House of Representatives
28 November 1918

7^th Parliament · 2^nd Session

QUESTION
- CENSORING OFHANSARD RECORD
QUESTION
- SUPPLIES OF COAL
PAPERS
QUESTION
- FLINDERS NAVAL BASE
QUESTION
- SALE OF TIN
QUESTION
- RETURNED SOLDIERS
QUESTION
- REDUCTION OF FREIGHTS
QUESTION
- POSTMASTER-GENERAL’S DEPARTMENT
QUESTION
- CONVENIENCES TOR PAYING PENSIONS
QUESTION
- WAR TENSIONS
QUESTION
- REPATRIATION .OF SOLDIERS
QUESTION
- CAPITAL REGULATIONS-
QUESTION
- LAND SETTLEMENT OF SOLDIERS-:
QUESTION
- SALE OF AUSTRALIAN COPPER:
QUESTION
- MANUFACTURE OF WOOLLENS
QUESTION
- SOLDIERS’ INSURANCE AND PENSIONS
POSTAL DEPARTMENT
- Preference to Returned Soldiers
QUESTION
- QUARANTINE STATION, SYDNEY
QUESTION
- IMPERIAL CONTRACTS
QUESTION
- METAL MARKET
QUESTION
- SALE OF TIN
QUESTION
- PEACE CELEBRATIONS
QUESTION
- QUEENSLAND JAM
QUESTION
- PRICE OF BUTTER
QUESTION
- PRICE OF SUGAR
QUESTION
- DEPARTMENT OF REPATRIATION
RETURNING SOLDIERS
- Railway Passesfor Relatives
QUESTION
- INTERNMENTOFBYCLKE BOCSEN
QUESTION
- CIVILIANS INTERNED IN GERMANY
QUESTION
- NATURALIZATION OF RUSSIANS
QUESTION
- POSTMASTER-GENERAL’S DEPARTMENT
QUESTION
- PUBLIC SERVICE
QUESTION
- PROTECTION FOR NEW INDUSTRIES
QUESTION
- PASSENGER FARES OVERSEAS
QUESTION
- TRAMWAY EMPLOYEE DISMISSED
QUESTION
- SALE OF WHEAT TO JAPAN
ASSENT TO BILLS
IRON AND STEEL BOUNTY BILL
- Second Reading
NAVAL DEFENCE BILL
DISTILLATION BILL
- Second Reading
SPIRITS BILL
ADJOURNMENT
- Hughes and Cook

Mr . Speaker (Hon. W. Elliot Johnson) took’ the chair at. 2.30.’ p.m., and read prayers.

page 8510

QUESTION

CENSORING OFHANSARD RECORD

Mr SPE AKER:

– I desire to call the attention of the House to a statement made last night by the honorable . member for Cook (Mr. J. H.Catts), of which I think, notice should be taken. In the course of” his speech the honorable member, said - I. quote from the uncorrected report ofthe. galley- proof: -

No longer can, the records ofParliament. be, relied on as. true and . accurate reports . of the, proceedings of Parliament; because now, under the direction and dictation of the Government; they are. subject to such manipulation as- Ministers may choose:

The statement was- based apparently upon a misapprehension by the honorable member, but is wholly inaccurate The Hansard reports are not under the direction, nor at the1 dictation, of the Government, and are not-‘ subject to such manipulation- as Ministers may choose.. They are not subject, or subjected; to any manipulation or- interference of any kind on the part of Ministers. By the. express resolution of the House, the Speaker is given discretionary, power concerning the omission of passagesto which his attentions has been directed” by theCrown Law Officers- for- certain specified reasons, a discretionary power.- which, I . am happy . to say, I have not- so: far been, called upon to exercise. Let me remind honorable members of the wording of the- authority on which this discretionary’ . power is based-: The -. resolution! of- the-. House: reads as; follows.-:- -

That, . dulling; the progress’, of the . present war, Mr. Speaker tie,’ and is, hereby authorized at his discretion, to direct the ‘.omission, from Hansard of any remarks made in the’ House of Representatives’ in- thecourse of- debate, or in any other proceedings in the House of:.Representatives, to which his attention’, may- be directed by the Law Officers of the Crown, as being.- calculated to prejudice His Majesty’s- relations with a foreign Power, or. the. successful prosecution of the war, or to imperil the safety of the Commonwealth.

It will be seen that the omission of passages from Hansard is entirely at. the discretion of the Speaker, who. may- act if his attention is drawn by the’ Crown Law Officers to theundesirability in the national– interest of allowing certain statements’ to be published’.’

Later :

Mr.J.H.CATTS.-I desire to make a personal- explanation, , In the- statement to which you) Mr: Speaker, referred a few minutes ago,I was attempting to point to the links- in the chain of regulations by which the Govern,, ment had control of the’ public platform, the public press, speech in Parliar ment; . and’ the records’ of- Parliament. Apparently, in my effort to condense my remarks- as- much aa possible,- I have led to your misapprehending in some respect whatI intended to convey. I submit that, the: resolution quoted by you gives to the Government the power which I mentioned It is all very well to say that subordinate, officers of the Government may make- a recommendation to Mr. Speaker for the. manipulation of Hansard, but those subordinate’ officers would be moved by Ministers - their masters.

Mr J H CATTS:
COOK, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Yes.

Mr.Watt. - And Mr. Speaker has said that he alone has. the power;

Mr J H CATTS:

– Because of the brevity of my statement there has been some slight misunderstanding. The position,, so far as Hansard is . concerned, is also the same in regard to the issue of regulations. I have known the Prime Minister (Mr. Hughes) to state that, a regulation was issued by the GovernorGeneral. We know that all regulations are framed by Ministers, but therehas been an effort to pass on to the GovernorGeneral the responsibility for some of them.

Mr.Watt. -Nonsense. The statutory position ‘is that all regulations are issued by the Governor-General in . Council.

Mr J H CATTS:

– But the Government frame those regulations.

Mr.Watt. -Every regulation is signed by the . -responsible Minister, and is issued by the Governor-General in Council.

Mr J H CATTS:

– The Prime Minister has gone about the country . referring to regulations as “being issued by the Governor-General with the object of leading the public to believe that . Ministers themselves are not responsible . for their issue, but that some higher authority controls them. In the same ‘way the Government very astutely-

Mr Kelly:

– On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I desire to ask whether it is permissible for the honorable member, in making a personal explanation, to debate a matter in the way he is now doing.

Mr SPEAKER:

– The honorable member was merely giving an illustration in support of the position taken up by “him. I understood him to be referring only to what he considered to be an analogous case. ‘Had he gone beyond -that I should have called him to order.

Mr J H CATTS:

– The Government have chosen a roundabout means of controlling the records of Parliament; but the fact remains that the Government do, in ‘this way, control them. An incident has already occurred in regard to some soldiers’ grievances ventilated in the “House. At ‘the instance of the Government, certain honorable members agreed to alterations of the Hansard record of the speeches, so that those records, as ‘they lie on the table to-day, do not accurately set out what took place in the ‘House.

Mr Watt:

– On a point of order, Sir, may I, with very great respect to you, express the view that the remarks made by the honorable member for Cook (Mr. J. H. Catts) convey a very thinly veiled insult to the occupant of the Chair. Whether he intended it or not, the impression which his statement left upon the minds of honorable members was that the Government were improperly using . Mr. Speaker as a tool for the censoring of Hansard. On behalf of the Government, and the office you, sir, hold, I have a right to indignantly resent that suggestion.

Mr SPEAKER:

– I desire again to point out that . my object in drawing . the attention of the House to the statement made . by the honorable member (.Mr. J. H. Catts)was that it should not go before the public without a correction being made, since it . was entirely misleading; but misleading,I believed, because of a misunderstanding on the part . of the honorable member who -made it.

Later:

Mr.SPEAKER. - I am sorry to have to interpose in order to revert to a matter referred to early this . afternoon. In -the course of an explanation the honorable member for Cook (Mr. J. H. Catts) made a further statement implying that the Government, in connivance with some . honorable -members of the House, had - improperly, I understood him to suggest - manipulated Hansard so that it was not a correctreport of the proceedings. I could not think for a moment to what the honorable “member was referring, but it Has since occurred to me that possibly he was speaking of a matter in which the honorable member for Ballarat (Mr. McGrath) was concerned. I remind the House that whatever action was taken on that occasion was authorized by the expressed concurrence of the House, as embodied in the following resolution, and not by Ministers alone in. conjunction with certain honorable members: -

That the House accords permission to honorable members . who spoke on the motion for ‘the adjournment of the ‘House yesterday to censor the Barnard report of their . own speeches.

