House of Representatives
5 May 1921

8^th Parliament · 1^st Session

QUESTION
- COTTON SEED AND BAW COTTON
QUESTION
- EXPORTATION” OF “WOOL
AMERICAN SHIP BUILDERS
QUESTION
- CLAIMS
QUESTION
- CLEANLINESS OF TELEPHONES
QUESTION
- EXPORT OF FRUIT, JAMS AND FLOUR
QUESTION
- BOOK POST
QUESTION
- MENTALLY AFFLICTED SOLDIERS
QUESTION
- TATTERS ALL’S SWEEPS
QUESTION
- MARIBYRNONG HORSEBREEDING ESTABLISHMENT
QUESTION
- BRITISH ARMY ACT
QUESTION
- COCKATOO ISLAND DOCK
QUESTION
- CHILD ENDOWMENT
QUESTION
- LIMITATION OF PROFITS: REFERENDUM
QUESTION
- WOOL-TOP OPERATIONS
QUESTION
- BRITISH ARMY ACT AND AUSTRALIAN DEFENCE ACT
QUESTION
- E’XPORT OF METALS: EMBARGO
MINISTERIAL STATEMENT
- Finance,Wheat, and Wool
- Ayes .. .. ..12
- Noes .. .. ..33
- Majority . . . . 21
EXPORTATION OF WOOL
PAPER

Mr. SPEAKER (Eon. Six Elliot Johnson) took the chair at 2.30 p.m., and read prayers.

page 8106

QUESTION

COTTON SEED AND BAW COTTON

Mr J H CATTS:
COOK, NEW SOUTH WALES

-*-During the very informative address tq members of both Houses made last night by the Queensland cotton expert, it was stated that there is a danger of pests, from which Australia is now free, being imported from other countries with cotton seed. As we are on the eve of developing the culture of cotton, I ask the Minister for Trade and Customs whether he will take immediate steps to prevent the introduction of cotton seed that is not free from pests and diseases ?

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Action has been already taken by my Department to that end, and no cotton seed can be imported except with the permission cf the Government, and then it must be planted within the quarantined area.

Mr BOWDEN:
NEPEAN, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Have arrangements been made for the fumigation of raw cotton, on its importation into this country, to prevent the spread of diseases t

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I am not aware, but I shall make inquiries, and let the honorable member know.

page 8107

QUESTION

EXPORTATION” OF “WOOL

Mr WEST:
EAST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Yesterday the Leader of the Government in another place gave the information that it was intended to move a certain motion there in reference to a statement similar to that made in this House by the Prime Minister (Mr. Hughes). Will not the Leader of the Government here pay us the courtesy of saying what action is intended to be taken in this Chamber?

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I propose very shortly to bring a concrete proposition before the House for its consideration.

Mr HIGGS:
CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND

– I wish to know from the Minister for Trade and Customs if, when what is known as the Bawra s:heme has been adopted, the wool-growers of Central Queensland may continue to export their wool from Rockhampton, or must they, as during the war, send it to Brisbane for export?

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– If Parliament agrees to the proposals of the Government, there will be nothing to prevent the exportation of wool from any port in the Commonwealth, so long as the conditions prescribed are complied with.

Mr J H CATTS:

– Will the Acting Prime Minister state whether the Government have decided to give effect to their wool proposal by means of a Bill, or by a series of resolutions as indicated by the

Minister for Repatriation (Senator E. D. Millen) in another place, so that the House may be enabled to vote on the question ?

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The matter at the moment has not been quite definitely decided. We shall deal with the proposals by means of a Bill, or a series of. resolutions which, in themselves,- will be very like a short Bill. I hope, during the day, to bc able to submit them to the ‘ House.

page 8107

-The question should be put to the Postmaster-General. No doubt the honorable member will find many anomalies of a similar kind should he look far enough. We cannot pretend to rectifv them all, and in the meantime we need all the revenue that we can get.

Mr Blakeley:

– This is the second evasion of the question.

Later :

Mr BLAKELEY:

– I desire to ask the Acting Prime Minister whether it is a fact that the Commonwealth Taxation Department collects 10 per cent, on all Tattersalls sweep prizes ?

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I cannot remember the exact provisions of the Act, but I think the honorable member correctly states the position. I suggest that he put his question on the notice paper, so that I may give him a correct reply.

page 8108

QUESTION

MARIBYRNONG HORSEBREEDING ESTABLISHMENT

Mr LIVINGSTON:
BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– I desire to ask the Assistant Minister for Defence whether he will obtain a report of the cost of the horse-breeding establishment at Maribyrnong and the revenue derived from it up to date?

Sir GRANVILLE RYRIE:
Assistant Minister for Defence · NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– I shall be glad to obtain for the honorable member the information which he seeks.

page 8108

QUESTION

BRITISH ARMY ACT

Mr J H CATTS:

– Will the Acting Prime Minister make available for the perusal of honorable members copies of the’ British Army Act?

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I am afraid I cannot do so. I understand that there are some copies available in the Library, but that there is not in Australia a sufficient number to enable every honorable member to be supplied with a copy. I do not know very much about the Act, but I am told it is a library in itself, and that’ to reprint it would, therefore, involve great cost.

Mr Brennan:

– It is easier then to adopt the provisions of the Act than to read them?

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I do not know about that.

Mr J H Catts:

– Every line of it will be read if it comes here.

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Then it must not comehere.

page 8108

QUESTION

COCKATOO ISLAND DOCK

Relief of Distress

Mr. BURCHELL (for Mr. Austin

Chapman) asked the Minister for the Navy, upon notice -

Is it a fact that much distress exists owing to the dismissal of nearly all the men at Cockatoo dock?
If so, as it is reported that the manager has stated that there is plenty of useful employment waiting to be done to complete necessary work there, will the Minister obtain sanction from the Treasury to have this work carried out without delay, so as to relieve any existing distress?

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
Minister for the Navy · DENISON, TASMANIA · NAT

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

It has been reported that considerable distress exists in Sydney owing to unemployment, but this cannot be attributed solely to the dismissal of men from the Cockatoo Island Dockyard.
The whole question of shipbuilding at Cockatoo Island is under consideration, and it is hoped that construction will be resumed as soon as existing circumstances permit.

page 8109

QUESTION

CHILD ENDOWMENT

Mr FENTON:

asked the Acting Prime Minister, upon notice -

Whether the child endowment applies to employees in the Government industrial undertakings and those employed on the temporary stairs in the various Government offices?
If the endowment is not conceded to such employees, why not?

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow: -

Child endowment is not applied to employees in Government industrial undertakings or to temporary employees paid under outside trade awards.
It is not considered that the principle is applicable to industrial undertakings, &c, where the conditions must approximate to those observed in outside industries.

page 8109

QUESTION

LIMITATION OF PROFITS: REFERENDUM

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

asked the Acting Prime Minister, upon notice -

Whether he will give the people of Australia the opportunity of recording a vote by referendum upon- the question of limitation of profits upon the foods, wheat, meat,. and sugar?

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– There would appear to be no necessity for this. There are many agencies at work in the States on this problem.

page 8109

QUESTION

WOOL-TOP OPERATIONS

Mr FENTON:

asked the Acting Prime Minister, upon notice -

Whether the Government has yet received its quota of the profits in connexion with the wool-top operations in association with Messrs. V. W. Hughes and Company?
Whether the profits of the Federal Gor vernment amounted to £500,000?
What profits did the company named make in connexion with the same transaction which was arranged by the Prime Minister?
What quantity of wool was dealt with, and what was the value of same in its raw state?

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Inquiries are being made in connexion with this matter, and a further reply will be furnished to the honorable member as soon as possible.

page 8109

QUESTION

BRITISH ARMY ACT AND AUSTRALIAN DEFENCE ACT

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

asked the Minister representing the Minister for Defence, upon notice -

Is it a fact that under the British Army Act and the Australian Defence Act officers simply fill in a form but do not take the oath of allegiance to His Majesty the King, and that non-commissioned officers and men must take the oath?
Is it a fact that during the great war the Army regulations were altered to permit of men saluting officers with either the right or the left hand, a privilege previously permitted only to officers?
Is it a, fact that this practice was altered in Australia by promulgation of Commonwealth regulations as extracts from the British Army Act?
In view of the case of Captain E. Edwards (Eichengrun) and others, will the Minister issue instructions to make the present procedure .democratic by compelling all members of the Defence Forces (Military and Naval) to take the same oath without any differentiation ?

Sir GRANVILLE RYRIE:
NAT

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow: -

Yes.
No, but an amendment to the King’s Regulations provided for the right-hand salute on all occasions except when impossible through physical incapacity, when the lefthand salute is to be given. 3:. The Australian Regulations were amended to conform with the King’s Regulations in this respect.-
No. The oath of allegiance forms part of the oath of enlistment to serve for a definite period, while an officer is not required to enlist and holds the King’s Commission.

page 8109

QUESTION

E’XPORT OF METALS: EMBARGO

Mr BLAKELEY:

asked the Acting Prime Minister, upon notice -

Whether it is a fact that there is an embargo on the exportation of metals; and, if so, what metals are affected, and to what extent?

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The proclamation under the Customs Act prohibiting the exportation of metals without the consent of the Minister for Trade and Customs is still in force, but consent is granted in every case where the contract relating to the sale of the metals has been registered with the Australian Metal Exchange.

page 8110

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

Finance,Wheat, and Wool

Debate resumed from 4th May (vide page 8064), on motion by Mr. Hughes -

That the following paper be printed: - Wool -Resolutions of a meeting of wool-growers held at Parkes, New South Wales, on the 23rd April, 1921, with reference to the wool-growing industry.

