr GREGORY:
Swan

.- I intend to support the amendment moved by the honorable member for Perth (Mr. Nairn) which provides for the taking of a wealth census. It is intended to use compulsion with regard to the compilation of a register of man-power, and in the event of serious trouble arising the Government should have at its disposal full information regarding the private wealth existing in this country. There is no doubt that in time of war money is a most important factor. It is useless to argue that during the last war ample funds were made available by investors. It is true that many patriotic citizens did offer to place their resources at the disposal of the Government; and even went to the length of mortgaging their properties to do so; but while these people were making their money available at a low rate of interest, other wealthy, but less public spirited, investors were receiving 12 and 15 per cent, on their capital. When the time for the conversion of war loans arrived, those who had been patriotic enough to put their money into war bonds, had to accept a lower rate of interest, while the other wealthy people to whom I have referred continued to draw the same high rates. Both in Australia and in England a great mistake was made in connexion with war loans. In time of emergency every citizen should be compelled to make some sacrifice. If war i3 threatened then subscription to loans, according to a’bility to pay, should be made compulsory, and only a low rate of interest should be paid. In my opinion money borrowed for defence purposes should not carry interest exceeding 2$ per cent. Had such a figure been fixed during the last war, instead of paying up to 6 per cent., a huge saving would have been effected. In addition to high interest rates on all war loans, huge profits were made in Great Britain and many people who at the beginning of the war years had very little money were worth anything up to £16,000,000 or £17,000,000 at the end of the conflict. That money was amassed while other citizens were making sacrifices in the interests of their country.

While the figures relating to wealth would be of little value to the Government in time of peace, they, would undoubtedly be of great value should war occur, and I hope that the committee will agree to have provision for a wealth census incorporated .in this bill.

Mr MARTENS:
Herbert

.- It was very interesting to me to listen to the special pleading on the part of wealth, made by the honorable member for New England (Mr. Thompson). That honorable gentleman said that wealth has always played its part in times of emergency, but I submit that, in the history of this world, wealth has only played its part when a high rate of interest has been offered. The honorable member referred to’ the record conversion loan floated by the Labour Government under the right honorable member for Yarra (Mr. Scullin), and claimed that subscriptions to that loan were made under threat of compulsion. Surely that is an answer to his own argument that wealth has always played its part. While investors were drawing huge sums from war loans during the Great War, 60,000 Australian men sacrificed their lives, and to-day their loved ones are expected to exist on a pittance. When Commonwealth loans were arranged by outside agencies in former years, the average charge was £2 7s. 6d. per cent., but when the Commonwealth Bank took over that work, it was carried out at an -average cost of 7s. 6d. per cent. It ill becomes the honorable member to suggest that the wealthy section desires to do its share towards assisting in the defence of the country, because experience shows that it invariably makes no sacrifices, but insists on drawing full interest rates on all money lent to the Government. The workers, on the other hand, are urged to fight for their country when called upon.

Mr Thompson:

– Is the honorable member in favour of interest-free loans ?

Mr MARTENS:

– -I would compel the wealthy sections to do their share. ‘ The workers are asked to sacrifice their lives in times of national emergency, but the sections which control the money protest at even the slightest reduction of interest rates.

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:
Barker

– I have had an opportunity to peruse the schedule and the amendments proposed by the Minister, but I still stand on the same ground as that taken by him originally in regard to the wealth census. The statement made by some of my friends on the Opposition side last night that the census would not serve a useful purpose, is true. It. would involve a waste of public money, but, worse than that, it would have a serious effect upon the financial and economic stability of the country. I agree with the honorable member for New England (Mr. Thompson) that the mere mention of a wealth census would cause visions of a capital levy, and this would have unfavorable repercussions overseas. Financial and economic conditions in Australia, also, would be adversely affected. The next effect of the proposal would be to produce uncertainty to a grave degree as to the ultimate desire of the Government in regard to the census. I say emphatically, and with very great regret, that the bill would be of little value as far as defence is concerned. I was hoping that the proposed national register would yield something of calculable value. I endeavoured unsuccessfully to have certain additional information obtained by means of the questionnaire, and I said that if, for political reasons, it was considered inadvisable to ask for that further information, it was clear that the altered attitude of the Government regarding the wealth census was due entirely to political considerations.

Mr Street:

– I deny that.

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:

– I still maintain that it was on account of political reasons alone. Probably the Government has not calculated the reaction which must follow its acceptance of the amendment submitted last night by the honorable member for Perth (Mr. Nairn). The glee with which the Opposition regarded its acceptance by the Government, and the way in which the Opposition used that fact to its own advantage, is proof positive that I am right in my. contention. The actual value of the bill has been seriously diminished, and I suggest that, even at this late stage, it would be wise for the Government to reconsider the matter, with a view to securing a more satisfactory result than that which I contemplate. The Government is entitled to the information that it desires to obtain, but economic stability and public confidence should be preserved.

Mr MULCAHY:
Lang

– I oppose this clause. There is no necessity for a register of the man-power of the country to induce the people to rise to the occasion in the event of their services being required for defence purposes. I am convinced that the wealthy interests would contribute nothing voluntarily to the defence of Australia. During the Great War, while the toilers made enormous voluntary sacrifices, the wealthy sections insisted on receiving their pound of flesh in the shape of full interest rates. I was surprised to hear the honorable member for New England (Mr. Thomp-

1.371

son) suggest that the Labour party might eventually use the information which would be obtained by a wealth census in order to impose a levy on capital. The Labour movement has never announced that it would impose a levy on wealth. The honorable member for New England remarked that a wealth census would be useful, but that only persons between the ages of 18 and 65 years should be called upon to supply returns ; but I point out that large numbers of people over the age of 65 years control an enormous amount of. wealth. Of course, one expects the honorable member to be in favour of excluding persons over the age of 65 years because, in this chamber, he represents wealthy interests. The returns contemplated would be useless as a record of the wealth of the community, and the Government should withdraw the bill. Why should youths between the ages of 18 and 21 years be . called upon to register,’ when they are not even given the right to vote? If they did not register, they could be cast into prison for three months, or fined £50. The same penalties would be provided for the man on the dole as for the wealthy. This is unfair. Any information required by the Government should be obtained by means of the general census that is held periodically.

Mr PROWSE:
-Forrest

.– I . regard this proposed stock-taking as absolutely necessary so that we may know just what resources we possess, and where they are owned. The amendment of the honorable member for Perth (Mr. Nairn) may or may not be necessary in actual fact, but it is certain that honorable members opposite have all along opposed the Government’s proposal for a national register on the ground that it did not include a register of wealth. To-day, like the honorable member for Perth, I received a communication from the Metropolitan Council of the Australian Labour party in Western Australia. It is as follows -

At a public meeting held under the auspices of the Metropolitan Council, Australian Labour party, in the Unity Theatre, Perth, on Friday, 2nd June, the following resolution was unanimously agreed to, and I was instructed to forward same to you: -

Believing that the national register proposed by the Menzies Government is thefirst step towards the conscriptionof manhood, this public meeting held under the auspices of the Metropolitan Council, Australian Labour party, Perth, Western Australia, strongly protests against and declares its determined opposition to such a register, contending that if a national register is necessary, it should include wealth as well as manhood.

Mr Ward:

– But they do not say that it is necessary.

Mr PROWSE:

– They say that if there is to be a register of man-power there should be a register of wealth also. Now the Government has conceded that point. So far as man-power is concerned, thp register will place the Government in possession of information which it can use in case of necessity, and the same will apply to the register of wealth.

Mr Ward:

– Yes, hut the Government will use the information in the one case, and not in the other.

Mr PROWSE:

-From the speeches of honorable members opposite, one might imagine that it was only members of the unions or of the poorer families in the community that would have to register. The fact is that the families of the wealthy will also have to register. Every male between the ages of 18 and 65, whether rich or poor, will have to register, and the Government now proposes to make a register of wealth also. The Labour party seems to be nonplussed now that the Government has accepted its proposal, and is trying to retreat from the position which it formerly took up. I cannot see that there is any reason why the clause should not be agreed to.

Mr LAZZARINI:
Werriwa

– I was astounded at the statements of . the honorable member for Barker (Mr. Archie Cameron). Two days ago, he was almost enthusiastic when he dwelt upon what unionists would probably have to suffer in time of war, but now, when it is proposed to make a register of wealth, and there is some suggestion that the wealthy interests also might be called upon to make sacrifices, his indignation knows no bounds. We are told that, if any action is taken to suggest a possible levy upon wealth, capital will become scared. Some one has said that the banks might close down, and that capital would leave the country. We have heard all of those stories before. As for the suggestion that wealth might leave the country, that is too stupid to be considered as an intelligent argument. The wealth of a country consists of its resources. Has any one ever heard of a coal mine being put on board a ship and sent away to another country, or of a factory being pulled down and sent abroad? Admittedly, some persons might try to take their cash resources away, but that can be easily prevented.

For my part, I would not be satisfied merely to ask the wealthy interests to disclose the extent of their resources; I should like to make them disclose how they obtained their wealth. I would make them tell how much watered stock had been issued, how much fictitious capital there was in their concerns upon which they were paying dividends. I would ask some pointed questions of those who sit on directorates, and draw princely fees for a couple of hours’ attendance a week. They are just hangers-on in industry. Theirs is the kind of wealth which the Government would be justified in confiscating almost entirely. I have said before that, if Mrs. Kelly were alive today, she would not allow Ned to play with some of the men of whom I have been speaking. He was a gentleman compared with them.

