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House of Representatives
2 December 1921

8^th Parliament · 1^st Session

PAPER
- Papua- Ordinance of 1921- No. 9- Supplementary Appropriation (No. 4) 1920-21
QUESTION
- POSTAGE AND TELEGRAPH CHARGES
CONCILIATION AND ARBITRATION BILL
INCOME TAX ASSESSMENT BILL
QUESTION
- ESTIMATES 1921-1922
MINISTER FOR REPATRIATION
- Leave to Address House of Representatives
QUESTION
- ESTIMATES, 1921-1922
APPROPRIATION BILL 1921-1922
SPECIAL ADJOURNMENT
CONCILIATION AND ARBITRATION BILL
ADJOURNMENT

Mr. Speaker (Hon. Sir Elliot Johnson) took the chair at 11 a.m., and read prayers.

page 13550

PAPER

The following paper was presented : -

Papua- Ordinance of 1921- No. 9- Supplementary Appropriation (No. 4) 1920-21

page 13550

QUESTION

POSTAGE AND TELEGRAPH CHARGES

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES

asked the Postmaster-General, upon notice -

Are business men in the larger centres sending a large proportion of their letters by messengers, instead of through the Post Office, owing to the imposition of twopenny postage?
In view of the fact that the Tate of letter postage in Australia was reduced some years ago from 2d. to1d., will he, now that the war is over, ascertain what effect the twopenny rate, which was reverted to during the war as a temporary expedient, is having upon the revenue, and if it is shown that the high rate is causing a falling off in revenue, will he give the House an opportunity of recording judgment as to reverting to penny postage, or otherwise?
Will he consider the advisableness of reducing telephone charges and altering the present system soas to popularize the telephone service, And bring it within reasonable reach of every householder?

Mr WISE:
Postmaster-General · GIPPSLAND, VICTORIA · NAT

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are: -

Not that I am aware of.
The twopenny rate of postage was not imposed during the war, but was approved by Parliament last year for revenue purposes, and took effect in October, 1020.
The present telephone charges were introduced last year for revenue purposes, and are still required. The service is so popular at present that the Department is unable, with the funds at its disposal, to cope with existing demands,

page 13550

CONCILIATION AND ARBITRATION BILL

Motion (by Mr. Groom, for Mr. Hughes) agreed to -

That leave be given to bring in a Bill for an Act to amend sections 14 and 18a of the Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration Act 1904-1920.

page 13550

INCOME TAX ASSESSMENT BILL

Motion (by Mr.Groom) agreed to -

That leave be given to bring in a Bill for an Act to amend the Income Tax Assessment Act 1915-1908.

page 13550

QUESTION

ESTIMATES 1921-1922

In Committee of Supply (Consideration resumed from, 1st December, vide page 13524):

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr Watkins:
NEWCASTLE, NEW SOUTH WALES

– In order to correct the total for Division 70, the amount of which vote was reduced by £70,000, I propose, with the consent of the Committee, to adopt a course similar to that which waa followed in regard to the Works Estimates where reductions were made, namely, to insert after the original total of the Division the words “Less amount estimated to remain unexpended at the close of the year, £70,000.” Then the reduced total will he inserted. If this were not done, the total would be wrong.

Honorable Members. - Hear, hear!

Ordered:

That the consideration of the intervening votes be postponed until after the consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Repatriation.

War Services Payable out of Revenue. - Department of Repatriation.

Division 156 (Repatriation Commission), £2,529,429

Mr.RODGERS (Wannon- Assistant Minister for Repatriation) [11.9]. - Before the Committee proceeds to consider the items which make up the Estimates for this Department, I wish to make a general statement about the operations of the War Service Homes Commission from its inception, in order that the Committee may be seised of the true position to-day in contra-distinction to what would appear, from statements that have been published in the press, to be the position.

The Commission was appointed to provide homes for soldiers and their eligible dependants. This was to be done at cost price, allowing no profit to any one in respect of land, material, or labour. The scheme received the approval of the country and of Parliament, and its terms are embodied in the War Service Homes Act. There was at the time a very strong public desire that the work of building these homes, which meant the creation of a business Department, and was an experimental proceeding on the part of the country, should be intrusted to a Commission entirely removed from political control. Effect was given to that desire by Parliament, and the Act conferred on the War Service Homes Commissioner the power to acquire all necessary land and building material, and to engage the service necessary for the carrying out of the scheme. He was given the right to select his own staff, though it was to be composed, so far as they might be eligible and competent, of returned soldiers. Prom the beginning there was no political, no Ministerial, interference with the Commissioner.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– I would like honorable members to’ recollect how insistent was the demand that there should be no political interference, and that the Commissioner should be empowered to carry on the duties of his Department unimpeded. The records of the Department would be searched in vain for evidence of any attempt by a responsible Minister to interfere with the business side of the Commissioner’s work. The Commissioner was given a free charter in the building up of his organization on approved business lines, and the selection of officers.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– Had the Deputy Commissioners to be approved by the Minister, or were they appointed entirely by the Commissioner?

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– They were appointed by the Commissioner. Under the Act, the only person for whose appointment responsibility rests with the Government is the Commissioner; the business managers in the various States were appointed by him. The only direction that the Government gave to the Commissioner was that, so far as they might be eligible and competent, returned soldiers should be selected to fill the positions in his Department. Subject to that limitation, the Commissioner had a free hand in the building up of his organization. But, so that he might not have to commence operations “ off the rocks,” so to speak, the services of the Commonwealth Bank were secured to carry on the construction programme of the Commonwealth during the period in which he was getting ready. The Bank was empowered, as was the Commissioner, not only to build, but also to purchase and otherwise acquire already-erected properties. At the time there was a worldwide shortage of houses, and the demand for homes was as acute in Australia as elsewhere. In order that returned men might not have to wait unreasonably long for houses, the Bank, like the Commissioner, was empowered to purchase, to a limited extent, already-erected houses, though its chief work was to buy land and material, provide plans and specifications, and erect dwellings.

Alternatively an already-erected home might be bought, a mortgage lifted, or a contract into which a soldier had entered taken over by the Commission. Until March of this year, the Commission operated under two systems - that is to say, through the agency of the Commonwealth Bank, and by means of its own organization. In the statement I have to make to-day, I have no desire to pursue unduly any officer of the Commission or to rest blame on any particular officer; but I should be wanting in my duty to both this Committee and the country if I were not to make a clear and candid statement as to what I believe was responsible for some of the mistakes that are frankly admitted in connexion with the War Service Homes Department. I again remind honorable members of the condition of affairs that existed at the ‘inception of the scheme and of the strong public demand for the appointment of a business Commissioner. Lieut.-Colonel “Walker was appointed Commissioner in February, 1919; the Act was proclaimed in March, 1919, and he was allowed the period between then and September of the same year to get his building organization ready. In fairness to Lieut.Colonel Walker and the Commission generally, I would refresh the minds of honorable members as to the conditions which prevailed at that time. They were completely abnormal. There was a lack of material, a dearth of labour, and an unwillingness on the part of the general building community to enter into extensive contracts either for the supply of material or the building of houses. In these difficult circumstances the Commissioner and the Government had to set about the building of home3. There. was a strong demand for them ‘by the soldiers. They had come back practically in a body, and applications for homes were pouring in. After careful consideration if wa3 determined to give a trial to the principle that the Commissioner himself should become for the time being a master builder, and should set up an organization to operate in all the States. I can only say that, judged in the light of to-day, that system has not proved a success.

Mr Stewart:

– A most frank admission.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– It was only because of the emergent conditions that the Government launched the enterprise. I repeat that it was absolutely impossible to get supplies of material; that there was a shortage of workmen, and an unwillingness on the part of the building community to undertake risks.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– Why did the Government restrict the operations of the Commonwealth Bank?

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– So far as I am aware, they were not restricted. I know of no restriction that was placed on the Bank. I want honorable members to review the building operations of, not only Australia, but other countries, during this period. I remind them that the British Government itself embarked on a great building scheme, i Mr. Lloyd George, in his initial programme, set out to build 300,000 houses. To use a colloquialism, he “ pulled out “ after only 5,000 had been built. His building department was disbanded, and the Government retired from the enterprise of trying to provide homes through Government instrumentalities. America had a somewhat similar experience. Honorable members will recognise, therefore, that it would be unfair not to go back and look at the abnormal conditions which then prevailed. Who will say that, in any one of our capital cities, or in any of our important towns, no person in the building world of recent years has not made gigantic losses ? Examine the books of men of long business experience in any of the State capitals. They will tell you frankly that they have suffered colossal losses, and that the period during which the Commonwealth Government was engaged through its Commissioner in building homes was the most anxious in the history of business. Both in the acquisition and purchase of material, as well as in connexion with contracts for the supply of material; there have been very heavy losses, and I venture to say that the experience of the Commission does not stand alone. As a matter of fact, I have positive proof that it does not. I have talked over the situation with many of the leading builders in this city and Sydney, and I know that there is no firm that escaped heavy losses during the period under review. The experience of the Commonwealth Bank in respect of con- tracts into which it entered for the building of War Service Homes, as well as the experience of the Commission itself, was that many contractors failed to carry out their work. Some of them failed completely, and were unable to complete houses upon the erection of which they had started. I state these facts so that honorable members may not gaze only on the operations of the Commission. Throughout the whole world losses of this ‘ kind have occurred. In every country the building world has had to write down its assets, so that the experience of the Commission is by no means novel. I pray the Committee, therefore, when discussing the operations of the Commission, to have special regard to the abnormal period through which we have been passing.

Coming more particularly to the Commission, its organization, and its operations, I admit frankly that it was not organized on business lines. It was the duty of the Commissioner, and not of the Minister, to secure that proper business organization. The Government gave him a fair period in which to build up his scheme. As I have already said, the Act was proclaimed in March, 1919, and it was not until September of the same year that the Commission started its first work. To tell the Committee in detail of the directions in which the organization was defective, I should have to traverse the ground already covered by the Public Accounts Committee. That I do not propose to do. The Public Accounts Committee has made, and is continuing, a searching inquiry into the operations of the Commission, and I do not propose to go in detail over the ground they are covering. I shall content myself with the statement that the operations of the Commission failed, not in all respects, because I do not admit that it did, but failed mainly through lack of business organization and because it did not have the proper man at its head as business or,ganizer The Commissioner was selected by my colleague, Senator E. D. Millen, who chose, as he thought, the best man from those who applied for the position. There were not many applicants; there were not many returned soldiers who sought the position.

Mr Fowler:

– The remuneration fixed was too low.

Mr Hughes:

– The position was limited to soldiers.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– The Minister’s choice was limited to soldiers.

Mr Hector Lamond:

– It was not.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– Not in actual words; but as a matter of policy it was. The Government erred, perhaps, in not offering a better remuneration. I think that the salary fixed for the Commissioner should have been double what it was, in order to secure the right class of man. I mention that, however, merely in passing. We . are not able to attract to the Public Service of this country the highest class of men - the men with the best brains - if we offer a low remuneration. There are larger rewards and better opportunities outside.

Mr Charlton:

– What was the salary offered?

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– £1,500 per annum. It was of the highest importance that the man at the helm of a great business concern of this kind should be of outstanding ability - that he should have, first of all, a “practical knowledge of the building world and a thorough knowledge of building materials and supplies, that he should be familiar with the class of work the men were engaged on, and, above all, that he should have a knowledge of finance. A man big enough to answer to all these requirements is not to ‘be found in this country looking for a job at £1,500 a year.

Mr FLEMING:
ROBERTSON, NEW SOUTH WALES

– What allowance, in addition to salary, attaches to the office of Commissioner ?

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– There are practically no allowances in the way of emoluments to the Commissioner. He does not receive any commission, but is paid outofpocket expenses when travelling on the work of the Commission. Next in importance to the Commissioner are the Deputy Commissioners, who are, so to speak, the business managers in the States, and who, as a matter of fact, carry ont the building programme. It is the Commissioner’s business to lay out his plans, and it is for keen business men, as Deputy Commissioners, to carry them into effect. Again, I have to say that in his selection of the Deputy Commissioners, or business managers as we may call them, the Commissioner was very unfortunate.

Mr Prowse:

– Does that statement apply to all of them?

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– I have not referred to the general staff of the Department, and it is not my desire to place upon the shoulders of the officers any responsibility that should not properly attach to them. It is my duty, however, to point out in what respect the work of the Commission has failed. In Victoria, during the short period in which the Commission has been in existence, there have been three Deputy Commissioners or business managers, while in New South Wales, Queensland, Western Australia, and Tasmania there have been four each. In the short period in which the Commission has conducted operations, it has been found impossible to secure continuity of service in view of the fact that so many changes have had to be made in the management of important branches. I am not referring, in any statement which I have made or am about to make, to any officer who is now in charge of a branch.

Mr Maxwell:

– What has necessitated these changes?

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– I have in my possession a document furnished by the Department setting forth detailed reasons for the changes. Most of them occurred before I became associated with the War Service Homes Department. The history of those changes which have taken place since has been made known. In respect of whatever action I have had to take in dispensing with the services of leading officials, the facts have been made public

I do not propose to give statistical particulars of the operations of the Commission. A few months ago I appointed a consulting accountant, who is now engaged upon; and has very nearly completed, the preparation of a balance-sheet of the Commission, setting out its operations in detail; indicating, for example, the number of houses built, their cost, and particulars of all contracts which have been entered into for supplies. I do not propose to weary the Committee by going into details of the contracts, or by touching upon other statistical features. I want to say frankly at this stage, however, that the accounting system was defective. The Government have completely changed that system, and have established a new one, with a different set of books. I am unable to give the cost of the houses built by day labour. When I last addressed honorable members upon this subject, I pointed out that, aside from the political aspect of the daylabour system, it was impossible to enter into a definite contract with a soldier in advance, and to tell him what his “house would cost under that system. He was to get it at cost price; but it would be impossible to inform him, until some time after the job had been completed, exactly what it had cost. The late Commissioner, and the Government, regarded it as being essential to acquire material on contract for the building of these homes. Here, again, I have to make the frank admission that the Commissioner completely misjudged the number of houses which could be built, or in respect of which financial arrangements could’ he undertaken. The Commissioner entered into contracts far in excess of requirements, and I have had an uncongenial task in re-arranging some of them. It has been most difficult to handle contracts with the history of which I have not been familiar from the inception. The Government have endeavoured, however, to keep two aspects in mind, whether the contracts have had to be recast or terminated. The first has been the legal aspect, arising from the obligation of the Government to the contractor; and- the second has been the moral aspect, associated with the Government’s obligation to men who gave up their ordinary business connexions. -t refer to men who had been engaged in the production of small supplies, and who, in order to undertake contracts on. behalf of the Commission, practically threw over their usual clientele. Heavy losses must be faced by the Government owing to the necessity for terminating those contracts.

I desire now to put forward another phase of the operations of the Department. With no disrespect to the Public Accounts Committee, which is undertaking investigations, or to the witnesses who have come before that body, I wish to say that, had the Commission been welter- inn- and floundering after the manner indicated in some of the evidence given to the Accounts Committee, the Government would have no right to retain office. The Government take the responsibility for having re-organized the whole system in connexion with the War Service Homes Department. As a matter of deliberate policy the Government have abandoned the principle of building homes. That is to say, they are no longer master-builders through the Commission. The Government have recognised that times are returning in the direction of the normal; that supplies of building material have been becoming more freely available uponthe market; and that labour has grown more plentiful and more reasonable. The amount of industrial trouble which the Commission was called upon to face represents no small factor in the increased cost of houses. There were such difficulties as strikes, retrospective awards of the Courts, and a desire on the part of some of those engaged on the day-labour system to give the Commission less than a fair return for the wages paid them. Now, however, the Government are providing homes under the contract system. Their obligations will be limited to financing those homes and supervising the assets. This policy has necessitated very many fundamental changes which, however, the Government have not hesitated to effect. They have brought into existence what they believe to be an effective and essential organization.

With regard to the heavy stocks of material already held, and coming to hand in respect of contracts which have not yet been terminated, the Government have appointed a Central Disposals Board, with State subsidiary Boards. All material has been removed from the direct control of the Commission, and all the depots, plant, and building organization generally, have been vested in the Boards for realization. And, in the process of utilization under the contract system, and of the realization of the remainder”, the Government are endeavouring, through these Boards, to do the best they possibly can do with all the excess material. Along these lines,” very capable assistance has been rendered by experienced business men.

Mr Fleming:

– In the disposal, but not in the original purchase.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– I am referring only at this moment to disposal. [Extension of time granted.’] The Central Disposals Board and subsidiary Boards comprise men of experience whose iona fides generally are unchallengable. The Central Board determines the policy of realization. No attempt is being made, in the disposal of material, either to secure unreasonable prices or to further disturb the already disturbed market. It has been recognised that those in the trade have already suffered severely; and the Government, in getting rid of the materials, have refrained from coming into the field as a serious competitor with longestablished firms. However, a well-organized method of disposal has brought about realizations, to date, of about £125,000 worth of material - all sold upon very satisfactory terms, so far as current mar7 ket values are concerned. I do not refer to cost prices. There will be heavy losses when considering the difference between the purchase price and realization price. That, however, is inescapable. Honorable members may inquire from any establishment, in any branch of business activity, and they will be informed that stocks cannot be sold to-day at the prices at which they were bought during the period which I have under review.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– What would be the percentage of loss ?

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– It would be impossible for me to say what the losses will be, but the balance-sheet of the Department will disclose the whole of the business. I do not propose to give the Committee figures which, at the present moment, I am unable to support; but the Government have in Colonel Evans a most able official. This gentleman was formerly a .paymaster in the. Australian Imperial Force, and he had charge of the disposal of materials belonging to the Australian Imperial Force at the termination of hostilities. He has concentrated upon his task, with a small staff, and has already produced magnificent results and considerable savings; and, in fact, he is doing his work altogether satisfactorily.

In connexion with the whole business aspect, the Commission, and I, personally, have had the advantage of the services of General McCay, who is especially fitted for this class of investigatory work, much of it being of a legal character. This gentleman has given devoted and absolutely concentrated attention to a very difficult job; he has not spared himself night or day. The Government are now surrounded by experienced business men, both in respect of contracts, of disposals, and of re-organization.

Mr Charlton:

– Can the Minister indicate the approximate value of the stock to be disposed of?

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– It would probably be in the neighbourhood of three-quarters of a million sterling. The method of disposal, I emphasize, is a carefully organized one. The Disposals Board is cognisant of existing trade organizations. Upon the subsidiary Boards are men of the calibre of Mr.John Harrison, of Sydney, who knows all that is to be known about building and about the commercial side of the provision of homes for soldiers; and of Mr. William Fletcher, of Perth. I refer to men of ripe experience, who have given their services freely and willingly in an endeavour to put the business side of War Service Homes activities upon a satisfactory footing. In regard to general building operations - those we are carrying on to-day, namely, the financing of homes and the preparation of plans, specifications, contracts, and conditions - the Commission has completely altered its system, and adopted a simplified method more suitable to small units such as soldiers’ homes; but it is confronted with the greatest difficulty in endeavouring to have a home built for the soldier under the statutory limit of £800. The cost of building has not come down ; on the contrary, it has gone up.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– I can show the Minister instances in which houses which would have cost £1,500 to build a year ago, can be built to-day for £1,250.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member, of course, will not attempt to pit his knowledge of the building world against that of experts who have supplied the Commission with figures, and are prepared to stand by them.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– But I have recently been building.

Mr McWilliams:

– The actual test is that you can get the work done at a lower price to-day.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– I may modify my statement by saying that the cost of building has not come down in proportion to the general decline in other departments of life. It is to-day very costly to under take any building. For example, we cannot build a brick house of the standard set by the War Service Homes Commission for the statutory limit of £800. We cannot get contractors to build houses at that price.

Mr Hector Lamond:

– That is because of the bad name the Department has got.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– Exactly the same position confronts the well-organized system of the Victorian State Savings Bank. It is unable to build in brick today, and is not attempting to do so. A minimum brick house, conforming to the standard set by the War Service Homes Commission, would cost, including land, all services, and all equipment, at least £890, without leaving any profit to the contractor. The figures have been carefully checked. They are based on schedule quantities and at current rates.

Sir Robert Best:

– What allowance is made for the land ?

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– The allowance is £75. In the metropolitan area of Melbourne to-day land cannot be got in a decent position at under £3 per foot. I mention these facts because it is unfair to leave the soldiers or the community under the impression that homes can be built at cheap rates. However, we are having trial contracts under two systems. In the first case, in order not to encumber the contractor by loading the contract with supplies, we are calling for tenders where the contractor will supply everything except the land. In the second place we are calling for tenders where we provide the land and the building material at schedule prices at prime cost, that is to say, at current market values. The Joint Committee of Public Accounts will know from the examinations they have made that it is practically impossible to build a standard house within the statutory limit.The following are the details of minimum standard brick and minimum standard timber . homes, with the estimated costs of construction : -

Minimum Standard.

Brick Bornes.

Walls, 10 feet high.

Four (4)rooms as under, with provision for economical future extension : -

Living room, 14 feet x 12 feet.

Best bedroom, 14 feet x 12 feet.

Second bedroom, 10 feet x 10 feet.

Kitchen or breakfast-room, 10 feet x 10 feet.

Cooking recess, 7 feet x 6 feet. Laundry, 7 feet x 5 feet.

Bathroom, 7 ft. 6 in. x 5 ft. 6 in.

Verandah (roofed), 10 feet x 7 feet.

Fireplaces provided to living room and cooking recess.

Terra-cotta tile roofs.

Walls - Rough-canted and brick face.

Woodwork - Painted three coats.

Jarrah floors to verandahs.

Interior -

Open brick fireplaces with tiled hearths.

Floors- H.W. or Baltic.

Walls - Plastered, cement dado to bathroom and cooking recess.

Ceilings - Fibrous plaster.

Joinery - Doors, sashes, skirting, mantels, &c, red pine; plain treatment, obviating dust.

All woodwork oiled and stained.

Fittings provided -

Larder to kitchen.

One-fire stove.

Enamelled iron sink.

Drainer and table for preparation of food.

Bath and shower.

Concrete wash troughs.

Portable fire copper.

Timber Homes.

Type “ A “ -

Walls, 10 feet high.

Five (5) rooms, as under -

Living room, 14 feet x 12 feet.

Bedroom No. 1, 14 feet x 12 feet.

Bedroom No. 2, 10 feet x 10 feet.

Bedroom No. 3, or breakfast-room, 10 feet x 10 feet.

Kitchen, 10 feet x 10 feet.

Bathroom, 7 feet x 5 ft. 6 in.

Entry hall, 6 feet x 6 feet.

Laundry, 7 feet x 6 feet.

Verandah (roofed), 10 feet x 6 feet.

Fireplaces provided to living room and kitchen.

Sewerage generally costs £45.

Electric light generally costs £14.

Exterior -

Erected on jarrah or redgum stumps.

Walls - H.W. weatherboards, stained and oiled.

Woodwork - Painted three (3) coats.

Brickwork - Bough-cast or brick face. Interior -

Fireplaces - Open brick, tiled hearth.

Floors- H.W. or Baltic.

Walls - Lath and plaster.

Ceilings - Fibrous plaster.

Joinery -and fittings - As indicated for brick types.

Services Provided to Brick and Timber Houses.

Water-

To all fittings laid on from Metropolitan Board main if within 200 feet of property.

Failing provision of main, tanks are provided, and the service run to all points.

Sewerage -

House connected to sewer if available.

If not, traps and wastes are provided in accord with the Board’s regulations, reducing later cost to applicant of connecting sewer to a minimum. Rain-water drains -

Provided in all cases.

Electric light -

If available, provided in all cases.

A light in each room, with point for radiator in bedroom.

If main is not available, house is wired ready for future connexion.

Fencing -

Whole allotment is fenced.

Picket to front, paling elsewhere.

I ask honorable members to peruse the evidence recently given before a Housing Commission which sat to examine the minimum requirements of a modern family. After hearing very lengthy evidence from those who required homes, and from the most experienced builders and architects, the presiding Judge considered that the modern home should provide for five rooms. As will be seen from the table I have just quoted, the lowest price at which a minimum standard timber home can be built is £780, without leaving any margin of profit for the contractor. The prices given are based on today’s figures; but I may say there is a disposition on the part of the trade, pressed as it is with financial obligations, to arrange special terms. The associations that exist among trading people are being very severely tested by financial considerations which are pressing heavily on them individually, and it is possible in trading circles to get material in large quantities under list prices showing that there is a tendency for prices to ease.

Therefore, I am hopeful that building costs will come down.

The Government feel that it would be in the best interests of the soldiers if the officers of the Commission who are to carry on the present administration should be relieved of the task of adjusting all the difficulties that have arisen out of the past administration, and all the disputes that exist in respect to individual homes. It has, therefore, set up an Adjustment Board in each State, Each Board will have an independent chairman, who will * have associated with him the Deputy Commissioner in each State to watch the interests of the Commission, and one person chosen from a panel submitted by the Returned Sailors and Soldiers Imperial League in each State, to represent their interests. These panels have been furnished so far in all States with the exception of one. The Adjustment Boards will have specifically remitted to them matters they will be asked to adjust as quickly as possible, I said at the outset of my remarks that the aim and object of the Commission, as recorded in the Act passed by this House, were to provide the soldier with a house at cost price. The Government stand by the terms of the Act, and intend to fulfil the promise given in the measure; but the manner pf the fulfilment of that promise is one of the matters to be specifically referred to these Boards. If a. house has been built on a definite application by the soldier, on an estimate given to him at the time, and in respect to which he signed, as is the custom, an agreement to pay the completed cost, where the completed cost is in excess of the statutory limit, the excess will not be charged. On the other hand, houses built in groups, not on definite applications by soldiers but for stock, that is to say, to be allotted on completion, seeing that no contract was entered into in respect to them with individual soldiers, will not necessarily be sold at the statutory limit. I “have specifically “referred to the Adjustment Boards matters relating to excess costs under four different headings. There are cases where homes have been sold to soldiers at a price in excess of their actual cost.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– “Were those homes actually built by the Commission?

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– Yes. It was the honorable member for Robertson (Mr. Fleming) who first made reference to cases of this description that had come under his notice in “Western Australia, probably as the result of the investigation he was making as a member of the Joint Committee of Public Accounts; and it was the first intimation I had had that houses had been sold to soldiers at a price in excess of the cost. I immediately called for a return to ascertain if such a condition of affairs existed in any other State. This is one of the matters I have referred to the Adjustment Boards, with a direction as to the Government’s policy in regard to it. An Adjustment Board will not have a roving commission. It is simply a body to which specific matters will be referred, accompanied by Ministerial directions. This machinery has been provided so that justice may be done to the soldiers, and so that the continual pin-pricks, which are the result of complaints submitted to honorable members, the Joint Committee of Public Accounts, and the press, may be remedied if they are genuine or based upon equitable grounds. All these matters are specifically dealt with in references, and are accompanied by directions embodying the policy of tha Government in respect to them, so that no mistake can be made. These Adjustment Boards commenced their operations yesterday - 1st December. In Victoria, we have been fortunate enough to secure as chairman, of the Board Councillor F. Stapley, who stands well at the head of his profession, and has had a long experience, I am sure that he is a man from wham the soldiers can expect justice and fair play. These Boards will, I hope, relieve honorable members in the future of many of the individual complaints they have had from soldiers, and will enable the Commission, and the deputies and managers, to get along with the business of present-day administration on sound business lines, without having to deal constantly with complaints - many of them, no doubt, are well founded, but others are not - that now take up so much of their time.

Mr Maxwell:

– -Is the decision of the Board final?

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– No ; the Board’s decision is final in respect of matters specifically referred to it with a direction to settle, but, in respect of certain others, they will be asked to make recommendations. Honorable members will see that it would be impossible to invest the Boards with powers that might exceed those conferred on the Government and the Commission by the Act.

Mr Riley:

– Who is the Chairman of the New .South Wales Board?

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

- Mr. John Stinson has kindly consented to act for the Government in New South Wales in an honorary capacity.

Mr Foley:

– Who are the Chairmen in the other States?

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– I shall publish the names as appointments are made. I wish to make it definitely clear that neither the Disposals Board nor the Adjustment Board will have anything to do with the present-day programme being carried out by the Department.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– Do you imply that the Department is still itself going to build houses?

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– I have made it clear, not only to-day, but on previous occasions, that the Department is not building any houses.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– Is the Department completing the houses in course of erection ?

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– The Department is completing the unfinished houses.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– Does that apply also to the group system?

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– Yes.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– Even if houses have not been started?

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– There are very few; all the day-labour work is nearly finished. I may mention .that complaints have reached me, through honorable members and in oth/ ways, that the Government i3 not dealing sufficiently quickly with the construction of new homes, and the complaint, in some respects, is fairly well founded.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– Especially in the country districts 1

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– Nothing is being done in the country!