Mr RILEY:

There are signs that money is more plentiful, as a result, no doubt, of the Federal dis- bursement of nearly £16,000,000 to last seaBon’s, wheat-growers; but the depressed state of the market for wool, meat, hides, and metals has caused some uneasiness in the minds of those who have money to invest. The fear of English labour disturbances,, too, has been an important factor in restricting the flow of money to the Stock Exchange; but the likelihood of a general strike in Great Britain is now happily over, and the commercial situation appears at the moment to be more cheer-“ ful than for months past. Of course, it is too early as yet to predict .an improvement, but there are certainly grounds for hoping that matters are on the mend. The most notable’ sign of a cheering character is the reappearance - for the first time since the Armistice - of buyers of wool for Central Europe. Before the war, Germany and Austria were very large importers of our wool, which they would export again in the form of manufactured articles of all descriptions, and the quantity they could buy depended, not so much on what was required for their own use as the extent of their ability to re-export manufactured goods to other countries. But since the war Central Europe has been in “a state of virtual bankruptcy; having little or nothing to export, they have not even been able to buy from other countries the material they sorely need for their own consumption.

Mr FLEMING:

– The suggestion has appeared in print more than once.

Mr Bell:

– I have heard it said that it might pay to destroy the Bawra wool, but no such proposal has actually been made.

Mr FLEMING:

– I have more than once seen the suggestion in print that it should be destroyed. To do that would be to return .to the dark ages. Another scheme is that the wool should be held over. That, too, would be extremely dangerous. If we hold it over, the result will be that manufacturers will refrain from buying our free wool.’ What business man would come in and buy our free wool when he knew that there were tremendous reserves of Bawra which might fee brought into the market at any time? Such a proposal is opposed to all business principles. A man would not think of manufacturing goods from our free wool when he knew that at practically any moment the Bawra reserves might be placed on the market and that his competitors would be able to come in and buy at rates which would enable them to greatly undersell him? I repeat that the Bawra wool should be absorbed by Central Europe, and that we should leave our people here a free market to dispose of the fresh wool. The honorable member for Grampians (Mr. Jowett) will bear me out when I say that the new wool will naturally bring a little more than the Bawra wool.

Mr Jowett:

– It is better wool.

Mr FLEMING:

– Yes; it will be in greater demand, since it has more life in it, is more responsive to treatment, and consequently, will make better cloth.

– That is pure speculation. There were only negotiations, and what would have been the outcome we do not know.

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I do not think that the proposal brought forward by the Government will help us out of the difficulty. Any proposal is worthy of consideration, but I agree with the honorable member for Cowper (Dr. Earle Page) and. the honorable member for Balaclava (Mr. Watt) that the scheme that has been put before us will not provide a solution of the problem.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– The Prime Minister said the same.

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– We should have a greater guarantee of a solution if we were to adopt the suggestion of the honorable member for Gwydir (Mr. Cunningham), who interjected when the honorable member for Grampians (Mr. Jowett) was speaking, that the. best plan would be to’ hold Bawra wool off the market for two or three years. The honorable member for Grampians replied that he believed that that would be the best solution. Later on, the honorable member for Kooyong (Sir Robert Best) came into the House and repeated the same proposal.

Sir Robert Best:

– From what I read in the press I thought that the honorable member for Gwydir proposed that the Government should buy out the whole of the carry-over wool for £20,000,000. I suggested financing Bawra to enable it to buy out the British interest, and, if necessary, that the Commonwealth should do so.

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– That was the suggestion of the honorable member for Gwydir (Mr. Cunningham), and it seems to me that the honorable member for Kooyong should have apologized to that honorable member for having stolen his thunder. However, wherever the proposal emanated, it is the only remedy likely to be really effective in the direction of what we desire. I have a great many small growers in the constituency I represent who have had a particularly bad time for the past two or three years; but, of course, we all realize that anything which affects- the interests of all who are engaged in the wool industry reflects upon the whole community. ..Our desire is to prevent the bottom falling out of the wool market through throwing an over-supply into consumption, for the benefit of unscrupulous ‘ speculators, and the proposal put forward is that we should so regulate our sales so as to prevent that happening. But the Government scheme will not be effective in doing this. The only remedy likely to prove successful is that put forward by the honorable member for Gwydir - to buy out the British interest in this carry-over wool, and keep the wool off the market for a period of, say, two years. The proposal of the honorable member was criticised by the honorable member for Robertson (Mr. Fleming), but his only criticism was that people would hold off in the belief that in six months’ time Bawra might decide to put the wool on the market. That difficulty could be obviated by fixing the period at two years, which would prevent the flooding of the market feared by the honorable member for Robertson. At any rate, the proposal of the honorable member for Gwydir is well worthy of further consideration.

There is no need for us to take a gloomy view of the outlook. There is every prospect that as the result of .the present difficulty efforts will be made by enterprising people in Australia, assisted by the Government, to launch out in the direction of establishing woollen mills in every State. In this way we may be able to get away from the foolhardy policy of sending our raw material overseas, and again importing it in the form of manufactured goods. I understand that at present we consume not more than 2 per cent, of our own wool. That is a position from which we should escape at the earliest possible moment. If the predicament in which we are placed .to-day assists us to go in more largely for the manufacturing of our raw material by- the establishment of woollen mills, the tangle of the present moment will not be without its bright side.

One great benefit from stabilizing the wool market will be that we shall know exactly the price manufacturers are paying for the wool which is used in the manufacture of the clothes we wear. The excuse offered by those who made exorbitant profits during the war period was -that higher prices had to be .paid for raw material. We know that the additional cost of the wool in a suit of clothes was not more than 5s. However, they will ‘no longer be able to make that excuse. We shall know exactly what they are paying for the amount .of wool -that goes into our wearing material, and we shall be able to prevent the exploitation which has been proceeding for a considerable time past. The Government have been aware of this exploitation - the Acting Prime Minister told us yesterday that the value of the wool in a suit of clothes does not exceed 7s. or 8s. - yet they did not raise a little finger on behalf of the people to prevent it. The stabilization of the industry will enable the people to know exactly the price they pay for the amount of wool that goes into their wearing material.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– We have always known it. Wool has always been bought at auction.

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– But it is remarkable that the statements of manufacturers here and elsewhere- that the increase in the price of clothing has been due ,to the increase in the price of wool have always been accepted.

I quite realize that the Government cannot keep the 1,700,000 bales of carryover wool off the market, because the British Government are interested in it; but the difficulty could be overcome by adopting the remedy suggested by the honorable member for Gwydir. The small producers of wool are interested in keeping the Bawra wool off the market, in order to prevent that glut .for which the speculators of the world are so anxiously waiting. Undoubtedly the world is teeming with speculators on .the watch for the bottom to fall out of the wool market, so that they can purchase our wool, and later on sell it again at fancy prices. »”This would land us in difficulties again. We must prevent it, not only in the ‘interests of the small .growers, but also in the interests of the large .’growers and the whole community. The market must he stabilized ; but I do not think it can be effectively done by adopting the proposals of the Government.

Mr HAY:
New England

.-It is regrettable, that honorable members waste so much time an recriminations when dealing with such an important question. The (present outlook is certainly gloomy, but honorable members should cast their minds back to the period following the outbreak of war, when- there was great depression, and when the prices of wool and other commodities were tumbling in all directions. The lack of shipping was one of the chief causes of that depression, but the British Government came along, and purchased our raw materials at very satisfactory prices, and paid in cash - as a matter of fact, even ‘before our goods were delivered. To a certain extent, we have been spoon-fed by the British Government for a number of years. A situation has now arisen similar to that which arose after the Napoleonic wars. Great disturbances always follow great wars, and history always repeats itself. It is true that it took many years for the world to recover stability after the Napoleonic wars, but conditions are different to-day. Through interchange of commerce, through shipping, and in a thousand other ways, the spaces of the world have, more or less, contracted, and so it is to be hoped the gloomy period we are now facing ‘ will soon pass away. Although the sky is grey to-day, the sun will shine again, and if we put our best efforts and best thoughts into all our undertakings, I have no- doubt it will not be very long before the sun- will- shine again. I am rather sanguine about the future. I have always- been, an optimist. I am. now what one might call a conservative optimist.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– One need go no further back than the Franco-Prussian war for instances of the kind.

Mr ATKINSON:

– That is so. The people most interested in the Bawra wool urge us to adopt this scheme, and it is obvious also that special action must be taken to keep the wool industry of Australia going. Unfortunately, too many of our growers at the present time are in a sad financial position, and badly need to obtain the returns from their free wool. It is all very well to say that’ the proceeds of the sale of the Bawra wool will represent wholly profits, but I am afraid that by the time that the wool is disposed of those of the growers most in need of money to-day will not have very much coming to them from that source. They will need a good deal more than they actually receive from Bawra.

The growers are very anxious that this scheme should be carried out, and, therefore, I think it should be given a trial. Should it fail, it will be open to us to say that we followed the advice of those best able to determine what course should be pursued. Honorable members, in speaking of mistakes made in years gone by, very often forget to criticise the actions of which they complain in the light of the conditions actually obtaining when those actions were taken. I have heard some honorable members charge the Government with having practically robbed the wool-growers because of their failure to get better prices during the war. I was a member of this House during the war period, and, knowing what the wool position was at that time, I do not hesitate to say that the Government did what was best in the- circumstances. Some of the largest wool-growers that I have been able to consult share that view. They are perfectly satisfied with what was done by the Government. We should not have been able to ship our wool if the British Government had not come to our assistance, and, even had we been able to shift it to the United States of America, a great deal of it probably would have found its way to Germany. The chances are that German agents in America would have secured a good deal of our wool. All fair-minded men must recognise that the Government did what was best in the circumstances in respect of both our wool and our wheat, and 1 am prepared now to give them the necessary support to enable them to meet the Bawra proposition.

