10th Parliament · 1st Session
Mr. Speaker (Hon. Sir Littleton Groom) took the chair at 11 a.m., and read prayers.
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CityWest, Melbourne; South Melbourne.
.- (By leave.) - I move -
That, in accordance with the provisions of the Commonwealth Public Works Committee Act 1913-1921, the following proposed work he referred to the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Public Works for investigation and report, viz.: -
Establishment of an Automatic Telephone Exchange at City West, Melbourne, and the conversion of South Melbourne Automatic Exchange to six-figure working.
In regard to the City West Exchange, the proposal is to erect a building on a site which is Commonwealth property at the rear of the existing central manual telephone exchange, Lonsdale-street, Melbourne, and install therein an automatic telephone switching system having an initial equipment for 10,000 subscribers’ lines and capable of extension in the proposed building to 18,000 lines, thus enabling requirements in the proposed automatic exchange area to be met for approximately twelve years after the proposed date of opening.
It is proposed to add an additional storey to the existing automatic telephone exchange building in Bank-street, South Melbourne, and to replace a portion of the existing five-figure temporary main exchange apparatus by equipment necessary to convert the exchange to a sixfigure branch exchange at City . West..
The two proposals are estimated to cost £621,683. I lay on the table a copy of the plans and specifications.
Question resolved in the affirmative.
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Motion (by Mr. Bruce)(by leave) agreed to - .
That leave of absence for one month be given to the honorable member for Balaclava (Mr. Watt) on the ground of urgent private business.
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– Has the attention of the Prime Minister been drawn to the statement of the right honorable member for North Sydney (Mr. Hughes) at the Nationalist Conference in Sydney yesterday to the effect that an arrangement had been made for Italians to enter this country at the rate of 300 a month for an unknown period, and his further remark that he was tired of hearing the reply, when this matter was ventilated in the House, that any interference by the Commonwealth Government might cause international trouble? Having regard to the large number of our own citizens who are unemployed, will the Prime Minister take immediate action, if not to suspend the provisions of the Immigration Act entirely, at least to fix a quota ?
Mr.BRUCE. - My attention has been drawn to a condensed report of statements said to have been made yesterday by the right honorable member for North Sydney. The assertion that an arrangement has been made by the Commonwealth and Italian Governments for the admission into this country of a specified number of migrants from Italy is totally untrue. As I informed the House in the course of the debate on a recent censure motion, the Italian Government has taken certain action to restrict the number of its nationals proceeding overseas, and so far as Australia is concerned has limited such migrants to relatives of Italians already settled in this country. Those relatives are almost exclusively women. Because of this, the Government believes that the influx of Italians, which last year increased considerably, will be reduced, and, therefore, it would be undesirable to take definite action, which unquestionably could have no other effect than to damage Australia in the eyes of the world. I understand of course what actuates honorable members of the Opposition in pursuing the subject, and making statements which render more difficult and embarrassing the maintenance of that much greater and wider policy, the preservation of a White Australia. With due respect to honorable members opposite, I do not think their statements are taken very seriously by other countries or do much damage to Australia; far greater weight attaches to the utterances of an ex-Prime Minister, and statements such as were made by the right honorable member for North Sydney can have only a very disastrous effect.
– Has the attention of the Prime Minister been drawn to a paragraph published in the Adelaide Register of Tuesday last to the effect that at Glossop, a soldiers’ settlement on the Murray River. a Greek stabbed four Jugo-Slavs, one of whom is in a critical condition? Does the right honorable gentleman consider such migrants desirable additions to our population?
– I have not seen the paragraph to which the honorable member has referred, but I am sure that Le does not suggest that I, or any other person in Australia, favours the admission of foreign migrants of undesirable character. ‘
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– Have tenders been invited for the proposed mail service between the mainland and Tasmania? If not, when -will they be called, and where may the terms of. contract be seen ?
– The forms are now complete, and tenders will be called throughout Australia almost immediately.
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– In view of the approach of winter and the reduction of the hours of daylight, will the Minister for Home and Territories urge the Federal Capital Commission to extend the new street lights from the Molonglo Bridge as far as the Hotel Acton and Beauchamp House? The latter establishment is occupied by ladies employed in connexion with various services in Canberra, and they should not be expected to walk long distances from their offices in the dark.
– The new lights will be put on at a very early date.
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– I ask the Minister for Health whether the Royal Commission appointed to investigate the causes of the Bundaberg serum tragedy has yet completed its investigations? If so, has the Government received its report, and when will it be available to honorable members?
– The report has not yet been submitted .to the Government.
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– As many members of this Parliament propose to visit Victoria during the Easter holidays, travelling by road via the South Coast of New South Wales, can the Minister for Home and Territories furnish the House with any information regarding the state of the intervening rivers?
– The latest information in my possession is that following soaking rains, with prospects of their continuance, the flooding of East Gippsland rivers is inevitable, and warnings to that effect have been issued. Some flooding of the rivers along the South Coast of New South Wales also is likely.
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– A few weeks ago I forwarded to the Treasurer a letter from the secretary of the Ballarat Chamber of Manufactures and Commerce protesting against the excessive land values assessed there and the appointment of Mr. Lambert as a member of the committee to hear the appeals. What action, if any, has been taken by the Treasurer?
– The representations made by the honorable member are being carefully considered, and a reply will be sent to him in due course.
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– In October last I made a motion in this House in regard to the aborigines of North Australia, and in November the Prime Minister stated that the Government of Queensland would be asked to make available the services of an officer qualified to conduct an inquiry into the conditions of the aborigines. A few weeks ago he informed me in answer to a question that no reply had been received from the Queensland Government. If he is still awaiting a reply, and if it is not received within the next few days, will he endeavour to appoint some other competent person to conduct an investigation ?
– Within the last two days the Queensland Government has advised me that it is prepared to make available the services of a senior official of the State Aborigines Department.
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– When a new diamond field is discovered in South Africa, the government retains for the State a half interest in it. If the discovery is on State lands the other half interest is given to the discoverer ; if it is on private land, the discoverer and the owner of the land get a quarter each. As any discovery of oil in Australia would be much more valuable that discoveries of either gold or diamonds,, will the Minister obtain from the Union Government full information in regard to that feature of its mining laws with a view to its adoption by the Commonwealth?
– I shall endeavour to get from the South African Government full information on the subject, and when that is received I shall give consideration to the honorable member’s suggestion.
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– Early in the session an announcement appeared in the press that the Easter recess of Parliament would continue until the 18th April. As it takes members from Western Australia ten days to proceed to their homes and return, I ask the Prime Minister if he will give an undertaking that Parliament will resume not later than the 18th April, so that the legislative programme may be proceeded with as early as possible to avoid a winter session at Canberra ?
– The intention is that the House shall adjourn until a date to. be fixed by Mr. Speaker, which date will be communicated to honorable members. I may state, however, that the Government proposes that Parliament shall reassemble on the 18th April or, at the latest, on the 24th of next month. As the 25th April is Anzac Day it is undesirable that Parliament should reassemble on that day. Therefore, if the date for re-assembling is not the 18th April it will be the 24th, so as to enable members to participate in the Anzac Day celebrations.
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– I ask the Minister representing the Minister for Trade and Customs what was the amount of sandalwood oil imported into Australia” during the three financial years 1924-25, 1925-26 and 1926-27?
– Through the courtesy of the honorable member, who advised me that he intended to. ask this question, I have been able to obtain the figures. The value of the imports of sandalwood oil for the three years mentioned were- 1924-25, £7’7l; 1925-26, £1,396; and 1926-27, £786.
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– I direct the attention of the Minister for Markets to the serious, position in which the potato growers of Victoria find themselves owing to the low prices ruling for their produce, and I ask if he will consider the advisability of taking some action to assist them. In many parts of Queensland, Western Australia and New South Wales potatoes are selling at almost prohibitive prices. The Victorian potato growers believe that some of their difficulties would be overcome if the department could advise a scheme for the better marketing of potatoes in other States?
– I remind the honorable member that under the Constitution the powers of the Commonwealth and therefore of any department being administered under it, are limited, so far as trade matters are concerned, to overseas and interstate movements. It has no authority whatever to interfere with trade within the borders of the States; that is a function of. the State legislatures. But if those engaged in the potato industry approach me I shall be only too glad to render them what assistance may be within my power.
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– I ask the Minister for Markets if he intends to take action to establish a pool to assist orchardists to dispose of their surplus stocks of apples, which they are unable to sell owing to the congested state of the local markets?
– Last year the Government gave the . apple growers an opportunity to decide by vote whether they desired the establishment of a pool or an export marketing organization for fresh fruit on lines similar to those adopted by a number of other industries. The apple growers as a whole rejected the proposal, though growers in certain of the States approved of it. Until those engaged in the industry approach me I do not propose to take the action suggested by the honorable member.
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– I ask the Minister for Home and Territories whether, in view of the fact that members of the Federal Parliament are required to spend so much of their time in Canberra and therefore are keenly interested in the result of the proposed licensing poll, the Government proposes to enrol them in the list of voters, and also if the Minister can inform the House when the referendum will be held?
– The matters mentioned by the honorable member are still under consideration.
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Unemployment in South Australia.
– I am aware that it is not the practice of Ministers to indicate government policy in answer to questions, but I trust that, on this occasion, the Prime Minister will be able to give more than the stereotyped reply. Last year the Government introduced a bill for the construction of the railway fromRed Hill to Port Augusta, and, anticipating that work would be available, many men are now in the northern part of South Australia waiting for construction to be commenced. Is it the intention of the Government to proceed with that measure at an early date, so that work may be commenced in the winter months to relieve the unemployment difficulty in South Australia?
– I agree with the honorable member that it is not usual for Ministers to make a statement of government policy in answer to questions, but in view of the facts mentioned - the honorable member has stated that there is a large number of men in the northern district of South Australia waiting for the work to be commenced - it is only fair that I should state that, even if the bill is passed at an early date, it will not be possible, for a considerable time, to make the financial” provision necessary for construction work to be undertaken. In the circumstances, it is useless for men to wait about in the hope of the work being started in the immediate future.
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– I direct the attention of the right honorable the Prime Minister to the following statement which appears in the Canberra Times of to-day: -
Sydney, Wednesday. The Acting Premier, Mr. Buttenshaw, said to-day that Parliament had decided to refer to the Parliamentary Committee on Public Works the question of the construction of a railway from Bourke to a point on the Queensland border. If a favorable report was received, the Government would provide the money to carry out the work.
In view of the statement, made by Mr. Buttenshaw, will the Government give earnest consideration to the suggestion which I made some months ago, that a conference be convened of representatives of the Commonwealth and the Governments of New South Wales and Queensland to consider the construction of a railway from Bourke to Camooweal, and thence to the Barkly Tableland, with a view to arriving at an agreement as to the best method of financing and carrying out that big national undertaking ‘i
– The land to be traversed by the railway in question is in New South Wales and Queensland, and therefore the proposal is one for the consideration of the Governments of those States. If they desire the assistance of the Commonwealth upon grounds which they may regard as national grounds, they should approach the Commonwealth in the matter. The Government will then be prepared to consider it.
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– I ask the Prime Minister if his attention has been drawn to the following cabled statement by Mr. Mackenzie King, the Prime Minister of Canada, outlining the attitude of that Dominion towards the Anglo-Egyptian Treaty:-
Recently the British Government had asked if Canada wished to participate in the treaty being negotiated with Egypt. The Canadian Government had declined.