Mr Watt:

– That resolution was .carried unanimously.

Mr SPEAKER:

– That authority was given directly by the . House, but, I understand, . was not acted upon.

– I was not in the Chamber when this incident arose to-day. Honorable members may recollect that the Acting Prime Minister (Mr. Watt) and I decided that it should be a personal responsibility upon us to censor our own speeches. We conferred together, and the House agreed to a motion permitting us to censor our speeches, but I think that the reports were not censored, because we found that the Age had published what was virtually a full report of what had been said. I ‘have asked for a copy of the proof report, so that I may see exactly what was done.

page 8512

QUESTION

SUPPLIES OF COAL

Mr CHARLTON:
HUNTER, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Can the Minister representing the Minister for the Navy say whether the 100,000 tons which he agreed to purchase in the northern coal district of New South Wales, in order to relieve distress, have been supplied; and if not, what quantity has been supplied ?

Mr POYNTON:
Honorary Minister · GREY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · NAT

– It was arranged that 150,000 tons of coal should be purchased in New South Wales; 50,000 tons from the southern collieries, and 100,000 tons from the northern collieries. Speak-, ing from memory, about 2,000 tons have been supplied so far from the southern collieries, and about 70,000 tons from the northern collieries.

page 8512

PAPERS

The following papers were presented : -

Repatriation Department - Summary of Activities from 8th April, 1918, to 31st October, 1918.

Ordered to be printed.

Defence Act - Regulations Amended - Statutory Rules 1918, No. 303.

Lands Acquisition Act - Land acquired under, at-

Casterton, Victoria - For Defence purposes.

Mooroopna, Victoria - For Postal purposes.

Public Service Act - Promotion of S. E. Deegan, Postmaster-General’s Department.

War Precautions Act - Regulations Amended -Statutory Rules 1918, No. 286.

Arbitration (Public Service) Act - Orders of the Commonwealth Court of Conciliation and Arbitration and other documents, in connexion with plaints submitted by -

The Australian Commonwealth Post and Telegraph Officers’ Association (dated 1st November, 1918).

The Postal Sorters’ Union of Australia (dated 1st November, 1918).

page 8512

REDUCTION OF FREIGHTS

Mr SAMPSON:
WIMMERA, VICTORIA

– Can the Minister acting for the Minister for the Navy give the House any information respecting the negotiations for the reduction of freights on cargo between England and Australia ?

Mr POYNTON:
NAT

– Under instructions from Mr. Larkin, our general manager, the freight on wheat has been reduced by 30s. per ton, and there has been a general reduction of 25 per cent. on freight from the Old Country. The Overseas Shipping Committee, and the Australian Shipping Committee are further considering the subject of freight charges generally. I shall be able to give further information later.

page 8513

QUESTION

POSTMASTER-GENERAL’S DEPARTMENT

Holidays

Mr FINLAYSON:
BRISBANE, QUEENSLAND

– The Acting Prime Minister has stated publicly, and has also informed me privately, that until the Public Service Act is amended in regard -to the observance of certain holidays, its existing provisions must be honoured. As considerable perturbation exists in the General Post Office, Brisbane, owing to the fact that to-morrow is a declared public ‘holiday throughout the State, will the Postmaster-General arrange that the employees in the Post Office, Brisbane, shall receive consideration in connexion with that holiday?

Mr WEBSTER:
Postmaster-General · MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

– The existing law is being carried out, and under that law a holiday for to-morrow cannot be granted. Differentiation cannot be allowed between employees in Queensland and those in other States.

Mr TUDOR:

– I have received a lettergram from the postal electricians in Brisbane requesting me to ask the Acting Prime Minister whether it will not be possible for them to join with the other inhabitants of Queensland to-morrow in the general celebration of the signing of the armistice. I make that appeal to the Acting Prime Minister in the same way as I previously appealed to him in regard to the holiday on Melbourne Show Day. On that occasion, although ithad been decided that the postal officials should return to work, the Acting Prime Minister said that he was willing that the previous arrangement for “the observance of the holiday should stand. I ask him now whether it will serve any useful purpose to force the Brisbane employees to go back to work to-morrow when all the other inhabitants will be enjoying a holiday?

Mr WATT:
NAT

– To the answer already given by the Postmaster-General I can only .-ada that the :arrangements for holidays ‘between :the States .and “the ‘Commonwealth are very unsatisfactory. .Different days are observed :in- various parts of the .Commonwealth, and some ‘months ago. Cabinet, after consultation with :the Public Service Commissioner, determined to make ihe ‘holidays uniform throughout the Commonwealth, .by Statute. That decision was communicated to the Public Service Commissioner, -who naturally began to operate -it; but when a question was raised in regard to the holiday for Melbourne Show Day, I saw that an anomaly might be created if Cabinet dispensed with the existing law. I accordingly ruled, ‘for the guidance of the Departments that, until the law was changed by Statute, the existing conditions must be observed. That decision gave the men a holiday in Melbourne on ‘Show Day, but the operation of the same law will deprive the employees in’ -Brisbane of a holiday to-morrow

Mr Tudor:

– “Why? ‘The Queensland Government “have declared a .public holiday to-morrow.

Mr WATT:

– iTo-morrow.is not a holiday -usually observed. Melbourne -Show Day was such a ‘holiday.

Mr RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Has the PostmasterGeneral received the report Ihe expected in -regard -to the :holidays ron which telephonists weise at ‘work ?

Mr WEBSTER:

– I require a report from .each State, and it takes some -time to ..get -one ,fr.om Western Australia. I cannot act until fall .the .replies -are ‘to band.

page 8514

QUESTION

CONVENIENCES TOR PAYING PENSIONS

Mr STORY:
BOOTHBY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– In view of the great and increasing .congestion .at the .Norwood Post-office on .the days on which pensions are paid, will the PostmasterGeneral , give early consideration .to a suggestion I made on a .previous .occasion, to set aside .a certain day each .fortnight for the payment of old-rage .and invalid pensions, and .another .day .for the payment of war .pensions.?

Mr WEBSTER:
NAT

– Soon after -the honorable member mentioned this matter previously, .shelter .accommodation for the pensioners was ‘provided at Norwood. His other .suggestion in .regard to the setting aside of certain days for the payment -of different classes of pensions has not yet been adopted, but I shall take -immediate steps to see if effect can the given to it.

page 8514

QUESTION

WAR TENSIONS

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA

– In view of the ‘fact that mothers of deceased ^soldiers : can .. obtain war pensions only on two conditions, namely - (1) that of dependence on the late son during the twelve months prior.’to enlistment-; and (.2) being without adequate means of support, will the Treasurer request the Cabinet to consider the payment of pensions on the basis of the “age of a soldier at the time of his death?

Mr WATT:
NAT

– I should not like to give an affirmative answer to that question; the suggestion may involve a considerable change ; but I -desire to intimate to the House .generally that ‘the pensions are :to be transferred, -as is .generally desired by the Legislature, to .the .Repatriation Department.

Mr Higgs:

– No, jio,; Parliament was not unanimous on that point.

Mr WATT:

– I, do not -.think there can be unanimity on anything in this -House.

Mr SPEAKER:

–Order ! Questions may not be debated.

Mr WATT:

– There -may be something in the suggestion made :by the honorable member for Melbourne, and. I shall refer it ‘to the Minister .chiefly concerned, .and confer with him about it.

page 8514

QUESTION

REPATRIATION .OF SOLDIERS

Mr BRUCE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA

Mr WATT:
NAT

– In. order to afford the honorable member the- information he der sires,. I. shall have” to go back a little further than the 1st November, on which date he addressed his question to me; With the expiration of the copper contract on 30th June last, there followed several months of grave uncertainty in the copper world. Although the war was still going on, there was no assurance ofany kind that the British authorities would feel disposed to renew ‘or extend the contract. Eventually the Prime Minister (Mr. Hughes) was- able, as I said yesterday, to induce, 1 think, the Munitions Department to extend the contract to the 3 1st December of this year. During those three or four months of uncertainty, we were obliged to call- together the larger - copper producers, and to explain to them how serious would be the position if the small as well as the large copper mines were closed down. The metallurgical’ adviser to the Government (Sir John Higgins) was- then able to induce the principal copper- producers to finance the- smaller producers- through that, period of trouble. When it seemed likely that we would not be; able te renew the contract over 1919, and knowing, as we did, that by the- end; ofl October the mines would begin to feel the pressure caused by uncertainty, as to whether we would be able to make a new contract, I asked Sir John Higgins to make a similar - arrangement to that: made during this- year. He assures- me that he has been able to do so. I have not entered’ into the exact details; because neither the Commonwealth Bank, nor the Commonwealth Treasury are parties to the transaction. It is a mutual, cooperative arrangement for temporarily financing the large and small producers alike.