Before concluding my speech I desire to refer to the question qf economy, to which reference was made by the Prime Minister (Mr. Hughes) in opening this debate. Like many other honorable members, I was returned to this House at the last general election pledged to the policy of economy. Economy was a plank in the platform of the Ministerial party, as well as in that of the Country party,’ and the Government, accepting the position they took up on that occasion, must make a serious effort to economize. I listened attentively to the Prime Minister’s statement, and the conclusion I formed was that he was convinced that wherever possible savings should be effected. It seemed to me that he considered we had reached a stage at which it was necessary, to exercise rigid economy in every Department. If the Government do that, I do not think they will encounter any difficulty when the Budget statement is submitted. If, however, they make no serious attempt to economize, with the result that they do not get the support upon which they have hitherto been able to rely, they will have only themselves to blame. The fault will rest not with the honorable member who carries out his election pledges, but with the Government for departing from those made by them. I .am not going to say that the Treasurer (Sir Joseph Cook) will not attempt economies. I believe he is thoroughly in earnest in his desire to effect economy, and that when the Budget is presented we shall find that the Government have done as much as couldreasonably be expected in the direction of reducing our national expenditure. Aus- tralia to-day occupies .a peculiar position. The situation in regard; to our wool ois alone sufficient to show us that we cannot hope, in the. future, to obtain anything like the revenue we are now deriving! through the Customs and the Income. Tax Departments.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– We have not yet touched the last shilling,

Mr ATKINSON:

– And I do not desire that Australia shall be reduced to the last shilling.. This is not a time for reckless spending. It is, rather, a time for “doing without” and. for. the practice of real economy. While I hold that view, I do not say that where the prospects are favorable the Government should not assist people to develop the country. The Government should be particularly ready to assist our returned soldiers to develop our big primary industry, or to assist in mining development, which may open up a big asset’, rather than spend money on relief works which are usually unproductive. Relief works in cases of ser,ious unemployment are, no doubt, necessary,, but there are better means of employing labour. Such works are frequently provided’ in our large cities,, whereas a far better return, from the money so expended might be obtained in country districts. While I urge that we should practise economy, I do not suggest parsimony. The Government announced’ at the last general election that they would avoid unnecessary expenditure, and I intend, so far as I can, to keep themup to that policy

Mr CUNNINGHAM:
Gwydir

.. - I have listened with a good deal of attention to the views expressed during this debate from all sides of the House,’ and, as the representative of one of the largest wool-growing districts in Australia, I am naturally interested in the disposal of our wool. The Prime Minister (Mr. Hughes), in opening the debate, rather overstated the seriousness of the position. We certainly ought not to be too optimistic,, but it is well known that the Prime Minister is a scaremonger and an alarmist. He stampedes the country and then poses as having saved the people from something which actually never existed. It is well, therefore, that we should not be carried away by his final utterances in this House- prior to his departure for England. It seems to- me that, on that occasion he followed, his usual course of overstating the seriousness of the position.

I am not in. favour of the. proposals which the Government have submitted, and- 1 believe- that they are based upon an insufficient knowledge, of the facts. Much, relating to this subject has appeared in the press from the pens of interested’ parties ; and- even the Acting Prime Minister (Sir Joseph Cook) stated yesterday that a good deal of the advice which- had been offered to the Government had not been of a disinterested, character. It was only to be expected that buyers would endeavour to depress the market and to stampede the Government. Now .that the matter has been taken up by the Government, it becomes a national responsibility, and consequently those who. are interested in securing wool at the lowest ..possible rate will do all they can. to lead -the Government to believe that We shall .be in a hopeless position unless the whole of the Bawra wool is unloaded on a market which is at present glutted,, within a very short’ period. In order to strengthen that argument, I’ should like- to draw attention to a press account of wool sales held’ in Great Britain on the- 3rd’1 May: While’ we on this* side of the House stand second to none in our respect and admiration for the British Government, and the British people generally, we know that there are private interests in ‘Great Britain not above exploiting the people of Australia to the greatest extent in their power. The press report of these wool sales informs us that a general increase of 10 per cent, had taken place, but it is significant to notice -

Greasy merinos realized 10 per cent, above April closing rates, scoureds from 5 to 10 per cent., and medium to fine crossbreds 7£ to 10 per cent. - almost all taken by the Continent.

In another part of the newspaper it is stated that English buyers did not operate to ,any extent.; and, I believe that these people would like to see the wool market collapse. It is to our interests, just as it is in the interests of other industries which deal with perishable goods, to have cold stores and other means to prevent gluts - to withhold goods from the market, and thus evade the effects of an over supply for the time being. That is why, When the honorable member for Grampians (Mr.. Jowett) was speaking a few days ago, I suggested that, as we have a partner in the Bawra wool - a partner who is insisting on the wool being unloaded on the market - we should, as happens in any other partnership business, when one’s partner does not agree, sell out to ,him, or .buy him out, and get control. If the British Government insist on placing this wool on the market, whether we like it or not, we should take the necessary . steps to come to .some arrangement with the British Government in order to acquire their interest in the wool, and thus place the control of the fine merino wool of the world entirely in Australian hands. We could then, if we liked, withhold it from sale until a favourable opportunity presented itself for placing it on the market. I .am told by some that this is an impracticable scheme, because it cannot Be financed. That is to belittle Australia; I do not think we are so barren of statesmanship that we cannot finance a transaction of this character. The result of not being able to come to an agreement with the British Government is that, if they insist on unloading the wool, the market will be depressed to an. undue extent, and there will be great financial loss to the people of Australia-. That loss will not only be felt by the grazing industry, but will extend to other industries;, which, under our modern scheme of civilization, fit in like cogs in a machine. As an illustration let us look to the banks, which, let me say, are not disinterested parties in this matter. Their overdrafts and mortgages are largely on the lands of Australia, and they are the financiers of .the small growers. Anybody of experience knows that in a period of depression such as this - a depression which, in my opinion, is only temporary - it is possible for banks to order their customers to reduce their overdrafts. If a .customer - has been dealing with a bank practically .all his life, and he is asked to .reduce his overdraft in a period of depression, he has to :sell his stock or wool for less than it is worth. It is not possible for such a man to go to any other bank for financial assistance. Even if this proposal of the Government is carried out, there will still be need for immediate steps to finance the small growers and tide them over the depression, so that they may not be forced by the banks to dispose of their properties. It is the duty of the .Government to take such steps, because .the resources of the nation should be at the command of any industry that is vital to the interests of the whole community. This is necessary in order to save industry, prevent disaster to the people, and to protect our financial stability .and preserve o.ur credit, not only within our own borders, but throughout the whole world.

– Britain desires to sell the wool. Let us say to the Imperial Government, “Rather than that you should sell the wool piece-meal, unloading a few thousand bales at a time and thereby depressing the market, we will buy outthe whole of your interest at the appraised value.” The honorable member for Grampians. (Mr. Jowett) intimated that the British interest would probably be purchasable at about 5d. per lb. I believe that the carry-over wool is mostly of inferior quality. If that be so, and the average weight of a bale is 450 lbs., the amount of money required to purchase the British interest will not be more thanfrom £8,000,000 to £10,000,000. We know that the injudicious unloading of £10,000,000 worth of wool on the market in competition with our new clip will lead to a collapse in values. I do not think the Commonwealth is so bankrupt that it cannot finance the deal I am suggesting. If any honorable member were in partnership with a man who insisted upon selling at the wrong time, he would either sell out, or buy out his partner.We cannot sell out; we should, therefore, buy out the other fellow, who desires to sell, in order that we may be able to stabilize the market and give our primary producers a fair chance.

Mr.Rodgers. - That would accentuate our trouble.

Mr CUNNINGHAM:

– Are not trusts and combines formed in order to acquire products and withhold them from the market? A lot of twaddle has been talked by honorable members opposite about flying in the face of the law of supply and demand. That law does not operate to-day. The Steel Trust and the Wheat Trust in America can and do create artificial demands and shortages.

Mr.Rodgers. - The honorable member is suggesting another combine.

Mr CUNNINGHAM:

– Whereas the operations of private trusts and combines are in the interests of individuals, my proposal is in the interests of the whole community and is designed to protect a big section engaged in one of our great primary industries. Let me warn Great Britain that, whilst she may acquire our clip at less than the cost of production, she cannot force men, who are able to get out of the industry, to continue producing wool. It would be a great loss to Great Britain if the wool industry of Australia collapsed. The British people would suffer as much as, if not more than, we should, and, having regard to the fact that Britain is to-day in the throes of industrial warfare, it behoves her to look well to herself if she is to weather the storm. I am not in accord with those honorable members who have said that Britain spoon-fed us during the war. If she did spoon-feed us, how is it that she owns a half-share in a couple of million bales of Australian wool? Though the wool-growers received a good price for their product during the war period in comparison with the pre-war price, the conditions in Australia to-day are changed. As a result of Australia’s participation in the war we have to face an enormous national debt, and the extra price received from the wool will be insufficient to pay the extra taxation placed on the wool-grower in order to meet the interest on our war bill. Although the price we received for our wool during recent years was an advance on the pre-war price, yet it was much lower than the price received by every other country from which Great Britain bought wool.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– She paid a big price to us when the condition of the market was unknown.

Mr CUNNINGHAM:

– We ought to inspire a confidence in the impoverished peoples of the Central Powers that will induce them to utilize the wool we have grown, and which should be put into use in order to clothe them, and provide them with the employment which will enable them to purchase the raw materials they require. The honorable member for Balaclava gave us last night a very interesting outline of the methods by which a scheme for doing this might be financed, and I am pleased to note the general feeling in the Chamber that trade ought to be resumed with the Central Powers. It proves that the stand taken up by the Labour party is correct. Of course, during the war sane reasoning was dispensed with and the refusal to trade with the enemy countries was a good jingoistic cry which served to stir up the passions of the people, but it is a matter for regret that leading public men must either eat their own words or persist in an attitude which is likely to bring disaster to a big section of the people of Australia, who naturally look to the head of the Government to be watchful of their interests in international matters.