I should like to know if the Commonwealth Government has been consulted by the British Government in regard to the Anglo-Egyptian Treaty, and if so is the Prime Minister prepared to give the House information on the subject ?
– Last week I stated that the Government had been consulted by the British Government with regard to the negotiations between the British and Egyptian Governments for a treaty to settle the outstanding difficulties between the two countries. For the information of honorable members I also laid on the table of the House a copy of the draft agreement which had been prepared and the cables which had been exchanged on the subject.
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Canberra Footpaths - Place Names
– Owing to the enormous expenditure involved in the construction of wide concrete footpaths in Canberra, which is a city of magnificent distances, I should like to know if the Minister for Home and Territories will consult with the Federal Capital Commission with a view to providing better footpaths for the convenience of residents in the outlying portions of the city ; also if he will consider if it is not possible to construct a cheaper type of footpath, but one which would last from fifteen to twenty years, so as to avoid unnecessarily heavy expenditure?
– I shall consult with the Federal Capital Commission and see if some definite decision can be arrived at on the lines indicated by the honorable member.
– I ask the Prime Minister if it is the intention of the Government to give honorable members an opportunity to discuss the proposed new names for areas and streets in the Federal Capital?
– When I tabled the proposals submitted by the special committee appointed for the purpose of suggesting names for areas and streets, I informed the House that the Government considered it desirable that a period of six months should elapse before finality was reached. This course was adopted to give honorable members and the public generally an opportunity to form an opinion as to the desirability or otherwise of the names that have been suggested. I am not sure if the six months period has elapsed yet, but, if not, it will expire soon. The Government will then bring down an ordinance, and then will give honorable members an opportunity to express their views on the matter.
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– Has finality been reached yet with regard to the holding of the proposed Australian Exhibition in Sydney?
– Proposals for the holding of the exhibition have now, to all intents and purposes, been settled. It was my intention, if time had permitted today, to introduce and move the second reading of a bill to deal with that matter, but not to proceed with it until after the recess. I am afraid that time will not allow of this being done, but I can inform the House that an agreement has been arrived at with the Government of New South Wales under which that Government will make available a site in Centennial Park and also share in the expenditure. My reply, therefore, is that finality has been reached, a bill will be introduced almost immediately, and the New South Wales Government has agreed to provide a site in Centennial Park.
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– Some months ago Mr. Gepp, the chairman of the Development and Migration Commission, visited Brisbane and conferred with the Premier of Queensland with regard to tie inclusion of the Dawson Valley water conservation and land settlement scheme in the list of works to be carried out under the terms of the loan of £34,000,000 from Great Britain. Is the Prime Minister in a position to indicate if the Government will approve of that undertaking?
MrBRUCE. - A full investigation of the project has been made by the Development and Migration Commission, which has advised that it should not be proceeded with immediately. I understand that that view is acceptable to the Government of Queensland. I do not desire to make any further statement on the matter because I am not quite clear what publicity has been given to it by the State Government.
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– It was stated yesterday that 1,041 returned soldiers will have to wait until the beginning of- the new financial year to obtain advances for the purpose of purchasing homes for themselves under the War Service Homes Act. As many complaints have been made by returned soldier organizations about the difficulty returned men experience in obtaining advances, I ask the Prime Minister to take the necessary steps to make funds available forthwith to enable these applications to be approved?
– The Government has every desire to assist returned soldiers to obtain houses as early as possible, but the Commonwealth and State Governments have many and heavy commitments. Owing to the difficulty of obtaining loan moneys, an arrangement has been made between the various Governments that the moneys raised shall be apportioned on a definite basis, and it is not possible to depart from that arrangement.
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– Will the Minister representing the Minister for Trade and Customs request the Tariff Board to give full and immediate consideration to ways and means of assisting the . Queensland cotton-growing industry? On account of heavy importations of cotton piece goods into Australia, the local manufacturers are unable to purchase further raw cotton this season. Will the Minister see that the case submitted by the Queensland Cotton Pool Board for increased protection to this industry will be considered by the Tariff Board at the earliest opportunity, and that action is taken by the Government without delay to protect the manufacturers, and enable them to buy all the raw cotton that is available here?
– I shall at once have the matter brought under the notice of the Minister concerned.
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asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -
– I understand that you, Mr. Speaker, are prepared to answer these, questions.
– In reply to the honorable member’s questions, it is a fact that Mr. Mortimer Menpes in 1911 presented to the Commonwealth, “ as a thank offering to his native land,” his collection of reproductions of the great masters in the various galleries of Europe. The pictures are in the custody and under the control of the Library Committee. The collection comprises 38 pictures, and was exhibited in the Queen’s Hall, Parliament House, Melbourne. It is the policy of the Library Committee to ‘ lend to approved institutions the pictures under its control. This has been done on several occasions. The committee intends to display the collection , at Canberra as soon as suitable accommodation for it is available. Responsible bodies, such as . public art galleries, State Governments, or municipal authorities, which desire the loan of the pictures, must undertake full responsibility for them, and meet all insurance, freight, and other transport charges. Applications for the loan of pictures under the control of the committee should be made to myself, as the chairman of it.
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asked the Minister for Home and Territories, upon notice -
– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow: -
asked the Minister representing the Minister for Defence, upon notice -
Is it a fact that H.M.A.S. Sydney has completed her services as a cruiser; if so, is it intended to use this vessel in the future?
– H.M.A.S. Sydney is to be paid off into reserve early in May to enable the ship’s company to proceed to England to commission H.M.A.S. Canberra. The vessel will be retained in reserve for the present, but can be brought forward for service in an emergency.
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asked the PostmasterGeneral, upon notice -
– The answers to the honorable member’s- questions are as follow : -
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Albert Hall Projector - Trial by Jury - Hotels.
asked the Minister for Home and Territories, upon notice -
– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow: -
asked the Minister for Home and Territories, upon notice -
Is it a fact, as stated in the press, that an Ordinance recently passed by the Federal Capital Commission will prevent trial by jury in. all civil cases in the Federal Territory?
– On the 27th January, 1927, an Ordinance was passed providing that the trial of any civil action, cause, suit, or other proceeding in any district court of the State of New South Wales while exercising jurisdiction in the Federal Capital Territory, shall he by a judge of that court without a jury.
asked the Minister for Home and Territories, upon notice -
– I shall look into the matters mentioned by the honorable member, and advise him in regard thereto as early as possible.
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asked the Minister for Home and Territories, upon notice -
In order to remove present dissatisfaction and misunderstanding which is apparent in certain States, will he undertake, as early as possible, to place the control of the Australian Forestry School on a more democratic basis, by giving each State Forestry Department, whose future officers comprise the students of the school, adequate representation on a properly constituted governing council or board?
– I shall give the matter consideration.
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asked the Minister for Works and Railways, upon notice -
With reference to the statement setting out the costs of boards and commissions, submitted to the House by the Prime Minister on Wednesday last, in which the expenditure by the River Murray Commission is shown as £228,668, will the Minister inform the House whether this figure includes expenditure on works, or whether it represents the cost of administration only?
– The figures quoted in the statement referred to viz., £228,668, represents the Commonwealth Government’s contribution during the year ended’ 30th June, 1927, towards the cost of works carried out in pursuance of the River Murray Agreement, and, administration. The administrative expenses of the -Commission during the year 1926-27 amounted to £796, the total of such expenditure from the inception (1917) to the 30th June, 1927, being £6,450, onefourth of which was borne by the Commonwealth Government. This amount includes all expenses incurred by the Commission in the supervision of the works carried out by the three constructing authorities, expenditure on which at the 30th June last totalled £5,105,000.
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civicrightsof Officers - Temporary Employees.
asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -
– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -
asked the Prime Minister, upon notice -
Under the Public Service regulations governing temporary employment, what are the factors which make for exemption from such regulations ?
– Section 8 of the Public Service Act deals with exemptions from the provisions of the Act. The classes of employees exempted, apart from those specifically mentioned in section 8, are : -
The classes of employees who have been exempted are shown in Gazette’ No. 57 of 26th May, 1927.
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Architect’s Fees
– On 23rd March the honorable member for Melbourne (Dr. Maloney) asked the following question: -
From information now furnished by the Commonwealth Bank I am in a position to give the following replies : -
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Katherine to Daly Waters Railway - Darwin Oil Tank
– On 27th instant the honorable member for the Northern Territory (Mr. Nelson) asked me the following questions, on notice : -
In view of the increasing numbers of unemployed in North Australia, due to the closing down of the railway construction, can the Minister indicate when it is anticipated that the construction of the Katherine to Daly Waters railway will be resumed?
In view of the fact that numbers of men who, in an endeavour to keep faith with the Government in carrying out contracts or piecework by mutual arrangement with the Government constructing engineer on the Katherine to Daly Waters railway, were involved in heavy commitments for which they were not allowed to recoup themselves, will the Minister state if it is the intention of the Government to reimburse those contractors to the extent at least of the moneys lost by them?
My reply to both questions is - I am hopeful of being able to arrange for the resumption of work in the new financial year. Any plant or tools purchased by the pieceworkers could then be used on the work being resumed.
asked the Minister for Works and Railways, upon notice -
– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow: -
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– On 23rd March, the honorable member for Henty (Mr. Gullett) asked me the following questions : -
I am now in a position to advise the honorable member as follows: -
Cases listed for one year and upwards - -40 ;
Cases listed for six months and upwards - 30.
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The following papers were presented : -
North Australia and Northern Territory - Report on the Administration of the Northern Territory for the period 1st July, 1920, to 28th February, 1927, and on the Administration of the Territory of North Australia from 1st March, 1927, to 30th June, 1927.
North Australia - Initial Report of the North Australia Commission on the Scheme for the Development of North Australia.
Arbitration (Public Service) Act - Determinations by the Arbitrator, &c. -
No. 6 of 1928- Federated Public Service Assistants’ Association.
No. 7 of 1928 - Postal Overseers’ Union of Australia.
SUPPLY (Formal).
Order of Business.
Question - That Mr. Speaker do now leave the chair and the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply - proposed.
– I take this opportunity of expressing my disapproval of the manner in which the Government is depriving private members of their privilege of introducing business in this House. Last night the Prime Minister moved, but afterwards withdrew, a motion that Government business should take precedence over general business to-morrow. I have an important motion on the notice-paper which I desired to move this morning: It reads: -
That, owing to the fact that Australian wheat growers, having no effective organization for the marketing of their product, are receiving a price insufficient to cover the cost of production, plus a reasonable return for their labour, the Government be instructed to take action in co-operation with the States to establish a Compulsory Commonwealth Wheat Pool.
I have received a great number of communications from wheat growers in my electorate asking that steps be taken to give them the advantage of a compul sory wheat pool during the coming harvest. Unfortunately, the motion agreed to last night will cause delay in the consideration of this important matter. The Government seems to have developed the habit of wasting the time of the House during the early stages of a session, and then, in an effort to make up for this loss, it rushes through important measures in the last days of the session. To that method of conducting the business of the House I strongly object.
– I rise to a point of order. The question the honorable member for Hume (Mr. Parker Moloney) is now discussing was settled by the House yesterday. His remarks this morning are not revelant to the question before the House.
– The honorable member is discussing the actions of the Government generally. So far he has carefully avoided transgressing the Standing Orders.