Mr Rankin:

– The honorable member is a bit hard on Theodore.

Mr LAZZARINI:

– I am not talking about decent trade, but of concerns which water their stock, and falsify their hooks in order to defraud the revenue of the country. I want to turn the prying eye not upon the affairs of honest people who are developing the resources of the country, and giving good service, but upon those who collect incomes which they do not earn. The honorable member for Barton (Mr. Lane) is always loud in the defence of those thieving interests. I suppose he developed that psychology when he was debt collecting from the unfortunate workers.

– I can only give information “ to the honorable member; he will have to depend on the Lord for the brains to understand it. As I said in my secondreading speech, it is tragic that the Government should seek to put its hands on the youth of this country in this way before they even exercise a vote and are still recognized under the laws as minors. Furthermore, if our young men do not comply with the provisions of this measure, they will be treated as criminals. Such legislation, I suggest, harkens _ back to pagan days when all kinds of pain and penalties were inflicted on human beings, and the common people were denied any say in government. It is most unjust that the youth of this country should be subjected to the pains and penalties prescribed in this measure before they even have a vote in the election of their national government. This bill is of vital importance to them ; under its provisions, the whole course of their lives may be changed.

.-This amendment is nothing more than a political makebelieve. We should have a wealth census, but i’t should be taken at the proper time, namely, when the general census is taken eighteen or twenty months hence. A census of wealth taken under the same conditions as the proposed census of man-power, that is from males of from 18 to 65 years of age, would he futile, whilst a complete recording would involve unnecessary extra, expenditure. So many returns are already expected from the people that every additional one adds a new pin-prick to harass the taxpayers. [Quorum formed.’]

Mr JENNINGS:
Watson

.- The Government has wisely accepted the amendment moved by the honorable member for Perth (Mr. Nairn). Although every year we have n practical census of all the wealth of Australia under the income tax law, company and land laws, and by local government bodies, there is no harm in obtaining particulars as to that property in a specific way in a national register. The Government has adopted the policy of “one in, all in”. I welcome the expressed intention of the

Government to exempt owners of small property from the compliance with the provisions of the amendment. I impress upon the Ministry the fact that not all property in Australia is liquid, in fact, that a large proportion of it is held against overdrafts in industry, and that disturbance of conditions might adversely affect employment. No government, whatever be its political allegiance, can be too careful in making use of any information gleaned from a census of property, but I have no doubt that this Government is sincere in its intention to exercise due caution. However the protection to those sending in these census forms lies in the fact that the contents are to be kept by the Taxation Department and cannot he divulged to any one outside that department.

Mr WARD:
East Sydney

.- The Minister for Defence (Mr. Street) said that there would be certain classifications which would be exempt, not from registration, but from service. He specified university students, and, by way of interjection, apprentices. Many apprentices have volunteered for service in the militia, and they seem to be able to undergo their training without interference to their careers. If this bill become law, will apprentices be withdrawn from the militia?

Mr STREET:

– There will be a combing out of the militia forces.

Mr WARD:

Mr BRENNAN:

– That is a reflection on the Chair. The committee does not yet know whether the regulation will apply to people who have no property as well as to those who have property.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member is out of order.

Mr BRENNAN:

– Apparently, there is to be no discussion on the schedule at this juncture, and I will reserve further remarks until the matter is specifically before the committee.

Amendment agreed to.

Question put -

That the clause, as amended, be agreed to.

The committee divided. (Chairman - Mr. Prowse.)

AYES: 29

NOES: 23

Majority . . . . 6

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 17 (Preparation and issue of forms).

Question put -

That the clause be agreed to.

The committee divided. (Chairman - Mr. Prowse.)

AYES: 30

NOES: 22

Majority . . 8

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in theaffirmative.

Clause 18 (Persons required to fill in and supply census forms to Commonwealth Statistician).

Mr NAIRN:
Perth

.- I move -

That at the end of the clause the following new sub-clauses be added: - “ (2.) Every person who owns property of a value not less than the prescribed value shall fill in and furnish to the Commonwealth Statistician in accordance with the regulations a form in accordance with the form in the First Schedule to this Act setting out the particulars specified in that form. “ (3:) Where a person to whom sub-section (.2.) of this section applies is absent from Australia the agent (if any) of that person in Australia shall for the purposes of this sectionbe deemed to be owner of the property of that person. “

The amendment which I have moved is In slightly different form from that previously circulated in my name, because it is now intended to insert in the schedule the form of the wealth registration return.

Mr FORDE:
Capricornia

.- This amendment which, I take it, is a redraft of the previous amendment circulated by the honorable member for Perth (Mr. Nairn) provides: “Every person who owns property of a value not less than the prescribed value…” I would like the Minister for Defence (Mr. Street) to indicate to the House what the Government thinks the prescribed value should he.

Mr Street:

– £500.

Mr FORDE:

– Will that be prescribed by regulation?

Mr Street:

– Yes.

Mr FORDE:

– When will that regulation be proclaimed?

Mr Street:

– Before the census is taken.

Mr FORDE:

– Can the Minister indicate what use the Government intends to make of the information to be compiled under the provisions of this clause?

Many contradictory statements have been made, and several honorable members have urged that the information should be put to some practical use.

Mr Street:

– As was the case with a similar census taken twenty years ago, a bulk surveywill be made and published.

Mr Beasley:

– Surely the Minister does not mean that information contained in the registration cards will be published?

Mr Street:

– No. Only the bulk survey.

Mr FORDE:

– After the result of the hulk survey has been published to what use does the Government anticipate it will put the information at its disposal? According to the revised schedule, twenty different questions will be submitted to persons called upon to supply information. They will be asked what cash they have in hand, what savings bank deposits, what money at current account in banks, &c, what fixed deposits in banks, building societies, &c.-

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Prowse).Order ! The honorable member should discuss the amendment.

Mr FORDE:

– The amendment contain.? the following provision: -

Every person who owns property of a value not less than the prescribed value shall fill in and furnish to the Commonwealth Statistician, in accordance with the regulations, a form in accordance with the form in the first schedule to this act setting out the particulars specified in that form.

I am merely referring to the particulars required to be supplied on the form mentioned in the amendment. The further particulars to be supplied, according to the schedule, are as follow : -

Government and other public securities, &c. :
Shares and debentures in companies.

Amounts owing -

Mortgages on land;.
Other amounts.

Value of stock-in-trade.

Value of live stock.

Value of plant, including machinery, tools, implements, vehicles, rolling stock, &c, used for trade purposes.

Value of furniture and fittings used for trade purposes.

Estimated value of goodwill of business. Value, of land owned - if sole owner -

Unimproved value -

Value of improvements (including buildings ) . lf not sole owner, value of your interests. Net value of interests in leases held -

From private persons;
From the Crown.

Value of share of net assets in partnership or syndicate undertakings.

Value of household furniture and effects and personal effects (including vehicles and plant used for other purposes than trade or occupation ) .

Mr BLACKBURN:

– But it will be of no value at all as a conspectus of wealth unless it brings in all property, and, if’ the Government wants a record of the private wealth of the community, it must bring in all property. For instance, a single man living with his parents might have no obligations at all, yet he might have an income of £500 a year. His wealth would, ‘to a large degree, be surplus wealth. On the other .hand a married man who is bringing up. a family might have partly paid off. a home. and furniture to a greater value than £500. If the Government wishes to secure an actual picture of the wealth of the community for the sake of having a record then.it will need to secure a record of the property of everybody. If it does not want to do that, but desires to secure merely a record of the resources of the community to be used in case of emergency, then if must make its minimum much higher. I repeat that this is only an attempt to make this unpalatable mea sure more acceptable to the people by giving them ideas that if a requisition is made it will affect not only labour and life, but also the wealth of the community. The Government repudiates the idea of taking wealth in any emergency no matter what that emergency might be; but no matter what the emergency might be, itproposes to - make a requisition on the lives of the people and to subject them to industrial and military conscription. Whatever finance it requires, it will raise by the old methods of taxation and loan, and we shall find, as happens in every war, that the poor will .emerge poorer and the wealthy will emerge wealthier.

Mr Menzies:

– How can we take wealth except by taking what it produces ? What does wealth amount to unless it produces something?

Mr BLACKBURN:

– Wealth is not disturbed by taxation and loans. People who were moderately wealthy at the start of the Great War amassed great wealth during the war. When you levy taxes you -merely take from the income of people, and you can take wealth without taxing the incomes of people. You can take property for which people have no need without taxing income. I am not saying that that should be done, but I suggest that should a crisis arise in which the people are to be called upon to serve or work, then it is of sufficient magnitude to entitle the Government to say that it will also take surplus wealth of the wealthy in order to use it for the benefit of the nation. However, in any war carried on by this Government, the workers and the young men .will be called upon to make the maximum sacrifice of life and labour, while wealth will .not be called upon to make any permanent sacrifice. The wealthy are merely to- contribute by way of .-taxes and loans, interest on which will be exempt from tax; the wealthy will not ‘.be required to make any permanent sacrifice. Therefore* I submit that this legislation is a . mere sham. The Minister for Defence (Mr. Street) has been quite frank with the committee. He has put it. quite clearly that honorable members cannot expect the Government to secure information upon which -it will hase a levy on wealth.

On the other hand, however, the Government is satisfied to take a census of wealth, but to take no notice of the information thus obtained. Because it consents to take a census of property, it believes that the young men of this community will more readily be persuaded to register themselves for military and industrial service when required. I am not attacking the Government for adopting that position. It gets itself into a difficulty where it is met with the argument that wealth, as well as life and labour, should be called upon to make sacrifices, and in reply it says that it is not going to exact any sacrifice for wealth commensurate with those which will be made by life and labour; and it adds, in effect, “ But if you are satisfied that we should have a register of wealth without taking any part of that wealth we shall go that far with you “.

