House of Representatives
3 November 1921

8th Parliament · 1st Session

Mr. Speaker (Hon. Sir Elliot Johnson) took the chair at 2.30 p.m., and readprayers.

page 12395



Alleged Flogging of Natives


-Will the Prime Minister have an inquiry made into the allegation that the natives of Rabaul are being flogged, and, if the statement is true, will he take prompt action to have this abominable practice stopped?

Prime Minister · BENDIGO, VICTORIA · NAT

– I have not heard that they are being flogged. Where did you read the statement?

Mr Charlton:

– I have read it on two or three occasions recently, and have reason to believe that there is something in it.


– I suppose it is a lie, as usual. 12396 Trading with Late. [REPRESENTATIVES.] Enemy Countries.

Mr Charlton:

– I ask that the right honorable gentleman have inquiries made to ascertain whether it is true. A letter has been received here stating that it is true.


– I shall have inquiries made, and I should like to see the letter referred to.

page 12396




– Is the Minister for Trade and Customs aware that the poultrymen of Australia are suffering rather seriously because of the importation of eggs from China? Can the honorable gentleman inform the House whether the proposed anti-dumping legislation will prevent such competition from ruining our poultry industry?


– This House has agreed to a duty on eggs of 9d. per dozen, which, I think, in conjunction with the duty on egg pulp and other egg products, will prevent serious competition from China. If it can be shown that eggs imported from China are being sold in Australia at a lower price than the home consumption value, the Anti-dumping Bill, when passed, will provide ample power for putting an end to that class of competition with the local eggs.

page 12396



for Mr. Gregory

asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice -

  1. Whether trading with late enemy countries is still prohibited by proclamation?
  2. Is it not a fact that for some time past wheat has been sold and exported to Germany ?
  3. Is such trading contrary to the Customs regulations ?
  4. Has the Department recently refused to permit the importation of manufacturers’ catalogues from enemy countries by post into Australia ?
  5. If so, what is the reason for, or object to be attained by, this action?

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

  1. Yes; as to imports only. Any goods that maybe lawfully exported may be exported to Germany.
  2. Yes.
  3. No.
  4. Yes.
  5. Catalogues are regarded as “ goods,” and as such come within the terms of the proclamation dated 14th January, 1920, publishedin the Commonwealth Gazette, No. 3, of 14th January, 1920.While the import restriction exists it would be obviously inconsistent to permit the introduction of any literature which would suggest to the receiver that trading is. permissible.

page 12396



for Mr. Mahony

asked the Minister for the Navy, upon notice -

  1. Willbe inform the House whether there is any matter being excised from the naval volume of the Australian Official History of the War If so, what is the nature ofsuch matter?
  2. Why is the naval volume being censored, when, according to Mr Bean’s introduction tattle first volume, just published, all other matter has been freed from censorship?
Minister for the Navy · DENISON, TASMANIA · NAT

– The complete manuscript for the naval volume has not yet been received from the gentleman intrusted with its authorship. When the volume is complete, the question of censorship’ will receive consideration.

page 12396


page 12396




asked the Prime

Minister, upon notice -

  1. Have nominations been invited from the different countries for the purpose of appointing representatives on a permanent Court of International Justice under the League of Nations?
  2. Have Great Britain, South Africa, and Canada nominated representatives?
  3. What does he. -intend to do in regard to Australia’s representation ?