– As a new member of this House who has still much to learn, the honorable member for Barton (Mr. Ley) may be forgiven for raising his futile point of order. If he remains in this House long enough he may yet learn how its business is conducted. If we are to have a compulsory wheat pool throughout Australia much preparatory work will be necessary. “Were a wheat pool established, there would be only one chartering authority.
– The honorable member may not discuss the merits of a compulsory wheat pool.
– I realize that I may not do so at this stage, but this matter calls for early attention because of its importance. Unfortunately, the procedure adopted by the Government prevents honorable members from discussing matters of great concern to the community. I remind the House that my constituency is one of the most important wheat producing areas of the Commonwealth. At a Country party conference which the Treasurer, (Dr. Earle Page) attended recently, a resolution in favour of the establishment of a compulsory wheat pool was . carried.
– The honorable member may not proceed along those lines.
– I should like to know whether the Government has any policy in regard to the establishment of a compulsory Commonwealth wheat pool.
– Is it an urgent matter ?
– If the honorable member for Franklin (Mr. Seabrook) knew anything about subjects other than apples and rabbit skins, he would be aware that the establishment of a wheat pool is a matter of great concern to the wheat growers of Australia. One of the worst features of the procedure adopted by the Government is that in order to compensate for the time wasted at the beginning of a session, important legislation is rushed through later without proper consideration. Seeing that the various States are already taking steps to provide for a compulsory wheat pool, it is imperative that we should know the intention of the Commonwealth Government in the matter.
– The honorable member for Hume (Mr. Parker Moloney) in accusing the Government of depriving honorable members of the opportunity to discuss motions standing in their names, said that it had developed a habit of wasting time at the beginning of a session, with the result that towards its close there was a heavy pressure of work. I have often wondered at my own moderation when Opposition members have occupied at much length the time of the House. Unquestionably, their action makes’ it difficult at times for the Government to proceed with its business. I believe that the Opposition should be given every opportunity to express its views on matters of . importance, and, consequently, during the present session I have given its members that opportunity. But as the honorable member for Hume has seen fit to take me to task for this, and as I am not above learning from experience, to avoid any further charge of having wasted the time of the House, I move -
That the question he now put.
– On a point of order. Is it the usual practice for an honorable member at the conclusion of his speech to move, “ That the question be now put “?
– Under the Standing Orders that question may be moved at any time.
Question - That the question be now put - put. The House divided.
AYES: 33
NOES: 16
Majority . . . . 17
AYES
NOES
Question so resolved in the affirmative.
Original question resolved in the negative.
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– I move -
That the bill be now read a second time.
This bill has been introduced at the express wish of the governments of the States that are vitally interested in the dried fruits industry. Its main object is to ensure to all growers a fair share, and not more than a fair share, of the advantages and disadvantages respectively of sellingwithin Australia and overseas. Since 1919, the expansion of this industry has been very remarkable and is largely due to the fact that many returned soldiers have been engaged in producing dried fruits. . The export proportion was formerly about 20 per cent, as against the local consumption proportion of 80 per cent. To-day that proposition is reversed.
In 1924 the Commonwealth Parliament passed a measure establishing’ an Export Board whose function was to lay down a general marketing policy for the export sale of dried fruits. A poll was taken in connexion with the establishment of that board and a very substantial majority of fruitgrowers decided in its favour. While the Export Board has power to lay dowD a general marketing’ policy with respect to exported fruit it has no power to compel fruit to be exported. It cannot say to a packing shed or producer that out of, say, 1,000 tons of fruit 500 tons must be exported. This industry has, ever since it has become properly organized, endeavoured to maintain a fair price for dried fruits sold within Australia. It is only fair to the industry to say that during the war period at a time when export rates for dried fruits were extremely high, it sold its quota within Australia at a price lower than the export rate. It frequently happens that the overseas market is unprofitable, and if two prices are ruling- for a commodity, as happens in this industry, it is only human nature that the growers, or a certain proportion of them at any rate, should wish to take advantage of the better market. Tt is absolutely essential to preserve a fair Australian price, regardless of conditions which may arise overseas, and to that end there must be some machinery set in motion to enable every grower or packing shed to obtain a fair share of the Australian price and of the overseas price. In 1924, shortly after the Commonwealth Government passed legislation establishing the Export Board, two of the State Governments that are vitally interested in this industry, brought down what might be described as complementary legislation. The Governments of Victoria and South Australia set up State Dried Fruit Boards, and more recently the Governments of Western Australia and New South Wales did likewise. In each case polls were taken of the producers concerned, and by a substantial majority they affirmed the establishment of State boards. The function of these boards was to lay down the proportion of the dried fruits to be marketed both within the
States and overseas. In other words, they were set up to lay down an export quota. The State legislation provided for compulsory acquisition of such dried fruits as it was deemed desirable should be. acquired, so that in the event of a packing shed or fruit-grower not carrying out the decisions of the Board in regard to the export quota, the board, as the instrument of the State, could step in and compulsorily acquire the fruit. Little or no difficulty arose in connexion with this export quota arrangement. It worked very- smoothly indeed until the South Australian Government became involved in litigation. The South Australian board, acting under its legislative powers, compulsorily acquired a quantity of dried fruit from a packer who was endeavoring to sell in another State fruit, which, in the view of the board, should have been exported. The High Court held that the State legislation, under which this board operated, was invalid, because section 92 of the Constitution laid down that interstate trade must be absolutely free. The High Court decided that the State board had no power to interfere in any way with interstate trade, and that its operations were in contravention of section 92. Compulsory acquisition is regarded by the States as rather objectionable, and likely to raise many difficulties. As the Dried Fruits Acts of Western Australia, Victoria and New South Wales were couched in somewhat similar terms to the South Australian Act, it meant that, according to the decision ‘ of the High Court, the legislation ‘ of those States became invalid. The States then appealed to the Commonwealth Government to come to the- rescue and to do for the industry what, according to the High Court the States were unable to do except by acquisition. The Victorian and South Australian Governments amended their acts to allow the provision relating to the export quota to remain inoperative until such time as the Commonwealth Government brought down legislation to supplement the lack of power which the State boards enjoyed and to enable them to again become operative. It is understood that Western Australia and New South Wales intend to introduce similar amending legislation.
That really means that the working of the State legislation is to some extent held up until an amending measure is carried by this Parliament. To avoid that difficulty, the bill now before the House has been introduced. The Government proposes, not to delegate its power to the States, although that course was suggested by the States, but to make use of prescribed authorities, which may, and probably will, be the State boards, to act as Commonwealth instruments in carrying out Commonwealth powers in respect of the marketing of dried fruits.
– That is only another form of delegation.
– It is not a delegation to the “ Government j but merely a using of State instrumentalities to carry out Commonwealth powers. What are those powers? ‘ There are two .sections of the Constitution governing the powers which the Commonwealth enjoys in this connexion, and they are sections 92 and 99. I have already quoted the relevant provision of section 92, which lays down that trade between the States must be absolutely free. The High Court, however, in the MacArthur case, held that while section 92 bound State legislatures, the. Commonwealth legislature was not so bound and that it could, if desired, regulate interstate trade. Section 99, however, compels the Commonwealth Government, if it decides to use its powers to regulate interstate trade, to do so in a way that will not involve any discrimination or preference as between States. Therefore, whatever we do has to be done subject to the limitations of section 99.
– There cannot- be uniformity if the industry does not. exist in all the States.
– There can be uniformity. of a kind, I think, to satisfy the provisions of section 99. With regard to the necessity for this legislation, Mr. Gunn, one of the members of the Development and Migration Commission, who has recently . been engaged in a very exhaustive investigation of the dried fruits industry, has declared that the industry as a whole must fail unless all those engaged in it are compelled to take their fair share of the less remunerative export trade, as well as of the more remunerative trade within Australia. Coming to the bill itself, it is doubtful if the Commonwealth can directly compel export, but as it can, according to the most recent decision of the High Court, regulate interstate trade, we propose to make use of that power, and by that means to indirectly lay down an export quota. It is provided in the bill that packers in those States in which there is a surplus greater than can be consumed locally can engage . in interstate trade only after they have obtained a licence so to do. The conditions under which these licences will in all probability be granted is that interstate trade can be undertaken only by those who have supplied their export quota. If a packer desires to sell interstate he must satisfy the State board concerned that he is carrying out his duty in the matter of his export quota. The conditions of the licence’s will probably take the form of providing that the export quota shall be carried out, or that an equalization arrangement has been entered into under which the same financial result will be brought ‘ about as if the export quota conditions had been complied with. It will be seen that the chain is complete. The States have undoubted powers in regard to intra-state trade. If the Commonwealth issues licences under which interstate trade shall be undertaken, and makes it a condition that a proportion of the overseas trade shall be taken up, intra-state, interstate and overseas trade will be covered, and the regulation ‘ of the industry complete. It might appear that by taking this step we shall be regulating interstate trade in such a way as to interfere with its proper flow. I wish to make it quite clear that there is no such intention, and that it is not proposed to in any way divert the trade between the different parts of Australia, excepting that before growers can engage in interstate trade they must do their share in regard to export, or agree to an equalization arrangement under which the same financial result will be obtained. It .really means that interstate trade need not be impeded in any shape or form so long as those engaged in it comply with what is laid down in regard to their quota of the export trade.
– Should not this be done by the individual States?
– The States have attempted it, but as the High Court has ruled that they have not the power, they have appealed to the Commonwealth to do it. That is the object of this measure. In order to show that there need not be any unnecessary interference with interstate trade, I may say that if those who wish to engage in that trade first of all do their share of export trade, and there is only the proper quantity of dried fruit remaining for Australian consumption, it does not matter very much whether it is disposed of in the State where it is produced or sent into another State ; so long as 75 per cent, or 80 per cent. - whatever the quantity may be - is exported, and 20 per cent, or 25 per cent, which is necessary for the requirements of Australia remains, obviously there will be no incentive for necessary carriage of dried fruit between the States. Supplies will be sent only from a State where there is more than is required to a State where there is a shortage. The licences to permit interstate trade will be issued by the Commonwealth Minister for Markets, through the State boards. It will be recognized that this is a very significant step which the Commonwealth is taking. The Government has given its proposals a great deal of careful consideration, and has come to the conclusion that it is absolutely justified in acceding to the wishes of the four States concerned. It believes it is necessary and vital to the interests of the industry that those engaged in it should obtain a fair share of the Australian trade, and also of the export trade. It has been decided that this is the right course to pursue. In conclusion I should like to point out to the House the extraordinary degree of unanimity in connexion with this matter both on the part of the State Governments concerned and of the industry in all the States. First, all the States concerned have passed State legislation to control intrastate trade and have asked the Commonwealth to do what we now propose. Secondly, polls have been taken not only throughout the Commonwealth in connexion with the Commonwealth Export Control Board, but by each of the State boards, to which I have alluded, and these show that a substantial majority of the producers are in favour of the scheme. Thirdly, the control proposed to be exercised in this way will be undertaken substantially by the producers themselves. Fourthly, this industry is very efficiently organized for the purposes of marketing. It is no exaggeration to say that the dried fruits industry is more efficiently organized for marketing than any other exporting industry. Finally, the Commonwealth is satisfied that this legislation is necessary to save the industry from possible disaster ; and that it is not detrimental to the interests of the general community. I commend the bill to the House.
Debate (on motion by Mr. Scullin) adjourned;
page 4303
Message reported from the GovernorGeneral recommending a verbal amendment to this bill.
Ordered -
That the message be taken into consideration in committee forthwith.