Amendment agreed to.

Question put -

That the clause, as amended, he agreed to.

The committee divided. (The Chairman - Mr. Prowse.)

AYES: 30

NOES: 0

N oes . . . . 22

Majority . . 8

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 19-

The form which shall beused for the purpose of any census directed to be taken under this Act shall be in accordance with the form in the Schedule to this Act. with such modifications or additions (if any) as are prescribed.

Consequential amendments agreed to.

Mr. STREET (Corangamite - Minister for Defence [3.45]. - I move -

That the words “ with such modifications or additions ( if any ) as are prescribed “ be omitted.

The purpose of this amendment is to prevent the alteration of the schedule without the authority of Parliament.

Amendment agreed to.

Question put -

That the clause, as amended, be agreed to. (The Chairman - Mr. Prowse.)

Ayes . . . . 30

Noes . . . . 22

Majority 8

Question so resolved in the affirmative.’

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Postponed clause 14 -

The Board and the Commonwealth Statistician, and any officer of theCommonwealthwealth or a State to whom any information obtained under this Act is made known in accordance with this Act or the regulations, shall not, unless the Minister certifies that it is necessary in the public interest that the information contained in any form filled in in pursuance of this Act or the regulations should be divulged, divulge the contents of any such form, and then only to the Minister or to such other officer or officers as the Minister directs.

Mr STREET:
Minister for Defence · Corangamite · UAP

– I move -

That the following proviso be added - “ Provided that the contents of any such form relating to property shall not be divulged to the Minister, and the Minister shall not direct that its contents be divulged to any officer other than the Commissioner of Taxation “.

This amendment is in accordance with taxation laws and principles and the principle of it has been affirmed by this Parliament ever since its inception.

Mr BLACKBURN:
Bourke

.- Will the Minister for Defence (Mr. Street) agree to the deletion of the words “ or to such other officer or officers as the Minister directs” from this clause? The amendment just moved by the Minister is designed to prevent the Minister from directing that the contents of any census form relating to property shall not be divulged to any officer other than the Commissioner of Taxation. My suggested amendment would put information gained from the personal census on the same basis.

Mr Street:

– I cannot do that.

Mr BLACKBURN:

– Clause 14 pretends to protect the person who has made a personal return of information against the divulgence of that information, but it is open to the Minister to direct that such information may be divulged to such other officer or officers as he directs. The “ other officers “ may be State policemen or any other servants of a State, because another clause provides that State machinery may be employed in the administration of this proposed act. In asking for provision to prevent the disclosure of personal information to persons other than the Minister, I am seeking to have applied to persona] information the same principle as is to be applied to information relating to property. It is not that I mistrust either the present Minister or the present Ministry, but I assume the powers given under this bill can be used in bad faith as well . as good faith, and I should be unwilling to comply with any law which could be tised in bad faith. It is in our experience that powers under the War Census Act were used in bad faith. The confidential nature of returns was not respected and men were openly twitted with having made this or that statement. One man was twitted from the recruiting platform by Sir William Irvine that, although he was a slaughterman, he objected to taking human life and, therefore, was not prepared to enlist. Men were bullied about statements that they had made by persons who had no right, under the act, to know- the contents of the returns that they had made. I hope that the Attorney-General (Mr. Hughes) is listening. I should be sorry if he were not because he, probably more than anybody else, knows the truth of my assertion. We must assume that the powers under this hill will be used in bad faith, and this legislature should make it clear at any rate that the Minister is responsible for any disclosures that are made. No disclosures of personal information should be made; such information should be placed on the same footing as information about property.

Mr BEASLEY:
West Sydney

– The point made by the honorable member for Bourke (Mr, Blackburn) can be more forcibly expressed by my reading exactly what the clause contains. The clause reads-

The board and the Coin mon wealth statistician, and any officer of the Commonwealth or a State to whom any information obtained under this act is made known in accordance with this act or the regulations shall not, unless the Minister certifies that it is necessary in the public interest that the information contained in any form filled in in pursuance of this act or the regulations’ should be divulged, divulge the contents of any such form, and then only to the Minister or to such other officer or officers as the Minister directs.

The widest, interpretation that can be placed on this clause is that the Minister is to determine that information shall be made available in the public interest. The Minister himself should . have come forward with an amendment such as that suggested by the honorable member for Bourke. As the clause stands, it, would bc possible for information given by a man in compliance with the requirements of the act, in the belief that it was to be treated as confidential, to be divulged to any tribunal which may be set up and used against that man. We have no knowledge of the regulations which may be made under this act, and it is possible that a man could be convicted as the result of his own action in supplying personal information if that information were transmitted to military or other authorities. Honorable members had such experience of the working of the War Census Act as to warrant their being fearful of the provisions of this legislation. Personal information should be made known to nobody. Information relating to myself is as sacred to me as information relating to their properties would bc to those persons who have investments.

Mr Blackburn:

– Much more sacred.

Mr BEASLEY:

– Yes ; but at least I am entitled to argue on the basis of equality. We cannot value life as against property. If information be sacred in one case, it should, at. the very least, be equally sacred in another. This clause strengthens the arguments of those who feel that such information as is to be ought under this legislation should not he given, because no one can tell how far that information will travel before its force is silent. Men would be warranted in such circumstances in refusing to supply information or to make returns which may not be true in particulars. Men would he justified in taking either of those courses if my fears are justified, because they would never know whether or not the information that they had supplied would be the means of judgment being passed upon them either in civil courts or military tribunals. The Opposition must insist that the principle to be observed in respect of information about property should be made to .apply also to information about human lives.

Mr ROSEVEAR:
Dalley

..- Under this clause regulations may be prescribed which will make possible the disclosure to the Minister of any of the information contained in the forms furnished by registered persons. Parliament is not aware of the proposed wording of the contemplated regulations, and although it may subsequently have some power to disallow them, it cannot express a sound opinion on the subject at the moment, for the exact verbiage of them is not available. What wo do know is that the Minister will have access to con:fidential information, and that he may also disclose the information to other persons. It is obvious, therefore, that perhaps within 24 hours the information which our people have supplied in good faith on the understanding that it will lie regarded as confidential may be made available to every officer in « State or, for that matter, in the Commonwealth. No secrecy whatever can bc preserved in such circumstances. But while the Government is quite prepared to allow the details of the private lives of those who register to be published in this wholesale fashion, it does not propose to allow details contained in the wealth census returns to be made available. I strongly object to this differentiation. The private affairs of people are of far more importance to them than are their monetary affairs. The same principle should apply to the details on the returns supplied in connexion with the wealth census returns, and to those supplied in connexion with the man-power returns.

I shall, therefore, resist both the amend ment and the clause itself.

Question put -

That the proviso proposed to be added (Mr. Street’s amendment) be added.

The committee divided. (The Chairman - Mr. Prowse.;

AYES: 28

NOES: 21

Majority . . . . ‘ 7

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Question put -

That the clause, as amended, be agreed to.

The committee divided. (The Chairman - Mr. Prowse.)

AYES: 0

NOES: 0

Majority . . . . 7

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 20-

For the purpose of any inquiries or observations necessary for the proper carrying out of this act or the regulations, all persons shall, when required by the Commonwealth Statistician or by any officer authorized in that behalf in writing “by the Commonwealth Statistician, answer questions and produce documents within such time as the Commonwealth Statistician or the authorized officer thinks fit.

Mr BLACKBURN:
Bourke

.- The purpose of this clause is to confer inquisitorial power not only upon the Commonwealth Statistician, but also upon any officer nominated by him. There is no need for the inclusion of the clause in the bill. Although it is proposed to compel certain individuals to furnish returns, we surely should not contemplate allowing the Commonwealth Statistician or, for that matter, any State policeman to whom he may delegate the power, to make inquiries in regard to particular cases. It will be obvious to honorable members that if a police officer clothed with the power sought to be conferred by this clause visits the home of a citizen and asks questions, the individual concerned will not feel that he is in a position to refuse to furnish the desired information. A householder may be confronted by an officer, other than a policeman, and may not be aware of the power of interrogation possessed by that officer. To a great degree provisions such as this take away from the people the protection given by having a statutory form unalterable except by Parliament. If an officer is sent to a house to question an occupant then it is likely that that occupant will supply whatever information is desired without knowing whether or not the officer has been authorized to ask such questions. An ordinary working man confronted by a policeman who produces his authority under this bill, is not going to say, “ You have no right to ask me these questions “. I submit that the Government should rely upon the form. If anybody makes untrue statements in the form then a prosecution may be initiated and the prescribed penalty imposed. The Government should not supplement, that form by the inquisitorial procedure provided in this clause. The spirit, of this provision is quite contrary to that conciliatory spirit which has actuated the Minister in making the concessions which he has granted so far. Statements by the Minister have been to the effect that Parliament only would have the right to authorize the asking of questions Tinder this legislation. If an officer to whom power is delegated by the National Register Board is to have the authority to question a person who has made a return, or who has not made a return, then a great deal of the protection given by the Minister’s amendments is taken away. I submit that this clause should not be agreed to.