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are, as follow: -

  1. Yes.
  2. GreatBritain, South Africa, and Canada nominated candidates for election to the Court.
  3. Australia nominated Viscount Finlay, G.C.M.G., former Lord Chancellor, and a member of the Permanent Court of Arbitration, who was also a nominee of Great Britain, as a candidate for election. The nomination for the Commonwealth was made by’ the national group appointed in Australia, which consisted of Sir Adrian Knox;Chief Justice of the Commonwealth; Sir William Cullen, Chief Justice of New South. Wales; Sir William Irvine, Chief Justice of Victoria; and the Hon. L.E. Groom, Minister for Works and Railways.
*Importations of Belgian* [3 November, 1921.] *Iron and Steel.* 12397 {: .page-start } page 12397 {:#debate-6} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-6-0} #### USE OF EXPLOSIVES {: #subdebate-6-0-s0 .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. What is the amount of explosives used in the Commonwealth in gold and coal mining respectively ? 1. What is the average weight of such explosives used per ton of coal produced? 2. What is the average weight of such explosives used per ton of ore produced other than coal? {: #subdebate-6-0-s1 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- As the matters covered by the question asked by the honorable member are outside the jurisdiction of the Commonwealth Government, there is no official information available in connexion therewith. An effort will be made to obtain the information desired by the honorable member. {: .page-start } page 12397 {:#debate-7} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-7-0} #### IMPORTATIONS OF BELGIAN IRON AND STEEL {: #subdebate-7-0-s0 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- On the 30th September the honorable member for Macquarie **(Mr. Nicholls)** asked the following questions : - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Is it a fact that iron and steel have been imported from Germany through Belgium to Australia; and, if so, what is the quantity? 1. Is it a fact that iron and steel are being imported to Australia from Belgium at an abnormally low price, thus preventing Australia from competing in that particular industry; and, if so, will he state the quantity imported for the years 1919, 1920, and 1921, and the price paid for such material? I am now able to furnish the honorable member with the following information : - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. No. For the honorable member's information, I may state that recently exhaustive inquiries in regard to this matter were made by a Departmental officer attached to the High Commissioner's Office, when it was ascertained that the ex-enemy value in the goods did not exceed the 5 per cent. allowed by the Proclamation of 14th January, 1920. 1. As imports are recorded only according to official statistical headings, it is not possible, in the absence of more definite particulars regarding quality and quantity of particular classes of iron and steel -imported, to make a satisfactory comparison between prices charged for iron and steel imported from Belgium and those charged for local products. For the information of the honorable member, however, I have had a statement prepared showing quantity and value, according to Statistical Classification, of iron and steel imported from Belgium, or of Belgian origin, during the financial years 1918-1919, '1919- 1920, 1920-1921, and the first three months of the present financial year. It is as follows: - Particulars of Iron and Steel Imported into the Commonwealth from Belgium, or of Belgian Origin. {: .page-start } page 12397 {:#debate-8} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-8-0} #### KELSO ESTATE INCOME TAX RETURNS {: #subdebate-8-0-s0 .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr RILEY: asked the Treasurer, *upon notice -* {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Have income tax returns been furnished by the executors of the Kelso estate, New South Wales, for the years 1914-15, 1915-16, 1916-17, 1917-18? 1. Were such returns(if any) furnished in the respective periods as required by the Income Tax Assessment Act? 2. If not, what steps have been taken to deal with those responsible for failing to furnish the returns yearly as required? {: #subdebate-8-0-s1 .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I have not yet been able to obtain the information from Sydney, and I am not clear whether, when it has been obtained, I can make it public. {: .page-start } page 12397 {:#debate-9} ### PAPERS The following papers were presented - Northern Territory. - Ordinances of 1921 - No. 10- Jury. No. 12 - Examination of Engine-drivers. No. 14 - Liquor. Papua. - Ordinances of 1921 - No. 8- Supply (No. 1), 1921-22. No. 10- Supply (No. 2), 1921-22. Public Service Act. - Promotion of W. D. Taylor, Department of Trade and Customs. Question. - That **Mr. Speaker** do now leave the Chair, and the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply - proposed. {: #debate-9-s0 .speaker-JWG} ##### Mr FOWLER:
Perth .- Yesterday . I protested against unauthorized persons being allowed to deliver lectures within Parliament House on somewhat delicate international subjects, and if the report which appears in to-day's *Age* of a lecture delivered last night in the Senate Club Room is correct, as I have no doubt it is, my protest was couched in language that was unduly mild. According to the *Age* report, the lecturer made very grave allegations against a friendly Power. He spoke of the Japanese as a " blight," and asserted that an agreement entered into between J apan and America was a "subterfuge" and a " fraud." In some parts of his lecture he spoke with approval of a possible Anglo-American-Japanese Alliance. {: .speaker-KDZ} ##### Mr Jowett: -- Was the honorable member present at the lecture? {: .speaker-JWG} ##### Mr FOWLER: -- No. {: .speaker-KDZ} ##### Mr Jowett: -- Have you any reason to believe that the report is accurate? {: .speaker-JWG} ##### Mr FOWLER: -- Ihave every reason to believe that it is accurate. But in talking of Japan in the way he did, according to this report, the lecturer is going the wrong way to bring about an alliance of the kind. {: .speaker-JNV} ##### Mr Bamford: -- He said nothing offensive to Japan. {: .speaker-JWG} ##### Mr FOWLER: -- That may be so according to the opinion of the honor able member, but when this gentleman declares that the agreement entered into with America, in regard to Japanese immigration, is a subterfuge and a fraud- {: .speaker-KDZ} ##### Mr Jowett: -- What reason have you to believe that he did say so ? {: .speaker-JWG} ##### Mr FOWLER: -- The very words the man used are reported within quotation marks, and until they are denied I am going to take the report as correct. {: .speaker-JWG} ##### Mr FOWLER: -- I have spoken to a gentleman who was at the lecture, and who heard the words. {: .speaker-KDZ} ##### Mr Jowett: -- Is he a member of this House? {: .speaker-JWG} ##### Mr FOWLER: {: .speaker-KDZ} ##### Mr Jowett: -- Then I hope he will get up and say so, whoever he is; I did not hear those words. {: .speaker-JWG} ##### Mr FOWLER: -- The person concerned, if he cares to deny the use of the words, has an opportunity to do so, but I take the report as substantially correct. {: .speaker-KDZ} ##### Mr Jowett: -- I do not think it is correct. {: .speaker-JWG} ##### Mr FOWLER: -- At any rate, I protest against the buildings of this Parliament being used by any unauthorized person to deliver lectures on a difficult and delicate subject like this at the present time. As I was going to say, this gentleman is apparently in favour of an agreement, or friendly arrangement, between the United States of America, the British Empire, and Japan. And so are we all; we all hope that such an arrangement will be brought about; but when we find wild statements made with regard to one of those Powers by an individual who proposes such an alliance, then I say that his suggestion comes very near to hypocrisy. Speaking generally asto the tone of tie lecture, as gathered from the newspaper report, the lecturer is evidently one of a considerable class of citizen of the United States of America which for some years past has been creating a Japanese scare there. {: .speaker-KDZ} ##### Mr Jowett: -- Why speak of a citizen of the United States in that way? {: .speaker-JWG} ##### Mr FOWLER: -- I say there is a very considerable section in the United States of America which has been deliberately creating a Japanese scare, with a result which is quite apparent to every one who has been looking on - that is, that Japan and America have been brought within measurable distance of war. {: .speaker-KFC} ##### Mr Fleming: -- That is a very much graver statement than anything said last night. {: .speaker-JWG} ##### Mr FOWLER: -- It is the opinion of many more than myself that America and Japan are being gradually brought within measurable distance of war, largely through a purely imaginary state of affairs. There lis no doubt whatever that Australia, the British Empire, and America have every right to regard J apan as an 'ally, whose assistance was of inestimable advantage at a very critical juncture. I wish to quote the opinion of a writer in a public journal in regard to what the Allies owe to Japan in connexion with the war. He points out - >If Japan had been against us we should have lost the war ; not a soldier could have come to us from Australasia, India, South Africa, or Canada- they would have been needed at Home. And what of America.? Even with. Japan merely neutral and doubtful, Americawould not have dared to move her army and navy. In view of that correct statement o£ the position, I say that it is in. the highest degree regrettable that there are persons in this country, as well as in the United States of America, who persist in creating a largely imaginary Japanese scare with regard to the intentions and objects of that country. {: .speaker-KDZ} ##### Mr Jowett: -- Are you not doing that sort of thing now? {: .speaker-JWG} ##### Mr FOWLER: -- I am not; and I hope that the honorable member has sufficient intelligence to perceive it. I do not wish for one moment to pose as the apologist of Japan; I wish to make that perfectly clear. Japan has done things that are open to grave objection, but she is in a very difficult position at present. For many years she was patted on the shoulder as a very promising youngster - patronized and applauded by all the white races of the world. It was only when she began to take a leaf out of the book of the occidental nations in the matter of the acquisition of territory that the trouble began. It was all right for Britain and other countries to acquire territory, but it was wrong for Japan; and to-day she is in the position of having hardily a friend im the world because of actions of hers, the equivalent of which can be quoted in the history of nearly- every other civilized nation on the face of the earth. Japan is in a very difficult situation. She has a population which is increasing at the rate of nearly three-quarters of a million a year, with no space for 'them in their, own. country: Naturally, Japan desires territory where her people can make a living for themselves,, while remaining citizens df the Japanese empire. She has looked, in places in her own immediate vicinity, and she finds what she requires in countries like Korea, Manchuria, Eastern Siberia, and. Mongolia. But;. because she has taken, action in those countries, it is assumed that she is desperately desirous of acting, still further afield and sending her people into Australia, and the United States of America. So far as we can accept the utterances of Japanese statesmen, they do not desire the Japanese people to enter either of those countries), but would rather keep them nearer,- at home. There is at present an. agreement in operation, between the United States of. America, and Japan, which rigidly excludes the Japanese-r-an agreement entered into with the hearty consent and cooperation of the Japanese Government. There are, no doubt, many Japanese in the United States of America, particularly on the Pacific coast, but those Japanese came there with the hearty good-will and approval of the American people themselves. They were not only welcomed, but invited to come. Why? Because labour was required on the Pacific slope by the fruit and vegetable growers, who were very glad to see this Japanese immigration. I could, if necessary quote numerous instances, which I have here, in support of my statement that the Japanese immigration was originally welcomed by the United States of America, but the fact is well 'enough known to make the quotation of authorities quite unnecessary. {: .speaker-JNV} ##### Mr Bamford: -- They have been welcomed in North Queensland, too. {: .speaker-JWG} ##### Mr FOWLER: -- They may have been. These labourers who went to America, being of a thrifty and industrious disposition, and in receipt of good wages, acquired money,, and,, naturally, looked, for opportunities to- better themselves. This was where the trouble commenced, They were all right so long as they remained in a condition of wagedom, but they were all wrong when they became occupants of lands which they cultivated for themselves. That explains the whole of the difficulty that has arisen in regard to the Japanese on the Pacific coast. {: .speaker-KDZ} ##### Mr Jowett: -- I do not think we should discuss these things in Parliament. {: .speaker-JWG} ##### Mr FOWLER: -- If we do not .discuss them, but allow unauthorized persons to discuss them for us, it will be all the worse for this country some day. {: .speaker-KDZ} ##### Mr Jowett: -- What about unauthorized reports? {: .speaker-JWG} ##### Mr FOWLER: -- I am assuming the report in the *Age* to be absolutely correct, and the words I have read are quoted in inverted commas to indicate that they were the actual words used by the lecturer. I have here volume XCIII. of the *Annals of the American Academy of Political and Social Science* for J January, 1921. This is an eminent magazine which publishes articles under the names of many brilliant authorities. In an article by Robert Newton Lynch, Vice-President and Manager of the .San Francisco Chamber of Commerce, the writer says - >The first instalment of Japanese immigration was rather welcomed in California. . . > >The history of Japanese immigration was marked, first, by a favorable attitude, due to the .prestige of their country, and the possession of the very favorable qualities which later were so strongly urged against them. Undoubtedly that was so. {: .speaker-KZC} ##### Mr Hector Lamond: -- That does not prevent the American people from reviewing their attitude. {: .speaker-JWG} ##### Mr FOWLER: -- I a prepared to recognise the necessity for reviewing the position, but I point out that the authority who wa's lecturing in the .Senate Club room last night put down the Japanese immigration troubles to the failure of the Japanese people to observe a "gentlemen's agreement." The *Age* report says - >Professor Hertsman told the story of the "gentlemen's agreement," under which certain restrictions on Japanese immigration into America were mutually recognised, but he asserted that the agreement was " a subterfuge and a fraud." Everybody knew that to be the case, he said. There were to-day 125,000 Japanese in the United States of America. They owned large tracts of the most valuable agricultural and garden lands on the Pacific coast. If that report is correct the lecturer would make it appear that the Japanese government, having made an agreement with the American authorities to restrict immigration, had deliberately ignored and flouted that undertaking, and allowed their people to enter the United States of America. I have evidence, from reputable American authorities to show that " the gentlemen's agreement " has been an effective one. In *America's Foreign Relations,* by Willis Fletcher Johnson, Honorary Professor of the History of American Foreign Relations in -New York University, author of a number of publications, says - >Meantime our Secretary of State, Hoot, entered into negotiations with the Japanese Government for a modification of treaty relations which would restrict the immigration of coolies. Japan cordially responded, being herself strongly desirous of stopping such migration, since she felt the need of all her working men at home, for the development of her new estates in Formosa and Korea. He goes on to speak of " a sinister, sordid, and insincere campaign " waged by certain people in the United States of America against the Japanese, which I have already indicated as having brought the two countries within measurable distance of war. In the *Annals of the American Academy of Political and Social Science* I find another reference to the " gentlemen's agreement." Speaking of a somewhat sensational report sent in by the Governor of California on the subject of Japanese population, Sidney L. Gulick, D.D., secretary of the National Committee for Constructive Immigration Legislation, New York City, says- >A careful study of the facts, therefore, does not seem to substantiate the Governor's view, or the implication of the report that there has been any serious violation of the agreement. He speaks in another part of his article of the "excited f fablemongers " who have been doing their best to create ill-feeling in America against the Japanese. Professor Herbsman said that the number of Japanese people in the United States was 125,000. I have here an extract from an article written by Payson J. Treat, in the *Atlantic Monthly,* for April, 1921, one of the most reputable of the American journals. This writer says - >In 1920 the census showed 70,196 Japanese, or 2 per cent of the population, an increase of 28,840 in the decade. . . . The estimate of the State Board of control, not based on an enumeration, was 87,279. *Supply* [3 November, 1921.] *(Formal).* 12401 That estimate would undoubtedly incline to over-state rather than under-state the number, because of the policy of the State Government. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- To what year do those figures relate? {: #debate-9-s1 .speaker-JWG} ##### Mr FOWLER: -- They are as nearly up to date as possible. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr Riley: -- What point does the honorable member seek to make? {: .speaker-JWG} ##### Mr FOWLER: -- I wish to show that the gentleman who was lecturing in this building is a sensation monger, who is vilifying an ally of this country in order to create an antagonistic feeling against her. {: .speaker-KMU} ##### Mr Marks: -- The honorable member is not game to tell him so. {: .speaker-JWG} ##### Mr FOWLER: -- I am telling him so now. It would take a bigger man than the honorable member to frighten me. The *Annals of the American Academy of Political and Social Science* also made reference to the matter of population, and the writer says - >The net result of this investigation is that the facts are far from clear. We shall probably be fairly safe if we regard the Japanese population in California as somewhere between 70,000 and 80,000. {: .speaker-KDZ} ##### Mr Jowett: -- I do not believe that statement. {: .speaker-JWG} ##### Mr FOWLER: -- The honorable member is one of those comfortable-minded persons who can disbelieve anything that does not suit him. The lecturer last night also told us that the Japanese people own " large tracts of the most valuable agricultural and garden land on the Pacific Coast." I can supply the House with a little official information regarding their ownership of land. {: .speaker-JSC} ##### Mr Brennan: -- The lecturer seems to think that we knew nothing about these matters. {: .speaker-JWG} ##### Mr FOWLER: -- Undoubtedly ; he has come over to educate us upon them. The report emanating from the State Board of Control, California, says - >The report gives statistics of land owned and leased by Japanese in each county in California, and also the total acreage of irrigated land. It shows that Japanese own 74,769 acres; this is six-tenths of 1 per cent. (.006) of the total amount of cultivated land (11,389,894 acres). "Farm lands," still "unimproved," remain to the extent of 16,541,550 acres. The lecturer would have every one believe that the Japanese own large tracts of the most valuable country and garden land on the Pacific coast, whereas they hold not more than six-tenths of 1 per cent. of the total cultivated land of California, that is to say, they do not own more than 74,769 acres out of the total area of 11,389,894 acres. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr Riley: -- Is not that a large area of land? {: .speaker-JWG} ##### Mr FOWLER: -- It would be if it were in one tract, but the sensational statement made by the lecturer last night was intended to convey the impression that California was rapidly becoming possessed by the Japanese, whereas the figures show conclusively that they are not the active menace which the lecturer made out they were to the people on the Pacific coast. I do not wish to labour thematter or follow the lecturer through the whole of his lecture. It was probably interesting in parts and correct in parts, but what I wish to put very earnestly before the House is the fact that the practice of opening up our precincts to unauthorized persons to speak at random on subjects of political and international importance is very dangerous indeed. {: .speaker-KDZ} ##### Mr Jowett: -- The honorable member is now on sound ground. {: .speaker-JWG} ##### Mr FOWLER: -- If the honorable member takes the trouble to review what I have said this afternoon he will realize that all along I have been on sound ground. What I have been saying has merely been leading up to the important contention which I am glad the honorable member recognises. So far as these international matters are concerned it would be as well for us to exercise a certain amount of wholesome reserve. {: .speaker-KDZ} ##### Mr Jowett: -- Hear, hear! It would have been well if the honorable member had done so this afternoon. {: .speaker-JWG} ##### Mr FOWLER: -- Again, I refer the honorable member to the report of my speech, if he cares to read it, because he will recognise that I have spoken with very commendable reserve. I might have easily used much stronger language in justification of the protest I. am now making against the practice of allowing irresponsible persons to lecture honorable members on matters in regard to which 12402 *Supply* [REPRESENTATIVES.] *(Formal).* they are possibly as well informed as the lecturers themselves. I hope that this will be the last occasion upon which we shall have international relations discussed within the precints of Parliament in the manner in which, according to the *Age* report, this gentleman from America referred to them last night. {: #debate-9-s2 .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON:
Hunter -- I am compelled to make some explanation in regard to the statements made by the honorable member for Perth **(Mr. Fowler),** because the accuracy of the *Age's* report of last night's lecture has been challenged by some honorable mem bears. This morning the honorable member for Perth asked me whether the lecturer had been correctly reported, particularly in regard to the following passage : - >Professor Hertsman told the story of the "gentleman's agreement," under which certain restrictions on Japanese immigration into America were mutually recognised, but he asserted that the agreement was " a subterfuge and a fraud." I told the honorable member, and I still maintain, that, to the best of my recollection, those were the words used by the lecturer. Other honorable members will, I think, agree with me. I appreciated the lecture very much. The lecturer spoke ably and. vigorously, and gave us a good deal of information. By the way he paid a great tribute to the assistance rendered by the British Navy to America in consequence of which, he said, a very good feeling existed between the United States of America and Great Britain. His remarks concerning Japan and the colour question might bear the significance given to them by the honorable member for Perth, but I was pleased to hear him dissipate at) least one fear we have had placed before us time and again in this Chamber, namely, that it is absolutely necessary for Australia to spend money in providing a Navy for Defence purposes in the Pacific, on the supposition that the teeminghordes ofJapancan findroom for expansion in no other spot but Australia. {: .speaker-JSC} ##### Mr Brennan: -- That is the Prime Minister's strong suit. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- Yes. Last night it was refreshing to hear the lecturer state that Japan had sufficient scope in Eastern Siberia, Korea, and Manchuria for the whole of its surplus population, and, in fact, had a greater area in which to absorb their surplus than the whole of the United States of America. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWilliams: -- Is it not a fact that they have been refused permission to remain in Siberia? {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- Not according to the lecturer. {: .speaker-JWG} ##### Mr Fowler: -- These matters will be resolved in all probability at the forthcoming Conference at Washington. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- It was pleasing to learn that Japan has sufficient latitude for expansion in the countries I have mentioned. I am thankful for it. {: .speaker-JWG} ##### Mr Fowler: -- I have told this House time and again that the Japanese scare, so far as Australia is concerned, is largely fake. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- I do not propose to debate the subject at this stage, but my. feelings are somewhat in line with those of the honorable member. Now that the war is over, instead of creating ill feeling between nations by criticising one another, we ought to be exercising every care to do our utmost to create mutual feelings of respect between nations with a view to preventing future wars. I agree with what the lecturer said last night at the conclusion of his remarks. Every public man should guard against saying anything offensive to another nation, and should do his best to build up feelings of mutual confidence and harmony between the nations so that we may be able to bring about, if not disarmament, at least a limitation of armaments. The lecturer last night did not go as far as I would like to go, but he made it quite clear that, although he did not think there was the slightest hope for disarmament, he agreed with the declaration of the President of the United States for a limitation of armaments.I contend that if we add our plea, not only for the limitation of armaments, but also for disarmament, we shall be working along proper lines, because even if we do not now achieve our definite object, we may prevent anything from being done 'to aggravate those feelings between nations 'which bring about war. {: .speaker-JRH} ##### Mr Bowden: -- We would still need armaments for police purposes. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- No one willargue that we should not have what is necessary for internal affairs. *Supply* [3 November, 1921.] *(Formal).* 12403 {: .speaker-JRH} ##### Mr Bowden: -- I referred to international affairs. {: #debate-9-s3 .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr CHARLTON: -- That is a matter forthe nations themselves to determine. If the leading public men of every nation would endeavour, as far as possible, to prevent war by bringing about disarmament, or, at all events, the limitation of armaments, they would do good service to humanity. That, I am sure, is the desire of the people of every nation, quite irrespective of colour. Much is made of the difference in colour, but that, after all, might be termed a mere accident of birth. There can be no division of opinion as to the desirableness of creating a good feeling as between the nations and endeavouring in every way possible to prevent the possibility of war in the future. {: #debate-9-s4 .speaker-KHE} ##### Mr HIGGS:
Capricornia .- Although the abject of Professor Hertsman is tobring about a better feeling between the United States of America and Great Britain, it would appear that the time at his disposal last night was so short that his lecture gave rise to nothing but dissatisfaction on the part of at least one honorable member of this Parliament. I refer to the honorable member for Perth **(Mr. Fowler).** {: .speaker-KMU} ##### Mr Marks: -- Who was not present. {: .speaker-KHE} ##### Mr HIGGS: -- No; but I am inclined to think that if he had been present he would have taken exception to the lecturer's view, which appears to be that Japan, Great Britain, and the United States of America should enter into an agreement to police the world. It is impossible for those countries, in my opinion, to ignore the nations of the mainland of Europe, including France, Germany, Austria, and Russia. {: .speaker-KDZ} ##### Mr Jowett: -- Was it not the view of the lecturer that the agreement should relate only to policing the seas, and not the land? {: .speaker-KHE} ##### Mr HIGGS: -- That may be; but, even so, in any contemplated alliance for such a purpose the nations of the mainlandof Europe, which I have mentioned, and, indeed our own birthplace, could not be ignored. I take no exception to the action of the honorable member for Perth in bringing forward this questi on, althoughI should have been pleased if we had had more notice of his intention to do so. I can conceive of no more important subject for disoussion than that of our foreign relations ; and if the Tariff were out of the way I should he glad if a day or two were at once devoted to its consideration. I doubt whether it will be possible, either for us or future generations, to adopt the suggestion of the Deputy Leader of the Opposition **(Mr. Charlton),** that we should refrain from saying anything likely to offend other nations. The question whether or not it is possible for the people of the East and West to intermarry without loss of moral and intellectual strength is of such great importance that, at no distant date, I am inclined to think we shall have to candidly discuss it. {: .speaker-KMU} ##### Mr Marks: -- The lecturer said last night that he wanted the Japanese cards to be thrown on the table. {: .speaker-KHE} ##### Mr HIGGS: -- That is so. He said also that there were in the United States of America at the present time 15,000,000 negroes. He reminded his audience that negroes were originally brought into America in chains. {: .speaker-KZC} ##### Mr Hector Lamond: -- And now they are sometimes burned with oil. {: .speaker-KHE} ##### Mr HIGGS: -- Why were they brought there? The answer is that there is in every nation a number of men who are prepared by any means to make money. If they can obtain slave labour they will make use of it, and they do not care where or how they get it. America to-day is suffering because the iniquities of the fathers are visited on the children unto the third and fourth generation. Professor Hertsman said last night that the resultant offspring of the unions between whites and negroes were partially white, that in the course of two or three generations they became apparently wholly white, but that the fourth generation might produce a black child. I remember reading, some twenty-five years ago, an essay by **Sir Garnet** Wolseley, who expressed the opinion that the Armageddon of the future would be a war between the East and the West - between the white and the coloured races. If he was right, how can we afford to ignore Germany, Austria, and Russia in any agreement we may propose to make regarding the maintenance of the peace of the world? {: .speaker-KMU} ##### Mr Marks: -- The honorable member is making a very good point. 12404 *Supply* [REPRESENTATIVES.](Formal). An. Honorable Member. - Does- the honorable member for Capricornia think there will he a war between the white and coloured races ? {: .speaker-KHE} ##### Mr HIGGS: -- I am not sufficiently farseeing or wise enough to be able to form an opinion as to whether there will be a war between the East and the "West. Theremay come such a war; it depends upon our attitude. I suppose that if we had the courage to follow the command, " Go ye into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature" - and act up to it - we might avert the prophesied Armageddon; but if white capitalists will insist, as they are doing at the present time, in taking their capital into China and other Asiatic countries and exploiting the cheap labour there with the object of cutting the ground from under the feet of their own fellow white peoples, no one can say what may happen in the future. I regard the East-West question as of the very gravest importance. It is one that we might discuss at any time with more profit than some of the matters, not even excluding the price of wheat, that come before this House. To get back to the point raised by the honorable member for Perth **(Mr. Fowler)** as to the use of the parliamentary buildings for lecturing purposes, I would remind honorable members that the lecture delivered by **Sir Ross** Smith in the Queen's Hall some time ago was attended by a very large number of parliamentarians, pressmen, and others, and proved highly interesting. One often sees a better attendance of members at a lecture in the Queen's Hall, on the sugar industry, the banana industry, the Murray water conservation scheme, or similar subjects, than we sometimes have in the Parliament itself, where, according to **Sir Hilaire** Belloc, no one listens to any one else. Belloc complained that in the House of 'Commons on one occasion there was only one member who appeared to he listening to' the speaker, and that he discovered subsequently that this member was watching him intently only because he desired to catch **Mr. Speaker's** eye as soon as he sat down. I see no harm in allowing the use of the Queen's Hall for a lecture on the sugar industry, cotton cultivation in Australia, or any like subject; but it would appear that there is no advantage to be gained in allowing the use of the parliamentary building for lectures on controversial subjects. Such lectures would do no good, and it would be better for the professors and others who wish to deliver them to get a hall in the city. As for the musical entertainment that has been spoken of, I hope that you, **Mr. Speaker,** and thePresident will reconsider your decision to give permission for it. If it is held, members of Parliament will be misrepresented in regard to it; and we have enough adverse critics already, without adding to their number by giving opportunity for the suggestion that we devote to musical entertainments time that should be given to our legislative duties.. {: #debate-9-s5 .speaker-JSC} ##### Mr BRENNAN:
Batman -- I am very much interested in the matter brought forward for discussion by the honorable member for Perth **(Mr. Fowler).** Although my point of view does not coincide in all particulars with his, I agree with a good deal of what he has said. - I am not one of those who think that we should abstain from discussing international matters lest we might give offence to some foreign power, because there is good reason to believe that even should we hurt the feelings of the governing body of a particular nation, we might at the same time be giving expression to views strongly held by a not inconsiderable minority in its country. With regard to the lecture that was given in this building last evening, I must say that I am reluctant to place limitations on the right of any person to give expression to hisviews on any public question in any place where he can find an audience. {: .speaker-JWG} ##### Mr Fowler: -- Hear, hear! In any public place. {: #debate-9-s6 .speaker-JSC} ##### Mr BRENNAN:
BATMAN, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- That general statement, like all general statements, is subject to exceptions and limitations. I do not think that fictitious importance should be created for a comparatively unimportant personage, either by inviting or by allowing him to come within the precincts of Parliament for the purpose] of expressing his views. There are public halls in Melbourne of which he may avail himself. There are vacant places about street corners in Melbourne, and there is the Yarra Bank. These places have been used for much, saner and more useful propaganda than that to which expression was given by the gentleman who is now being unduly advertised. It does not follow that because a person comes here and recites a part with tremendous selfassurance, the estimate which he puts upon his own importance is tha considered valuation either of the country from which he comes, or of that by virtue of whose hospitality he speaks. Perhaps I should have said at the outset that I was not present at the lecture. I can only express regret that circumstances prevented me from being present. My absence was not owing to any special prejudice against the lecturer, or to the fact that he was using the Senate club-room for its deliverance; it was due to quite other causes. But having had the advantage of discussing the lecture with members who were present, and whose word I am prepared to accept without qualification - and notwithstanding that I have read the newspaper reports - I claim to have a fairly accurate knowledge of what was said last evening by the more or less distinguished gentleman who lectured. ' I think that the phrase, " Spread Eagleism," is, if I may quote the lecturer, " 100 per cent. American " ; I am not so sure that the term " bounder " is of American origin; I think it is merely good English. But, again, to use a phrase of the lecturer, while I make no charges, I venture to remark that I have been considering the connotation of both terms since I have heard of the subject-matter of the lecture, and the manner in which it was treated last evening. I have a very great admiration for the American people for many reasons, into which it is not now necessary to go: an admiration which is inspired ' by some knowledge of their history, their beginnings, and their present status among the world's nations. I should be very sorry to think that the present phase of what is called Chatauqua is in any real sense typical of true Americanism. The truth is that there is a certain kind of transported British reactionary who is more offensive to the spirit of Democracy in the country of his adoption than he was in the country of his origin; and there he was fairly offensive. The lecturer spoke of Japan as a blight. Every one knows that I belong to a party which stands for the ideal of a White Australia. {: .speaker-JWG} ##### Mr Fowler: -- Hear, hear ! So do we all. {: .speaker-JSC} ##### Mr BRENNAN: -- I would like people to know, too, that I do not stand for gratuitous offensiveness to the peoples of other nations. I do not stand for the invitation by the guardians of this Parliament to a person to speak within this building and under our auspices in a spirit of blatant offensiveness towards an allied people. It appears that he imported into his speech a blasphemous coupling of the name of the Saviour with a policy of licensed outrage upon the negroes of America. I take leave to say from my place in this chamber that I do not stand for that. The American people brought the negroes to their country in chains, and now," as an honorable member has said, by interjection, they burn them in kerosene oil. Like other nations, they are reaping the fruit of the tree that they planted. The lecturer stands for the limitation of armaments. I have heard the phrase, as we all have heard it, very frequently of late. There are two classes using it, particularly in connexion with the Conference that is to sit in Washington. They are those who stand for the cessation of war and the . abolition of armaments, and those who stand for a continuance of bloody commercial wars. Those who stand for the destruction of armaments and an end of war do not advocate anything other than that,, while those who stand for the retention of the conditions of bloody wars advocate nothing more than the " limitation of armaments." That is the apparently harmless phrase - to some m a hopeful phrase, but to me an utterly hopeless one - in which they cloud their real meaning, their real international belief. It is a phrase which has been used in this chamber, and not infrequently by the Leader of the House. I rise only to let the public know, and to let my constituents know, that the text of this lecture having been brought under my notice, we humble members of the Federal Parliament of Australia claim .to be at least partly aware, from independent sources, of what is proceeding on the other side of the world, in America, in Japan, and among the older nations. We take the trouble to inform ourselves a little on these matters. We do not close our minds to them, nor do we close our doors to visitors or their propaganda. We invite 12406 *Supply* [REPRESENTATIVES.] *(Formal).* visitors to come here for the interchange of views, to ascertain honestly how far their views harmonize with ours, and to what extent they disagree. But we are Under no illusions as to what the real America is, nor as to the class of persons for whom the representative of Chatauqua spoke in the Senate club-room last night. {: #debate-9-s7 .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS:
Melbourne Ports -- I am somewhat surprised at the storm in the tea cup which has been raised over the address given last night by a gentleman from the United States of America. I heard what he' said, and failed to see in his remarks any antagonism to the Japanese more than has always been displayed. I failed to discern anything in the lecture except a realization that the desire to get the cheap labour of the black man has failed because of what it brings in its trail. However, the lecturer last night did not deal particularly with what might befall the peaceful capture of America by the Japanese, nor with the negro question. What I read into his address was a desire in Great Britain and the United States to hold on tenaciously to the present economic system. One utterance alone revealed to me what he meant. He said that we were only talking about the limitation of armaments - that we could not talk about their abolition - for the reason that in Soviet Russia there were millions of trained men all waiting to be let loose on the other nations. That was the real tenor of his address last night. The Japanese need have no fear of such men as the lecturer, but the workers of the world may have need for fear, because he is one of those men who are advocating broadcast the interests of the present system. However, I have no fear, for talk is cheap ! We on this side can pit good men against such as the lecturer of last night. During the lecture, I should have liked to make two interjections, but refrained., I may say that I would not be one to prevent gentlemen of this sort, if they are allowed, by the authorities to do so, addressing members of the House. We are not compelled to goand hear them, and I can quite understand that if I were to get permission from the President of the Senate for an advocate of the Soviet system to deliver a lecture, horror would be expressed by honorable gentlemen opposite. {: .speaker-JSC} ##### Mr Brennan: -- I doubt whether he would be allowed even a seat in the gallery. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- He might not. Personally, I would encourage the delivery of addresses such as we heard last night, but I hope that all sides will be heard. {: .speaker-JSC} ##### Mr Brennan: -- I would not mind if such visitors were allowed in here, and we could have a " go " on fair terms. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- Such a privilege is only for representatives1 of the people. I am going to apply to the President for permission for a gentleman called Kiminoff to address members of the House on Soviet Russia, and I shall be surprised and disappointed if he is not allowed to do so. Should I get permission for such a lecture, I shall be annoyed if honorable members opposite do not attend as largely as they did last night, to hear a true exposition of Soviet Russia without disfigurement by any of the lies which appear in the press. I hope that you, **Mr. Speaker,** will assist us in having further entertainments of . the) kind, but. I trust that those who advocate the wiping out of our present economic system will be heard as well as others. {: #debate-9-s8 .speaker-KMU} ##### Mr MARKS:
Wentworth .- Like the honorable member for Capricornia **(Mr. Higgs),** I should have liked some notice from the honorable member for Perth **(Mr. Fowler)** that this important subject was to be brought up this afternoon. It is a, subject connected with the limitation of armaments, and one that we might debate for hours; indeed, in a few days time, we shall be discussing whether there shall be a continuance or a limitation of the Australian Navy. As regards the lecture of last night, only one member, so far, seems to hold a brief for the lecturer, and that is the honorable member for Melbourne Ports **(Mr. Mathews)-,** who has just sat down. I think that the legislators and the people of Australia are wide enough in their horizon to welcome in the Senate clubroom people of all shades of opinion, who can give us information. Personally, I do* not care who lectures; I shall be there to listen. I am always ready to learn. Any person who was not present last night missed a treat. Some things the lecturer said, I should not, perhaps, myself have the courage to say as he did ; *Supply* [3 November, 1921.] *(Formal).* 12407 in other words, I should have endeavoured to use a little more tact in dealing with our late, or present, ally, Japan. He said that the people of the United States of America did not think that Japan was " playing the game " in sending Japanese to America, and that the time had arrived when President Harding desired Japan to lay all her cards on the table. Personally, I was delighted to be present at the lecture, which was most instructive from many aspects. About two years ago I was through all the towns mentioned by the lecturer, and I must admit that I was very considerably impressed with the number of Japanese I saw there. The figures which he quoted, and which, I understand, are correct, are higher than those given tous by the honorable member for Perth. "When there I was told by departmental officers that the number of Japanese on the Pacific Slope alone was 125,000, whereas the honorable member gives the figure at 87,000. The honorable member for Perth did not mention the number in Honolulu, and if he had heard the figures given by the lecturer he would have received a shock. Mr.Fowler. - I quoted official figures, and I know the position in Honolulu. {: .speaker-KMU} ##### Mr MARKS: -- However, it is rather dangerous ground we are on to-day - as to that I agree with the honorable member for Perth - and that is why I do not like the subject being introduced at all. {: .speaker-JWG} ##### Mr Fowler: -- Would you allow any unauthorized person to talk here about it, and haveus keep silent? {: .speaker-KMU} ##### Mr MARKS: -- The honorable member started the discussion, and I am going on with it - I like to see the " cards on the table." A few days ago I had a quiet chat with the Deputy Leader of theOpposition **(Mr. Charlton),** and told him of some of my beliefs as to some of the happenings in the future. I ask honorable members to listen to me without interjecting, because I am not able to catch all that is said in that way. I am going to talk on a matter that may bring a smile to the faces of honorable members; but when I tell them that I am speaking on the authority of the Bible, their smiles may disappear. The honorable member for Capricomia asked if the Armageddon were going to come between East and West. The Bible would leadme to say "No." Many things that I am going to tell honorable members are clear in the Bible, and if any would like to follow this matter up later, outside the chamber, I should be delighted to give chapter and verse from that book, showing what has happened in the past and what is to happen in the future. I am firmly of thebelief that everything that is going to happen in the future of great importance is there for us to look at if we care to find it. The next war, which is the Armageddon, will happen in the year 1934. Three nations will attack the British Empire. Two of those nations I am going to name now, the third I would rather not name. The two nations are Russia and Germany, who, combined with the other, will be at war with the British Empire in Palestine. The battlefield is mentioned in the Bible - the battle takes place at Jerusalem, and the part that the British Navy will play is distinctly mentioned. The cemetery, the time for collection of the dead, the time for the collection of the arms of war to be destroyed are all mentioned. The part that Australia plays is also mentioned. Australia is not mentioned by the word "Australia," because that name was not known at the time, but certain names are mentioned so far as the British Empire is concerned. We read of " the merchants of Tarshish and all the little lions." The "little lions" are the British Empire colonies. The British Naval Base is mentioned - Cyprus, which to-day is but a stone's throw from the British Naval Base we have at Malta.This battle of Armageddon is the last - it is the millennium - Christ's return to earth. The battle is being fought - the words are clear in the Bible - and the British Forces are in danger of being wiped out. When Christ re-appears, it is said it will be on the spot on which He left the earth, just east of Jerusalem, and in the robe of a tattered beggar and thief. That means that. He will quietly and silently come into the British headquarters. There will be great storms, tempests, deluge, and fire - no doubt from the air - coming down and wiping out the army opposing us. The British nation from the start has been one of the main - I . hardly know how to express it - but has been ordained by the Almighty to take this part on Christ's final return to earth; nothing can ever undermine the British Empire to our utter destruction, because it is marked out, and our name is marked out on His final coming, to play a great part. Without us, He cannot return in 1934. We play a great part in those " latter days,'' "the time of the end." The British Empire has always been a refuge for the oppressed people. There are many conditions precedent to Christ's return set out by Him and His prophets, and the main one is this, which is rather remarkable - that the Turkish Empire must disappear before 1922. There is one year to go; and what is the position to-day? The Turks - the oppressors of the Christians - have nearly disappeared. The British Fleet has been at Constantinople trying to keep order. The Turks were driven out of Palestine, by whom? The Australian Imperial Force - all the connecting links are coming to pass. **Mr. Wauchope,** of Adelaide, has written two books, which I ask honorable members to buy; one is entitled *The Troubled Nations,* and the other contains Four *Lectures on Armageddon;* and when honorable members have read them I think they will agree with what I say. Another condition precedent to Christ's return is - what? Great unrest throughout the cities of Tarshish - the British Empire - with riots, massacres, and bloodshed. What is happening to-day in Ireland? What is happening in India? What has happened in Egypt? What happened during the war? We had serious riots in certain places during the war, and there was bloodshed and unrest throughout the world, so that condition is almost fulfilled. There is a third condition, that certain earthly kings would disappear from their thrones before 1917. The Emperor of Germany has gone; the Czar of all the Russias has gone; Carl tried to get back to his throne, a few days ago, but had no chance whatever. According to the Bible, on Christ's return certain Kings have to go on bended knees and hand up their crowns ; the world is to go on for ever, with Christ as the only King in the flesh in Palestine, all other Kings then existing having to pass away. The King of England is specifically mentioned as coming in his ship, and on bended knees offering his crown to Christ. The other Kings doi not voluntarily offer their crowns, but are compelled to do so. Six or seven precedent conditions are enumerated, and one is the return of the Jews, the Chosen People, to" Palestine. What is happening to-day? Thousands of Jews have flocked back to Palestine, and, under a British-Jewish Governor, are setting up a great kingdom for Christ's return. The final scene in the setting is that in which Christ directs the British ships to proceed to all the ends of the world to collect His chosen people - the Jews - and bring them back to Palestine, where they become the greatest nation that the world has seen. A thousand years of Sabbath-like peace then starts, and under the new conditions all people work, 9.11 are on the same level, and true Democracy is restored to the world. I still see a few smiles on the faces of honorable members, but I think I can remove them by asking them what is the first act that takes place every day when this House meets? The Speaker takes the chair, and reads the Lord's Prayer, while we stand with bowed heads. That prayer includes the words, " Thy kingdom come." That kingdom is coming so far as I can see, and I am not the only one who holds that opinion. This Book tells me that the kingdom for which we pray every, day will be here in 1934, and so far as men who have followed up this prophecy can ascertain, there is not one cog of any great event which has gone out of its place in nearly 2,000 years. Whether or not the Conference at Washington will be a success we cannot at present say; but I agree with the Leader of the Opposition that there is to be no war in the Pacific. The war is to be where it always has been - in Europe and the Mediterranean. There is no reference whatever in this prophecy to a war in the Pacific. We cannot wipe out our armies and navies altogether, because in thirteen years' time we have to play a great part. I do not say that colossal' expenditure should be incurred to-day, or for the next few years, on great armies and navies, but the British Empire must, under _ Christ's direction, keep her Army and ' Navy up to a certain level in readiness for the great day. So far as we oan see, the Japanese will not invade Australia. As a matter of fact, many believe that, *Supply__* [3 November, 1921.] *(Formal).* 12409 according to the Bible, great numbers of Japanese and Chinese, on Christ's return - the millennium following Armageddon - are to go to Palestine with Christ and the Jews, because the Japanese have always been looked upon as a people who are immortal. Honorable members are aware that the Japanese love to fight, and enter battle without fear or misgiving, because they know that on their death they will go to Paradise. They look to a higher future, and, so far as we can ascertain, they will, at the millennium, go into Palestine with Christ. Honorable members may or may not believe me, but when I remind them of that Book, and of the prayer that is said here every day, they will agree that there must be something in what I am saying, because not one link of any importance is missing from the chain. Winston Churchill was warned, so I am informed, by a man who thinks as I do. that his premeditated attack on the Dardanelles would fail, because that was not the place where it was ordained that theTurks should be driven out. The Turks were to be driven out of Palestine; and I am delighted to know that it was the Australian Imperial Force that practically did it. I could go on for some hours on this subject, which is highly interesting, because it has, in my opinion, a vital bearing upon the matters in regard to which this Parliament has to legislate. {: #debate-9-s9 .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- Order ! The honorable member's time has expired. {: #debate-9-s10 .speaker-JLY} ##### Mr ANSTEY:
Bourke .- The speech to which we have just listened brings me great peace of mind. I know now that I need not trouble about the future or anything that may happen. Whatever I may do or may not do, I know it was so ordained. Therefore, I am not concerned as to what may be the result of this discussion. I know it is useless to debate even this motion, useless to discuss armaments or disarmament. Any expenditure we may incur in sending delegates to the Washington Conference is all wasted, because we know that first there is to be Armageddon, which will be followed by the millennium and the return of Christ. Whether we vote ourselves. £600 per annum or £1,000 per. annum, or whether something inspires us to vote ourselves £2,000 to-morrow, we know that we do not do these things of our own volition; we are the mere creatures of circumstance, and are predes tined to do these things for ourselves. Therefore, I am not in the least concerned in regard to the fate of this motion, or as to whether you, **Mr. Speaker,** do or do not leave the chair. But I understand the motion is made the vehicle for objection to a lecture delivered by a certain gentleman in this building last night. The honorable member who last spoke **(Mr. Marks)** said that he would like to listen to all shades of opinion. {: .speaker-KMU} ##### Mr Marks: -- But I do not like listening to the honorable member if he is throwing what is vulgarly called "chiac" at the Book to which I have referred. {: .speaker-JLY} ##### Mr ANSTEY: -- I am not. {: .speaker-KMU} ##### Mr Marks: -- If the honorable member is, let him say so, and I shall leave the chamber. {: .speaker-JLY} ##### Mr ANSTEY: -- No ; I shall come to that matter later. The honorable member has said that he would like to listen to all shades of opinion expressed within the precincts of this House. Whether he wishes it or not, his wish cannot be gratified, because only one set of opinions is permitted to be voiced in this building, and those are the opinions acceptable to the Government of the day. Therefore, it would be futile of me to expect anybody holding opinions identical with my own to be allowed to speak here. I did not listen to the lecturer who spoke in this building last night, but if I had done so I would have said to him, "You 'are an American citizen. You are a visitor to this country. You are tolerated in this building, not because you are a free and intelligent individual who holds certain views, but only because your opinions are acceptable to the Government of this country." I might also have told him, "You are an American citizen, and there are other American citizens who are permitted to come into this country. They also hold those free opinions which we claim every man born under the British flag has a right to express. Men of your own race and blood, born under the Stars and Stripes, accepting the invitation which we extend to all races, came here and dared to express their opinions. But they were not invited into the precincts of this House; they were prohibited from expressing their opinions in any part of Australia. Not only that, but they were told that they might be deported in the dead of night because their opinions were objectionable to the. Government of the day." So I might have told the lecturer last night that he was permitted to speak in free Australia only because the character of his opinions was acceptable to the Government. I take this opportunity of pointing out that the other day there returned to this country a man who was bom on Australian soil, but left these shores thirty years ago. He went to America, lived there for many years, and became an expert in oil geology. He went to Mexico, and became a big proprietor of Mexican oil properties. He was a man with money, but he held radical opinions. He was the representative of a big American company, and its agent throughout Southern America. After an absence of thirty years he returned with his son to the land of hiss birth. In one of our cities he gave a lecture, and, because he expressed radical views, he was told that he would be free to live in or travel in Australia as long as he liked, but, if he was not careful as to the views he expressed, he would be handed his passport. That instance was typical. I agree with the honorable member for Batman **(Mr. Brennan),** that of all the farces perpetrated by the nations there has been none greater than that of meeting to discuss so-called partial disarmament. What do the proposals mean? Only that the nations may agree to reduce their relative strengths. They do not mean to abolish armaments, annihilate armed forces, demolish their navies, and put an end to war. They simply say, " We will fight on a lower strength level. Let us agree upon a 9,000,000 man power basis, or a 20,000,000 man power basis." But the outstanding fact is that, no matter what basis is agreed upon, the United States of America means to have armaments that shall not be less than those of any other nation on the face of the earth. The nations may decide the basis of their fighting strength, but there are still to be armaments which will enable them to. achieve their principal object - the suppression of the industrial populations within their own boundaries. Therefore, it is a waste of time for any one to discuss these disarmament propositions, because no one intends to regard them seriously. As soon as I entered the chamber and heard what was being discussed, I was reminded of a story written by Guy de Maupassant. He was travelling in the Mediterranean in hi3 yacht, and this is how he describes the scene : - At the same moment that I leave the ship to get aboard my cockleshell, I hear the sound of firing on shore. It is the regiment at Antibes practising rifle Shooting on the sands and among the pine woods. The smoke rises in white flakes, like evaporating clouds of cotton, and I can see the red trousers of the soldiers as they run along the beach. The naval officers suddenly become interested, point their glasses landward, and their hearts beat faster at this spectacle of mimic warfare. At the mere mention of the word war I am seized with a sense of bewilderment, asthough I heard of witchcraft, of the Inquisition, of some far-distant thing, ended long ago, abominable and monstrous, against all natural law. When we talk of cannibals, we proudly smile and claim our superiority over these savages. Who are the savages, the true savages? Those who fight to eat the vanquished, or those who fight to kill, only to kill? The gallant little soldiers running about there are as surely doomed to death as the flocks of sheep driven along the road by the butcher. They will fall on some plain, with their heads split open by sabre cuts, or their chests riddled by bullets; and yet they are young men who might work, produce something, be useful. Their fathers are old and poverty stricken: their mothers, who during twenty years have loved them, adored them as only mothers can adore, may perchance hear in six months or a year- that the son, thechild, the big fellow, reared with so much care, at such an expense, and with so much love, has been cast in a hole like a dead dog, after having been ripped open by a bullet, and trampled, crushed, mangled by the rush of cavalry charges. Why have they killed her* boy, her beautiful boy, her sole hope, her pride, her life ? She cannot understand. Yes, indeed, why? War! fighting! slaughter! butchering men! And to think that now, iri our own country, with all our civilization, with the expansion of science and the height of philosophy to which the human race is supposed to have attained, we should have schools in which we teach the art of killing, or killing from afar to perfection, numbers of people at the same time; poor devils, innocent mcn, fathers of families, men of untarnished reputation. The most astounding tiling is that the people do not rise up against the governing powers. What difference is there then between monarchies and republics? And what is more astounding still, why does not society rise up bodily in rebellion at the word "war"? Ah, yes, we shall ever continue to live borne down "by the old and odious custom, the criminal prejudices, the ferocious ideas of our barbarous forefathers, for we are but animals, and we shall remain animals led only by instinct that nothing will ever change. Then he quotes the following extraordinary words of Moltke : - >War is holy and of divine institution; it is one of the sacred laws of nature; it keeps alive iri men all the great and noble sentiments, honour, disinterestedness, virtue, courage. In one word, it prevents them from falling into the most hideous materialism. Commenting upon this, de Maupassant says - >Therefore, to collect a herd of some 400,000 men, inarch clay and night without respite, to think of nothing, study nothing, learn nothing, read nothing, be of no earthly use to any one, rot with dirt, lie down in mire, live like brutes in a continual besotment, pillage towns, burn villages, ruin nations; then meeting another similar agglomeration of human flesh, rush upon it, shed lakes of blood, cover plains with pounded flesh, mingled with muddy and bloody earth, pile up heaps of slain, have arms and legs blown off, brains scattered without benefit to any one, and perish at the comer of some field, while your old parent, your wife, and children are dying of hunger : this is what is called " not falling into the most hideous materialism." I need not read any more of de Maupassant's words. My honorable friend who preceded me says, "Do not refer to' the Book in mockery " ; but how does the honorable member dare to speak in the name of the Christian faith when he flouts the doctrine of peace on earth and good will towards men, and joins with those who put the sword of war in the temple, and use that holy structure and tha name of Christ to urge the waging of war among the nations of the world ! Who desecrates the name of Christ but those who dare to usS His house for the purpose of urging the maintenance of a cruel animal materialism ? In our socalled civilization of to-day we have statesmen and churchmen doing this very thing, defiling the name of Christ in the very institutions they uphold to carry on a bloody warfare that can have only one purpose - the destruction and annihilation of all that is best on the face of the earth. {: .speaker-KMU} ##### Mr Marks: -- I do not think the honorable member would have uttered these remarks if I had had the opportunity of completing what I was about to say. I have just received a note from **Mr. Speaker** pointing out that a mistake was made by him in informing me that my time had expired. {: .speaker-JLY} ##### Mr ANSTEY: -- Well, I shall deal with the remarks the honorable member has made, and if he says I am referring to him disparagingly he is mistaken. I can assure him that no prophet has honour in his cwn country; but it is not disrespectful on my part if I tell him that his remarks can gain for him no respect in this Chamber or in the country' generally, particularly when he contends upon any authority he may put forward that the year 1934 will bring about the Millennium or Paradise. I do agree with the honorable member that there will be a war in the future. It may be in Jerusalem. But it will be the eternal war waged by the bulk of the human race against those who have become the money changers within the temple and have subjugated all the nations of the earth to the money-bag. Those gentlemen who are talking of effecting twopennyhalfpenny economies have been answered by the reply given by a Minister the other day to an honorable member on this side of ,the chamber, that Australia is called upon, " as a result of the war " - tHe Minister did not say that, but we know that it is the fact- to pay £21,000,000 per annum . to -the Jews and money changers of the world. In the hour of its need, when the country was supposed to be struggling to maintain its liberty and freedom against oppression and tyranny, it was called upon to sacrifice its manhood; and now, in the days of peace, it is again called upon to drag from the produce of the field and factory the wherewithal to pay a perpetual annual subsidy, not to German conquerors, but to victors within our own borders, and living beneath our own flag. This £21,000,000, equal to the total cost of governing this country in the days before tie war, which is to be extracted annually from the produce of the fields or the factories of Australia, is not to be spent for the purpose of education, or .the building of homes, or in order to make the lives of our citizens happier, or to. extend man's knowledge and develop his mind, thus saving him from ignorance or poverty, but it is to be handed over tomoneylenders. It is our fundamental problem to-day that these money changers in the temple are the true enemies against whom Armageddon must be fought. It is wrong to say that the enemy will be Russia or Germany, or an unmentionable nation. There is no need to hide one's head in the sand by refusing to say the word. Every one knows that if the honorable member had spoken loudly he would have said " Russia, Germany, and Japan." Soviet Russia, we are told, is to link up with the greatest military Power on the face of the earth. This alliance, he says, has been pre-ordained by God. Kaisers, Czars, or Kings, we are told, have all been swept' away by the will of God. If that be so, then why not let the will of God prevail, and that is, " Peace." And so I say, with all due respect, that I do not worry about any of the complaints we have heard today about the use of the precincts of this Blouse, because when men with other views occupy those benches opposite they will follow the improper precedent set them by the present Government, that of making use of the precincts of this building for the purpose of giving expression to the views entertained by a particular 9,lass of men. The precedent thus established will always be open, to abuse; and when other men take the place of those who are at present in power, the precincts of this building will assuredly be invaded by men who will utter views in opposition to those we hear to-day. Not the slightest harm has. been done; but the Government ought not to provide grounds for those who succeed them to use the precincts of this House for the delivery of lectures by men of any shade of opinion. There are plenty of places outside which can be used by anybody who wishes to trade his particular wares or give expression to his' particular shade of political opinion. If this practice is Followed, no one will be able to accuse the Government of partiality, or of abusing its privileges, and no opportunity will be afforded to any honorable member to speak as the honorable member for Perth has done to-day. I did not rise with, the least intention of making any objectionable remark to the honorable member for Wentworth **(Mr. Marks).** {: .speaker-KMU} ##### Mr Marks: -- You do that every time you follow me. I am watching to see that you do not do so on this occasion. {: .speaker-JLY} ##### Mr ANSTEY: -- I have only followed the honorable member once previously. {: .speaker-KMU} ##### Mr Marks: -- I was looking through *Hansard* the other day and I found another occasion on which you followed me. {: .speaker-JLY} ##### Mr ANSTEY: -- Oh, well, I shall discuss that matter with the honorable member privately. {: #debate-9-s11 .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr PROWSE:
Swan .- I heard the lecture last night, and I was very pleased to be present; in fact, I aim sorry that all honorable members were not there, because then we would have heard more uniform criticism instead of alarmist statements from those who were not in attendance. I am sorry that there was any report of the lecture, or that the whole of the lecturer's remarks were not reported, instead of tit-bits given quite apart from their context, a method of reporting which gives rise to misconstruction of the sentiments of the lecturer by those not present to hear him. This respectable American gentleman, in my opinion, spoke in a distinctly friendly way of the British race, and I am sure he said nothing offensive to the Japanese, or any other nation. He expressed his appreciation of a book recently written by Owen Wister, and seemed to envy the author, contending that he had entertained the same views at an earlier stage. However, more harm ha3 been done by taking any notice of the lecture. It would have been better if an arrangement had been made to exercise a censorship over the report of what might be regarded as matters of diplomatic or international importance. {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr Considine: -- Do you want the censorship re-established ? {: .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr PROWSE: -- No; I would have preferred a full report. I was pleased to see the honorable member for Barrier **(Mr. Considine)** at the lecture. I do not think he regarded it as offensive to the particular nation referred to, or would contend that any of the lecturer's remarks were calculated to create international difficulties. It was merely a record of certain facts, as the honorable member for Herbert **(Mr. Bamford)** has just interjected. {: .speaker-JWG} ##### Mr Fowler: -- If the statement of facts was as reported incorrect. {: .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr PROWSE: -- I have already said that tit-bits were published, apart from their context, and were thus liable to be , misinterpreted by those who were not present. *Supply* [3 November, 1921.] *(Formal).* 12413 {: #debate-9-s12 .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON:
Maribymong -- I rise in the fear that **Mr. Speaker** and **Mr. President** may regard the objections taken by the honorable member for Perth **(Mr. Fowler),** and others, as an indication of the feeling of honorable members generally that no one should be permitted to give in the Senate club-room, or the Queen's Hall, information which it is absolutely necessary honorable members should have. We have heard many informative lectures given in the precincts of the House. {: .speaker-JWG} ##### Mr Fowler: -- We got on very well for many years without these lectures. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- Honorable members greatly benefit by the information they derive from these instructive lectures, and I hope no embargo will be placed upon them. I know that a certain construction might be placed on the lecturer's remarks' last night. Because the lecture was given under the patronage of members of both Houses it might possibly be construed that the auditors were in alsolute agreement with every sentiment uttered by the lecturer. {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr Considine: -- There is not much danger of that. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- The lecturer gave chapter and verse in the history of the various countries of the world in support of the sentiments to which he gave expression. I do not think that any man who is acquainted with history will be prepared to dispute the lecturer's facts. I know nothing of his antecedents, but I understand that he is a professor of one of the American universities. I admire him for his outspokenness. By way of preamble he told his audience that what he was about to say that evening he had said, in even more emphatic language, on the platforms of his own country during the war. If we had had more plain speaking during the war the world would have been the better for it. Many of the evils from which the nations are suffering to-day have been evolved from their secret diplomacy. What we need is more plain speaking and the laying of the cards of every nation on the table. Even in this Parliament we deny ourselves the right to discuss subjects that ought to be discussed by us, and which are dealt with very freely in all the great magazines. In many of the leading American magazines to be found in the Parliamentary Library there appear from time to time articles translated from the Japanese as well as by British and American writers, in which questions of this character are discussed in the clearest and most emphatic language. {: .speaker-JWG} ##### Mr Fowler: -- I do not object to that. I merely" object to this building being used for such a purpose. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- I do not wish to claim special privileges for another branch of the Legislature, but we may protest until doomsday, although without effect in regard to meetings held in rooms in that part of this building which is under the control of the President of the Senate. We look to our Presiding Officer to protect our interests in respect of the use of rooms on this side of the building; but the rooms on the Senate side are controlled absolutely by the President and his officials. When the lecturer complained of the Japanese becoming the possessors of land in and about California, I had the temerity to interject, " Why were American citizens prepared to sell land to them?" I thought that he was making a palpably weak statement in regard to some of the actions of his countrymen, and felt impelled to interject. {: .speaker-JWG} ##### Mr Fowler: -- Every honorable member who has attempted to defend the lecturer this afternoon has deprecated some part of his speech. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- No matter how well equipped a lecturer may be, his utterances are not likely to meet with absolute approval when he is lecturing before a somewhat critical and mixed audience. I have gained much information by listening to lectures as well as viewing picture films screened in the Queen's Hall, and I hope that the objection raised by the honorable member for Perth **(Mr. Fowler)** to what he calls the intrusion of certain individuals into the parliamentary buildings will not be regarded by you, **Mr. Speaker,** as representing the unanimous view of honorable members. I conclude by expressing my appreciation of the lecturer's readiness to call a spade a spade. In a recent edition of the *Atlantic Monthly* there appeared an article in which it was pointed out that much of the difficulty between the United States of America and Japan to-day was due to the fact that Japan was looking at certain aspects of affairs from the purely Japanese stand-point, while the United States of America was looking at them from .the point of view of the United States of America alone. The writer suggested that what was essential to secure a better feeling between the nations was not the passing of congratulatory cable messages between the leaders of the respective peoples, but a round table conference at which the difficulties should be fully and freely discussed. Unlike some honorable members, I am not pessimistic with regard to the outcome of the Washington Conference. I regard it as likely to prove one of the first steps towards that peace for which the world is looking. If it should prove to be so, then God speed that step, however small it may be. May it be but the first of many steps that will be taken, until, whether it be in accordance with prophecy or not, this world is clothed with the garment of enduring peace. Let this Parliament and this country do everything possible to hurry on so magnificent an achievement. {: #debate-9-s13 .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr CONSIDINE:
Barrier .- I was one of those who last night wandered round to the other side of this building in order to hear an American lecturer point out the great advantages that would accrue from an Anglo-American understanding, and I was very much interested in his remarks. Although I dare say I disagreed with the lecturer's remarks to a greater, extent than did any one else in the room, I certainly would not support the placing of any restriction on the giving of lectures of a similar character in this building. It would be a good thing if honorable members heard more lectures of the kind. I do not suggest that every lecture delivered in the parliamentary buildings should be of the particular type of that which we heard last night, because I also plead guilty to the charge made by the honorable member for Perth **(Mr. Fowler)** that every honorable member disagreed with one part or another of his lecture. As a matter of fact, I disagreed with practically everything the lecturer said. We should not refuse, however, to listen to a man merely because we differ from the views expressed by him. I always believe in giving " the other fellow " a hearing. I was particularly anxious to hear this gentleman, because I wished to know what sort of a propagandist the Yankee "boodleiers" had sent out here. The burden of Professor Herbsman's lecture was the necessity of doing away with the AngloJapanese alliance. The only thing he omitted to say with regard to the good deeds which Britain had done for the United States was that an Englishman had discovered America. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- But Columbus was not a John Bull. . {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr CONSIDINE: -- He was not, and the only thing which the lecturer did not claim on behalf of the British Empire was that a " John Bull" had discovered America. {: .speaker-KDZ} ##### Mr Jowett: -- The honorable member will rectify that omission. {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr CONSIDINE: -- I fail to see how I could. I think the honorable member has been rather too much impressed by the speech delivered by the honorable member for Wentworth **(Mr. Marks),** and attributes to me greater powers than I possess. The lecturer last evening was at great pains to point out the conditions prevailing in the United States of America.. He touched on the racial problem, and being a good Republican, and a, good, party "man, attributed to President Wilson and the Democratic party all the misfortunes that occurred prior to the United States-entering the' war. It waa due to the Democratic party, he said, that the United States of America did not come into the war as early as she might have done. He told us that he made no charges. He simply stated facts, leaving his hearers to draw their- own conclusions'. He went on to tell us of the racial problem in the United States of America, and how they had educated the negroes up to keeping their place by shooting them. {: .speaker-JWG} ##### Mr Fowler: -- Did he approve of that? {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr CONSIDINE: -- No; he deprecated race riots, and at the close of his lecture told us that he believed- in the Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Jesus Christ, but I do not think he included the negro in that brotherhood. In order to complete his statement that he believed in the Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Jesus Christ, he should have added that he believed also in the supremacy of the Anglo-American Navies. That might well have been his closing statement, because it was the burden of his address. His lecture, .put shortly, was a plea for what he described *Supply* [3Nevember, 1921.] *(Formal).* 12415 as an Anglo-American trusteeship to control the world in the interests of civilization, which, being interpreted in plain Australian, means an Anglo-American Trust to run the universe. That, at all events, is what I gathered to be his meaning. It was quite obvious that the lecturer was here to indulge in a bit of special pleading - that he was out to put. up a case against the Japanese nation. He pointed out that there were 125,000 Japanese in the United States of America, and that 110,000,000 Americans were shaking in their shoes because of the presence of those 125,000 Japanese in their country. The Japanese were brought to the Pacific Coast, he stated, as cheap labour. The good capitalists in that part of the United States of America took advantage of this cheap labour and did away with white labour. When the white labour was driven out the Japanese, according to the lecturer, raised the price of their labour until the land-owners were driven off, and the J apanese took up their holdings. That seems to me to savour of' poetic justice. White citizens of the United States of America wanted cheap labour. It did " not matter to them whether it was coloured or white, as long as it was cheap; andas the result of that policy they are face to face with a problem like that resulting from the taking of negroes in chains into the United States of America. The capitalist exploited that negro labour, with the result that there are 15,000,000 negroes there today, and a big racial problem dealt with. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr Riley: -- Many of the sugar- growers of Queensland wanted to do the same thing hem. {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr CONSIDINE: -- And some of them are now advocates of the policy of a White Australia. The lecturer toldus that the ideas which had been inculcated in the minds of the American people with regard to the conflict between Great Britain and the American Colonies in the early days were being remodelled. He told us that neither the British Prime Minister nor the British people of that day were responsible for the American War of Independence. He attributed the blame to GeorgeIII., who was a lunatic. All that we have been told with regard to the British Parliament being responsible for the discrimination that took place in the treatment of the AmericanColonies is, according to the lecturer, wrong. History is being revised in the United States of America because the economic interests of Great Britain and the United States of America are supposed to be marching in line at the present time. {: .speaker-KDZ} ##### Mr Jowett: -- Did the lecturer say that? {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr CONSIDINE: -- Not in so many words, but he did say that the economic factor was predominant. He went on to' claim that one of the all-important questions was that of the open-door policy in China. He commented upon the fact that Korea, Saghalien, Siberia, and other places had been mopped up by the Japanese; but he did not mention that Hayti, Cuba, the Philippines and other Islands had been mopped up by the Yankee Imperialists. Republican America became an Imperial Power after the war with Spain. It was then that the American capitalist started his exploitations. America went to liberate Cuba, and now, because of the sugar, tobacco, and other interests, Cuba and San Domingo, Porto Rico, and other places are enjoying the blessings of civilization, while the American Eagle screams Yankee Doodle over them. When the Americans wanted to make the Panama Canal, they fixed up a revolution in Colombia, and broke off the Republic of Panama. A Secretary of State in the Roosevelt Administration then in power telegraphed to the American representative in Panama asking if it were true that the revolution had. broken out, and the reply came, " No; it is not expected until this afternoon." That telegram is on record. At that time it took ten. days for the mail to go from Washington to Panama, and ten days after the revolution there arrived in Panama the official recognition by the United States of America of the new Republican Governmentof Panama. American interests and the blessings of civilization have been carried in the good old-fashioned way to the islands of the Pacific. **Senator Lodge** said, when America annexed the Philippines, that those islands were stepping stones to China; and on another occasion he stated in Congress that America was cub for the economic supremacy of the world. President Harding said the other day, that " you cannot sell unless you also buy,. 12416 *Supply* [REPRESENTATIVES.] *(Formal).* and that you cannot sell successfully unless you carry," and when you carry you must have a huge mercantile marine. Consequently, the American mercantile marine, which in 1914 was only 1,400,000 tons, has. now jumped to 12,500,000 tons, or two- thirds of the tonnage of the British mercantile marine. Admiral Mahan, the great naval authority, writing about 1883, said that wherever there was a developing mercantile marine, sufficient interests would arise to demand a powerful navy to protect it. That is now occurring in the United States of America. That country spent £130,000,000 last year on her Navy, and this year is spending £134,000,000 an it. The gentleman who lectured last night said, " They tell you that we are building against Great Britain. Do not believe it. Where is the Navy concentrated ? Three-fourths of it is concentrated in the Pacific." Of course, it is concentrated in the Pacific, because it is there that the bone of contention lies. The European markets having failed them, Great Britain, the United States of America, and Japan are competing for the markets of' China. Recently the Americans passed their China Trading Act, and what is the Chinese consortium but another arrangement for the exploitation of China ? What are among the proposals that are being mooted in connexion with the Washington Conference? An International Syndicate for the exploiting of China. If that syndicate is satisfactory to the American Imperialists, the Washington Conference will be labelled a huge success, but if it is not, they want to break down the Japanese alliance because it stands in the way of the American exploitation of China. That was the burden of the remarks of the lecturer last evening, though he was careful to mention that the Conference at Washington was not to bring about disarmament, but to secure the limitation of armaments. He asked, " How can we disarm ? Look at Soviet Russia with 1,000,000 trained troops ready to overwhelm Europe." {: .speaker-KDZ} ##### Mr Jowett: -- Does the honorable memberimagine that this attack on the United States of America is calculated to help the peace of the world? {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr CONSIDINE: -- I am attacking, not the United States of America, but the exploiters of that country. {: .speaker-KDZ} ##### Mr Jowett: -- The honorable member has attacked the Governments of the United States of America, past and present, and the people of that country. {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr CONSIDINE: -- I do not attack, and never have attacked,, the people of any country.' I attack Governments because the Governments of the United States of America, Great Britain, and other capitalist countries are merely the executive committees of their exploiting interests. {: .speaker-KMW} ##### Mr Marr: -- They are elected? by the people. {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr CONSIDINE: -- Sometimes; but the honorable member knows how elections are conducted in the United States of America. Of course, everything is free and above board, and American citizens are allowed to vote as they please. He knows that in the southern States the negro citizen is not allowed to vote. {: .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- The people of our Northern Territory are not allowed to vote. {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr CONSIDINE: -- The Northern Territory is a bit nearer home than the United States of America. I suppose the honorable member will want to secure for the people of the Territory the blessings and benefits of Democracy; but, personally, I am not so enamoured of those benefits as to lose sleep because those persons Have no votes. {: .speaker-KMW} ##### Mr Marr: -- The people do not have votes in Bolshevik Russia. {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr CONSIDINE: -- Yes, they do. {: .speaker-KDZ} ##### Mr Jowett: -- Will the honorable member tell us more about Russia? {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr CONSIDINE: -The honorable member can get all the information he requires by making inquiries in the library. {: .speaker-KMW} ##### Mr MARR:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT; UAP from 1931 -- Russia to-day has the biggest standing army in the world. {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr CONSIDINE: -- The lecturer told us that last night, and made the point that we could not disarm because of the great military force of Soviet Russia. The honorable member for Balaclava **(Mr. Watt)** spoke of it the other day as the greatest force, active and potential, in the world at the present time. The lecturer said last night that this force threatened to. overwhelm Europe. He did not toll us that the reason for the existence of the Red Army in Soviet Russia is that Great Britain,France, the United States of America, Germany, and' all the other capitalistic nations of the world tried to overwhelm, the . Russian people's republic. When the Treaty of *Supply* [3 November, 1921.] *(Formal).* 12417 Brest-Litovsk was signed, we heard of the " cowardly Russians who would not fight," yet to-day the same men are spoken of as the "Red Menace." The British joined with the Germans in trying to crush out of existence the Russian Soviet Republic, and to-day the Soviet workers can stand against all the forces that are brought against them. Europe" is leagued against Russia, much as she was leagued -against France at the time of the French Revolution, and that has developed in Russia, as it developed in France, a force of which the other nations are afraid. We heard nothing about disarmament when Allied Forces were invading Russia, but now that the people of Russia have an army we want them to disarm. {: .speaker-KMW} ##### Mr Marr: -- Russia has a force that is starving its population. {: #debate-9-s14 .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr CONSIDINE: -- That is not so, and the cablegrams are now saying that the talk about famine conditions in Russia is gross exaggeration, the season there having been no worse than the average Russian season. {: .speaker-KMW} ##### Mr Marr: -- Then why are the Russians appealing to the world for help to feed their population? {: #debate-9-s15 .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- The honorable member is disorderly in interjecting from the Treasury bench. {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr CONSIDINE: -- Although the lecturer's remarks were at variance with my views, they interested me for the reasons I have stated. I wished to know what sort of propagandist American interests had sent out here, and I was interested in hearing the putting forward of their views. I would like nothing better than for this gentleman to go through the land addressing huge audiences; nothing would suit me bettor. When a man tells you that American history has to be rewritten to get the correct perspective- {: .speaker-KDZ} ##### Mr Jowett: -- The honorable member himself has been re-writing it to-day. {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr CONSIDINE: -- Well, I have not attempted to emulate the honorable member for Wentworth **(Mr. Marks)** in prophesying the future. It is remarkable that lecturers should be sent from the other side of the world to toll us that it is to our interest to patch up some sort of working agreement with America for the exploitation of China, that being spoken of as making for the advancement of civilization. We are told that the Americans and the British have to combine. For what? To raise the new sign, Uncle Sam and John Bull Unlimited "? In spite of the remarks of the lecturer last evening, and the good things he said about the British Empire, in spite of all his interpretation of American history, making it to appear that the Americans could not do anything except under ' British tutelage - in spite of all that I believe that the lecturer's remarks last night were on a par with similar lectures delivered prior to 1914. There are now being formed in Australia Anglo-American Friendship Leagues, and we are told of the " great ties of blood and kinship " between the two branches of the Anglo-Saxon race. {: .speaker-KDZ} ##### Mr Jowett: -- Is that not better than forming Anglo-American enmity leagues? {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr CONSIDINE: -- Enmity leagues will not be formed until the time is ripe, and then the honorable member will be found listening just as enthusiastically as he listened last night to the gentleman from America, when some other orator denounces all things that happen in America, and produces negro lynchings and all the paraphernalia that is used to work up the national hatred and prejudice necessary to whip the people into war. {: .speaker-KDZ} ##### Mr Jowett: -- Has the honorable member also joined the prophets ? {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr CONSIDINE: -- No ; I am merely drawing deductions from the past. Prior to the war, orators and newspapers talked about the two great Teutonic nations of Germany and Britain, and of " ties of kinship," and all the rest of the jargon. This, of course, was prior to the dash of interests; and yet to-day it is sought to make the people believe in the same power of kinship and blood in the. prevention of war to-day. To-day the American Imperialist is out in his own interests;' what he desires is an end of the Anglo- J apanese alliance, and that is what our friend, the lecturer, was playing for last evening. The lecturer threw bouquets to Lord Northcliffe, whom he described as a great statesman, and commended him for his statement atHonolulu. If Lord Northcliffe previously had any claim to be a statesman, that speech ought to destroy that claim for ever. In an interview at Honolulu, when he was asked what Great Britain would do in the event of war between Japan and the United States of America Lord Northcliffe said, according to the lecturer, that, in his opinion, 12418. *Supply* [REPRESENTATIVES.] *(Formal).* Great Britain would be' found fighting side by side with the Americans. Lord Northcliffe may or may not have made that statement, but if he did he was very foolish. {: .speaker-KDZ} ##### Mr Jowett: -- Are not all such remarks in public foolish? {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr CONSIDINE: -- Not all; the real facts should be dragged into the light of day, so that the people of Australia may see what they are. {: .speaker-KDZ} ##### Mr Jowett: -- They are notfacts, but opinions. {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr CONSIDINE: -- They are facts we cannot get away from. What is the "Pacific problem" *1* We are told by statesmen to-day that it is impossible to hold a Disarmament Conference unless previously the Pacific problem is discussed. There are three dominant nations now competing for the market in China, the bottom having fallen out of the European market. There are 6,000,000' unemployed in the United States of America, because American manufactures cannot be sold in Europe, and a similar state of things prevail in England. China is the great potential market of the world, and Japan has marched in with all her military paraphernalia and sat down. According to the American lecturer, the Japanese are monopolising that market for themselves, and the American Government, on the part of the American people, is demanding the " open door.' Why ? Because, despite the proximity of Japan to the market, the American capitalist can send his goods across the seas and undersell the Japanese capitalist, if there be the " open door." {: .speaker-KDZ} ##### Mr Jowett: -- Is the " open door " not fair play to all ? {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr CONSIDINE: -- It all dependson the point of view, and I should like to know that of Japan. I do not draw any distinction between the conflicting groups - I take no sides - but simply point out what the position is. China, and Asia generally, to-day is marked off into spheres of interest - one a British sphere and the other a Japanese sphere - and America is trying to get in. America has forced her way into the financial consortium, and the American capitalist declares that he does not want war if he can get what he wants without it, but the object is to get at the undeveloped resources of China. {: .speaker-KDZ} ##### Mr Jowett: -- By the "open door" - that is fair play for. all. {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr CONSIDINE: -- I am not concerned about that, except that such circumstances create the Pacific problem. All this talk about Japanese invasion and so forth is so much "bunkum." It is said that the Japanese ' are a menace to this country ; and yet wo are told that we must have an alliance with Japan. The lecturer last night talked about the United States of America growing up under the shelter of the British Navy; but what is responsible for the so-called Japanese "menace"? {: .speaker-KDZ} ##### Mr Jowett: -- The Japanese Navy. {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr CONSIDINE: -- No ; it is the Anglo-Japanese alliance which has made Japan powerful to-day. That alliance was signed as a weapon against Russia, and it was renewed against Germany ; but to-day where is the necessity for such an alliance? We are told that the British Navy is supreme - that it isthe guardian of Australia. Is the menace from the Japanese Navy ? If so, why insist on an alliance ? ' Are we to travel along the same road as the Romans, and make alliances with the " barbarians." ? {: .speaker-KDZ} ##### Mr Jowett: -- Apart from this House, where arc the barbarians? {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr CONSIDINE: -- The honorable member is behind the scenes, and knows that the present position is no joke; but the people outside do not know, and it is in their interests I am speaking. If there was a menace from Japan, Great Britain, as the guardian of this country, would be interested inremoving it. The PrimeMinister **(Mr. Hughes)** is a great exponent of the White Australia policy. {: .speaker-KYD} ##### Mr Poynton: -- He stands for that policy. {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr CONSIDINE: -- He also stands for the Anglo- Japanese alliance; just before he left for England he pleaded with the House to support this alliance as necessary on account of the menace there was to Australia. In London, however, when the current of opinion of the Dominion representatives was realized, it was suddenly discovered that there was no necessity for any discussion, because the alliance, like the brook, goes on for ever. If there was no clashing of interests between the United States of America group of exploiters as against Japan, on the one side, and against *Supply* [3 November, 19211] . *(Formal).