Mr Higgs:

– As between the larger companies ?

Mr WATT:

– And the smaller com- panies. The’ larger companies have means of assisting the smaller one3. The arrangement was then, and is no doubt now, on the basis of a payment of 80 per cent. on the copper contract prices. If my honorable friend desires further information as to how the arrangement is operating, I shall be able to obtain it for him by the end of this week.

page 8516

QUESTION

MANUFACTURE OF WOOLLENS

Mr LISTER:
CORIO, VICTORIA

– In view of the necessity for the further encouragement of our primary and secondary industries, I desire to ask the Acting Prime Minister whether the Government will consider the advisableness of asking the Prime Minister (Mr. Hughes) at an early date to” enter into negotiations with a view to purchasing from manufacturers in Great Britain the machinery necessary to duplicate our existing plants for the manufacture of woollen cloth?

Mr WATT:
NAT

– I have had no request of the kind from the manufacturers of woollen cloth. If such a request be made by them it will be considered on its merits.

page 8516

QUESTION

SOLDIERS’ INSURANCE AND PENSIONS

Dr MALONEY:

– Will the Acting Prime Minister (Mr. Watt) despatch a cablegram to the Government of the United States of America, asking for all particulars in regard to its schemes for the insurance of soldiers, pensions for. soldiers and’ their dependants, and any information it can supply in regard to its repatriation proposals ?

Mr WATT:
NAT

– The honorable member, I think, asked me a somewhat similar question earlier in the year. I then replied that through the agency of the Victorian State Insurance Office we had been able to obtain all the information we thought necessary.

Dr Maloney:

– That related only to the question of insurance.

Mr WATT:

– I shall ascertain whether any further provision in reference to repatriation has since been made.

page 8516

POSTAL DEPARTMENT

Preference to Returned Soldiers

Mr HECTOR LAMOND:
ILLAWARRA, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Has the Postmaster-General (Mr. Webster) seen a statement issued by authority of’ the

Returned Soldiers Association in Sydney with reference to the employment of returned soldiers in temporary work in the Postal Department; and, if so, has he any explanation to offer ?

Mr WEBSTER:
NAT

– I have not seen the statement referred to, but if the honorable member will submit it to me it shall have consideration.

page 8516

QUESTION

QUARANTINE STATION, SYDNEY

Treatment of Soldiers

Mr FINLAYSON:

– I desire to ask the Acting Minister for Trade and Customs (Mr. Greene) a question that seems to be urgent, in regard to the treatment of returned soldiers at the Quarantine Station in Sydney. A letter came into my hand to-day, dated the 24th of this month, written by a private soldier, and I should like to read the following extract : - . . Well, fancy us landed back in Australia again, and in such style. Things are serious, though, here on North Head, and a good many chaps are pretty crook. Personally, I spend most of my time working my nut to get something to eat. …

We had an awful time on the Medio. Nearly 200 patients were lying on the dirty troop deck, or in hammocks, while the old boat was rolling so much that the movement made one’s head ache worse, while all we had for meals was dry stale bitter bread, cut thick, with a scraping of doubtful butter. . .

We have a good army of about thirty sisters now, and they are doing their best to make our lives happy, but they find it hard to make bread out of stones.

I think the Minister will agree that this matter requires looking into, and I ask him to take immediate steps to see that this state of affairs is remedied.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I shall have immediate inquiries made into the allegations contained in the letter, so far as they affect the quarantine authorities. If the Defence Department is also concerned, I shall ask the authorities there to also make inquiries.

page 8516

QUESTION

IMPERIAL CONTRACTS

Unsold Commodities

PEACE CELEBRATIONS

Postal Holiday in Queensland.

Mr FINLAYSON:

– ‘Saturday is proclaimed a public holiday in Queensland to celebrate the conclusion of the war. I should like to know whether the PostmasterGeneral (Mr. Webster) will consider the propriety of giving the postal servants a holiday on that day, along with other members of the Commonwealth Public Service?

Mr WEBSTER:
NAT

– Saturday is a holiday in the Federal Departments in Queensland, in accorda*nce with the law and previous Cabinet decision, and it will be so regarded and observed this week.

page 8517

QUESTION

QUEENSLAND JAM

Mr BAYLEY:
OXLEY, QUEENSLAND

– Having in view that the sun-kissed fruits of Queensland are pre-eminently suited for jam making, and that the jam-makers of that State’ place on the market a product second to none, will the Acting Minister for Trade and Customs (Mr. Greene), when entering into future contracts with the Imperial or other Governments, see that Queensland receives its right quota, and not, as in the past, a meagre portion of the total amount?

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– If there are any future contracts let through the Commonwealth Government, and I remain in my present position, I shall be glad to see that Queensland gets her full share. I shall be pleased to communicate to the Minister for Trade and Customs, in due time, the question of the honorable member, with, a view to Queensland always getting’ her full’ share of anything that, is going.

page 8518

QUESTION

PRICE OF BUTTER

Mr J H CATTS:

– I desire to know whether the increase in the price of butter, announced in to-day’s press, is the result of the- recommendation of officers of the Price-fixing- Department, based on inquiry made by the price-fixing officials?

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– It is the result of inquiries made by the Government in many directions in regard’ to the prospects generally and the result of the season so far.

Mr J H CATTS:

– Will the Minister lay on the table of the Library all papers, reports,, and written information he may have on which the price, of butter has been increased?

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– There is- no objection to. doing so.

page 8518

QUESTION

PRICE OF SUGAR

Mr FINLAYSON:

– Has any consideration been given again to the margin of profit allowed to: retail grocers on their sales of sugar?-. The: margin of profit is admittedly notoriously inadequate, and if the matter- has not: yet. been, considered^ will it receive the attention of the Government?

Mr WATT:
NAT

– The Minister forPrice Fixing has arranged that matter. I understand that, at the wish of the Cabinet, the whole question was reviewed, but whether any arrangement was made or not I am not. aware.

page 8518

QUESTION

DEPARTMENT OF REPATRIATION

Factories and Co-operative Woollen Mills- Position of Demobilized Recruits - Conference of DeputyComptrollers - Brisbane Staff.

Mr GREGORY:

asked the Minister representing the Minister for Repatriation, upon notice -

Whether he will assist returned soldiers who are incapacitated from following their ordinary avocation by the establishment of a pearl-shell button and ornament factory in Western Australia, and also make the manufacture of such goods an industry for which returned soldiers would have a monopoly in Australia?’

Mr GROOM:
NAT

– The Minister for Repatriation is inquiring into the possibilities of the suggested industry, and is now awaiting advice from abroad.

Mr GREGORY:

asked the Minister representing the- Minister for. Repatriation, upon notice -

Will the Minister consider the advisability of initiating the building of co-operative woollen mills in the- various States, returned soldiers and their families to be the- only shareholders and, employees- other than the superintending staff, the Department retaining sufficient, control until the capital has been repaid?

Mr GROOM:

– The Minister, for Repatriation will willingly consider any practical proposalwhich.may be submitted to- this end;

Mr WALLACE:
WEST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

asked, the Minister representing’ the Minister for Repatriation, upon notice -

Whether those men who were discharged from the- Australian- Imperial Force consequent: on demobilization will be entitled to the benefits of the repatriation scheme on the sameterms as troops that have served oversea?