In committee (Consideration of GovernorGeneral’s message) :
Clause 1.
Recommended amendment -
Clause 1, sub-clause (2) - Leave out “ as amended by the Excise Tariff 1927.”
.- I move-
That the amendment be agreed to.
Section 58 of the Constitution provides that the Governor-General may recommend amendments where obvious errors have occurred in our acts. In this case sub-clause 2 of clause 1 of this bill provides that “the Excise Tariff Act 1921-26, as amended by the Excise Tariff Act 1927, is, in this act referred to as the principal act.” In fact, there is no Excise Tariff Act 1927, and the recommended amendment is that the words “ as amended by the Excise Tariff Act 1927 “ be left out. The error arose in this way : This measure relates to the excise duties on spirits used in the manufacture of scents, and also the excise duties on starch.
Originally, two separate bills were provided to deal with these commodities, one in relation to starch, and one in connexion with spirit used in the manufacture of scent; but it was subsequently decided that they should be combined in one bill. “When they were in separate bills these words were proper and necessary ; but as the two items are now in one act they are unnecessary, and the amendment should be made.
Motion agreed to.
Resolution reported and adopted.
page 4304
Message recommending appropriation reported.
Ordered -
That the message be taken into consideration in committee forthwith.
In committee (Consideration of Governor-General’s message) :
Motion (by Sir Neville Howse) proposed .
That it is expedient that an appropriation of revenue be made for the purposes of a bill for an act to grant and apply out of the Consolidated Revenue fund a sum of £3,220,000 for naval construction, for a reserve for defence, and the development of civil aviation.
.- Seeing that this is a proposal for the appropriation of sums amounting to £3,000,000 out of the Consolidated Revenue, I may with propriety raise a matter touching on the use - or possibly the misuse - of appropriations in general. At the beginning of this session I addressed a question to the Treasurer asking for information regarding certain appropriations and the use of certain funds, and calling attention to the criticism of the Auditor-General in regard to those matters in his recent report. I received, not a reply, but what might pass for parliamentary excuse for a replya studied evasion, and no opportunity has arisen until- now to call the attention of the committee to this evasion on the part of the Minister. My question, which was courteously framed, and was quite a legitimate effort to obtain, information, is reported on page 3598 of Hansard, as follows: -
The reply of the Treasurer was - 1, 2, 3, and 4. See answer to preceding question.
The preceding question did not cover the same ground. I do not know how the Treasurer can excuse such conduct. Every parliamentary representative has a right to ask questions based . on the report of the Auditor-General, especially when the report is tabled, as in this case, after the consideration of the Estimates, and the passing of the final appropriation bill, so that there is no adequate opportunity to bring such matters before the Committee of Supply, nor before the whole House. It is obvious that the Treasurer wished to avoid a discuscussion on Treasury administration. It is the duty of the Auditor-General to examine the Treasury accounts, to point out irregularities, and to watch the financial administration of the Government. All Auditors-General for the Commonwealth have done that work frankly and carefully, but the work is useless if honorable members may not use their reports as a basis of subsequent discussion, and as a means of obtaining information. The extracts I made from the Auditor-General’s report amounted to a very severe censure of the administration of the Commonwealth Treasury; yet the Treasurer himself avoids any reference to it. He has adopted an attitude which, no doubt, he thinks is clever. It is a scientific and studied evasion, and is adopted because he knows that little opportunity is available for obtaining information on these points. I asked whether the AuditorGeneral, in his report, had criticized the Treasurer for the practice of transferring large sums’ of money from the Consolidated Revenue Fund to the trust fund for expenditure in a subsequent year. The Auditor-General made allusion to that practice in almost those precise words. The Treasurer may have good reasons for the method he has adopted in dealing with these sums of money, and may be able to explain why, when he expects a surplus, he transfers them before the close of the financial year. If he has good grounds he should state them frankly to the House.
– They were fully stated in the memorandum laid on the table of the House in the form . of an Executive minute signed by the GovernorGeneral.
– The laying of a minute on. the table of the House is merely one way of avoiding criticism and discussion. Honorable members may or may not see it.
– I handed copies of the minute to the Leader of the Opposition, and to the Deputy Leader, at the time it was laid on the table. It was a very full minute.
– One would expect such a minute to set out in full an answer to the Auditor-General’s criticism. I should like to see a copy of it ; it must be a most extraordinary minute. I do not urge that the Treasurer is bound to accept the recommendations and suggestions of the Auditor-General. He may have a good case to put forward in answer to the Auditor-General’s criticism, but, if he has, the House ought to hear it. The effect of the Auditor-General’s work is entirely lost if his reports, no matter how censorious they may be, are ignored.
– The report was dealt with in accordance with the provisions laid down in the Audit Act. The Government is not bound to accept the suggestions made by the Auditor-General.
– What about the criticism which the report contains? The Auditor-General referred to the presentation of the accounts in such a way as to obscure the real position.
– That is fully dealt with in the executive minute.
– It may be, but that minute has not been brought before honorable members. It would have been far more honest - and I make that statement advisedly - if the Treasurer had made a statement to the House in reply to the Auditor-General’s criticism and had provided an -opportunity for discussing the matter. There have been very few Commonwealth Treasurers, who, in the light of such criticism, would have remained silent during a whole session of Parliament. Some might be content to allow criticism of so censorious a nature to pass unanswered; but most Treasurers would feel it incumbent upon them to make some reply to this definite charge of obscuring the financial position by the method of presenting the Treasury accounts.
– The AuditorGeneral did not suggest any inaccuracy in the figures. All he complained of was the method of presentation.
– The AuditorGeneral did not suggest malversation; but he is not like a writer in the public press who can make charges without being certain that they are thoroughly founded. His criticism of a department conveys a great deal in the most polite language, and when he says, as in this case, that the Treasurer is obscuring the true position by this method of presenting the accounts, he is as severe as it is possible for him to be in his criticism of a Minister.
– The report was dealt with in the right and proper way.
– I do not think that it was. The Treasurer should have afforded an opportunity for a full discussion on the point. Prom the way in which the matter has been handled, one would think that it was merely a criticism of some local authority, or country hospital board, instead of the most important department in the Commonwealth.
– Surely the proper way to handle the matter was to proceed in accordance with the act.
– I agree that the proper way to deal with suggestions and recommendations of the Auditor-General is to have them considered by Cabinet, and then to bring them before the GovernorGeneral in Council so that executive action may be taken. But how can such a course dispose of criticism?
– The criticism was covered in the executive minute, as the honorable gentleman will see if he reads it.
– If the honorable gentleman assures me that the document covers all the ground, ifitrefers to the criticism that the method . of presenting the accounts is such as to obscure the true position-
– It deals with that fully.
– It is extraordinary to bring the Governor-General into ‘ a controversy between the Treasurer and the Auditor-General. I cannot understand how such a document, placed on the table of the House, can be regarded as completely disposing of the whole question.
– It was merely a question whether the Auditor-General’s suggestion should be adopted or not. The whole of his criticism is based on the suggestion he has put forward. He does not question the accuracy of the figures.
– Has the Treasury answered in this minute the reference by the Auditor-General to an apparent discrepancy in the accounts.For the five years up to the end of the last financial year there seems to be a discrepancy of £4,000,000 between the figures given in the Commonwealth Y ear-Book, and those shown in the Treasury accounts.
– The Commonwealth Year-Book follows the Treasurer’s budget figures as being more readily understandable. The whole matter has been covered in the minute.
– The Treasurer claims that he has covered the whole position by placing an executive minute on the table, though he did not call the attention of the House to the matter in any other way. I consider that to be a most inadequate method of dealing with what is really the most censorious report ever issued against any Treasurer. I admit that the Auditor-General does not make any allegations of dishonesty or malfeasance in’ regard to the public funds, but he does make definite allegations of manipulations - of improper transfers, of transactions- which he thinks are entirely wrong from the point of view of clarity and the proper presentation of the accounts of the Treasury.
– It is quite evident that the honorable member for Dalley (Mr. Theodore) has not read the Executive minute that was banded to the Leader of the Opposition, and the Deputy
Leader, at the time it was presented to the House.
– I admit that I have not read it.
– The whole matter was covered in that minute. Two subjects were dealt with by the AuditorGeneral: The first was the presentation of accounts, and the second was the manner in which the expenditure of trust funds was dealt with. In regard to the presentation of accounts since I have held office as Treasurer, it has become the practice during the last three years to adopt a business-like procedure, which has since been followed by the Treasurers of South Australia, both Labour and Liberal, and is being adopted this year by the Treasurer of New South Wales. This method is to separate the actual governmental accounts from the trading . or business accounts. It is thought that these two classes of accounts should not be taken in globo, as to do so would tend to obscure the whole position. It would not be right to combine the total receipts of the post office, which is an expanding service, and one which we are striving to increase, with the receipts from taxation, which we are striving all the time to decrease. To do so would be merely to provide an unintelligible mass of figures. It would convey nothing as to the trend of national finance. The alteration was made to enable honorable members and the public to see at a glance what was the position of the various enterprises in which the Commonwealth was engaged. It has been suggested by the AuditorGeneral that this procedure is wrong. He says that we ought to add all these receipts together in accordance with the old practice. Whether the system we have adopted is right or wrong is a matter of opinion. It is not a subject for censure, nor can there be any suggestion regarding it of improper dealing with the public funds. It is merely a matter of business accountancy, and of the manner in which the accounts should be presented. Since we adopted this system, it has been imitated by two other governments in Australia, and I have no doubt that it will be followed eventually by all the State Governments.
Progress reported.
Sitting suspended from 1245 to 2.15 p.m.
page 4307
.- (By leave.) - It is with regret that I have to intimate to the House my resignation as Leader of the Opposition. I have occupied this responsible position for upwards of six years, and the heavy strain that it imposes is affecting my health. I take this opportunity to publicly convey to the members of my party my appreciation of the loyal support ‘ that I have received. I am happy to know that the confidence they reposed in me when I was first appointed as their leader is maintained to the present day.
Honorable Members of the Opposition. - Hear, hear !
– I desire also to thank you, Mr. Speaker, and, through you, the House and the officers, for the assistance and consideration that has been extended to me during my term of office, and to express the hope that my successor will receive treatment similar to that which has been accorded me.
– (By leave.) - The announcement just made by the Leader of the Opposition has come as a considerable shock to all honorable members. I am sure that there is a universal feeling of regret at the course which the honorable gentleman has felt it necessary to adopt.
Honorable Members. - Hear, hear!
– Every honorable member trusts, I feel confident, that the undermining of the honorable gentleman’s health by the arduous services he has rendered to the country and to the party he has led is not of a serious character, and hopes that relief from the onerous duties he has so long performed will enable him to recuperate so that he may live long to render further service to his country in this Parliament. I have been the Leader of the Government during the five years in which the honorable gentleman has been Leader of the Opposition. I place on record my appreciation of the courtesies he has always extended to me and the personal regard I have for him. On many occasions it is necessary for the Leader of the Government and the Leader of the Opposition to come to arrangements - honorable understandings, which depend for their fulfilment upon the character of the individuals concerned - and, looking back over the period of five years, I cannot remember an occasion on which the honorable gentleman has not stood up to any arrangement into which he has entered with me.
Honorable Members. - Hear, hear!
– The honorable gentleman may rest assured that every one in the House sympathizes with him in the fact that his health has compelled him to take this step, and deeply regrets that he is not in future to serve his country as Leader of the Opposition; in which capacity he has earned the respect of all parties.