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– That, I think, is an unfair statement. In order that there may be no complaints by soldiers of preferential treatment or discrimination, instructions have been given to the Deputy Commissioners to prepare two priority lists, one for country construction, and another for metropolitan construction. The reason for this is that we do not desire country applicants, who are out numbered by city applicants, to be compelled to wait until earlier metropolitan applications are dealt with.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– How is the money to be apportioned ?

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– I have already announced in the House that the Government has allotted funds to the various States on an enlistment basis; that is to say, each State, according to the enlistments in that State, will get its allotted proportion of the funds provided by Parliament. That condition has not hitherto applied, and the Government is taking steps to bring all the States into line on an enlistment’ basis. The allocation of funds, as between country and metropolitan construction, will be according to the number of applications received under both heads.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– Without regard to the time of the application?

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– Yes. I have asked the Adjustment Board, as one of its definite functions, in order to prevent favoritism or discrimination on the part of any officers of the Department, to itself revise the priority lists, which, after that revision, will be accepted as the lists of the Department. That disposes, I think, of any possibility of favoritism or discrimination. I have also asked the Board, in dealing .with questions, of priority, to pay special regard to the circumstances of permanently incapacitated soldiers - blind and maimed soldiers - and of widows and children, so that special provision may be made for such cases.

Sir Robert Best:

– What about the excess cost of new homes?

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– I, personally, regard the sale of a house, or the building of a house, in excess of the statutory limit as a breach of the terms of the Act. Immediately I discovered the first case I gave a direction to the Commissioner that no house was to be built in excess of the statutory limit; and the Commissioner’s clear duty, when he discovers that the cost is being exceeded, is to immediately inform the Minister, and either get further provision or stop the building.

Mr FLEMING:

– That does not apply to applicants who are willing to pay the additional cost?

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member is right; the Department is always willing to meet an applicant who is prepared to contribute any excess cost, and requires accommodation that cannot be provided within the statutory price. As to the question asked just now by the honorable member for Kooyong (Sir Robert Best), I may say that all future building will rest on contract, and no contract will be let at a price in excess of the statutory limit.

Sir ROBERT Best:

– There will be no more brick buildings?

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

-Yes; but it was expended last year. I have already explained that the Treasurer gave us relief in that way at a time when the Commissioner had exhausted the funds provided by Parliament. That £800,000 has not to be repaid out of the vote of £4,000,000 for this year.

Mr Watt:

– Can the Minister tell us how much of the £4,000,000 represents commitments, and how much is available for building purposes?

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr Maxwell:

– Was the Resident Commissioner who recommended the granting of Caldwell’s application aware of the prior claim?

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– It had, apparently, been overlooked for the time.

Mr Fowler:

– The Resident Commissioner warned Caldwell that there were difficulties in the way of his application.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– This isthe letter to which I refer-

Office of the High Commissioner for the Western Pacific,

Suva. Fiji, 16th December, 1920.

My Lord,

With reference to my telegram of 2nd October, sent from Tulagi, and to previous correspondence respecting the lease of the island of Vanikoro and Tevai for the purpose of obtaining a timber supply, I have the honour to enclose a copy of a letter addressed to me by the San Cristoval Estates Ltd.

I have also received a telegram from the Secretary of State, from which it appears that the company has appealed to the Colonial Office as well.
I find on looking into the earlier records that on application was made by Messrs. Fairley, Rigby, and Co. about seven years ago for permission to cut kauri timber on Vanikoro over an area of approximately 18 square miles, but that final consideration of the application was deferred until a plan could be obtained showing the boundaries of the area claimed by the French New Hebrides Co. Although no actual undertaking was given to the company, it seems that but for the absence of the plan in question they would in all probability have been granted a lease ; and, in the circumstances, I venture to suggest to Your Excellency that it would be equitable if the Commonwealth Government were to afford Mr. Fairley an opportunity of explaining his position in the matter, and, if possible, of coming to an understanding.
I regret that my attention was not drawn to this matter before, but the earlier correspondence took place before my time, and I was not aware of the existence of the application.

I have the honour , &c, (Sgd.) C. H. Rodwell,

High Commissioner.

An opportunity was afforded to Mr. Fairley to state his case. I obtained from him a full statement of the facts. The Government was consulted, and appropriate action was taken.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– Did Fairley say that he had no claim?

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– No. He sustained his claim. The matter passed away from me when the Government decided on the evidence before it that Fairley’s firm had an equitable and fair claim by reason of an application lodged seven years ago.

I wish now to refer briefly to the timber purchases in Victoria and Queensland. They were the subject of investigation by the Public Accounts Committee, which inquired into them exhaustively, and visited the areas concerned, finally reporting that, having regard to the abnormal conditions existing at the time, the purchase was in the circumstances justified. A good deal of press criticism has been published, in this State concerning the terms of the Drives: contract. I do not propose to go fully into the matter to-day; indeed I shall deal with only one aspect of it. I say definitely that both in the original and in the reconstructed contract the terms provide for a 10 per cent. reduction on current prices, and that those current prices are, and have been adopted, both by the Commission and by Mr. Driver, as the wholesale sawmillers’ prices, not the prices of the Timber Merchants Association; that is, the Government or Commission gets its timber on a wholesale, not on a retail, basis. I refer,in Mr. Driver’s case, to what was known as the Nott contract.

In Queensland the position is unsatisfactory. I make no comment of any kind on the purchase there - that is not within my province - I am speaking of the unsatisfactory condition of the millins; industry generally, which affects the War Service Homes Commission as it does every one else. I regret that the position is unsatisfactory in this respect, because I recognise the communal interests of such places as Beaudesert, Canungra, and Killarney, and it would give the Government the greatest pleasure to beable to start the mills, and revivify the districts that live on them. We know well how closely the small villages that I have mentioned are connected with the timber industry, and that families who live in them have been associated with the industry for a lifetime. But the Commission and the Government are confronted with this state of affairs. We hold very large stocks of sawn timber in our depots and at mills in Queensland, and if we recommenced milling operations until we had substantially reduced those stocks, we should increase our present troubles, and depress thetimber market of theState, accentuating the present difficulties. [Extension of time granted.]

It is the desire of the Government to get clear, as soon as possible, of the business part of the War Service Homes scheme, but we wish to get clear of it without making wilful losses, and without sacrificing the interests of the taxpayers or of the soldiers. Recently the business adviser of the Government in this matter, Major-General McCay, accompanied by a very experienced , miller, visited Queensland and the timber areas there, saw the residents, went fully into the matter, making a most careful and exhaustive investigation, and, finally, recommended the Government not to resume milling operations. The Government has given most careful consideration to the formation of a policy regarding the mills, but I am unable to announce to-day what that policy will be. Tenders were invited by the Commission, and certain offers in respect of portions of the timber areas have been accepted, but the Government desires to deal, if possible, with thebusiness as a whole.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– Was not an offer made to purchase Lahey’s proposition as a whole.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– Yes, but it was not regarded as acceptable, and I venture to say that the honorable member, when it has been analyzed, will not advise the accepting of it.

– There is not enough earth to keep down the smell.

Mr CHARLTON:

Mr CHARLTON:

– In many cases, unduly high prices have been paid. There was no attempt to get a true valuation.

Instead of obtaining from the mayor of the town, the president of the shire, or the town clerk or shire engineer, as the case might be, information as to land values, the departmental officers went to land speculators, and in numerous cases purchased, at very high prices, low-lying, unhealthy land quite unsuitable for War Service Homes.

Sitting suspended from 1 to 2.15 p.m.

Mr Gabb:

– I call attention to the state of the Committee. [Quorum formed.]

Mr CHARLTON:

– The Minister (Mr. Rodgers) has enunciated a new policy. He announced this morning that the Government will endeavour to build homes by contract, the Commission to find the material where desired. The implication1 is that, if conditions are acceptable to the Commission some contractors will be permitted to find their own supplies, while others will be carrying on with materials furnished direct by the Commission.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– The intention is to give the system a trial.

Mr CHARLTON:

– The method of permitting certain contractors to furnish their own materials is almost sure to bring about certain results. There will be “ nothing doing,” so far as concerns the timber mills controlled by the Government. Those forest areas, and the mills therein, will have to be closed. On the other hand, if the Commissioner is to find the material for contractors, the mills will be utilized. Now, seeing that the Government have purchased the timber areas, I hold that they will not be justified in launching the new venture, the effect of which must be to put a stop to activities at the Government “mills. The Minister has stated that, on account of the cessation of operations during the past few months, there are large quantities of timber on hand in the forest areas. A Disposals Board has been appointed. It is to be given authority to sell surplus stock, upon which, the Minister has admitted, there must be heavy losses.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– To realize, subject te the utilization requirements of the Commission.

Mr CHARLTON:

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– I think the House should have been given definite reasons for his discharge, and then the Government would have been able to take the full responsiblity off its own shoulders. If we are only told that he was discharged because of some technical fault in his appointment, we are rendered helpless. During the whole work of the War Service Homes Commission there seems to have been a lack of coordination - no definite scheme of preparation. At the beginning a tentative arrangement with the Commonwealth Bank was suggested; and, if my memory is right, the evidence given before the Public Accounts Committee shows that the Minister interviewed the manager of that Bank and discussed the position with him. An agreement was then arrived at that all the homes required should be built by the Bank, which should finance the scheme, leaving the Government to decide the eligibility of the applicants, the purchase of land, and the general lines of policy. If such an arrangement had been made from the beginning, and adhered i to, I venture to say that, as experience has shown, we should have escaped much muddle, confusion, and loss. Although it is true that some of the houses built by the Bank have given rise to complaint, it has secured the erection of an enormous number of satisfactory houses, and has always kept the average cost below £700, which was the maximum originally fixed. If we had stuck to that arrangement, we should have saved £100 on each house; but, unfortunately, the Government departed from it, and started negotiations with the various State Savings Banks. Later on the Government went again to the Commonwealth Bank; but it was found that, owing to the completed negotiations, the work had to be redistributed. Subsequently, the War Service Homes Commission determined to build homes on its own account in addition.

In connexion with the appointment of the War Service Homes Commissioner, there are matters that call for explanation and comment, especially in view of the absence of any reasons beyond the technical one to which I have referred for his dismissal. It has been said that the Minister fca- Repatriation (Senator E. D. Millen) was unaware of the fact that the Commissioner was insolvent at the time of his appointment; but the facts, as stated by the Assistant Minister (Mr. Rodgers) in June of this year, do not bear out that view. That honorable gentleman pointed out that applications were invited, and the late Commissioner applied, and was appointed to the position. Before he was appointed, the Minister for Repatriation, in order to obtain some information as to his eligibility, caused three telegrams of inquiry to be sent to different men of standing in Australia. Three replies were received to these inquiries, two of. them favorable, and the third as follows : -

Your telegram yesterday. Party is brave and energetic. Had long experience building contracts, North Queensland. Ability lies in that direction, and good with men rather than as an administrator. During absence Front was made insolvent under old mining guarantee. Judge expressed sympathy with absentee, whereupon Bank of Australasia discontinued pressure. Consider fill outside position admirably.

The appointment was made in March, and that telegram was sent on the 2nd February. We all know what happens when a person is asked to send a testimonial of the kind; no one ever writes and says that an applicant for any given position is incompetent. In this case, the telegram stated first that the applicant was a builder, good for outside work, but no good as an administrator, and that he was an insolvent. According to the estimate of the Government itself, the expenditure upon War Service Homes would run into £50,000,000; and we are asked to believe that the Minister in charge, who had the appointment of the man who would control this expenditure, did not bother to see the replies to the telegrams he had sent asking for credentials. We can only conclude either that the Minister was culpably negligent in regard to the matter, or that he knew at the time that the Commissioner was an insolvent.

It has been alleged in this chamber that all the activities with which we are now dealing have failed because returned soldiers have been placed in charge.

Mr Anstey:

– Because business and commercial men have been in charge - and on the “ make “ !

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– It has been said that the failure arises from the fact that returned soldiers have been placed in charge.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– Who says that?

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– That statement has been made time after time in this House.

Mr Charlton:

– I have always qualified my remarks by saying that I have no objection to a returned man .if he is qualified for a position.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– I am not referring to remarks made to-day, but to remarks made previously to the effect that because of the appointment bf returned soldiers we have had incompetence and muddle.- When the appointment of the Commissioner was made in March, 1919, the war had already been over three months; and surely, amongst the 400,000 men who left Australia for the Front, there could have been found those capable of carrying on this work successfully. Indeed, many very capable returned soldiers had already done a great deal of work on the other side in the actual repatriation of their comrades from England. The position of Commissioner might very well have been offered to one of those men. I admit that the Government are not to blame to the extent that many people may think, because, unfortunately, during the war there was a tendency when a man proved himself a bit of a “ dud “ “ on the other side,” or, from various causes, had reached the limit of his usefulness, to send him back -with some sort of decoration, and at the height of the war fever such a man might return without’ the public having any means of judging whether his record of service was good; mediocre, or bad, or whether his honours were due to the length of time he had served, personal bravery, or administrative capacity.

Mr Bell:

– Does the honorable member say that “ duds “ were sent back and received appointments here?

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– Men were sent back from Europe because they were not doing their job there, and, indeed, that seems to be a well-established English Government custom to terminate a career, after a failure, with some recognition in the way of honours.

Mr Austin Chapman:

– The honorable member is casting a serious reflection.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– I stand by my statement .that such things did occur. Apparently, everybody admits at the present time that an unfortunate selection was made for the position of War Ser- vice Homes Commissioner. Whatever Lieutenant-Colonel Walker’s military qualifications may have been, he apparently undertook, in the Commissionership, a job that -was beyond his capabilities. I admit at once that no ordinary man could have handled it successfully; and I agree with the contention already urged here to-day that this House erred in the beginning when it fixed a salary of £1,500 for a man who was to ultimately expend £50,000.000 within ten years. At that salary, the Government could not expect to have such a wide field of selection as they would have had if a greater inducement had been offered. For that limitation, the Government are no more responsible than is Parliament itself. But, unfortunately, there seems to have been a continuous succession of unsatisfactory appointments. In one instance, we are told that the appointee “is a good outside man, able to handle men, but may not be much of an administrator.” It is not to the discredit of any man to say that he has some qualifications and not others. In each of the States Deputy Commissioners were appointed who were not qualified for the job. The Assistant Minister (Mr. Rodgers) read to the Committee to-day a list of the officers in each State, and in practically every State there have been at least four Deputy Commissioners, whilst in Tasmania there have been six or seven. From September, 1919, to March, 1921, there were nearly as many Deputy Commissioners in that State as there were seasons. Not only does there seem to have been extreme ill-fortune in the choice of Deputy Commissioners, but in Tasmania the chief clerk was dismissed, the accountant was dismissed,^ the subaccountant resigned, and there had to be a general cleaning up of the office. Such a number of incompetents in a small office like that of the Commission in Tasmania, where not a great number of houses were built, is proof that proper care was not exercised in the selection of officers. [Extension of time granted,]

Mr Fowler:

– It is hardly fair to say that they were all dismissed on account of incompetence.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– Within eighteen months of the creation of the Commission, it came into conflict with the Commonwealth Bank, apparently for no other reason than that the Bank was getting through its work expeditiously and well. If there was any other reason, I should like to hear it. After a certain date, the Bank was practically debarred from carrying on its work in connexion with War Service Homes. On 28th June, 1920, the Minister for Repatriation (Senator E. D. Millen) is reported in the Melbourne Argus to have stated that 767 homes had been completed, and of those the Commonwealth Bank had built 731, and the Commissioner 36 - that in spite of the fact that the Commission had been operating for three or four months longer than the Commonwealth Bank. That friction between the Bank and the Commissioner had a most unfortunate result on the whole of the operations undertaken since. Originally it was agreed that the Commissioner should build on the group system, and that the Bank should undertake the building of isolated homes. But after a time it became difficult for any applicant whose house was to be built by the Bank to get a certificate of eligibility from the Department within anything like a reasonable time, and many who had approved of the Bank’s design and were prepared to enter into a contract with it for the erection of a home, were actually canvassed, when they applied for their certificates of eligibility, to have their work carried out by the Commissioner. That, in itself, was not a serious matter if other things had been equal. But the Commonwealth Bank had at its disposal a great staff and a high degree of organization, whereas the Commission was only building up its staff. The Bank and its architects were able to keep in continuous, touch with the contractors, each of whom had his small organization and gang of regular workers. The result was that the Bank had no difficulty in getting tenders for jobs, and was able always to build under the £700 originally fixed by this House as the maximum amount that should be available for each, home. The Commissioner, on the other hand, largely because of the fact that, necessarily, at the beginning, his staff was not skilled or well trained, appointed inspectors who were very inquisitorial, and who interfered so much with the contractors that after a time few would continue their jobs. I have met in Sydney a man who claimed to be the only contractor who finished a group of houses for the Commissioner. AH other contract jobs were thrown up because the contractors could get no satisfaction. Then the Commissioner decided to embark upon the day-labour system, and he drafted a huge building programme, which necessitated the acquisition of tremendous stores of material. He bought millions of feet of timber, millions of bricks, hundreds of baths, and so on, until his operations created a shortage of building materials, and the price of building rose, not only against the soldiers, but against everybody who wanted to erect a house. Instead of getting the contractors to look after the construction work, he entered into competition with them, and had to pay more than the award rates in order to keep workmen on the jobs. This made labour more difficult to get, and, because the Commissioner did not, as an ordinary business man would have done, and as the Commonwealth Bank and the State instrumentalities in South Australia, Western Australia, New South Wales, and Queensland do - arrange for their supplies in the ordinary business way - he found it increasingly difficult to get building material, and so commenced to force up the prices. The operations of the Commissioner constitute one of the principal reasons why building has been so expensive in recent years. He purchased huge quantities of material. All over the country, depots were established, and because it was impossible to keep them under proper supervision much of the material deteriorated through exposure to weather, and quantities of it were stolen. Two or three months ago one could see at Concord millions of bricks which had been acquired by the Commissioner. At Belmore enamel baths were being used by boys for wickets.

Mr Riley:

– New baths?

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– Yes, and huge losses were occurring by the continual exposure of this material to the weather. One of the Melbourne newspapers published a photograph of a huge stack of oregon purchased by the Commissioner - sufficient to last for two or three years.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– That Oregon was bought without reference to the Minister and without his approval.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– I should like some explanation as to how it was possible for the Commissioner to expend hundreds of thousands of pounds without the approval of the Minister. When this Parliament increased the maximum per house to £800 the Commonwealth Bank received instructions that it was to sign no more contracts. It had show that it could build cheaper than the Commissioner to the extent of from £100 to £200 per house. It had always built below the maximum of £700, and often was producing a better house than the Comm. ‘-v.er built for a larger amount. The Commissioner having declared that he could not build a house for £700, Parliament increased the amount to £800. As soon as that was done, the organization - the Commonwealth Bank - which up to that time, had built hundreds of homes more than any other authority in the Commonwealth, was told that it could sign no more contracts. I should like an explanation as to why that organization, which belongs to the Commonwealth, which conducts its operations for the benefit of the country, and whose profits belong to the Australian people, was debarred from undertaking further War Service Homes work. I do not know whether there is any other reason than that they have done the job in such a way that they have put the other organizations to shame.

Mr Anstey:

– There is no law under which the Governor of the Bank could be prevented from doing it.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– They would not give him any contracts. He had to obtain an eligibility certificate for each man, and none was sent.

Mr Austin Chapman:

– Is it inferred or stated that the Commissioner prevented him from getting those certificates?

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– Even before an actual embargo was placed on his building operations, there was difficulty in securing eligibility certificates. Men who had been desirous of getting houses built by the Commonwealth Bank found that they were canvassed when they went to the Commissioner’s office to have the work done by the Commissioner. Letters can be produced which bear out that statement. Not only was there friction between the Commonwealth Bank and the Commissioner, but very soon there came about friction between the

Commissioner and the contractors, who, at last, would not work for him. The Commissioner seemed to have a faculty for quarrelling with people, and at last could not get materials. Then he suddenly came on the market as a big sawmiller.

The saw-milling operations of the Commission deserve a great deal more light than the Minister has shed on them. It has been said that because certain purchases have been re-sold to Mr. Driver, they must possess .the value given for them. But what is the basis of the sale to Mr. Driver? Is it not a fact that practically the whole of the capital on which he works was supplied by the Government or the Commission?

Mr Gregory:

– He started under an agreement giving him the right of purchase.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– And he is working under some agreement at the present time.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– He is working under an agreement to purchase, and has paid certain moneys, and continues to make payments by deductions from his deliveries, while a final payment is provided for.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– For some reason or other, the Commissioner thought that he would require to have many millions of feet of timber under his control each year, and he therefore determined to go in for saw-milling on a big scale. He was not content to buy one big proposition, and bought two. He bought these two big propositions in Queensland without regard to the fact that he had made a contract under which he was supplied with 6,000,000 feet of timber a year. He bought at a time when it would have been possible for him to enter into an agreement with practically any of the sawmillers for supplies at rates about 10 per cent, lower than those charged to the general public, and such an agreement would not have compelled him to find any capital. But instead of doing that, he tough t huge tracts of timber country in Queensland, and timber mills, and took all the risks of the saw-milling business, when he could have made a contract at rates which would have slid up and down with market prices. He bought timber propositions which, in my opinion, the Government will be lucky to get rid of even at considerable loss. I said last year that, if it could get Mr. Lahey to take his proposition back, with £50,000 to boot, it would do better than by continuing to hold it. The reason given for purchasing these properties was that, if the price of timber continued as high as it was at the time - when it was at its peak - and if the timber was there that was said to be there, and were all cut and hauled to the station and utilized within ten years, the saving would be just about equivalent to the interest on the money invested and at risk during the whole period. But what has happened ? Having bought these properties, the Commission came to an arrangement with Messrs. Lahey, who were patriotic men, to continue working the mills and keep them in order. There were certain settlements in their immediate neighbourhood which it was desired to maintain by providing constant employment for the. workers residing in them. But, having allowed the mills to be worked for a couple of months, the Commissioner shut them down, and they have been idle ever since. The logs were not pulled in from the bush, nor was much of the sawn timber that was there sold or utilized.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– The whole of the logs have been sold.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– They must have been sold at a considerable loss, in view of what they were worth when cut eighteen months ago.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– They were well sold.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– I have had, unfortunately, a good deal of experience with pine saw-milling, and I know that if a log is left lying for six months in the bush, the greater part of its value is destroyed by the borer. This proposition could have been sold satisfactorily four or five months ago, but apparently the Minister has turned down the offer. I have asked what would have been lost had the sale taken place, and I think that members should have that information. I am satisfied that the longer we keep these propositions the greater will be the loss in connexion with them. I think that there will be a bigger loss on the Brett proposition than the Minister estimates, ‘because it is in a different category. It is a proposition that has been worked for a good many years.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– We have already been offered a substantial profit on one of the Brett properties.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– I arn speaking of the whole proposition. For the sake of the financial position of the Commonwealth I would have liked the Government to accept an offer fori both propositions, even though it showed no profit, or, indeed, a loss of £25,000 or £50,000. What is going to be the future of the propositions? Are we going to hold them indefinitely ? Is the National Government to become a saw-miller, or is it going to get out of the business at the earliest passible moment?

One aspect of the timber question which has been, a good deal ventilated in the press is the offer of Mr. Caldwell of certain properties in the Islands. I think that the Minister rather missed the point on which Mr. Caldwell has been insisting, which is that his bona fides have been impugned in a certain report which was put before Parliament. Whether he was or was not the actual holder of an option, unquestionably he appeared to hold it, not merely in his own estimation, but also in that of the Resident Commissioner.

Mr Prowse:

– But he- was not the holder of an option.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– He certainly appeared to be the holder of one, and it is very unusual for the recommendation of a Resident Commissioner in the South Seas to be passed over as was this recommendation . A definite recommendation was over-ridden by the High Commissioner for the Western Pacific. What Mr. Caldwell wishes to have recognised is that he did not try to deceive any one; that he really appeared to have an option.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– Do you say that I admitted this morning that there was a recommendation by the Commissioner in favour of Mr. Caldwell ?

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– It is the case, whether you made the admission or not.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– I read a letter regarding the claims of Fairley, Rigby and Co.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– You said that the offer to them had been overlooked by the High Commissioner.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– That the High Commissioner for the Western. Pacific said that it had been overlooked.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– I pass away from the subject of timber to deal with other operations of the War Service

Homes Commissioner. As a land buyer he seems to have suffered from a form of megalomania, and bought four times as much land as he has been able to build on. There has been practically a land boom during the last few years, and, therefore, much of the land was bought at very high prices, and a great deal of what has been bought, and some of that which is being built on, is very unsatisfactory.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– Can the honorable member say the number of allotments now available ?

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– I know that 2,302 acres were bought, and that 632 acres have been built on.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– Less than 1,000 allotments of those bought remain unbuilt on.

Mr Hughes:

– Does the honorable member say that the price of land has gone down ?

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– I do not say that; I say that the land was bought at the top of the market in many cases, and unnecessarily ahead of requirements, and that in many instances it is totally unsuitable. For example, land purchased near Newcastle is converted into a swamp whenever an inch of rain falls, and other land, some of which has been built on, was the subject of mining concessions, which have had to be bought out at a cost greater than the original price of the land. Then at Toowoomba, against local advice, land was bought in a very expensive suburb, and its price was so high that there was not nearly enough money left to build suitable houses on it. The locality is one in which it would be absurd to put anything but good houses.

Mr Hughes:

– What is the highest price per foot that has been given for land?

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– I should like to know what is the acreage of the land held by the Commission? The Minister assured the Committee this morning that there, was to be an alteration of policy, and that henceforth the building of War

Service Homes in country centres would be in something like a, reasonable proportion to the number that have been built in the capital cities. As illustrating what has been the policy of the Commission, I would point out that, although thirty-one applications for the building of homes at Burnie have been received, not one has yet been constructed. Here is a letter which I received in September last from a returned soldier living at Kempsey, a big country town in my electorate -

DEAR Siu, -

He my War Service Home, I am sorry to trouble you again in this matter, but I don’t seem to be any further ahead. I have been fooled about with the Department for so long that I have almost given up hope. I want to point out specially to you that not one house has been built in this town by the Department, yet we read of the millions spent on soldiers’ homes. . . .

The writer goes on to say that his proposition is a sound one. He has a block of land worth £200, and he wants to have a. house erected on it. He mentions that he was told twelve months ago not to bother with the Commission as it would only fool him. When I was travelling to Sydney last Saturday I met a returned man who while at the Front had lost a leg. He told me that for six or seven months he had been trying to induce the Commission to build a home for him. I advised him to make arrangement’s with the State Savings Bank, which I said would probably give him what he required at least two years earlier than he would get it from the Commission.

The position is that a great deal of land in excess of the present requirements of the Commission has been purchased; that it has large quantities of timber on hand, that timber areas and saw-mills of which we are unable to make use have been acquired, that material is lying about, and that there are many unfinished homes. We have also the naive admission by the Minister that the Commission, as such, has practically failed in the whole of its operations, and is quite unsatisfactory.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– I have made no such statement.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– The confession made this morning by the honorable gentleman seemed to cover almost everything. There is an abundance of evidence that the greater the activities of the Commission in this direction at the present time the greater are the possibilities of fraud. It would appear from statements published in the press that there is evidence of collusion in the handling of much material.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member ought to be specific. We have had quite enough general statements of that kind. The time has arrived when specific statements should be made.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– When I speak, later on, I shall quote specific instances.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– And we shall deal with them when the honorable member gives them.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– The information has not been hidden ; it has been published in the daily press. I should like to know whether the Commission is taking any steps to put an end to the trouble. Is it inquiring into the possibility of collusion in connexion with the sale of land?

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member said a few minutes ago that we were not building homes in country districts. As a matter of fact, nearly 3,400 homes have been erected in the country.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– The figures recently supplied by the Minister regarding houses built by the Commission were as follows: - New South Wales - Sydney, 1,785; in the rest of the State, including those built in Newcastle, 447. Victoria - Melbourne, 986; rest of the State, 108. Queensland - Brisbane, 1,037; rest of the State, 301. Western Australia - Perth, 465; in the rest of the State, 51. South Australia - Adelaide, 82 ; and only one in the country districts. Tasmania. - city, 250; rest of the State, 22.

I think we have reached a stage at which this drain on the public resources should be stopped. We ought to get down at once to proper business methods, and reduce to a minimum the cost of administering all these huge undertakings. The Minister said this morning that as the result of an arrangement made in South Australia 1,502 houses had been built there at an average cost of £645, inclusive of the cost of land, without involving the Commission in the expenditure of one penny, by way of administrative charges.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– Does not that show an effort to bring about economy? Will not the honorable gentleman give the Commonwealth Government any credit for that?