Mr CLARK:
Darling

.- Like the honorable member for Bourke (Mr. Blackburn) I have strong objection to this clause, the effect of which will he to permit an officer of the Crown to enter premises and interrogate occupants - a power that this Parliament should not be prepared to give, particularly in view of the fact that authority is given elsewhere in the bill for the National Register

Board to delegate its authority to any officer. The Labour party knows from experience that authority is very often given to persons who subsequently are found to be incompetent and unworthy of that authority. Apart from that aspect, however, I am strongly of the opinion that no officer should be given power to enter homes and submit the occupants to questioning, or to force them to produce documents. This clause gives to an officer power to ask questions which are not provided for in the hill. The Minister for Defence (Mr. Street) . has seen fit to amend earlier clauses in order to satisfy objections raised by. honorable members, and he gave an assurance that the schedule would not be altered or added to unless Parliament were consulted. I understood that the questions to be asked were to be confined to those appearing in the schedule, but this clause obviously gives to officers the power to seek information far and above anything contemplated in this measure. As the honorable member for Bourke pointed out, this authority might be invested in police officers. Honorable members know from their reading of court proceedings how often authority is abused by such people. In the course of their ordinary duties, police officers are bound by law to inform persons whom they interrogate, that they are not bound to answer questions, and that they are entitled to have a legal adviser in their presence when the .questions are asked. Unfortunately, there is no such provision in this bill, and officers might endeavour to intimidate people in order to obtain information not provided for in the schedule. The officers themselves might not know that they are not entitled to ask certain questions. Again there will probably be some officers who, knowing that they have not the requisite power, will seek by intimidating methods to go further than this legislation permits. This legislation is supposed to be availed of, not at a time when all is cool and calm, but at a time of national crisis, when the people are usually not in a normal state of mind. Advantage might be taken of the atmosphere of hysteria to bully people into giving information, possibly for purposes entirely outside the scope of this bill. Honorable members on this side are not prepared to permit of the inclusion in clause 20 of power which has been taken out of other clauses. The Minister for Defence should assure the committee that he is prepared to accept the suggestion that the part of the clause ,to which objection is being taken, should be eliminated in order to allay the fears . which honorable members have expressed. * Quorum formed. *

Mr STREET:
Minister for Defence · Corangamite · UAP

– This clause provides that the Commonwealth Statistician or any officer, authorized by the statistician may ask questions and require the production of documents for the purpose of properly carrying out the provisions of this bill. The reason for that is that in some cases- it may be necessary to ensure that returns are filled in correctly, and the assistance of officers, may be called upon to ensure that tha t is done. I draw attention to the Census and Statistics Act, section 19 of which states -

Vor the purpose of making any inquiries or observations necessary for the proper carrying out of this act, the Statistician or any officer authorized in writing by him may at any time during working hours, enter any factory, mine, workshop or place where persons are employed and may inspect any part of it, and all plant mid machinery used in connexion with it, and may make such inquiries as are prescribed or allowed by the regulations.

Mr Beasley:

– There can be no comparison of a census act to a military act.

Mr STREET:

For the purpose of any inquiries or observations necessary for the proper -carrying out of this act or the regulations, all persons shall, when required by the Commonwealth’ Statistician or by any officer authorized in that behalf in writing by the Com moil wealth Statistician, answer questions and produce documents within such times as the Commonwealth Statistician or the authorized officer thinks fit. ‘

Apparently, there would be no limit to the’ questions that might be asked, or the documents that might be demanded. If the person answering questions could take as a guide the matters set down in black and white in the schedule, he would know where he stood. Any officer might be authorized to ask innumerable questions on any subject, and this measure would contain nothing to guide the individual who was to be questioned as to his rights, or to guide the officer as to the sort of questions he would be entitled to ask.

Mr STREET:
Minister for Defence · Corangamite · UAP

– I agree, to some extent, with the honorable member for Dalley (Mr. Rosevear) but I think that his, fears are somewhat far-fetched. However, I move -

That the words “ or the regulations “ be omitted.

Tlie CHAIRMAN. - “Will the honorable member be seated.

Motion (by Mr. Mahoney) agreed to -

That the honorable member for Denison be further heard.

Mr MAHONEY:

– At no time would I be a party to holding up a measure required for the immediate defence of Australia, but I object, to legislation which will interfere with the liberty of the subject. That is the basis of our freedom, of which we boast so proudly. We want to be assured that the officers who take this census are men who can be trusted. [ record my protest against the proposal, and I hope that the Minister, in the interests of national unity, will withdraw the ‘measure altogether.

Mr BLACKBURN:
Bourke

– The Minister for Defence (Mr. Street), and the Prime Minister (Mr. Menzies), by interjection, defended the clause on the ground that it is a reproduction of a section in the Census and Statistics Act, under which, they say, the officers will have the same power as it is proposed to give them under this measure. The act which they have mentioned provides for the periodical taking of a census, and a periodical collection of statistics. In connexion with the census, the collector may, if invited to do so by the occupier, help with the filling in of the form, and he may ask questions relating to matters set out in the form. It is a limited provision. I am referring to section 14 of the act, which is as follows: -

Every person shall, to the best of his knowledge and belief, answer all questions asked him by a collector necessary to obtain any information required to be filled up and supplied in the house-holder’s schedule.

Part IV. of the Census and Statistics Act deals with the collection of statistics. The obligation on a person to furnish statistics is very different from the obligation which will be imposed on persons under this proposed legislation. Under the Census and Statistics Act the citizen is obliged to furnish information upon which statements, reports and other publications may be made regarding certain matters. Under this proposed legislation, the obligation- is to make statements from which certain records may be made regarding man-power, &c, but also upon which the individual may become subject to certain liabilities that he does not want. The person who furnishes statistics regarding population, employment, exports and imports, &c, is not imposing on himself any ulterior obligation. Once he has made the return, he is -finished with the matter. No personal consequences can follow to him from making the statement. Then, -in section 19 of the Census and Statistics Act, the Statistician, or any. officer appointed by him, may enter a workshop, mine or place of employment to inspect and make inquiries. No obligation is imposed in that section to produce documents, but even if it were, the next point of distinction is this: the officer who makes those inquiries under the Census and Statistics Act is directed by the act to take an oath of secrecy. That requirement is omitted in this bill, because it is clear that the officer making the inquiries is not to keep the information secret. He may be directed to disclose it to the Minister, or to any officer whom the Minister appoints. Therefore, the Census and Statistics Act does not afford a precedent. . .

– If a person does not fill in his form accurately in the first place, how is he to be compelled to do it afterwards? Is he to be bullied into doing so ?

Mr BRENNAN:

– The person interrogating him would no doubt have his own methods, but the unfortunate citizen who was being questioned would have no means at hand to satisfy himself as to the genuineness of the official who waited upon him, nor would he be able to determine whether the questions asked fell within the category of proper questions or not. Moreover, no consideration of time, place, or circumstance, seems to apply to the kind of pillory that the Government is proposing to establish. The Minister seemed only imperfectly to realize that our objections would not be met by .the mere excision of the words, “ or the regulations “. We object to the clause as a whole.

The ‘ TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. Nairn). - The honorable gentleman’s time has expired. * Quorum formed.]*

Mr POLLARD:
Ballarat

.- This bill is repugnant, not because the Opposition says so, but because a very great body of people outside of Parliament have declared it to be so. The clause now under consideration is one of the most objectionable in the bill. It provides that the Commonwealth Statistician, who resides in Canberra, may authorize in writing, and appoint, any person anywhere within the Commonwealth to require individuals to answer questions and to produce documents. What facilities has the Commonwealth Statistician to judge as to the fitness of individuals elsewhere to carry out this delicate duty? To do this work effectively a person must, of necessity, be of good character, good conduct, good address, considerable capacity, and good approach. He must not be an individual who, for political or private reasons, may assume some bias in respect of the person he has to examine. The Commonwealth Statistician, residing in Canberra, cannot, therefore, be expected to be responsible for the fitness of individuals in remote parts of Australia to do this work in the way that it ought to be done. It may happen that the person appointed to do this work in a little village happens to be a member of the Women’s National League or the National Federation. Imagine me having to submit to ali examination on the matters that will be at issue by a member of a hostile political organization ! It is provided that persons appointed to do this work by the Common wealth .Statistician must be permanent or temporary employees of the Commonwealth Government or a State government. It will be apparent, therefore, that an inspector of noxious weeds, or a rate collector, might be appointed. But it is also obvious that by the adoption of the simple expedient of inserting an appropriate notice in the Commonwealth Gazette or a State Gazette, a local bank manager, a secretary of a shire council, a police magistrate, a collector for the Electricity Commission, or a telephone lineman, could be detailed to carry out these inquisitions.