. -(By leave.) - I wish to say on behalf of honorable members of the Opposition that we have received the resignation of our leader with sincere regret, and with the unanimous expression of opinion that he has faithfully and loyally served the Federal Labour party as leader for six years with unswerving devotion. In retiring from that position, he carries with him the fullest confidence of every member of the Australian Labour party.
– On behalf of the officers of the House and myself, may I be permitted to express our sincere appreciation of the words of gratitude that have fallen from the honorable member for Hunter (Mr. Charlton), and of the manner in which he has assisted in the conduct of business in this House. The honorable gentleman has at all times done his best to enable the work of Parliament to proceed smoothly and efficiently, and in accordance with the best traditions, and now that he is relinquishing his high and honorable position it is only right that this should gratefully be placed on record.
.- Allow me to express my appreciation of the kind sentiments that have been uttered byyou,Mr. Speaker, and by honorable members on both sides.
page 4308
In committee (Consideration of GovernorGeneral’s message resumed) -
– Before continuing my remarks on the criticisms offered by the Auditor-General and the comments thereon by the honorable member for Dalley (Mr. Theodore), I should like to associate myself with the expression of regret that has fallen from the Prime Minister that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Charlton) has ‘ felt it necessary, on account of ill-health, to withdraw from his high and honorable post. I hope that the honorable gentleman’s health will soon be restored now that he is free from, the arduous labours attaching to the position of Leader of the Labour party.
I was dealing with the first of the criticisms of the Auditor-General to which the honorable member for Dalley drew attention, namely, that the method of presenting the accounts obscures the position. On that point I read from the financial columns of the Sydney Morning Herald the following: -
The system followed the last three years makes for clearness. It shows the revenue and expenditure of each of the divisions of the accounts separately, and, therefore, an examination of the accounts easily discloses the position of each division.
That is the actual position. The division of accounts that has been made makes it much easier to see what has taken place. In two years’ time, if the referendum which is rendered necessary by the passing of the Financial Agreement Bill is agreed to by the people, such a division as has taken place in the last three years in the presentation of the accounts will be absolutely imperative. As a result of the agreement between the Commonwealth and the States, there will be paid each year into the Commonwealth revenue the sum of £23,000,000, which has to be paid out immediately to the creditors of the States for the purpose of meeting that portion of the interest on their debts. If that sum were simply lumped together with other Commonwealth .payments, it would unduly inflate the Commonwealth expenditure for no real purpose. That a definite change in the procedure adopted in the past is necessary is shown by the following article, which appeared in the
Australian Insurance and Bankers’ Record: -
The transactions between the Commonwealth and the six States are becoming more involved, and, in order to enable a clear view of Australian public finances as a whole to be obtained, it is desirable that both the Commonwealth and the States should show payments between one another in the clearest possible manner throughout their accounts.
So much for the first criticism of the Auditor-General. His second criticism is in connexion with the manner in which the Treasury deals with moneys appropriated year by year. While ‘ the first criticism might warrant all the expressions used by the honorable member for Dalley with regard to myself, and might be regarded as personal, the second criticism cannot be so classed, because I, as Treasurer, and my officers have simply been carrying out the practice that for the last twenty years has been adopted in the Treasury, because it has been found to be the best means of presenting the various public accounts in the clearest possible way. This practice has run the gamut of many Auditors-General reports, and it was not until two years ago that its wisdom was called into question. The question asked by the honorable member for Dalley is proof of the wisdom of the course adopted and of the clarity of the method of presenting the accounts. The honorable member, asked why there should be a difference between the Statistician’s figures and those contained in the annual financial statement. The reply is that the Statistician is following the Treasurer’s budget figures as being more readily understandable, and as more clearly explaining the position, whereas the AuditorGeneral’s figures obscure the position. Nowhere does the Auditor-General impugn the accuracy of the Treasurer’s figures or suggest that there is anything wrong in them, or that there has been any malversation of the public funds. He simply shows that there is a difference of opinion between the Treasury officials and himself in regard to the maimer in which statements of certain trust funds are set out. In pursuance of the idea he has as to the way in which these funds should be set out, he declares in his last annual report on page 9, that there is a surplus of some £6,758,797 at the disposal of the Treasurer, whereas £2,921,493 is the utmost I can manage to get together to carry out future commitments. An examination of the figures of the Auditor-General indicate that his alleged surplus of nearly £7,00.0,000 is to a large degree a myth. The great bulk of this money has been actually appropriated and definitely earmarked for specific works ; it is not available in the ordinary sense for the purposes for which a surplus would be available. Tor instance £1,290,799 has been allocated for naval’ construction and still remains unexpended. Contracts have been let, and this is the fund out of which monthly and quarterly progressive payments are made. No one can regard that amount as being portion of a surplus. The amount of £216,707 has been placed into a trust account to enable the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research to engage the services of research students and carry out investigations over a period of years. That amount is also hypothecated. For federal aid roads £1,346,940 has been set aside. This money is really the property of the States, but has not been drawn by them because they have not put in vouchers for it. It is required for last year’s commitments and is no part of a Commonwealth surplus. On the contrary it is a Commonwealth liability. We owe the money to the States. There is also £50,000 for the Victorian Parliament Memorial. That amount was deliberately set aside by the Commonwealth Parliament to enable it to express its appreciation to the Victorian Parliament for its permission to occupy the State House of Parliament in Melbourne for the long period from the inauguration of federation until our removal to Canberra. No one can say ‘ that that £50,000 forms part of a surplus. There are two amounts 121 the surplus dealt with by the Auditor-General that are available for future commitments, if desired. They are £1,421,000 for Old-age Pensions Trust Fund, and £1,400,000 for War Pensions Trust Fund. For twenty years with the Old-age Pensions Fund, and for ten years with the War Service Pensions Fund it has been the practice to put those sums into accounts at the end of each year, where they remain available for utilization in other ways if considered necessary. The total of those two amounts, £2,821,000, together with £100,000 set aside for the education of the children of returned soldiers, makes up the amount of the surplus appearing in my budget.
– Would not Mr. Cerutty be responsible for making up those figures?
– The procedure I have outlined has been the custom of the Treasury for twenty years. There is a fundamental difference of opinion between the Auditor-General and the Treasury with regard to the way in which trust fund statements should be treated in the budget. At present, with the exception of old-age and war pensions funds, when amounts are placed into trust funds the expenditure is regarded as having taken place. As those two exceptions are subject to regularly recurring large obligations, it was considered wise, for the information of - the public and of this Parliament, to treat them as is done in the budget statement, showing the amounts expended during the year. In the financial statement, which is drawn up in accordance with the Audit Act, we have to show the amount actually transferred to trust account. In one year something like £10,280,000 was appropriated,’ and only £9,000,000 spent. £9,000,000 would be shown. in the budget statement, and would be taken into account by the Statistician when he compiled his tables. The financial statement would disclose an amount of £10,280,000, in accordance with the provisions of the Audit Act. Such a difference as £1,000,000 goes a long way to explain the £4,000,000 discrepancy between the finance statement and the figures of the Commonwealth Statistician, to which the Auditor-General called attention. The Auditor-General suggests that all other trust funds should be treated as are the old-age pensions and war pension funds. There are about 112 trust funds in the Commonwealth Treasury, made up of sums which come from all sort of different sources. As a typical example, I mention the Australian Soldiers’ Repatriation Trust Account which derives its funds from the Consolidated Revenue. Last year a total of £844,000 was paid into it,” £759,000 from revenue, and £85,000 from repayments from different sources. It was the custom at one time for the Government to set up returned soldiers in business, and those men are still repaying their indebtedness. As those sums come in they are again used for other purposes. Last year £821,000 was spent out of that trust fund, and no one could with certainty trace the identity of the amounts concerned, whether they were derived from revenue or from repayments.
– The Auditor-General wants the Treasury to keep an income and a capital account in each trust fund.
– I give as another example the Government Printer’s trust account. There we have a branch which works for Government departments, semi-government departments and other administrations.For the work which it does for government departments, payment is made from the Consolidated RevenueFund, Loan Fund, and other trust accounts. In addition, it receives revenue from semi-government departments and from other administrations. How are we to tell, when an amount is paid into that trust account each year, how much comes from consolidated revenue and how much from other sources? All we can do is what is- now being done, which has been the practice for many years. It is not my practice, but one which has been in vogue with every Commonwealth government since 1908, when the matter of surplus revenue was first discussed, and it is considered to be the proper course to take.
– But the honorable gentleman has been the worst manipulator.
– I regard that as an offensive statement. I have not manipulated any figures.
– The honorable gentleman has transferred larger sums than has any of his predecessors.
– That is not so. It is impossible for the honorable member to prove his statement. Enormous sums went into the various trust funds in war time. It is purely a question of administrative expediency, governed by the money available at the time. The Auditor-General has raised questions which were examined by the Government, in accordance with the provisions of section 54 of the. Audit Act, which reads -
The Auditor-General may in such yearly report or in any special report which he may at any time think fit to make, recommend any plans and suggestions for the better collection and payment of the public moneys, and the more effectually and economically auditing and examining the public accounts and stores and any improvement in the mode of keeping such accounts and generally report upon all matters relating to the public account, public moneys and stores, and such plans and suggestions shall be considered and dealt with by the Governor-General.
After carefully considering the suggestions of the Auditor-General, it was decided to continue the policy that has prevailed heretofore, and the AuditorGeneral has been advised accordingly. The decision was submitted as an executive minute to the Governor-General, after the Government had approved of it. The insinuations of the honorable member for Dalley (Mr. Theodore) apparently arise out of a disordered mind. There has been no censorious suggestion of maladministration on the part of the Government. It is only by distorting facts that such an idea could be’ conceived. When I replied to the questions which were previously raised I assumed that the memorandum with which I dealt covered not merely the questions of the honorable member for Hunter (Mr. Charlton), but also those of the honorable member for Dalley. Had I been informed that anything had not’ been dealt with, I should have been only too pleased to rectify the omission in subsequent answers. The honorable member for Dalley must acquit me of any desire to show discourtesy to him.
– It is significant that the Treasurer should have made such a lengthy defence. Had the honorable gentleman been in the right, very few words would have sufficed to explain the position. The gentleman who occupies the position of Auditor-General to the Commonwealth Government has had. many years experience in the Commonwealth Treasury, and he is one of our most valued public servants. Something extraordinary must have prompted his comments on the procedure of the Government. It is most peculiar that a certain set of figures should appear in the Commonwealth YearBooh - from which our official statistical information is obtained - differing entirely from the figures presented by the Treasurer.
– The figures in the Commonwealth Year-Book go back for a period of six years, two years before I assumed office.
– This Government, in its capacity of caretaker of the Commonwealth funds, has a great responsibility cast upon it. It is well to have what may be termed a financial policeman to examine the operations of the various departments, and even of Parliament itself, and to point to anything that goes wrong. The Auditor-General would not be paid a high salary and allotted important duties if his office were not considered essential. I consider that there should he an arrangement whereby the report of the Auditor-General, covering the financial year, should be before this House at the time when we deal with the budget.
– The Audit Act would have to be amended to do that, as the report is based on the figures for the previous financial year.