Mr GROOM:

– Any. of the men. referred to may register for employment without sustenance, while any who may have suffered material prejudice or disability from enlistment are eligible for the full benefits of the repatriation scheme;

Mr GROOM:

– With reference to the question submitted to- me in the House recently by the honorable member for Wannon (Mr. Rodgers), relative to- the calling together of Deputy-Comptrollers, I am in receipt ofthe following reply from the Comptroller of the Department of Repatriation : -

I have to advise that such a conference is not deemed to be necessary for the purposes indicated. It; is, however, intended, to. arrange a conference of Deputy-Comptrollers, when such can be arranged without detriment to the business of the Department. Similar conferences-, of representatives of the State. Boards will bo held from time to time, one conference of the kind already having been held.

Mr GREGORY:

asked the Minister representing the Minister for Repatriation, upon notice -

Has his attention been called to a. report from Brisbane, published in the Melbourne press, in which lit states, referring -to members of the Brisbane staff, “ The Department has in its possession complete records of all the men concerned, including alleged shell-shock cases, who, so far from having beenin the . firing line, have never been away from . Brisbane “ 1
Is there anytrruth in, or justification for, this report?

Mr GROOM:

– A report is ‘being . called for from the Brisbane office.

page 8519

RETURNING SOLDIERS

Railway Passesfor Relatives

Mr LISTER:

asked the Acting Prime

Minister, upon notice -

Whether it is a fact that . only second-class warrants for railway passes are issued “to relatives whenproceeding to the capital cities . of the various States to meet returning soldiers, and that similar concessions only, i.e, secondclass tickets, ace granted to the soldiers themselves”?
In view of the oft-repeated expression that we cannot do toomuch for those who have made heroic sacrifices, does the Government consider such treatmentfair and equitable?
Will the Minister issue instructions that, first-class railway warrants ‘be provided for these persons in future?

Mr WATT:
NAT

– Concessions in regard to railway travelling are made by the various State Governments. In States where the relatives are being ‘Carried free to meet the returning Anzacs,they travel first class. Also the men themselves are -granted free first class . ticketsby the various State ‘Go- vernments duringtheirfurlough. The Commonwealth ‘Government has taken as its share thetransportation ofthe troops to Australia, and thepayment to them of an . allowance of 3s. per diem above their pay -.duringthe time they are on furlough.

page 8519

QUESTION

INTERNMENTOFBYCLKE BOCSEN

Mr FINLAYSON:

asked the Assistant Minister for Defence, upon notice -

Is it a fact that aMr.Raoul Couturier., a native ofFrance, is at present an internee in the Concentration Camp in New South Wales?
If so, (a) why was thisman arrested under . the name of Byclke . Bocsen; (b) why was his application for naturalization refused; (c) for what reasons was this native of an allied, and friendly country arrested and interned?

Mr WISE:
Honorary Minister · GIPPSLAND, VICTORIA · NAT

– The answers to. the honorable member’s questions are as follow: -

This Department has no . record of any personnamed Raoul Couturier interned in the (Concentration Camp.
A person , of German nationality, named Bjelke Bocsen (orBosen), otherwise Xarus Sphynx, . whomay ; be the person referred to, was arrested and interned on 19th June, 1918. There is no record of . an . application for naturalization. He has claimed to havebeen born in Belgium (not France), but has never claimed that ho was” a subject of an allied country.

page 8519

QUESTION

CIVILIANS INTERNED IN GERMANY

Mr FINLAYSON:

asked the Acting Prime Minister, upon notice -

Whether the Government are in receipt of ‘any information as -to the prospects of the release of interned civilian prisoners in Germany?
What was the result of the . representations which the Government promised to make to the Imperial authorities on this matter?
Will the Minister press -the case of those Australians held as civilian prisoners upon the notice of the authorities with a viewto their earlyrelease?

Mr.WATT.-The answers tothe honorable -member’s questions . -are as follow: -

As the armistice provides for the immediate repatriation without Reciprocity of all Allied prisoners . in the hands of itheenemy, it is understood that . the Australian civilian prisoners will, together with other British prisoners interned in Germany, be released and transferred to England as ‘.soonastransportaccommodation ‘is available. The Secretary of State forthe Colonies telegraphedrecently that ‘every . effort : isbeing . made torepatriate the prisonersas soon as ‘possible, : andinsurethewelfareof thoseremaining an Germany, and fromacalb’le recently -receivedfromthe High Commissioner, London, at . appears that thecrew of the ‘s.s. Matrmga . are . expected to . arrive in -the ‘United Kingdomvery shortly,, and that arrangements will be made torepatriatethe ‘prisoners concerned to Australia, and in the meantime to attend to their -wants in -the way of advances of -money and supplies of clothing, &c.
Representations havebeenmadefrom time to time regarding the welfare . of Australian prisoners,both . military and civilian, and reports received indicate that , the case -of . Australian civilian prisoners is being kept . closely under notice in -every -respect.
TheGovernment has . already been . informed thateverything possible is ‘being done to expediterelease of -prisoners of . all classes.

page 8519

QUESTION

NATURALIZATION OF RUSSIANS

Mr BLAKELEY:

asked the Minister for (Home and Territories, upon notice -

Whether.it is a fact that Russian subjects, resident in Australia, are not able to obtain naturalization certificates, unless they have served in the Australian Imperial Force?
If so, whyis this distinction made?

Mr GLYNN:
Minister for Home and Territories · ANGAS, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · NAT

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

Yes.
Owing to the unsettled political situation in Russia, it is thought undesirable to naturalize persons from that country at present, but returned soldiers who have fought with our Forces deserve and obtain special consideration.

page 8520

QUESTION

POSTMASTER-GENERAL’S DEPARTMENT

Permanent Positions for Returned Soldiers

Mr BLAKELEY:

asked the PostznasterGeneral, upon notice -

Whether the Minister, will favorably consider the question of admitting as permanent employees the 772 returned soldiers who are employed as temporary assistants, postmen, and mail-drivers by allowing them to compete in the periodical examinations?

Mr WEBSTER:
NAT

– The Acting Public Service Commissioner has furnished the following information: -

There are 146 existing vacancies in the positions named, while 396 permanent officers of those designations whose positions have been filled are on active service, and must be provided with positions upon their return to Australia. In addition, there is a large number of similar officers on active service, whose positions have been kept open for them, and who will replace temporary employees upon their return to duty. In the circumstances it is not seen that any provision can be made for the permanent appointment of the temporary employees referred to.

page 8520

QUESTION

PUBLIC SERVICE

Second Period offurlough.

Mr MAHONY:
DALLEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

asked the Acting Prime Minister, upon notice -

Will the Minister state whether the Government has decided to adopt the recommendation of the Acting Public Service Commissioner in regard to the second period of furlough, and, if so, will an amendment of the Act be made this session?

Mr WATT:
NAT

– The honorable member is probably not aware that this question has already been answered more than once this session. I recommend my friend to see the answers in Hansard.

page 8520

QUESTION

PROTECTION FOR NEW INDUSTRIES

Mr FENTON:

asked the Acting-Prime Minister, upon notice -

Whether it is a fact that new industries established during the period of the war are in a precarious position owing to the uncertainty which exists in respect to their protection in the after-war period? 2.If so, will the Acting Prime Minister take immediate steps to protect and save these new Australian industries?

Mr WATT:
NAT

– The’ answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow: -

In my opinion the anxiety with regard to some new industries and to many old industries is induced more by doubts caused by such questions as that of the honorable member, and through apprehension at the demands of the militant section of the industrialists than by any Tariff considerations.
So far as this Government is concerned, whatever measure of protection is deemed reasonable and warranted as a result of inquiries and a consideration of all the circumstances, will be afforded. Further, the Government intends to continue the existing policy of supporting local industry in connexion with the purchase of supplies required for Commonwealth Departments and undertakings.

page 8520

QUESTION

PASSENGER FARES OVERSEAS

Mr CORBOY:
SWAN, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

asked the Acting Prime Minister, upon notice -

Is it a fact that the Government authorized an increase in passenger fares overseas in order to prevent unnecessary travelling?
If so, are any steps now being taken, to effect a reduction in such fares?
If not, why not?