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– I was just about to do so. I commend the Government for what they have done, but they should not stop there. They should arrange a system whereby there could be brought about a similar condition of affairs in the building of homes throughout the Commonwealth. Administration at present is not costing very much less than at the height of the building boom a year or so ago.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– Only a matter of 5U per cent. less.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– The remedy should be to deal in drastic fashion with the housing under construction, and with the material which has already been purchased. In order to do that, the Government should get hold of a properly qualified commercial man - they may call him a Director-General, or what they will, but I would prefer to call him a manager - to arrange for the disposal in the shortest possible time of the whole of the present undertakings. This official should be placed in charge of the houses at present in course of construction, so that they might be completed, not by day labour, but by reputable contracting firms in each of the States. Tenders should be called to finish all the work outstanding. If it should be considered that, in any one of the States, there are too many jobs to be let to one contractor, that State should be divided into sections - north, south, east, and west - and tenders called accordingly.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member is recommending what has been done. There has been a cessation of building under the day-labour system. No daylabour building job has been let since the Government’s announcement of policy.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– Is there any day-labour job proceeding at all ?

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– No, except in regard to the finishing off of just a few which had been started in that manner.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– It would be well to finish them on such a system as would afford an accurate knowledge of when their completion might be expected, and of what their cost would be. It is notorious that many buildings have been in hand for almost a year; I understand that some have been in course of construction for even longer. I know, personally, of one house which has been waiting for several mouths or more to be roofed.

The large stocks of materials of all kinds on hand should be sold at public auction at the best price obtainable, and the losses written off. All contracts entered into for the supply of material should be terminated on the best possible terms. Estates which have been purchased and have not yet been built upon should be sold by public auction. The soldier, after all, has a right to some consideration concerning where he shall reside. I do not believe in group settlements; the soldiers themselves disapprove of the principle, at any rate, in large groups. It should be possible to create a land purchase sub-department to deal with the question of buying, and to inspect separate blocks. I repeat that any estates on hand and not yet built upon should be disposed of without delay. The forests which have been purchased by the Commission should be sold by auction. The time and other conditions of the sale might well be left to the discretion of a, competent head, so that there would- be as little loss as possible. These are the main lines on which I suggest the reconstruction of the Department as regards present commitments. My proposals, if accepted, would permit the muddle to be cleaned up, and a fresh start made. The continuance of the Government in saw-milling activities is bound to result in further loss. All over Australia there are the white wrecks of dismantled mills. Everywhere there are broken firms. It would often appear that the larger the amount of capital behind these saw-milling concerns the greater has been the mess, for saw-milling requires personal supervision in order to insure success.

I maintain that the obligations of the Government to the returned soldier must be fulfilled. Arrangements have been made, I understand, with the Governments of South Australia and Western Australia whereby the War Service Homes required in those States are to be built in conjunction with the Workers’ Homes Departments already existing there. Presumably, the Federal Government will continue to carry out the building of homes for soldiers in the remaining four States. This may be done in either of two ways - firstly, by handing over the task to the Governments and their existing Departments, as in the case of South Australia and Western Australia; or, secondly, by continuing to carry on under the control of the Federal Government. If the latter course is adopted - which would probably be the better one - certain methods should < be strictly adhered to. There should be a competent Commissioner, given full power and authority. In each State an Eligibility Department should be formed which would examine the claims of applicants. If these were found satisfactory, a certificate should be issued entitling the applicants to the benefits conferred by the Act. A Land Department should bc created. This organization would deal with transfers of land, the purchase of single building sites, and the transaction of legal matters.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member is aware, of course, that there is already a legal section actively at work.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– A branch should be created under the title of the Purchase and Mortgage Department. This would supervise the purchase of already erected houses, and deal -with the settling of mortgages and the like. In my view, the purchase of existing houses should be restricted as much as possible. There should be a Designing Department, in charge of a competent architect, and in each State competitive designs should be invited from returned soldier architects and others. I suggest that these designs should comprise twenty-four types of houses, suitable for the particular State in which they are to be built. Professional experience has proved that the maximum number of designs necessary does not exceed twelve for city houses and twelve for country types. The designs should b© judged by competent adjudicators before being accepted by the Department, and a substantial premium should be offered for the best batch of designs, the Department having the power to select the twenty-four best from among the total number submitted.

– The position is, if honorable members will allow me to state it briefly, that I know no authority whatsoever which will permit any one who is not a member of this Chamber to ad dress honorable members from the floor of the House. It is competent for any one, with the permission of honorable members, to address the House from the Bar, and I know of no Parliament where that rule has been departed from, except, I think, the South African and the Victorian Parliaments, and then only in the case of Bills of which they are in .charge. Section 18 of the Victorian Constitution. Act Amendment Act provides -

Notwithstanding anything contained in the Constitution Act or in this Act, any responsible Minister of the Crown who is a member of the Council or of the Assembly may, at any time, with the consent of the House of Parliament of which he is not a member, sit in such House for the purpose only of explaining the provisions of any Bill relating to or connected with any Department administered by him, and may take part in any debate or discussion therein on such Bill, but he shall not vote except in the House of which he is an elected member.

Mr HUGHES:

– I am talking about a motion that the Minister be heard, not as to a discussion on what he says after he is heard. I do not care whether ho should be heard at the Bar or not. We cannot afford to waste time on that point. Tell me what I am to do.

Mr Charlton:

– I cannot tell you what you are to do, but I cannot say that there would be no objection taken on this side. The matter would be debated.

Mr HUGHES:

– Surely the House can say by division, or on the voices, whether it will hear the Minister. If it will not hear him, that is the end of it. If it will, let us hear him.

Mr CONSIDINE:
Barrier

– I understand that the Prime Minister has not submitted a definite motion, therefore

– I understood the Prime Minister to say that on account of certain remarks made by the Assistant

Minister for Repatriation, it was necessary to hear a statement of the case from Senator Millen’s point of view. However, to come to the general principle, it has happened occasionally, I believe, that persons guilty of offences against Parliament, or against a particular Chamber, have been called to the Bar and reproved. That is a practice which has much antiquity behind it, and to which I cannot object; but it is a principle of our representative government that no persons shall take part in a debate in this Chamber, or influence its conclusions in any way, except .those who have been sent hers by the direct mandate of the constituencies. I object also to the suggestion that, even occasionally, a person of standing, as was instanced by the honorable member for Balaclava (Mr. Watt) as occurring in the State of Victoria, might come to the Bar of a Chamber and give his views on certain questions. That is a very grave practice to establish, in view of the danger that an eloquent orator may seriously mislead the deliberations of those who have been sent to Parliament from the constituencies. On that point I take my stand, along with the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Charlton), against the establishment of a precedent which I believe to be unconstitutional and undemocratic, and likely to lead to grave difficulties, ‘and dangers in the future.

Mr HUGHES:
Prime Minister and Attorney-General · Bendigo · NAT

– In view of the opinions that have been ex- pressed, it is idle for me to press my suggestion that Senator Millen be heard, either on the floor or at the Bar of the House. I, therefore, withdraw the proposal.

page 13589

QUESTION

ESTIMATES, 1921-1922

In Committee of Supply (Consideration resumed, vide page 13583) :

Division 156 (Repatriation Commission), £2,529,429

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

.- I feel sure that members of the House, and the public outside, when they read the speeches made to-day by the Prime Minister (Mr. Hughes), the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Charlton), and the Leader of the Country party (Dr. Earle Page), will say that there ought to be a thorough investigation into the matter that we are now discussing. On the 13th May of this year, wishful toknow the amount of money that, in my opinion, our soldiers had been robbed of, I asked this question -

What is the total amount claimed by the Kirkpatrick firm of architects for fees respecting plans for returned soldiers’ homes?

The reply was -

The claims submitted to date for preparation of plans, specifications, and supervision of construction total £44,535.

We have been told by the Leader of the Country party that there are twelve standardized plans for the cities,, and twelve for the country; and I am confident that such plans could be obtained for, at most, £500. Mr. Nahum Barnet, one of the best architects in Victoria, whose name is known all over Australia, has, to my knowledge, prepared plans much more difficult than those for soldiers’ homes, and accepted £20 as a fee. At such a rate we could obtain twentyfive plans for £500. I maintain that the Kirkpatrick firm has robbed the soldiers of Australia; and I may say that one of the leading men of the firm was of the necessary age, but never went to the Front. Why do I speak so severely? No trade union or other body of men showed so much loyalty to the British race as did the organization of the architects. When those architect soldiers returned to Melbourne, they were given a reception, and each of the gentlemen who organized that reception had to take two guests. Never has any trade union or “any other body set such a splendid example. Do honorable members think for a moment that if some of these loyal architects had been asked to prepare the plans they, would have robbed the soldiers of £44,000? And why was such an amount of money paid ? I accuse Sir Denison Miller, the manager of the Commonwealth Bank, of favouring his blood relatives, or relatives by ‘ marriage - that is how this infamy was perpetrated. Ask any architect if such fees are reasonable. There is not the slightest doubt that, at any rate, twelve standardized plans could have been, got for £500. I do not blame the Assistant Minister (Mr. Rodgers), as that gentleman well knows’, but somebody mint be to blame. I have never yet been able) to ascertain the relationship between Sir Denison Miller, the manager of the Com-monwealth Bank, and the Kirkpatrick firm, and we are still ignorant of the extent of the infamy. I say, advisedly, that if ever there was a clear case of nepotism this appears to be one. The next question I asked was -

What is the total sum paid to this firm for such plans?

The reply was -

It is understood that the Commonwealth Bank has made certain payments to the architects mentioned in respect of these claims, but, so far, the claims between the Bank and the Commission have not been adjusted.

I do not know whether there has been an adjustment yet. The manager of the Commonwealth Bank ought to be under the control of this Parliament, for, in the words of the late Lord Forrest, “he has too much power.”. Even the exTrea.surer (Sir Joseph Cook1) acknowledged, in this chamber, that he had no control - in other words, that Sir Denison Miller can do almost whatever he pleases. So much for that infamy. The Institute of Victorian Architects and the kindred bodies in the other States, if they had been applied to, would gladly have provided plans; but this big Kirkpatrick firm, boosted in monetary power by the manager of the Commonwealth Bank, has taken advantage of the returned soldiers.

As to the suggestion made by the Prime Minister, I regard the custom of calling people to the Bar as an idiotic one, dating from almost primeval times; but there is no great difference between the Bar and the Table. It will be remembered that the great Cobbett, for some aspersions on the British Parliament, was made to kneel down at the Bar and tender a humble apology. However, he was man enough to remark, as he rose and dusted his knees, ‘ ‘ I always said this was a dirty House,” and thus he got level. Such an absurd custom should be allowed to sink into oblivion.

Mr. Ashworth, the President of the Employers Federation has made accusations so serious that it behoves the Prime Minister (Mr. Hughes) and Senator E. D. Millen to demand an inquiry by a High Court Judge. It has been stated that an inquiry is being continued by the Public Accounts Committee, but I have ascertained that the final report of that Committee was handed in .the other day. Min- isters are accused of malignant perversion of the truth, and I demand, as a member, that the matter shall . be threshed out before a Judge. Had we agreed that Senator E. D. Millen should appear at the Bar of the House, I certainly should have asked that Mr. Ashworth, who, without the protection of any rights or privileges, is making statements in the press day after day, should also be called. The other day I asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the serious charges made, he would consider the advisability of appointing a High Court Judge to inquire into them; but, notwithstanding that further charges are being made, the right honorable gentleman has not seen any reason to change his attitude. Even yesterday there were further charges; indeed, the columns of the press are reeking with charges against this most mismanaged Department. In the old days if, under similar circumstances, a Government had refused to face the music, Ministers would have handed in their resignations. Mr. Ashworth was never on my side in politics. Apart from our difference of political opinion, I have always found him a straight, white man. He has earned a great deal of credit from those who know him by the position he has taken up in this matter. It is up to the Prime Minister (Mr. Hughes) and the Minister for Repatriation (Senator E. D. Millen) to appoint a Commission to inquire into his charges. The Minister (Mr. Rodgers) spoke of an application for timber areas in the Solomons which was made by Messrs. Fairley, Rigby, and Company on the 26th October, 1913, which is over eight years ago. The Leader of the Country party (Dr. Earle Page) was in error in the statement he . made in connexion, with this matter, as is shown by the letter from Mr. Barnett, Acting Resident Commissioner, Tulagi, to Fairley, Rigby, and Company, dated 1st May, 1915, from which I quote the following : -

The matter of your application for a licence to cut, fell, . and remove kauri timber from the Island of Vanikoro has been inadvertently overlooked.

That was two years after the application was made. I visited the Solomon Islands en route to Rabaul, and made inquiries there from Government officers, planters, and others whom I met about that unfortunate man, Mr. J. T. Caldwell. Without exception, they all considered him a very much ill-used man. This was verified when, later on, by chance of circumstances, I decided to call again at the Solomon

Islands, where I stayed altogether between three and four days. I asked the Resident Commissioners at each of the four big places I stopped at, Tulagi, Phasi, Macambo, and another, the name of which I cannot at present recall, whether when a Resident Commissioner recommended an application for a mining or timber lease it was generally accepted. Not one of them knew of a case in which an application so recommended had been refused. I was told that when their applications for leases had been recommended by Resident Commissioners the companies concerned frequently went to work straightway. A highly educated gentleman, of great intelligence and a barrister by profession, was sent out from England as Land Commissioner to these islands in order to try to put matters straight. He assured me that land leases and tenured in the islands were most fearfully mixed up, and the confusion had been growing for a number of years. If he is able within four or five years to clear up these matters, he will have performed a task equal to the cleansing of the Augean stable. A son of our highly respected and regarded chief of the Science and Industry Bureau, and lately Commonwealth Statistician, is over there giving assistance. I had conversations with him, as I had with other officials. It will be found at page 13205 of Hansard for 24th November last that the honorable member for Perth, amongst other things, said -

The person immediately concerned was Mr. J. T. Caldwell, who mentioned that he had some, important correspondence. He was asked during the course of his examination why he did not produce it, and he said that it was in the possession of the honorable member for Corio (Mr. Lister). After some little difficulty the Committee obtained it from that gentleman. It was examined by myself, the Secretary to the Committee, and probably by individual members also, for it was made available to all. It consisted for the most part of a series of letters addressed to various members of Parliament, and containing somewhat rambling and wild statements of the character that honorable members receive by the bushel from people with alleged grievances.

I ask honorable members whether they think that a Judge would hand correspondence to his Clerk of Courts and would refuse to admit it in evidence. We know very well that he would admit such a letter in evidence, whether it contained statements which, in the opinion of the honorable member for Perth, were rambling and wild statements or not. “Probably” is very indefinite, and I must say that I found the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee prepared to throw every obstacle in the way of my obtaining information, even though the evidence to which reference is made was taken publicly and in the presence of representatives of the press. Three legal gentlemen desired to obtain certain parts of the evidence, and I, as member for Melbourne, made a, request for it on their behalf, but because one of those three gentlemen is not a persona grata with the Chairman of the Public Acconnts Committee, the request was refused.

Mr.Fowler. - I object to that statement. I was acting all through under the instructions of the Public Accounts Committee.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– Possibly so, and perhaps the honorable member was so acting when he refused me the right to

– I propose to quote a letter which I can let the honorable member have later, and he can do what he likes with it outside. It is from’ one of the legal gentlemen, who, I believe, is not persona grata with the honorable member for Perth. He writes-

Dear Sir, - I observe in Mansard, No. 103, page 13205, that Mr. Fowler states “ that the person immediately concerned was Mr. J. T. Caldwell, who mentioned that he had some correspondence.” Although this correspondence was official, he has* to say that there was nothing in the letters which he considered worth placing on record. This official correspondence ought not to have been suppressed.* Just imagine a Judge suppressing official correspondence demanded to be put in evidence by a claimant because he did not appreciate the literary style of the writer. He states “ that the action of the honorable gentleman (Senator E. D. Millen) was correct and honorable in every regard.” This is an* opinion (although stated as a fact), not founded on any evidence or any statements made on oath by the individual concerned.* He states it as a fact where there were no facts to justify the statement. He states “ that if he ( the Minister) erred at all, it was, in his opinion, in showing undue consideration to the person who tried to inveigle the War Service Homes Commissioner into a transaction in regard to property over which the would-be vendor has acquired no rights whatever.*

Mr Fowler:

– I rise to a point of order. I do not know, sir, whether you have been listening to the honorable member, but, if so, you must have heard him read a statement just now to the effect that I had been guilty of a calculated and deliberate untruth. I ask whether it is in order for the honorable member to repeat a statement of that kind made against any member of the Committee.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr Watkins:

– The honorable member is not in order in making charges of that kind against any honorable member.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– I am not -making charges.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN The honorable member is not in order in reading such a letter.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– I withdraw the statement objected to.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN.And the letter ?

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– No; I withdraw the statement to which exception has been taken. I consider that the letter is quite pertinent to this debate on the operations of the War Service Homes Commission. It refers to the case of a man who has bean deeply wronged by what I consider a conspiracy, and in connexion with whose case perjury has been committed, and the honorable member for Perth was

Passages offensive to an honorable member deleted by direction of Mr. Speaker. in the chair when the perjury was committed.

Mr Fleming:

– The honorable member does not know what he is talking about.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– These documents are now in the possession of the Department. The letter from which I was quoting proceeds -

So far from Mr. Caldwell trying to inveigle the War Service Homes Commissioner, he was forced by the persistence of the authorized representative of the War Service Homes Commissioner against his wish, and against his better judgment, to negotiate with them, and he did not do so until (as Mr. Caldwell’s telegram to Brisbane shows) after he was urged by his principals in the syndicate to negotiate with him against his own wish. The fact is that he was inveigled by the War Service Homes Commission, through their authorized representative, to negotiate, and the facts show this. Why Mr. Fowler should make this . . . statement is difficult to realize, and it is quite opposed to the facts, as will be proved by perusal of the evidence.

Mr Fowler:

– I made that statement under instructions from the Public Works Committee.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– Of course, and the honorable member made a lot of statements that he should not have made. The letter proceeds -

The statement that Mr. Caldwell had acquired no rights whatever is a . . . Mr. Caldwell had a vested interest in his application, which was lodged, and which had been recommended. His rights were, therefore, vested, but were destroyed by the deliberate action of officials who acted with the consent of Senator Millen in destroying same, and trying to secure them for the Government. Senator Milieu persisted in trying to secure’ the same for months, and has never yet disavowed it. … I will prove the above facts and conclusions before a High Court Judge*

Mr Hector Lamond:

– I rise to a point of order. I should like to have your ruling, sir, whether it is competent for an honorable member to repeat slanders of that kind against any member of the Committee, on the authority of some person outside this House.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN.The honorable member for Melbourne is not in order in repeating slanders against any member of the Committee from statements made by some one outside Parliament.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– Then I will withdraw the last statement quoted.

Mr Hector Lamond:

– How can that letter he put in, unless we know who is the writer of it ?

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– The writer is J. Woolf, and the honorable member for Perth took advantage of his position to be unfair to him. Here is another letter from Mr. Caldwell: - 2 Bridge-street, Sydney, 19th February, 1921.

The Right Hon. W. M. Hughes, P.O., M.H.R.,

Prime Minister, Melbourne

Sir,

With reference to your letter of the 5th inst., I observed in the Argus of 5th February that the Government has announced the appointment of a Business Board, in addition to the Parliamentary Joint Committee which assembled on the 15th inst.,. and therefore, respectfully desire that you will be good enough to definitely instruct the Chairman of this new Commission to permit a proper and effective re-hearing of matters, the subject of my complaint against the War Service Homes Commission, in respect of the Islands of Vanikoro and Tevai, or else appoint forthwith a Commission consisting of a High Court Justice to carry out the Government’s promise to Parliament, and I should be represented by counsel.

Notwithstanding the statement of Mr. Fowler, the inquiry has not been abonafide one, and there can be no satisfaction unless I have the right through counsel of crossexamination of Colonel Walker and Mr. Bradshaw, Commissioner and Controller respectively.

These men have shown themselves to be untruthful in their statements and unscrupulous in their methods, and, therefore, unworthy of the high positions which they hold.

As an example, I may quote the paper shown to Mr. Roger Greene, Secretary to the High Commissioner for the Western Pacific, when he had an interview in Melbourne with Senator E. D. Millen and Colonel Walker at the end of July last year, respecting Vanikoro. He was shown a paper with my name on it, which he was told I had signed, and which, if true, might have been fatal to my claim. This paper was produced in November last to the Committee, and Colonel Walker swore to my having signed it in the presence of himself, Colonel Duigan, and the accountant to the Commission, a man I have never seen.

I had never seen the paper; yet he swore to my signature no less than four times, and finally, due to the persistence of Senator E. D. Millen, admitted that I had not signed it, thus implying forgery in his own office.

Lieut. -Colonel Walker has made a definite statement that he was offered a bribe of £50,000.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

Mr HECTOR LAMOND:

– The soldier has a right to growl when the Department undertakes to give him a house at a certain value, and fails to do so, or when it sets out to supply him with a well-constructed house and produces houses like those which some applicants have received. But the soldiers have no right to complain, .and I doubt whether they do complain, if, when they have selected their own houses and made their own arrangements, they find they have made a bad bargain. They cannot blame the Department for that.

Mr Mathews:

– In the course of a year, thousands of documents pass through my Department. I cannot possibly be expected to be intimately acquainted with the details of all of them, although I am supposed to be ; and if any honorable members ask me if I am aware of the contents of any particular document, I must say “Yes” or “No,” but I am responsible for all, although, perhaps, in 900 cases out of 1,000 I may not have seen them. Well, this is one of the things which the Minister tor Repatriation did not know. The matter is quite fresh in my memory. I was in England when Lieut.-Colonel Walker was appointed, and therefore I was not acquainted with the circumstances leading up to his appointment, but I do know that as soon as the Minister for Repatriation knew that Lieut. -Colonel Walker was an. uncertificated bankrupt he brought the matter to the Cabinet, and the Government took certain action. It may be said that the Minister, inappointing. Lieut. -Colonel Walker, made a poor selection. Well, what are the facts? I agree with the honorable member for Illawarra (Mr. Hector Lamond) that there was very little choice offeredto the Minister. How could it be otherwise when a salary of only £1,500 was offered for the services of a man who might be expected to handle tens of millions of Commonwealth money? To expect the most capable man to offer himself for such a salary was to slam the door on the teachings of life and its experiences.

Mr.Anstey. - Who slammed the door?

Mr HUGHES:

– Well, let me tell the honorable member. When the War Service Homes Bill was under discussion in Committee on 20th December, 1918, the honorable member’s Leader (Mr. Tudor) is reported in Hansard as saying -

It will be for the Government to see that they appoint the most capable man available.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– Then do not confine them to the payment of a salary not exceeding £1,500.

Mr TUDOR:
YARRA, VICTORIA

– No larger salary will be paid until the proposal has been brought before the House, and an opportunity afforded for its discussion? The Minister promises that.

My friend, the Assistant Minister (Mr. Rodgers), made it clear then that if we wanted to get the most capable man for the position, we should not confine the salary to £1,500, but my friends opposite who have suddenly blossomed forth in an entirely new role, said - “No,we must not give more than £1,500.” I think I may leave it at that. Had a competent man been appointed the result no doubt would have been very different. However, it is no good censuring Lieutenant-Colonel Walker now. The facts are he was appointed, and he did what he could, but the results have been most unfortunate. To arrive at a true estimate of the position we should take the work of the Department by and large. Although it is popular just now to do nothing else but criticise the Department, it may, I think, be said that those who are loudest in their criticism have had very little experience in administration. It is quite easy for any man in Collins-street to get up on a fence and tell a farmer how to plough his land, and, generally, how to carry on farming operations, but it is altogether a different thing to conduct a farm properly and make it pay. Let us apply this reasoning to the work of theRepatriation Department. Both of my colleagues who are responsible for the administration of that Department are competent men.

Mr Prowse:

– But you have already said that our criticism has been very moderate.

Mr HUGHES:

– No, I did not say that.

I come now to the point that really matters. The honorable member for Cowper (Dr. Earle Page) has asked what are we going to do in the future. I have tried to ascertain where the fault lies, whether it is due to stupidity, to red-tape, or some defect in the Act. Honorable members have spoken about all the letters they have received complaining of faults in the administration. I suppose that in my office alone I have dealt with any- thing from 15,000 to 20,000 letters from soldiers on repatriation matters generally, and I have most reluctantly come to the conclusion that a good deal of the trouble is due to red-tape. I am not going to say anything about the officials, except that at times they seem to exhibit a narrowness of outlook that is rather disappointing. But after making all allowances for red-tape, the major trouble lies in the Act itself. It requires amendment. The honorable member for Cowper quoted a case of a soldier blinded in both eyes. I understand it was contended by the Department that his injury was not due to warlike operations. We have had dozens of similar cases. I do not agree that the onus should be on the soldier to establish the claim that his injuries have been due to the war. The onus must be on the Commonwealth Government. We must assume that any man who joined the Australian Imperial Force was, prior to enlistment, in sound health. Otherwise he ought no,t to have . been passed by the medical officers. I may be wrong, but that is my view, and if this House gives it the opportunity, the Government will before the House rises pass an amending Bill to remedy this defect in the Act. As to the other points. I listened very carefully to what the honorable member for Cowper had to say, and where his suggestions have not been anticipated by the Assistant Minister’s speech, most of them are deserving of consideration. With many of them I agree entirely. We shall, at the earliest possible moment, make such amendments in the Act as will enable us to put the Department on a business-like and satisfactory basis. Honorable members seem to have set their faces against the system of day labour for the construction of War Service Homes. All I can say is that the policy of the Government is to make such arrangements with the States as will enable us to hand these matters over to them, but for reasons that, perhaps, will be obvious to honorable members, we have not yet beeu able to, come to au agreement with the State of New South Wales, although we do not despair of being able to do so. When we have distributed our work in this way we must, of course, reduce the. central staff, because our operations will then not be on such & grandiose scale. Naturally central office expenditure must be reduced, and as the honorable member for Cowper suggests,we must put a business manager in charge. That we shall do. I do not know that I can say anything more except that I deprecate entirely the suggestion that the Minister for Repatriation is censurable. I hold strongly to the view that the trouble that has arisen is due entirely to the deliberate act of this Legislature in appointing a Commissioner, and giving him statutory authority to deal with all these matters. We are endeavouring, however, to straighten out the trouble. I have indicated some of the changes we propose to make. One of these will be made without delay, and the others at the earliest possible moment. My honorable colleague reminds me that the administration Estimates of this Department have been reduced from £189,000 to £100,000. That is something already done. We have had to deal with a very great undertaking under conditions quite abnormal, and, on the whole; I venture to say that what has been done does not merit that criticism which has been directed against it. The criticism in certain sections of the press has been of a very venomous kind. As to the criticism in this Chamber, I can onlysay that during this debate the whole matter has been treated in a way to which I take no exception. If honorable members are prepared to co-operate with the Government in putting this Department right and in helping the soldier - because, after all, that is what we are trying to do - the Ministry on its part will do everything that is desired.

Mr McGRATH:
Ballarat

– I expected that the Leader of the Country party (Dr. Earle Page) would have concluded his criticism of the Estimates of this Department by submitting the equivalent of a motion of censure. The Prime Minister (Mr. Hughes) has just referred to outside criticism of the administration of the War Service Homes Commission. I do not know of any stronger criticism in the press than ha3 been indulged in by the Leader of the Country party. Again and again, when spending the week-endin Sydney, the honorable member has given interviews to the press, and has made threats as to what would be done when the War Service Homes Estimates came before the Committee. Evidently the Country party has again climbed down, and there is not to be a fight. The party apparently is going once more to accept the assurances of the Prime Minister, and everything, so far as the Government are concerned, is to be all right.

Mr Considine:

– The Leader of the Country party says that he is going to submit a motion.

Mr McGRATH:

– I thought that he would have concluded his speech by submitting the equivalent of a motion of censure. Evidently some arrangement has been arrived at between the Government and the Country party. The Prime Minister has made terms with the Country party, and has been endeavouring in his speech to cover up that fact. Unfortunately, the Government Were making promises of what they were going to do for our returned soldiers at a time when, instead of merely talking, they should have been doing something for them. No provision for the housing of our returned soldiers was made until the Armistice had been signed and our men were coming back in their tens of thousands. The War Service Homes scheme should have been launched long before the war closed. I can appreciate some of the difficulties which the Minister (Senator E. D. Millen) has experienced in administering his Department. The cry of “Preference to returned soldiers” having been raised, he was limited in his choice of a Commissioner. I firmly believe that, having regard to the way in which such appointments are made, a big blunder was made in so limiting his choice. The Government would not dream of selecting for such a position any returned man who had not, at least, held the rank of colonel. An officer might be a splendid leader of men in the battlefield and yet quite incapable of successfully administering the War Service Homes Act. The Minister, unfortunately, made a very bad choice. It is idle for the Prime Minister to tell us that his choice was limited because of the small salary offered. As a matter of fact, the Bill, as introduced by the Government, fixed the salary of the Commissioner at £1,500 a year. The responsi bility in that respect, therefore, rests only with the Government. They had a majority behind them, and, had they wished, could have fixed the salary at £15,000 a year. They believed, however, that a salary of £1,500 per annum would enable them to secure a capable man for the post.