– It is possible to have interim reports. If Parliament is to discuss the finances in an intelligent manner, it is necessary that the report of the Auditor-General should be in the possession of honorable members within a very short time after the delivery of the budget speech. Another report that should be in the hands of honorable members early is that dealing with departmental expenditure, salaries, &c. - the report of the Public Service Board. It would be very interesting, but I know impossible, to hear the reply of the Auditor-General to the statements which the Treasurer made to-day. The Auditor-General must have had excellent grounds for his comments, which may truly be described as “censorious.” They were made after a full consideration of the financial position.
.- Statements that have appeared in the press and some of the speeches made today regarding the Auditor-General’s comments might leave the impression that something was wrong with the public accounts. In no portion of his report does the Auditor-General state that anything is wrong with the management of the finances;, but he criticized the method of dealing with trust funds, and said, in effect, that moneys paid out of such funds should appear as expenditure for the year in which they are paid. . Let us consider that suggestion in the light of ordinary business procedure. Every business of any magnitude sets aside each year certain reserve funds for taxation, depreciation, and other purposes, and those amounts appear in the balance-sheet as expenditure in that particular year.
– That is quite different from the method of Commonwealth finance. The Audit Act does not provide for reserve funds.
– These trust funds are reserve funds, and the honorable gentleman followed exactly the same . procedure when he was Treasurer of Queensland. Payments from trust funds are made not in the year in which they are appropriated, but possibly two or three years later, and .are not seen unless one examines the trust accounts. The payments from Commonwealth trust funds are on all fours with the payments from the reserves of an ordinary business.
Question resolved in the affirmative.
Resolution reported and adopted.
Ordered-
That Sir Neville Howse and Mr. Gibson do prepare and bring in a bill to carry out the foregoing resolution.
Bill presented by Sir Neville Howse and read a first time.
. - (By leave.) - I move -
That the bill be now read a second time.
In 1924 the Government embarked upon a defence developmental programme to be completed in 1928-29. It included the construction of two 10,000 tons cruisers, two sea-going submarines, and the seaplane carrier Albatross. The cruiser Australia has been commissioned, and will arrive in Australian waters in October or November next. The Canberra should leave England late this year and arrive in Australia towards the end of January. The seagoing submarines experienced very rough weather between England and Gibraltar, and on arrival at Malta some defects in the main engine supporting columns were discovered, but I have received a cablegram from London, dated 26th March, stating that the contractors, Vickers & Company, accept full responsibility for substituting new columns and for the repairs now being effected at Malta. Satisfactory progress has been made with the construction at Cockatoo Island of the Albatross, which was launched on the 23rd February, and should be completed towards the end of this year. The total estimated cost of this programme is £7,400,000, of which £4,500,000 has been already appropriated as follows : - Defence Equipment Act 1924, £2,00Q,000; Naval Construction Act 1925, £1,500,000; Defence Equipment Act 1926, £1,000,000, leaving a balance of £2,900,000 still to be made available to complete the programme. It will be recollected that when the Defence Equipment Bill of 1926 was before the House, it was estimated that the cost of the naval construction programme would be £7,000,000, but that total has been increased by £400,000 owing to the following causes: - (a) Additional expenditure on torpedoes, ammunition, and gun mountings, consequent upon improvements and modifications in those items - also fitting in each cruiser a catapult for launching seaplanes, a decision upon this having been reached only recently; (6) an increase of approximately £71,000 is involved for the seaplane carrier, £18,000 of which is due to increased prices of armament, while an additional £53,000 is necessary to cover the cost of the application of the 44-hour week and the Workers’ Compensation Act in New South Wales; and (c) approximately £160,000 of increase is involved in the necessary aircraft for the two new cruisers and the seaplane carrier. Another amount included in the bill is for the continuance of the survey of the Great Barrier reef. The importance of this work, not only for defence purposes, but also for the protection of the mercantile marine, and of all who travel on our coast, will be readily realized by honorable members. The charts must be accurate, and the work already done proves that they are very inaccurate. This bill provides for the expenditure of £120,000 over a further period of two years. The remainder of the appropriation is for the promotion of civil aviation. Everybody recognizes the importance of improved transportfacilities, and, unfortunately, we are not so far advanced in regard to aviation as we should be if we are to keep in line with other nations. It has been decided to allocate a special sum of £200,000 to the development of civil aviation, and as part of the programme it is proposed to establish the following hew services: - Perth to Adelaide, Camooweal to Daly Waters, Derby to Wyndham, Melbourne to Hobart, Charleville to Brisbane, and Sydney to Brisbane.
– Will they be undertaken in that order?
– I think so. The only uncertainty is in regard to the Melbourne to Hobart route ; the difficulty of getting a suitable machine has not been overcome. This programme will increase the air lines by approximately 4,000 miles, which, with the existing routes, over which subsidized services are already operating, will give a total of over 7,500 miles. When the proposed new services are inaugurated, the entire Commonwealth will be almost encircled by airways. The exception will be the stretch between Wyndham and Darwin, and I have no doubt that this or some subsequent Government will at an early date recognize the importance of completing the circle. One of the major purposes of this appropriation is to extend the recently-established system of aviation training clubs and schools. These were inaugurated by me when I had the honour to be in charge of the Defence Department, because I recognized the enormous value of inspiring young men with a desire to fly. During the war all Britishers showed a peculiar aptitude for the air, and if we can train young men in civil aviation, although the machines may not be of much use in time of war, the personnel will be of inestimable value. We are practically committed to this appropriation, and I hope that the House will realize that the money is being spent to good purpose.
.- I agree with the proposal to give further assistance to civil aviation, but I cannot support the proposed appropriation for naval construction, because of the Government’s decision to dispose of the Commonwealth Line of Steamers, seven of which are capable of conversion for use as auxiliaries to the fleet. Some, time ago I questioned the Prime Minister regarding the gun-carrying capacity of these vessels, and he replied that it would not be in the public interest to supply the information I sought. I cannot understand his reason. If the vessels are sold, the information will be available to whoever buys them? Although I am a firm believer in adequate defence, I am not prepared to vote money for additions to the Navy while the Government is weakening the defence of the country by disposing of potential auxiliary cruisers. The new 10,000-ton cruisers which are now nearing completion will each cost the Australian taxpayers upwards of £300,000 per annum for upkeep; and yet in order to save about £500,000 a year, which was the estimated loss on the operations of the Commonwealth Government Line of Steamers, the Government is preparing to sacrifice those ships.
.- The seaplane carrier Albatross is to cost this country about £1,400,000. I have consulted naval and flying experts in regard to this vessel, and I am sorry to have to warn the Minister that it is not all that it should be. A few days ago I asked him whether the Albatross was to be so constructed that a plane when, ordered into the air by the Admiral, could be brought from the lower deck to the upper deck without being injured if the vessel was steaming in a heavy sea. He did not reply specificially to this. I am informed that, unlike the British seaplane carrier, Argus, the J apanese ship Hosho and the Saratoga, and the Lexington of the navy of the United States of America, the Albatross has no lifts. The planes would need, to be drawn up on to the deck by derricks and swung over the hatches. If the ship should be rolling 10 degrees or 15 degrees or more, a plane would smash against the combings of the hatchways unless four guys were fastened to it, each held by a gang of men. Prominent aviators have informed me that this procedure would be entirely unsatisfactory.
– The vessel was built according to plans received from the Admiralty.
– Unfortunately, even the Admiralty makes big mistakes at times. I am informed by one gentleman who has made a successful flight from England to Australia that there is something seriously wrong with this ship. Seeing that we are spending more than £1,400,000 upon her, we should make sure that she is right up to date. We must take into consideration, not only the view of the aviators, but also that of the man who will be on the bridge. The Admiral might direct the release of a plane, but if it had to be hauled on to the deck it might be impossible to get it away for hours. The Minister should obtain a report from Air Vice-Marshall Sir John Salmond, an aviation expert in whom flying men have implicit trust, who will shortly visit Australia.
An amount of £120,000 is being provided for the conduct of surveys on the Great Barrier reef. Some time ago a vessel which was engaged in this service was withdrawn because insufficient money had been appropriated to maintain it. For how long will this appropriation enable the Moresby to carry on this work?
– For two years.
– Will this sum of money be sufficient to render it unnecessary to withdraw the vessel within that period?
– It will. If at the conclusion of the period the work has still to be continued, a fresh appropriation will need to be made.
– The naval authorities were seriously upset by the withdrawal of the vessel to which I have referred. I congratulate the Government upon carrying out its programme, and am glad to hear from the Minister that the damage to the submarines which are at Malta is not as serious as was at first thought.
. –The work upon which this money is to be spent has already been approved by Parliament, so that it is of little use to discuss it at this stage. The Minister did not make it clear whether any money for this purpose was included in the Estimates which were passed, but not considered, by Parliament at the end of last year. “We could not consider them because of the closure the Government applied.
– This is the only appropriation that has been made.
– I am glad to have the implied confirmation of my statement, that the Estimates that were placed before us last year were not considered. “We have not time this afternoon to discuss generally the appropriations for future naval construction, but serious considerations are involved in that subject. When a country is unprotected and menaced in any way all commonsense persons will agree that adequate provision should be made for its defence. But political leaders in Great Britain and most other civilized countries have, for many years, been talking about disarmament and the outlawry of war. It is true that nothing very tangible has been done in that direction yet; we have been only niggling with the question, and so far have only agreed to discontinue the building of vessels of certain classes. Nothing really effective has been done to remove the menace of war. I regret that the Commonwealth of Australia has taken a very small part, so far, in the discussion on this subject, although it is most vitally concerned.
– We are represented at Geneva in the British Delegation.
– The British Delegation, it is true, has taken some part in the discussions; but no distinctively Australian note has been sounded. It may be that the Government is prepared simply to endorse the attitude of the British delegation, but I submit that we have a greater responsibility than that. We should formulate a definitely Australian opinion of the subject, and express it. Undoubtedly, the sentiment in favour of complete disarmament is extending in all civilized countries; but a more satisfactory way of giving effect to it should be devised. War is one of the most fruitful causes of human suffering and unhappiness and the Commonwealth Government in the first place, and the Commonwealth Parlia ment in the second, should take a greater part in devising ways and means of preventing it. It is widely believed that the next conflict will be in the Pacific. Consequently it is dangerous even to discuss this question here, for fear that discussion might arouse jealousy and envy among the nations whose territories border upon the Pacific; but I submit, that we should take a larger part in the movement to secure complete disarmament and the establishment of permanent world peace.
.- I offer no objection to the bill, but wish to emphasize the view expressed by the honorable member for Maribyrnong (Mr. Fenton) that the details of’ all trust accounts of this character which are established by Parliament should be given when the Treasurer presents his budget each year. We should know how all the money that has been appropriated is being expended ; but sometimes, for years at a stretch, we are left in ignorance of the position of certain trust funds. That is not as it should be. The report of the Auditor-General shows that considerable public expenditure occurs which is not referred to in the budget, and I trust that there will not in the future be any reason for such reports from him.
I congratulate the Government upon having provided an amount to encourage civil aviation. A wonderful amount of good work can be done by private persons in developing aviation in Australia. In some respects private persons can do more effective service in this regard than Government officers. Aviators who are working under contract with the Defence Department or the Postal Department should be given every facility and encouragement to supply the Government with reports as to the nature of the country over which they pass, and as to any matters which they consider might be of value to the nation in a time of emergency.
.- It is of little use for us to protest against this proposed appropriation, for Parliament has already agreed that the work shall be done; but I hope that this will be the last time that we shall be asked to send large sums of money abroad for the building of ships which could be built as well, if not better, in Australia.