– That is the position. Many sheep-owners paid as much as 30s. per head to keep their flocks alive. In any provincial newspaper honorable members will find advertisements of forced sales where mortgagees have foreclosed. They will see : “ The Bank of So-and-so has foreclosed “ and. in such a case, if the stock are followed to their destination, many of the sheep will be found on land owned by this particular bank. That is why the Labour party advocate the nationalization of banking. Power ought to be given to thi Commonwealth Bank to stand behind these small men, just as the New South Wales Government stood behind- the farmers last year to the extent of £i,000,000. The Premier of New South Wales declared that he would not allow any man to be hunted off the land. Many persons were waiting for mortgagees to foreclose. Their credit having gone, they had no money to enable them to carry on ; but the assistance given by the State Government enabled them to tide over the time of trouble. As a result, a magnificent crop was harvested. It saved the people of the State from a financial debacle. This is a matter whch should engage the attention of the Commonwealth Ministry at the earliest possible opportunity. If necessary, arrangements should be made by the Commonwealth Bank to take up the securities of these men who are threatened with foreclosure by the private banks. Every fair-minded man will admit this is necessary in the interests of the whole community. As I am not satisfied with the proposals of the Acting Prime Minister (Sir Joseph Cook), and as he has said that he thinks they will end in failure, I move -

That the following words be added to the motion : - “ and in the opinion of this House it is advisable that the Government immediately enter into negotiations with the Imperial authorities for the purpose of having all B.A.W.R.A. wool withheld from sale for a period of at least two years.”

In conclusion I would emphasize the point that this is the most serious situation with which Australia has been confronted since the banking crisis of 1893, and that it is the duty of every honorable member to deal with the question from an Australian, and not from a party, standpoint. I have endeavoured to deal with it from a national point of view. . I have no desire to make party political capital “out of it. I want, if possible, to assist the Australian wool-grower, knowing that by helping the most important industry in the Commonwealth I shall thus assist every section of the community. I recognise that not only the wool-growers but every section of the community will suffer unless measures be taken to stabilize the wool-growing industry, and to avert the ruin which seems to be inevitable if something in that direction be not done.

Mr FRANCIS:
Henty

.- There can be no doubt that this question has been discussed, and rightly discussed, from a national and not from a party point of view. It is the desire of those-

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– May I interrupt the honorable member. 1 desire to bring down immediately a series of resolutions connected with this question, so as to avoid two debates upon it.

The SPEAKER (Hon Sir Elliot Johnson:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Order! If the honorable member, ber for Henty resumes his seat he will forfeit his right to speak.

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– But I am going to submit a series of resolutions which will give rise to another debate on the same matter almost immediately, and the honorable, member will be able to address himself to those questions.

Mr SPEAKER:

– There is already a motion and an amendment before the Chair.”

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– And we can, if necessary, dispose of them now by a vote.

Mr SPEAKER:

– Very well.

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The wool sales commence on Monday, and I am proposing to proceed with this matter by a series of resolutions. I therefore ask the honorable member for Gwydir (Mr. Cunningham) to consent to the withdrawal of his amendment for the time being. If he does so, there will be no restriction of his right, later on, to raise the very question which his amendment involves. The series of resolutions that I propose to submit will open up the whole subject, and whatever he may want to do now p.an just as readily be done then. I am merely suggesting the postponement of his proposal until we come to deal with the series of resolutions which I intend to submit immediately. In that way we shall avoid a double debate on the same subject.

Mr Cunningham:

– I will not withdraw my amendment.

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Then perhaps the House will agree that a vote be taken forthwith on the amendment and the motion. When that is done, we shall be able to get on with the resolutions.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

.- I desire, by way of personal explanation, to say that I shall vote against the amendment if the carrying of it would mean tying up the whole of the Bawra wool for two years. Would that be the effect?

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Yes.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– Then, considering that so many of the people of the world are crying out for wool for clothing purposes, I shall certainly vote against the amendment.

Question - That the words proposed to be added be so added (Mr. Cunningham’s amendment) - put. The Housedivided.

Ayes .. .. ..12

Noes .. .. ..33

Majority . . . . 21

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Original question resolved in the affirmative.

Sitting suspended from 6.25 to 8 p.m.

page 8139

EXPORTATION OF WOOL

Sir JOSEPH COOK (Parramatta-

Treasurer and Acting Prime Minister) [8.0]. - (By leave.) -I beg to move -

That this House approves of the issue of a proclamation under the Customs Act 1901-1920 prohibiting for a period not exceeding six months the exportation of wool from the Commonwealth unless -

in the case of wool purchased within the Commonwealth, a price, not lower than the price agreed upon as the official reserve in respect of wool of that type, is paid by the purchaser either at auction or by private treaty; and

in the case of wool consigned for sale overseas, security is given to the satisfaction of the Minister for Trade and Customs that the wool will not be sold, either publicly or privately, at a price lower than the equivalent of the price agreed upon as the official reserve, in respect of wool of that type, . plus the freight and other charges on the wool from the port of shipment in Australia to the place of sale overseas:

Provided that the price agreed upon asthe official reserve in respect of wool of each type shall be such a price as will produce an average price of eightpence per pound for an average Australian wool clip, and that such official reserve shall be determined by the BritishAustralian Wool Realization Association Limited in accordance with the principles upon which the prices of wool were determined by the Central Wool Committee during the period of sales to the British Government.

That this resolution be forwarded to the Senate for its concurrence.

This is the fourth day on which we have debated this matter, and I should like to, ifpossible - in fact, we must - finish it in our House to-night. On Monday the sales begin, and the Senate requires to also consider the matter when we have concluded it. A word, first of all, as to why we are proceeding by resolution instead of by Bill. This motion is, to all intents and purposes, a Bill, except as regards statutory rigidity. In this case, we proceed by proclamation. A Bill binds us for a certain defined period during which no alteration can be made in, no matter how urgent the circumstances, unless a repealing or amending Bill be introduced. The outlook is not altogether clear - indeed, it is anything but clear - and we are treading our way through a maze of difficulties and perplexities in an endeavour to stabilize the market, and at the same time get wool into consumption, for there is a dual object running all through these proposals. In these circumstances, we think that the more facile the instrument by which this object is accomplished the better for all concerned. As to creating a precedent we need not, I think, unduly stress the point, for the reason that we have the same control over these proposals in their shaping and adjustment as over any Bill. The discretion of the House, its judgment and its actions, are not limited in any sense of the word. Therefore, to all intents and purposes, this is a Bill without having the rigidity of a Bill; we gain as much by this way as we gain by means of a Bill. Moreover, if we proceed by Bill, we must incorporate in the Bill the provisions from the Customs Act, in order to make it effective and at the same time constitutional. We have no control over exports except through the powers of the Customs Department under section 112 of the Act. We cannot by any Statute create a new power; we are limited to the power we possess under the Constitution. That is, therefore, our sole power to deal with the fixation of a reserve of this kind. I think it is quite clear at this time of day that we have not the power to fix either a reserve price or any other price, except as incidental to the export powers.

And now as to the purposes of the motion. The wool industry is a very varied one, as I am beginning to find out since I had something to do with it. It represents many interests and activities, and some of these are conflicting; all of them are certainly varied, and important. We have to gather up these interests and reconcile them in the best way we can in one proposal, and that is not an easy matter. For instance, wool is bought and sold in many places, and under many varying conditions. Buyers are sent out specially on behalf of particular firms, and wool is purchased outright here for consignment direct to warehouses’ at Home. Other wool is shipped a-way for consignment, to be dealt with in London by organizations of wool-brokers, by that known as Bawra, and other bodies at the other end of the world. As this motion relates to wool at the other end as well as to wool in Australia, we must make provision in the resolution to meet the .circumstances. There are other buyers who buy for consignment to foreign countries - Japan, America, and other places - where there are not organizations such as obtain in London. Therefore, we must fix our reserve and our guarantees at this end ; and paragraph o is introduced with that object. It sets out that, in the case of wool purchased within the Commonwealth for exportation, the price as agreed upon shall be charged, and guarantees shall be offered that it will be paid. There is a little uncertainty as to a certain class of purchasers of wool to whom, perhaps, I should allude now. I am referring to the buyer who purchases small lots direct ‘from the grower and’ pays ready cash. Such a buyer goes round from farm to farm picking up these little lots, and paying for them as he gets them. It would seem on one reading of this motion that a buyer of this kind’ would have to get two certificates, one that he had paid the Bawra price to the farmer, and another when he came to ship overseas. If we make the man who goes round collecting these little lots for ready cash pay the full market price to the farmers, he is cut out altogether; and’ I wish to make it quite clear’ that we d’onot desire in any way that he should be cut out. It appears to me that he may purchase those lots- of wool at a price as agreed between himself and the seller, and that he may then, under paragraph *h; ship, the wool away on consignment, giving guarantees and securities that when the wool comes to be sold overseasBawra conditions will be ‘observed. If that point is not so clear as some wish it to be ‘expressed in the motion, it can be altered,, for there is no desire, as I say; to interfere with this small buyer. To me, the arrangement seems right enough.

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– At the Customs House, in the case of such a buyer, all that the Customs House officer has to say to him is, “Have you purchased this wool for the warehouses at Home? Have you purchased it on your own account to export it, or are you sending it” away on consignment?” The Customs House officer has nothing to do with what has been paid for the wool in Australia; all he is concerned with is that it may not be exported unless Bawra conditions are observed.

Mr Fleming:

– Is there no restriction on the price within the Commonwealth?

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Not within the Commonwealth ; we are dealing, only with wool for export.

Mr Jowett:

– I am afraid that is not the object, according to the wording of the motion.