I submit that such persons should not be authorized to require their fellow citizens to answer personal’ questions and to produce private documents. Some people in this community have good reasons for suspecting the good faith and integrity of other persons who live in their neighbourhood and it would be repugnant in the extreme for them to have to submit to interrogation by such individuals. In any case, it may well happen that the interrogation would prove abortive and ‘ futile. But, let us suppose that, arising out of one of these private investigations, a court case occurred. Would the magistrate be expected to accept as conclusive the word of one witness against that of another witness, for I suppose it is not suggested that these investigations shall be carried out in the presence of witnesses? Unless that is the case a magistrate might be expected to say that the word of one man should . be accepted in preference to that of. another. That is not a proper situation to permit to arise. How can it be said, except on the balance of evidence from a number of witnesses, that one man is telling the truth and another man is not telling it? Corroboration of one kind or another is essential. In all the circumstances, I hope that the committee will reject the clause. We have no assurance that competent persons will be appointed to discharge these onerous and objectionable duties. Moreover, who is to decide whether the questions asked are proper or improper? How can the person being questioned satisfy himself on that point? How is he to know whether the documents which he is requested to produce should he produced? Is a man, if requested to do so, to produce his birth certificate, or his marriage certificate, if he be married, or the title deeds to his property? Apparently a man may be required to produce any and every document in his possession, and for that reason I regard the power to be conferred by this measure as far too wide. There is no guarantee that officers selected to carry out the inquisitorial work of this National Register Board will be acceptable to the witnesses, or persons who are to be examined. Imagine, for instance, authority being conferred upon me to make inquiries into the affairs of, say, for instance, the Minister for External Affairs (Sir Henry Gullett). How would that honorable gentleman like me to ask him the questions which are provided for in this bill and perhaps others which are not specified? Should he refuse to answer these questions he would be arraigned before a court, and possibly the position would arise in which I, as the authorized officer, would give evidence that the honorable gentleman had said certain things or had refused to produce documents. Sir Henry Gullett on the other hand might deny the evidence given by me. ‘That, I suggest, is a most vivid illustration of the situations which may arise under this legislation. The word of one man is as good as the word of another. That the rights of the people should be safeguarded not only by providing that the officer carrying out the inquisition must be acceptable to . the person who is to be registered, but .also by allowing the person required to answer questions to insist upon the presence of an adviser. In my opinion, people would be justified in resisting an officer who is repugnant, to them or whom they may not like. Why should I be called upon to produce all documents which are in my possession? I might be asked who my grandmothers, grandfathers, and great-grandfathers were, and it might be revealed that one of my ancestors was a pirate out of Penzance. Such arbitrary inquisition will not be acceptable to the people of Australia, because it is not in accord with the Australian conception of democracy. I am satisfied from information which has been conveyed to me that in this opinion, I om backed up by. a vast, majority of the people. Consequently T am opposed to the clause.

Mr MAKIN:
Hindmarsh

.- I take very strong exception to this clause. A portion of it which honorable members should certainly not be willing to support is that under which powers may he delegated to “ any officer “, because these powers are not specifically defined. Clause 20 provides that the inquiries which may be made are not confined solely to those specified in the schedule to the bill, but are also to be fixed by regulation.

Mr Street:

– The honorable member was not here when I moved an amendment to omit that.

Mr MAKIN:

– Unfortunately I was unavoidably absent, but I am glad to hear that the difficulty which I foresaw has been obviated. This clause still permits the delegation to officers of power not fully specified, and serious injustice may be caused by those officers acting in a way which may greatly prejudice the position of citizens who are questioned under the provisions of this bill. I strongly urge the Minister. to review this clause. It is quite evident that even he has serious doubt as to the wisdom of conferring this wide power, and must realize the seriousness of situations which may arise.

Mr Street:

– I cannot admit that.

Mr MAKIN:

– I suggest that the Minister should look into this phase of the matter and, if he likes, consult with his advisers to see whether or not the fears entertained by the Opposition are wellfounded. He must recognize that’ there are portions of this clause which make possible situations which may alienate the feelings of a large section of the community. The liberties which we possess and the freedom which we enjoy have been won by hard effort and bitter suffering, and we should not be justified in permitting the Government to adopt arbitrary power of this character. This legislation provides for the delegation of wide powers not merely to ordinary departmental officials but also to other persons unspecified. I protest strongly against the action of the Government in refusing to reconsider or withdraw this clause, because I feel it subverts the right of freedom to the citizen, and is likely to place upon officials, not clearly defined, very grave responsibilities. Endless litigation may be caused. The clause is very badly drafted, and does not give a clear interpretation of the Government’s intention. -Vo parliament should be prepared to sanction this delegation of power, and I feel that the Minister is rather unfair in expecting this committee to agree to such a proposal. I hope that, even at thi3 late moment, he will be prepared to give further, consideration to this matter. Is he fully satisfied that the conditions which prompted him to accept amendments in other parts of this bill do not also apply to this clause? Action on the part of officers to whom power to administer “this clause is delegated may go beyond the legitimate enforcement of the law. It is a dangerous clause and the Minister is not justified in asking the committee to accept it. * Quorum formed.]*

Mr ROSEVEAR:
Dalley

.- There are three ways under which the Government could obtain the desired information. The first is by means of the questionnaire set out in the schedule; the second is by questions asked in accordance with regulations; and the third is the reprehensible method suggested in this clause of allowing any officer authorized by the Minister to ask an unlimited number of unspecified questions. Whether members are in favour of the bill or not, there might be some thing to be said in favour of allowing the questions set out in the schedule. The Minister asked the committee to amend the previous clause by deleting the power giving to some authority the right to extend the questions beyond those mentioned in the schedule. Of his own volition, he submitted an amendment which had the effect of limiting the number of questions to be asked to those provided, for in the schedule, by the deletion of the words “ or the regulations “. Now he asks us to accept a clause giving to an officer power to ask unlimited questions, and to demand the production of documents. There is nothing in the bill that would limit the right of this officer to ask any questions he might desire. Why should the committee limit the right of the Executive to frame questions by regulations, and yet give to some individual power to frame questions of his own? lt would be entirely illogical to give to a servant of the Crown, a right that would not be given to the Parliament or the Executive.

The bill contains no reference to the standing of the various officers who would operate under this measure in the various States and in the territories of the Commonwealth. As the honorable member for Ballarat (Mr. Pollard) pointed out, the officer who would be made a grand inquisitor, and could ask questions that even the Executive would be prevented from asking, might be a garbage remover it Darwin. If these officers were men of standing in the community, one would still object to the granting to them of even limited unspecified powers, but, in the territories of the Commonwealth, particularly, powers would be given to certain unspecified officers of unknown ability and standing in the community which would be denied to the Parliament, and even to the Cabinet itself. Why should these persons be given the right to pry into the intimate personal affairs of the people? Clause 19 would at least, limit the number and nature of the questions that might be asked; but, by the clause under the consideration of the committee, unspecified questions would be permitted, and no protection would be afforded to individuals who might become the victims of inquisition. The people are entitled to protection under this measure.

Question put -

That the Chairman do report progress and ask leave to sit again.

The committee divided. (The Chairman - Mr. Prowse.)

AYES: 28

NOES: 22

Majority . . . . 6

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Progress reported.

Question put-:

That the House will, at a later hour this day, again resolve itself into the said committee.

The House divided. (Mr. Speaker - Hon. G. j. Bell.)

AYES: 29

NOES: 22

Majority . . . . 7

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Declaration of Urgency.

Mr MENZIES:
Prime Minister · Kooyong · UAP

– I declare that the National Registration Bill 1939 is an urgent bill.

Question put -

That the National Registration Bill 1939 be considered an urgent bill.

The House divided. (Mr.speaker - Hon. G. j. Bell.)

AYES: 29

NOES: 22

Majority . . 7

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Allotment of Time.

Motion (by Mr. Menzies) proposed -

That the time allotted in connexion with the hill be as follows: -

for the completion of the remainder of the committee stage until 8.15 o’clock p.m. this day.

for the remaining stages until 8.20 o’clock p.m. this day.

Several honorable members rising to address theHouse -

Motion (by Mr. Holt) put -

That the question be now put.

The House divided. (Mr. Speaker - Hon. G. j. Bell.)

AYES: 29

NOES: 22

Majority . . 7

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Original question put.

The House divided. (Mr. Speaker - Hon. G. j. Bell.)

AYES: 29

NOES: 22

Majority 7

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Sitting suspended from 6.25 to 7.50 p.m.

In committee: Consideration resumed.

Clause 20. (Power of officers to ask questions and require production of documents).

Amendment agreed to.

Question put -

That the clause, as amended, be agreed to.

The committee divided. (The Chairman- - Mr. Prowse.)

AYES: 27

NOES: 0

Majority . . . . 6

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Motion (by Mr. Street) - by leave - agreed to -

That the remainder of the bill be taken as a whole.

Mr BLACKBURN:
Bourke

.- I understand that we are to discuss the clauses and the amendments together, hut that we are to vote on them separately. I desire to direct the attention of the Minister for Defence (Mr. Street) to clause 24, which specifies offences and penalties. What strikes me is the curious inequity of the penalties that are imposed. The same penalties are imposed upon a person who makes no statement at all or a statement which is false in some detail as upon the person who makes a dishonest statement.

Mr Street:

– The maximum penalty is the same.

Mr BLACKBURN:

– A magistrate can impose the maximum penalty of £50 upon a person who fails to make a return or upon a person who makes an incompletereturn, and the maximum penalty is no higher for the person who forges the return or dishonestly makes a return.

Mr Spender:

– Yes, but that never happens.

Mr BLACKBURN:

– The penalties imposed by the Census and Statistics Act for offences of this kind are interesting as a matter of comparison, because that act prescribes that -

Any person who forges …. any form or document under this act shall be guilty of an indictable offence, and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three years.

This is section 25 of the Census and Statistics Act. Contrast with this the maximum penalty of a £5 fine without imprisonment imposed upon a person knowingly making a false statistical return. This is section 26 of the. same act. Both these offences are here grouped together and punishable by a £50 fine and three months’ imprisonment. An even stranger provision in this bill is this: A boy of under 21 years of age and over18 years of age who fails to notify a change of address will be liable to a fine of £50 or imprisonment or both. Under the Electoral Act the adult who fails to notify his change of address is liable for the first offence to a penalty of 10s. and for the second a penalty of £2. Such discrimination between adults and boys is absurd, and I hope that the Minister will reconsider this matter before the bill is sent to the Senate. I direct the attention of the committee to the fact that in the War Census Act of 1915 the power to authorize prosecutions was reserved to the Minister, whereas in this bill a prosecution can be launched with the consent of the Minister or a person authorized by the Minister. I see no reason for the departure from the scheme in the 1915 act. As the honorable member for Melbourne Ports (Mr. Holloway) has pointed out, the provision in the 1915 act was a son of safeguard.