I concur in the remarks of the honorable member for Dalley (Mr. Theodore) respecting disarmament. It is high time that we devoted a little more attention to the promotion of peace, and a good deal less to preparations for war. The nation from which Australia is said to have most to fear has given its hearty approval to every proposal that has so far been made for disarmament, and we could very well take a leaf out of its book. If other nations would show a similar desire to disarm, it would not be necessary for us to go on spending huge amounts for naval defence.
I am glad that the Government is do-, ing something to encourage civil aviation, but I am surprised that it has done nothing to retain for Australia the services of Mr. Bert Hinkler. I can quite understand that the appointment of this world-renowned aviator to a high office in the Air Force might not be welcomed there, but surely in some other directions his services would be invaluable to Australia. If any man in the world has proved his ability as an aviator, Mr. Hinkler has done it, and his services should be retained by the Government in some useful capacity. While it is true that men who are trained for civil aviation are not being trained for war, it is equally true that, in the event of their services being needed for the defence of the country, they would undoubtedly be available. Seeing that the Government is providing £200,000 to encourage civil aviation, I think that it could very well find a place for Mr. Hinkler in which he would be able to render outstanding service to the nation.
Question resolved in the affirmative.
Bill read a second time, and passed through its remaining stages without amendment or debate.
page 4315
Message recommending appropriation reported.
Ordered -
That the message be taken into consideration in committee forthwith.
In committee (Consideration of GovernorGeneral’s message) :
Motion (by Sir Neville Howse) agreed to -
That it is expedient that an appropriation of revenue be made for the purposes of a bill for an act to grant and apply out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund a sum for the purchase of radium.
Resolution reported.
Standing Orders suspended, and resolution adopted.
Ordered -
That Sir Neville Howse and Mr. Hill do prepare and bring in a bill to carry out the foregoing resolution.
Bill presented by Sir Neville Howse and read a first time.
,- I move-
That the bill be now read a second time.
The progressive increase in the incidence of cancer in Australia is becoming so alarming that every effort on the part of the Government is necessary to cope with this fatal disease. To this end the Government, after a long conference with the Federal Health Council and the Cancer Advisory Committee has adopted their recommendation to obtain a supply of radium sufficient, if possible, to be made available to the whole community, and for that purpose I am asking for an appropriation of £100,000 for the purchase of 10 grammes of radium.
– Is any Australian radium being purchased?
– No. Owing to the high initial cost in the use of radium, Australia lags behind Britain, America and the Continent, with the result that radium is practically available here only for the rich. As the introduction of radium into the human body is a highly specialized department of surgery, demanding expert knowledge of the highest quality, the Government deemed it advisable to adhere to the recommendations of the advisory committee, and to engage an expert to superintend the preparation of the radium into the forms in which it is used for clinical purposes, and to advise on its subsequent distribution and use. If possible, we shall co-operate with the medical teaching school by making the treatment of cancer a portion of the curriculum for the younger men who are to practice out-back. Dr. Cumpston and Dr. Burrowa have visited Adelaide, Sydney,
Brisbane, and. Melbourne. The hospital authorities are in complete accord with the Commonwealth scheme for the distribution and use of the radium, and it is hoped that the whole scheme will be inaugurated by the end of April. Of the radium purchased, 3 grammes are in Australia, 5-1/2 will arrive next week, and the remaining 11/2 grammes are probably on the way here.
.- Has the amount which we are now appropriating been expended?
– Yes. It was provided for in the estimates.
– It has been expended in the purchase of radium from abroad? Sir Neville Howse. - Yes.
– Have any steps been taken in connexion with purchasing future supplies locally?
– No steps have been taken, but if a further supply is required I shall give consideration to that matter.
– The reason given for not placing in Australia a portion of the order for £100,000 worth of radium was that the local company was unable to meet the demand in the time specified. If our present supply becomes exhausted, or partly exhausted, and further supplies are urgently required, the same reason may be given for again obtaining supplies abroad. I wish to impress upon the Minister the necessity for ascertaining what supplies will be required in the future, and the possibility of obtaining Australian radium.
.- I should like to know whether the Minister or the health officers are in possession of any information as to the progress of the production of radium in Australia, and has the failure of the Commonwealth Government to patronize the local company practically wiped it out of existence? Surely, it is essential that we should know the exact position of the industry, and whether, if further radium is required, the local company is capable of supplying it.
.- I would inform the honorable member for Yarra (Mr. Scullin) that instructions have al ready been issued to Dr. Burrows to’ ascertain whether our present supplies of radium are sufficient to meet the demand’s, not only of the cities, but of the country centres. We wish this treatment to be within the reach of the poorest in the community. I have not the desired information to reply to the honorable member for Maribyrnong (Mr. . Fenton), but I know that the matter has been referred to the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, and it is at present making inquiries.
Question resolved in the affirmative.
Bill read a second time.
In committee -
The bill.
.-I wish to know whether this appropriation of £100,000 is provided for in the current year’s estimates, passed just prior to Christmas.
– Yes.
– It is evidently one of those items that were rushed through and not considered by honorable members, which is rather a pity, because many of us who are keenly interested in this subject would have liked to discuss it. If the whole of the amount is provided for in the current year’s estimates, for what reason are the financial years 1926-27-28 printed. at the head of the bill? Surely those figures would lead one to believe that the estimates for those years have some connexion with this appropriation.
– The appropriation of £100,000 is provided for in the current year’s estimates.
– Then what do the cryptic figures at the head of the bill indicate ?
– I regret that I cannot inform the honorable member.
Bill agreed to, and passed through its remaining stages without amendment or . debate.
page 4316
Message recommending appropriation reported.
Ordered -
That the message be taken into consideration in committee forthwith.
In committee (Consideration of Governor-General’s message) :
Motion (by Sir Neville Howse) agreed to -
That it is expedient that an appropriation of revenue he made for the purposes of a bill for an act relating to the encouragement of prospecting for petroleum oil.
Resolution reported.
Standing Orders suspended,- and resolution adopted.
Ordered -
That Sir Neville Howse and Mr. Hill do prepare and bring in a bill to carry out the foregoing resolution.
Bill presented by Sir Neville Howse, and read a first time.
– I move -
That the bill be now read a second time.
The Petroleum Prospecting Act 1926-27 appropriated £160,000 for expenditure in connexion with the search for mineral oil in Australia, Papua, and New Guinea. Much of this has already been expended on special work, and on the payment of a subsidy of £1 for every £2 of money spent on prospecting. Some of it was also spent on obtaining the services of geological advisors, and in the preparation of surveys. In Papua a sum of £22,000 has been spent on the Popo oil fields. The Government arranged with the Anglo-Persian Oil Company to make a complete geological ‘ survey of New Guinea and Papua, and for this purpose this extra amount of £50,000 is required. Already a certain amount of the survey work has been carried out by air reconnaissance, which has been of great value, and it is evident from the reports received from the company that the expedition will continue its operations for about three years. This appropriation is to cover that period.
– What progress has been made?
– Very good results have been obtained. Boring operations have been carried out, and £22,350 has been spent up to date. Promising results have been obtained; that is all I can say.
– What is being done in the Northern Territory?
– Up to the present, nothing.
– Will any part of this appropriation be used in Australia?
– No. There is a good deal still left out of the £160,000. This appropriation is for the purpose of carrying out the special work which is being done by the Anglos-Persian Oil Company.
Question resolved in the affirmative.
Bill read a second time, and passed through its remaining stages without amendment or debate.
page 4317
Message recommending appropriation reported.
Ordered -
That the message be taken into consideration in committee forthwith.
In committee (Consideration of GovernorGeneral’s message) :
Motion (by Mr. Bruce) agreed to -
That it is expedient that an appropriation of revenue be made for the purposes of a bill for an act to amend sections 4 and 5 of the Parliamentary Allowances Act 1920.
Resolution reported and adopted.
Debate resumed from 15th December, 1927, (vide page 3337) on motion by Mr. Bruce -
That the bill be now read a second time.
.- I do not intend to detain the House over this measure, as the justice of it is so apparent. The wonder is that such an amendment was not made long ago. Members of Parliament are entitled to their allowance until such time as they lose their seats. The bill only provides for what I am sure that the public will agree we are justly entitled to. ‘For once, both sides of the House are in agreement.
.- It is my intention to vote against this bill. I am more particularly concerned with that portion of it which concerns members of . this House. At the present time, honorable members are not entitled to payment, nor are they paid, for any period after the dissolution of Parliament. I contend that they are elected only for the life of the Parliament, not for a period of three years.
If this bill is passed honorable members will receive in salaries an extra sum amounting to about £100 each for the period between the dissolution of Parliament until the date of the general election. For this year, and for each successive third year, additional payments of between £7,000 and £8,000 will have to be made. I shall state very briefly my points of objection to this measure, but I do not wish, in any sense, to urge my judgment and feeling upon other honorable members. This is a matter for our own conscience, and judgment. I am only explaining to the House why I intend to. vote against the bill.
– The honorable member ought not to take the extra allowance if the bill is passed.
– I do not intend to do so. I do not see that the payment of this money is legal and, in my opinion, any honorable member who accepts it can, on the protest of a tax-payer through the proper channels, be made to refund it, even if he suffers no consequences of a more serious nature. In my opinion, we are not members of Parliament during the period between the dissolution of Parliament and the general elections following.
– We do our work just the same.
– None of us would dare to write M.P. after his name, or allow himself to be addressed or described as a member of Parliament during that time. I am reminded that we often are addressed as such, but that is done in error. The Government admits in this bill that we are not members of Parliament, or entitled to salary during the period from the date of the dissolution until aftei- the following general election. That is shown in sub-clause 2 of clause 3, which lays it down that a member who is retiring, and not submitting himself for re-election, is not to receive payment foi the period covered by this amendment. The payment is only for members who are submitting themselves for reelection. The honorable member for Hunter says that we do the work of mem. bers of Parliament during that period. I ask him, however, what parliamentary work we do during an election campaign. Very, . very little I say, and what is done is not worth £100 of the taxpayers’ money; therefore, I contend we are not legally entitled to it. That is the first point. Secondly, I could not take this money because I do not think that I am morally entitled to it without submitting this question to the electors. For us to vote ourselves this money without submitting the matter to the electors is much the same thing as if the general manager of a business were to increase his own salary without consulting the head of the firm. What would honorable members think of a manager who did such a thing, without receiving any authority, while his proprietor was away in England? They would, I think, agree that he should be “sacked”. I fail to see any analogy between our position and that of honorable senators. Honorable senators are elected for a period of six years, and are paid for a specific term. Honorable members of this chamber are elected only for the life of a parliament. There is another reason, sufficient in itself to compel me to vote against this measure, and that is the conditions of affairs now prevailing throughout Australia. Unemployment is widespread in this country, which is faced with serious economic trouble. Many of our citizens are being subjected to severe privation. In the circumstances, it would not become me, as a member of this House, to ask the people to increase my salary. Time and again we hear of the distressed condition of thousands of Australians, who are without work- and sustenance. This, then, is a most inopportune time to submit a proposal to increase the salaries of honorable members. Again and again the Government has asserted that it has not money even to assist our returned soldiers, yet we now propose to put more money into our own pockets. This appears to me to be an illadvised, even an unprincipled, action. Such a step so early after our arrival in our new capital, will create a most unfavorable impression among the electors of Australia. I find myself unable to follow the Prime Minister in this matter. When an increase of salaries to honorable members was contemplated in 1920, the present Prime Minister expressed his views on the principle then involved, which is similar to that now involved. I shall read a portion of the speech of the right honorable gentleman on that Parliamentary Allowances Bill, quoting from Hansard, dated 8th April, 1920, at page 2365-
The position as I see it is not one in which we are concerned in discussing whether the present remuneration is sufficient or not. It is not on that ground that any objection on my part is based. When such a question is under consideration I am ‘ prepared to express my opinion upon it; but to-day the whole point seems to me to turn upon the time that has been chosen for this action on the part of the Federal Parliament. There was a general election only some five mouths ago, and at that time every party represented here to-day - be it National, Labour, or Country party - outlined a very exhaustive policy which indicated the action it was going to take if, and when, it was returned. There was, however, no mention of the question of payment, which then was as burning as it is now, no suggestion that the amount paid to the individual members was inadequate, and that steps should be taken in order to maintain the prestige of the House, to increase it to a more reasonable figure. While I believe there were individual members who did express that view on the platform, not one of the great parties, though nearly every one in the House adheres to one or the other, laid that down as a policy in the way generally recognized by the country. The Parliament then elected is some five months old, and now the question is introduced. While I believe that members are perfectly sincere - I wish them to understand I make no suggestion against anybody - I point out the way in which this proposal strikes the people of the country. There is no doubt that it is striking them as a piece of rather smart practice which is not confined to any section or party. I feel, and feel very seriously, that it is nearly a tragedy that any action by we representatives of the nation should leave such an impression, with, as I venture to suggest, some grounds for it. We are the highest authority in the land, and it seems to me we should be completely above suspicion.