– I am pleased that the Minister has decided to proceed once more with the purchase of already erected houses. I have not heard one complaint concerning the houses purchased iu Ballarat while Captain Tait was administering the Victorian Branch. Whatever may be the odium attaching to him now, I can only say that he always extended courtesy to applicants, and gave them satisfaction.

I have now to deal with dismissals from the War Service Homes Commission. I received to-day an extraordinary letter. I think the writer, whom I know,, is a reliable man, but I cannot vouch for the truth of the statements in his letter. Referring to the men who have been dismissed recently from the service of the Commission, he writes -

We are all married men, and were clerks at the works, and have lately been retrenched and single men kept on. We are the clerks who should have been kept on, as we know building construction and the materials. We ask to be reinstated as early as possible. All of us time clerks have ‘had office experience, whereas the. majority of those kept on have never been in an office in their lives.

I do not think the Minister will countenance that sort of thing. The Commission is in need of men of experience. The writer continues -

The management is faulty, and some clerks who are the pets can do what they like. The pay clerks, when going out in the motor cars to pay on Fridays, bring their wives and sweethearts for a day’s jaunt. The pet clerks can get their fathers put in as watchmen and crippled returned soldiers put out.

Mr Fleming:

– There may be something in the latter complaint, but there is nothing in the complaint as to the clerks taking their wives and sweethearts with them when they are sent out.

Mr McGRATH:

– Quite so. I had an interview with the writer of this letter. He told me that there was a battalion friendship in. the office. He said that some of the officers who are responsible for the mismanagement that has been going on have brought about the dismissal of certain men, and that for sentimental or other reasons they are keeping on their favorites, and dismissing married men. He writes that -

Other clerks are kept on because they dig the accountant’s garden.

– I intend to obtain the names of those medical officers, although the Department has refused to supply them. I shall get them, and will publish the name of the officer who made the remark to which I have referred. The time is opportune to dismiss the whole of the staff. It is useless keeping men there simply because they have been on active service, when it is costing the Government many thousands of pounds to conduct a Department, the work of which can be done quite as efficiently, and certainly more sympathetically, by another Department which is willing to undertake it. I cannot conceive of any honorable member refusing to support the amendment I have moved.

Is it not about time the War Gratuity Board ceased to exist? Surely all the bonds have been dealt with. I have heard the most extraordinary rumours to the effect that members of the Board are receiving £2 2s. a day, and are dealing with perhaps only one case at each sitting. God only knows what they are doing! It is time all the applications were dealt with. If they are not all completed, what is the Department of the Treasury doing? Certain officials are dealing with the cashing of bonds, and surely they can handle any work in connexion with bonds not already issued. There is no necessity for a War Gratuity Board in any State.

Mr WIENHOLT:
Moreton

.- I intend at a later stage to move an amendment, and I should be glad, Mr. Chairman, if you will direct me as to the vote we are discussing.

The CHAIRMAN (Hon J M Chanter:
RIVERINA, NEW SOUTH WALES

– The total sum for Division 156.

Mr WIENHOLT:

– I did not envy the Assistant Minister (Mr. Rodgers) in his task in opening the debate. I desire to be quite frank, and say that I have always admired a person who says, “Peccavi!” and is willing to acknowledge the mistakes he has made, because when faults are admittedthey are not so likely to be repeated. The Assistant Minister said that a portion of the work of the War Service Homes Commission had got into a “ bog,” and I think we have learned a most valuable lesson. The War Service Homes Commission started as master builders in a large way, but ended in thorough muddle and disaster. The Assistant Minister said that the Commission had now abandoned the attempt to act as a master builder; but I do not know whether that means that the Government are going to suspend operations at Canberra, because if they do not we shall be in an extraordinary position. They have admitted that there has been a bungle and a failure in attempting to build soldiers’ cottages, and it would be interesting to know how they expect to succeed in constructing the palatial marble halls of the Federal Capital. The lesson which, I think, this absolute failure teaches, and which the Assistant Minister has admitted, is that Commonwealth or State trading enterprises cannot succeed. The taxpayers, especially those in the State I represent, are being ground between the two millstones of State and Commonwealth enterprises.

Sitting suspended from 6.30 to 8 p.m.

Mr WIENHOLT:

– Having heard the Assistant Minister (Mr. Rodgers) frankly admit the mistakes which have been made in the Department, and having listened to his proposals for the reorganization which is already proceeding, I have no wish to adopt a hostile attitude in respect of the Estimates immediately under consideration. But there is one phase of the activities of the Commission in regard to which I heard no satisfactory information this morning. I refer to the purchase of saw-mills in Queensland, at Canungra and Beaudesert. It is of no use to cry over spilt milk; but I am bound to say that the whole purchase was thoroughly unsound in principle, unbusiness-like, and altogether a very bad bargain. That, I think, the Assistant Minister himself must admit. What the ultimate loss will , be no one can say; but the present position, I repeat, is altogether unhappy. Something like £250,000 was paid by the Commonwealth for these mills, which were worked for a short period, but are now, and have been for many months, idle. Many hundreds of logs have been allowed to deteriorate and rot in the scrub, about the dumps, and at the mills. The mills, of course, are fast deteriorating; and as for the tram lines and other parts of the plant, they, too,are daily losing value. There is obviously, also, the loss incurred in the matter of interest on the capital sum involved.

– The honorable member foreshadowed a kind of amendment. However, it will not come to anything; so, after all, it will be better left alone. The statement of the Assistant Minister has satisfied no one. An absurd position arose when the Prime Minister (Mr. Hughes) sought, this afternoon, to bring the Minister for Repatriation (Senator E. D. Millen) from another place to address honorable members. The incident merely served to emphasize the fact that Ministers controlling important spending Departments should be in this House, where they would be directly answerable to it. However, I am glad that the Prime Minister’s suggestion got nowhere.

References have been freely made today to bungling and maladministration, but I feel that to proceed further into the subject at large would merely involve a waste of time. Honorable members of the Country party have made up their minds, after collaboration with the Prime Minister this afternoon, that there is “ nothing doing.” The Government are safe. They may retire into recess without thought of danger.

Sir Granville Ryrie:

– And the honorable member says, “ Thank God for that!”

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– No vote or action of mine has been, or will be, the cause of permitting the Government to retire safely into recess. My votes in this House show where I stand.

Mr Atkinson:

– But the honorable member will not be sorry to see them do so. .

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– At any rate, I am not like the honorable member for Wilmot (Mr. Atkinson), who talks one way, pretending to be quite fierce, and meekly votes in another direction whenever there is a threat of a crisis.

I have promised to take this opportunity to present the typical complaint of an individual; and I have undertaken, on behalf of the honorable member for Dalley (Mr. Mahony) who has had to leave for the Parramatta electorate, to place before honorable members a case in which he has interested himself. As a matter of fact, each case is similar to many others, and there is no necessity for me to refer to more than one. I shall present the details, not with any hope or thought, however, of securing relief for the. parties concerned. No honorable member expects the affairs of the War Service Homes to be one whit the better for their airing to-day. There will surely be more bungling. The Minister in charge knows that he may proceed safely, seeing that all the threats of the past few weeks have cheaply dissipated, and that, for the future, there will continue to be “ nothing doing “ on the part of those who have been loudest in their spoken denunciations of the Government. I have received a long letter in regard to this matter, and in order to save the time of honorable members have made a summary of it. . I hope the Assistant Minister will take notice of it because, notwithstanding the unsatisfactory statement he has given us. to-day, I trust that these people may get some redress. The letter is written by a man who had a splendid war record. He applied in 1919 for assistance to build a home, and his application was approved in August, 1919; that is over two years ago, and at a time when the Minister was agreeable to purchase homes already built. He saw a house close to where he was living, which at £725, the price at which it waa offered to him, he considered an excellent bargain, and he submitted it to the War Service Homes people, but they rejected the house without even inspecting it. The same house, a few months later, was purchased for another soldier applicant for £850.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– There is something like graft in that.

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I do not want to say that there was graft or anything of that kind. I leave honorable members to think what they like about it.

Mr ROBERT COOK:
INDI, VICTORIA · VFU; CP from 1920

– What time elapsed before the second transaction took place?

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– About five months.

Mr ROBERT COOK:
INDI, VICTORIA · VFU; CP from 1920

– It is possible that the price of houses went up in the meantime.

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I do not think so. The first offer was rejected without any inspection, that is the principal cause of complaint. However, this applicant was then advised to secure a piece of land; and he secured a block for £116. The site was approved, as also the price, and he was requested to call at the head office to arrange about the transfer, and take the necessary preliminary steps for having a house built. He was informed that tenders would be called at once, and that he would be notified when a satisfactory tender was accepted. He heard nothing further until the end of the year 1919, when he was asked to call at the office of a solicitor, and pay registration fees, &c, amounting to £1 12s. Again, he heard nothing further until January, 1920, when he waa informed that the lowest tender received was £826. As the amount available was £584, he was asked to pay the balance of £242 into the Commonwealth Rank. The Bank wrote to him as follows:-

If you ore prepared to deposit £242 into your account in the Commonwealth Bank the tender can be accepted, and the contract signed.

He makes this charge in his letter -

In November, .1919, the Bank had received a tender for £077 to build the kind of home I wanted, and failed to notify me.

He called on a certain major at the Bank - I need not mention his name. The major said that the applicant must be mistaken, and that it could not be true that a tender for £677 had been received. However, he called a number of clerks, and they were able to prove that the applicant was right. The applicant now wants to know how i% was that he should be called upon to pay £242 into the Bank as the difference between £826, said to be the lowest tender, and the amount available for him, £584, whereas from information he had obtained, and which proved to be correct, he knew that the lowest tender received was £677.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– That is pretty hot.

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– But this is what makes the case look suspicious. The afternoon on which he received the bank’s letter notifying him that the lowest tender was £826 a stranger drove up to his home in a motor car and asked, “Are you the gentleman whose letter I have ? “ holding up a letter, and mentioning the name on it. The applicant said, “ Yes, that is my name.” The visitor then said, “ That is my tender for £826. Are you going on with this ? “ The applicant told the contractor “that he knew that another tender had been submitted for £677. However, to make a long story short, the contractor said, “ I will pay you £100 to help you if you will accept my tender and say that you are satisfied to go on with it.”

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– He would have lost £50 by accepting the offer.

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– Yes. A few days later he received a letter addressed to Nurse So-and-So, of the same surname. He wrote back, and said that he was a returned soldier, and not a nurse. This is only further evidence of the bungling that went on in the Department. The applicant writes -

Notwithstanding that my application for assistance was granted, and the amount voted placed to my credit in the Commonwealth Bank in August, 1919, in view of the volume of correspondence on the subject, I got an extraordinary letter from the War Service Homes Commission to the effect that approval had been given for my request for a grant for £800 subject to the proof of the title being satisfactory, &c.

As a matter of fact, that letter should have gone to another man, also of the same surname, showing, further, the confusion in the Department. But these are minor points. The serious feature of the case is the fact that a lower tender had been received, much below the one they wanted him to accept, and which he was offered £100 to accept. On 29th January of this year, nothing having been done in the meantime, another letter came to him in regard to his home. After mixing him up with two other people, they evidently had a look round the Department, and found his case. At any rate, they made a fresh start.

Mr Considine:

– All these letters cause the Minister much inconvenience.

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I cannot blame the Minister for this sort of thing, but he certainly is surrounded by an incompetent and hopeless staff, and the trouble is that we are not likely to get much relief. At any rate, this man was requested to call and make final arrangements. At last he thought he had come to finality. Therefore, in January of this year, he went along to the Department. He signed all necessary documents, and, on the 31st May, nearly six months later, he was informed that there were six tenders, only one of which was satisfactory. He was told, however, that nothing could be done at that stage.

Mr Bamford:

– This man had hard luck.

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– There were several similar cases. I had a letter from aman at Albury who was in the same predicament. On the 10th October, the soldier to whom I have been referring was asked to sign security documents, and to pay fees amounting to £4 9s. 6d. He then asked whether, if he paid that amount, he could be guaranteed that there would be no further trouble, and he was assured that there would be no more delay. That was at the end of two years. He told the Department then that he would secure a contractor of his own who was prepared to do the work for £685. He gave promissory notes for £20 and £17 in connexion with the building. He was assured that there would be no further delay. On the 30th October, he was informed that, until he paid £10 19s. 7d the interest owing, nothing could be done. It was owing to the bungling and delay, due solely to the Department, that the interest had accrued. The man refused to pay it, and he said that he would place his case in the hands of a member of theFederal Parliament.

Then there was a series of telegrams to and from the head office in Melbourne, and, up to the date of his last letter, this man had not been able to get anything done. He has sent the account which he received for municipal rates. This is not a case that stands alone. I suppose every honorable member has had similar instances brought under his notice. For the general rate on his land he has been charged £2 7s. 6d. There are arrears amounting to £1 3 s. 4d., a special loan rate of 7s. 6d., and 6s. 7d. for other arrears. Including legal fees, the total amount charged is £48 12s. 8d. The most unfortunate aspect is that we have no guarantee that this kind of thing is not going to continue.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– Yes, you have.

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– Honorable members in the corner have been threatening for weeks to do many things to this Government, but nothing has resulted.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– If the case made out is supported by the evidence on the files, I think I can assure the honorable member that it constitutes a commitment which will be carried out. As far as interest is concerned, such a case will not go to the Adjustment Board, but the Commissioner will deal with it at once, and no interest will be charged where the Commissioner is at fault.

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– That will be welcome news to this and several other returned men in similar circumstances. Another ray of hope will come into his life; but I hope he will get what has been only too long denied him.

The CHAIRMAN (Hon J M Chanter:

– The honorable member’s time has expired.

Mr FLEMING:
Robertson

.- It seems to me that in the first three minutes of his speech to-day the Assistant Minister for Repatriation (Mr. Rodgers) destroyed the whole of the case he endeavoured to present, because he informed the Committee that the late Commissioner was incompetent. It was quite a considerable time before any remedial measures were adopted by the Government, and then, I think, action was taken in the wrong way. The Assistant Minister told us that the Commissioner was left entirely without interference. As soon as the Government found that he was incapable of carrying out bis duties, surely it was high time for the Government to do something?

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– While he had a chance of creating his organization there, was no Ministerial interference.

Mr FLEMING:

– How long was the Commissioner there before the Government interfered? Every one knew that affairs were going from bad to worse. This Parliament passed a very generous measure in connexion with War Service homes and pensions, and had the Acts been administered in anything like a proper manner the soldiers would have had very little to complain of. As soon as it was found* that the administration was faulty, the Government should have come to the House, knowing how favorably disposed all honorable members were towards the returned soldiers. The Government would then have been given an open cheque to do what was necessary to place the Department in proper order. We were informed that the appointment

– Of course if I had not been a member of that Committee I should not have been in Western Australia and, therefore, I could not have got the information.

– That is so:. The letter I have was written on the man’s behalf by a leading resident of the town. This returned soldier cannot earn his own living, and yet there are others besides himself to keep.

There is another case in my electorate, which is described in the following letter written by the man’s wife: -

My husband was discharged from the Australian Imperial Force in September, 1918, and has been failing in health ever since. He was granted a war pension in July, 1919, of £2 8s. 9d. per fortnight for himself, wife, and six children, which was cancelled on 13th January, 1921, without being sent up for medical examination, the last examination toeing on 8th June, 1920. My husband is unable to work, and we have had to sell all our personal belongings to live. . . . We have had a family of eleven children, eight of them living, and six are depending on us. During the whole time of our married life he never required the attendance of a doctor until he joined the Australian Imperial Force. He was a very strong man, and made a good living by cutting railway sleepers.

I now come to a broader matter. Some little time ago, on the 29th August, I wrote a letter to the then Treasurer (Sir Joseph Cook) urging that something should be done for the widows of soldiers who could not maintain themselves and their children on the pensions allowed. I stated at the time that I did not think an increase of the total amount for pensions was necessary, but that the allocation of the pensions could be much improved. I suggested to the Treasurer that where a widow had been left with children, aged parents, or other dependants, they should be given the maximum pension, as allowed by the Act, with an allowance for those dependent on them. That suggestion I sent to the » executives of the League throughout Australia, and they agreed that it was a way out of a difficulty that was felt to press harshly, The Treasurer wrote to me on the 10th September, and said he had referred the matter to the Minister for Repatriation (Senator E. D. Millen); but, so far as I know, nothing has been done. I again urge upon the Assistant Minister the necessity of doing something for these poor women and children, who are suffering from the loss of their bread-winners. It may not be difficult for the widow of a soldier to live on her pension if she has no one dependent on her, but where soldiers’ widows cannot leave their homes because they have young children, or have to support an aged or crippled relative, they are struggling painfully and hopelessly to try to meet their obligations. I have found in many parts of Australia cases of the deepest suffering on this ‘account. I ask the Minister to do something to remove this blot from the fair name of Australia. Nothing is too bad to say of a country which permits the widows and children of men who died for it at the ‘ Front to go to ruin, it may be, in order to avoid starvation. Women will do anything for the protection of their children, and some of these soldiers’ widows are in desperate straits.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– They are receiving the statutory pensions.

Mr FLEMING:

– I am aware that they are. This suggestion, to which I refer, was made to the Department as long ago as 29th August last, and in that communication I showed that I had received support for the idea from the central branches of the Returned Sailors and Soldiers League in every State of Australia, and the Minister, apparently, knows nothing about it. I have not complained because the Government have paid only the statutory pensions provided for, but because our legislation in this respect requires amendment. So far as I know, the full statutory pension is paid in most if not all of these cases; but I want the Government to give effect to the suggestion I have made, which is supported by the Returned Sailors and Soldiers League throughout Australia. Where the widows of returned soldiers have’ to provide for dependants they should be given more than the present statutory pension in order that they may have a reasonable chance of keeping themselves decently and of bringing up their children to be a credit to the names of their fathers who died to save this country.

Question - That the proposed vote be reduced by £1 (Mr. McGrath’s amendment) - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 15

NOES: 27

Majority . . . . 12

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Mr.ANSTEY (Bourke) [9.8].- We have just had a most interesting division, and I have no desire to comment upon it. I assume that the whole matter is still open for discussion, and there are one or two questions I wish to ask the Assistant Minister in connexion ‘with it. I notice that, in connexion with the administration of old-age and invalid pensions, the vote for salaries amounts to £30,000, whilst in connexion with the administration of war pensions the salaries amount to £37,000. Medical expenses in connexion with old-age and invalid pensions amount to £5,000, and, in connexion with war pensions, to £18,000. Other expenses in connexion with old-age and invalid pensions amount to £50,000, and, in connexion with war pensions, to £55,000. These figures show administration costs amounting to £85,000 for old-age and invalid pensions, and amounting to £110,000 for war pensions. From the Estimates, I find that the vote last year for salaries and contingencies in connexion with war pensions was £65,000; but apparently there is no vote down for the purpose this year. There is a footnote which informs us that these expenses are embraced in a previous item for salaries under the general heading of “ Repatriation Commission,” so that the expenditure on salaries and contingencies in connexion with war pensions is cloaked up when itought to be clearly stated. It has been contended that all men who volunteered to enlist and were passed by the doctors should be entitled to pensions if disabled, and I understand that it is the intention of the Prime Minister (Mr. Hughes) to introduce a Bill to give effect to this policy. I should like to know when that measure is likely to be introduced. I do not desire to go into details, or to occupy the time of the Committee with individual cases, but I may be allowed to mention one case which is typical of dozens which might be quoted. A man in my district was engaged in a business and when the Government called on those who’ were prepared to volunteer for the war he said he was prepared to volunteer, but he did no’t consider that he was medically fit. However, he went before the doctors, and they passed him. He went into camp, and, although he suffered from hamorrhage on several occasions, he would not be released. His business disappeared, and although he had been kept in camp for twelve months and had become permanently incapacitated through hamorrhages, time after time he has been refused a pension. Such cases will, I hope, be provided for in the amending legislation which is promised.

The erection of “War Service Homes, was a proposition put forward by the Government in order to find homes for returned soldiers. The Prime Minister said on one occasion that in time of war we should prepare for peace, just as in time of peace we should prepare for war. He said that i’t was necessary to preparefor the aftermath of war, but nothing in this direction was done until after the Armistice. Then the Bill making provision for “War Service Homes was passed, and the Commonwealth Bank was at first intrusted with the building of homes. Tt was pointed out that it was wise to remove the administration of the measure from political control. I take it that the reason we do not want political control and are so hostile to it is because we have no faith in ourselves, and no confidence in our own honesty. Consequently, in this and in many other cases we put the control into the hands of business men. The Government placed a business man in the person of Mr. Walker in charge of the War Service Homes scheme. I believe that the Minister when making the appointment believed that he was selecting the most competent man for the position, and whether he was the worst or the best I am not able to say. The Government took upon themselves the responsibility of Mr. Walker’s ‘appointment. The particular reason that was advanced at the time for the Government taking over the work themselves was that contractors could not be got to do it. After the Department had been in operation for some time and a number of houses had been erected, the Minister for Repatriation (Senator E. D. Millen) visited a place called Bell, in my district, and there made a speech. I quote from a press report of the speech -

Referring to the system of clay labour as against contract labour, Senator E. D. Millen said that he had always been against day labour, and that when the Commonwealth scheme was launched the one idea was that the contract system should be adopted.

That was the original proposal of the Government, and the only reason why it was departed from was that the Government could not get the ordinary private contractor to take up this work except at outrageous prices. I was present at the meeting which Senator E. D. Millen addressed, and am in a position to say that the press report of his utterances is accurate. He went on to say -

The average cost of the cottages at Bell was £695 lis. 3d. each, including land. Originally tenders were called for the erection of the houses, and the prices offered ranged from £720 to £900, exclusive of the cost of land. The actual cost of the homes included land, fencing, reticulation, wiring, and provision of necessary accessories. The frontages were from 40 feet to G9 feet.

And so on. The Minister went on to elaborate the advantages of the settlement. To-d’ay the statement is made that the business is carried on under the day-labour system. It is said that the cost of labour and material went up. The Assistant Minister for Repatriation (Mr. Rodgers) has spoken of a lack of material and a dearth of labour. There was a lack of material and a dearth of labour. It is not surprising that there should be shortage of material and labour when so many homes were being erected. The cost of material and of labour rose, but it would have risen in just the same way if the homes had been built under the private contract system. If private contractors had been asked to build 1,000 or 5,000 homes, and get properly qualified individuals to carry out the work, the same thing would have happened.

Mr ANSTEY:

– Just so. I have only a few words to say in regard to the denunciation of the day-labour system.

What does a workman do when he is in the employ of a private contractor? He works under the day-labour system. If the management of the contractor is good he gets good work from the employee; if the management is bad, he gets bad work. But an attempt is made to-night to load upon the workmen employed by the Commissioner the responsibility for the failures due to the incapacity of those who were intrusted with the carrying out of the scheme. I know of some men who invested an enormous sum of money in the acquisition of a big area of land in my district; they had capital and brains. Their anxiety was to make profit, and to get the best work they could out of the men they employed; there was no ‘ ‘ Government stroke ‘ ‘ on that job. They built scores of houses, but they were so rotten that they could not get the Government to take them off their hands.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– Where was that?

Mr ANSTEY:

– At Brunswick. I refer to the Northern Timber Mills. They tried to unload the houses on the Government. But the houses were so rotten that they did not compare even with those built by the Government, and the builders are still trying to unload them. Success or failure is wholly a matter of control; everything depends on the administration. What does the War Service Homes Department suffer from ? In order to cover up bad management an endeavour is being made to load the blame on to the workmen, and now the Government propose to go back to the two things they have always denounced - political responsibility, and the odious contract system, which simply means that the amount which otherwise would be paid to the workmen in higher wages goes into the pockets of the contractors, who pay low wages for bad labour, and use rotten material. “

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– We shall keep a skeleton organization to supervise the carrying out of the contracts.

Mr ANSTEY:

– These dialogues are entirely out of order.. I have no objection to participating in them., but I like the forms of the House to be observed.

– In any case, what did it matter? I would be very interested and pleased if the Assistant Minister could indicate any time or circumstances in which the ‘ opinions of the Opposition have ever had any influence upon the decisions of the Government. If the Government had been very anxious to load the scheme with a man worth £5,000 per annum there was no honorable member on this side of the chamber who could prevent them doing that. There was no more power on this side to prevent them doing that than there was to prevent Mr. Shepherd being paid £2,000 per annum. [ can mention a lot of other instances of the kind; and I could also mention officers receiving not £1,000, but only a few hundred pounds, who have administered the expenditure of millions of pounds of public money. Personally, I cannot see that there is any use in lamenting the past. I say nothing in denunciation of what has been done. The Government made a bad choice. The man they appointed as Commissioner failed, and the army of Deputies selected to work under his authority also failed.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– I was referring not to present Deputies, but to past Deputies.

Mr ANSTEY:

– And I was not referring to present politicians; all presentday politicians are honest, as are all commercial men.

What remedy do the Government propose? It is to adopt a course that has been the subject of abuse in this chamber and in the press time after time. After having painfully brought forth the great idea of a scheme which should be free from political influence, after developing an idea that demanded genius and commercial capacity for its administration; commercial capacity is to be thrown into the dust-bin, business men are to be discarded, and we are to revert to political control and all its evil influence.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– Direct Ministerial responsibility.

Mr ANSTEY:

– Direct Ministerial responsibility - which means that for ‘ every advantage which can be reaped from clever subordinates the Minister in charge of the Department takes credit; but when the scheme fails the Minister takes no responsibility. Always, like the Jews of old, they have some poor goat to carry the burden into the wilderness. There has been nothing more absurd than this proposal to change the system and bring the War Service Homes . scheme under the direct control of the Minister < in charge. All this means is that the Minister will take the responsibility, and that is all he will take.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– The public works of the Commonwealth and of all the States are carried out by this system.

Mr ANSTEY:

– On which leg do the Government stand? , They hop from twig to twig and from branch to branch, and they do not know where they arc standing. At one time, political influence is bad, and political responsibility is bad, and at another time it is good.

– Our chief voluntary assistant usually is the right man. The whole thing, from beginning .to end, has been most lamentable and regrettable, but I cannot see for a single moment how any changes in the system can at this particular moment alter the position. I do not know’ how far it was wise to take the business out of the hands of the Commonwealth Bank. I am not raising that question, but once the system has been built up at immense cost to this country, the machinery perfected, and the material and men massed under one great organization, it is a better proposition than any system of isolated building by private individuals. It is a self-evident fact that production on a large scale is the most economical kind of production. It is no way out of the difficulty to abolish the system. The proper way is to go on until you find the men who arc capable of administering the system properly. Everybody knows that companies find bad managers from time to time. They fail miserably, but they do not scrap their plant and throw up the job. They go on, cover up their losses, and continue until they find business men capable of administering successfully. The position is regrettable from the standpoint of the returned soldiers and of the country. It is also regrettable from the sti.nd-point of the Government, but it is nc remedy to simply create new Boards and new bodies of men, to build up a retinue of servants around them to merely dispose of the wreckage. The honorable member for Swan (Mr. Prowse) designated “them “mere liquidators” of a scheme which is yet solvent, if properly administered.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Division 157 (Miscellaneous), £10,946, agreed to.

Division 158 (War Service Homes Commission), £100,000.

Mr RODGERS:
Assistant Minister for Repatriation · WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– I regret that I did not hear the whole of the remarks of the honorable member for Moreton (Mr. Wienholt), but I ascertained the substance of them, and I have been informed of his intention to move an amendment which will call for a declaration of policy in respect of the working of the timber areas of Queensland. I think that the honorable gentleman has a right to ask that a policy should be defined by the Government at an early date. I have to confess that a satisfactory handling of the Queensland timber areas is one of the most difficult problems that the Government and the Commission have yet to solve. I think that almost every other phase of the Department’s activities has been covered by my statements and proposals, and by the remedial measures that have been indicated. I ask the honorable gentleman to accept my assurance that before the . end of February definite action will be taken in respect to the timber areas of Queensland. The Government has called for reports. It has, following on representation’s made by the honorable gentleman, sent the business adviser to Queensland, accompanied by an experienced sawmiller. It called in, also, the experience of other sawmillers in Queensland. It has reports and advices from these business advisers, but has not., been able to determine the policy which will best serve the returned soldier and the country. It will, however, concentrate on this matter imme diately the House rises, and I undertake that definite action shall be taken. I want to see the wheels of industry going again in those districts, and I can understand >the natural desire that exists in the localities affected. I think it would be foolish on my part, or on the part of the Government, to enunciate an immature policy now. It will devote itself to the most earnest consideration of the best solution of the question in the interests’ of .the returned soldiers, the taxpayers, and the localities concerned. I cannot at this juncture declare the policy that will be adopted; and the carrying of an amendment, I submit, cannot have the effect of securing an advance declaration of policy to-night. I ask the honorable member to accept my assurance that the Government will concentrate on this matter, that it will consider it very carefully, and that it will at the earliest possible date announce a policy which, I hope, will set the wheels of industry in motion by the end of February next.