Now I come to clause 27. This empowers the Government to make regulations not inconsistent with the act and necessary or convenient to be described. The word “ convenient “ is of the greatest significance. It means in effect that, so long as the Ministry does not go outside the powers conferred by the act, it can make any regulation it likes. I can cite an opinion by Mr. Justice Isaacs, afterwards Chief Justice, to that effect.

Mr Spender:

– That opinion was not followed in subsequent cases.

Mr BLACKBURN:

– When the Minister is reminded of the opinion he says it has not been followed ‘by other judges.

Mr Spender:

– I still say that.

Mr BLACKBURN:

– That is only setting one opinion against another. That does not mean that the opinion of Mr. Justice Isaacs is wrong. In fact, he went with the majority in the case to which I refer. Whatever other judges may think, whatever the Minister says, no one can fail to attach great weight to the opinion of one of the greatest lawyers of the English-speaking world. In 1928, Mr. Justice Isaacs, in the case ofGibson v. Mitchell, said-

Those words in that collocation mean necessary or convenient from the standpoint of ad ministration. Primarily they signify what the Governor-General may consider necessary or convenient, and no court can overrule that unless utterly beyond the bounds of reason and so outside the power.

Mr Street:

– That is consistent with the act.

Mr BLACKBURN:

– It has to be consistent with the act. It is within the power of the Governor-General to consider a thing necessary or convenient unless it is expressly forbidden by the act or is unreasonable in the opinion of a court. That is the effect of the opinion expressed by Mr. Justice Isaacs with the support of the other judges in the case cited.

Mr Curtin:

– If the Minister is right, then the words are unnecessary.

Mr BLACKBURN:

-To justify the provision inserted in the bill, the Minister calls to his aid an act that collects information and is not involved in penalties to the person. The powers that the Government is taking to make regulations are too wide, even though we have succeeded to some extent in cutting them down.

The next matter to which I refer, is the schedule. I submit that it is undesirable that a person who is rendering a return should be called upon to state the name, business address and business of his preent employer. For what reason can he be required to furnish that information but to enable the Commonwealth Government to get at him through his employer? The only interest that the Commonwealth Government can have in knowing that John Smith is now employed in Alcocks butcher’s shop in Union-street, Ascot Vale, is that it can exert pressure on his employer. That kind of thing was done in 1915 when men were compelled to enlist by pressure put on their employers. An. employer might have said : “ If you go to the war, I will keep your job, but if you do not go, I cannot keep you. Pressure is being exerted oh me. If you do not go -to. the war, I shall have to dismiss you orotherwise I shall lose my business connexions.” I cannot understand why the Government should excite suspicion in this way. People are being asked to state the names, business addresses, and business of their present employers. It should be sufficient to state the class of employment. If they are to be- called up for industrial work or under section 59, the fact that they can give their names and a description of their employment should be enough.

Mr RIORDAN:
Kennedy

..- I wish to refer to clause 26 which is the most objectionable provision in the bill, and that is saying a lot when we consider the others. This clause throws the onus of proof on to the individual in the event of his being prosecuted. Paragraph a states -

The averment of the prosecutor …. shall be deemed to be proved in the absence of proof to tlie contrary.

In other words, a person who is called upon to furnish a return will have to prove that he sent in one, .and he is guilty until he proves himself innocent. That is contrary to the legal practices followed for prosecutions throughout the British Empire. Such a provision is found only on rare occasions. I do not know where the Minister found it. I can see what is going to happen. A return sent in by a person, is mislaid through the inefficiency or incompetency of the department, or some other cause. What will happen? He will receive a note asking him to explain the omission to comply with the act. He will be prosecuted, and will have to attend a court and give evidence and prove that he. sent in a return. The prosecution Will not have to prove that the defendant did not send in a return.

Mr Spender:

– In the absence of paragraph b of clause 26, how could you prove negligence ?

Mr RIORDAN:

Mr JOLLY:

– My right to speak is not lost on that account.

Motion (by Mr. Ward) negatived -

That the honorable member be not further heard.

Mr JOLLY:

– Item 11 requires the person concerned to give the estimated value of the goodwill of business. This is likely to lead to considerable confusion, because goodwill is a fictitious, and not a tangible asset. No good purpose will be served by including this item in a return intended to show the amount of the country’s wealth.

Mr CURTIN:
Leader of the Opposition · Fremantle

– I ask the Minister (Mr. Street) to omit from the schedule, which appears as an annexure to the bill, item 8, requiring an employed person filling in the return to state the names, business address and business of present employer, if any. The purpose of the register is to ascertain from the individual his qualification to .serve the Commonwealth in a state of emergency. That qualification, no doubt, will have relation to his training in industry and his physical fitness, and whether or not he is capable of being usefully employed in some sphere of activity associated with the defence of the Commonwealth. Information as to whether he is working for this firm or that firm is, I submit, beside the point. For example, John Jones is a carpenter. It may be important from the point of view of the Government to know whether John Jones is a carpenter or a plumber. If John Jones returns information to the effect that he is a carpenter, and gives his address where communications may reach him, it is no business of the Commonwealth Government to know the name of his present employer. If John Jones ceases to work for that particular employer- the value of the return is lost. There is no obligation on the adult who is more than 21 years of age to forward to the department any intimation of his change of employment. That obligation will be imposed only on youths between the ages of 18 and 21 years. Apparently, the Electoral Act is regarded as providing sufficient means of discovering the whereabouts of an adult. Information gleaned under that legislation f tfr- nishes particulars of the occupations of . electors, but it does not give the names of their employers. No such information as that has ever been sought. ‘ That has no bearing on the question whether Jones, the plumber or bricklayer, is available for service as an individual. If the department desires to communicate with Jones, it is its business to do so; but the supposition here is that the department may communicate with him through his employer, and ‘bring in the employer as a person connected with the relationship of Jones to his country in connexion with the register. I submit to the Minister that the information would be irrelevant to the purposes of the register, and, therefore, could only add a further suspicious feature of the register. Those of us who have recollections of what occurred many years ago have reason to believe that the purpose of ascertaining the name of the employer of Jones is that the Government in some way may approach Jones through his employer, or -bring pressure on the employer in regard to Jones’ relationship to the register. All of the suggestions about the conscription threat which lurks in the background of this measure have been increased by the fact that the ordinary workman would have to give the name of his employer. The employer would not have to give the names of his employees, nor would he have to give those of the shareholders in his company. This is to be an individual and personal register, And the only persons connected with it should be the citizens who fill in their names and give their addresses and occupations. The question whether a citizen works for the Broken Hill Proprietary Company Limited or the Australian Glass Manufacturers Company Limited, ought not to be raised. I ask the Minister either to accept my suggestion, or, at least, tell the committee why he will not do so.

Mr STREET:
Minister for Defence · Cor angamite · UAP

– I am somewhat impressedby the arguments advanced by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Curtin), and I can give an undertaking at this stage that at least the inclusion of the name and business address of the employer will be reconsidered, and that the schedule may be altered in that regard when the bill reaches the Senate . I should like to have time to consider that matter, but the honorable member’s arguments have impressed me as having some substance in them.

Mr Green:

– What about the difference in the penalties?

Mr STREET:

– The argument advanced in that regard has no substance, because, in each case, the maximum penalty is provided.

Mr.Jolly. - Will the Minister answer the question that I asked about goodwill ? That is a fictitious value. The information would be useless and would involve unnecessary work.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The time allotted for the consideration of the remainder of the committee stage of the bill has expired.

Question put -

That the remainder of the hill, and the circulated amendments of the Government, be agreed to, and that the bill be reported with amendments.

The committee divided. (The Chairman - Mr. Prowse.)

AYES: 28

NOES: 21

Majority … . . 7

AYES

NOES

Question so resolvedin the affirmative.

Clause 21 -

The board, with the consent of the Minister, may, from time to time, require any person included among the persons or classes of persons of whom a census has been taken under this act to till in and furnish to the Commonwealth Statistician a form, in accordance with the schedule to this act, with such modifications or additions (if any) as are prescribed, setting out the particulars specified in that form as at the date the requirement is made. Clause 24 - (1.) Any person who -

Circulated amendments of the Government -

Clause 21 -

Omit all words after “persons” (second occurring), insert “required to furnish particulars for the purpose of any census taken under this act to fill in and furnish to the Commonwealth Statistician a form or forms in accordance with one or both of the forma in the schedules to this act setting out the particulars specified in the form or forme as at the date the requirement is made “.

Clause 22 - (Consequential amendments made) .

Clause 24 -

Omit paragraph(b), insert the following paragraph : - “ (b) is included among the persons or classes of persons required to furnish particulars for the purpose of any census taken under this act and who fail’s to transmit to the Commonwealth Statistician within the time specified in the proclamation by which the census is directed to be taken, a form filled in in accordance with the instructions contained in or accompanying it; “.

Insert the following new schedule: -

Bill reported with amendments.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The time allotted for the consideration of the remaining stages of the bill has expired.

Question -

That the report he adopted and the bill be nowread a third time - put. The House divided. (Mr. Speaker - Hon. G. J. Bell.)