Mr WATT:
NAT

– Vessels at present trading between Australasia and the United Kingdom are under the control of. the Imperial Government. The fares at present charged were fixed by that Government. Any increased in fares and freights were due to war conditions and risks. No intimation of any proposed reduction in fares has yet been received, but a recent announcement of the British Government indicates that freights have been considerably reduced.

page 8520

QUESTION

TRAMWAY EMPLOYEE DISMISSED

Mr GROOM:
NAT

– With reference to the question asked in the House recently by the honorable member for Newcastle (Mr. Watkins) relative to the dismissal by the

New South Wales Tramway Department of an employee, I am informed that Senator Millen has directed an inquiry to the Tramway Department.

page 8521

QUESTION

SALE OF WHEAT TO JAPAN

Mr WATT:
NAT

– Yesterday the honorable member for Darling (Mr. Blakeley) asked -

How manybushels of wheat were sold to Japan at 6s.½d., and -how many bushels at Cs. 4½d., or between that amount and the preceding price?
How many bushels of wheat were sold to South Africa at 5s. and 6s.10d. (parcels), or between these prices? ‘
How many bushels were sold to South Africa at 7s. c.i.f., and 9s. 9d. c.i.f., or between these prices?
How many ‘bushels were sold to ‘New Zealand at 5s. 6d. and5s. 7½d., or between these prices ?

I have been supplied with the following information : -

No. 1.- (a) 356,800 bushels at 6s.1½d.; (b) 106,400 bushels at 6s. 4½d.; (c) nil between 6s.1½d. and6s. 4½d.

No. 2.- (a) 113,900 bushels at 5s.; (b.) 15,680 bushels at 6s. 10d.; (c) 1,260,187 bushels between’ these prices.

No. 3.- (a) 94,154 bushels at 7s. c.i.f.; (b) 98,187 bushels at 9s. 9d. c.i.f.; (c) 4,449,835 bushels at between these prices.

No. 4.- (a) 1,150,053 bushels at 5s. 6d.; (b) 4,000,000 bushels at 5s. 7½d.; (c) nil between these prices.

page 8521

ASSENT TO BILLS

Assent to the following Bills reported : -

Control of Naval Waters Bill.

Service and Execution of Process Bill.

page 8521

IRON AND STEEL BOUNTY BILL

Second Reading

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I move -

That this Bill be now read a second time.

Dr Maloney:

– I thinkwe should have aquorum, if these empty benches indicate what the House thinks of Pro tection we should shut up. [Quorum formed. ]

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Of course, the bounty will be payable to any manufacturer who, during the period for which it operates, produces any of the articles to which it applies, and 1 have not the slightest doubt that Messrs. Hoskins and Company, of Lithgow, will press ahead with some of the works they propose to erect, and will receive portion of the bounty that will be payable for the manufacture of plain and galvanized iron.

I think I have shown that the industry is of sufficient importance, and that the prospects of its successful establishment in Australia are bright enough to justify the Government in submitting this proposal to Parliament. I wish to refer briefly to the majority report of the Inter-State Commission which investigated this subject in 1914, and to compare its recommendations with the provisions of the Bill -

The Inter-State Commission’s inquiry was made when freights were normal, ranging from 22s. 6d. to 27s. 6d. per ton, and averaging about 25s. per ton. Of course, the freight constitutes an additional protection. Whilst we can only guess what the future holds in store, yet the Government and Messrs. Lysaght and Company were firmly of the opinion that during the currency of this bounty freights are not likelyto fall below £2 10s. perton.That freight is the basis of the proposals which are contained in the Bill. By adding that freightto the rates of bounty mentioned in the (Bill, honorable members will find that in every case the proposals of the

Government are slightly in excess of those recommended by the Inter-State Commission.

Mr Tudor:

– How does the honorable member make up the total protection of £5 10s. per ton?

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Bounty , duty,and freight make a totalprotection against the United Kingdom of £5 10s. per ton. The bounty is payable conditionally upon certain freights being charged, and, taking all the factors into consideration, the Board of Trade regarded the total protection proposed as being £5 10s. per ton against the United Kingdom.

Mr McWilliams:

– What percentage duty would that mean?

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Assuming that the f.o.b. price after the war is £20 per ton, it would be roughly 27 per cent. or 28 per cent.

Mr McWilliams:

– But will it be £20 per ton after the war?

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– It is difficult to say what the price will be. Before the war the landed cost in Australia was somewhere in the vicinity of from £18 to £20 per ton. The market varied from time to time.

The impression we have formed is that, having regard to the very sharp rise in wages which has taken place in manufacturing centres in Europe, America, and elsewhere during the war, it is not at all likely that wages there will drop to any great extent in the near future. Our belief is that the wages and industrial conditions of other European, countries will more closely approximate to our own in the future than has hitherto been the case.

Mr West:

– We hope so.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– The industrial conditions of our workers, taking them all in all, are perhaps amongst the best in the world,and we can only hope that the same conditions will obtain elsewhere. I feel that it is not at all likely - and this view is shared by a large number of gentlemen with whom I have been in contact of late - that many of the commodities that we imported at particularly cheap rates prior to the war will fall to their old level for many a long day. it, indeed, they ever do. That in itself means an additional protection. If it be said that our view is too optimistic my reply is that it is shared, by the men who propose to engage in this industry. Messrs. Lysaght tell us that they are prepared at once to lay down at Newcastle a plant capable of turning out 20,000 tons a year. Although that will not be sufficient to supply Australia’s requirements, it will at least be a good beginning. If it proves successful, as 1 hope it will, it will lead to the establishment of other works of a, similar kind in the near future.

Let me turn for a moment or two to the actual provisions of the Bill. Honorable members will have noticed that in this Bill we have incorporated the principle found in practically every other measure providing for the payment of a bounty that the bounty shall be payable in the first place only on galvanized iron and black sheets produced from Australian iron and steel.

Mr West:

– Clause 3 gives power to pay the bounty on galvanized iron and black sheets produced from imported material.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Should circumstances arise which lead the Minister administer - ing the Act to believe that it is desirable that the bounty should be given in respect of material manufactured from imported blooms, he will have power under that clauseto pay it. The clause was inserted with a definite object in view. The Government recognise that there are not many manufacturers of iron and steel blooms in Australia.

Mr West:

– There are only two.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Quite so, and it is possible that there may be three’ manufacturers of galvanized iron. I do not say that any of the firms at present engaged in the production of iron and steel here will attempt anything of the kind, but some firms engaged in the industry might set to work to ‘ ‘ squeeze ‘ ‘ the manufacturers of galvanized iron.

Mr Tudor:

– Mr. Hoskins and the Broken Hill Company are producing their own blooms. Does this clause mean that the Minister might allow the third manufacturer to import his blooms and to get the same amount of bounty in respect of galvanized iron and black sheet produced from those blooms?

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– The Minister administering the Act would have to be satisfied first of all that the industry could not be carried on successfully without the importation of blooms.

Mr McWilliams:

– The Government want this power in order to check monopoly.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– That is the only, reason for the clause. I think it is a safe provision to make, and one which the Minister for Trade and Customs, whoever he may be, can be trusted to administer in the interests of the Commonwealth. The manufacturers, whoever they may be, should be given this protection.

Dr Maloney:

– Does the honorable gentleman speak of the manufacturer as distinct from the ironmaster?

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Yes. We have not only tried to protect the manufacturer of galvanized iron and black sheets by providing in this way for the payment of bounty ; but, in order to protect the public, we have introduced a principle that is entirely new to-this class of legislation. We have inserted a clause setting forth that no bounty shall be paid to any manufacturer who is making more than 15 per cent, on his enterprise. It the industry is paying so well that a manufacturer can make 15 per cent, on his enterprise, no bounty, in our opinion, should be paid.

Mr Charlton:

– Would not 10 per cent, be sufficient ?’

– Probably- more. ‘ If Honorable members will’ look- up the statis-tics which are provided: by the CustomsDepartment, and compare- the price of pig iron and steel rails four or five years: ago with the price to-day; they- will see that the increase is- nothing, when, we have regard’ to the increase in the price of galvanized iron. The freight on one should not be cheaper- than the freight on* the other, though it may; perhaps, be cheaper on- pig; iron, because’ it is more easily handled:

Mi-. McWilliams - It is cheaper: onsteel rails, which .are largely used as ballast.