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– That is the governing principle of the proposal. “We are concerned with the export of wool; what Bawra does is Bawra’s concern. We are not hereto run Bawra; all we do is to prescribe a new reserve,’ to try to stabilize the market, and bring our wool industry into a healthy condition.

Sir Robert Best:

– What does the “ official reserve “ mean in paragraph a of the motion ?

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– That will be made quite plain later’ on. In the second paragraph is quite clear that,, in respect’ of wool consigned to England there must be guarantees that it will not go into consumption at a lower price than the stipulated reserve, and according to the proviso, “ the- price- agreed upon as. the official reserve in respect of wool of each type shall be such a price as will produce an average price of 8d. per lb. for an average Australian wool clip.”

We are told that there are 858 types of. wool. The classification is fairly .extensive, and I understand that there is what is known as “a wool Bible “ in which all grades of wool have been reduced to a mathematically ascertained standard. The prices realized for. these 858 types must work out at an average of 8d. per lb. Some wools will be worth 3s. or 4s. per lb., and other wools only 2d., or Id. The average Australian clip, is to be ascertained by taking the average of the three years of control by the Central Wool Committee, namely, 19-16-17”, 19i7-18, and 1918-19. The figures for those three years will enable us to arrive at a. fair average Australian clip; and to fix ‘ the types . under which the average price will be settled: The machinery for doing this is already in existence. The best wool experts in the world hav,e been gathered together in Bawra regardless of any other consideration than to press into the service of the wool industry the best brains in the industry. The whole scheme hits been so organized that there seems to. be little room for improvement. Therefore, we adopt that machinery for the ascertainment of all the minute details and particulars by which the average price will be fixed. Brought into - this scheme is- not only Bawra, but tie Central Wool Committee, who will have a say as to what the reserve shall be, and what the price shall be of each of the 858 types of wool. The final determination will appear to reside in the Central Wool Committee. That is the scheme in brief, and it aims at one thing in ‘ particular, viz., the stabilization of the -market, whilst at the same time moving off the wool as fast as we can safely and properly’ do so. We are fixing an official reserve of 8d. per lb. because’ that is well below, the profit line. This House has no right to determine the profits of wool sellers or wool buyers. We are concerned only with the preservation of a national industry, and as the hulk of - Bawra wool has already netted a good -price, and as a .good deal of the remainder may be said to represent extra profit, it is dear ‘.that, in coming to the help of -the industry, we should make our stipulations -such as not to interfere with the making or losing of profits by the individual sellers and growers. That I think is a safe line for us to take. The object is to reconstitute the markets of Europe, and I do not -see how we shall be able to do that by keeping our wool off those markets. The locking up of all this wool for a number of- years will not help us to get rid of it; it is the mounting up of the wool that is dislocating the market, and making the commodity so troublesome to handle. Clearly, therefore, con- sumption, and not restriction, should be -the ultimate aim. This scheme aims at getting a fair, price for the wool, and at the same time moving it off with. as much rapidity as may be found safe, in accord.ance with the agreement .with the Imperial . authorities.

Mr Fenton:

– Will export be allowed to any country?

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Yes; and I sincerely hope that we may make such arrangements with Germany as will enable her to be amongst our customers. I read in to-night’s paper that the German Government has resigned. I hope that is a prelude to a more reasonable attitude on the part of Germany, for the soones we can make arrangements with her, and give her her head, so that she may get back to her old-time purchases of our wool, the better it will be for the Commonwealth, and for every other country in Europe.

Mr Brennan:

– Blame Germany for the Government’s folly.

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– To what folly does the honorable member allude f

Mr Brennan:

– I mean the restrictions on trade which have operated for years past.

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– The Prime Minister said that he would resign if Australia traded with Germany.

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The Prime Minister said nothing of the kind.. He stands to-day for the reconstitution of Europe at the earliest moment it can be done with safety to the Allies and justice to Germany. The first thing we have to do with Germany is to- bring her to her senses, and let her understand that she has to stand up to the requirements of justice for the crimes she has . committed against humanity. The moment that is done and the principle of reparations settled, there will he no longer any object in refusing to trade with Germany; rather should wo encourage all the central powers of Europe to take our wool and other products. -Mr. Considine. - Do the Government intend to kill the Kaiser with bales of wool ?

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I would like the honorable member to understand that I am thinking just now chiefly of the interests of Australia and the Empire.

Mr SPEAKER:

– (Hon. Sir Elliot Johnson) - I think ‘the Treasurer might be -allowed to make his speech without’ interruption.

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Once the reparations are fixed up we shall have to address ourselves to the task -of restoring Europe to the old purchasing conditions in ‘ respect of our .raw materials. The trouble is that whilst the Germans require wool and can take an endless quantity of it at present, they cannot buy it. The only thing to do,, therefore, is to get settled conditions as a preliminary to the reorganization of exchanges and of the commercial relations between our erstwhile enemies and our Allies.

And here I think the relationship of the Imperial Government to this wool scheme . becomes important. If our object be to unload our wool in the European countries where it is so much needed, we shall have in the Imperial Government an agency of the greatest possible value. Therefore, the Imperial Government, as a partner in this scheme, can be of more use to us than if she were outside the scheme. However, all that has been made quite clear during the debate. I hope this motion will realize the intention of the Government by stabilizing the wool industry, and at the same time moving off the stocks of wool with reasonable facility. I said last night that Europe has no wool, that the Central Powers want wool and cannot purchase it, that the world has no stocks of wool, that it is buying from hand to mouth, and will continue to do so unless stable conditions are in prospect. A man who sees a chance of buying wool at a bargain price in a few months time, will certainly make no attempt to get stocks into his warehouse. ‘ . He will rather higgle the market from day to day until he finds that he can make no profit by so doing. Therefore, our object is to stabilize the market so as to induce men. to stock up, in: the knowledge that they will not lose money thereby. In that way we shall keep the article we have to sell at a reasonable level until normal conditions come, -when those eternal and natural conditions of competition may again assert themselves -unfettered and unhampered by the irritating causes to which this war has made- us privy i and when we may release all these controls and* let our products find markets whereever they can, to the great advantage of all concerned.

Mr CHARLTON:
Hunter

.- This question has been already threshed out fully, but I find it incumbent upon me to at least lodge my objection to the Government proposal. . I do not regard this as a party question. Every man is free to use his own judgment, because the matter is one affecting the future welfare of the people of Australia Two things stand out prominently. The first is that this Parliament i asked for the first time to give, through the Customs Act, protection to a combination dealing with the wool industry of this country without having any right to interfere for the next six months. It is made quite clear that during that period Parliament will have no right to challenge the position of Bawra. That is a serious step for Parliament to adopt and honorable members should give careful consideration to it. We should not, in our desire to do something beneficial to Australia, be hurried into a policy, of the consequences of which we are not sure. Very few of the speakers in this debate have expressed full confidence in the proposal. The Prime Minister wanted a period of two months in which to carry on negotiations with the Imperial authorities, but he said that he was not sanguine that the desired effect would be achieved. The Treasurer adopts the same attitude, and so do many others who have spoken. There being this doubt, it behoves us to be very careful lest, instead of assisting the woolgrowers and benefiting the community, wo bring trouble upon Australia. I have pointed out that use of the Customs Act in the manner proposed has neve; been made before. Since I have been in Parliament, I have heard members opposite, and even some on this side, say that we have not the constitutional power to deal with combines. The honorable member for West Sydney (Mr. Ryan), when he entered Parliament, claimed that they could be dealt with by an operation of the Customs Act, but that was said to be impossible. Now, if what the Government proposes is legal, it is obvious that it is possible. The Government is setting up a precedent, and they cannot blame those who may f ollow them if they use it to do something to which they are opposed.

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– It will be all right if you have the support of Parliament.

Mr CHARLTON:

– But very often we forget that what is proposed is not . of party interest only, and a Government gets the support of the party behind it. I shall put on record my opposition to this proposal, so that if it does not succeed I shall be clear of .blame. Honorable members opposite have changed their views in regard to our constitutional powers. Section 112 of the Customs Act says - 112. (1) The Governor-General may, by proclamation, prohibit the exportation of any goods -

being arms, explosives, military stores, or naval stores, or being goods which, in his opinion, are capable of being used as or in the manufacture of arms, explosives, military stores, or naval stores, or for any purpose of war; or
1. the exportation of which would, in his opinion, be harmful to the Com-‘ monwealth.

Under that provision the GovernorGeneral has prohibited the exportation of the following goods: -

Wheat or other grain, ores, sugar, or other bagged products, which in regard to shipment or stowing must necessarily be carried on the backs of the persons employed in handling the same, if the weights of the bags containing such bagged products are, when filled, in excess of two hundred pounds.

The honorable member for Darling (Mr. Blakeley), who occupies an exceedingly responsible position- in connexion with the wool-growing industry, asks what provision is made to protect the small grower, and the honorable member for Hunter (Mr. Charlton) is anxious on the same point. I draw attention to the fact that the motion in paragraphs a and 6 distinguishes between two classes of wool. Paragraph a refers to wool purchased within the Commonwealth, arid the resolution, > as a whole, deals with wool that is exported for sale overseas.

Mr Brennan:

– What of paragraph b?

Mr JOWETT:

– That seems to refer exclusively to wool consigned for . sale overseas.

Mr Lavelle:

– Where is the wool to be purchased ?

Mr JOWETT:

Mr Higgs:

– Will not the resolution have the force of law? If anybody fails to comply with the regulation will the

– Do my honorable friends suggest that we have power to impose a restriction or prohibition, which amounts to the fixation of prices? The fixing of this reserve ‘ price for wool amounts to that. It is a scheme fixing the price .at which wool may be sold. Wool is not to be sold under 8d. per lb. Speaking generally, the fixation of prices within Australia is the exercise of a power which is exercisable only by the

But the aspect did not appear so pleasant one or two years later. The following quotation from the same book shows how callous the very rich are, . so long as they can preserve their own rights: -

Not a single bond-holder or shareholder was represented on this great committee, of which Lord Rothschild was the chairman, and the whole affair was arranged to the ruin of the investors, so as to suit the pockets of those who sat with him round the table.