Mr WIENHOLT:
Moreton

.- I do not wish to appear churlish., and. I do not want to waste one second of the time of the Committee unnecessarily ; but, to be perfectly frank with the Assistant Minister (Mr. Rodgers) I am not satisfied with the explanation he has made. As for the Government “concentrating” on this question and giving it their “ most careful consideration,” that is what I have been thinking and hoping they have been doing for many months past. Without desiring to be discourteous .to the Assistant. Minister, I must, in fairness to those I represent, submit an amendment. I move -

That the proposed vote be reduced by £1 as a request to the Government to take prompt steps to stop the loss of public money and unemployment caused by the cessation of work at their Canungra and Beaudesert mills.

Mr PROWSE:
Swan

.- The candid admissions pf the Assistant Minister (Mr. Rodgers) have removed much of the necessity for convincing debate. He has taken the sting out of the argument by admitting the indictment. The Public Accounts Committee is inquiring into the administration of the War Service Homes Commission, and has submitted several interim reports to Parliament, but the inquiry is not yet completed, and the final report, which will be the most important, is yet to be submitted. If Parliament is to effectively deal with the whole subject, it should do so on the submission of that report. It is beyond doubt that the Commission’ for the erection of homes for returned men has provided one of the greatest muddles ever associated with government in this country. The honorable member for Bourke (Mr. Anstey) said that others have referred to day labour as being the chief cause of the costliness of the buildings that have been erected. That certainly was partly the cause. In this concern of such great magnitude, where the supervision was indifferent, day labour has proved ineffective. But one might criticise the defects in the working of the War Service Homes Commission for hours without doing much goodat the present time. ‘ The Government are now seized of the position, and doubtless when Parliament resumes again, and the final report of the Public Accounts Committee has been presented, honorable members will be able to consider what action should be taken to put things on a sound footing. In my opinion, a grave mistake was made when we took the business out of the hands of the Commonwealth Bank, which, unquestionably, on the whole “ delivered the goods” while keeping within the bounds of the regulations. The men for whom it constructed houses have, generally, got better houses, and the work of construction was managed by it more efficiently than by the Commission. But one does not care to probe info things at this juncture; that may be done later. Prom South Australia scarcely a complaint has come, so that it would seem almost a waste of public money to go there to carry into that State the investigation of the Committee. In the matter of providing homes for our returned men, we should have followed the lines of experience, and not have rushed into a mammoth undertaking such as the world had never known. I hope that the Government will take the earliest opportunity to pull out, and put things on a proper footing. If that is not done before Parliament meets again, it will deserve all the castigation that can be given to it.

Question put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 13

NOES: 26

Majority . . . . 13

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative

Amendment negatived.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Department of the Navy.

Proposed vote, £2,340,438.

Mr CHARLTON:
Hunter

.- The amount voted for this Department last year was £2,279,238, and the amount spent, £2,429,050, the estimated expenditure for this year being £2,340,438, or a little less than was spent last year.

Mr.Laird Smith. - Less by £88,612.

Mr CHARLTON:

– This is the only Defence Department which proposes to spend less during the current year than was spent last year. I have risen chiefly to ask the Minister for the Navy (Mr: Laird Smith) for some information regarding the Naval College, for which we voted last year £74,850, and onwhich the expenditure was £81,252, or about £7,000 more. This year the expenditure on the College is estimated at £75,220, or about £6,000 less than was ‘ spent last year. I wish to know what number of cadets is at the College at the present time? It has been stated repeatedly that there are almost as many instructors there as cadets. If that is so, it is a regrettable state of affairs. A footnote indicates that it is expected that the Estimates will be reduced in the second half of the financial year by four commissioned officers, twenty-four petty officers and men, and three assistant masters ; but even if the number be reduced as stated we shall not be justified in expending all this money’ on the College, taking into consideration the small number of cadets there.

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
Minister for the Navy · Denison · NAT

.- I shall be pleased to supply tie information. We are endeavouring, as far as practicable, to retrench at the College, but it must be a gradual process in order not to interfere with the instruction of the cadets in training there. They are getting excellent instruction. After passing through the College they are sent to Great Britain, where, in competition with students from a similar College in the Old Country, many of them have come out with flying colours. This, I think, is a great compliment to our Naval College, and also to Australia. If we are to have an efficient Navy we must have some institution at which its future officers may be thoroughly trained. I visited the College last year and was very much impressed by all that I saw there, especially the splendid system of training that had been adopted. The cadets are taught seamanship, navigation, gunnery, torpedo practice, engineering (theoretical and practical), mathematics, physics, and chemistry. It was my privilege to present the prizes to the successful students. One cadet had taken honours in five subjects, but was only allowed three prizes. I made careful inquiries into the system of training, and found that if students were subjected to any unusual mental strain they were sent into the engineering room, or given a course of physical training, which resulted in the much-needed mental rest, and built them up, thus enabling them to resume their studies with greater vigour. I found that the students in residence were exceeding the number likely to be required as lieutenants, and after conferring with the Naval Board, I determined upon a scheme of retrenchment, which has resulted in an estimated saving of £7,000, but which, I believe, will really be about £10,000 this year. We are still considering a development of this policy, and possibly the training of the H.M.S. Tingira lads will be carried out at the College, if practicable. This should result in a still further saving.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– Does the Minister think that another visit to the College would result in a saving of another £10,000 ?

Mr LAIRD SMITH:

– I would not like to say that it would. I can assure honorable members that the Estimates were very carefully reviewed and heavy reductions made before being submitted to Parliament. We have done everything possible to keep expenditure ‘ down, and in this matter the Board has rendered very great assistance. There are fewer naval vessels in commission, but” I do not think we should- economize at the risk of efficiency. I trust that the course I have indicated will commend itself to honorable members, and that the Estimates will be ‘accepted by the Committee.

Mr WATT:
Balaclava

.- I intimated at an earlier stage of the Defence vote that I thought it would be possible to make substantial reductions in the Naval Estimates, but before moving in respect of any particular item, I should like the Minister (Mr. Laird Smith) to explain five very substantial increases in various branches of this Department. The first is to be found in the medical services, the vote for which, speaking in round figures, is £21,000, as compared with the actual expenditure last year of £14,000, or an increase of £7,000. Then there is the Royal Australian Naval Reserve vote of £110,000, against an actual expenditure of £85,000 last year, or an increase of £25,000. For Naval establishments the estimated expenditure this year is £158,000, compared with an actual expenditure of £82,000 last year, an increase of £76,000; and the amount to be paid to credit of Trust Fund for uniform, clothing, and other necessaries is £50,000, compared with an actual expenditure of £15,000 last year, or an increase of £35,000. In general services there is an estimated expenditure of £63,000, as against an actual expenditure last year of £32,000, an increase of £30,000. ‘ These items represent an aggregate increase in expenditure of about £174,000, and I think it will, to some extent, depend upon the explanation of the Minister whether members will feel justified in accepting, or moving for some substantial reductions in, the Estimates of the Department.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– Like the honorable member for Balaclava (Mr. Watt), I should like some information regarding certain anticipated increases, notably the heavy increases in the medical services.’ I understand we have fewer ships in commission this year than last year, and yet ,the total amount to be made available for medical services has been increased by £7,000. In connexion with this vote, I should like to suggest an amalgamation of the whole of the medical services for the Army, Navy, and Air services in one defence medical service under one director-general. My attitude towards these Estimates will entirely depend upon the Minister’s explanation.

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
Minister for the Navy · Denison · NAT

– It has been found necessary to give increases in pay to officers in the medical services, to provide for certain increments, and to make certain clerical appointments. The item, £1,000, for the Director of Naval Medical Services last year appeared as “ Borne for pay under division No. 78, Permanent Naval Forces (Sea-going),” so it is not an increase. The recommendations of the Basic Wage Commission have influenced the Government in paying certain increments. The last Estimates provided for only portion of the year. The Naval Board finds the utmost difficulty in retaining the services of its medical men owing to greater attractions outside. These gentlemen must get a fair remuneration for their services if we are to retain them. Speaking from memory, I think we have been advertising for three medical officers simply because those in the Department have taken positions outside.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– How many vessels are there in commission?

Mr LAIRD SMITH:

– Some weeks ago I issued a statement explanatory of the Naval Estimates in the hope that it would be of assistance to honorable members. At page 4 of that statement the strength of the sea-going fleet is given as follows: - Two light cruisers, Melbourne and Brisbane; one training cruiser, Sydney; two sloops, Geranium and Marguerite; three modern destroyers, Anzac and two “ IS “ class destroyers ; one “ River “ class destroyer, Huon; one submarine parent ship, Platypus; three “ J “ class submarines; ,and one yacht, the Franklin, which is used as a tender to the Royal Australian Naval College. The Geranium is employed on survey work on the north coast of Australia, and has given good service for the expenditure incurred in respect of her. The [honorable member for Balaclava (Mr. Watt) desired information as to the increased vote in respect of the Royal Australian Naval Reserve totalling £27,291. The increase under “ Pay “ is to provide, ‘ first of all, for the resumption of training, which was suspended owing to the war, and will involve an additional expenditure of £10,646. Then we have provision for full year of staff appointed during 1920-21, which accounts for £4,510, while increments under awards and regulations involve an increase of £1,046; making a total under “Pay” of £16,202. The increase under “ Contingencies “ is £7,984. We are now reverting to the ordinary training, and I am convinced that considerable savings will eventually be made in our total Estimates when we have in the Naval Reserve a number of these trained men, who proved themselves of much use during the war. I would also direct the attention of the honorable member to division “Naval Establishments,” which appears at page 197 of these Estimates.’ There we have provision made for the full year’s payment of the basic wage allowance, including child endowment, which was payable during only a portion of the year 1920-21, and in respect of which there is an increase of £924. Other additions are accounted for as follows: - Increments under awards and regulations, £750; provision for salaries of officers, who were paid under another division in the Estimates for 1920-21, £1,016; provision for pay of permanent staff in lieu of temporary staff at present employed, £4,410, cost of living allowance to officers in the United Kingdon charged to other votes in 1920-1921. I was much impressed by the remarks made by honorable members of the Royal Commission appointed to inquire into the administration of Cockatoo Island. They complained of the great number of men who were employed as temporary hands. I found, on going into the matter, that men who in some cases had been working in the office for over ten years were still regarded as temporary employees. After going into the question with the Naval Board, I decided to re-organize the office. The war being over, I was able to make changes which were previously impossible. While the war was in- progress, our principal ships were overseas, and a great deal of the work now done at the Navy Offices in Lonsdale-street was then carried out by a staff in Great Britain. Our ships having returned to Australian waters that work is once more being done at this end. I found it necessary to reorganize the whole staff. After careful inquiry by a Board appointed for the purpose, and subsequently by the Naval Board, it was determined that certain men who were filling offices that were likely to be permanent should be appointed to the permanent staff. As a consequence, we have these increases in respect of establishment and so forth. I hope this explanation will be satisfactory to the honorable member for Balaclava.

Mr MARKS:
Wentworth

.- After the strenuous way in which I used my voice last night I do not feel disposed to speak at length; but there are one or two matters relating to these Estimates concerning which I have a few observations to offer. I indorse the remarks made by the Minister for the Navy (Mr. Laird Smith) with regard to the training of midshipmen at the Naval College at Jervis Bay. During the war - I think it was in 1915 or 1916 - when the first batch of Australian midshipmen reached the Grand Fleet at Scapa, the late Admiral Sir Robert Lowry, who. was then in charge of the Fleet on the north-east coast of Scotland, remarked to me that they were the smartest lot of midshipmen that had come under his notice. They were absolutely efficient, and were a splendid advertisement for the Australian Naval College. Then again, in an examination held recently in England for the rank of engineer sub-lieutenant, Australian candidates were first, second, and third on the list. We should endeavour to carry on the Royal Australian Naval College, although I agree that the expenditure should be kept as low as possible. We do not know what will be the effect of the Washington Conference on our Navy. I do not want to prophesy in this case, but I am certain that the Australian Navy of the future will consist of light cruisers, destroyers, submarines, and, naturally, aircraft. All these ships will require midshipmen. I can appreciate the difficulty of .the Minister and the Naval Board in trying to adjust the expenditure on the College to the measure of efficiency that is being secured. The Minister will remember that when the Estimates were before us on a previous occasion I suggested several directions in which the Naval College might be put to good use. One of my suggestions - and this is a very important matter - related to the flying branch. Every flying man, whether civilian ot military, should undergo a course at the Naval College at Jervis Bay in order that he may obtain proficiency in what I might describe as “ sea sense.” An airman working over a ship of war, unless he is conversant with her helm movements, will experience great difficulty in effectively dropping his bombs. Airmen will also experience difficulty unless they have the “sea sense” of which I speak, when they have to go out with our ships in certain formations. It is for these reasons that I urge that all airmen should be required to undergo training at the Naval College. I would ask the Minister to make a note of this matter. It is of much importance, and I hope that my suggestion will be adopted. The Naval College might also be used to educate officers of the mercantile marine in the very important work of the convoy system. During the war a huge amount of work was put in by the Admiralty in teaching officers of the mercantile marine how to convoy ships. I was for a time submarine officer on the Carmania, which was employed in conveying American officers and troops from New York to Liverpool. Sometimes as many as eighteen or twenty vessels of from 20,000 tons to 30,000 tons burthen would be steaming along in four columns abreast, at night, without a light to guide the officers. There was nothing to give any sense of direction or to warn those on board a vessel of the proximity of other ships, and on many occasions there were narrow escapes from collisions which would have resulted in serious loss of life. It was only because the officers of those vessels were highly trained in the convoy system that we got the American troops safely across. I may remind honorable members that 65 per cent, of the American troops that went to England were taken over on British bottoms, with a British naval convoy. The Royal Australian Naval College might well be used to train officers of the mercantile marine in the convoy system. Officers of the mercantile marine have the right to go in certain numbers to the Royal Naval College at Greenwich, and there spend several days every year in getting “ brushed up “ in the latest ideas of modern navigation. The same facilities might very well be extended to members of the mercantile marine to attend the Naval College at Jervis Bay. The honorable member for Cowper (Dr. Earle Page) suggested that the Army and Naval medical services should be combined. That is not a practical suggestion. There is always a certain degree of jealousy on the part of the various services, and once we started to amalgamate those services, in which there are divergent ranks and officers in various grades we should have trouble. Better results will be obtainedby keeping the Army and Navy medical services distinct, as they are to-day. There is an item in these Estimates relating to the training ship Tingira, which costs £64,000 a year. It is really a most excellent institution, and well handled. Prom discussions that I have had with the Minister I know that he is considering the desirableness of transferring that vessel to Jervis Bay, and so saving the expense of maintaining double staffs. The lads might be kept on shore, and sent to sea now and again on a smaller ship. In that way some portion of this expenditure of £64,000 per annum might be saved. I am very glad that no criticism has been levelled at the item of £5,000 for the Royal Australian Naval Volunteer Reserve. That item represents a new movement. The proposal is to train the yachtsmen of Australia so that, if necessary, they may be employed in the future as naval officers. This scheme, once it has been fairly started, will involve the Commonwealth in very little cost. “When the war broke out in England there were no officers available for the auxiliary services, such as submarine chasing, mine sweeping, &c, and officers had to be obtained from Canada and New Zealand. Unfortunately, the authorities did not seek to obtain any from Australia, where we have a very fine body of yachtsmen.While I was at the Royal Naval College at Greenwich some 600 yachtsmen were put through all branches of navigation, and also went through gunnery courses and other training. The proposal is that we shall adopt the same scheme, although on a smaller scale, so that we may have this reserve force of highly-trained men on which to fall back should trouble at any time arise. I am pleased that this item has been included in the Estimates, and I hope that no exception will be taken to it. I know the Minister, with the assistance of the Naval Board, has done everything possible to secure efficiency at a minimum of cost. . The vote for this Department seems to me to be a large one, and it is; but, as the honorable member for Balaclava (Mr. Watt) said, we are “treading water” in order to see what actually happens at the Washington Disarmament Conference. If the Estimates can be reduced, I would like the Minister to suggest in what direction; and, if he thinks they cannot be reduced, I trust he will stand “pat,” and take a vote of the Committee.

Mr WATT:
Balaclava

– I say, with every respect, that the explanation of the Minister for the Navy (Mr. Laird Smith), partial as it was, was perfunctory and entirely unsatisfactory. I intend to move for a substantial reduction to test the Government’s desire toeconomize and to reflect the feeling of our envoy in Washington in favour of naval disarmament. I remind the Committee that a week or two ago, when discussing the Defence Estimates, a proposal was mooted for a substantial reduction in the Naval Estimates, and the Prime Minister (Mr. Hughes) said it was an unsafe policy at this stage to place some of our vessels out of commission. He told ns that the British Government were not doing anything of the kind; but the following morning, with dramatic suddenness, a cable appeared in the press showing exactly what the British Government were doing. According to the cabled information, she was making substantial cuts in her naval programme; but I understand that in connexion with the upkeep and maintenance of our Fleet we are increasing, rather than decreasing, our naval expenditure this year. There should be a substantial reduction, because some of our larger vessels are now out of commission, and the cost of maintenance and upkeep must be considerably less.

I desire to refer briefly to the question of oil supplies. We are now getting our fuel oil from the East. ‘Between those sources and the north coast of Australia there are almost innumerable islands which could shelter enemy submarines capable of cutting off the Commonwealth from her fuel oil supplies. I have been authoritatively informed that there is practically no storage of oil in Australia to-day; and, since the ships of our Navy consume only fuel oil, the situation is serious. The subject is one upon which honorable members should be furnished with the most complete information available.

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
Minister for the Navy · Denison · NAT

. -I shall be glad to give all the particulars within my power. The honorable member for Wentworth (Mr. Marks) was right when he said that nobody can say to-day what maybe the naval requirements of the Empire in the near future. I assure honorable members that the Naval Board has been fully alive to its responsibilities in this direction. Indeed, it has anticipated Imperial decisions by agreeing to such considerable reductions as have been made in respect of our ships and the Naval Training College. ‘Regarding the latter institution, there were in 1919- 20 116 students at Jervis Bay; in 1920- 21, 100 students; and for the current financial year provision has been made for 85 students. The naval authorities are most anxious to adequately place our naval cadets, when their education shall have been completed.

There have been in Australia two schools of naval thought. One has favoured battleships costing fully £7,000,000 each to construct. I ask honorable members to consider what one ship - even such as that - could do, being only in one place at one time around our extensive coastline. It would be idle to ask Parliament to grant £7,000,000 for the construction of one capital ship. The other school of thought prefers the creation of a fleet of light cruisers and submarines. The Commonwealth naval authorities have adopted that policy and are proceeding upon it. Reference has been made to the trials which have been given the units of our Fleet. When Admiral Grant went to Singapore to represent Australia at the Naval Conference the cruiser Brisbane was subjected to a severe test. In the tropics, under most adverse conditions, that vessel was given speed trials. She was manned largely by young Australians who had been trained in Australia; this comment refers especially to the stokers. Upon a four hours’ run in the tropics, the Brisbane was driven at a speed of nearly 25 knots an hour. Such a rate has been regarded by experts as something to be proud of. I know the young commander-engineer on that vessel. He is a Tasmanian who was trained in the same engineering workshops as myself. After the Brisbane had completed her trials an examination was made of the log-book, and it revealed that there had not been found one hot bearing. Speed, of course, is one of the most important factors in the consideration of defence and offence. It should be almost unnecessary for me to refer to the treatment meted out to the Emden by the Sydney. I have been credibly informed, by the way, that from the moment when the German vessel was seen to be in danger of sinking - for which reason she made for the shore - not one more shot was fired from the Sydney. All the damage which the enemy cruiser sustained occurred while the two vessels were exchangingshots.

In addition to the vessels which are in commission it is hoped to have a much more up-to-date cruiser ready to take her place in the Fleet shortly; I refer to the Adelaide. The Australian Navy, as it exists to-day, represents the most effective naval defence which the Commonwealth can hope to possess in relation to the amount of money spent. The Naval Board is anxious to continue the exercises which the various units have been conducting; for only by practical manoeuvres can the ships he maintained in a state of efficiency. They have recently undertaken long and heavy tests, during some of the time in practically uncharted waters. I have made it my duty to get into close touch with all ranks, and to gain such knowledge as a landsman can obtain concerning the various units by travelling with them, and being present while exercises are proceeding.

Mr Watt:

– The Minister has been taking what is known as a naval holiday.

Mr LAIRD SMITH:

– I can assure the honorable member that it was not much of a holiday, from the point of view of a landsman.

With respect to fuel oil, the naval authorities are desirous of building up a reserve, but funds available will not permit the establishment of a full reserve. The Board desires to learn of the discovery of a suitable fuel oil in Australia, or of a retort capable of successfully treating our shale. Admiral Clarkson has been continuously in communication with experts in all parts of the world, and particularly with certain persons in Scotland, with the object of securing a retort which can satisfactorily treat the Australian deposits.

Mr BRENNAN:
Batman

.– While listening to the Minister for the Navy (Mr. Laird Smith), I have been wondering whether the report is really true that he is likely shortly to have command of one of those capital ships in Australian waters, in which he is taking so keen an interest. Even ‘at the risk of defeating the object of the honorable member for Balaclava (Mr. Watt), and although my support may do him damage in his electorate, I must support his amendment. I must do my duty whatever the cost may be. A great deal of money has already been wasted in connexion with our naval activities, and these Estimates provide an excellent opportunity of endeavouring to lift some of the unholy burden which rests upon the country in connexion with our so-called naval defence. The Minister has dealt proudly with the past history of the Navy. He has spoken with a pride that seems to scintillate on the brow of one who hopes at some time to be a Naval Lord, of the performance of the Sydney in connexion with the destruction or overtaking of the German ship Emden.

Sir Granville Ryrie:

– You know that you have no pride in naval matters.

Mr BRENNAN:

– I hope that the Assistant Minister for Defence will, at the conclusion of my remarks, take an opportunity of elaborating what he has said by interjection by giving the Committee the benefit of his views on my views upon naval and military defence4 He says he knows all about it, and I am sure the Committee and the country should know what he knows/ because real wisdom emanates from him. All these vessels about which the Minister for the Navy speaks with such pride, if they are not already fit for the scrap heap, will certainly be fit for it long before even the most optimistic belligerent can hope that we will have any sea fighting or land fighting again. Militarists can see fighting in the immediate future. In the popular language of the honorable member for Dalley (Mr. Mahony), they are ready to call out the “ dogs of war” at a moment’s- notice, especially those generals who are drawing pensions and are not likely to be called upon to fight. However, I do not see any fighting ahead in the ‘immediate future. I see only in the proposals of the Government an extravagant waste of money to which I cannot be a party. Therefore, I welcome this opportunity of supporting a movement’ for some reduction in this expenditure. I do not propose to take up the time of the Committee, because, in the familiar language of the painful after-dinner speaker, “the hour is getting late,” and the week is far advanced, but when I hear the Minister for the Navy speaking as he does pf the young Australians who are. to be induced to join the Royal Australian Navy, I derive some consolation from the knowledge that there are not many young Australians falling over one another* to join the Navy. In fact, there are” a good many of them now in the Navy who would be only too glad to get out of it. There are only too many who, beguiled by the blandishments of those who .held out to them the attractiveness of a naval career, would now be only too glad to rid themselves of this conscription which is wrapped up in naval defence. I have not lost sight’ of the fact that, while there is no conscription for land service overseas, there has always been, and still is, the pernicious conscription of boys for service at sea. Youths who a year or two ago allowed themselves to be articled, if I may use the word, as naval cadets, find themselves to-day after a few years of experience and with more mature judgment, bound to this engine of the Navy by clamps that are too strong for them to rend asunder. I want to get rid of this system ofnaval conscription, just as I fought the principle of conscription for fighting overseas in connexion with our land Forces. I have not very much hope that a great revolution is going to result from the Conference that is now proceeding at “Washington. I see no prospect of any resultbut a pleasant re-arrangement among the different nations that while they will reduce their naval armaments they will still preserve the existing ratio. But, although my hopes are not high in regard to what is being done in Washington, it still behoves us to join in the peace chorus on behalf of those who are against the whole system, and who would cheerfully see all the engines of destruction lowered to-morrow to the bottom of thesea. Not for the reason which the Assistant Minister for Defence suggests animates me, but for a better and higher reason which the honorable gentleman could never understand or appreciate, I shall support the proposal submitted by the honorable member for Balaclava to lop off some of the proposed expenditure on the Naval Estimates.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

.- After the speech just delivered by the honorable member for Batman (Mr. Brennan) I was hoping that we should have some evidence that the Minister for the Navy (Mr: Laird Smith) would pull out of one of his pockets the trump card we have been expecting all night, because we were definitely promised by the Minister that, there would be a reduction of £80,000 in these Estimates.

Mr Watt:

– The Prime Minister promised a total reduction of £130,000 in the Naval Estimates.

Mr Laird Smith:

– You have already got that.

Mr.Greene. - A sum of £80,000 has already been taken off the Naval Works Estimates and £50,000 off the Naval Air rote, making £130,000 in all.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– I have followed the debates on these Estimates as per sistently as has any other honorable member, and I cannot recall the reductions which correspond with the amounts the Minister has mentioned. If I remember rightly, the amounts by which the Estimates have been reduced are as follow:£80,000 off the Naval Works, £250,000 off Military Works, and £100,000 off the Air Services.

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Out of the £100,000 off the Air Services £50,000 was on the Naval side. It was so stated at the time.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– I have often heard that figures are capable of being interpreted in any way. I regret that I cannot accept the conclusion that the amount of £130,000 has already been taken off the Naval votes, and in the circumstances I must hold out for some further reduction of these Estimates.

Question - That the amendment (Mr. Watt’s) be agreed to - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 14

NOES: 23

Majority . . 9

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Motion (by Dr. Earle Page) proposed -

That the proposed vote be reduced by £50,000.

Mr WATT:
Balaclava

.- The explanation offered by the Minister (Mr. Laird Smith) concerning the Naval Establishments was wholly insufficient to meet the case. There are two items in Division 88, sub-division 2 (Contingencies) that have yet to be explained. One is the amount of £75,000 for “ general expenses and upkeep of dockyard and other services, maintenance of machinery and floating craft, temporary assistance, and all other expenditure incidental to the Sydney Naval Establishments.” The second item is, “ General expenses and upkeep, including travelling expenses, stationery, fuel and light, telephones, and all other expenditure incidental to other Naval Establishments- £30,000.” The two items make a total of £105,000, as against £30,000 voted last year. Knowing something of how these Estimates were formerly prepared, I cannot understand why the increase was asked for, or why it should be deemed by the Government or the Committee to be necessary. In Division 89 there is £50,000 set down to be paid to the credit of a trust fund called the “Uniform, Clothing, and Necessaries (Naval) Account.” The amount voted last year was £15,000, and that amount was expended. There must be some special reason why all the charges for uniform in the Department have been increased so substantially, yet there has been no explanation forthcoming. I support the amendment, and I think the Minister should briefly give us an explanation of these two divisions.

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
Minister for the Navy · Denison · NAT

-I shall be very glad to give the information sought. The total amount asked for in Division 88, sub-division 2, is £105,000, as against £36,877 expended in 1920-21. The increase is due in the first place to the cost of upkeep of Garden Island Dockyard services, maintenance of machinery, yard lighting, maintenance of harbor craft, including wages, coal, and repairs, being included under this item instead of under Subdivision 1 of Division 79 (item 3), “Repair and maintenance of ships,” as in previous years. In the second place, there is provision for certain expenditure at the naval establishments at Flinders, Swan Island and Osborne House, Geelong, which was previously charged to other votes. Additional expenditure is necessary owing to the cost of upkeep of the Flinders Naval Depot being heavier than at Williamstown. Moreover, awards and basic wage allowance, including child endowment, and increase under awards, are payable for the full year in 1921-22, whereas they were paid for only a portion of 1920-21. Regarding the item “Uniform, clothing, and necessaries,” the reason for the increase of £35,000 is that at present clothing stocks are very low, and it is imperative that some replenishment be made as early as possible, in order that the clothing may be available for issue on repayment*. A large proportion of the orders for uniform clothing is placed with the Commonwealth Clothing Factory. This money is simply placed into a trust fund. The men buy the clothing, which is made in our own factory, and we allow them to have it at cost price. We should all be proud to see how well these men are clothed under these conditions.