Mr TUDOR:

Clause 3 allows the Minister to agree to the use of imported sheet bar steel for the manufacture of black steel sheets. This provision is included in the Bill in order to prevent firms in Australia from refusing to sell to other people, but I consider that the firm which lays itself out to manufacture the complete article is just as much entitled to protection as is the firm which is only laying itself out to finish the article. I hold no brief for the Broken Hill Company or for Hoskins Limited - I have said some hard things about them; but if either of these firms is fully employed on general work, and is turning out only 20,000 tonsof pig iron, just sufficient for the requirements of its own mills, is it right for us to say to it, “ You must cease manufacturing plates for shipbuilding or steel rails; you must make so many blooms, and turn them into bars in order to supply the requirements of these other people “ ? “We might just as well go to a boot manufacturer and ask him to make 1,000 pairs of boots, but not to complete them, but to allow some one else to finish them off. He would at once object, because it would mean that he would have to keep his own finishers standing idle. We might just as well ask a hat manufacturer to make 1,000 bodies, and allow another firm to block and trim them, and, in fact, finish off the hats.

Mr McWilliams:

– But these firms could crush out rivals by refusing to supply them.

Mr TUDOR:

– I admit that that could be done. The honorable member for East Sydney (Mr. West)claims that they are doing it to-day. But I am pointing out that there is something to be said on the other side. If a man who has his blast furnace turning out a certain quantity of pig iron, and a mill turning out a certainquantity of blooms and bars, desires to continue the process, he will so arrange his plant in consecutive order that he will have the mill turning out pig iron, blooms, and bars, and, close at hand, the machines for rolling and galvanizing. Yet now we propose to tell him that he must have a furnace large enough to turn out more than he needs for his own requirements, and that he must depend upon another man buying from him.

Mr McWILLIAMS:
FRANKLIN, TASMANIA · REV TAR; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; CP from 1920; IND from 1928

– We simply state that if he will not supply the other man, we will not allow him to crush the other out of the business.

Mr TUDOR:

– If we permit bars to be imported, we shall defeat the object of the Bill, and, in the manufacture of galvanized iron, we shall not be making use of Australian limestone or Australian coal, but will be importing the article in a highly finished state. It is quite possible that clause 3 may defeat the object of theBill. Some of the firms which are making pig iron and steel may be prepared to enter into an agreement with other people to supply their requirements. I hope that such will be the case; but there are dangers in the clause.

Many of us have seen houses where the galvanized roofing has practically rusted through, so that one can thrust his fingers through it as if it were tissue paper. This occurs in places close to the sea, or in localities where smelting works are situated. The chemicals employed . in the smelting operations have this effect, particularly at Queenstown. A letter appeared in this morning’s newspapers from a practical man dealing with this subject, and I would like the Minister to make inquiries into the correctness of the statement the writer has made that galvanized iron lasts longer than galvanized steel.

Mr Riley:

– That is so.

Mr TUDOR:

– The honorable member, as a builder, should know. If we can discriminate, we should give the bounty for the production of the better article. The matter is one into which the Minister should make an inquiry.

Mr Riley:

– Galvanized steel’ does not last half so long as galvanized iron.

Mr TUDOR:

– I hope that the honor’ able member and otherpractical men will give the House the benefit of their knowledge on this subject, so that we may legislate on right lines. I am glad that a Bill to encourage the establishment of another industry which will use Australian raw material has been introduced, because when this industry is established we should be independent of supplies from overseas. Regarding plates for tinning, members who can add anything to our knowledge should do so. A bounty at some future time might make us independent of the supplies that we now get from South Wales; because we have in Australia tin as well as the other raw materials needed. Whether £200,000 is sufficient to do what we need, experience alone can show. I should have liked to see in the Bill a provision similar to that inserted in previous legislation, enabling a State to take over the works if it considered that desirable. Such a provision would have made the limitation of profit unnecessary. I trust that the Bill is a forerunner of others which will place Australian industries on a better footing in the future than they have been. on in the past.

Mr LECKIE:
Indi

.- I am glad that the measure has been brought forward, because the industry which it seeks to establish is a big industry, and vitally necessary to Australia. Owing to the fact that we were not making tin plates, we had to pay during the war £1,500,000 extra for our supplies of this commodity, that is, not excluding galvanized iron. I am puzzled . to know why the Government propose a bounty for galvanized iron and for plain black sheets. The quantity of black sheets used for ceilings and other purposes is not one-tenth of the quantity made into tin plates, and I would prefer a bounty on tin plates to the bounty on black sheets. If the tinning of black sheets is not done in Australia, we may still be in as bad a position as we are in at present. The production of tin plates is especially needed in a country such as this, which exports great quantities of tinned provisions. Unless we can get a particular quality of tin plate cheaply, we cannot export many of our productions, such as jam, fruit, butter, and meat, in certain forms. Our trade in these lines has expanded greatly during the war. We have established a standard of quality that is generally appreciated, but unless we can obtain tin plates cheaply we cannot hold our foreign markets against competition. Before . the war a 2-lb. jam or fruit container cost to manufacture a little less than1d., and costs now to manufacture between 2½d. and 2¾d.

Sir Robert Best:

– I suppose that tin plate must be used for these containers.

Mr LECKIE:

– For fruit, certainly. A substitute for tin plate has been sought, but the Committee that investigated the matter recommended a substitute which actually costs more than tin plate. I was inclined to think that clause 3, which allows a manufacturer to use imported’ steel for making galvanized steel and black sheets should be struck out of the Bill; but the Minister’s remarks have gone far to remove my objection to it, though I feel that the permission to import is one that must be given only with the greatest discretion. It would not do to establish an industry here which would , be wholly or largely dependent on other countries for its supply of steel, because we should not then be in a much better position, should war break out again, than we are in at present. There are now, however, only one or two manufacturers of pig iron and steel in Australia, so that it may be necessary at first to give to the makers of steel sheets, black sheets, and galvanized iron the right to import raw material. But the Minister must give permission for this only with very great discretion. It must be our object to establish an industry that will be self-supporting in every particular, from the raw material to the finished product. The bounty, including freight, on galvanized iron, plain and corrugated, is equivalent to a protection of about £5 10s. per ton, according to the Minister. When asking the Committee to confirm the expediency of granting a sum for the purposes of the Bill, the honorable gentleman said that a certain firm had stated that if the protection amounted to £6 per ton, it would commence manufacturing without any bounty at all; but to-day he has said that £5 10s. will be sufficient protection.

The manufacture of thin black sheets for tinning, or for such things as ceilings, will have a protection of only £4. I do not know” the reason for the difference. To my mind, the making of tin plates is of more importance to the primary industries of Australia than is the manufacture of galvanized iron, though I recognise the importance of the latter industry. I ask the Minister to make sure that the proposed bounty is sufficient. Should it not be, he should make arrangements for a bounty equal to that which is to be given for the manufacture of galvanized iron. Encouragement by bounties is preferable to protection by import duties, because the latter in the early stages increases prices to the local consumers. If the cost of tin plates were increased by £5 10s. per ton, the cost of a 2-lb. jam container would be increased by about £d!., and the increase of the jam to the consumer would be considerably greater. As to the provision that a bounty is not to be given to a firm that is making a profit of 15 per cent, on its capital, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Tudor) has expressed’ the fear that manufacturers may evade it by false bookkeeping. I have not so much fear of that, but I think that the clause may operate somewhat harshly. If the Minister is willing to define capital as it is denned in the War-time Profits Act, namely, as money employed in the business, I have no objection to urge to the clause. Where a firm is not very highly capitalized, but is using a lot of borrowed money, a profit of 15 per cent. may not amount to much, although 15 per cent, may be a big profit to a firm with a large capital. There are other matters on which I shall speak when the Bill gets into Committee. I congratulate the Government on having chosen this method to encourage the establishment in Australia of a big basic industry. If during the last four years we had had in Australia establishments manufacturing black steel sheets, the country would have been saved fully £1,500,000, because we should have been able to export greater quantities of our primary products - notably, butter, jams, and fruits. Being able to sell at a much lower price than that which we were compelled to quote, we could have increased our exports by probably 100 per cent. I emphasize the fact that it is absolutely necessary to take steps to prevent us finding ourselves in- the same position that we have been in during the war. We must get supplies of tin plates for containers at as cheap a rate as. possible, because upon the price of those containers depends very largely the rate at which we can sell many of our primary products, and the profits which the producers get for their commodities. -