That is the end of the Baring episode of which the honorable member for Grampians spoke. It shows how those who have most power can use it to benefit themselves.

My own opinion on this matter is that civilization can only advance by breaking old precedents- and making new. Therefore, I welcome this proposal. It will not be the only one of the sort in the great march to the ultimate end of the nationalization of this industry. We are told that our wool has been sold for 31/4d. per lb. and less, and that it could be had for the carting it away. Senator Guthrie, as reported in the Age to-day, has said -

It took 7 lbs. of greasy wool to make a suit of clothes. The grower got 5s. 3d. out of that quantity of wool, and it was scandalous that the prices of suits ranged from £8 8s. to £16 16s. Manufacturers had been “making a big thing out of it,” and the wholesale houses had made fortunes, and were “ squealing “ because they could not still get the high prices they had obtained.

When an honorable member on this side of the House moved to lock up the whole of the Bawra wool for two years, my mind flashed immediately to the human beings in Europe in need of cloth made from wool. People the whole world over are holding up their hands for wool, and second only to the infamy of preventing food from reaching the hungry would be any step taken to prevent them from clothing their bodies. . Therefore,, I voted against the honorable member’s proposal. We have been told to produce, produce, produce. We have produced wool. We have been told also to beware of the Greeks bringing gifts. I am not speaking for the few thousand wool-growers, but for the millions in Australia who want cheap clothing, and who by robbery and extortion are prevented from getting it at a fair price. I do not blame the Government for fixing the price of this wool at 8d. per lb. I support them in doing so. They are establishing a precedent that will be followed, possibly not by the party in power today, or by any other party which may replace it; but when the people outside secure control of this Parliament, there will be no more of that infamous fraud, bribery and corruption that has been in evidence for years. In order to show what has been done, let me point out that Buckley andNunn, of Melbourne, are advertising a. Canadian production of very fine quality, made from Australian wool sent to Canada and woven there. It is described as follows : -

Monarch Floss. - A 2-ply yarn made from fine Australian wool put up in one-ounce balls.

Monarch Dove. - A 4-ply yarn suitable for stockings, scarfs, &c, made from fine Australian wool put up in one-ounce balls.

That wool issold at Buckley and Nunn’s at 3s. 6d. an oz. or 56s. per lb. That is an infamy. Such wool could be manufactured here, and I hope that when the Tariff is tinder consideration the Minister for Trade and Customs (Mr. Greene) will give the matter his attention. If this scheme is adopted, I hope we shall not have in connexion with it a repetition of the wheat scandals. It has been said from this side of the House that 5,000,000 bushels of wheat, which was under the control of the pool, disappeared, and that most of it was stolen. That statement has never been contradicted.

The honorable member for Balaclava (Mr. Watt), when speaking last night, said that there were some 200,000,000 people in the enemy countries of Central Europe. I knew he was wrong when he made the statement, and I have since taken the trouble to look up the Year Book, with the result that I find that in thev new Austrian area, taking the population as at the pre-wan standard, and not allowing for losses in population during the war, there are only 7,000,000 people; that in Czecho-Slovakia there are 13,900,000, in Germany, 63,000,000, and in Hungary 20;000,000. Some time ago through the courtesy of the Minister for Trade and Customs, I was able to transmit lis. to an old friend of my student days residing in Germany, and I received from him a letter stating that for that lis. he had obtained 137 marks. The pre-war standard was 20 marks to the sovereign, so that .he got 12 times as many marks as he would have obtained for lis. before the war. How are we to settle up with an exchange of that kind ? Before the war in Berlin a piano could be purchased for £20. The honorable member for Balaclava will probably remember that the late Mr. Sachse, then Minister of Education in Victoria, endeavoured many years ago to arrange for the purchase of a large number of German pianos at a cost of £15’ each for use in our State schools. To-day, with the mark at 250 to the sovereign, even assuming that the cost of pianos in Germany had increased by 300 per cent., we should be able to obtain three pianos for the money paid there for one before the war. If German pianos were landed here at such rates Wertheim’s and Beale’s piano factories would have to close down and no pianos would be made here. I think that we shall have to fix the purchasing price ‘a the currency of the country, and then bring it back to the pre-war standard before goods so purchased are admitted to Australia. Does the honorable member for Balaclava follow me?

Mr Watt:

– I do, but I do not know whether the Minister for Trade and Customs would say that he had the power to do what the honorable member suggests.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– My honorable friend spoke almost in terms of admiration of the time when, in the name of economy, the Victorian Government “cut to the bone.” Surely he must remember the misery of those days. More men and women, whose only crime was the Christlike one of being poor, were jailed at that time than at. any other period in Victoria’s history. Old women were asked to live on a pension of 2s. 6d. a week, and to my own knowledge two lives in one family were lost through the infamy of that “cut to the bone” policy. Victoria at that time was really as rich as ever it had been. There had simply been a manipulation of the finances. Finance at the present time is being, and during the war was, manipulated in a way previously unheard of. Never during any previous war did the gold reserves mount up as they did during the late war in all the banks of all countries, including the ‘banks of those countries which lost the war. Every reader of finance knows, however, that all the money that has ever been coined would not pay for one month’s transactions on the New York Stock Exchange alone. The process of manipulation may be simply illustrated. If a man in this chamber had £1,000,000 in four different pockets, and, leaving the House for a minute, put the whole of that money into one pocket, he would return here a millionaire in one pocket and a pauper in the other three. Australia, blessed with good seasons, will be rich in its crops, and if we devote attention to mining operations and manufactures she will be rich also in respect of both those industries. But the financial strings are pulled from the great financial centres. I have already referred to the great banking firm of Baring Brothers - the only firm to stand up against the Rothschilds. In the crisis of 1893 it was decided to eliminate that firm. Nominally they were to be assisted to the extent of £21,000,000, and, in addition, through the Rothschilds they obtained £3,000,000 from the Bank of France. Later on Lord Rothschild took the chair at a certain meeting, caring little or nothing for the bondholders or shareholders so long as his friends around the table were safe.

I make no accusation against the woolgrowers of Australia, but I cannot get away from the arguments advanced in a leading article published in this morning’s issue of the Age, in which it is stated that -

The Government of the country is exceeding its duty by invading the area of private trading and financial interests at the wish of a relatively small and wealthy .section of the community. That way lies grave, abuses. Most people are familiar with the obstinate objections raised by this Government to fixing the price of meat against the wishes of the big graziers when that course was advocated for the benefit of the great mass of the people.

When will the people, the creators of this Parliament, exercise control- over the created thing?

.- When this subject was introduced by the Prime Minister (Mr. Hughes) reference was made to the fact that it vitally affected, amongst others, the great mass of the working people of the Commonwealth ; but as the debate has proceeded, honorable members have .directed attention not so much to the interests of the wageearner as to the welfare of the wool producers and wool buyers. We had the honorable member for Grampians (Mr. Jowett) telling the honorable member for Darling (Mr. Blakeley) that, as president of the great organization of workers particularly interested. in the wool industry, he held a very responsible position; but, as I interjected, that responsibility apparently did not involve consultation. We find that the workers most concerned in the industry have not been invited to offer any suggestion to meet the existing difficulties.

Mr Hill:

– You can do that.

Mr CONSIDINE:

– I am not a worker in that industry, neither do I represent them, except in a limited sense as the representative in this House for my par- ticular district. But the honorable member for Darling is the head of a vast organization that is vitally interested, and despite all the appeals that have been made by honorable members opposite for support of the resolutions, the interests of the working class, that is to say of those most concerned in the industry, have not received consideration. From my point of view, honorable members who represent the pastoral and kindred industries in this House are doing just what they were 6ent here to do - looking after .their own interests. This is an example of that evolutionary process which is slowly but surely transforming this deliberative assembly into an industrial machine. The industrialization of society is being reflected in the debates in this chamber. Those who are interested in the maintenance of the existing order of things . ar>> utilizing the machinery at their disposal to buttress their position. From my viewpoint it is immaterial what they do. I do not stand for the existing order. Honorable members who represent the particular interest concerned in the subject, now under discussion’ can settle amongst themselves whether this proposal will operate to their advantage or disadvantage. What interests me is the fact that these gentlemen, who are so anxious to safeguard their own interests in a particular commodity, whether it be wool, wheat, . lead, copper, or zinc, overlook the interests of the working-class population whose commodity, labour power, is subject to the same disadvantages as hitherto. We do not find these honorable gentlemen coming forward with any scheme to stabilize the labour market by holding- off the surplus labour, known as the unemployed. On the contrary, while, in this case, there is an attempt in this House to keep up the price of wool, there is, outside, a well-arranged plan of campaign to reduce the value of the other commodity - the labour power of the worker - by utilizing the surplus labour to beat down the price of labour in this country. What amuses me is that the crocodile sympathy that has been expressed during this debate for the interests of labour has now been forgotten, and labour may look after itself as best it may. My view. is that Australia’s position in regard to .the sale of her primary products overseas is absolutely dependent upon the rehabilitation of Europe. We have no other market, and until Europe is reconstructed our primary products cannot be sold overseas. The result is that Australia, which was comparatively immune from the effects of the war while it lasted, is now experiencing the aftermath of the huge destruction that occurred, and is suffering from the stupidity exhibited by Allied statesmen in drawing up the economic clauses of the Peace Treaty. What has been the result of their compelling Germany to hand over large quantities of coal to Prance? Immediately huge armies of coal miners were thrown out of employment, and ‘ we have the ridiculous spectacle of Prance selling German coal to Britain, and displacing large bodies of coal miners in both England and France. The same thing will happen in connexion with other commodities if the indemnities - as they are now called in plain language, instead of the hypocritical “reparations” - are paid. Nobody believes that the indemnities will be paid in cash. They will be paid, if at all, in commodities ; and how, at the same time, prosperity can be retained in the Allied countries that absorb them is a puzzle which I leave to Allied statesmen to solve. As evidence of how Allied statesmen are proceeding to stabilize Europe, I quote the following passage from the New York Nation, the chief Liberal organ in the United States of