AYES: 29

NOES: 21

Majority 8

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a third time.

page 1668

PAPERS

The following papers were pre sented : -

Commonwealth Public Service Act - Regulations amended - Statutory Rules 1939, No. 46 (Parliamentary Officers).

Northern Territory Acceptance Act and Northern Territory (Administration) Act-

Ordinances of 1939-

No. 9 - Mining.

No. 10 - Buffaloes Protection.

No. 11 - Darwin Rates.

No. 12 - Birds Protection.

Marine Ordinance - Regulations.

House adjourned at 8.26 p.m.

page 1668

ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

The following answers to questions were circulated : -

Standardization of. Railway Gauges

Mr Drakeford:
MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA

d asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

Is it a fact that the Government is considering making a detailed investigation into the economic and defence aspects of the standardization of railway gauges?
If so, will he also have consideration given to the aspect of the work relieving the extreme severity of unemployment now prevailing?

Mr Menzies:
UAP

– The conference of Commonwealth and State Ministers held in 1936 decided that before any decision was arrived at with respect to the standardization of railway gauges, a further inquiry should he made by a competent body, having special reference to the economic and defence aspects. The same conference also decided that a conference of Commonwealth and State Ministers for Transport should be convened, and the Government subsequently decided to refer to the Ministers for Transport the question of the personnel of the body to conduct the inquiry on the standardization of railway gauges. It has not yet been found practicable to hold the conference of Ministers for Transport, but when it is held the question of the employment value of the work of standardization of gauges will be taken into consideration.

Dairying Industry

Mr Forde:

e asked the Minister repre senting the Minister for Commerce, upon notice -

What was the value of butter consumed in Australia in (a) 1927-28, and (b) 1937-38?
What was the value of butter exported in (a) 1927-28, and (b) 1937-38?
What was the total value of the production of butter in (a) 1927-28, and (b) 1937-38?
What wasthe total value of the production of dairy produce generally for each of the years mentioned?

Sir Frederick Stewart:
UAP

– The Minister for Commerce has supplied the following answers : - 1. (a) £14,947,360; (6) £15,973,895. 2. (a) £0,905,933; (b) £10,781,124. 3. (a) £21,852,177; (6) £26,755,052.

Total value of dairy production 1927-28, £33,344,335; 1937-38, £38,663,056.

Note. - The items included under this head ure - Milk, consumed as such, butter, cheese, condensed and concentrated milk, &c.

Wool, and Wheat Prices

Mr Green:

n asked the Minister representing the Minister for Commerce, upon notice -

What was the average price of wool per lb. as disclosed by the wool sales of 1937-38, and for the five months ended 31st May, 1939, for (o) greasy, and (6) scoured?
What was the average price of wheat a bushel for the same periods at Sydney, Williamstown, Port Adelaide and Fremantle?

Sir Frederick Stewart:
UAP

– The Minister for Commerce has supplied the following answers: -

The average price of wool per lb. for the 1937-38 season was-Greasy, 12.51d. per lb.; scoured, 21.83d. per lb. The prices realized for the five months ended the 31st May, 1939, were -
1. The average of the published quotations of millers’ and shippers’ limits for farmers’ lots of wheat at Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide and Fremantle during the year 1937-38, and the five months ending the 31st May, 1939, were as follows: -

Mr Forde:

asked the Minister representing the Minister for Commerce, upon notice -

What is the total number of sheep in (a) each State, and (6) Australia?
What is the annual value of the wool industry in Australia?
What was the average price of wool pellb. in (a.) 1929, and (6) 1939 to date?
What was the average cost of production of wool per lb. in (a) 1929, and (6) 1939 to date?

Sir Frederick Stewart:
UAP

– The Minister for Commerce has supplied the following answers : - 1. (a) New South Wales, 51,563,181; Victoria, 18,863,467; Queensland, 22,497,970; South Australia, 8,904,402; Western Australia, 8,732,076; Tasmania, 2,520,950; Northern Territory, 26,856; Australian Capital Territory 263,610. (6) 113,372,518.

Figures for New South Wales, Victoria and Australian Capital Territory relate to the 31st March, 1938. For the other States the figures relate to the 31st December, 1937.

Average for five seasons 1932-33 to 1936- 37, £52,171,000. Estimated value 1937-38, £52,000,000. 3. (a) 1928-29 season, 16.44d. per lb. greasy, (6) 1938-39 .season to the 31st May, 10.48d. per lb. greasy.
In 1932 the Commonwealth Wool Inquiry Committee estimated the average cost of production of wool on the station to be 8£d. per lb. exclusive of all interest. Interest at 5 per cent, on capital invested was estimated at 4Jd. per lb., of which the average interest liability on borrowed capital was 1 3/4d. per lb. Rail freight and other marketing costs were estimated to amount to Id. per lb. Total costs to point of sale 14d. per lb.

Cattle Industry

Mr Forde:

e asked the Minister representing the Minister for Commerce, upon notice -

What is the total number of cattle in (a) each State, and (b) Australia?
What was the annual value of the cattle industry in (a) 1929, and (6) 1939?
What percentage of cattle is (a) killed for export, and (6) killed for local consumption?
What was the average price obtained for beef (a) exported, and (6) sold on the Australian market, in 1929 and in 1939?
How many persons are employed in the cattle industry in each State and the whole of Australia?
How many persons are employed in (a) meatworks, and (‘&) retail butchering establishments in Australia?

Sir Frederick Stewart:
UAP

– The Minister for Commerce has supplied the following answers: - 1. (a) New South Wales, 3,019,581; Victoria, 1,880,429; Queensland, 5,959,165; South

Australia, 324,163; Western Australia, 740,241; Tasmania, 254,812; Northern Territory, 891,640; Australian Capital Territory, 8,325. (6) 13,078,356. Figures for New South Wales, Victoria and the Australian Capital Territory relate to the 31st March, 1938. Figures for other States relate to the 31st December, 1937. 2. (a) 1927-28, ?30,463,964; 1937-38, ?37,515,024. 3. (a) 19 per cent., (6) 81 per cent. 4. (a) 1929, 5id. per lb.; 1939, (January to May) 4jd. per lb. (6) Melbourne wholesale prices, 1929, 5Jd. per lb; 1939, 4id. per lb.

The census of 1933 showed the following persons employed in grazing other than those who were mainly engaged in sheep grazing: - New South Wales, 5,102; Victoria, 1,109,; Queensland, 8,456; South Australia, 211; Western Australia, 437; Tasmania, 108; Australian Capital Territory, 1 1 ; Northern Territory, 798; Australia, 10,232. 0. (a) At census of 1933, 9,601 (Abattoirs, 5,331, meat freezing and preserving works, 4,270). (6) At census of 1933, 27.992.

Overseas Loan

Mr Curtin:

n asked the Treasurer, upon notice -

What is the total amount of interest that will be paid on the ?6,000,000 overseas loan by (a) 1961, and (6) 1964?
What is the amount of exchange (at the present rate) that will be paid on these interest payments ?

Mr Menzies:
UAP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follows : - 1. (a) ?5,160,000; (6) ?5,880,000. 2. (a) ?1,309,350; (6) ?1,492,050.

As against this, it should be remembered that the amount of the loan, viz., ?6,000,000 sterling, is the equivalent of ?7,500,000 Australian currency

National Insurance

Mr Archie Cameron:

n asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -

Is the National Health and Pensions Insurance Act 1938, capable of execution, and, if so, by what means?

Mr. Archie Cameron also asked the Prime Minister, upon notice le the National Health and Pensions Insurance Act 1938,. incapable of execution, and, if so, for what reasons?

Mr Menzies:
UAP

– In reply to both questions I may state that the reasons which have prompted the postponement of the operations of the act will be explained by the Minister for Social Services in the course of debate on matters now on the notice-paper.

Sydney-Rabaul Air-Mail Service

Mr Green:

n asked the Minister for Civil Aviation, upon notice -

ls it a fact that the airways service of W. R. Carpenter and Company Limited, which has held the pioneer air mail contract from Sydney to Rabaul since May, 1938, is being subsidized, and duplicated from Sydney to Salamaua, or, alternatively, from Sydney to Townsville ?
If so, what is (a) the reason for the duplication, (6) the name of the new company, and (o) the amount paid foi the new contract?
’ How long has the contract of W. R. . Carpenter and Company Limited to run?

Mr Fairbairn:
Minister for Civil Aviation · FLINDERS, VICTORIA · UAP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follows : -

W. R. Carpenter and Company Limited is running one subsidized service each week between Sydney and Rabaul and recently began a second unsubsidized service each week. 2. (a) The company considers that the traffic warrants a second service; (6) there is no ‘new company; (c) there is no new contract.
The contract of W. R. Carpenter and Company Limited has approximately four years to run.

Supply of Oil Fuel to Pearlers

Mr Perkins:
UAP

s. - On the 8th June, the honorable member for Kalgoorlie (Mr. Green) asked the following questions, upon notice -

. What was the amount of oil fuel supplied from the Government naval oil tanks or other source at Darwin to (a) Japanese pearling sampans, and (6) Australian pearling luggers for each of the past three years, and what was the price charged, a gallon or by weight, as the case may be?
Is it obligatory under international law to supply foreign boats with fuel, whilst navigating from one port to another?
If so, does the obligation rest upon the authorities at Darwin to supply fuel to foreign boats permanently engaged in fishing for pearl shell, &c., off the Northern Territory coast?

The Minister for the Interior has now supplied the following information : - 1. (a) Japanese pearling vessels - Year ended the 30th June, 1937, 28,876 gallons; year ended the 30th June, 1938, 37,815 gal- ions; 1st July, 1938, to date. 51,782 gallons.