I subscribed to the sentiments then expressed by the right honorable gentleman, and they are my sentiments now.
– I regret that this bill should be brought before the House at the very last moment of the session. Like the honorable member for Henty (Mr. Gullett), I am unable to support the measure. The three provisions in the bill appear to be logical enough, and I am inclined to believe that it is an anomaly that honorable members should not be paid for the period between the dissolution of one Parliament and the election of the next.
Had I been given an opportunity to refer the matter to my electors, I might now be in a position to support the proposal. Indeed, the electors probably think that the position which will exist if the bill is carried is already in existence, and that honorable members now receive this money. But there is no intention to submit the proposal to the electors and, so far as I know, it has not been submitted to the electors in the past. “We are told that an anomalous position exists, but I believe that it has never been placed before the electors for them to express their views upon it. My electors did not approve six years ago, and do not approve now, of honorable members increasing their salaries without referring the matter to them. I came into this House committed not only not to the increasing, of our salaries but, if necessary, to their reduction.
– This is not an increase of salary.
– I consider that it is; but I have no option but to oppose the bill.
– I am one of those who originally waited on the Prime Minister before the last elections in regard to this matter, and I shall reply to the remarks made by the honorable members for Henty(Mr. Gullett) and Boothby (Mr. Duncan-Hughes). Most of the arguments used by those honorable members were used in the Parliament of New South Wales some years ago. Similar conditions then prevailed in that Parliament to those which now exist here; members were not paid between the date of the dissolution of Parliament and the general election. That position was altered two or three years ago, not ‘only in New South Wales, but in every other State of Australia, and I have not heard any objection raised by the public against the innovation. If the legal objection raised by the honorable member for Henty is valid in the case of this Parliament, it must be valid in the case of every State Parliament. Honorable members are elected only for the term of a Parliament, so that according to the honorable member, the State Parliaments are, apparently, making payments to their members unconstitutionally.’ My constituents have been quite surprised to learn that members are not paid between the date of a dissolution and the next general election. As to the statement of the honorable member for Henty that honorable members do not earn their money during that period, it is my experience that at such times we are simply deluged with requests from constituents for facilities, and one has to put forward his best efforts in the endeavour to obtain those facilities. In addition, apart from excessive correspondence, all other expenditure is heavier then than during normal times. The proposal that is before the House is a fair one. I am very glad that the Government has brought it forward, and that the Prime Minister is redeeming the promise which he made two or three years ago. I have no hesitation in supporting the bill, and shall stand up to my action before my constituents.
.- 1 thought that honorable members in this chamber were treated unfairly inasmuch as they are treated differently from honorable senators. But I realize that our position is different from that of honorable senators. I contend that when Parliament is dissolved we become ordinary members of the public, just like the candidate who opposes us at the election.
– Honorable members do not surrender their gold railway passes.
– I question whether they should not be returned, but no ruling has been obtained on that matter. I am in favour of putting all senators on the same footing. It is not right that some honorable senators should be treated differently from others. The Constitution provides that they shall be elected for six years. Section 15 of the Constitution makes provision for the filling of a casual vacancy in the Senate, but there is now a period for which a senator is not paid.
– At times there have been gaps of six weeks or two months.
– A special appropriation has been made to cover such occurrences, and it is only fair that all senatoi’3 should be similarly treated.
I am prepared to vote for the clause dealing with payments to senators, but I am not, in the circumstances, prepared to support that providing for payments to members of the House of Representatives.
.- 1 very much regret that I cannot support this measure. I do not wish to pose as the custodian of the honour of the House ; far from it. I believe that an anomaly exists in respect of the payment of allowances to members - an anomaly so eviden t that if it were submitted to the people no objection could be raised to its removal. But I made the definite state-, ment in 1920 that I would not again support an increase in parliamentary allowances unless the proposal had been submitted to the people or had been included in a Governor-General’s speech. I sincerely trust that honorable members will understand my attitude.
– I also oppose the bill, because I believe that the proposed adjustment should be referred to the people. I would be prepared to recommend it to them, and I believe they would approve of it, but I cannot vote for it without consulting them.
– I have listened carefully to the arguments advanced by the opponents of the bill. A portion of a speech which I made when the last proposal to increase parliamentary salaries was before the House has been quoted, and the suggestion has been made that my attitude to-day is inconsistent with what I said then. That suggestion reveals a lack pf perspective on the part of the members who made it. The provisions of the law in regard to the nonpayment of members of this chamber after the issue of’ a writ for a general election, and also in regard to the nonpayment of certain senators in certain circumstances, was brought under ‘ my notice by a deputation of members, and I immediately recognized the existence of an anomaly that was not intended when the Parliamentary Allowances Act was passed. In accordance with the promise I then made I have submitted this amendment of the law, which merely rectifies an admitted anomaly. I do not subscribe to the view that we should ask the people whether parliamentary salaries should be increased. To say that that should be done is to make a statement that is not quite honest, inasmuch as when all parties recommend a certain proposal to the people, it cannot be said to influence the election ; the people give their decision upon far greater issues, and cannot be regarded as having declared either for or against a minor and uncontested proposal. Therefore, it is a form of hypocrisy to speak of consulting the people regarding this matter. It is, however, our responsibility so to act as not to lower the prestige of Parliament in the eyes of the people; and because I felt that a mistake was being made on the previous occasion I gave utterance to the sentiments which have been quoted to-day. The action we are now taking could not possibly lower the prestige of Parliament. It is right and proper to rectify an anomaly, and although I, as Prime Minister, am preeminently responsible for the maintenance of the prestige and honour of this House, I . have no hesitation in recommending honorable members to vote for this bill, notwithstanding that on another occasion, and in other circumstances, I adopted a different attitude.
Question - That the bill be now read a second time - put. The House divided.
AYES: 38
NOES: 6
Majority . . . . 32
AYES
NOES
Question so resolved in the affirmative.
Bill read a second time and reported from committee without amendment.
Report adopted.
Bill, by leave, read a third time.
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Motion (by Mr. Bruce) (by leave) agreed to -
That leave of absence be given to every member of the House of Representatives from the determination of this sitting of the House to the date of its next sitting.
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.- I move-
That the House at its rising adjourn until a date and hour to be fixed by Mr. Speaker, which time of meeting shall be notified by Mr. Speaker to each member by telegram or letter.
It is the intention of the Government that the House shall re-assemble on the 18th or 24th April, but I am not in a position to make a definite announcement. It is perhaps more desirable in any case that the date should be left open, for if a definite date is fixed and anything should happen to make it inconvenient to meet then, we should still be obliged to do so.
.- In the interests of certain honorable members who desire during the recess to pay visits to somewhat inaccessible places, I suggest that the Prime Minister should indicate definitely whether or not members will be asked to re-assemble earlier than the 24th April. I wish to visit Flinders Island, but if I am liable to be summoned to attend a meeting of Parliament on the 18th April, I shall not be able to do so.
.- I wish to visit parts of my electorate during the recess, but it will be impossible for me to do so and return to Canberra by the 18th April.
Mr. BRUCE (Flinders- Prime Minister and Minister for External Affairs) convenience of honorable members, and as there seems to be a desire that we shall not re-assemble earlier than the 24th April, I think that I can say definitely that we shall not be required to do so.
Question resolved in the affirmative.
Sitting suspended from ^.20 to 5.10 p.m.
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The following bills were returned from the Senate without amendment: -
Financial Agreement Bill. Defence Equipment Bill. Radium Appropriation Bill. Petroleum Prospecting Bill. Parliamentary Allowances Bill.
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Bill returned from the Senate with a message intimating that it had agreed to the modifications made by the House of Representatives.
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Bill returned from the Senate intimating that it had agreed to the amendment recommended by the Governor-General.
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Freight on Apples- - Telephone Communication at Canberra: Construction of Telephone Lines.
Motion (by Mr. Bruce) proposed -
That the House do now adjourn.
.- I wish to bring under the notice of the Government the fact that despite the glut of apples in Australia to-day, rail freights remain prohibitive. It costs 2s. to send a case of apples from Sydney to any part of New South Wales. The freight from Queanbeyan to Canberra is lOd. a case; in Victoria or Tasmania the freight to any part of either of those States would be no more than 6d. a case. These high freights are discouraging the people from buying apples. As the railway from Queanbeyan to Canberra is under the control of the Commonwealth, this Government should take immediate steps to reduce the freight on apples, which should not be more than 3d. a case. Apples are very dear in the Federal Capital Territory, and the residents are complaining to me pf the difficulty of obtaining them. I happened to be in Sydney last week, and while there I bought two cases of apples. It cost me 5s. lOd. to bring them from Sydney to Canberra by rail.
– What was the freight from Queanbeyan to Canberra?
– Tenpence per case. The freights charged in the Federal Territory are out of proportion to those charged in other .parts of the Commonwealth. They should certainly be reduced, and thus give the residents an opportunity of obtaining apples at a reasonable price.
.- Last night I had occasion to endeavour to communicate by telephone with Hotel Acton, but failed to do so, although I was some 25 minutes at the telephone. The attendant at the switch was very courteous, and also the attendant at the exchange, but they could not obtain a reply from Hotel Acton. I learned this morning that at some of the public buildings in Canberra the telephone attendants frequently insert the engaged plug and leave the telephone unattended for long periods. I ask the PostmasterGeneral to make inquiries in this connexion, because the lack of telephonic communication may on some occasion have serious consequences.
.- In view of the repeated references in this House to unemployment, I should like to know when the Postmaster-General intends to proceed with the construction of telephone lines that have already been approved. I understand that the telephone department is making a profit on its operations, and I urge that wherever possible the construction of approved lines should be commenced.
– The various matters referred to by honorable members will be taken into consideration.
Question resolved in the affirmative.
– The House stands adjourned until a date and hour “to be fixed and notified to each member by telegram or letter.
House adjourned at 5.20 p.m.
Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 29 March 1928, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1928/19280329_reps_10_118/>.