America, in regard to the Allies’ dealings with one European country: -

The crudity with -which the Georgian Republic and the Georgian people were held up and looted is scarcely believable. There were three Allied “ missions “ in Tiflis when we arrived in the late summer of 1019, going full swing - British, French, and Italion. They were there in a blaze of warlike uniforms - bankers, promoters, engineers, who had never seen a gun or heard a shot fired, and whose general’s stars were shiny new - to impress the natives with their importance and authority. Their business was concession hunting - mining rights, water rights, railway concessions, municipal contracts, land flotations, anything not nailed down. For its independence, Georgia must mortgage itself, body, boots, and breeches, for generations to come, by much the same method of protected foreign capital investment as Venizelos had pledged in Greece as the price of his continued Premiership. . . . . Similar procedure was followed by the Allied missions over the manganese mines at Mingtelia, the tobacco-fields of Sukhum, the silk orchards of Kutais, and everything else of value or prospective value in the Georgian Republic. It was a scramble with each mission undercutting the others, intriguing, cajoling, offering bribes, of influence with the Peace Conference to obtain commercial prizes, or threatening the partition of Georgia among the other Transcaucasian States to prevent a concession going to rival interests. The British specialized in loans. A brigadier-general represented a well-known financial house in London, with the aim of tying Georgia up by some such permanent mortgage as the Anglo-Persian Agreement of August, 1919. The French specialized in mines; while the Italians, with an eye to immediate turnover, sold rifles, ammunition, and shoes, captured from the Austrians, to Georgians, Azerbaijanians, and Ar.menians, without favoritism, to equip armies in each country to fight the other.

Add in this process of exploitation, the Transcaucasian ruble (based, after all, on quite as sound a foundation as pound, franc, or lira) was hammered down by the concerted action of three great Powers, until its market value was little more than that of Confederate money. Then, with their paper pounds, francs, and lire, they bought labour at a dollar a month, -and despoiled a poverty-stricken and desperate people of their last valuables - jewellery, rugs, furs, silver - which the Georgians were forced to sell for bread.

As usual, the Prime Minister (Mr. Hughes), has been adversely criticised by some of our friends opposite. But no matter what he does, the right honorable gentleman meets with adverse comment from our friends, and therefore we are perhaps at liberty to take very little notice of what they have said concerning him in this respect. However, he has been blamed for not bringing this question before the people at an earlier stage, and, furthermore, for having stressed, as he did; the present financial position of Australia. But he only did his duty in bringing home to the minds of the people the actual position of affairs, and in doing so may have considered it necessary to use strong terms.

I have risen, nob so much with the idea that I could add anything fresh to the discussion of this very great problem, but rather for the purpose of emphasizing the fact that the wool-growers a-re not the only people who are likely to suffer if our wool is not sold. Many- industries are absolutely dependent on a. satisfactory solution of the difficulty. In the Corio electorate, hundreds of men are employed in normal seasons in industries, which are allied to pastoral pursuits, and. they in turn afford employment in various forms to many other people whose position to-day is becoming extremely acute. The ‘Government, in coming to a decision upon this question, must realize that they are face to face with the problem of unemployment. They must confront this issue, and, if necessary, introduce legislation which may put our people once more on the high road to prosperity.

I offer no apology to honorable members for making a few passing references to this question even at this late hour, because I am not one who rises at every touch and turn to get rid of a lot of hot air. The position to-day is very critical. A gentleman who is in a position to know what he is speaking about has told me that selling agents in Victoria who have been receiving skins from growers have been forced to send back to those growers not cash in payment for the skins, but accounts for the expenses incurred in bringing them to the market ‘ and in disposing of them. As I had a similar experience in Queensland thirty years ago in connexion with another line of produce, I have considerable sympathy for producers who are placed in that position.

The Government have been well advised to place this matter entirely in the hands of those who have proved their capacity to handle it by reason of the fact that they have been extremely successful in their own business- pursuits.. I am sure that they will keep a close eye, not only upon the interests of the growers, whose cause has been so- ably championed in this Chamber, but .also upon the needs of people in other industries dependent upon the pastoral industry. Some honorable members have made reference to the disposal of a portion of our clip to the Central Powers of Europe. There are many’ people in my own electorate, as no doubt there are all over the Commonwealth- rand I was- just as narrow in my views a few ‘months ago as they are to-day- who have strong objection to trading with Germany at any price. But the conditions which obtain to-day are very different from those which prevailed during” the war, and When we remember- that France, which- suffered so much from Germany, has for a considerable time past been trading with that country, I think we ought to look upon this question with a wider outlook. The only danger I perceive in the disposal of our Wool to Germany is the possibility that there may be a tendency to accept German goods in exchange for it. We must be extremely careful to see that we do hot encourage the dumping of goods in Australia.. We owe a duty to our people here in this regard Many of the industries which have been built up in Australia during- the war through the protection afforded to us by reason. of the high shipping freights then prevailing, and the lack of production overseas, would -be ruined or endangered if we allowed 1 the dumping of great quantities of stuff already manufactured in Germany, and only awaiting the opportunity to be disposed of. I trust that the success of the Bawra scheme will be all we hope it will be, and that the darkness which seems to have overshadowed the pastoral industry and the community generally will pass away speedily, so that the Commonwealth may emerge once more into the sunlight of prosperous days. .

Mr CUNNINGHAM:
Gwydir

– I have read with a good deal of interest the proposals embodied in the motion submitted by the Acting Prime Minister (Sir Joseph Cook). I have no desire to enter upon a discussion of the legal side of the question; but I may say that we are pleased to observe that the Government hame at last been converted to the legal principles laid down by the honorable member for West Sydney (Mr. Ryan), who has long contended that the Government have power to prevent profiteering by taking action in this direction under the Customs Act. In another place yesterday afternoon,. I heard followers of the Government express’ opinions very adverse to this method o-f giving effect to the Bawra scheme. It was foreshadowed that costly litigation might result from giving effect to the proposal by means of a proclamation issued under the Customs Act. We have not the last word in the interpretation of the Constitution. The opinion of the High Court of Australia may be invoked,, and two or three months hence we may have an ‘injunction issued to. restrain the Commonwealth Government from going on with the- scheme. In- that event, endless complications would arise, and great losses would be sustained, not only by the Government, but by those who had acted in the belief that this exercise of authority was within the law. I would urge the Acting Prime Minister to consider the desirableness of placing on the Bawra executive a representative of the Government, to protect the interests of the taxpayers of Australia who have been induced through Parliament in this way to grant assistance. It is an old axiom that there should be no taxation without representation, and no body should have the assistance of Parliament unless the Parliament is represented upon its executive. We should have on the Board a Government representative - a disinterested authority from whom we may obtain all the information we require. Those who are at present controlling Bawra might have reasons for not supplying us with accurate information as to the transactions that take place, and since the Government have ‘intervened in this way, it would be wise to have a Government representative on the executive.

I desire now to point out> that the honorable member for Melbourne (Dr. Maloney) was under a misapprehension in the view that he took concerning the amendment which I brought forward this afternoon, and which he voted against, believing that if it were carried it Would have the effect of withholding wool from the ragged and ill-clothed people of Central Europe. I thought I had made it very clear that the idea behind my proposal was not by any means to withhold our wool from those peoples. I pointed out that, quite apart from that held by Bawra, there would be sufficient Australian wool to supply the needs of the Central European countries. The honorable member for Hunter (Mr. Charlton) also said that there Would’ probably be more than sufficient to supply the legitimate needs of Central Europe, without using any of our carry-over wool, and that the looms there would be kept working at full pressure for the next two years by means of our present clip and the clip in view. The honorable . member for Melbourne, however, drew a picture of the situation which suggested that we were rather hardhearted in voting for such’ an’ amendment. I think the utterances of the honorable members of the Labour party as to the need for the restoration of trade with Germany and’ our other one-time enemies - regarding the need for breaking down the senseless hostility exhibited by the Prime Minister and his followers here - should be sufficient to convince every one that those of us who voted for the amendment had no such object in view. ‘We voted for the amendment to withhold’ supplies of Bawra wool, only because of our desire to Save Australian’ producers. Figures could be produced if necessary to show that there is sufficient wool without drawing on the carry-over, to supply the needs >f Central Europe.

The Commonwealth should have taken up a strong stand in regard to this matter. The Government should not have allowed it to go forth that we were so lacking in statesmanship that we could not deal with our own affairs. I ‘believe that the transmission of a report by cable that a section of this Parliament was in favour of buying out Britain’s interest in the Bawra wool, and thereby preventing a glut in the market, has been responsible for the keen competition at the recent sales. We all know that if a man in business gets downhearted, .and believes that he cannot recover himself, every one else is only too pleasel to “ put the boot into him,” whereas a bold front often carries a man through. And so with the Common.wealth. I believe that the Commonwealth could finance any scheme to save the woolproducers of Australia. Any one who says otherwise is a traitor to Australia’s interests, and is not taking a right stand in the interests of our primary producers.

At this late hour I do not intend to delay the House further, except to say that the scheme brought in by the Government, in my opinion, is utterly impracticable. It will involve such an enormous amount of detailed work in following up the various transactions in connexion with the sales of wool that it must inevitably break down of its own weight. In paragraph b of the motion it is provided that wool may be exported if security is given to the satisfaction of the Minister that -

The -wool will not be sold either publicly or privately at a price lower than the equivalent of the price agreed upon as the official reserve.