Question - That the amendment (Dr. Earle Page’s) be agreed to - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 16

NOES: 22

Majority . . . . 6

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Departments of Navy and Defence (Air Services)

Proposed vote, £100,000.

Mr CHARLTON:
Hunter

– I do not know why the Committee should be asked to vote this -large sum, in addition to the £300,000 we have already voted on the Works Estimates. It will be noted that the proposed vote for civil aviation is £28,794, and for military aviation £71,406. I have no objection to civil aerial services, but I take strong exception to the establishment of a new branch of the defence system. I realize, however, that it is not much use asking for a reduction of the vote, unless the Government are prepared to make it. In view of the fact that we have already voted £300,000 for this branch, we are not justified in voting another £71,000. I make this protest because I do not wish to be held in any way responsible when this branch of the Service grows large in the future. I venture to say that within two or three years’ time the amount involved will be £1,000,000. Then we shall complain of the expenditure, and now is the time to register a protest. . I move -

That the proposed vote be reduced by £71,406.

Mr WATT:

– I should like to know; the Minister has said either too much or too little.

Mr Marks:

– If it means the “ scrapping “ of our new machines, the reduction ought not to be made.

Mr WATT:

– We would all consent to’ savings on the defence side being transferred to the civil aviation branch, for chopping off figures does not necessarily mean economy.

Amendment negatived.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Department of Trade and Customs.

Proposed vote, £745,357.

Mr HIGGS:
Capricornia

.– Some time ago the Prime Minister (Mr. Hughes), in answer to questions respecting German and Austrian trade, said he desired honorable members to express their opinions, and, though the hour is late, there may not be another opportunity before the recess to discuss the prohibition of trade and commerce with those two countries. We are the only nation in the world that now refuses to trade with Germany and Austria.

Mr McGrath:

– The Prime Minister said he would never trade with Germany again !

Mr HIGGS:

– That is so, and he was loudly cheered when he made that declaration at the Melbourne Town Hall in 1919. I believe that, honorable members will sympathetically receive the opinions I am about to express. We are in great, anxiety about our future; and looking with hopes to the ^League of Nations and the Washington Conference. Yet we continue a policy of post-war hate against a nation, which in. 1914 was certainly the first military power, and the second naval power. We adopt this attitude, towards Germany, but at the same time we are buying machinery, or giving permission to certain people to import machinery from that country. For example, the Victorian Government is buying briquetting machinery from Germany, because it cannot be obtained anywhere else. If the German people passed a law preventing any German manufacturers from selling their manufactures to Australia because the Commonwealth has adopted that attitude, towards Germany, we should immediately come to the conclusion that Germany was contemplating another war oi7 the British Empire. I am hopeful that whatever the Prime Minister may have said to the effect that he would never again trade with Germany, ‘better and wiser counsels will prevail. I am led to this view because at a recent meeting in the Melbourne Town Hall, two years after that at which he said that he would never again trade with Germany, the right honorable gentleman said -

The world to-day would ‘he saved by the spirit, and by the spirit only. It must have faith in itself; belief that its cause is just; belief that not by a gospel of hate could it be saved, but by a gospel of love.

I quite agree with those sentiments, and I hope that we shall abandon the gospel of hate towards Germany.

We cannot, in justice to ourselves, allow foreign goods to come into this country at so low a rate of duty as would enable them to compete unfairly with the products of our own manufacturers and producers. We have a right to impose the highest Customs duties which we consider necessary to protect Australian manufacturers, but, having imposed these duties, whatever they may be, 45 per cent., or 50 per cent. - even though they should amount to 100 per cent., we should not absolutely prohibit any nation from trading with Australia. All the glory of Germany as the first military Power in the world and the second naval Power, has disappeared. By the Treaty of Peace -

Germany renounces in favour of the principal Allied and Associated Powers all her rights and titles over her overseas possessions. (Article 119.)

All movable and immovable property in such territories belonging to the German Empire or to any German State shall pass to the Governiment exercising authority over such territories, on the terms laid down in Article 257 of Part IX. within (financial clauses) of the present Treaty. The decision of the local Courts in any dispute as to the nature of such property shall be final. ( Article 120.)

Germany renounces in favour of China all benefits and privileges resulting from the provisions of the final Protocol signed at Pekin on September 7, 1901, and from all annexes, notes, and documents supplementary thereto. She likewise renounces in favour of China any claim to indemnities accruing thereunder subsequent to March 14, 1917. (Article 128.)

Germany recognises that all treaties, conventions, and agreements between her and Siam, and all rights, titles, and privileges derived therefrom, including all rights of extra territorial jurisdiction, terminated as from July 22, 1917. (Article 135.)

All goods and property in Siam belonging to the German Empire or to any German State, with the exception of premises used as diplo matic or consular residences or offices, past ipso facto and without compensation to the Siamese Government. (Article 136.)

Germany renounces all rights and privileges arising from the arrangement of 1911 and 1912 regarding Liberia, and particularly the right to nominate a German Receiver of Customs in Liberia. She further renounces all claim to participate in any measures whatever which may be adopted for the rehabilitation of Liberia. (Article 138.)

Germany renounces all rights, titles and privileges conferred on her by the General Act of Algeciras of April 7, 1906, and by the Franco-German agreements of February 9, 1909, and November, 4, 1911. All treaties, agreements, arrangements, and contracts concluded by her with the Sherifian Empire are regarded as abrogated as from August 3, 1914.

In no case can Germany take advantage of these instruments, and she undertakes not to intervene in any way in negotiations relating to Morocco, which may take place between France and the other Powers. (Article 141.)

Germany renounces in favour of Japan all her rights, titles; and privileges - particularly those concerning the territories of Kiao-chow railways, mines, and submarine cables - which she acquired in virtue of the Treaty concluded by her with Chinaon March 6, 1898, and all other arrangements relative to the Province of Shantung. (Article 156.) .

Here is a very important clause in the Treaty of Peace -

The German military forces shall be demobilized and reduced as prescribed hereinafter within. (Article 159.)

The reduction of the strength of the German military forces as provided for in Article 160 may be effected gradually in the following manner: -

Within three months from the coming into force of the present Treaty the total number of effectives must be reduced to 200,000, and the number of units must not exceed twice the number of those laid down in Article 160.

At the expiration of this period and at the end of each subsequent period of three months, a Conference of military experts of the principal Allied and Associated Powers will fix the reductions to be made in the ensuing three months, so that by March 21, 1920, at the latest, the total number of German effectives does not exceed the maximum number of 100,000 men laid down in Article 160. In these successive reductions the same ratio between the number of officers and of men, andbetween the various kinds of units, shall be maintained as is laid down in that Article. (Article. 163.)

Mr Marks:

– M. Briand said recently that Germany can put 6,000,000 men in the field to-day.

Mr HIGGS:

– I dare say that is quite possible.

Mr Watt:

– He did not say that. He said that in Germany there was a potential army of 6,000,000 trained men.

Mr HIGGS:

– That may well he so. No matter what we may do with regard to Germany or any other nation there will always he that potential strength and energy which exists within the nation itself. If we take our own case, I suppose it may he said that we have a potential army in this country of at least 500,000 men. Germany has agreed to reduce her army in the manner described, and it has further agreed that -

Universal compulsory military service shall be abolished in Germany.’ The German Army may only be constituted and recruited by means of a voluntary enlistment. (Article 173.)

All fortified works, fortresses, and field works situated in German territory to the west of a line drawn 50 kilometers to the east of the Rhine shall be disarmed and dismantled within. (Article180.)

May I express the opinion that all our attempts in this direction to force a nation to be peaceful must fail unless we have the whole of the other nations of the world with us in a huge League of Nations. Because the people of any nation, and particularly those possessed of the history, intelligence, and capacity of the German people can, if they so desire, prepare for a future war. I am proposing to submit a motion for the consideration of honorable members, because I think we should abandon the policy of post-war hate and should make friends of Germany and Austria as soon as we possibly can. The following decisions were arrived at at the Peace Treaty regarding the German Navy : -

After the expiration of a period of two months from the coming into force of the present Treaty, the German Naval Forces in commission must not exceed - 6 batttleships of the Deutshland or Lothringen type, 6 light cruisers, 12 destroyers 12 torpedo boats, or an equal number of ships constructed to re place them, as provided in Article 190.

No submarines are to be included.

All other warships except where there is provision to the contrary in the present Treaty must be placed in reserve or devoted to commercial purposes. (Article 181.)

Within a period of two months from the coming into force of the present Treaty the German surface warships enumerated below will be surrendered to the Governments of the Principal Allied and Associated Powers in such Allied ports as the said Power may direct.

These warships will have been disarmed as provided by Article XXIII. of the Armistice of 11th November, 1918. Nevertheless, they must have all their guns on board.

Battleships - Oldenburg, Tlwringen, Ostriesland, Helgoland, Posen, Westfalen,Rheinland, Nassau;

Light Cruisers - Stettin, Danzig, Munchun, Lubeck, Stralsund, Augsburg, Kolberg, Stuttgart; and in addition forty-two modern destroyers and fifty modern torpedo boats, as chosen by the Governments of the Principal Allied and Associated Powers. (Article 185.)

On the coming into force of the present Treaty the German Government must undertake under supervision of the Governments of the Principal Allied and Associated Powers the breaking up of all the German surface warships now under construction. (Article 186.)

The armed forces of Germany must not include any’ Military or Naval Air Forces. (Article 198.)

The CHAIRMAN (Hon J M Chanter:

– The honorable member is going outside the Department under consideration.

Mr HIGGS:

– I shall not pursue that line of argument at further length. Briefly, it may be said that Germany has ceased to have any Navy worth considering. The figures embodied in the reparation terms imposed upon Germany are astounding. I think it would be an imposition upon honorable members at this late hour to go into this matter as fully as its importance deserves, but I may mention that the total amount payable under the Articles of the Peace Treaty was fixed at no less than £6,600,000,000. Honorable members will have read in this morning’s newspapers that Sir George Paish, a leading financier and adviser to the British Government, has expressed the opinion that the present German reparation scheme is impossible. He said -

Germany could not even make the reduced payment fixed at the Spa Conference. If owing to non-payment the Allies occupied the Ruhr regions, seized Germany’s Customs, and controlled her finances, it would lead to the destruction, not only of Germany, but of ourselves and the whole world. Germany could not make any payments till Europe was restored. Then she could make moderate payments. Formerly he believed she could not pay more than £50,000,000 a year. Now he believed she could pay £100,000,000.

The CHAIRMAN:

– I am loth to intervene, but the honorable gentleman must see that he is opening up the whole question of reparations. His intimation to me was that it was his intention to deal with one question, and to obtain the opinion of the Committee with regard to the abolition of the restrictions upon trade and commerce with Germany.

Mr HIGGS:

– I admit that I may have gone a little further than would be justified by a strict interpretation pf the Standing Orders, but in a matter like this one can scarcely submit a motion expressing the desirability of resuming trade relations with Germany without saying something which will indicate to people outside the reasons which prompt him to take that course.

Mr Watt:

– Does the honorable member think he has adopted the proper way in which -to deal with so important a question? The matter is not introduced by the Government, but by a private member, and to the Committee of Supply, and not to> the whole House.

Mr Brennan:

– The Prime Minister wants to sneak it in in this way.

Mr Watt:

Department. Personally, I have not been satisfied with the administration of the Act. Where there has been fraudulent trading - that is to say, the selling of inferior goods to the detriment of the trade of Australia - I do not think that sufficiently drastic action has been taken to expose those who have taken advantage of the insufficient powers of the Minister.

Mr McWilliams:

– I think the power is quite sufficient.

Mr GREGORY:

– I do not know that it is. There may have been difficulties iu the way, and I am not going to express any condemnation. When we are spending large sums of money in. connexion with an Act such as this, and it is found that any individual corporation or company has been guilty of fraudulent trading, the sooner the fraud is exposed, and the sooner we take steps to build up a reputation for honest trading, the better it will be for the Australian people. I hope that very strong action will be taken by the Minister (Mr. Greene) upon any occasion when such fraudulent practices are disclosed. I asked a question recently in regard to theforestry laboratory in Perth. Some years ago a laboratory was established in that city for the purpose of making investigations in regard to the manufacture of wood-pulp paper and tanning. I believe magnificent work has been done by that organization. There was a committee of gentlemen who were giving their services absolutely free, and doing very special work for the purpose of assisting in building up industries in this country. I am afraid that the new Director of Science and Industry (Mr. Knibbs) has been over-desirous to centre in Melbourne the control of the organization and to prevent a continuance of activities in Western Australia. They have had special opportunities in Perth, and have done remarkably good work. The newspaper proprietors throughout Australia have assisted by subscribing large sums of money for the purpose of carrying on investigations. The investigations in regard to the manufacture of paper have been particularly successful, and the laboratory has also demonstrated some very fine tanning properties. There is not the slightest doubt but that that small laboratory, which has been carried on at very small expense, has been of very great advantage to science and industry in

Australia. I am afraid that Mr. Knibbs has been somewhat antagonistic to the continuance of #the work. I want the Minister (Mr. Greene) to understand that I am not asking for the expenditure of a large sum of money. The sums of money mentioned by him in answer to my question the other day I had never dreamed of, although I think he would be more than justified in spending enormous sums of money on a laboratory of that kind. I want him, while controlling the Trade and Customs Department, to assist the laboratory in every possible way, and to take care that there is not that centralization which is the unfortunate feature of the departmental mind. If such a “laboratory, situated in Western Australia or Queensland, can do something of advantage to the whole of Australia, and not merely to the State in which it is situated, it will be carrying on a work of value. I hope the Minister appreciates the wonderful work that has been done. Some members of this Committee, including members of the Opposition, saw with me a demonstration in that little laboratory in Perth, and I think they will agree that it is doing particularly useful work. The people themselves have contributed almost wholly to the expenditure. I was rather surprised to find that, after having appointed a Director of Science and Industry,, cold water was being thrown on a project which, if continued, would do much to establish important industries in i this country.

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– It has been very refreshing to hear the speech of the honorable member for Capricornia (Mr. Higgs). Just why the honorable member should feel this responsibility thrust upon him I am at a loss to see for the time being. Ho enunciated views that have been expressed for some years past from this side of the House; and I think it is the feeling of the majority of the people of this country, just as it is the feeling of the people in all the Allied countries since the conclusion of the war, that it is an utterly foolish policy to take up the attitude of the Prime . Minister (Mr. Hughes), who said, shortly after the war was over, “ If you want to trade with Germany you must get a new leader.” He has maintained that attitude right up to his last public utterance on the subject. Whatever the result may be, whether we trade with Germany or not, if it is in the power of the Prime Minister we shall still have the same leader. I hope, however, that he will not have the settlement of that very vexed question of leadership in his own hands. . Having said this very often, he now finds himself in a dilemma as the .Leader of a Government which is the only Government in the countries that were recently at war with Germany which is pursuing that stupid policy. He is looking for a way out in order to get rid of the responsibility which necessarily and essentially is his own. Finding himself unable to take up that responsibility, he has evidently arranged with the honorable member for Capricornia to show him a way out.

Mr Brennan:

– Whatever the decision is, the Prime Minister will take credit to himself ; he will be on the right side, anyway.

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– That is so. Latterly he said, “ I will not trade with Germany. I will not consent to it.” Now, when he finds every other country in the world doing what he has so long refused to do, he says, “ Parliament must take the responsibility for this action.” The responsibility should not be thrust upon Parliament; it rests upon the Government.

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member is evidently in favour of trading with Germany.

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I have always been in favour of it. Surely it is not wrong for me to follow the lead of the Mother Country in this matter. The Prime Minister says that he does not agree with the Mother Country in this instance. Evidently he agrees with what she does only when it suits him to do so.

Mr Higgs:

– The Prime Minister made no arrangement with me.

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– The honorable member said that he wrote directly to the Prime Minister, who replied that if Parliament agreed to what was proposed he had no objection. Recently, however, the right honorable gentleman said, “You must get another leader if you wish this country to trade with Germany.” Now he says, “ If Parliament agrees to trade with Germany, I have no objection.” His. attitude is, “ Do anything you like, ,but do not remove me from the leadership.” As every other country is trading with Germany, why should not Australia do so? A few days ago I asked the Prime Minister why should not the Australian wool, of which Germany is buying thousands of pounds’ worth from England, be bought direct from Australia, and he, as usual, camouflaged the position by replying that any one with wool to sell could sell it to Germany. It is obvious, of course, that if we do not trade direct with Germany that country will not trade with us. Germany has already got what Australia and the other countries which are represented at Washington are merely striving for; that is, she has got disarmament. She saves £300,000,000 a year in the upkeep of her Army and Navy, and now her factories are working day and night.

Mr McWilliams:

– Did not Mr. Balfour, the other day, express the hope that Germany would soon be in the League of Nations?

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I believe so. I could not imagine our ‘ Prime Minister saying that. How can Germany pay her huge war indemnity if the present foolish policy is persisted in? As a matter of fact, German goods are coming here now through indirect channels. I am glad that the Government and its supporters have come to the way of thinking of honorable members on this side of the chamber, who have declared the policy of the Prime Minister in this matter to be a foolish one. The right, honorable gentleman, recognising the stupidity of his ,position, is trying to get out of it in his usual way by saying to honorable members, “ You take the responsibility.” Later, if he is confronted with his declaration about the leadership, he will tell the electors that Parliament, not he, was responsible. I object to him shirking his responsibility in the matter; but now that he must know that the majority of his own supporters have come back to sanity on this matter, let him do the sensible thing. At all events, he can rest assured that I and members on this side of the House will stand where we have consistently stood.

Mr Higgs:

– The honorable member is misrepresenting the Prime Minister and myself in saying that the right honorable gentleman made an arrangement with me. I assure him that that is not so. This is what I wrote to the Prime Minister yesterday morning, after I had stated in the House my intention to move the amendment -

My dear Prime Minister,-

In accordance with your request - repeated at least twice - that honorable members should express their opinion regarding trade with Germany, I made the following statement this morning when the House met : - “I desire to give notice that I propose when the Estimates for the Trade and Customs Department come on for discussion to move as a friendly amendment - ‘ That item No. 1 be reduced by the sum” of £1 as an intimation to the Government that, in the opinion of the Committee, the restrictions on trade and commerce between the Commonwealth of Australia and Germane and Austria should be removed forthwith.’ “

I hope yon will see no objection to this method of procedure.

The Prime Minister met me somewhere about 12 o’clock, and said, in answer to my inquiry, that it would be all right.

Mr FOLEY:
Kalgoorlie

.I wish to bring under the notice of the Minister a matter to which his attention has already been directed - that is, the conditions of the jute trade with India. I was recently asked by persons in Western Australia to do this. Our jute goods - cornsacks, branbags, woolpacks, and the like - come from Calcutta and its neighbourhood.

The CHAIRMAN (Hon J M Chanter:

– As an amendment has been moved on Item 1, the honorable member must confine his remarks to it, and I shall be compelled to submit to the Committee the vote for each division, although the understanding was that the Department should be taken as a whole.

Mr Higgs:

– In order that, the honorable member may not be deprived of his opportunity to speak on the matter that be wishes to discuss, I wish to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The Committee will understand that the whole Department is now open .for discussion.

Mr FOLEY:

– Reverting to the jute trade, I “am informed that contracts are entered into between the jute manufacturers, of India and the Australian merchants who import jute goods, under which these goods have to conform with standards fixed by the Department, the contracts being made on the understanding that the goods sent will pass the departmental officials. Before jute goods are despatched from India, credit notes have to be sent from Australia, which means that the Indian manufacturers are paid in advance. I wish to give one or two examples of what actually happens, to the prejudice of our merchants, and ultimately to that of our farmers and graziers, because they have to pay more for their bags, sacks, and packs. In one case brought under my notice 100 bales df jute -goods purchased at high prices were condemned in bond by the Customs officials, but when the importers sent back the shipment to Bengal, complaining that it was not up to the standard contracted for, the manufacturers, who had already received their money, replied that the goods were up to the requirements of the contract, and threw them back on to the hands of the merchants here. Another firm have had the’ir contracts rejected for the same reason, and were prevented from disposing of the bags to New Zealand merchants, who were quite prepared to accept them. I agree with the Minister that we should do all that_ is possible to maintain the good name which Australia has enjoyed hitherto by requiring that goods contained in any receptacle should be up to the Australian standard, but in this case the New Zealand people knew quite well what they were to get, and therefore the action of the Department in preventing Australian merchants from disposing of these goods was somewhat arbitrary.

Mr Jowett:

– ‘What was wrong with the bags?

Mr FOLEY:

– You could shoot peas through some of them. They were not up to the Australian standard. In the recent boom times many mushroom firms, with little or no capital, came into existence. They managed to get a few pounds together and dealt in this class of goods with merchants in Calcutta and elsewhere in India. They were not obliged to forward credit notes, with the result that merchants who were doing legitimate business were placed at a serious disadvantage. The importers of this class of goods say there is a way out of the difficulty. They contend that the addition of £d. per dozen bags would en able the Government to pay for the services of an inspector in India to see that the goods were up to Australian standard. Merchants here would then have some assurance that they were getting what they paid for, and, in turn, they would be able to supply our farmers with jute goods up to the Australian standard. America has inspectors in India, and as a result is getting the best class of jute goods, while we in Australia, not being represented in the same way, are having the inferior goods foisted upon us, and we are obliged to get rid of them as best we can. I put these facts before the Minister for what they may be worth, and trust that some action will be taken along the lines I have indicated.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– I desire, before I conclude, to submit an amendment that the vote be reduced by £25,000, but before doing so I should like to speak about one or two items in these Estimates. I emphasize and support the remarks made by the honorable members for Dampier (Mr. Gregory) and Swan (Mr. Prowse) as to the value of the Forest Products Laboratory in Perth. This institution, established through the generosity of private donors in that State, is doing splendid work in investigating the suitability of certain timbers for the manufacture of paper. Its activities should not be circumscribed in any way. Rather, it should be given the opportunity to test other timbers throughout Australia. A special plant, received two or three months ago, should enable the laboratory to carry out other tests as to the suitability of Australian timbers for’ the manufacture of mechanical pulp. In northern New South Wales considerable expenditure has been incurred in microscopical tests and pulping processes of the softwood timbers which in their character closely approximate to the American timbers from which paper pulp is made. These timbers ought to be tested in other respects in Perth in the way that the hardwood timbers of that State have been tested. The cost would be almost nominal, and the results should be extremely valuable, because I am informed that there is every chance of the paper manufacturing industry being established in Australia on a big scale within the next two or three years. Possession of this information should expedite the development of the industry, which would mean, I suppose, a saving of £2,000,000 or £3,000,000 per annum at present incurred in the purchase of paper overseas.

I should like to know what is being done to combat the present plague epidemic that is gradually moving along the eastern coast of Australia? Plague patients have been discovered in several ports. Stores of serum, prophylactic or curative, should be available at the various ports from Cooktown to Sydney, at which the Inter-State boats call.

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– We are getting it as fast as we can.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– Where from?

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– From the serum laboratory.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– It should be obtained speedily.

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member knows that it takes some little time to prepare.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– I am aware of that, and I was wondering if it could not be procured more speedily from India or China, where,I imagine, there must always be a good deal of it on hand. I should think it could be obtained from either of those sources in from two to three weeks at the outside.

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– We are nearly ready now.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– I desire, also, to mention the request which I made a short time ago, that Mr. Le Souef, Director of the Sydney Zoological Gardens, should be advanced certain expenses which he desired to incur in order to find a source of income for the Bureau of Science and Industry from the sale of Australian seal- skins and marsupial skins. He was going to England, Europe, and America on behalf of the Sydney Zoological Gardens, to arrange for the sale and exchange of animals, and he only wanted £50 to recoup him out-of-pocket expenses in connexion with an inquiry which he would make on behalf of the Bureau concerning the subject I have mentioned. It is probable that his inquiries, if successful, would have resulted in a revenue of anything from £100,000 to £150,000 a year from the preservation and sale of these skins. Unfortunately, the Minister informed me that £50 was too much to expect in these hard times.

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– We get so many of these requests that we cannot possibly meet all of them.. Nearly everybody who goes away asks us to bear portion of the expenditure in connexion with inquiries on behalf of the Government.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– But Mr. Le Souef had put up a definite proposition. It is probably too late to do anything now, but he is still in Europe, and it might be possible to communicate with him, and get him to spend a few days in seeking this information.

In connexion with the Bureau of Science and Industry itself, I should like to know what work is actually being carried out by that body, and to what extent there is co-ordination between it and the various scientific societies already existing in the several States. I have received a letter from a farmer of Mildura, pointing out that -

At present, three or more bodies may be engaged on the same type of experimental work, and it certainly appears desirable that a central body should do good work collecting evidence and progress reports, in cases where the problems are common to more than one State. I will give you two instances of duplication of work, with, as far as I know, no co-operation.

The Indian meal moth (a dried fruit pest). - The recent A.D.F.A. Conference stressed the necessity of dealing with the pest, and propose to create a fund for research. The Mildura Vineyard Protection Board have already done much valuable work on the subject, and issued certain recommendations. The New South Wales Department of Agriculture is also considering it, and there is also a request from a South Australian Horticulturist Bureau that their Department of Agriculture look into the matter.

In regard to treatment of vine diseases, there is also duplication. I understand that the New South Wales Department of Agriculture are making investigations; and investigations have been made, and pamphlets issued, by the Vineyard Protection Board at Mildura.

Thewhole of this work could be carried out by one central body. I should like to ascertain what action has been taken by the Bureau to co-ordinate these various activities and to prevent unnecessary duplication. In moving -

That the proposed vote be reducedby £25,000, which would still leave the total estimates of the Department £5,000 in excess of the amount expended by it last year, I would point out that it is estimated that the Customs revenue this year will be some £5,600,000 less than was collected during 1920-21.

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Does the honorable member suggest that that means that we have not to employ so many men to collect the revenue ?

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– No; but it does not suggest that it is necessary to employ more men.

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Does the honorable member suggest that we are employing more men to collect the Customs revenue?

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

-From what I can gather from the figures in the Budgetpapers the cost of the Central Office and the State collecting offices increased from £255,000 in 1913-14 to £365,000 in 1920- 21, while for 1921-22 the estimated cost is £419,000. The number of permanent employees in Central and State collectingoffices was 1,267 in 1913-14, in 1920- 21 the number had increased to 1,313, and this year we have 1,416.

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member is entirely wrong if he suggests that all those officers are employed in the collection of revenue.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– In the discussion of the finances it has always been urged that one should have regard to the percentage of the cost of collection to the amount of revenue actually collected.

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Judged by that standard, the pre-war expenses were infinitely greater than they have been in later years.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– When I attempted to make a comparison of the cost of collecting income tax with the number of returns that were examined, it was pointed out to me that there was only one safe course to follow, and that was to take the percentage of costs to the amount of revenue collected. Having regard to the estimated huge reduction in the Customs revenue - and judging by present returns that estimate seems likely to be exceeded - there should be room for a reduction of £25,000 in these Estimates.

Mr PROWSE:
Swan

.At the risk of being regarded as a nuisance for daring to speak at this early hour of the morning, I propose to refer to the retarding influence which the Navigation Act has upon Albany, one of the very excellent ports and districts of the Commonwealth. On many occasions, as the Minister (Mr. Greene) is aware, at the request of various bodies in Albany and the surrounding district, I have waited upon him and his officials with respect to this matter. Finally, I joined with the whole of my fellowrepresentatives of Western Australia in this Parliament in a deputation that waited on the Prime Minister, who promised to make certain inquiries, and has not yet been able to furnish us with a definite answer to our request. This is no laughing matter. Certain honorable members, who appear to be prepared now to treat it lightly, may find their own States affected sooner or later by the operation of the Navigation Act. The measure was passed by this’ Parliament with the object of bettering the conditions of seamen engaged in the coastal trade. That is an important consideration, but it is equally important that the progress of this great country of ours should not be seriously retarded by the operation of that law. Prior to the Act being proclaimed, at least two InterState steamers called every month at the port of Albany. Since then the port has been served by only one Inter-State steamer per month. The Minister knows the volume of trade that is done there. He has recently taken a record of the passengers who leave Albany by sea; but that is not a fair criterion. Many people cannot wait for the particular day of the month on which it has been decided by the authorities that a steamer shall call at Albany. Business will not wait, and the business people of the town have, therefore, to journey to the west in order to go east. They have to pay as much to reach Fremantle as it would cost them to travel direct from Adelaide to Albany if a steamer were available. The district affected is nearly as big as the whole State of Victoria, and, because of the reduced service, business people there have to take in a month’s stores at a time. Local merchants are thus unable to compete with the traders in the centralized portions of the State. I have heard it said that it is the policy of the Government to bring about decentraliza- tion, but the operation of the Navigation Act is having the opposite effect so far as the Albany district is concerned. This is a very serious matter, but I shall be satisfied if the Minister will give me an assurance that he will send one of his officials to Albany in order to obtain first-hand information. A trip to that beautiful district might serve as a Christmas holiday for one of the officers of the Department. Albany is certainly the finest watering place in Australia. If an officer were sent there to make inquiries from the Chamber of Commerce and the workmen of the district - the lumpers there cannot get enough work to keep the wolf from the door - the Minister would obtain information that would enable him to fully appreciate the real position, and I am sure that the Parliament, when that information was placed before it, would be prepared to relieve the people of Albany and the surrounding district of the inconvenience to which they are at present subjected by reason of the operation of the Act. With regard to the question of trading with Germany, I would say briefly-

The CHAIRMAN (Hon J M Chanter:

– That question is* not now before the Chair. The honorable member for Capricornia (Mr. Higgs) withdrew his amendment in order to allow of a general debate on the whole of the Estimates relating to the Department of Trade and Customs.