Australian pearling vessels - Year ended the 30th June, 1937, 57,329 gallons ; year ended the 30th June, 1938, 50,018 gallons; 1st July, 1938, to date, 32,348 gallons. Price a gallon - Prior to the 1st March, 1938, Australian boats, 4d. plus 4 per cent., Japanese boats, 4d. plus 10 per cent.; from the 1st March, 1938, both Australian and Japanese boats, 4.72d. 2 and 3. It is not the practice to express an opinion on matters of law in reply to questions.

Tobacco Industry

Mr JOHN LAWSON:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

n. - On the 8th June tho honorable member for Indi (Mr. McEwen) asked the following questions, upon notice -

What wau the total stock of Australian tobacco leaf in maturation on the 31st December, 1938?
What was the total stock of imported leaf at that date?
What was the amount of Australian leaf used during the six months ended the 31st December, 1938!
What was the amount of imported leaf used during that period!
How much Australian leaf waa used blended with imported leaf during the abovementioned period?
1. How much Australian. leaf was used unblended during the same period?

I am now able to furnish the honorable member with the following information : -

13,582,084 lb.
28,388,338 lb.
2,888,854 lb.
10.878,316 lb.
1,699,289 lb.
1,219,565 lb.

All the above figured ure on the basis of unstemmed tobacco leaf.

Cotton Industry

Mr JOHN LAWSON:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

n. - On the 8th June the honorable member for Capricornia (Mr. Forde) asked the following questions, upon notice -

How many cotton-growers are there in A ustralia f
How many workers get employment in the industry!
What was the total .value of cotton produced in the last season?
What are Australia’s requirements of raw cotton ?
What quantity was (a) imported, and (6) produced locally, for the year 1938, or the latest period available?
How many persons are employed in cotton-spinning and weaving mills in Australia!
How many persons are (a) directly, and (b) indirectly, dependent on the cotton industry!

T am now able to furnish the honorable member with the following information : -

. 2,700 for 1939 season.
3,270 for 1939 season.
1938 season, £220,000 (including £95,000 for Commonwealth bounty).
Now approximately 18,000,000 lb. per annum.
Year 1938- (a) 13,357591 lb., (5) 4.773,936 lb.
“Approximately 2,600. 7. (o) See answers 1, 2 and 6. (ft) The information is not available.

Canberra: Telephone Service

Mr Harrison:
UAP

n. - On the 8th June, the honorable member for Watson (Mr. jennings) asked the following questions, upon notice -

Is it a fact that on page 3 of the Canberra telephone directory it is stated that single rails at fixed times may be arranged, and that such calls may only be made when Parliament is not in session?
If so, will he inquire why the fixed time call service is not available to subscribers throughout the year!
Will he make inquiries as to whether in several instances subscribers have had to wait for periods up to 45 minutes to secure telephone connexion with Sydney?
Does the Government propose to take any action to remove the cause of such delays, especially during Parliamentary sessions!

I am now in a position to furnish the honorable member with the following answers to his inquiries: -

Page 3 of the Canberra telephone directory states that single trunk line calls at fixed times may be arranged.
Owing to pressure of business during ths evenings when Parliament is in session, it is not practicable to accept fixed time calls at Canberra for connexion between 7 p.m. and 10 p.m., otherwise undue preference would be afforded and ordinary calls would be seriously delayed. When Parliament is not sitting’ this restriction is unnecessary and is not applied.
During the busiest hours of the day, and after 9 p.m., when the cheap night rates operate, delays to calls exceeding 45 minutes sometimes occur.
Yes. The works programme for 1939-40 includes the provision of three additional trunk line channels between Canberra and Sydney.

Defence: Oil STORAGE

Mr Conelan:
GRIFFITH, QUEENSLAND

asked the Minister for Defence, upon notice -

Is it a fact that the Defence Department has decided to establish a number of oil storage tanks in Brisbane!
If so, how many tanks- will be erected, and where will they be situated!

Mr Street:
UAP

t. - The storage of oil at Brisbane has been decided upon, but investigations are proceeding as to the method of storage, and until these investigations are completed the site will not he determined. The quantity to he stored cannot he disclosed.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 9 June 1939, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1939/19390609_reps_15_160/>.

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House of Representatives 9 June 1939

QUESTION

WOOL INDUSTRY

Sir EARLE PAGE:COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr MENZIES:Prime Minister · KOOYONG, VICTORIA · UAP

Sir EARLE PAGE:

Mr MENZIES:

QUESTION

DARWIN INDUSTRIAL DISPUTE

Mr MAKIN:HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

Mr HUGHES:Attorney-General · NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

PRINTING COMMITTEE

QUESTION

ANGLO-RUSSIAN NEGOTIATIONS

Mr BEASLEY:WEST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

Sir HENRY GULLETT:Minister for External Affairs · HENTY, VICTORIA · UAP

QUESTION

GIPPSLAND OIL-FIELD

Mr PATERSON:GIPPSLAND, VICTORIA

Mr PERKINS:Minister without portfolio administering External Territories · EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

QUESTION

PHOENIX OIL-FROM-COAL PLANT

Mr JAMES:HUNTER, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr CASEY:Minister for Supply and Development · CORIO, VICTORIA · UAP

QUESTION

APPLICATIONS TO TARIFF BOARD

Mr McCALL:MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr JOHN LAWSON:MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

QUESTION

DOLOMITE DEPOSITS IN TASMANIA

Mr MAHONEY:DENISON, TASMANIA

Mr CASEY:UAP

QUESTION

TARIFF BOARD’S REPORTS

Mr WHITE:BALACLAVA, VICTORIA

Mr JOHN LAWSON:MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

QUESTION

PUBLIC SERVICE ACT

Mr ROSEVEAR:DALLEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr MENZIES:UAP

QUESTION

AUSTRALASIAN PERFORMING RIGHT ASSOCIATION

Mr ANTHONY:RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr MENZIES:UAP

Mr JENNINGS:WATSON, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr HARRISON:Minister for Repatriation · WENTWORTH, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

QUESTION

MANUFACTURE OF MOTORCARS

Mr LANE:BARTON, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr MENZIES:UAP

QUESTION

INVALID AND OLD-AGE PENSIONS

Mr ROSEVEAR:

Sir FREDERICK STEWART:Minister for Health · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

QUESTION

WORKS PROGRAMME

Mr JOLLY:LILLEY, QUEENSLAND

Mr MENZIES:UAP

SPECIAL ADJOURNMENT

QUESTION

NATIONAL INSURANCE

Mr JAMES:

QUESTION

NEW GUINEA

Mr GREEN:KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr PERKINS:UAP

QUESTION

INTERNATIONAL LABOUR CONVENTIONS

Mr HOLLOWAY:MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · FLP; ALP from 1936

Sir HENRY GULLETT:UAP

QUESTION

HONOURS LIST

Mr McCALL:

Mr MENZIES:UAP

QUESTION

AUSTRALIAN BROADCASTING COMMISSION

Mr BEASLEY:

Mr HARRISON:UAP

NATIONAL REGISTRATION BILL 1939

Mr HOLLOWAY:MELBOURNE, VICTORIA

House of Representatives
9 June 1939

Sir EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr MENZIES:
Prime Minister · KOOYONG, VICTORIA · UAP

Mr MAKIN:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

Mr HUGHES:
Attorney-General · NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

Mr BEASLEY:
WEST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

Sir HENRY GULLETT:
Minister for External Affairs · HENTY, VICTORIA · UAP

Mr PATERSON:
GIPPSLAND, VICTORIA

Mr PERKINS:
Minister without portfolio administering External Territories · EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

Mr JAMES:
HUNTER, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr CASEY:
Minister for Supply and Development · CORIO, VICTORIA · UAP

Mr McCALL:
MARTIN, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr JOHN LAWSON:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

Mr MAHONEY:
DENISON, TASMANIA

Mr CASEY:
UAP

Mr WHITE:
BALACLAVA, VICTORIA

Mr JOHN LAWSON:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

Mr ROSEVEAR:
DALLEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr MENZIES:
UAP

Mr ANTHONY:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr MENZIES:
UAP

Mr JENNINGS:
WATSON, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr HARRISON:
Minister for Repatriation · WENTWORTH, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

Mr LANE:
BARTON, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr MENZIES:
UAP

Sir FREDERICK STEWART:
Minister for Health · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · UAP

Mr JOLLY:
LILLEY, QUEENSLAND

Mr MENZIES:
UAP

Mr GREEN:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr PERKINS:
UAP

Mr HOLLOWAY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · FLP; ALP from 1936

Sir HENRY GULLETT:
UAP

Mr MENZIES:
UAP

Mr HARRISON:
UAP

Mr HOLLOWAY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA

Mr NAIRN:
Perth

Mr STREET:
Minister for Defence · CORANGAMITE, VICTORIA · UAP

Mr THOMPSON:
New England

Mr MAHONEY:
Denison

Mr MAHONEY:
DENISON, TASMANIA · FLP; ALP from 1936

Mr STREET:
Minister for Defence · Corangamite · UAP

Dr MALONEY:
Melbourne

Mr THOMPSON:
New England

Mr SHEEHAN:
Cook

Mr GREGORY:
Swan

Mr MARTENS:
Herbert

Mr ARCHIE CAMERON:
Barker

Mr MULCAHY:
Lang

Mr PROWSE:
-Forrest

Mr LAZZARINI:
Werriwa