It will, be quite possible for people to give the necessary guarantee, and then to fix up bogus sales on the other side of the world which will enable them to sell at whatever price they pleased. In New South Wales the Minister for Lands will not agree to a transfer where exorbitant prices have been paid for improvement leases or a preferential right to holders cf ‘land. But although it would be very hard to prove, I believe there are men fixing up bogus sales, because much of the land so held is worth an enormous price. They are prepared to make declarations that the price they are paying is nob exorbitant, although the price actually paid by them is excessive. In the same way, so long as private sales of wool can be carried out under paragraph b, bogus transactions will be possible ; people will be prepared to swear anything in order to obtain this wool, and arrange sales to suit themselves. The details involved are such that it will be impossible for any organization which the Government can set up to follow the wool through all its ramifications from the time it leaves the producer till it reaches the manufacturer.

Mr Jowett:

– Bawra can look after it.

Mr CUNNINGHAM:

– Then it will have to look after it better than it has done. So far as we know we have no authoritative information from Bawra; and before the whole of the wool is sold, it will probably be found necessary for a Royal Commission to inquire into its operations. I hope the Government will insist on having a representative of Parliament on the executive of Bawra, in order that we may be kept informed by somebody who has not the same interests as Sir John Higgins and Sir Arthur Goldfinch, and who should have the interests of the great mass of the people of Australia at heart. I shall oppose the motion for the reasons I have outlined. I shall not be surprised if the Government, in a short time, have to come to this House seeking for some amendment of this proposal; nor shall I be surprised if the High Court is moved, and the whole scheme blocked.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– I think the proposals in this motion are much more satisfactory as a basis on which the Customs authorities can work than the mere passing of a motion to print a paper. I agree with the view that has been expressed that the proposals before us in the form of a motion are much more valuable than they would be in the form of a Bill, because, the motion permits, if necessary, of Government action to abrogate the conditions. The Government are to be congratulated on the view they have taken, and on the fact that they are willing to accept expert opinion. The wool industry is like a patient in a very serious condition, and it is much more advisable in such circumstances to accept the views of an eminent physician rather than those of some passing quack. The honorable member for Hunter (Mr. Charlton) expressed the opinion that, instead of allowing experts to operate on the patient, we should wait and let the patient die or get better. I regret very much that it has been necessary to bring this matter before the House; and it would not have been necessary except’ for the fact that unanimity could not be obtained amongst those actually interested outside. To secure that unanimity from only a small percentage of the growers - a forced . unanimity, it is true - is the only reason why we are called upon to deal with the question. It is said that what we are doing is laying down a precedent, and a bad one. But in the previous precedents quoted, in which the Customs Acthas been strained, or, as some say, not strained but properly used, it was always practically ordinary Ministerial action that was taken. On this occasion, the concurrence of both Houses of Parliament is being sought before action is taken. I venture to think that if in the future, when action of this kind is desired by the Government, and as free a discussion takes place as now, the public will have no ground to complain that the matter is not thoroughly ventilated.

There are one or two points in regard to which I would like to place my opinion on record. The actual words ‘of paragraph a will net, in my opinion, have -the effect that it has been sought to show they will have on the small buyer. I take it we are dealing entirely with a matter of export; and if it is necessary to make the meaning more clear by inserting other words, I am quite agreeable to that course. To me, however, that course seems to be unnecessary. I take it that machinery will be provided to permit of shipping from any port in the Commonwealth where ships can call.

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– ‘That is so.

Dp. EARLE PAGE.- We do not desire a repetition of what occurred during the early regime of the Central Wool Committee, whenRockhampton and other Queensland ports were denied the right of shipping, to their serious detriment.

Mr Gregory:

– We have an assurance that all the northern ports will he able to ship.

Dr EARLE PAGE:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · FSU; CP from 1920

– I want it on record in Hansard that everything will he all right in that respect. With regard to the question of inspection, to which I referred last night, 1 venture to think that the Bawra directors will have no hesitation in allowing it, if it is thought to be necessary.

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I wish to thank honorable members for the patient and cordial help they have given in dealing with this very troublesome question. I shall say no more now except to ask the leave of the House to incorporate a slight amendment which will make quite clear the intention of the motion regarding the small buyers of wool. The words I ask leave to incorporate in paragraph a will come after the word “Commonwealth,” and are “and not consigned for sale overseas.” That makes it clear that all’ sales which take place here most be paid for here before exportation. That leaves paragraph b to be operated by the buyer if he cares to do so when he buys small lots from the. farmers. He will then not have to subscribe to paragrapha, since he comes under the category of those who consign their wool for sale overseas. I am anxious not to exclude that small man, and the words I propose will make it quite clear that he is not excluded. I move -

That in paragraph a, afterthe word “ Commonwealth “ the words “ and not consigned for sale overseas “be inserted.

Mr CHARLTON:
HUNTER, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I should: like to say a few words on the amendment.

Mr SPEAKER (Hon Sir Elliot Johnson:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I am afraid the honorable member cannot do that. .

Mr JAMES PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND · FT; ALP from 1903

– -But an amendment has been moved.

Mr SPEAKER:

– The position is peculiar. This is a verbal amendment proposed by the mover of the original motion. With the consent of the House the words can be inserted, but without consent they cannot

Mr Charlton:

– I do not wish to object to the amendment, but merely to say, a few words on the matter.

Mr SPEAKER:

– If permission is given to the honorable member to say » few words, I hope it will notbe taken as a precedent.

Mr. CHARLTON (Hunter) [11.30).- The amendment which has been inserted only emphasizes what I said this afternoon in regard to the small wool-grower being at the mercy of the buyer, who can now buy his wool at any price the grower is prepared to sell for. I do not want to object to the extent of calling for a division, but I want to make it clear that, personally, I cannot he a party to this proposal.

Question amended accordingly.

Question - That the motion, as amended, be agreed to - put. The House divided.

AYES: 30

NOES: 3

Majority … . . 27

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

page 8164

PAPER

The following paper waa presented: -

Treaty of Peace /Germany) Act - Regulations Amended - Statutory Rules 1921, No. 86.

House adjourned at 11.37 p-m.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 5 May 1921, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1921/19210505_reps_8_95/>.

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House of Representatives 5 May 1921

QUESTION

COTTON SEED AND BAW COTTON

Mr J H CATTS:COOK, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr GREENE:RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr BOWDEN:NEPEAN, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr GREENE:RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

QUESTION

EXPORTATION” OF “WOOL

Mr WEST:EAST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

Sir JOSEPH COOK:Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr HIGGS:CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND

Mr GREENE:RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr J H CATTS:

Sir JOSEPH COOK:Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

AMERICAN SHIP BUILDERS

QUESTION

CLAIMS

Mr BOWDEN:

Sir JOSEPH COOK:Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

QUESTION

CLEANLINESS OF TELEPHONES

Mr FENTON:MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA

Mr WISE:Postmaster-General · GIPPSLAND, VICTORIA · NAT

QUESTION

EXPORT OF FRUIT, JAMS AND FLOUR

Mr GREGORY:DAMPIER, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr GREENE:RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

QUESTION

BOOK POST

Dr MALONEY:MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

Mr WISE:NAT

QUESTION

MENTALLY AFFLICTED SOLDIERS

Mr LISTER:CORIO, VICTORIA

Mr RODGERS:WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

QUESTION

TATTERS ALL’S SWEEPS

Mr BLAKELEY:DARLING, NEW SOUTH WALES

Sir JOSEPH COOK:Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr Blakeley:

Mr BLAKELEY:

Sir JOSEPH COOK:Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

QUESTION

MARIBYRNONG HORSEBREEDING ESTABLISHMENT

Mr LIVINGSTON:BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Sir GRANVILLE RYRIE:Assistant Minister for Defence · NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

QUESTION

BRITISH ARMY ACT

Mr J H CATTS:

Sir JOSEPH COOK:Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr Brennan:

Sir JOSEPH COOK:Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr J H Catts:

Sir JOSEPH COOK:Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

QUESTION

COCKATOO ISLAND DOCK

Mr LAIRD SMITH:Minister for the Navy · DENISON, TASMANIA · NAT

QUESTION

CHILD ENDOWMENT

Mr FENTON:

Sir JOSEPH COOK:Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

QUESTION

LIMITATION OF PROFITS: REFERENDUM

Dr MALONEY:MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

Sir JOSEPH COOK:Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

QUESTION

WOOL-TOP OPERATIONS

Mr FENTON:

Sir JOSEPH COOK:Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

QUESTION

BRITISH ARMY ACT AND AUSTRALIAN DEFENCE ACT

Dr MALONEY:MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

Sir GRANVILLE RYRIE:NAT

QUESTION

E’XPORT OF METALS: EMBARGO

Mr BLAKELEY:

Sir JOSEPH COOK:Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

Finance,Wheat, and Wool

House of Representatives
5 May 1921

Mr J H CATTS:
COOK, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr BOWDEN:
NEPEAN, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr WEST:
EAST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr HIGGS:
CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr FENTON:
MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA

Mr WISE:
Postmaster-General · GIPPSLAND, VICTORIA · NAT

Mr GREGORY:
DAMPIER, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

Mr WISE:
NAT

Mr LISTER:
CORIO, VICTORIA

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr BLAKELEY:
DARLING, NEW SOUTH WALES

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr LIVINGSTON:
BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Sir GRANVILLE RYRIE:
Assistant Minister for Defence · NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
Minister for the Navy · DENISON, TASMANIA · NAT

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

Sir GRANVILLE RYRIE:
NAT

Sir JOSEPH COOK:
Treasurer · PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr RILEY:
South Sydney

Mr FOWLER:
PERTH, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr FLEMING:
Robertson

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917