Mr Brennan:

– On a point of order, I submit that, although the amendment moved by the honorable member for Capricornia has been withdrawn, honorable members are entitled, in dealing with the Estimates of this Department, to discuss the question of trading with Germany. The chief business of the Department deals with the imposition and collection of duties and the volume of trade passing between this country and others, including Germany.

The CHAIRMAN (Hon J M Chanter:

– I have no recollection of saying that I would restrict debate in any way. I suggested to the honorable member for Capricornia (Mr. Higgs) that he should withdraw a specific amendment in order to allow a general debate to take place, and if I allowed a debate on that amendment to take place at this stage, I would not be keeping faith with the honorable member for Capricornia nor the Committee. ‘

Mr Watt:

– On the point of order. There is no other way of keeping faith with the Committee, Mr. Chairman, as the whole Department is opened up by permitting the honorable member for Capricornia to withdraw his amendment. Unless we can discuss the question of trading with Germany on the Estimates of the Trade and Customs Department, we cannot do it at any other time. I think it would be wise to allow the debate to cover the whole ground comprised in the Estimates for this Department.

The CHAIRMAN:

– If the Committee so desires, I shall not restrict honorable members; but in my opinion trading with , Germany is not a question for the Committee to deal with at this juncture.

Mr PROWSE:

– Practically every country is now trading with Germany, and by Australia refusing to do so we are stultifying our own interests. We are anxious to sell goods to Germany, and they are going to that country through various channels. I do not see why we should not obtain the advantage if ‘ we can see the possibility of securing cash in return. The Tariff barrier against German goods coming to Australia is sufficiently high” to prevent us buying many of their products. But I am quite prepared to assist trade relations being resumed with that country.

About twelve months- ago an embargo was placed upon the importation of calcium carbide, and I should like to know whether that period has elapsed and the embargo has been removed. In prewar days this commodity, which is absolutely essential for providing an illuminant for people in the back-blocks, . was sold at £10 or £14 per ton, but now the users of calcium carbide have to pay at the rate of £45 per ton in order to keep a small industry in Tasmania in operation. Prior to the embargo we imposed a duty of £7 10s. per ton, and if that is not sufficient to proQtect the local industry importations should be allowed.

I also ‘wish to appeal to the Minister for Trade and Customs (Mr. Greene) on behalf of the Forests Products Laboratory in Western Australia. ‘Local residents have taken such a keen interest in this work that they have subscribed considerable capital, and some very important discoveries have been made. As the result of investigations and extensive research, material eminently suitable for the manufacture of paper has been discovered. When the Premier of Western Australia, Sir James Mitchell, was in Melbourne a short time ago, he requested me to bring this matter under the notice, of the Minister and to ask if the Government would subsidize the work, or maintain the laboratory, to enable the investigations to be continued. There is ample room for further research, and I trust that some assistance will be given by the Government.

Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member for Swan (Mr. Prowse) and several other honorable members referred to the Forest Products Laboratory in Western Australia. Arrangements have been made for an amount to be made available from the vote for the Institute of .Science and Industry to enable the work at the laboratory in Western Australia to be continued. We are concentrating on this matter, and endeavouring to definitely ascertain whether it is possible to commercially produce newsprint from hardwood pulp. It has been demonstrated beyond the shadow of doubt that newsprint can be manufactured with 75 per cent, of hardwood pulp; but we do not know whether it can be ‘produced in commercial quantities. We propose carrying out extensive experiments ‘with the plant which has been imported. The tanning investigations have been restricted this year, but I am hoping that they will be continued extensively next year. The funds at present at our disposal are limited, and we are obliged to make this a mark-time year. For the same reason, we have not been able to take up the work of bringing the various States into line in connexion with research work, which the States are doing. Some branches of research work are being din der taken in practically all the States, but the expenditure incurred appears on their Estimates and not on ours. The States have refused to give up certain investigation, and we are not in the position to force them until we are able to fully equip the ‘Institute and secure the services of sufficient scientific men.

The honorable member for Kalgoorlie (Mr. Foley) referred to the inspection of jute goods, and suggested that we should follow the method adopted by American merchants whose goods are inspected in India and not at the port of entry. Americans get their jute goods in the flat, and have it woven at the mills and passed by their experts. ‘ Our work is not done in that way. Practically all our jute goods come from India made up, and we have found that inferior goods come from only one or two mills. I do not know what the special circumstances are to which the honorable member for Kalgoorlie referred, when the Customs Department refused to allow goods to be exported to New Zealand. I shall have the matter investigated, but in all probability the importers had offended on more than one occasion, and the Department refused to grant the request because the goods were not up to standard. Technically, they would be forfeited, and the Department probably decided to teach these gentlemen a lesson by compelling them to return them to India.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– Probably it was faulty sewing.

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– It may have been. We have not the facilities in India for opening the bales and inspecting the sacks and then re-baling and shipping them.

Mr Foley:

– Is it not a fact that the American inspector has a right to visit the factories and inspect the goods there?

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I think that is allowed in some instances.

The honorable member for Swan (Mr. Prowse) referred to the inconvenience experienced at Albany since the Navigation Act has been in operation. I understand that one of the officers from the Navigation Branch will be visiting Western Australia at an early date in connexion with taking over certain activities from the Navigation Department in that State, and I shall instruct him to visit Albany and make full investigation into the circumstances mentioned.

The honorable member for Dampier (Mr. Gregory) referred to the Commerce Act. No one is more alive than I am to the necessity of tightening up the regulations governing the export of our products. A number of regulations have been framed by the Department governing the export of products in their primary, semi-manufactured and manufactured state, and I trust that what we are doing will be the means of restoring the good name which Australia has secured for producing first-class goods. With respect to the proposal of the honorable member for Cowper (Dr. Earle Page) for the reduction of the Estimates by £25,000, 1 remind the honorable member that he has asked me, practically in the same breath, to consent to increased expenditure - certainly not to any considerable extent - but in three several directions at the same time. My great difficulty in framing the Estimates for the Department is to make both ends meet. ‘ While it is true that, on the permanent staff, there will be found a greater number of officials than last year, that is due entirely to transferring temporary employees in carrying out those most desirable provisions for the proper inspection and supervision of our primary products which are sent abroad. There have been, of course, certain extensions in regard to the Navigation Department, and some respecting lighthouses, but, outside of those new activities, I emphasize that there has been no extension of the staff of the Department whatever.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– Has there been no increase of the personnel of the collecting branches ?

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Practically none. In recent’ years there has been thrown upon the Customs Department a vast amount of new work. I may mention, for instance, the matter of the supervision of passports.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– Why not give up that work now?

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– It is not a question of our giving it up, seeing that practically all the nations require persons visiting their shores to be provided with passports. In my view, this provision will be a salutary precaution for some years to come, what with the threatened spread of Bolshevism, and like evils. This one responsibility has placed upon the officers of my Department an enormous additional burden of work.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– Does the charge which is made for passports cover the expense incurred?

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– It may do, so far as the issue of passports at this end is concerned. I say frankly that, if it were not for the self-sacrifice of the officers of the Department, it would be impossible to carry on operations with the present personnel.

Mr Hector Lamond:

– Then it is time some relief was afforded.

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– From every State ‘ Collector I have been receiving repeated urgent requests for additional staff. However, I have asked the officers, in view of the existing financial stringency, to do their best to cany on. Even since I have been in the Department the work has grown enormously. I have got my officers to compile certain figures regarding one item alone, in order to demonstrate the extent of this growth. In 1913 the original files which went through * the Central Administration Office of the Customs Department numbered 24,500. Last year the number was more than 65,000. A comparison of the figures will afford some idea of the enormous increase.

Mr Watt:

– What is the cause? Has it been due to a different method of administration which brings more into the head office?

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– No; it is entirely a matter of the growth of business, and of the addition of new activities. I may mention, as an example, -the subject of lighthouses. The supervision of that branch of Commonwealth responsibility . amounts, in itself, to a fairly large task. Then there are matters of navigation, of film censorship, science and industry, the Bureau of Commerce and Industry, the Board of Trade, and the whole of the Public Trustee work, which, alone, is an immense consideration. At present also we have all the clearance office work ; that has to do with enemy debts to and from Germany. All the files concerned with these varied activities pour through the one funnel at the ‘central office of the Department. Their heavy responsibilities are taxing officers night and day in order that the work may be kept pace with. The staff is loyally standing up to the strain, but I sometimes feel that I am asking too much. I assure the honorable member for Cowper that there is no room to make the “ cut “ which he desires, while at the same time leaving the Department in a position to carry on with reasonable efficiency. The only doubt which I have is that - doing all I can towards cutting expenditure down to the bone wherever possible - I may not be able to carry through the work of the Department with the amount set down in the Estimates.

Mr McWILLIAMS:
Franklin

– I desire to call the attention of the Minister (Mr. Greene) to regulations under the Commerce Act having to do with fruit-grading in colour.

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I am having the matter inquired into. There is proposed a regulation to provide that the fruit shall be of the proper colour for the particular variety.

Mr McWILLIAMS:

– In the different States colouring widely varies. Western Australian fruit is easily the brightest; but it is not nearly equal in flavour to that which is grown in the colder climates. This question of colouring is of importance, because if the colouring regulations are insisted upon some of the finest apples grown in Tasmania will be classed as inferior in grade.

I desire to point out one direction in which the Minister could effect a considerable saving in the application of the Navigation Act, and could do so without dispensing with the services of a single individual, but merely by instilling a little common-sense into the heads of those administering the Act. When the Navigation Act was being dealt with in this Legislature, the then Minister for Trade and Customs (Mr. Tudor), and the then Attorney-General, the present Prime Minister (Mr. Hughes), gave assurances that the river boats - the 10-ton “ wood-hookers “ and the like - would not be brought within the scope of the measure. Despite that, the present administration haled the people who run these river craft before a Court, and there was a subsequent appeal to the High Court. The private parties succeeded in their appeal, but they were put to considerable loss, while they were being fought with the aid of Commonwealth money.

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– The only action that was taken was a friendly one, instituted by arrangement, to determine exactly, by resort to the High Court, the limits of the Constitution in respect of the Navigation Act.

Mr McWILLIAMS:

– The Commonwealth, I am glad to say, had to pay the costs; hut the representatives of the river craft interests nevertheless suffered financially.

I was glad to hear the Minister for Trade and Customs say, in reply to remarks of the honorable member for Swan (Mr. Prowse), that he would give attention to a provision of the Act which is pressing heavily on certain classes of the community. There is a strong feeling in Tasmania that the State is not getting a fair deal, owing to the fact that ships which had been calling for years before the war are now prevented from taking Tasmania in their trips. To a very deserving class of the community the matter is serious. Last year these . people were unable to secure freight space for half the quantity of fruit which they had grown and desired to send to England. Tens of thousands of cases of some of the best apples grown in Australia were left to rot in the orchards. The mail boats, in addition to carrying a considerable number of tourists in the season, lifted a certain quantity of fruit and conveyed it to England in quick time. I do not ask the Minister to make a general application of the special provision for all time, but I would remind him that the Prime Minister has very properly said, “Those who say that shipping has reached normal conditions are talking nonsense.” Honorable members know that over-sea shipping has not returned to normal. Last year I saw many an orchardists income perishing on the ground, because there was no means of transporting the fruit to England. At that time the same class of fruit was selling in the Old Country at between 35s. and 30s. a case. All parts of Australia now contribute to the English mail contract. From Victoria, South Australia, and Western Australia, fruit-growers can ship their fruit in the mail boats; but these vessels are prevented from going to Tasmania. I am not pleading for that State because it is small in area; but it is suffering to a greater degree than any other State in the Union from the operation of the Navigation Act. Furthermore, whilst this season every other State has been blessed with plenteous rains, it is having one of the driest years experienced in its history, and it is a matter of vital importance, when the crops may not be nearly so good as they usually are, that every facility should be afforded t6 the fruit-growers to get their fruit away for at least this year. I appeal to the Minister to give them the use of the mail boats for this year. It would not interfere with the Inter-State shipping. The passengers who, during the touristseason, travel from Sydney to Hobart on mail boats will not travel by the smaller Inter-State steamers. I make a final appeal to the Minister to lift the embargo for this one year only, and then, perhaps during the coming year, we may get sufficient bottoms to take away our fruit. It is a serious matter to the people, who have no other means of support but the revenue they derive from the sale of their produce, to deprive them of the legitimate means of conveying it to market, and an injustice will be inflicted upon them, which I am sure this House, when it passed the Navigation Bill, never intended.

Mr JACKSON:
Bass

.In connexion with the amount of work said to be entailed upon the Customs staff, I would like to know from the Minister whether new officers have been appointed to supervise exports, or whether the existing staff will have this work tacked on to their other duties.

Mr BRENNAN:
Batman

– At a more convenient opportunity at a later hour of the morning, I hope to say a few words about the matter raised by the honorable member for Capricornia (Mr. Higgs), namely, the rescission of existing legislation forbidding trade with Germany. The observations I have to make on that subject will come more appropriately when the honorable member submits his amendment. In the meantime, I desire to say something on a mattor concerning which, some time ago, I addressed a series of questions to the Minister for Trade and Customs. In April of the present year, I asked the Minister -

Is there any form of censorship (other than the prohibition of obscene publications) subsisting with regard to the importation of books and other kinds of literature?
If so, who determines the suitability or otherwise of such books or other literature for admission to the Commonwealth?
Is the Minister, or are his departmental officers, assisted or advised by any person or persons outside the Public Service in determining such suitability or otherwise?

The Minister’s reply to those questions was -

Yes; in the form of a Proclamation dated 31st January, 1921.
The Minister, on a report made by a departmental officer detailed for the purpose.
Yes; in instances where such a course is deemed desirable.

On the 11th May, 1921, I asked the Minister -

Will he supply -

The titles of the books the importation of which into the Commonwealth has been prohibited during the last two years, and the names of the authors?

The names of the persons, other than members of the Public Service, who during that period have assisted or advised his Department in discriminating against certain publications?

He replied -

It is considered that to supply the names of the books would be to give undue publicity to their titles.
It is not considered desirable to furnish the information sought.

Question - That the vote he reduced by £25,000 (Dr. Earle Page’s amendment) - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 13

NOES: 28

Majority . . . 15

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Mr HIGGS:
Capricornia

– I move -

That the proposed vote he reduced by the sum of £1.

I submit this as an intimation to the Government that, in the opinion of this Committee, the restrictions on trade and commerce between the Commonwealth and Germany and Austria should be removed forthwith. In addition to the reasons which I gave to honorable members earlier in the evening, when there seemed to be a desire to go home, I may say that we are now having trade relations with nations which are regarded by some of our public men as dangerous. We are also trading very freely with the United States of America, where, I remind honor able members, there are fully 13,000,000 foreigners, mostly Germans. The total population of the United States of America, according to the census of 1911 - I have not the more recent figures - was 91,972,266.The white population was 81,000,000; the native-born population, 78,000,000; and the foreign-born population, 13,515,000. As I have said, of these 13,515,000, many millions are Germans; and we are trading freely in German goods manufactured in the United States of America. But more striking figures still are those concerning the trade which has been going on between the United Kingdom and Germany ever since the signing of the Armistice in 1918. As it would appear that honorable members do not desire to go home before 8 o’clock in the morning, I see no reason why I should not occupy the time of the Committee in discussing the extremely important question of the removal of the restrictions on trade with the countries I have mentioned. I have received through the courtesy of the Commonwealth Statistician the following list of exports of United Kingdom produce to Germany during the first eight months of the years 1913, 1920, and 1921:- .

The CHAIRMAN (Hon J M Chanter:

– I should like to know how the honorable member intends to apply these figures.

Mr HIGGS:

– There are certain regulations issued by the Minister for Trade and Customs imposing restrictions on trade from the Commonwealth to Germany and Austria. I want to show that we are the only people in the world who decline to trade with those countries. I am giving figures of the exports of the United Kingdom produce to Germany in the three years to which I have referred.

The CHAIRMAN:

– I point out to the honorable member that we have no control over the exports of the United Kingdom to Germany. He will be in order only in making a passing allusion to, and not in quoting, detailed figures of articles of export from the United Kingdom which are under Commonwealth control.

Mr HIGGS:

– May I point out that included in these exports from the United Kingdom to Germany, there are millions of pounds’ worth of Australian produce, and my argument is that exports of Australian produce at present going to Germany and Austria, via London, should go direct. Let me say that in addition to the exports to which I have referred machines - prime mowers, textiles, machinery, cotton yarns and manufactures, woollen and worsted manufactures, wool tops, worsted yarns, alpaca yarns, woollen tissues, worsted carpets, silk manufactures, other textiles, flax and hemp yarns, linen piece goods, jute goods, boots and shoes, ammonium sulphate, leather, and stationery were also exported to Germany from the United Kingdom, and the total value of all these exports amounted in 1913, to £17,371,296; in 1920, to £9,115,249; and in 1921, to £7,239,362.

Mr Watt:

– I rise to say that as the honorable member for Capricornia (Mr. Higgs) seems determined to defy the ruling of the Chair, and will not consult the convenience of the Committee,’ I move -

That the question be now put.

Motion negatived.

Mr HIGGS:

– My contention is, that Australian produce which is now exported from London to Germany and Austria, should go direct to those countries. I find that during the first eight months of the year to which I have already referred, exports of colonial produce from the United Kingdom to Germany ‘amounted in value to £6,184,048 in 1913; £5,724,982 in 1920, and to £6,868,614 in 1921. The value of all the exports to which I have referred amounted in 1913 to £23,555,344; in 1920, to £14,839,231; and in 1921 to £14,107,976.

In my opinion we ought not to seek revenge on Germany and Austria. “Vengeance is mine” saith the Lord. “I will repay.” And woe betide the nations that will not recognise that. I have a feeling that there are members of the Committee who are willing to continue restrictions on trade with Germany, and I wish to give’ the public of Australia my reasons for believing that those restrictions should be removed. Men in Australia who cherish feelings of hatred against the German and Austrian people should not forget how much German blood there is in the British race. When the Roman Legions departed from the British Isles their place was taken by a new race, Jutes, Angles, and Saxons, mostly of Teutonic and not of Celtic origin. The very name of England is of German origin. We have 30,000 or 40,000 Germans in Australia, many of whom came to this country at our invitation and whose sons fought for Australia during the war. It is not necessary that I should mention the names of several of our brave Generals and other officers who were of German descent. I am advancing reasons now for the renewal of trade restrictions against Germany, and -if the Minister for Trade and Customs will, even by way of interjection, say that he is prepared to remove those restrictions, I shall not delay the Committee any longer.

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– As soon as the honorable gentleman resumes his seat I shall be prepared to make a statement.

Mr HIGGS:

– Another reason why I am in favour of resuming trade with Germany is that we cannot predict the future. We were at war with Germany for four years, from 1914 to 1918, and we fought side by side with France. Many times during the history of the Empire we have fought against France. In 1854 England fought with Russia on behalf of the Turks. In 1914 Russia was in alliance with England and France against the Turks. In 1899 England went to war with the Boer Republics. Peace with them w.as signed in 1902, and since tha t times the South African Union has been formed, and is now one ‘of the Dominions of the Empire. If the League of Nations should, unhappily, fail, and war ensue, we shall be glad to have Germany and Austria on our side. The Prime Minister when asked questions in this House regarding restrictions of trade with Germany, invited honorable members to express their opinions on the resumption of trade with that country.

Mr Charlton:

– The Prime Minister haw a notice of motion on the business paper for next week to deal with that matter himself.

Mr HIGGS:

– I shall not continue any further. I believe that a majority of honorable members is in favour of the removal of these restrictions. The Prime Minister has asked for their opinion on the matter, and I sincerely hope that it will be given. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Charlton), the Leader of the Country party (Dr. Earle Page) the honorable member for Wakefield (Mr. Richard Foster), the honorable member for Barker (Mr. Livingston), have all told me privately that they are in favour of the removal of restrictions upon trade with Germany. I hope that honorable members will record a vote in favour of my motion as an intimation to the Government that these restrictions should be removed.

Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– !As the honorable member for Capricornia (Mr. Higgs) has stated, the Prime Minister has, on several occasions, stated that he would be glad to hear from honorable members an expression of opinion as to the re-opening of trading relations with Germany. From all quarters of the Committee to-night the view has been expressed that we should renew trading with Germany, and we have not heard any protest against that course.

Mr Francis:

– I desire to protest emphatically against it, and also against the method adopted by the honorable member for Capricornia in bringing this matter before the House.

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Probably the honorable member is objecting on the ground that, owing to the peculiar economic position of Germany, the re-opening of trading relations with her will lead to serious competition with the products of -our own industries. Honorable members are aware that the Government propose to introduce a Rill to deal particularly with that aspect of the question. We feel that if would not be right to renew trading with Germany until that Bill has received the assent of this House. Of course honorable members know that ‘for quite a long time there has been no restriction upon our export of goods to Germany; the only restriction is upon importations from Germany.

Mr Bowden:

– We want the Antidumping Bill introduced first.

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– That is what I am saying, and when that has been passed the Government will be prepared to issue a proclamation repealing the existing proclamation which prohibits the importation of goods from Germany. What is in> our minds is not to make the proclamation immediately operative, but to allow a reasonable time to lapse between its issue and its operation.. We fear that a sudden influx of German goods, particularly of some lines, might upset the trading position of a large number of people. ‘That is undesirable, but if rea-‘ sonable notice of the lifting of the restriction is given, I do not think anybody will have ground for complaint. In the circumstances I suggest that the honorable member for Capricornia, having accomplished his purpose, should not press his amendment to a division.

Mr BRENNAN:
Batman

– I would not like an important motion of this bind to be disposed of without offering a very few observations upon it. I listened with intense interest, although under great difficulties, to the honorable member for Capricornia (Mr. Higgs), and the little I heard of his remarks filled me with a very strong longing to hear the remainder. I gathered from the speech of the honorable member that there can be no inconsiderable “number of persons of German birth or origin in the electorate of Capricornia, and it occurred to me that the honorable member foresees that it will be necessary to cure, at an early date, the evil effects of his association with the Prime Minister (Mr. Hughes).

The CHAIRMAN:

– -Order ! I think that that remark is entirely uncalled for.

Mr BRENNAN:

– Do you, sir, wish me to withdraw it?

The CHAIRMAN:

– Yes.

Mr BRENNAN:

– That being so I withdraw it unreservedly, although I am happy to notice that the honorable mem- ber for Capricornia took no exception to g it. We are addressing ourselves to this matter entirely in a political sense, and not in any way in a personal sense. I remember during the course of the world war, and particularly in the early months of that disastrous struggle, a number of fanatical jingoes, giving expression to sentiments of unbridled hatred toward the people with whom a policy of secret statecraft had embroiled us in war.

The CHAIRMAN:

– Order! I ask the honorable member not to proceed in that strain. Such remarks will not he productive of any good.

Mr BRENNAN:

Mr HIGGS:

– It might appear a symbolical reference to you, Mr. Chairman, but to me, and I am sure to the Prime

Minister, it would be offensive. The Prime Minister has openly asked in this House for expressions of opinion. I am astonished that members have not given expression to their views earlier. I am surprised that you, Mr. Chairman, have not taken an opportunity of expressing an opinion. In view of the promise made by the Minister for Trade and Customs, I would like to be allowed to withdraw the amendment.

Mr Brennan:

– I object to the withdrawal of the amendment.

Mr FRANCIS:
Henty

.I hope the amendment will not be carried. My remarks will be few at this juncture, as I am hoping for an opportunity at the proper time to discuss this important question. There is no more important question to Australia than this, and it should at least be placed upon the business sheet and submitted to the House by the Prime Minister on behalf of the Government, and a statement made so that honorable members, in casting their votes, may possess the very latest information from all parts of the world. “Without doubt the question of currency will affect the opening up of trade relations with Germany. I am quite confident that the Prime Minister is able to enlighten me, at any rate, upon this matter, so that I may be able to cast an intelligent vote. At present I shall vote against the amendment. The Government will be placed in a very awkward position if the amendment is carried. I am surprised at any member objecting to the postponement of this important, and all important, question at 4 o’clock in the morning, so that it may receive at the proper time more adequate and proper consideration. I have reason to protest, first, against the method adopted in bringing the question before the Committee, and, secondly, against the opening up of trade relations with Germany. I will not agree to re-opening trade with Germany until such time as I can be supplied with information which will convince me that it will be in the interests of Australia. What does it matter to me whether we are out of step with other nations or not? I am responsible to my constituents for the vote I cast, and I am not going to open up relations with Germany under any conditions, unless we find that it is absolutely essen tial in the interests of the Commonwealth, and will be to the advantage of the Australian people. I hope that the amendment will not be carried, and that the Government will in due time submit proposals for the consideration of honorable members.

Amendment negatived.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Department of Works and Railways.

Proposed vote, £810,911, agreed to.

Postmaster-General’s Department.

Proposed vote, £7,455,533.

Mr ATKINSON:
Wilmot

– I want to make a last appeal to the Postmaster-General (Mr. Wise) on the matter of country telephones. If the Postmaster-General has not funds sufficient to provide these facilities, and if there are means of borrowing money for the work, I hope the Government will not be backward in the matter. I am sure the Committee will be prepared to provide reasonable funds for the necessary extension of the telephone system in the country. I and other honorable members have stressed the necessity of this for many years, and I know the Postmaster-General is well aware of the urgency of it. If money can be borrowed, I would like him to allocate sums at his disposal so that this particular branch of his service may receive more attention than it is intended to give it at present. A great many lines have been approved of, the deposits that have been asked for have been paid, and everything has, apparently, been in order when, at the last moment, word has come that the work will not be proceeded with this year for lack of funds. This is often a serious matter to persons who have been waiting month after month for connexions. I think that if the PostmasterGeneral will study his Estimates closely, he will find that by the reallocation of the moneys set down under the various heads he will be able to get some of these lines constructed. Certainly, I hope that he will consider my suggestion that this should be done.

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I do not wish to traverse ground which I went over here a week or two ago, when I spoke upon the subject which has just been touched upon by the honorable member forWilmot (Mr. Atkinson). I should like to know from the Postmaster-General whether there is any chance of his getting the £1,000,000 that he told us he intendedto ask for, in order to proceed with telephone construction, which is now held up.

Mr Wise:

– I have had no reply yet. There is no Treasurer.

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– It is unfortunate that members should be asked to deal with questions of finance at a time when there is no Treasurer, because it prevents us from knowing the real position. I take it that the Postmaster- General intends to press for the £1,000,000 that he has spoken of?

Mr Wise:

– I am pressing for that and more. That money is for Works and Buildings.

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– Much more than £1,000,000 will be needed to catch up with the arrears of works. However, I leave now the subject of telephones and mail services, because it has been discussed so often that it should not be necessary to refer to’ it again. I come to another matter, the inadequate pay of many of the officers of the PostmasterGeneral’s Department. From time to time I have had letters on this subject from postmasters in my electorate, and I intend to make a comparison between the salaries of Commonwealth Postal officials and those of State officials, in many cases doing similar work. In no branch of the Public Service are the salaries so paltry as in the PostmasterGeneral’s Department. The post-offices of the Commonwealth are divided into seven grades, the Newcastle office for example being in the No. 1 Grade. Honorable members may be surprised to learn that a postmaster in charge of a Grade 1 office who has to control 140 officers, and through whose hands passes between £90,000 and £100,000 a year, gets only £500 a year. A person in private employment controlling an equally large staff, and with similar monetary responsibilities, would be paid from £1,500 to £2,000 a year. A sixth-grade postmaster in my electorate, a man of fortynine years of age, with thirty-two years’ service-

Mr Jowett:

– And how many children ?

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– Nine.

Mr Jowett:

– He is the sort of man we want in this country.