Dr MALONEY:
Melbourne

.- I am glad to , add my thanks to the Ministry for having introduced this Bill, and I was glad to listen to the speech of the Minister in introducing it. Iron is the mainstay of science in every country, second only in importance to coal and lime, but I suggest that we ought to include in a Bill of this character two other minerals, known as rare metals, namely, molybdenum and tungsten. In America molybdenum has proved to be more valuable than tungsten, but as the iron and steel masters of that country were more assured of supplies of tungsten, they placed molybdenum at a lower value. Consequently, in 1916., molybdenum was sold at as high a price as £1,792 per ton, and tungsten at £4,480 per ton. In Australia prices have been fixed by law, and molybdenite was sold to the Mother Country at £525 per ton. Tungsten, under the name of wolfram, was sold at as low a price as £210 per ton. The Government would be wise to look into the future. They can purchase molybdenum in its natural and unrefined state of molybdenite cheaper than it can be obtained in any other country in the world. This country produces more than half the world’s total output of molybdenite. If either of these hardening metals were used as an. alloy in iron sheets or wire netting, the galvanizing process could be absolutely eliminated. At Queenstown, Tasmania, I saw galvanized iron sheets on the houses which, owing to the action of the fumes from the Mount Lyell mines, had a life of only five years ; but if those sheets were alloyed with molybdenum or tungsten, or a combination of both, the acid in the fumes from the mines would have no effect upon them. I quote from the United States Bulletin 111, Mineral Technology 15, issued by the Department of the Interior, in which it is stated under the authority of Borcher, perhaps one of the greatest metallurgical chemists in the world -

An alloy of 2 per cent, of molybdenum with 10 per cent, of chromium and little or no carbon is absolutely acid-proof. A combination of molybdenum (2 per cent.),’ chromium (60 per cent.), and iron (35 per cant.) will resist boiling aqua regia.

Perhaps that passage will be more clearly understood by honorable members if I’ explain to them that if fine leaves of gold are put into aqua regia, which is a mixture of nitric acid and hydrochloric acid, the gold will dissolve like sugar in coffee ; but, as Borcher says, a combination of molybdenum, chromium, and iron absolutely resists boiling aqua regia. These metals could be usefully employed in connexion with containers for jams, fruit, meat, and butter, which could not have any corrosive effect upon steel thus alloyed. On a Bill of this character it may not be permissible for a private member to propose an amendment which will increase the bounty payable, but if I am permitted to do so, I- shall move in Committee a- new clause or addendum -

Notwithstanding anything contained in this or any other Act, the bounty shall be increased by 10 per cent, on steel sheets that are manufactured with an alloy of molybdenum or tungsten.

As I have already said, Australia produces more than half the world’s supply of molybdenum. This alloy is used in the so-called rustless cutlery, and Mr. Firth, a bic manufacturer in England, assured Mr. Scantlebury, of Sydney, who is interested in these rarer metals, that his “ firm would be prepared to take over the whole of Australia’s production of molvbdenum for use in the manufacture of domestic cutlery. Honorable members may have seen the steel rails at a country railway station after a night’s rain bearing a coating of rust on their formerly shiny surface. If the steel were alloyed with molybdenum that rust would never’ be seen. That alloy can be used with particular advantage in cranks, shafts, axles, rails, rolling stock, motor frames, guns, and large ordnance. As honorable members are aware, the life of one of the large guns on a man-of-war is not more than ninety or 100 rounds, after which the gun must be sent to the factory to be re-wired. It is interesting to note that the British Government found, in connexion with German guns captured in the early days of the war, that, although the use of molybdenite as an alloy had increased the cost of manufacture by 10 per cent., the efficiency of the guns was increased by 2,000 per cent; The use of molybdenum enabled the Germans to use a gun with a larger range than even the big naval guns, and we are all aware that “ Big Bertha ‘ ‘ bombarded Paris from a distance of 75 ‘ miles, the shots occurring regularly every quarter of an hour. That gun Was evolved only through the use of a hardening alloy which prevented the corrosive action of the explosive. Molybdenite could be used also in rifles, and as it is gas resisting, it would considerably increase their life; in cutlery, and in magnets and maenetoes. I made a test with one of Bosch’s magnets and the best that can be produced from Swedish steel. My nephew proved that a steel file would not touch the Bosch magnet, whereas it easily dented the Swedish magnet. I believe that the superiority of the Bosch magnet is caused by the use of molybdenum alloy in steel. The iron of Sweden has a great reputation in Europe, and is equalled only by that taken from, the island of Elba in the Mediterranean. It could be used for fire-proofing, and it is a great germicide. It dyes blue woollens, rubber, leather, and silk, and is not injurious to rubber. It can be used to glaze pottery, to support the filaments in incandescent lamps, and in electricityresisting furnaces. Every honorable member who has had experience in Queensland, New South Wales, and Western Australia knows how the pipes of the artesian bores become choked owing to the chemical action of the mineral solutions contained in the water. Even the pipes in connexion .with the Western Australian goldfields water scheme must be replaced periodically on account of the corrosion, and the same thing happens in connexion with the pipes in the Yan Yean scheme. That trouble will disappear by the use of steel pipes alloyed with molybdenum. The uses of these two rare metals are a! very interesting development, and I have given some study to them during the last year. They will be of particular use in the hardening of tools. With the hardest steel previously known it was possible to cut only from 30 feet to 50 feet per minute through crucible steel. But bv the use of an alloy of molybdenum it is possible to cut 500 feet per minute. Tools may become red hot. or even white hot, without losing their temper. The melting point of molybdenum is 2,500 degrees- Centigrade, equal to 4,400 degrees Fahrenheit, and that is 1,400 degrees Centigrade above the melting point of copper, 1,000 degrees above iron, and 740 degrees over platinum. . Those figures explain why tools hardened with molybdenum do not lose their temper when used at a great heat. I have explained that the cost of molybdenum would be far less in Australia than in Europe. No metal has yet been known to suffer what is known as a pest which has life in either a vegetable or animal form, but tin has this peculiarity that, in the course of “time, it breaks up into minute globules, just as does mercury when thrown on a table, and that explains why we have no articles, of tin preserved from pre-historic times. Tin is not acid-resisting for so long a period as is an alloy of steel plus molybdenum and chromium. The Broken Hill Proprietary Company has taken an option over the Great Mammoth molybdenite mines in New South -Wales, and if a bounty were offered by the Government it might be induced to manufacture this class of steel.

Mr Leckie:

– The molybdenite would make the steel harder.

Dr MALONEY:

– And absolutely acid-resisting,

Mr Leckie:

– It spoils it by making it harder.

Dr MALONEY:

– I beg to differ. What I have in mind is tin used in the canning of jams, fruits, and meats. There is an old saying amongst miners that a tin of fish that appears to be blown out should be thrown away, since the contents are poisonous. There is good reason for that view. The cause of a tin being in such a condition has frequently been traced to the presence of a drop of solder used in stopping the little hole in the tin.

I have nothing but commendation for this Bill, and if I could persuade the Government to extend the bounty in the direction I have indicated I should be well satisfied: My desire is that we should be able to manufacture up to the highest economic value, producing the manufactured article from the raw material obtained from our own mines.

Mr CORSER:
Wide Bay

.- I congratulate the Government upon the introduction of this Bill, which I hope is but the forerunner of several others of a similar kind. I desire, however. to suggest to the Minister (Mr. .Greene) that he should consider the advisableness of providing for the standardizing of galvanized .iron. Compared with what we used to obtain in the old days, the quality of the galvanized iron and galvanized fencing wire now offering is very indifferent. “ Gospel Oak “ galvanized iron, which was obtainable in years gone by, had a life more than double that of the iron now manufactured. I have some “ Gospel Oak “ iron that has been on a roof for over forty years, and which I should be .sorry, even after that length of time, to replace by the galvanized iron now imported’ into Australia. In the case of such large States as Queensland and Western Australia, where enormous railage and cartage fees have to be paid in conveying galvanized iron and fencing wire over hundreds of miles to outback settlements, it is all important that- consumers should be able to secure material of the very best quality. No ordinary saving in price would compensate for the loss incurred in conveying galvanized iron and fencing wire of indifferent quality over long distances. We should be particularly careful to provide that the bounty shall be paid in respect only of iron of first class quality. I hope, therefore, that the Minister will provide either in the Bill itself or by regulations under it, that all galvanized iron in respect of which the bounty is paid shall be standardized.’ The Bill provides that the bounty sh.all be paid in respect of iron manufactured in accordance with the requirements of the Act and regulations, and if regulations were framed by which the quality would be assured, a tremendous boon would be conferred upon those residing in the back-blocks of this great continent. In no more effective way could the Government safeguard in this respect the interests of such people.