* 12419 British interests on the other, why is all this navy building going on? Why is there this claim that America must nave a navy second to none - a claim supported by both ex-President Wilson and President Harding? Why does Great Britain continueher navy building ? These warships are not built to look at, but to settle which nation is to have possession of the great markets of the East. The current magazines and 'reviews show this' great conflict of interests in regard to steel, oil, coal, and finance generally. American coal is underselling British in Europe, and German and American capitalists are cornering the market in steel as against Great Britain: Can any one say that, when these interests really clash, brotherhood and friendship will count? What did brotherhood and ' friendship count for in the American civil war, when the conflicting forces were all of one nation ? I do not wish to see war, though the honorable member for Grampians' **(Mr. Jowett)** seemed to be under the impression that I should like to encourage it. I am merely taking this opportunity to point out to the great masses of the workers that, no matter whose interests may be served, their interests can never be served by war. It is to the interests of the workers to see this Anglo- Japanese alliance " scrapped," with any other arrangement likely to lead toconflict.We should have only one interest, and that is to wipe out allthat makes for war. {: .speaker-KYD} ##### Mr Poynton: -- Will you promise that, if all the other interests are wiped out, and there Is a J apanese invasion of Australia, you will fight? {: #debate-9-s16 .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr CONSIDINE: -- I cannot promise an impossibility. The honorable member does not seem to see the contradiction involved in his question. My claim is that these conflicting interests make war, and yet I am asked whether, in the case of all these causes being wiped out, I shall fight against the Japanese if they invade this country. {: .speaker-KYD} ##### Mr Poynton: -- Will the honorable member fight against them when they do come here? {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr CONSIDINE: -- That will depend on the circumstances. {: .speaker-JWG} ##### Mr fowler: -- It is not right to ask a question which postulates such a possibility. {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr CONSIDINE: -- I have no wish to burke the question. . I answer the Minister frankly that I have never drawn the colour line, and never will. Working men of any colour and any nation are equal so far as I am concerned. But if the Japanese, British, or any others came here to try to take this country from the working men of Australia, they will find me alongside the Australian working men in defending the country. {: .speaker-KYD} ##### Mr Poynton: -- The honorable member will fight under those conditions? {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr CONSIDINE: -- When Australia belongs to the workers of Australia, and not before. {: #debate-9-s17 .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 .- I regret that any question has been raised regarding the propriety of the lecture that was delivered in this building last night. A professor of anAmerican university, a cultured gentleman and a splendid speaker, honoured this Parliament by giving to those who wished to listen to him an opportunity to hear his views upon the subject of bringing about a closer friendship between the two great peoples that speak the English language. I can understand the attitude of the honorable memberwho has just preceded me **(Mr. Considine),** but honorable members will recall that in his opening remarks he was fair and just. If he saw reason to criticise, his criticism was different from that which fell from the lips of other honorable members. The gentleman who lectured to us last night is the representative of the great Chatauqua system in America, one of the greatest educational systems in the world. To every little town and hamlet in the United States of America speakers on scientific and other questions are apportioned by this organization. I listened to the lecturer last night, and did not hear him make one historical inaccuracy, but I do remember that he thanked the British Navy for the assistance it had given to the people of the United States of America. I' urge honorable members to read the protocol of that unholy alliance between the abominable kings and 'emperors of Europe who desired to suppress, not. only Republicanism, but Liberalism. To whatever nation we belong, or whatever language we speak, we must thank the British Navy for having enabled the American people to control the American continent from north to south. America has blazed the path of. international 12420 *Supply* [REPRESENTATIVES.] *(Formal).* friendship as no other nation has done. I recall to the minds of honorable members the monument erected by the Japanese in the Bay of Yokohama. A man named Richardson was killed. Immediately the British Consul called the American; French, and Butch Consuls together, and they made a hurried demand on the Japanese for an indemnity. By a system of loans the Japanese were able to pay the sum which was demanded, but when later investigation showed that Richardson was such a scoundrel as to deserve the fate that befel him, America handed back the whole of the indemnity, and with it Japan erected in the Bay of Yokohama a lighthouse or tower to welcome visitors to Japan. America also showed a splendid example in handing back the indemnity paid by China in connexion with the so-called Boxer rebellion.Again, the people of the United States of America have fed the starving ones of other lands as no other nation has done. But- the greatest monument to her character is the 3,000 miles of frontier between the United States and Canada without a gun or a soldier to protect it. If America stretches out the hand of friendship to Australia, we should grasp it. Some honorable members have said that if a war occurred between Japan and America, involving the British Empire, they would not fight against the American people. Neither would I. I am past the age limit, and was rejected when I volunteered for service in the late war ; but still every man can do a little in the time of need. In a little pamphlet I published in 1905 I expressed these sentiments, which seem appropriate to the question we are discussing to-day: - >So far as we in Australia are directly concerned,I sea, first of all, and more important than all, though ultimately worthless unless knit with all, one effective ally, one union that will beget a confident hope, or, rather, a sure trust in any future, and that is with the United States of America. The road thither may be very distasteful to much that is aggressively rather than self-sacrilicingly British; b ut even if, with cap in hand, it were better thither, and with that purpose than ultimately, with sackcloth on our loins and ashes on our heads, to put our neck beneath the heel of the Eastern conqueror. That was my opinion then, and I glory in the idea that is responsible for the Conference in Washington to try to put an end to war. Inthe issue of *Stead's* *Review* of 15th October, 1921, statistics were published to show that in the late war ' 3,340,000 French, 6,300,000 Germans, and 5,800,000 Austria-Hungarians lost their lives, while upwards of 35,000,000 deaths occurred in Poland and Russia as a direct or indirect result of the war. I have never advocated war, because behind every soldier I have seen the women and children, who suffer most. I loathe the very idea of war, and cannot understand why the good God permits it. I sometimes become disgusted with preachers who. call themselves . Christian ministers when they are advocating the bloody course of war. So, if America and Great Britain, those two great English-speaking nations, will shake hands and agree to be friends, such an understanding will do more than any other combination of nations to insure the peace of the world. I believe in the future. I believe that the human being is not such a fool as to desire to continually massacre and blow into perdition his fellow beings. If we are fashioned in God's likeness, surely the destruction of each other is the worst thing we can do. I thank Professor Herbsman for his discourse last night, and I would be glad to hear him repeat it in the Melbourne Town Hall Speaking with some knowledge of university professors, I say that of all professors I have heard he is the finest orator. He speaks quickly, but every word is distinctly uttered, although his ascent sometimes is a little strange to Australian ears. With the tribute he paid to the British Navy, any student of history will agree, and the splendid words of Tennyson with which he concluded his speech must have appealed to every listener. If you, **Mr. Speaker,** should on any future occasion grant the use of a room in this building for a lecture that will not interfere with our parliamentary work, I shall be glad to attend it, no matter how I may disagree with the opinions that are enunciated. Not that I disagreed with any idea promulgated by the lecturer last night for the purpose of strengthening the 'bonds of friendship between America and Great Britain. Honorable members may recall the words of Admiral Sperry, who, when some New Zealanders said they feared the danger from the North, replied, "You need never be afraid so long as the Stars and Stripes float above the seas." If it should *Customs Tariff* [3 November, 1921.] *Bill.* 12421 be within your power, **Mr. Speaker,** in conjunction with the President of another place, to 'provide honorable members with other educational lectures, do so, because honorable members often need information on questions that are foreign to their knowledge. No one could have been injured by listening to the lecture delivered last night, and I hope we shall have more deliverances of the same calibre. Question resolved in the negative. {: .page-start } page 12421 {:#debate-10} ### CUSTOMS TARIFF BILL *In Committee* (Consideration of Sen ate's requests, resumed from 2nd November, *vide* page 12351) : Item 161- >Agricultural, horticultural, and viticultural machinery and implements, n.e.i. ; including cane loaders, cane unloaders, and cane harvesters; ... ad vol., British, 22½per cent. ; intermediate, 30 per cent. ; general, 35 per cent. > > *Senate's Request.* - British, 15 per cent. ; intermediate, 25 per cent.; general, 30 per cent. Upon which **Mr. Greene** had moved - >That the requested amendment be not made. {: #debate-10-s0 .speaker-JOS} ##### Mr BELL:
Darwin .- Last night I expressed regret that milking machines were included in the group under this item, because it is my desire that they should be dealt with separately. When the Tariff was before this Committee on the previous occasion the Minister **(Mr. Greene)** promised to give further consideration to the duties on milking machines before the Tariff went to another place, and I ask him now if there is any reason why he cannot give special consideration to this class of machinery? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The only reason is that the machines are being made in Australia by three separate manufacturers. {: .speaker-JOS} ##### Mr BELL: -- Milking machines might be dealt with separately from the others included in this group. Some of this machinery can be manufactured in Australia more or less satisfactorily, but to provide that all the machines thus grouped should bear the same amount of protection does not appear to bo practical or satisfactory. Inasmuch as these machines are grouped in this item with other agricultural machinery, the only course open to me is to ask that the Senate's requested amendment to lower the duty applying to the whole item be made. I am particularly anxious that milking machines should be admitted at as low a rate as possible, while allowing a reasonable protection for the manufacturers of the machines, if they are made in Australia. My information is that only parts of them are made here, and the assembling of parts made elsewhere is not the local manufacture of the whole article. My information is thatcertainly the engines are imported. However, it is an important matter to ascertain whether the whole of a milking machine is manufactured in Australia. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I find from my officers that there are thirteen firms in Australia making milking machines, and twenty engaged in the manufacture of parts. {: .speaker-JOS} ##### Mr BELL: -- Does the Minister say that thirteen manufacturers are making absolutely every part of a milking machine ? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Some firms are making parts, and some are making machines. If there are some parts that cannot be made in Australia they will be admitted free of duty. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- For the most part the milking machine is an Australian invention. {: .speaker-JOS} ##### Mr BELL: -- I did not know that. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- The Lawrence Kennedy machine, which was one of the first put on the market, is, I understand, an Australian invention. {: .speaker-JOS} ##### Mr BELL: -- If the whole machine is made in Australia some protection is necessary. {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr Austin Chapman: -- Has not the Senate offered some protection? {: .speaker-JOS} ##### Mr BELL: -- Yes ; and I urge that the Senate's request be acceded to. It is a very difficult matter, in fact, it is almost impossible, for those engaged in the dairying industry to get manual labour, unless wages are paid which the industrycannot stand, and the production of butter depends very largely upon family effort. One of the difficulties I want to overcome is the necessity for employing child labour. I have not a word to say against those people who find it necessary to employ children of tender years at milking cows, because some or the finest people in Australia have been engaged in the industry in the past, and are still engaged in it, and if it were not 12422 *Customs Tariff* [REPRESENTATIVES.] *Bill.* for the women and children who are milking cows to-day there would be a great shortage of butter, and the industry would be practically wiped out. As a matter of fact, it would be wiped out to a considerable extentbut for the use of machinery, and that is where I come to the point at issue. If milking machines can be got at a reasonable price they will be installed in the very near future in the majority of our dairies. I know from a close association with dairymen that the machine of to-day is regarded as a success. Some years ago it was not so regarded, and many machines that were installed were afterwards abandoned for various reasons, but in Tasmania, where I reside, there is a small butter factory, with an output of152 tons last year, which is surrounded by a district in which thirty- three dairymen have installed these machines. I know also that, in other Tasmanian districts, people engaged in the industry are installing these milking machines, and I want them to get them at a price which will enable the smaller dairymen to buy them, thereby overcoming the difficulty of securing suitable labour, and perhaps preventing the use of child labour. The arguments which I am now using apply also in a lesser degree to all classes of machinery' covered by the item. It is unnecessary for me to repeat what was said last night - that we. should not, for the sake of bolstering up one industry do something detrimental to others equally, if not more, important. {: .speaker-JNV} ##### Mr Bamford: -- Are you asking that milking machines should be admitted free? {: .speaker-JOS} ##### Mr BELL: -- No. We cannot get them free, because they are included in the group of agricultural machinery upon which the Senate has asked us to reduce the duty. The Minister does not see fit to accede to the Senate's request, but if the Committee do so, they will only be doing justice to an industry in which the people engaged in it will have to face lower values for their produce. Butter is practically a drug on the market today. Its wholesale price is somewhere in the vicinity of1s. per lb., and those who are marketing it are not quite sure that they can afford to pay even that amount to the producer because of the uncer tainty of the British market. Dairymen are confronted with serious difficulties. It is impossible to pay high wages and huge profits to those engaged in the manufacture of machinery at the expense of the users of the particular articles. I know that, without the support of the Minister, we have no possible chance of having the Senate's request acceded to, but I seriously appeal to him to give every consideration to the aspect of the question which I have just put before him. {: #debate-10-s1 .speaker-JNV} ##### Mr BAMFORD:
Herbert .- One would think that honorable members were asking for the admission of milking machines free of duty, whereas they are merely splitting straws as to whether the item shall be admitted under the general Tariff at 30 per cent. or 35 per cent. I do not know the prices of American machines, but there are many articles mentioned in this item which have a very long life. For instance, the life of a garden roller has no limit, but the average life of an ordinary piece of machinery is ten years. If an article costs £100, and the difference in the duty is £5, it represents not more than 10s. per annum over the whole period. Yet we have been talking all yesterday and to-day about such a trifle as this. {: .speaker-KFC} ##### Mr Fleming: -- How many harvesters will last for ten years? {: .speaker-JNV} ##### Mr BAMFORD: -- I am told on credible authority that there are machines that will last for fifteen years, and still be serviceable. The price of the article is not affected to any extent by this duty. In regard to repairs, it does not matter whether the machine is manufactured locally or imported. They will only be a nominal sum. We ought not to be spending so much time over such trifles. {: .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr Prowse: -- Yes, merely a trifle of £30,000,000 last year. {: .speaker-JNV} ##### Mr BAMFORD: -- What ! In taxation? {: .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr Prowse: -- In Customs duty paid. {: .speaker-JNV} ##### Mr BAMFORD: -- The honorable member is talking about the duty paid on whisky and other things, and not about the revenue collected on this item. A lot of time has been absolutely wasted in discussing what, after all, is merely a trifle. The increase involved is only slight. {: .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr Prowse: -- £30,000,000 was collected last year by way of Customs duties. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- If it is not raised by indirect taxation, it will have to be raised by direct taxation. {: .speaker-JNV} ##### Mr BAMFORD: -- I suggest to honorable members of the Country party that their opposition to the Minister's-proposal should De reduced, if not entirely withdrawn. I have always been a consistent Protectionist, and was the first man in this House to declare himself a Protectionist. The only Free Trade vote I gave in connexion with the first Federal Tariff was on rat traps, and 1 have since been sorry for it. Let us get to a vote. We' have only a few weeks in which to deal with a number of important matters before the Christmas vacation. We all want to get home before Christmas, but unless the Minister applies the "gag," I am afraid we shall not be able to do so. {: #debate-10-s2 .speaker-K4M} ##### Mr ROBERT COOK:
INDI, VICTORIA · VFU; CP from 1920 -- The honorable member for Herbert **(Mr. Bamford)** has urged that we should proceed without delay to a vote. Our party will' agree to go to a division immediately if the Minister will accept the Senate's request. Member after member has said that this is only a small matter, that the duty in respect of certain implements in the item amounts to only 5s., 10s., fi, £5, or £10. In the case of a reaper and binder, however, it amounts to 45 per cent., and involves in the aggregate some millions of pounds. All the implements covered by this item are most necessary to our primary producers. The use of milking machines, for instance, should be encouraged to the fullest extent. I gave evidence before a certain Commission some tune ago as to the cost of producing butter, and although I was cross-examined for a couple of days I made it abundantly clear, in the opinion of those who heard my evidence, thai; it cost some five or six years ago from 2s. 4d. to 2s. 6d. a lb. to produce butter. The cost to-day is even greater. If dairymen and their families who are employed in the industry were subject to the awards of Wages Boards and Arbitration Counts - if they received time and a half rates for overtime and double rates for Sunday work - what would be the cost of production? The wholesale selling price to-day is ls. 2d. per lb., and I am afraid that there will be a still further drop. Dairying is a. sweated industry, and is kept going mainly by the farmers' children. The Minister has read a lot about child slavery, and I suggest to him that he has a chance of relieving Australia of a little of that slavery by freeing a machine that will help to reduce the work cif the dairyman. Dairy far*mers should be given an opportunity to purchase milking machines at the most reasonable price. By means of such a machine a woman and a child, after a little practice, can milk upwards of fifty cows in an hour and a half. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Is the honorable member using a milking machine? {: .speaker-K4M} ##### Mr ROBERT COOK:
INDI, VICTORIA · VFU; CP from 1920 -- -No. I am a Protectionist, but many of the duties under this Tariff are prohibitive, and they will have the effect of driving hundreds off the land and into the cities in search of an easier job. The dairying industry should be encouraged. It pulled Australia through in a time of need, and must be looked to for substantial help in the future. Although the price of butter to-day is low, the dairying industry is a God-send to thousands of producers who would have little or nothing coming in but for the money they receive for their milk. The Minister ought not to hesitate to agree to the Senate's request. Surely the views of another place are entitled to consideration on our part. The Minister views favorably a request from another place for increased duties; why should he not accept this request for a reduction? It has been said that if the Country party and the Labour party combined it would be an unholy alliance, but the Government has received the solid support of the Labour party in carrying this Tariff. Supporters of the Government in another place have joined in making this request, and the Minister should agree to it. {: #debate-10-s3 .speaker-KFC} ##### Mr FLEMING:
Robertson .- When the honorable member for Herbert **(Mr. Bamford)** was debating this question a few minutes ago, he made a remark which, taken with an interjection made by the Minister **(Mr. Greene),** sums up the attitude of the Government and its supporters towards this proposition. The honorable member urged that this was only a little increase in the taxation of the man on the land, and the Minister interjected, " If we do not get £30,000,000 by indirect taxation we shall have to get it by the direct taxation of the man on the 12424 *Customs Tariff* [REPRESENTATIVES.] *Bill.* land." These arguments have been used throughout the Tariff debate, and, like many others, are cumulative in their effect upon the man on the land. The burden of taxation, no matter from what quarter it comes, is to be borne by the primary producer. I do not think it is quite fair for the Minister to say that if we do not agree to the increased duty for which the item, as originally passed by the Committee, provides, there will be increased direct taxation. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWILLIAMS:
FRANKLIN, TASMANIA · REV TAR; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; CP from 1920; IND from 1928 -- I thought that this was a Protective duty. {: .speaker-KFC} ##### Mr FLEMING: -- If it is, it will make it necessary to raise still more money by means of direct taxation. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I did notmake the remark in the connexion that the honorable member is endeavouring to establish. The remark related not to anything said by the honorable member for Herbert, but to an interjection by the honorable member for Swan **(Mr. Prowse).** {: .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr Prowse: -- And my interjection related to a remark made by the honorable member for Herbert. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- That does not make the connexion which the honorable member for Robertson is attempting to) establish. {: .speaker-KFC} ##### Mr FLEMING: -- The connexion is very easily proved. In the first place the honorable member for Herbert, in effect, said, "We are only going to put a little more taxation on the man on the land." The honorable member for Swan interjected that we raised £30,000,000 by way of Customs duties last year, and the Minister interjected, " If we do not raise that amount by indirect taxation we shall have to raise it by direct taxation." What doesthat mean ? The honorable member for Herbert says, " We will put a little more taxation on theman on the land," and the Minister says, "If it is not put on him in this way, it will have to be put on in another way." {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I say that Customs duties distribute the burden, whereas the honorable member for Swan's remedy is to put the whole of it on the man on the land. {: .speaker-KFC} ##### Mr FLEMING: -- The Minister is tryin to frighten this Committee into placing more burdens on the man on the land by saying that if we do not do so in this way, he will have to submit to more direct taxation. It is not fair to try to place all the burdens on the man on the land. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- That is exactly what we are not doing. {: .speaker-KFC} ##### Mr FLEMING: -- The whole Tariff means an increase of the burdens of the man on the land. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- In many instances it has the opposite effect. It gives him a market for his goods, and the honorable member himself has pleaded for some of the items. {: .speaker-KFC} ##### Mr FLEMING: -- In very minor directions it has opened up avenues for the man on the land, but the great burden of the Tariff will fall on him. The Minister will not question that statement? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I do, most emphatically. The amount collected by way of duties on things that are used by the man on the land is infinitesimal compared with the total collection. {: .speaker-KFC} ##### Mr FLEMING: -- The man on the land not only pays what the city man has to pay by way of Customs taxation in respect of food and clothing, but the additional duties collected on everything that is necessary not only to work his land, but to improve it. If the primary producer could be put on the same basis as the man in the city we would not have so much of which to complain. But he is carrying the cumulative effects of this taxation. It is not fair that we should be told that unless we allow this sort of thing to go on he will have to pay more by way of direct taxation. Surely there are ways of raising the money necessary to carry on the administrative affairs of this country without crushing those primary productions which have been of such immense aid to Australia. It is unnecessary at this late hour to point out that without primary production Australia would have been ruined during the war. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWILLIAMS:
FRANKLIN, TASMANIA · REV TAR; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; CP from 1920; IND from 1928 -- How many men are employed in making milking machines in Australia? {: .speaker-KFC} ##### Mr FLEMING: -- I do not know, but every year fewer people are being employed in the staple industries that have maintained Australia. Our primary industries, as every one knows, maintained Australia duringthe recent war ; yet here we are asked once more to pile increased taxation on them. When we try to save them from some of these burdens we are told that unless they accept them they will have to bear an even greater load of taxation. That is bad statesmanship. Taxation has been piled on primary producers *Customs Tariff* [3 November 1921.] *Bill.* 12425 to such an extent as to dishearten them, and it is an absolute fact that men are going off the land. I ask the Committee to accept the Senate's request, not so much with a view to lightening the burdens of the men on the land as to giving them renewed hope. What they need today is more sympathetic treatment on the part of the Administration. They wish to have their troubles recognised. The man on the land is now getting very low prices for his products, and sees little chance of prices rising. During the war, prices were good, but they have since got down to bedrock. Thousands of men throughout Australia who bought stock at high prices are now having to sell it at low prices. Men who bought store stock to fatten, thinking that they would make 40 or 50 per cent. on the original purchase price, are selling to-day for 40 or 50 per cent. less than the stock cost. Merino wool to-day sells well, but the price of all other grades of wool is low. Men bought sheep carrying wool for which they hoped to get fair prices, and to-day some of that wool is hardly saleable. In view of the disheartening trend of the world's markets, Parliament should show more sympathy with those on the land, many of whom are getting tired of the business, and are leaving the country districts to live in towns. {: #debate-10-s4 .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr RILEY:
South Sydney .- I do not object to members of the Corner party making the speeches to which we are listening, 'because they have to look after the interests of those they represent - the people in the country. But I ask them notto be too longwinded. This is the point of view that I would put to them. Is it not in the interests of the farmers that the machinery that they need should be manufactured in the Commonwealth? If there were no local manufacturers, the farmers would be at the mercy of the importers, who could charge what they liked, without fear of competition. That there are thirteen manufacturers of agricultural machinery in Australia, and likely to be more, keeps down prices. If you reduce the duties too much, these manufacturers will be unable to pay wages and get a return on their capital, and, not being in business for the sake oftheir health, will abandon the industry, leaving the fanners at the mercy of the importers. We hear of farmers coming to the city, and a good many are doing so; but they are men who have made a competence, and are retiring. On the other hand, there are thousands of persons wanting land. The Minister is not putting a burden on the farmers. When farmers buy machinery, they buy it to save labour, and thus to increase their profits. I do not blame them for wishing to save expense, but they must be prepared to pay a fair price for the machinery that they use for that purpose. It is to the interest of the farmers that they should get the best machinery, which is the machinery made in the country, the manufacture of which employs Australians. The honorable member for Robertson **(Mr. Fleming)** saysthat the farmers have to pay all the taxes, but he forgets that they get their necessaries at bedrock prices, producing what they consume, so that they have no profit to pay on it, whereas a factory employee has to pay highly for all he consumes. {: .speaker-KHG} ##### Mr Hill: -- Does the honorable member think it costs the farmer nothing to produce what he wants? {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr RILEY: -- My point is that he gets his necessaries at cost price. The honorable member for Robertson told us that the prices of stock have fallen, but so have the prices of boots and clothing, and many other things. Yet those who have bought merchandise to sell it again are not coming here with long faces, telling us that the world is coming to an end. Everything is falling in price. Labour has come down in price. Mr.Fleming. - Not on the stations. {: .speaker-KYV} ##### Mr RILEY: -- It was never high enough there to come down. Our friends say that we need population and a local market, but we cannot get population unless we provide for the employment of our people. When the farmer buys a machine to cheapen his production he charges its cost against the consumer of his products. {: #debate-10-s5 .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr PROWSE:
Swan -- A cursory glance at item 161 will show that it is in a different category from most of the others in the Tariff. The duties on woollen, linen, and cotton goods ; on boots, hats, foodstuffs, and narcotics, have to be paid by the whole population. A country which has adopted the Protectionist principle can apply it in regard to those things with perfect reasonableness, but wellgoverned countries have recognised that it cannot be applied to the machinery of production. There are sixty or more countries in which agricultural machinery is on the free list, and therefore we should not be doing anything novel if we allowed it to come free into this country. The duties under discussion are a special tax on those engaged in the business of producing the wealth in which all in the country participate. . I draw the attention of the Committee to some of the machinery mentioned in the item. There are channel-making machines. A man who wishes to drain a swampy piece of land, to fit it for production, has to use these machines, but when he purchases them he is charged rates of duty fixed at 22$, 30, and 35 per cent, *ad valorem.* {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- These machines are most important in irrigation settlements. {: .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr PROWSE: -- Tes. That is so. The Minister **(Mr. Greene)** has recognised the necessity of allowing the manufacturers of the country to get their raw material as cheaply as possible. Now, the machinery covered by the item is the raw material of the primary producer. There should not be this differentiation between him and the manufacturer. Garden and field-spraying machines are taxed. The fruit-growers of Australia find it difficult to live at present. Parliament fixed a price for sugar to enable reasonable conditions to be given to those engaged in the production of sugar cane, but the fruit-growers are not being helped; on the contrary, they are hindered. I have already shown how they are handicapped in marketing their produce, by the costs they have to pay in cases, nails, paper, heavy rail freights, and shipping freights. Yet it is proposed to tax them heavily on the spraying machines that they use to keep their trees free of pests. {: .speaker-K6S} ##### Mr Corser: -- Are not their productions protected ? {: .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr PROWSE: -- There can be no serviceable duty on apples, grapes, and other fruit of that kind. It is unstatesmanlike to impose these duties. Where railways cannot be made it is necessary to have good roads, and for the making of good roads scoops and rollers are needed; but these, again, are heavily taxed. One section of the community should not have to bear the whole cost of maintaining another section. Stump extractors, which are needed to prepare land for cultivation, are taxed. The more cheaply the farmers can get machinery, the more cheaply will they produce, and the whole people must benefit by cheap production. Milking machines are a wonderful invention, reducing the slavery on a dairy farm, and it is to the interest of the whole community to cheapen the production of milk, butter, and cheese; yet milking machines are taxed. There are many re- *O* turned men who have embarked on country pursuits, and they are finding these imposts very hard. {: .speaker-KFC} ##### Mr Fleming: -- They are going to be returned men in another sense, that is, men. who have returned from the country to the city. {: .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr PROWSE: -- Yes. It was reported the other day that potatoes were down to fi or £2 per ton, yet potato digging machines are dutiable under this item. So, too, are straw stackers and other agricultural machinery. It is absurd to hope for increased immigration while obstacles are placed in the way of production. To tax the farmers in this way is like hobbling the horse that you are riding. The community rides on the back of the farmer, and acts foolishly in hobbling him with the Tariff. I should like to see agricultural machinery free, at any rate, if imported from Great Britain; but I shall vote for the Senate's request, as being the best thing we are likely to get. {: #debate-10-s6 .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY:
Dampier .- I do not know whether the Minister still intends that no notice shall be taken of the ' Senate's request in connexion with this item. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- If the Government would assist me, I would move that the question be now put. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- The Government are quite welcome to " gag " me at any time they please. I only wish to know if it is not possible, after the consideration that has been given 'to this matter in another place, to have some little consideration extended to those whom these . duties affect, by members on this side, if not *Customs Tariff* [3 November, 1921.] . *Bill.* 12427 by members of the Opposition. I said last night that I did not believe there was an honorable member on either side prepared to vote on behalf of the exploiter. If honorable members opposite could show that the conditions for the workers are improved by the Tariff, and are better here than in the United States of America, or in Canada, where this machinery is turned out at about half the price, I could understand their present attitude, and realize that the workers themselves were seeing some advantage in the Tariff. **Mr. McKay** deserves every credit for the magnificent works he has established at Sunshine, but there is no doubt that he became a marvellously wealthy man under a much lower Tariff than that now before us. {: .speaker-K4M} ##### Mr ROBERT COOK:
INDI, VICTORIA · VFU; CP from 1920 -- But at whose expense? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- I say that **Mr. McKay** became a wealthy man under a lower Tariff than the present one. Under the Tariff in force up to 1914, and the small increase up to 1920, **Mr. McKay** and other manufacturers made large fortunes, and, as I say, I give him especially every" credit as one of the masters in the trading and mechanical world. The huge imposts on goods during the last twelve months must have meant tens and hundreds of thousands to the manufacturers, and unless it can be shown that, in consequence of the Tariff, conditions are better here than elsewhere, we ought not to do anything to assist the exploiter. On reapers and binders alone- {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The Senate has made no request in regard to reapers and binders. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- The Senate tried hard to make an alteration, and ought to have done so. {: .speaker-K4M} ##### Mr ROBERT COOK:
INDI, VICTORIA · VFU; CP from 1920 -- The Senate made no request because of the promise of the Minister **(Mr. Greene).** {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- I have no right to comment on what may have influenced honorable members of another place, but it would have been only fair to this Chamber for the Minister to tell us what promises were made to **Mr. McKay** and others. The Inter-State Commission was appointed by the Government and Parliament to make special inquiries with a view to reporting in reference to the incidence of the Tariff, and honorable members support the creation of the Tariff Board in the hope that it will perform similar service. From March to October, 1914, the Inter-State Commission held an inquiry, and sat to hear requests in regard to the 1908-11 duties on agricultural implements. This was at the time when the Labour party were in power, and a new Tariff was to be introduced ; and we should have made no protest, although some of the items affected country interests, had the Minister been content with the recommendations of the Commission. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- The recommendations must have been bad if they satisfied the honorable member ! {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- Honorable members opposite must have been satisfied with them. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- We never discussed them. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- I have some little knowledge of the methods of the Labour party, and I feel quite sure that if honorable members opposite had not been satisfied with the schedule introduced by the then Minister for Trade and Customs **(Mr. Tudor)** the matter would have been brought forward at the party meetings. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- We never discussed any items. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- So far as I can judge that was because members of the Labour party were perfectly satisfied with the Tariff. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr Fenton: -- No. Mr.GREGORY. - At any rate, the Labour party held their peace for five years until we came to the McKinley of Australia, by whom., under the guidance of the Chamber of Manufactures, there was brought forward one of the vilest protection-run-mad Tariffs ever introduced. We see members of the Government running round the country talking much piffle about the need for population and production; but, by means of this Tariff, everything that can be done is being done to destroy the man on the land. In 1914 the Inter-State Commission sent out word to the agricultural machinery manufacturers of Australia that they intended to give special consideration to this machinery as affected by the Tariff. According to the report of the Inter-State Commission, dated August, 1916 - nearly two years later - no information of any practical use was obtained, inasmuch as no manufacturer of consequence in Australia submitted any requests or furnished evidence. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Will the honorable member believe me if I say that in the recommendations of the Inter-State Commission there is one to the effect that this 2-^ per cent, shall be put on. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- I was coming to, that; I have the report of the Commission here, and propose to read it. I may say that this is one of the few occasions on which the Minister **(Mr. Greene)** has let us know anything about the report of the Inter-State Commission. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I do not say it is in the report the honorable member is referring to, but it is in the reports of the InterState Commission. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- I am informed that a blacksmith, in Tasmania, who was about to put on the market a potato digger and a peg-tooth harrow, submitted that his trade was on the increase, and was profitably carried on, but he desired a higher duty in order to expand his business more rapidly. The report of the Inter-State Commission says - >The most notable feature in connexion with this industry .is the fact that, except in regard to these comparatively unimportant branches, manufacturers' have refrained from approaching the Commission, either in regard to unsatisfactory conditions, which may exist in the manufacture of machines and implements >in which they arc at present engaged, or in respect to an extension of their operations to machines and implements which hitherto have not been commercially made here. It is a fair inference that the local manufacturers were satisfied with the 1908-11 Tariff. The information I have is that notwithstanding that no evidence was adduced, the Commission did make some recommendations, chiefly in the direction of raising the general Tariff in order to give a preference to implements, and so forth, of United Kingdom origin, which may partly account for the preference in the 1914 Tariff, brought in twenty-one months before the Commission's report was presented to Parliament. I am not quite sure, but I assume that the then Minister for Trade and Customs **(Mr. Tudor),** was aware of this report of the Commission. I know that the evidence was taken by the Commission from March till October in 1914, though I forget when the Tariff was introduced. It is only fair to assume, however, that the then Minister would have the advice of the Inter-State Commission prior to its introduction. The great fact stands out that the machinery manufacturers did not ask for increased duties, evidently not considering them essential. We are always given to understand that as time goes on Protective duties can be decreased; that as businesses are built up, and a wider market obtained, manufacturing can be conducted on a larger "scale, with lower prices as the result. Surely we are now justified, after years and years of Protection, in expecting to obtain agricultural machinery more cheaply than in the past. Even at the present time, there -is large natural protection, and there was even more a few months ago, in the shape of heavy freights, insurances, and so forth. In the case of goods from America and Canada the exchange at the present time is so much against us that, taking the figures of two months ago, we have to pay £117 for £100 worth of goods. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- Is the exchange £17? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- It was when we were dealing with, the Tariff on the last occasion. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- There must be some other charges included. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- I have already mentioned that there are freight, insurances, and other risks. Further, although wages have been reduced in Canada recently, they are still considerably higher than in Australia. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- We were expecting the honorable member's help to get higher wages in Australia. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- Mv view was that if Parliament waa determined to adopt a Protectionist policy, the first step should be to reduce the cost of living. I sought to either put commodities like tinned fish and cotton socks on 'the free list or admit them at low rates of duty so that the cost of living would be reduced. I do not desire wages to be reduced unless there is a reduction in the cost of living, but we have a right to demand from the employers and workers in this country a. service equally as good as that given by the manufacturers and workers in the United States of America and Canada. In point of natural ability and resourcefulness the Australian workers are equal to any in the world. I take second place to none in my belief in the Australian worker, but if the local manufacturer is *Customs Tariff* [3 November, 1921.] *Bill.* 12429 not using up-to-date plant to enable him to compete with manufacturers in other parts of the world, is it right for that reason to impose a penalty upon other sections of the community? The Canadian farmer can buy a reaper and binder for £60, whilst the Australian farmer has to pay £100 for a similar article, and if this 40 per cent. duty had been operating last year, the cost of the machine would have been £130. Surely the Australian manufacturer should be able to produce the article at something near the price at which the machine is sold in America. {: #debate-10-s7 .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- The honorable member is not in order in discussing that matter on this item. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- I think the honorable member placed those pearls of wisdom before the. Committee when the Tariff was previously under consideration. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- These are facts which I think it worth while to impress upon the Committee. The honorable member claims that he is always endeavouring to do the best he can for the worker, but the only person who will gain by these heavy duties is the manufacturer ; he is the "king-pin" all through this Tariff, and we have usually found him a good deal in evidence about this building. In regard to the comparative rates of wages paid in Canada and Australia, the latest information I am able to obtain from the *Y ear-Books* relates to the year 1918, and it shows that in the agricultural machinery industry the average wage paid in Australia was £129 18s., whereas in Canada it was £192 12s., or about 34 per cent. more. {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr Considine: -- What were the comparative costs of living? It is no use quoting wages unless the honorable member contrasts what the wages will buy in each country. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- The honorable member will realize the difficulty of making such a comparison for the year 1918. We can ascertain what has been the percentage of increase in the cost of living, but it is very difficult to say what the actual cost of living in Canada was in 1918. I concede, however, that the cost of living would be less in Australia. A comparison of the values of outputs is very significant, and shows that there must be somethingwrong with the Australian conditions. In this country the value of the finished product per man employed was £424 6s., whilst in Canada it was £690 10s. {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr Considine: -- The Australian workman may have been paid a daily wage and the Canadian workman piece rates. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- A great proportion of the work done in the Sunshine factory is paid for at piece rates. A certain amount of labour on daily wages must be employed in both countries. {: .speaker-K4F} ##### Mr Considine: -- We heard a great deal about the output of the Ford factory, but we did not hear much about the piecework system and the speeding-up processes. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- The honorable member knows perfectly well that the conditions in the Ford factory are magnificent, and that the employees there receive a much higher wage than is paid to workers in Australia. I hope the Committee will give more favorable consideration to the request from another place. Question - That the requested amendment be not made - put. The Committee divided. AYES: 29 NOES: 10 Majority . . . . . 19 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Motion agreed to. 12430 *Customs Tariff* [REPRESENTATIVES.] *Bill.* Item. 162- >Chaff cutters and horse gears; corn shelters ; corn huskers; cultivators n.e.i. ; harrows ; ploughs other; plough shares; plough mouldboards; scarifiers, ad. val.,British, 22½ per cent. ; intermediate, 30 per cent. ; general, 35 per cent. > > *Senate's Request.* - British, 15 per cent. ; intermediate, 25 per cent.; general, 30 per cent. {: #debate-10-s8 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I move - >That the requested amendment be not made. It may shorten the debate and assist honorable members if I indicate at this stage what the Government propose in respect of the requests of the Senate dealing with agricultural machinery generally. I shall ask the Committee not to agree to the request upon the item immediately under discussion, but upon the four following items I shall move for the acceptance of the requests, raising the British preferential duty, however, in each instance to 22½ per cent. Honorable members will note that my reference is to the four items Ncs. 163, 164, and 165 a and b. They cover such implements as combined corn shellers, disc cultivators, drills, stump-jump ploughs, winnowers, parts of agricultural machines, churns of all kinds, refrigerators other than for household use, reaper threshers and harvesters, and stripper harvesters. The effect of accepting the Senate's requests, with the addition of 2½ per cent. to the preferential rate, will be to. bring all the duties on agricultural implements into line - that is to say, the same British rate will rule throughout. My proposal should meet with the views of the Senate, and at the same time afford reasonable protection to Australian manufacturers. I desire to mention why I have suggested the addition of 2½ per cent. to the preferential rate. When discussing the, previous item - that, having to do with agricultural, horticultural, and viticultural implements - the honorable member for Dampier **(Mr. Gregory)** drew for support upon the reports of the Inter-State Commission. Those reports were his justification. I propose to justify the imposition of an all-round British duty of 22½ per cent. also by the reports of the Interstate Commission. If honorable members will turn to page 39 of the majority report of that body, dealing with iron and steel, they will note a paragraph which reviews the general effect of the adoption of she Commission's recommendation. The recommendation was for the imposition of a duty of 12s. 6d. per ton upon pig iron. This was proposed as a basis in respect of the iron and steel industry. However, a departure has been made from that recommendation, and the duty is 20s. per ton. The Commissioners say - >In reviewing the relation of the 'proposals made herein to their effect on other industries, it is gratifying to be able to state that the increased duties required to protect local manufacturers using iron and steel products are generally comparatively unimportant. The necessary increase over existing Tariff rates ranges from 2½ per cent. to 5 per cent. Of the £7,000,000 imports of all engineering, mechanical, electrical, and agricultural manufactures, not less than 75 per cent. require only 2* per cent., and the balance not more than a per cent. addition of duty.. There is the recommendation of the Inter-State Commission, to the effect that 2½ per cent. should be added if 12s. 6d. is to be adopted as the basic' duty upon pig iron. As I have just pointed out, the departure from that recommendation is to the extent of making the preferential duty 20s. per ton. Upon that basis the Government should have made the added duty in the instances now under discussion equal to about 4 per cent. However, the proposal is to add only 2½ per cent. {: #debate-10-s9 .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWILLIAMS:
Franklin -- I hope the Committee will not depart from the request of the Senate. There should be a fixed rule that the tools of trade of all workers should be kept as free from the imposition of duties as possible. That is a principle by which the Country' party stands. I have always advocated it. Before the war farmers were able to buy the ordinary light doublefurrow plough forbetween £10 10s. and £11. To-day the cost of the implement is about £26 10s. The same story may be told with regard to the reaper and binder. In fact, prices have been multiplied by three. The enhanced cost amounts to the payment of a tribute by primary producers to the wealthy city manufacturers of Australia, and it is time the practice was ended. I have been afforded an example of what this rotten Tariff means. I hold in my hand a. *facsimile* of a cheque which was reproduced in the Launceston *Examiner.* {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Is the honorable member going to start a picture show here? *Customs Tariff* [3 November, 1921.] *Bill.* 12431 {: #debate-10-s10 .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWILLIAMS: -- This is no jest for those who have had to find the money behind the cheque, an amount of £10,450. The history of the cheque is that a local publicbody sent to England for a dredge. It was a peculiar kind of dredge, which could not be obtained in Australia. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Those local authorities could have got it made here. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWILLIAMS: -- They say they could not have clone so. At any rate, their first dredge was sunk by the Germans. {: #debate-10-s11 .speaker-JWY} ##### The CHAIRMAN (Hon J M Chanter:
RIVERINA, NEW SOUTH WALES -- Order! I cannot let the honorable member proceed with references to dredges, seeing that they are not mentioned in the item under review. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWILLIAMS: -- I am dealing more particularly with the matter of inordinately heavy duties which have been imposed upon tools of trade, and I have cited this specific instance as an example: {: #debate-10-s12 .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- I am afraid I cannot let the honorable member proceed, since to do so would open the way for other honorable members to depart from the matter before the Chair. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWILLIAMS: -- Perhaps dredges are not directly under consideration at the moment, but the Committee is dealing with similar classes of machinery. However, I may mention that the sum of £10,450 was paid by the local body, which represented a tax of about 7d. in the £1 over the whole of the area to be dealt with. {: .speaker-10000} ##### The CHAIRMAN: -- Order! {: .speaker-K6S} ##### Mr Corser: -- Two similar dredges have been built in Maryborough. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWILLIAMS: -- Not this class of article at all. The dredging work was hung up for nearly five years, owing to the fact that the dredge could not be constructed in England while the war was in progress. The Tamar local governing body would have been only too glad to order an Australian-built dredge, and so avoid robbery. Is it fair that the Australian primary producer, who is having so bad a time to-day, should be called upon, before be can buy an ordinary implement of trade, to pay tribute to rich city manivf acturers ? I invite honorable members to consider the price of ploughshares to-day, and, in fact, of everything that the farmer must use. I invite honorable members, further, to remember that these inordinate costs are facing producers at a time when they are confronted with the worst market known in this country for many a year. {: .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- Look at the price of bread, with wheat at 9s. per bushel. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWILLIAMS: -- I am afraid that the price of wheat this year will be between 4s. and 4s. 6d. per bushel, f.o.b. There are very few farmers in Australia who can produce wheat to-day on the basis of that price. But what care honorable members? What do the renegade low-Tariff advocates care? What care those who previously fought for moderately low duties? What care they that our farmers, in the special circumstances existing at this time, should be forced to pay more than double the legitimate price for their necessary implements? Of course, when one sees the Chamber of Manufactures, as represented by the Government, and the Trades Hall, as represented by the Opposition, shaking hands across the table in this chamber with the common purpose of robbing the primary producer, one is bound to realize that his protest is as the voice of one crying in the wilderness. What is wrong with Australia that we cannot manufacture in competition with other countries? We have, I suppose, the richest iron mine in the world, situated for working under the mostfavorable circumstances. Cargoes of coal can be transported to proximity to that mine and sold readily as a profitable venture; and the ships, after discharging the coal, can return with cargoes of iron ore. We have to-day, I believe, the cheapest coal in all the world for our manufacturers. What is wrong with Australia? Why must the people pay to Australian manufacturers something in the nature of a bonus of 5s., 6s., and 7s. in the £1? The productions with which Australian manufacturers are called upon to compete come chiefly from Great Britain, Canada, and the United States of America. Respecting the implements dealt with in the item under discussion. Canada and the United States of America are our principal competitors. In those countries wages are as high as in Australia. Canadian manufacturers pay more for their coal and iron, and the 12432 *CustomsTariff* [REPRESENTATIVES.] *Bill.* latter producthas to be procured under considerably less favorable circumstances. In addition, manufacturers in America are handicapped by freights and charges; after which there is this monstrous Australian Tariff. Yet the Australian manufacturer would appear to be unable to compete without still further assistance. In former days the cry heard in this Parliament used to be, "We must have high duties to protect ourselves against the pauper labour of Europe." That cry is obsolete. Another cry to-day names the Japanese, but the people of that country are not our competitors in these lines of agricultural machinery. The competition, I emphasize, comes from Canada, and also from the United States of America, where the standard of living is as high as that in Australia. Yet the Australian manufacturer pleads that he cannot hold his own, even with the help of more favorable basic conditions, and with the protective assistance of freights and shipping charges, but that he must be further assisted by means of a bonus amounting to from 7s. to 8s. in the£1. The Australian manufacturer is as brainy as any of his competitors. The Australian working man is as competent and hard-working as the labourer of any other part of the world. Why, then, cannot we compete with Americans and Canadians *1* Why must we compel the producers to pay tribute to wealthy manufacturers before they can obtain their tools of trade? We can ship harvesters to Argentine and compete there in an open market with all comers, but at home we cannot compete with fellow competitors unless we have a big duty to protect the industry. Not one legitimate argument has been advanced in favour of this duty. Having all the raw material here, there is no need to import a single component part of this machinery, and it is a confession that our manufacturers are deficient in intelligence and that workers are incompetent if we say that without a- high protective duty they cannot compete with Americans and Canadians, despite the high freights and other charges to be paid by the imported article. It is a monstrous contention that one section of the community should be asked to bear this impost, and I hope the Committee will make the requested amendment. Question - That the requested amendment be not made - put. The Committee divided. AYES: 27 NOES: 11 Majority . . . . 16 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Motion agreed to. Item 163- >Combined com shelter, husker, and bagger; combined corn shelter and husker; disc cultivators; drills (fertilizer, seed, and grain) n.e.i.; stumpjump ploughs; winnowers (horse and other power) ; seats, poles, swinglebars, yokes, and trees for agricultural machines, when imported separately, ad. val., British, 27½ per cent. ; intermediate, 35 per cent. ; general, 40 per cent. > > *Senate's Request.* - British, 20 per cent.; intermediate, 30 per cent.; general, 35 per cent. {: #debate-10-s13 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- For reasons I have already given, I move - >That the requested amendment be made with the following modification: - Leave out British, 20 per cent.", and insert in lieu thereof "British, 22½ per cent." {: #debate-10-s14 .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON:
Maribyrnong -- During the adjournment a great change seems to have come over the Minister *Customs Tariff* [3 November, 1921.] *Bill.* 12433 **(Mr. Greene).** A little over an hour ago he was ridiculing the honorable member for Dampier **(Mr. Gregory)** for quoting a seven years' old report of the Inter-State Commission, but now he is using the same report to support his proposal to reduce the duty on this machinery by 5 per cent. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The only portion of the Inter-State Commission's report I quoted was its justification for the2½ per cent. which the honorable member for Dampier had discovered in it. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- One would imagine that the honorable members of the Country party really believe they represent the whole of the population of Australia; but there are at least 1,000,000 Australians whose living depends on the manufacturing industries. Is this million of consumers of no value to the primary producer? Do they not provide him with a ready local market for his produce? Under the duty as agreed to by this Committee previously, within the next two years two great factories would have been established in Australia capable of turning out £2,500,000 worth of machinery which is now imported ; but the Minister's proposal to accept a reduced duty may cause these people to decide not to commence operations in Australia. The variation of the rate in the British preferential column will not make much difference, because very little of this class of machinery comes from Great Britain. Our competition comes from America. The Minister is willing to reduce the duty against America by 5 per cent. {: .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr Atkinson: -- Will the 5 per cent. amount to very much? {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- Honorable members of the Country party say that it will make a great deal of difference, but on a previous item covering a great variety of material used on a farm I showed that an extra 5 per cent. in duty would not mean more than £550 to the whole of the farmers of Australia. Honorable members are not capable of being brought to a reasonable frame of mind, and to understand that protective duties, while building up a local market for them, will also provide them with cheap tools of trade unknown to them forty years ago. The inventive genius of Australians and the wisdom of our mechanics have provided the farmers with more labour-saving machinery than has been known to agri culturists in any other part of the world. This is the reward that the Country party would give the men who, by their inventive genius, have helped the farmers to work their land more cheaply than in days gone by. If they had their way they would wipe out the secondary industries; and, but that it would result in disaster to our workers, I would be prepared to give them a dose of their own physic, by voting tobring Free Trade into operation for two years. After such a dose of their Free Trade physic we should find the Country party on bended knee praying for a return to a Protective Tariff, on the ground that the importers were fleecing them. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWilliams: -- Let us try it. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- The Country party would lead the country into disaster. They are wreckers, and would pull down industries that have been established here at enormous cost. One would imagine, from their attitude, that they believe that every farmer's son will follow his father on the farm. {: .speaker-K4M} ##### Mr ROBERT COOK:
INDI, VICTORIA · VFU; CP from 1920 -- They would not do so if the honorable member had his way. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- If the honorable member has four sons, I will undertake to say that at least two of them will not follow him in his farming pursuits. I am the son of a farmer, and have spent one-half of my life in the country. Many of the farmers' sons who were among my school mates are to-day working as blacksmiths, electrical engineers, and so forth. Why? {: .speaker-KHG} ##### Mr Hill: -- Becausethey had to get off the land. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- No; because they would have been " duffers " as farmers. Honorable members of the Country party would deny to the sons of farmers the right to choose their own employment. They would give them no opportunity to follow their natural bent. I am prepared to assist rural interestsby voting for decentralization. I would vote to-morrow for an expenditure of at least £2,000,000 per annum., to increase postal, telephone, and other facilities for our rural population. Side by side with such a policy, however, we must build up the industries of the country. Honorable members of the Country party seem to think that only those who grow cereals, potatoes, or onions are producers. The man in the workshop, who makes a machine, is as much a producer as the man on the land. I cannot help feeling that some peculiar influence is at work. Not more than three months have elapsed since this schedule went to another place with the blessings of the Minister for Trade and Customs **(Mr. Greene),** and provided, in respect of the item now before us, for a duty of 5 per cent, in excess of what the honorable gentleman now asks us to fix. Why have the Government agreed to reduce the duty as originally passed by us? On comparatively unimportant matters the Minister has put up a fight, and has said to the Country party, " I am not going to accept the Senate's request for a reduction.". But when we come to an important item dealing with agricultural machinery, he says to the Country party, "Don't shoot, I'll come down." On this occasion I suppose the Minister has the support of not only his own party, but of the Country party. The Country party has got into line again with the Government, and the tail, is going to wag the dog. {: #debate-10-s15 .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS:
Melbourne Ports .- I do not like .the change which has come over the scene. I saw the honorable member for Dampier **(Mr. Gregory)"** with his arms round the neck of the Minister **(Mr. Greene)'** a little while ago, and I want to know why the honorable gentleman has agreed to modify his original proposal. If the flow of language on the part of the (Country party has turned the Minister from the Straight path, so far as the imposition of reasonable Protective duties is concerned, then we on this side of the chamber will have to indulge in the same tactics, in an endeavour to bring him back to the Tight track. Prior to the adjournment for dinner the Country party put up a "stone-wall" on this item; and if the Minister is going to. be swayed in this way by the opposition of the Country party -to his proposals, I do not see much chance of his getting rid of the Tariff this side of Christmas. He' has made a fatal error in yielding to the Country party. Why has he given way to the disadvantage of the dear old Mother Land? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Britain will get a 12$ per cent, advantage' out of the deal. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- I have been chided more than once for not having that regard for the Motherland that it is said I ought to have. If the Minister can give reasons for decreasing the rates agreed to by this Chamber, I should like to hear them. Apparently, the honorable member for Dampier **(Mr. Gregory)** was. closeted with him during the dinner adjournment) because I could not find the honorable member then. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I neither spoke to nor saw the honorable member then, nor did I see any other member of the Cornerparty. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- When did the honorable gentleman come to this decision? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- About six weeks ago. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- Why is it proposed to increase the rate of duty on importations from the dear old Motherland and to reduce that on importations from the United States of America? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I have already given the reasons to the Committee. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- I do not wish to appear discourteous in thus catechizing the Minister, but I have been a Government hack, so- far as the Tariff is concerned, while members of the Ministerial party and members of the Corner party have been trying to kill the Tariff; and, representing as I do a manufacturing constituency, I think that I am not asking too much in seeking to be taken into the confidence of the Minister on this matter, as members of the Country party, who arc always ready to stab the Government in the back, appear . to have been. I should like to know how and when they managed to impress the Minister with the desirability of making these alterations. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- I have not spoken to the Minister, nor to any member of the Ministry, on the subject. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- The members of the Corner party have managed to gain a victory, and therefore appear well satisfied. {: .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr Prowse: -- Why should that disconcert' the honorable member? {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- Because I know that when the members of the Corner party are satisfied with anything that has been done in regard to the Tariff, it is foreign workers, and not Australian workers, who have benefited. They have not cast a vote in connexion with the Tariff which would give an hour's work to any man in Australia. {: .speaker-K4M} ##### Mr ROBERT COOK:
INDI, VICTORIA · VFU; CP from 1920 -- You do not want work. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- It is not the work that the people whom I represent desire so much as the money which they receive for working, and, no doubt, the constituents of the members of the Corner party take the same attitude. {: .speaker-K4M} ##### Mr ROBERT COOK:
INDI, VICTORIA · VFU; CP from 1920 -- If they did not work, we should all starve. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- High duties are necessary to build up the agricultural machinery industry in Australia. What we have to fear is, not the fair competition of the manufacturers of other countries, but the dumping manoeuvres of the capitalists of those countries. I have been twitted during the Tariff discussions with siding with the capitalistic element in this community. The honorable member for Dampier has repeatedly said that we, the Trades Hall representatives - accent being laid on the words "Trades Hall" as if they implied something horrible - are in league with the big manufacturers. {: .speaker-JSC} ##### Mr Brennan: -- Can the honorable member say what is the ratio of the im- portation of stump-jump ploughs to the local manufacture of them? {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- The honorable member can obtain that information from the Library; it is not my business to supply him with statistics. If those of us who support high duties seem to be allied with the capitalistic manufacturers of the Commonwealth, it is because we represent the men whom those capitalists employ. These nien send us here to look after their interests. I am ready to admit that the capitalistic manufacturers of this country are ready to extract as much profit out of the community as they can. But while they may be bad - adjectively bad if you like - they are not half so bad as the importers. The constituents of the members of the Corner party would find that out if they were handed over to the tender mercies of the importers. It was the importers who, during the war, raised the prices of everything. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr Mcwilliams: -- And the manufacturers. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- The manufacturers had not the opportunity. It was the softgoods warehousemen and the wholesale hardware merchants who put up prices, and the people suffered. The enormous indebtedness which) the country has incurred through the war is due largely to the profits made by merchants in Flinderslane, and other wholesale importers. Members of the Corner party attack those who employ Austraiian workmen, but leave unchallonged the methods of those who employ foreign workmen, so that it might be thought that they represent the people of some other country rather than Australian electors. Whenever there is an attempt to make Australia self-contained, they try to foil it. I know the country districts of Victoria, well, and T deny that the utterances of the members for Indi **(Mr. R. Cook),** Echuca **(Mr. Hill),** and Corangamite **(Mr. Gibson)** represent the attitude of the fanners of their districts towards the workers of Australia. I admit that the farmers are keenly interested in their own. concerns; that is only human nature. {: .speaker-KHG} ##### Mr Hill: -- They have as rauch regard for the city workers as you have for the country workers. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- I know that they have; but their representatives here have not. Had the farmers of Australia raked and scraped for ten years, they could not have collected a more unworthy set of representatives than they now have in this Chamber. Of course, I do not speak of members personally. I am considering them, only in their representative capacity. I have been informed that in twelve months the importations under item 163 have increased by at least 45 per cent. {: .speaker-K4M} ##### Mr ROBERT COOK:
INDI, VICTORIA · VFU; CP from 1920 -- Where did you get that information ? {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- I have been supplied with it by the trade, which took it from official records. This increase occurred under higher rates than are now proposed. {: .speaker-JSC} ##### Mr Brennan: -- Perhaps the importations will decrease if the rates are lowered. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- That is a FreeTrade suggestion. I have never known the lowering of duties to have the effect of reducing importations. Is the Minister aware of the fact that the importations have increased during the past twelve months under the operation of this Tariff? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Will the honorable member tell me what the importations are for the two periods? {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- I think the Corner party must have "knocked out" the Minister, who does not seem to have that vim and "go" we so much admired when he was presenting the Tariff to us earlier in the year. When the honorable member for Dampier **(Mr. Gregory),** the honorable member for Swan **(Mr. Prowse),** or the honorable member for Kalgoorlie **(Mr. Foley)** ask questions they are supplied with answers, and that, of course, is quite proper as between a Minister and his supporters ; but I think that, in view of the support I have given to the honorable gentleman, I am equally deserving of information. The tactics of the! Corner party seem to have been instrumental in bringing about a fatality, due to what is regarded as the undaunted spirit exhibited by them in. their attack on the Ministry. I am in an unfortunate position. The Minister knows that because of my beliefs I am bound to support him in obtaining the highest duties possible, and he, therefore, feels that he may play fast and loose with me. and hand me over to the tender mercies of the gentlemen in the corner'. That, I submit, is not a. fair way to treat a loyal supporter like myself. I suppose, however, that I shall have to do without the information. The Corner party, having tasted blood, will desire more, and will "stone-wall" until they get it, and it may be that we on this side may have to resort to a similar course. {: #debate-10-s16 .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr WATKINS:
Newcastle .- I can quite understand the attitude of the Country party towards these items, and I have no quarrel with them on that score. I do, however, object to the attitude of the Minister in his handling of these requests from the Senate. These related items were voted on by this Committee, and in the particular case before us the duties were fixed at 27$ per cent., 35 per cent., and 40 per cent, by a twotoone majority. When these requests come before us we are entitled to more information than has been given us in regard to the altered attitude of the Minister **(Mr. Greene).** This particular item was separated from the others for the special reason that the machines are, most of them, Australian inventions which have been pirated in America; but the Minister now states that he is prepared to accept the requested amendments of the Senate, merely raising one duty from 20 per cent, to 22$ per cent, against Britain. The whole thing is a fiasco, because these machines do not come from Britain, but from America, where our ideas were pirated. Our whole care throughout the consideration of the Tariff has been to give Britain .a preference and develop Empire trade; and the Minister, to blind honorable members on this side, now proposes to increase the duty against Britain by 2$ per cent., though the real competition comes from America. This is playing fast and loose with the Tariff. Just before the dinner adjournment we refused to accede to a request made by the Senate, and adhered to the Tariff as it left this House. Then no suggestion was made by the Minister about British preference. As I have said, the disc cultivator, the fertilizer, and the stump-jump plough are purely Australian inventions, which we selected for special treatment. I regret to see the attitude of the Minister, especially when he knows that, if honorable members were left free to vote as they think, there would be a strong majority against the proposed amendment. {: #debate-10-s17 .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON:
Maribyrnong .- I move - >That the motion be amended by substituting for the modification proposed by the Minister the following modification: - "British, 20 per cent.; intermediate, .35 per cent.; general, 40 per cent." This will increase the British preference by 5 per cent, over the request made by the Senate, and the suggestion should be accepted by the Minister. {: #debate-10-s18 .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- I support the amendment moved by the honorable member for Maribyrnong **(Mr. Fenton).** It is all very well to say that we have sympathy for the Old Country; but action is worth an ocean of prayer or a thousand sermons. Surely our manufacturers can turn out these goods well enough to suit our farmers; at any rate, I know that when my son was farming in the West he and his mates were men enough to get their machinery from the Government State works. I think that **Mr. McKay** did not "play the game ' ' when **Sir William** Lyne-, as Minister for Trade and Customs, guaranteed him protection in consideration of him paying the wages fixed by the Wages Board. The clever profession, known as the legal profession, which is often a curse to' humanity, found a flaw in the Act, which was declared inoperative by the High Court. {: .speaker-K4M} ##### Mr ROBERT COOK:
INDI, VICTORIA · VFU; CP from 1920 -- I beg to call attention to the state of the House. *[Quorum formed.]* {: .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936 -- I welcomed the Country party to this House thinking that, perhaps, as a new combination, they might be more honest in their dealings; but I am coming to the conclusion that if there is a party which would like to destroy the manufacturers of Australia, and send the workers to beg in the streets, it is that party. By the amendment moved by the honorable member for Maribyrnong **(Mr. Penton),** we are offering Great Britain a paltry preference of 5 per cent. We know that Germany in the future will possibly have the most up-to-date labour-saving appliances for the manufacture of machinery of any country in the world.. I said before the war had been in progress many months that it would be the duty of this Parliament to allow goods from the Mother Country to be imported at as low a duty as possible, just insuring our manufacturers a fighting chance to compete. That would mean maintaining a system of co-operation with the Mother Country, and, at the same time, a healthy competition between her manufacturers and ours. I was prepared to allow the Home Land 10 per cent., 20 per cent., or 50 per cent, preference over the Allies, the Allies a preference over neutrals, and neutrals a preference over the enemy countries. For I know that by means of " greasing the palm " foreign countries were able to sell machinery to the Victorian Railways Department in spite of the resolution carried by the State Parliament, and notwithstanding that the prices were higher than for the same quality of material made in Great Britain. I do not share the Minister's faith in the efficacy of the proposed legislation to protect this country against the dumping of foreign goods. We know how undercutting is carried on. As the Tariff schedule left this Chamber it provided for duties of 27 J per cent., 35 per cent., and 40 per cent. The Senate requested a reduction to 20 per1 cent., 30 per cent., and 35 per cent., and the honorable member for Maribyrnong **(Mr. Fenton)** has asked the Committee to make them 20 per cent., 35 per cent., and 40 per cent. The amendment meets the Senate's request to the extent of reducing the British preferential duty by 7 J per cent., but restores the intermediate and general duties that were previously agreed to by this Committee. With the possible exceptions of Canada and America there is no country that I have visited where the standard of wages and living is as high as that in Australia, and every one desires our workers to continue to enjoy that advantage. Although the wages in ' America may be a little higher, good tradesmen who nave worked there for some years, and have returned to Australia, have told me that they prefer to work- in Victoria, or New South Wales at wages 20 or 25 per cent, less than they received in the United States of America, because the climate, particularly in San Francisco and the Californian coast, had an exhilarating effect upon them, they were pitted against each other, and the hours worked were often longer than in Australia; so that although the pay was better, they could not continue at work so long. Honorable members have heard me relate previously that when Foster Fraser asked the American employers to point out their tradesmen who were past fifty years of age, he was shown the cemetery as the place where the workers were planted when they reached that age. We do not desire that condition of affairs in Australia. I ask the Minister to allow this Tariff to prove that we are in sympathy with the Home Land, and will allow her the full 15 per cent, preference as compared with the intermediate Tariff, and 20 per cent, as compared with the general Tariff. That is merely asking the Minister to reaffirm, the opinion he held when the Tariff was sent to the Senate, and is a polite intimation to another place that we are prepared to be more generous than it is in granting preferance to the Home Land. **Mr. MATHEWS** (Melbourne Ports; [9.21]. - I desire to point out how unfair the Minister is in regard to the British preferential duty. I assume that the reason why he proposes to alter the Senate's request from 20 per cent, to 22$ per cent, is that the Senate requested that the intermediate and general duties should be reduced 5 per cent., whilst the Inter-State 12438 *Customs Tariff* [REPRESENTATIVES.] *Bill.* Commission, whose report was quoted by the honorable member for Dampier **(Mr. Gregory),** recommended that the duty should be reduced 7½ per cent. The Minister is therefore proposing an all round reduction of 5 per cent. The InterState Commission recommended that all fixed duties should be increased by 2½ per cent. because a duty has been placed on pig-iron, whichwill naturally make that article dearer to the local manufacturer. If we desire to keep the Tariff scientifically balanced, the whole of the rates should be increased 2½ per cent. If the Minister's proposal is the outcome of the recommendation quoted by the honorable memberforDampier **(Mr. Gregory),** it would fee only fair of the Minister to increase the intermediate and general duties also by 2½ per cent. If he will agree to do that, I am prepared to compromise with him. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The honorable member should compare the old Tariff with this one and he will see the reason for what I have done. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- I assume that the Minister will say that his proposal will mean a uniform reduction of 5 per cent. in the three columns of the schedule; but I suspect that it is the outcome of a conference between him and the honorable member for Dampier. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- If we proposed 80 per cent. the honorable member would ask for 90 per cent. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- It is only because the Treasurer **(Sir Joseph Cook)** has been civilized by contact with some Protectionists that we can get his. support for even these low duties. I am inclined to think that he still retains his Free-Trade propensities, and favours these duties only because they are good for the Treasury. I feel piqued because the army led by the honorable member for Dampier **(Mr. Gregory)** has evidently obtained a concession from the Minister, although the latter will not admit it. I suggest that he meet his loyal supporters half way by agreeing to make the duties 22½ per cent., 32½ per cent., and 37½ per cent. I suppose he has given a solemn pledge to the Corner party that he will do a certain thing, and he has thereby broken his solemn pledge to his Protectionist supporters that he would adhere to the duties previously agreed to by this Committee. I remember the extraordinary efforts by the Minister to recommend these duties to the Committee as a means of building up this machinery industry, and how he proved to the Corner party that, as a result of local manufacture, the farmers were getting their machinery cheaper than before. Now he is reversing his former attitude. I ask him to give to those who have loyally supported him some concession. I am prepared to accept defeat on this item if the Minister will promise that he will not similarly betray Protectionist principles in future. If he continues what he is doing on this item, I warn him that the Tariff will not pass this side of Christmas. Question - That the amendment (Mr. Fenton's) be agreed to - put. The Committee divided. AYES: 11 NOES: 30 Majority . . . . 19 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the negative. Amendment negatived. Motion agreed to. Item 164- >Churns of all kinds: cheese presses; dairy coolers; refrigerators other than for household use, ad val., British, 27* per cent.; intermediate, 35 per cent. ; general, 40 per cent. > > *Senate'sRequest.-* British, 20 per cent. ; intermediate, 30 per cent.; general, 35 per cent. Motion (by **Mr. Greene)** agreed to- >That the requested amendment be made, with the following modification: - > >Instead of British, 20 per cent., read British, 22½ per cent. *Customs Tariff* [3 November, 1921.1 *Bill.* 12439 Item 165 (a)- >Reaper threshers and harvesters, n.e.i., ad val., British, 25 per cent.; intermediate, 35 per cent.; general, 40 per cent. > > *Senate's Request.* - British, 20 per cent.; intermediate, 30 per cent.; general, 35 per cent. Motion (by **Mr. Greene)** agreed to- >That the requested amendment be made, with the following modification : - > >Instead of British, 20 per cent., read British, 22½ per cent. Item 165 (b)- >Stripper-harvesters, each, British, £12; intermediate, £14; general, £15; or, ad vail., British, 25 per cent.; Intermediate, 35 per cent.; general, 40 per cent.; whichever rate returns the higher duty. > > *Senate's Bequest.* - British, £10; intermediate, £12; general, £13; or, ad val., British, 20 per cent.; intermediate, 30 per cent.; general, 35 per cent. Motion (by **Mr. Greene)** proposed - >That the requested amendment be made, with the following modification: - > >Instead of British, 20 per cent., read British, 224 per cent. {: #debate-10-s19 .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON:
Maribyrnong -- The request of the Senate in this instance has to do with a very important industry, and one which was, until recently, at any rate, essentially Australian. {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr Richard Foster: -- No matter what rates are imposed on strippers, the effect will be negligible. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- I think it will be found that the honorable member was an enthusiastic supporter of the rates originally proposed by the Minister **(Mr. Greene).** Why this sudden drop equivalent to £2 on every machine? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- There is no need to bother about the stripper at all. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- If that be the case, the attitude of the Minister at this moment is even less comprehensible. Why this change of view? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- Nobody would import a stripper-harvester. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- There are no importations. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- The Minister has certain information at his command. No doubt he has been informed that if the Government are prepared to impose good protective duties in regard to agricultural machinery, practically £2,500,000 worth, which hitherto has been annually imported, will be manufactured in Australia. That is to say, certain first-class manufacturing firms from overseas will be encouraged to start here. I desire to know whether the door is to be unlocked, however, and foreign manufacturers afforded every access to the Australian market? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- There need be no fear of that. These machines are not being imported. {: .speaker-KEV} ##### Mr FENTON: -- Sometimes the variation between a duty of 2½ . per cent. and of 5 per cent. means all the difference between the success and failure of an industry. The Minister stated last night that blasting furnaces in Great Britain had been closed because manufacturers could obtain abundance of raw supplies from Belgium and Germany at lower rates than were represented by the cost of running the British furnaces. Australians ought to be careful that nothing is done which may eventually shatter the success of industries in this country. I am vitally interested in the matter. At Sunshine, which is in my electorate, 2,500 men are employed ; andit is a matter of great concern whether, owing to unrestricted dumping operations, Australian factories may not be closed down and the army of unemployed thus considerably swelled. As a. result of the imposition of fair and reasonable rates, worldrenowned firms may be induced to establish themselves in this country, and so provide employment for large numbers of Australian working men. {: #debate-10-s20 .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS:
Melbourne" Ports -- I would like the Minister **(Mr.** Greene) , to explain why he has submitted this motion. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Not one honorable member in the Committee knew what I was about to do. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- The Minister's reply does not placate me. When we saw the rediiction requested by the Senate, we thought that, as a Protectionist, the Ministry would adhere to the schedule as it left this Chamber. According to the honorable member for Wakefield **(Mr. Richard Foster),** it would make no difference if we let these articles in free, because overseas manufacturers cannot compete with the Australian article, but if 12440 *Customs Tariff* [REPRESENTATIVES.] *Bill.* that be the case, there is no reason for reducing the duty, even by £2, unless it might induce a certain amount of importation which would bring in revenue. I can hardly believe that the Ministry are afraid that senators will become annoyed at the refusal of all their requests, and see an opportunity of giving way to them when it really does not matter whether their request is granted or not. But that appears to be the case. If the Australian manufacturers of agricultural implements had. only been sensible, and asked originally for a £16 duty, they would have got it, and now we are told that despite the all-round rise in prices a duty of £12 is not necessary. I am not very conversant with the cost of production of every item covered by the schedule, but I know that pig iron can be bought in the United States for £5 per ton, whereas it costs £1 1 per ton in Australia, and that, in the United States, steel can be bought for £8 per ton, while it costs £16 10s. per ton here. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- Why should there be that big difference between the two countries in the price of pig iron? {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- I can well imagine the honorable member glorying inan attempt to pull to pieces an argument based on the fact that pig iron can be produced in America 100 per cent, cheaper than in Australia, but he would rather have men at work in America producing pig iron at £5 per ton than provide employment in Australia in the production of pig iron at £11 per ton. I do not think that the Minister is afraid of the Senate. We have spent years in trying to encourage the manufacture of these implements in Australia. This very duty has really made history in the Commonwealth. Yet, after all our trouble, we are now told that, despite the increase of prices all round, the local manufacturers can do with a duty of £2 less per machine. The article itself costs more to-day than it did in earlier days, and so does wheat; in fact, every article the farmer produces. When the Country party persist in parading their increased costs of production, let them not forget the fact that the people of Australia have cheerfully been paying1s.1d. and1s. 2d. per 4-lb. loaf of bread, and that they in turn are expected to submit cheerfully to the higher charges of which they are so frequently complaining. {: .speaker-K4M} ##### Mr ROBERT COOK:
INDI, VICTORIA · VFU; CP from 1920 -- The consumers are now eating butter at half the cost of production. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- The volume of milk produced within the last few weeks has been so enormous that the factories can scarcely handle it. The natural consequence has been a reduction in the price of butter. I am told that the price the grazier gets for his stock is below the cost of production, but as the consumers are not getting any advantage from that fact, some one else must be gettingit. Possibly it is the middlemen and profiteers who range themselves at election times alongside honorable members opposite. Prices all round have increased by 70 per cent. and even 80 per cent., and yet we are asked to believe that at the present time a £10 duty is as good as an £8 duty in days gone by. I do not know why the Minister has put forward such a contention. I doubt if the Corner party ever hoped for such a reduction. How is it that a Minister, who has been patted on the back for being so strong in his Protectionist proclivities, should now go back upon that great strength of mind he displayed in the earlier stages of the consideration of the Tariff ? If I am permitted to address a question to him, will he tell me why he has done this? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I have already told the Committee. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- I am notparticularly dense, but I certainly did not grasp the Minister's explanation, which possibly was given in the time I occupied in moving from one side of the chamber to the other. Does he agree with the honorable member for Wakefield that it will make no difference if there were no duty? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- These goods are not imported. They are all made in Australia. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- Would there be any likelihood of importations if we took off the duty altogether? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- There might be importations. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- Would there be any importations if the duty were fixed at £5? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- There might be. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- In other words, is the Minister out to get revenue ? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- No. There will be no machines imported under this duty. The honorable member need not worry on that score. *Customs Tariff* [3 November, 1921.] *Bill.* 12441 {: #debate-10-s21 .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- Then we might as well make the duty £20. Why did the Minister originally fix it at £12 ? Was it done for fun or to annoy his kith and kin sitting in the corner? Is the alteration now made to placate any one? {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- The Minister has supported some increases requested by the Senate, and surely a little consideration might be given to some of their requested reductions. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- Here we have the old suggestion that a Bouse which is not representative of the people, but only of areas, must be tickled under the chin or approached in a coy manner, because it has had the impertinence to make certainsuggestions about a matter with which it is not in any way concerned. Is this action on the part of the Minister an indication of what we are to expect from him later on ? I have heard one of the " dear old gentlemen " from another place speaking in the Queen's Hall in a very threatening manner in regard to this Chamber. I do not know whether or not he has been attacking the Minister and has gained his point, but it seems to me impossible that a responsible Minister of the Crown, who was specially appointed to bis office to bring into existence a Tariff designed to build up the industries of Australia, should be thwarted in his desire by the action of men who represent not people but only particular areas. I doubt if the House of Lords would have the effrontery to call upon the House of Commons to do what the Senate has asked us to do in this case. Perhaps the " dear old gentlemen " in the other place have said, " We will give you this trick if you will let us_take the next; but if you take two tricks in succession we also must take two." Are we to ruin the industrial life of Australia merely for the sake of pleasing the "dear old chaps" in another place? {: .speaker-K4M} ##### Mr ROBERT COOK:
INDI, VICTORIA · VFU; CP from 1920 -- Are they not representative of the people? {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- No. They merely represent areas. Little Tasmania returns to the Senate as many representatives as New South Wales. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Let us get on. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr MATHEWS: -- The honorable gentleman since the adjournment for dinner has done more to delay the final passing of the Tariff than has any honorable member of the Country party. I want an explanation as to why this action has been taken in respect of an item which more than any other in the Tariff has made our Protectionist policyf amous, and has led to a great constitutional case being determined by the High Court. The Country party seem to have achieved a great victory in having thus " collared " the Minister. Motion agreed to. Item 170- {: type="a" start="a"} 0. Earth and rook cutting, dredging, and excavating machinery, ad val., British, 27½ per cent.; intermediate, 85 per cent.; general, 40 per cent. *Senate's Request.* - General, 35 per cent. {: #debate-10-s22 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 .- I move - >That the requested amendment be not made. Honorable members will see that there are a number of related matters in this item, and that, with this one exception, the Senate has not requested an alteration of any of the duties as fixed by this House. I understand that this request was carried as the result of a catch vote, and that an attempt made immediately afterwards to carry requests for a reduction of the British preferential rate throughout the item was unsuccessful. The result is that we have this suggestion in respect to only one part of the item, while the rest is agreed to as passed by the Committee. That destroys the balance of the whole item, and we propose, therefore, not to accept the request. Motion agreed to. Item 171- >Machinery, machines, and appliances - {: type="a" start="a"} 0. Hay rakes, horse. . . . And on and after 1st January, 1921. . . . 1. Mowers. . . . And on and after 1st January, 1921 . . . *Senate's Request.* - Leave out " January " and insert " July " (twice occurring). Motion (by **Mr. Greene)** agreed to - >That the requested amendment be made. Item 171- >Machinery, machines, and appliances - {: type="a" start="d"} 0. Metal parts n.e.i. of hay rakes (horse), reapers and binders, and mowers . . And on and *after* 1st January, 1921, per lb., British, l¾d. ; intermediate, 2¼d., and on and after 16th June, 1921,. 2d.; general, 2¼d.; and on and after 16th June, 1921, 2d. ; or ad val., British, 30 per cent. ; intermediate, 40 per cent.; general, 45 per cent., whichever rate returns the higher duty. *Senate's Request.* - Amend sub-item to read " On and after 1st July, 1921, Metal parts n.e.i. of hay rakes (horse) and mowers, per lb., British, lid ; intermediate, 2d. ; general, 2d. ; or ad val., British, 30 per cent.; intermediate, 40 per cent. ;' general, 45 per cent., whichever rate returns the higher duty." {: #debate-10-s23 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 .- The amendment which the Senate has requested us to make does not carry out the intention of that House, nor does it do what is necessary. As the item was originally framed, it was intended that the metal parts of hay rakes, reapers and binders, and mowers should become dutiable on 1st January, 1921. Whilst reapers and binders became dutiable on 1st January, 1921, the hay rakes and mowers did not become dutiable until the. 1st July, 1921. It was intended by the amend ment which the Senate has requested us to make that the metal parts of hay rakes should be dutiable only as from 1st July; but the form of words used does not carry, out that intention. I am asking that the request be so amended as to give effect to the real intention of the Senate. I move - >That the requested amendment be made, with the following modification: - Omit sub-item (D), and insert the following: - > >Metal parts, n.e.i., of - > >Reapers and binders, on and after 25th March, 1920, ad val., British, free; intermediate, 5 per per cent.; general, 10 per cent. And on and after 1st January, 192.1, per lb., British, 1¾d.; intermediate, 2)d.; and on and after 16th June, 1921, 2d.; general, 2id.; and on and after 16th June, 1921, 2d.: or ad val., British, 30 per cent.; intermediate, 40 per cent.; general, 45 per cent., whichever rate returns the higher duty. > >Hay rakes (horse) and mowers, on and after 25th March, 1920, ad val., British, free; intermediate, 5 per cent.; general, 10 per cent. And on and after. 1st July, 1921, per lb., British, 1¾d. ; intermediate, 2d.; general, 2d.; or ad val., British, 30 per cent.; intermediate, 40 per cent.; genera], 4o per cent., whichever rate returns the higher duty. It will be seen that we are not proposing to interfere with the rates that were passed by this Committee and another place, but are making the necessary adjustments as to the dates on which they shall apply. {: #debate-10-s24 .speaker-KHG} ##### Mr HILL:
Echuca .- I should like to know from the Minister if it is possible to protect the farmer from misrepresentation in regard to duplicate parts. The duplicate parts that are made from' the imported hay rakes, reapers and binders, and mowers are generally fashioned of splendid material, and give great satisfaction ; but I myself have purchased parts for reapers and binders which have been represented to be imported parts, and which I have discovered by the manner in which they have worn were locally made. This has been acknowledged by the person who sold them to me, after a complaint had been made to him about them, and substantiated. For those parts I was charged the-prices charged for imported parts. On one occasion I purchased fingers for the carrying device on the Woods reaper and binder, which were represented to be imported but were locally made. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Were they sold by the agent of the imported machine? {: .speaker-KHG} ##### Mr HILL: -- Yes. I rather suspect that in many cases duplicate parts made in Australia are sold to the farmers as imported parts, and the farmers are charged for them as if they were imported parts. They thus pay an exorbitant amount for them, and often get a very poor article into the bargain. Can anything be done to prevent that? {: #debate-10-s25 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 .- The Commonwealth has not the power to legislate for the sale of goods within Australia, or to lay down the conditions under which articles should be sold, but the State Parliaments can legislate to prevent articles from being sold under false trade descriptions. Whether there are State laws which should prevent what the honorable member complains of, I cannot say. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- A means of prevention would be for the manufacturers abroad to put their trade mark on each part sent here. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Yes, and for Australian manufacturers to do the same. Buyers would then know what they were getting. We propose to introduce an amendment of the Commerce Act, if we get the opportunity, compelling the marking of goods imported into Australia *Customs Tariff* [3 November, 1921.] *Bill.* 12443 with the country of origin, wherever that is possible. These metal parts, or some of them, couldbe so marked. If they were marked in that way, it would prevent the deception of which the honorable member for Echuca complains. {: .speaker-KHG} ##### Mr Hill: -- For these duplicate parts we probably pay 200 or 300 per cent. more than the cost of the original parts. {: #debate-10-s26 .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY:
Dampier .- In my opinion, the Minister and the local manufacturers should have been contented with specific duties of1¾d. and and 2¼d. per lb. on duplicate parts without requiring *ad valorem* duties as well. A man who buys an imported machine is compelled to replace its parts from time to time, and the duties now proposed will make the cost of spare parts very high. At the present rate of exchange a nominal duty of 45 per cent. amounts to an actual duty of over 50 per cent., and the person buying parts has to pay from 100 to 150 per cent. more for them. I do not intend to move an amendment, but I enter a protest against what is being done. Motion agreed to. Item 177- {: type="A" start="A"} 0. Locomotives, traction engines, n.e.i. ..... ad val., British, 27½ per cent.; intermediate, 35 per cent. ; general, 40 per cent. Senate's *Request.* - British, 22½ per cent. {: #debate-10-s27 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 .- I move - >That the requested amendment be not made. The old duty was 25 per cent., butwe added 2½ per cent. to make up for the duty on the iron which enters into the manufacture of these machines, and we think that that increase should be retained. The manufacture of these engines is a very valuable industry to the country, and large numbers of engines are made here; but we are arranging to permit of the importation of certain classes of traction engines which are not made here. By-law's are now being framed to that end. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- Will those by-laws prohibit the manufacture of such engines in Australia? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Certainly not. If their manufacture is started in this country on commercial lines the by-laws will be cancelled, and the engines will become dutiable. {: .speaker-KHG} ##### Mr Hill: -- Does the Minister propose to exempt the huge traction engines which are used for hauling purposes on some of the sugar plantations in Queensland? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- The honorable member refers to engines having a winding drum, I think. {: .speaker-KHG} ##### Mr Hill: -- Yes. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- We propose to exempt them, as they are not made in Australia. I think, indeed, they are made in only one place in the world. {: #debate-10-s28 .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY:
Dampier .- When the item was last before the Committee mention was made of very heavy traction engines of a type not manufactured in Australia, and of a kind rarely used, but costing a large amount of money, so that the proposed duty would prevent their importation. I should like to know if the Minister proposes to do anything to remove them from the operation of the Tariff. Then again, light tractors are of great importance to the development of the country. The Minister promised that special investigations would be made regarding them. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- We are having investigations made, but they are not yet complete, the subject being a difficult one. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY: -- Will the Minister have power to make these light traction engines free if imported from Great Britain, and dutiable at 10 per cent. if brought here from other countries? Where there is level land so that these engines can be used economically, they are a great factor in the successful working of a farm. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- Wepropose to exempt heavy engines of the kind of which mention has been made, and perhaps the light traction engines which have been spoken of, under sub-item b - >Traction engines of a class or kind not made in Australia, as prescribed by departmental by-laws, ad val., British, free; intermediate, 5 per cent.; general, 10 per cent. Motion agreed to. Item 179- >Electrical machines and appliances - {: type="a" start="a"} 0. Electric heating and cooking appli ances, ad val., British, 30 per cent.; intermediate, 35 per cent.; general, 40 per cent. 1. Electric fittings consisting wholly or partly of metal, viz.: - Switches, fuses, and lightning arresters, n.e.i., ad val., British, 30 per cent.; intermediate, 35 per cent.; general, 40 per cent. , 12444 *Customs Tariff* [REPRESENTATIVES.] *Bill.* (C)Regulating, starting, and controlling apparatus, for all electrical purposes, including distributing boards and switchboards, n.e.i., ad val., British, 30 per cent.; intermediate, 35 per cent.; general, 40 per cent. And on and after 9th July, 1921- {: type="a" start="d"} 0. Dynamo electric machines; static transformers and induction coils for all purposes, unless otherwise expressly provided for; electric fans, ad val., British, 30 per cent.; intermediate, 35 per cent.; general, 40 per cent. *Senate's request -* {: type="a" start="a"} 0. British, 25 per cent. 1. British, 25 per cent. {: type="A" start="C"} 0. British, 25 per cent. 2. British, 25 per cent. {: #debate-10-s29 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 .- We are most anxious not to break down in any sense the protection we have given to the electrical industry. I do not know any industry that has made such strides as this one during the war. We are developing hydro-electric energy in several parts of Australia. We have the great Morwell scheme, which will lead to further development of electrical energy on a large scale. Of course, the industry is in its infancy at present, and it is subjected to fairly severe competition from abroad. Therefore we should retain the full measure of protection that the Committee has already agreed to. I move - >That the requested amendment be not made. Motion agreed to. Item 180- >Electrical and gas appliances, viz.: - > >(1) Gas meters, ad val., British, 30 per cent.; intermediate, 35 per cent.; general, 40 per cent. > >Electroliers; gasaliers; chandeliers; pendants; brackets; gas cooking and heating appliances, including gas ranges, ad val., British, 35 per cent.; intermediate, 40 per cent.; general, 45 per cent. > > *Senate's request -* > >British, 25 per cent. > >British, 30 per cent. {: #debate-10-s30 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I move - >That the requested amendment of sub-item (b), paragraph (1) be made, with the following modification : - Instead of "ad val., British, 25 per cent.", read "ad val., British, 274 per cent." This is one of the items which fall more or less automatically under the iron and steel duties, and we think it will be brought more into line with similar items in the Tariff by making the duty 27½ per cent. Motion agreed to. {: #debate-10-s31 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 .- I move - >That the requested amendment of sub-item {: type="a" start="c"} 0. be not made. This relates to an industry which has developed very much during the war, and it is highly desirable to retain the full amount of protection. Motion agreed to. Item 185 - {: type="a" start="a"} 0. Brake and plough screws; music stool, table, roofing, and spiral screws, ad val., British, 27½ per cent.; inter-" mediate, 35 per cent.; general, 40 per cent. *Senate's request -* {: type="a" start="a"} 0. British, 25 per cent. Motion (by **Mr. Greene)** agreed to - >That the requested amendment be made. Item 194- >Chain and chains, viz.: - > >Machine driving, sprocket and link belting, wholly or partly of malleable cast iron, including attachment repair or other links for such chain or chains, per lb., British, lid.; intermediate, 2½.d ; general, 2¼d. > >Machine driving, sprocket and link belting, n.e.i., including attachment repair or other links for such chain or chains, ad val., British, 30 per cent.; intermediate, 35 per cent.; general, 40 per cent. > >Chain, n.e.i., not made up into serviceable articles, ad val., British, free; intermediate, 5 per cent.; general, 10 per cent. > >And on and after 1st January, 1922, ad val., British, 30 per cent.; intermediate, 35 per cent.; general, 40 per cent. > > *Senate's request -* > >Per lb., British,1¼d. > >Ad val., British, 25 per cent. > >On and after 1st January, 1922, ad val., British, 25 per cent. {: #debate-10-s32 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I propose to accept the amendment to reduce the British preferential rate to *lid.* In regard to sub-items c and d, I ask the Committee to agree to a duty of 27½ per cent., acting exactly on the same line as *Customs Tariff* [3 November, 1921.] *Bill.* 12445 on other items of a similar character. I move - >That the requested amendment of sub-item {: type="a" start="b"} 0. be made. {: #debate-10-s33 .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY:
Dampier .- I wish the Minister would reconsider his decision. The cost of chains has risen to an extraordinary rate. They are used a great deal in the timber, farming, and mining industries. As a special favour, I ask the Minister, on behalf of these great industries, whether it is not possible to make the duty 25 per cent.? Motion agreed to. Motion (by **Mr.** Greene) proposed - That the requested amendment of sub-item {: type="a" start="c"} 0. be made with the modification - " British, ad val., 27½ per cent."; and that the requested amendment of sub-item (d) be made with the following modification: - "British, ad val., 27½ per cent." Question put. The Committee divided. AYES: 24 NOES: 12 Majority . . 12 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Motion agreed to. Item 211- >Printers' type .... ad. val., British, 22½ per cent.; intermediate, 30 per cent.; general, 35 per cent. > > *Senate'sRequest.* - British, 20 per cent.; intermediate, 25 per cent.; general, 30 per cent. {: #debate-10-s34 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I move - >That the requested amendment be not made. The duties, as they left this House, were a little higher than the duties on the raw material, but the duties requested by the Senate are lower than the actual duty on the raw material. Motion agreed to. Item 220- >Traps, viz.: . . . . (b) rabbit, ad val., British, 20 per cent.; intermediate, 25 per cent.; general, 30 per cent. > > *Senate'sRequest.* - General, 10 per cent: {: #debate-10-s35 .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 .- The Senate has requested that the general Tariff be reduced to 10 per cent., whereas it has left the British and the intermediate rates as passed by this Committee. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- Make the British duty 10 per cent. and let the others stand. {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I move- >That the requested amendment be not made. {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr Richard Foster: -- You know how this item was contested here? {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- I know that it was contested. {: .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr Richard Foster: -- And it will he again ! {: .speaker-KNF} ##### Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917 -- At the same time, all these traps are now being made here, and the Government think that the duties as now proposed are moderate, and just sufficient to enable the industry to get along. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWilliams: -- I hope that the Minister will agree to a British duty of 10 per cent. I take it that any request made by the Senate may be reconsidered by us in all its ramifications. {: .speaker-KZC} ##### Mr Hector Lamond: -- Surely that ruling has not been given? ' {: #debate-10-s36 .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWILLIAMS: -- I am asking for a ruling. I should like to know, **Mr. Chanter,** whether it is competent to now reduce the British duty to 10 per cent.? Is it within the province of this Committee to make alterations in the item, other than in the column to which the Senate's request refers ? {: #debate-10-s37 .speaker-JWY} ##### The CHAIRMAN (Hon J M Chanter: -- With a view of reducing them, yes. {: .speaker-JXA} ##### Mr Charlton: -- The only amendment that we have from the Senate to the duty as decided upon by this House is 10 per cent, in the general column in place of 30 per cent. The Minister has moved that this House disagree with that request. A question is now raised as to whether what has "been carried in this Committee, and not sought to be altered by the Senate, should be permitted to be reduced. I venture to say that we are compelled to deal only with the item in the third column to which the Senate's request relates. {: .speaker-KZC} ##### Mr Hector Lamond: -- I submit, **Mr. Chairman,** for your consideration before you rule upon this point, the effect of a decision that will enable a requested amendment by the Senate to re-open matters settled in this Committee after long discussion. Under the Constitution the Senate has no power to submit an amendment, but it has power to suggest to this House that certain amendments should be made. ! submit that this Committee is limited to the consideration of the amendment suggested by the Senate, or *to* a compromise between it and the decision of the House. If the procedure is otherwise, then one can see that every item mentioned by the Senate can be re-opened in all its ramifications, and we shall have a repetition of debates on matters that have been decided in this Committee after long debate. {: .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr Gregory: -- I submit that every item in the schedule is now before honorable members of this Committee, and in support of that contention I cite the precedent created 'here by the Minister for Trade and Customs **(Mr. Greene)** within the last few minutes. Those members of the Committee who are such sticklers for etiquette have allowed amendments to' be made in the phraseology of the schedule. That means that the whole item is now before the Committee. {: .speaker-JWY} ##### The CHAIRMAN (Hon J M Chanter: -- I do not know whether I am asked for a ruling on this subject, but I anr prepared to give one. The Tariff has been submitted to the Senate, and the Senate has sent down requests for the amendment of certain paragraphs. In this particular case the Senate's request relates to rabbit traps. There are three columns for this item, and the Senate thought fit to request an amendment in only one of those columns. It is quite competent, in my opinion, and it has been the practice of this Committee in the past, to make consequential 'amendments in the other columns. It would not be competent, as the honorable member for Illawarra **(Mr. Hector Lamond)** contends, to re-open the whole Tariff. The question is submitted to the Committee by the Senate for further consideration, and the items which come under the same denomination are open for discussion, alteration, amendment, or modification by this Committee. That has been the practice in the modifications that have already been made. I do not feel disposed to disturb the present practice, and rule accordingly. {: #debate-10-s38 .speaker-KFP} ##### Mr RICHARD FOSTER:
Wakefield -- I move - >That the words " not made " be left out with a view to the insertion in lieu thereof of the words " made with the modification, British, 10 per cent.; intermediate, 20 per cent.; general, 30 per cent." The Minister for Trade and Customs **(Mr. Greene)** knows very well that the debate in this Committee, when this item was last discussed, was very warm and protracted. There is no need to repeat it at great length. Is it not ridiculous to talk about an industry requiring protection when any blacksmith in any part of the country can start it to-morrow *1* ' There is just now threatening some parts of this country another plague of vermin that may devastate large regions. It is an outrage, in the circumstances, to talk of a 30 per cent, protection for rabbit traps because a man and a little boy have started the industry in a shed. I ask honorable members to exercise a little reason and common sense, and not to aggravate the people of this country, and particularly of those parts where the plague of rabbits comes every few years and devours everything within reach. There is no need for protection for rabbittraps. This sort of extravagant protection is an irritation to those unfortunate people whom we ought to represent in this Committee. {: #debate-10-s39 .speaker-KYI} ##### Mr PROWSE:
Swan .- I hope the Minister and the Committee will accept the amendment. The duty proposed will mean a heavy penalty on the destruction of rabbits, which do more damage than most people have any knowledge of. We have enough droughts fh Australia, but no drought is worse than a plague of rabbits. I regret that it is almost impossible to-day for people to fence out rabbits. This duty is intended to apply to a simple trap which can be made almost by anybody, and a heavy duty on it will prevent the destruction of the vermin. I support the amendment. {: #debate-10-s40 .speaker-JOS} ##### Mr BELL:
Darwin .- I hope the amendment will be carried. When this item was before the Committee previously, I spoke at some length regarding the devastation caused by rabbits in the States with which I am familiar. There is no doubt that it is necessary to attack that pest by every means a.t our disposal - traps, guns, dogs, poison, wire netting. I submit that without the combination of the wire netting and the trap 'we can hardly check the pest. I suggest that the protection proposed of 20, 25. and 30 per cent, is quite absurd for a. rabbit trap. It is an absurd protection, which no member of the Committee will say is necessary. The honorable member for Wakefield **(Mr. Richard Foster)** has correctly said that any blacksmith could make these traps; therefore, their manufacture cannot be dignified with the name of an industry. Of all the duties we have been" asked to agree to, this on rabbit traps is the most unreasonable, having regard to the necessity for providing all possible means of destroying vermin. {: #debate-10-s41 .speaker-KX9} ##### Mr WATKINS:
Newcastle .- If the arguments of honorable members who are in favour of a reduction of the duties -were correct it would not matter if the duty were 100 per cent., because every blacksmith in the country would be making rabbit traps. The fact is that a special steel is required for the springs, and at the invitation of this Parliament the best makers in the world are now manufacturing these traps in Australia, and they are entitled to a little protection, as is any firm which is induced to establish its business here. {: #debate-10-s42 .speaker-KFF} ##### Mr FOLEY:
Kalgoorlie .- I trust that the amendment moved by the honorable member for Wakefield will be carried. . In various parts of Australia the rabbit pest has been the means of driving many good pioneers off the land. The honorable member for Newcastle **(Mr. Watkins)** has argued that the additional duty will not mean very much extra expense to the farmer, but I sa> that it will not mean a very great addition to the returns of the manufacturer. Any ordinary blacksmith could make rabbit traps, but it would not pay him to do so. There is waste material in every iron foundry in Australia which could be utilized for this purpose, and there is no need to utilize a special quality of steel for the spring. Do the opponents of the amendment know what rabbit traps cost per dozen at the present time? In the southern portions of Western Australia the rabbit pest is very serious at certaintimes of the year. Some honorable members tell us that we should use poison, and" others say that the pest can be coped with only by dogs and shooting. As a matter of fact, it is necessary to use both poison and rabbit traps. At certain seasons of the year trapping is ineffective. Had the people who were driven off the land in New South Wales and Queensland treated the rabbit pest scientifically as it is now being treated, they would still be on their holdings. If this duty of 10 per cent, is imposed we shall add 2s. in the £1 to the cost of' rabbit traps to the farmer, because we know that every time a. duty is imposed- on any commodity somebody has to pay for it. Not only the manufacturer, but also the consumer, should get a fair deal. The honorable member for Newcastle has given the Committee no idea, of the local cost of production. On the other hand, the honorable member for Wakefield **(Mr. Richard Foster)** told the Committee on a former, occasion what rabbit traps are costing the users. I accept his definite information, and I have personal knowledge of the effect of the rabbits in a portion of Australia. If the Government wish to do anything to foster the manufacture of rabbit traps, let them give a bounty for every trap locally made, but if they place a further impost on the users of these traps they will be acting unfairly. By wiping out- these duties the Committee will be doing only a fair thing to people who have been on the land for many years under adverse conditions, and are at last beginning to do a little good for themselves. If they are prevented from further helping themselves by the extermination of rabbits, they will have to leave the land, and Australia will then have even fewer people in the back country than we have now. This is a question which particularly affects the. remoter districts of Australia. I should be glad if, even at this 12448 *Northern[REPRESENTATIVES.] Territory.* late hour, the Minister could see his way to alter his mind and accept the amendment. Question - That the amendment **(Mr.** The Committee divided. AYES: 16 NOES: 20 Majority . . . 4 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the negative. Amendment negatived. {: #debate-10-s43 .speaker-KFE} ##### Mr GREGORY:
Dampier .- I was wondering whether I would be in order in moving that from the 4th of November the importation of rabbit traps into this country should be prohibited. We ought to give the rabbits a chance. The only thing that surprises me is that a special duty has not been proposed on grasshopper traps. Motion agreed to. Progress reported. {: .page-start } page 12448 {:#debate-11} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-11-0} #### NORTHERN TERRITORY Ordinances {: #subdebate-11-0-s0 .speaker-KYD} ##### Mr POYNTON:
NAT -- The honorable member for Darling **(Mr. Blakeley)** had on the notice-paper for the day the fol lowing questions regarding Northern Territory Ordinances: - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Has trial by jury been abolished in the Northern Territory? 1. Has an Ordinance been gazetted which provides for the deportation of citizens from the Northern Territory? 2. Have men with large families and men with businesses been specially selected for prosecution, and have eleven men with families and two with dependants been recently imprisoned ? 3. Have 75 per cent. of the citizens of Port Darwin been disfranchised by the local Government Ordinances recently gazetted? 4. Were only three days allowed for enrolment on the municipal roll; if so, was this the cause of disfranchising men who were eligible to be enrolled? 5. Have the Ordinances recently gazetted provoked high feeling at Port Darwin, and are they likely to cause extreme action to be taken by the people? 6. Have drastic alterations been made in the working of the wharf and sorting sheds at Port Darwin; are six men required to do the work formerly carried out by eighteen men, and are these men working day and night to do the work? I am now in a position to supply the following answers: - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. Trial by jury in the Northern Territory has been abolished to the extent that indictable offences against any law of the Territory, other than offences for which the punishment is death, will in future be tried by a Judge without a jury. 1. An Ordinance to more effectively insure the observance of law in the Northern Territory has recently been passed. Amongst other things it provides for the removal from the Territory of persons guilty of persistently refusing or neglecting to pay Territorial income or land tax. This applies only to persons against whom judgment for non-payment of tax has been given, and who, after failure to satisfy such judgment within a reasonable period, have been served with a notice to pay, and fail, within thirty days from the date of such service, to comply with the notice. 2. No persons have been specially selected for prosecution. The law relating to payment of taxes has been administered with the strictest impartiality. Where, at the hearing of a prosecution, a defendant has satisfied the Court that he is *bond fide* unable to forthwith pay his tax in full, permission has been given for payment by instalments. Certain defendants have elected to undergo imprisonment in preference to payment of tax. Particulars are not at present available as to the number of dependants of persons who have been imprisoned. 3. The reduction in enrolment is considerably less than 75 per cent., and is not due solely to the amended franchise, which is now on a ratepaying basis, there having been a number of departures from Darwin in the meantime. 4. The roll was compiled hy the Darwin Town Council, to whom the new franchise conditions were duly communicated several weeks prior to the closing of the roll. Whilst only three days elapsed between the public notification issued by the, council and the closing oi the roll it is not a fact that only three days were allowed for enrolment. The greater portion of the enrolment under the new provisions of the law w&b effected prior to the public notification, lt is not considered that the shortness of the notice was a cause of disfranchisement. 5. The information I have received indicates that, since the passage of the new Ordinance, conditions in Darwin have assumed a much more peaceful aspect than hitherto, and that, in particular, there has been a marked improvement in the handling of ships' cargoes. 6. The Railway Department has taken over the handling of goods on the wharf and delivering them at the sorting shed. The same number of men will be employed on the wharf, and they will work the same hours as previously, but the number of men to be employed in the sorting ehcd will be reduced to four or six, who will work ordinary railway hours. The arrangement does not come into operation until the arrival of the first boat this month. House adjourned at 11.18 p.m.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 3 November 1921, viewed 22 October 2017, <>.