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– He has given ample evidence that he is a good and useful servant of the Commonwealth, yet he is paid only £264 a year, less £26 deducted for rent. That man is over a staff of six others’, and controls an office which has a telephone exchange with 100 subscribers. A school teacher in the same town who has only eighteen years’ service, little more than half that of the postmaster, and with only two juniors under him, gets £500 a year. When permanent divisional returning officers were appointed by the Commonwealth, a man left the Department of Public Instruction in New South Wales to join the Commonwealth Service. At one time it was the ambition of many of those in the service of the States to get into the Commonwealth Service, but thisman, after six years’ service in the Commonwealth, is now getting only £220 a year, while those who were his fellow employees in the State Service are getting £400 a year. That is a disgrace to the Commonwealth. Let me now compare the pay of the railway telegraph officers of the State of New South Wales with that of the Commonwealth telegraph officers under the Postmaster-General. One railway telegraph operator with only ten years’ service gets £315 per annum, and a Commonwealth postal officer in a town only a few miles away gets £280 per annum. An officer with thirty-six years’ experience who is in the Commonwealth telegraph service receives £212 per annum; and a State railway telegraph operator gets £255 per annum. In another case in which the length of the services of two officers are the same, namely, six years, the man on the railway staff is paid by the State £255 a year, and the man on the Commonwealth staff gets only £126 a year. I do not suggest that the pay of the State railway telegraph officers is too high, or even high enough, but the telegraph officers in the employment of the Postmaster-General are in a much less enviable position. But the permanent employees of the Postmaster-General’s Department, bad as their lot is, are better off than those connected with allowance and semi-official offices. I know of women in such offices in the back . parts of New South. Wales who are employed under conditions which should not be tolerated in a big service like that of the Postmaster* General. It is said that not a great deal of business is transacted in these allowance offices, which are usually given to those who have some other business upon which they depend. Semi-official offices are in much the same position. Those in charge of them are expected to have other sources of income, and must be prepared for long hours of business. Indeed, very often they have little time for anything else. If there is one thing that ought to be remedied, it is the condition in which those who are in charge of allowance and semi-official offices are placed. The cases I have quoted disclose a state of affairs that should not be tolerated. I have a copy of an award for bank officials in New South Wales, “made a few days ago by Judge Rolin. Bank officers, as clerical workers, are always regarded as being low down in the scale of remuneration, but by comparison with the pay of some of our postal officials, New South Wales bank officers are in clover. I find, according to this award, that a bank official with ten years’ service will get £285 per annum. This, it is true, is a paltry wage, but compared with that paid to the postmaster with 32 years’ service, whose case I quoted a few moments ago, it appears to be quite respectable. If the Postmaster-General gets this £1,000,000 or £2,000,000 of which he speaks, I hope that some improvement will be made in the pay of postmasters and our allowance and semi-allowance post-offices. The post-office should not necessarily show a* surplus upon its operations.

Mr Stewart:

– But it does.

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– During the regime of the late Postmaster-General (Mr. Webster), there was in one year a surplus of about £600,000, which was paid into the Consolidated^ Revenue. The work of our Post Office has an important effect upon the development of out-back country. Improved postal facilities will help to keep people out of our cities, and, perhaps, gO far to cure the curse of centralization. If the Postmaster-General could get £6,000,000, and made a proposal for its expenditure upon improved postal, tele phonic, and telegraphic communications, he would have the hearty support of a majority of the members of this Parliament, and of the general community also.

Mr BELL:
Tasmania

.Although the hour is late, I cannot allow the occasion to pass without adding a few words to what has already been said about the necessity of urging the PostmasterGeneral (Mr. Wise) to bring pressure upon his colleagues in the Cabinet to find the money which he himself believes to be absolutely necessary to place his Department on a satisfactory footing. This is the desire of all honorable members, and of the people- generally. I am surprised that the Government, of which I am a supporter, should so long have neglected to find the means to advance this very important work. They have been able to obtain money for expenditure for many other governmental activities concerning which protests have been made by members from both sides of the House during the debate on these Estimates. No protest whatever is made concerning expenditure for the improvement of telegraphic, telephonic, and postal facilities. The PostmasterGeneral, and also the Prime Minister (Mr. Hughes), know quite well that no honorable member would record a vote against any proposal for increased expenditure in the Postal Department. Therefore I am surprised that the Government have not already taken such action as may be necessary to borrow the money which, the Postmaster-General says is essential to carry out necessary works, not only in the country districts - although I name them first, because their need is greatest - ‘but in all parts of the Commonwealth. It is the one Department that can do a very great deal to improve the lot of those engaged in developing the outback districts of the Commonwealth. Other Departments of the Public Service are not so favorably placed in this respect. It is admitted that improved means of communication and transport are essential if we are going to settle the remote portions of the Commonwealth with a contented rural population. In my own electorate many applications have been lodged for telephones and similar facilities, and approval has been given by the Department for the construction of these lines. I have informed my electors that the wish of the Government always has been to provide these necessary facilities in order to encourage land settlement. I have boasted on many occasions that this is their avowed policy, but recently I have been extremely disappointed at the receipt of copies of letters from the Deputy Postmaster-General, in Hobart, to applicants for telephones, intimating that the work could not be proceeded with, because funds were not available. The Treasurer last year assured the House that money would be provided, and I contend it is the duty of the Government to do so. The money could be borrowed without any difficulty. There would be no- protest from any honorable member or section of the people if a loan were placed on the market next week for £7,500,000, which the Postmaster-General tells us is required. The Departmental revenue would be sufficient to meet interest charges and provide for a sinking fund for the redemption of the loan. Therefore, the Government should not hesitate. It is absurd to say that all these works should be paid for out of revenue. The revenue of the Department could not stand the strain, and it is not fair that those who have already telephonic and postal facilities should be asked to contribute perhaps by way of increased charges, to the funds necessary to extend these conveniences to others who are not in such a fortunate position. There would be no objection to the application of surplus revenue from existing charges to provide for interest and a sinking fund on a loan for the purpose of extending these facilities and bringing the departmental services up to date. There is no question as to the Committee being in deadly earnest about this matter, and I am sure that the PostmasterGeneral is alive to the necessity of the situation. I hope he will take an early opportunity to bring under the notice of the head of the Government the strong terms in which honorable members have expressed themselves on this subject. If that be done, I am perfectly certain that the Prime Minister and, in fact, the whole Cabinet will realize the necessity for what we are asking, and that the requisite provision will be made at an early date. Regarding the administration of the De- partment, I have no complaint to make. The Postmaster-General (Mr. Wise) is hard-working, courteous at all times, very much in earnest, and much concerned with regard to the efficiency of his Department. I have only to say, in conclusion, that I hope that at an early date the necessary funds will be provided to afford him an opportunity to put his Department on such a footing that “he will be able to give absolute satisfaction to the whole community.

Mr STEWART:
Wimmera

– I have no desire at this early hour to speak at length. I regret the circumstances under which we are conducting this debate, but I want to support the remarks made by the honorable member for Darwin (Mr. Bell), and the suggestion that a loan should be floated in order that the Department may catch up with its arrears of work in respect of the extension of telephonic facilities and the erection of post-office buildings. It is a curious position with which we are confronted. The pioneers out-back want these facilities. The general public would readily support any proposal to grant them ; the majority of the honorable members of this Parliament say that they should be granted; and yet nothing is done by the Government.

Mr Francis:

– Why do the Government not take action?

Mr STEWART:

– Not being a member of the Government I cannot say, but something ought to be done. We are talking about a big immigration scheme and the necessity for developing the great waste spaces of this Continent. But if we are going to deny to the people who go out-back the ordinary facilities which should be freely granted to them, then I see no prospect of successful immigrant settlement or of any general development of the interior of Australia. In my electorate, in northern Victoria, there has been a fair amount of soldier settlement. I have referred to this matter before, and make no apology for again alluding to it. These soldiers have been settled in dense Mallee scrub. There we have whole communities of them. They have no tele- graphic communication with the outside world, and I cannot get any for them. In reply to my representations from time to time I merely receive stereotyped departmental excuses. They are sent to me, and I have, in tam, to send them on to these people. “What the settlers want is not departmental excuses, hut telephones and postal facilities. If they do not get them, some of them will leave, and I would not blame them for doings so. The Postal Department should not be used as a taxing machine. I understand that of recent years a profit has been made by the Department, and it seems to me that the proposal to float a loan to enable it to overtake its arrears of work is a sound proposition that should be favorably considered by the Government. Whatever may be the ways and means adopted, I insist that something must be done for the people out-back. It is time that representatives of rural districts in this House, irrespective of party, combined and organized to try to force the Government to do something for these people. It is not fair to induce people to go into the out-back and then leave them stranded as we are doing to-day.

Mr Francis:

– The honorable member shall have my support in endeavouring to obtain postal and telephonic facilities for them. “Mr. STEWART. - Every honorable member is in favour of these facilities being granted, and yet nothing is done.

Mr Jackson:

– The Government have net the necessary funds, but they are proposing to raise the money.

Mr STEWART:

– It is to be hoped that the honorable member and other staunch supporters of the Government will bring pressure to bear on them and insist upon these much-needed facilities being conceded. I could speak at greater length in this strain, but I shall not do so. I have been agitating, and I intend to do a great deal more - I am going to keep on agitating until I get something done for these people.

Let me refer now to the Mildura Post Office, the facts relating to which have already been put before the PostmasterGeneral (Mr. Wise). There we have a post-office which is hopelessly overtaxed. The employees are herded in a small building where they have to cope with a tremendous volume of business. It is an absolute scandal that, in a district of high temperatures, so many employees should be crowded into this small building. A new- .up-to-date building is urgently needed there. Then, there is the case of’ Red Cliffs. There we have a. population of 2,000, and the postal business is carried on in what I can only describe as a shed. I have not so much criticism to offer. with regard to the lack of postal facilities at Red Cliffs, because it is a comparatively new settlement. It gives every promise, however, of being a large town, one that will equal Mildura, and possibly have a still greater population, and I ask the PostmasterGeneral to have erected there a substantial post-office to cope with the large volume of work that undoubtedly will have to be dealt with within a very short period. I again urge the Government to try to do something for the pioneers of not only northern Victoria, but every other State. I gather from conversations with honorable members that the position is the same in every State. From one end of Australia to the other we have the same lamentable story. .We urge people to go into the back country, and there we leave them in the silence of the bush, devoid of any communication with the outside world.

Mr McGRATH:
Ballarat

– I join with other honorable members who have urged -that the Government should borrow something like £7,000,000 to provide for the extension of telephonic and mail services. As the representative of a district that is fairly well provided for, I have not many complaints to make regarding local wants; but I realize that if we are going to develop Australia we must extend our postal and telephonic services. No greater incentive could be offered to people to go out-back. I know of deaths that have occurred in remote settlements because of the lack of a ready means of communication with centres from which medical assistance could be obtained. Many people hesitate to go into the far interior because they know that years are likely to elapse before they will be linked up with the outside world. There is a general feeling that our postal and’ telephone facilities should be extended, and I am convinced that the country would unanimously support the Government in arranging a loan for this special purpose.

There are two or three other matters to -which I must refer. First of all, I unite with the honorable member for Hume (Mr. Parker Moloney^ in asking the Postmaster-General (Mr. Wise) to take a little interest in the salaries to which he has referred. I shall not weary the

Committee with, examples, although I could give quite a number. Many postal officials in New South “Wales have also to conduct Savings Bank business for the Commonwealth Bank, but for this they receive no additional remuneration. On the other hand, the State Savings Bank business in many small townships is conducted, by the local policeman, who receives from the State an allowance of £30 per annum and, in addition, 2s. for every £100 deposited with his branch. His additional remuneration, therefore, amounts in some cases to perhaps £50 a year. It is very unfair that our postal officials should receive no additional payment for the extra work devolving upon them in connexion with the Commonwealth Savings Bank. I hope that the Postmaster-General will remedy this grievance.

I wish also to mention the contract offices. At the outset I would congratulate the Postmaster-General on having considerably improved the position of those in charge of such offices. In that respect I think he is the best PostmasterGeneral we have had for. many years. Those who are in charge of semi-official contract offices want to know in what position they stand. Are they regarded by the Department as temporary or permanent officers? Many of them have been in charge of such offices from ten to twenty years. Every permanent employee in the Department is granted annual leave, and even temporary employees after twelve months’ service are entitled to leave; but men who have been in charge of semi-official and contract offices for twenty years cannot obtain leave except at their own expense. Under an award of the Court temporary employees, after twelve months’ service, are entitled to eighteen days’ leave per annum. It seems to me that persons in charge of semi-official and contract offices should enjoy the same privilege. They feel that they are entitled to annual leave, and it would not cost the Department much to grant that concession. I hope that the Postmaster-General will do so.

Clause 27 of the Letter Carriers Award provides that any temporary officer working continuously for twelve months shall be entitled to eighteen days’ leave ofabsence, exclusive of Sundays and holidays. The wording of the award could not be plainer, but certain departmental officials seem to be constantly seeking for means to defeat it. The award provides that after twelve months’ continuous service these temporary officials are to have eighteen days’ leave; hut case after case has been brought under my notice where they have been dismissed after serving twelve months, and the answer of the Deputy Postmaster-General is that’ their, services , are dispensed with because the Department cannot see two months’ continuous work ahead for them after their eighteen days’ leave has expired. It seems to me to be one- way of defeating the award, and now that attention has been drawn to the matter .1 trust the Minister will see that it is given prompt attention. In Ballarat the letter-carriers have also received an award, and the Judge who heard the case, in delivering his award, said that the men claimed to be entitled to the £15 per annum awarded by Mr. Justice Powers, and later the same award was made by Mr. Justice Starke. The award stated that £15 per year was to be paid to letter-carriers ‘ and assistants doing sorters’ work in the mail branch. The heads of the Department say that the mail branch applies only to capital cities, and on account of this interpretation the assistants of Ballarat are deprived of what they contend is their right. ‘ These men are working side by side with the sorters of Ballarat, and doing exactly the same work, and taking the same responsibilities. The salary of a sorter is £210 per annum, and that of an assistant £168. They are not only getting £42 less salary than the award, nut are denied the bonus of £15. “When the award was made that the sorters should receive a fixed salary with a bonus of £15 per annum it was clearly understood what was meant; but the Department, to deprive the men of the bonus, did’ not appoint any sorters, but classified them as assistant sorters. They are doing the work of sorters, and work with other sorters. The Department is taking an undue advantage by calling them assistant sorters, and paying them £42’ per year less, and depriving them of a bonus of £15 per annum, which the award provides. That is a mean and miserable spirit % to display towards employees. We stand by arbitration and conciliation, but when men go to the Arbitration Court and receive an award it is upset on a technical point. In this case the Department claims that the award applies only to capital cities; but the work of sorting is just as important in a city such as Ballarat as it is in Melbourne. Th sorters have to know the destination of every communication, their memory has to be good, and they have to pass an examination before they can act as assistant sorters. Some of the sorters have to memorize at least 5,000 addresses, and to perform their duties in an expeditious and intelligent manner. It is a most “unfair way in which to treat men who render honest service, and the PostmasterGeneral, through his officials, should see that more just treatment is meted out to them. I trust that inquiries will be made, not through the heads of Departments, but through postmasters who know the work. If that is done the men will be quite satisfied, because they are sure that it cannot be said that their work is not the same as that of a sorter. If it can be proved to the contrary after exhaustive inquiries they will accept the decision.

I desire also to refer to the case of a man named Gardiner, who was sent to Beaufort as a postal assistant. He is a married man with a wife and family, and, as it is impossible for him to secure a house he has to board at an hotel, and his wife and family have to live in Melbourne. He is compelled to maintain two homes on a salary of about £3 per week, and his position is so acute that he is actually borrowing money to meet his current liabilities. I have appealed to the Minister on frequent occasions to send a single man to Beaufort, and allow Gardiner to be transferred to a town where house accommodation is available. This matter has been before the Department for at least six months, and numerous promises have been made. It was said that this officer refused to transfer to Bendigo, but the only communication he received in connexion with the matter was over the telephone.

Mr JACKSON:
Bass

.- In Launceston the postal officials are endeavouring to carry out their business in the same room in which the Customs work is handled. The room is open to the public, and when the Customs official leaves the premises, he cannot place any parcels under lock and key, and if they should be lost the responsibility will rest upon the Postal Department. I brought this matter under the notice of the De partment of Trade and Customs and the Postal and Telegraph Department seven or eight months ago, and received an assurance that an alteration would be made, but nothing has been done.

Mr FLEMING:
Robertson

– lt hardly seems necessary to bring, under the .notice of the PostmasterGeneral (Mr. Wise) the totally inadequate salaries paid to the officers in his Department. The work of the Department needs re-organizing from beginning to end, because we cannot expect men to assist in. conducting an enormous business on paltry salaries such as the Department is paying, particularly in country districts. Many of these officers have to put up with a great deal of inconvenience, and in some cases hardship, “and it is time practical consideration was shown them..

The lack of telegraphic and telephonic facilities in country districts is agitating the minds of many people. In one small district in the electorate which I represent there is a keen demand for telephones, and when I applied a little while ago for an instrument on behalf of a resident in the locality I was informed that there were 149 applications prior to mine. We are informed every time we submit such complaints that the shortage of material is the cause of delay, but it is useless accusing the present PostmasterGeneral on that account. There has, however, been a lamentable lack of foresight, and we should have reached the stage when a more satisfactory service could be rendered. Immediate arrangements should be made for providing some of the material obtained locally. Large numbers of telegraph and telephone posts will be required, and if the Minister has any idea when the wire and insulators will be available his Department should get to work to obtain what posts can be secured here, so that further delay will not be experienced when shipments from overseas arrive. The posts, of course, should not be obtained too far in advance, but the position could be carefully watched.

Despite the promises made, returned soldiers are not getting fair treatment in the Post and Telegraph and other Departments. I receive complaints in this regard from all parts of the Commonwealth. I do not blame the PostmasterGeneral personally, because I know that he is interested in returned men, and is anxious to do his duty. They are, however, not receiving fair treatment. To qualify for appointment in the telephone workshops in Melbourne, certain returned soldiers passed an examination (No. 535), which was held on December, 1914-February, 1915. The first twelve successful candidates, five of whom were returned soldiers, received appointments prior to the date on which the Act giving preference was passed by Parliament. As the number of candidates to be registered was fifty, it is reasonable to assume, considering twelve candidates were appointed in four months, that their appointments would not have been delayed to any extent if the measure had not been made law. They have been placed in a very serious position, and they have assured me that while they were on active service they lost four years; but they have now lost two years in addition. The Act is not only being used to keep them in their ordinary positions, but is being employed to their actual detriment. One would expect that the fact of a man having gone to the war should be sufficient in itself to accord him the preference which Parliament has decided he should have. The successful returned soldiers of whom I have been speaking - five in number - received their appointments, but only as from 18th July of this year, and at the minimum salary. In the meantime, appointments have been made of junior and cadet mechanics with no war service, despite the advice of the Prime Minister that promotions were to be suspended. Many now receive the maximum salary. These men say -

We ask that our appointments ‘be dated back prior to the date when the next examination was ‘held for junior mechanics to qualify for the position of mechanic. Appointments have in some cases been dated back, as the last examination of Naval Staff clerks was held in April, 1918, and all soldier or sailor candidates were appointed as from 1st January, 1918.

Evidently, in some other Departments these men are getting the preference which was deliberately provided for them ; but in the Postmaster-General’s Department, not only have they failed to receive that benefit, but they are actually losing a greater percentage of time than is represented by the years in which they were away on active service.

I again suggest that something should be done in the direction of preparing for that mass of material which must sooner or later come to hand, so that, from the moment of its arrival it may be put to use. When our men went to the war, Parliament considered that full provision had been made that, at least, they should not lose anything by joining the Australian Imperial Force. Here, however, is afforded definite proof of returned soldiers being penalized as an outcome of the loyal service which they gave to their country.

Mr BOWDEN:
Nepean

.Notwithstanding all the money which has been voted for the use of the Postmaster-General’s Department, there is not sufficient to clean up arrears. If the whole of it were spent there would still remain a tremendous amount of urgent work to be put in hand. There would still be, for example, 4,000 to 5,000 metropolitan telephone connexions in respect of which applications are in hand, beside numerous country telephonic applications, none of which can be dealt with. There are many paying trunk line proposals in regard to which investigations have been made, and authorizations issued. The work, how- , ever, cannot be put in hand because supplies are not available; and supplies are not available because the Department has had to go without reasonable monetary assistance. There are still other services, which have been approved of after departmental inquiry. But all must stand over,’ at ‘any rate, until next year. On top of the present arrears there will be accumulated applications covering another twelve months. This congestion in a great Department has become so serious that unless the trouble is dealt with in a business-like manner, and without further delay, the confusion must become far worse confounded. We must grapple with the situation. A wise and practical suggestion has been offered; indeed it is the only business-like proposition. A special loan must be raised for the PostmasterGeneral’s services. It is most unfair that business men urgently requiring telephone facilities should be compelled to wait for months or years before their requirements can be satisfied. Such a state of affairs would not be tolerated for a moment in a privately-conducted enterprise.

There are still other matters worthy of urgent attention. For example, there is that of the purchase of sites in various parts of the country. Although the work. thereon is crying out for attention, the proposals have had to be put on one side because no money has been voted which can be applied to such purposes. During the war the public were ready to accept certain inconveniences, but the time has come when some solution must be found for these ever-growing problems. They are not merely those of one State or city, but of the whole of Australia. Everywhere there is chaos or a condition bordering upon it. I know of several postal sites in my electorate where something ought to be done without delay. Blocks of land which could have been purchased last year for one-third of the value placed on them this year will cost still more before the Postmaster-General’s Department will have taken them over. We are paying hundreds per cent, for the delay occasioned in such directions as these.

I wish to. refer to the matter of the partial decentralization of work from the main metropolitan head-quarters, and the extended powers given to district inspectors. This alteration represents a move in the right direction; but the inspectors should have been given increased status and some additional remuneration. The responsibilities which they are required to incur in the discharge of their duties are much greater than before, their work has been very considerably increased, and there should be some financial acknowledgment of the fact.

Much has been said concerning returned soldier employees. Unlike the honorable member for Robertson (Mr. Fleming), when I receive a letter having to do with a matter outside of my electorate I make a practice of sending it on to the representative concerned. I have particulars of numerous cases of reasonable complaint which I would be justified in making known;, but I shall refer to one only as being typical. A young man who had been a wireless operator enlisted during the early stages of the war and applied to serve as a wireless operator on the transports. Before he had left Sydney, however, he was told that his services were required in the Postmaster-General’s Department and that he could not be given leave. Being an enthusiast and a loyal young man, he said he was determined to get away with the troops. He was told that in order to do so he would have to resign. He took that course and served on various transports for five years, during which period he was once torpedoed. For some time after his return he failed to secure employment. He has since returned to the Postmaster-General’s service as a postal official. He had had about seven years’ experience in the Department prior to enlisting, but those seven years have been lost to him. He has had to start afresh, and his seniority has been affected, simply because he went to the war. This case is not isolated.

I am sure that every honorable member would stand behind the PostmasterGeneral if he were prepared to make a determined effort to get out of the muddle in which he finds himself.

Mr FRANCIS:
Henty

Mr WISE:
PostmasterGeneral · Gippsland · NAT

– So far as telephone lines and departmental buildings are concerned, I do not propose to say anything now, because I dealt with that matter very fully three weeks ago. I shall have personalcomplants and individual cases mentioned by honorable members inquired into, and, if possible, remedied. As to grading the salaries’ of various officials, the Public Service Bill will be before us ere long, and the Committee will have the opportunity of going into those matters. As to postal affairs, it may be of interest to honorable members to know that, on Monday next, the first aerial mail service will be inaugurated in Western Australia. I hope it will prove practicable and satisfactory, and of value to the State.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Departmentof Health.

Proposed vote, £108,568.

Mr JACKSON:
Bass

.- I urge on the Minister (Mr. Greene) to make an inquiry into the subject of malignant malaria in the Northern Territory.

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– That is already in hand.

Mr JACKSON:

– Then I shall say no more.

Proposed vote agreed to.

War Services Payable out of Revenue.

Proposed vote, £8,969,513, less Repatriation votes already agreed to.

Motion (by Mr. Groom) agreed to.

That the following resolution be reported to the House : -

That, including the several sums already voted for such services, there be granted to His Majesty to defray the charges for the year 1921-22, for the several services hereunder specified, a sum not exceeding £27,391,035. Resolution reported. Motion (by **Mr. Groom)** agreed to - >That the Department of the Treasury be recommitted. *In Committee* (Recommittal) : The Treasury. Proposed vote, £1,207,280. Amendment (by **Dr. Earle** Page) put - >That the proposed vote be reduced by the sura of £100,000. The Committee divided. AYES: 10 NOES: 23 Majority ..... 13 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the negative. Amendment negatived. Resolution reported. Standing Orders suspended; resolutions adopted. In Committee of Ways and Means: Motion (by **Mr. Groom)** proposed - >That towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the services of the year 1921-22, there be granted out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund a sum not exceeding £15,030,765. {: #subdebate-6-0-s69 .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY:
Dampier -- I should like an assurance that an opportunity will be given to honorable members next week to discuss the question of the payment of the members of this House. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The Prime Minister has already given that assurance. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr Charlton: -- We have had that assurance. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- But I am now going to demand that we have that opportunity. {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr Groom: -- The Prime Minister, I understand, has promised that an opportunity shall be given. Question resolved in the affirmative. Resolution reported and adopted. *Ordered -* >That **Mr. Groom** and **Mr. Greene** do prepare and bring in a Bill to carry out the foregoing resolution. {: .page-start } page 13668 {:#debate-7} ### APPROPRIATION BILL 1921-1922 Bill presented by **Mr. Groom,** and passed through all its stages, without amendment or debate. {: .page-start } page 13668 {:#debate-8} ### SPECIAL ADJOURNMENT Motion (by **Mr. Groom)** agreed to - >That the House, at its rising, adjourn until Monday next, at 3 p.m. {: .page-start } page 13668 {:#debate-9} ### CONCILIATION AND ARBITRATION BILL Bill presented, and (on motion by **Mr. Groom),** read a first time. {: .page-start } page 13668 {:#debate-10} ### ADJOURNMENT **Mr. GROOM** (Darling Downs - Minister for Works and Railways [5.47 a.m.]. - I move - >That the House do now adjourn. I desire to thank honorable members for the assistance they have given the Government, enabling them to complete the consideration of the Estimates this week. We are very much indebted to them. Question resolved in the affirmative. House adjourned at 5.48 a.m. (Saturday).

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 2 December 1921, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1921/19211202_reps_8_98/>.

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House of Representatives 2 December 1921

PAPER

Papua- Ordinance of 1921- No. 9- Supplementary Appropriation (No. 4) 1920-21

QUESTION

POSTAGE AND TELEGRAPH CHARGES

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr WISE:Postmaster-General · GIPPSLAND, VICTORIA · NAT

CONCILIATION AND ARBITRATION BILL

INCOME TAX ASSESSMENT BILL

QUESTION

ESTIMATES 1921-1922

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr Watkins:NEWCASTLE, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr RODGERS:WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Dr EARLE PAGE:COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

Mr RODGERS:WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr Stewart:

Mr RODGERS:WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Dr EARLE PAGE:COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

Mr RODGERS:WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr Fowler:

Mr Hughes:

Mr RODGERS:WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr Hector Lamond:

Mr RODGERS:WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr Charlton:

Mr RODGERS:WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr FLEMING:ROBERTSON, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr RODGERS:WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr Prowse:

Mr RODGERS:WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr Maxwell:

Mr RODGERS:WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr Fleming:

Mr RODGERS:WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Dr EARLE PAGE:COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

Mr RODGERS:WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr Charlton:

Mr RODGERS:WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Dr EARLE PAGE:COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

Mr RODGERS:WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Dr EARLE PAGE:COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

Mr McWilliams:

Mr RODGERS:WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr Hector Lamond:

Mr RODGERS:WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Sir Robert Best:

Mr RODGERS:WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Dr EARLE PAGE:COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

Mr RODGERS:WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr Maxwell:

Mr RODGERS:WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr Riley:

Mr RODGERS:WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr Foley:

Mr RODGERS:WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Dr EARLE PAGE:COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

Mr RODGERS:WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Dr EARLE PAGE:COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

Mr RODGERS:WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Dr EARLE PAGE:COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

Mr RODGERS:WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Dr EARLE PAGE:COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

Mr RODGERS:WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Dr EARLE PAGE:COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr RODGERS:WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Dr EARLE PAGE:COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

Mr RODGERS:WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Dr EARLE PAGE:COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

Mr RODGERS:WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Sir Robert Best:

Mr RODGERS:WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr FLEMING:

Mr RODGERS:WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Sir ROBERT Best:

Mr RODGERS:WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr Hector Lamond:

Mr RODGERS:WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr Hector Lamond:

Mr Watt:

House of Representatives
2 December 1921

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr WISE:
Postmaster-General · GIPPSLAND, VICTORIA · NAT

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr Watkins:
NEWCASTLE, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr FLEMING:
ROBERTSON, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920