Mr. WEST (East Sydney) f5.ll] - I shall offer no opposition to this Bill. When I interjected while the Minister was introducing it that, under clause 3, power was given to pay the bounty on galvanized iron manufactured from imported steel blooms, I was under the impression that that provision was a violation of the object of the Bill. His explanation, however, has satisfied me on that point. During the last few weeks I have addressed to the Minister some very important questions bearing upon this matter. A certain firm carrying on business in Sydney, and employing a large number of men, found it impossible during the war to continue to import rods for the purpose of making wire netting and -fencing wire. Such rods are being manufactured at the Broken Hill Proprietary Company’s works at Newcastle, but the Sydney firm to which I refer discovered that an arrangement had been made by which all such rods manufactured at the Newcastle works were sent to the Austral Wire Nail Company, Melbourne. It endeavoured to obtain a supply for the purpose of drawing wire, and in answer to an inquiry which I made recently, the Minister informed me that it had received an offer to supply these rods. My information is that the rods can be obtained only from the Austral Wire Nail Company, Melbourne, and that that firm merely offered to take a draw off these rods, and to supply the Sydney firm with what was left, so that they could make wire netting out of it, which the firm refused owing to its impracticability. This only serves to show the kind of information with which Ministers are supplied. Since it seems to me possible that Messrs. Lysaght might have a similar experience, I feel that I can offer no objection to clause 3.

– I am hopeful for the future, for the war has changed the opinions of many in this . respect in Great Britain. With shipping once more ploughing the seas in the absence of the submarine menace, there is no doubt that large quantities of goods will be brought to Australia, and our Tariff does not afford sufficient protection to old established industries, to say nothing of new ones. The high freights have afforded some protection, but those freights may tumble down.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER (Hon J M Chanter:
RIVERINA, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I have allowed the honorable member considerable latitude, but he is now going quite beyond the question.

Mr FENTON:

– If so, it is only because I like to avail myself of an opportunity to express the views I hold. In the last day or two it has been announced that the United States has purchased nearly 1,000,000 tons of mercantile marine, and in my judgment the object is, as soon as possible, to land in Australia goods of the class on which we are now proposing to grant a bounty. If it is not permissible on this occasion, I shall certainly at some time do something to bring home to the Government the necessity for a scientific Protectionist Tariff.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time.

In Committee:

Clause 1 agreed to.

Clause 2 -

In this Act; unless the contrary intention appears - “ black steel sheets “ means black steel sheets, not exceeding one-sixteenth of an inch in thickness, made from Australian iron ore and steel manufactured in Australia, or from such imported sheet bar steel as is authorized in pursuance of section 3 of this Act. …

Mr PAGE:
Maranoa

.- I move -

That in line 3 the words “ or iron “ be inserted after the word “ steel,” first occurring

The honorable member for East Sydney. (Mr. West) has told us that black steel sheets are not as good as black iron sheets for galvanizing purposes. I do not see why we should give a bounty for an industry that will be nothing but a shandygaff one. If it is true that black iron is better than steel for galvanizing purposes, it should also get the bounty. I have seen Government specifications in Queensland which stated that no steel sheets must be used. There must be something wrong when a Government Department will not allow steel sheets to be used. I see no advantage in giving a bounty for steel sheets if they will not be extensively used. I hope that the Minister will agree to the amendment. The manufacture of iron is an easier process than that of making steel.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I am entirely in sympathy with the remarks which the honorable member has made, and with those that have fallen from other honorable members, but I am not quite clear as to the effect that his amendment would have. It will be necessary for me to make some inquiries, in order to ascertain exactly what may depend upon it before I consent to include it in the Bill. I shall have those inquiries made, and if I ascertain that the amendment will not do more than the honorable member has in his mind, namely, to include in the bounty corrugated iron which is made from black iron, and not steel, I shall be very glad to arrange for the amendment to be intro- duced in another place, and when it conies back to this Chamber the Government will offer no objection to it. I am inclined to think that more importance is attached to this matter than the circumstances justify. Certain grades of steel are used in the manufacture of galvanized iron as we know it in commerce. I understand that everything depends upon the grade of the actual steel used; and I do not think that soft iron is ever employed for galvanized iron for roofing purposes. However, I am not certain upon the point, and I shall have the matter inquired into. If the honorable member will withdraw his amendment, and the position is found to be as honorable members have represented it, the Government will offer no objection to making the alteration in another place.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- If iron is the superior article for galvanizing purposes, we should give the bounty for the iron and not for the steel article. What the Minister has said is hardly accurate.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I admit that I do not know anything about the technique of the matter.

Mr TUDOR:

– Most of us are in the same position. I have seen buckets, tubs, and other articles being dipped at Gold’s works, and I have gathered that the softer material takes the galvanizing better than the harder or more brittle material does. It seems to penetrate more. In electroplating it is often necessary to prepare a base before dipping some articles, and I understand that if a bit of native copper is dipped in gold it will look just like the real article. Quite possibly the same thing may occur in the- process of galvanizing. The Minister will be well advised to “make the inquiries he has promised. It would be a great pity if we did not give the bounty to the better article ; that is to say, the article with the longer life. We ought to give a guarantee to the people of Australia that the galvanized iron produced in the Commonwealth will be equal to, if not better than, that to which they have been accustomed. We should not give a bounty on an article that will soon wear out.

Mr PAGE:

– On the assurance that has been given by the Minister, I withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- Last week the honorable member for EdenMonaro (Mr. Austin Chapman) showed me a letter in which it was suggested that a thickness of l-16th is too little. * Mr. Greene. - The provision in the clause covers all that it is intended to cover. If we increased the thickness, we should have to pay on material on which we do not wish to pay.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 3 to 6 agreed to.

Clause 7 (Proof of good quality and compliance with Act to be furnished).

Mr Page:

– What means will be taken for getting the information that the article manufactured is of good quality?

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– The last clause of the Bill empowers the Governor-General to make regulations for, among other things, the inspection of the process or manufacture. We shall thus be able to appoint inspectors to see that effect is given to this clause.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- I presume that some” such system as was established under the Manufactures Encouragement Act in regard to the bounty on steel will be followed, and the manufactures on which bounty is claimed properly tested. In the early years of this Parliament it was alleged that persons were sending ruined cane to the mills merely to take advantage of the sugar bounty. We do not wish to pay bounty on manufactures fit only for the scrap heap.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 8 agreed to.

Clause 9 -

If the net profits of any person, firm, or. company claiming bounty under this Act exceed, in any year, fifteen per centum on the capital employed in the business, the Minister may withhold so much of the bounty payable as will reduce the net profits for that year to fifteen per centum on the capital employed in the business.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- I am afraid that this clause will be unworkable, though I have every sympathy with its object. In my opinion, firms will be able to . evade the clause by making it appear in their books that their profits on the manufacture of the article for which bounty is claimed was less than 15 per cent. Any man with a knowledge of business could frame his books to show that his profits arose chiefly from his operations in mining for iron or limestone or coal, or in the making of coke or other things. He could increase the apparent profit on other operations to reduce the profit arising from the manufacture of black sheets and galvanized sheets, plain or corrugated. Moreover, I think that, by fixing 15 per cent, as the rate of profit which may be earned, Parliament may be regarded as expressing the view that 15 per cent, is a proper rate of profit for any business. I doubt that many manufacturing firms would earn 15 per cent., and reference to a share list would show that many of them earn less than 10 per cent. I doubt whether the sum set apart for the payment of bounty will be enough. It allows only for the manufacture of about 20,000 tons, whereas our imports have been as much as 165,000 tons.

Mr CHARLTON:
Hunter

.- Whilst desirous of assisting in the establishment of the industry for which the Bill provides a bounty, I think that we should not pay bounty on a higher profit than 10 per cent. Persons will be quite prepared to invest capital in a business that will pay 10 per cent. Moreover, if we pay bounty on a profit of 15 per cent., the amount available for distribution may not be sufficient to cover the output. I do not think that we are justified in assisting with a bounty a company making a profit of 15 per cent. It is the taxpayers who must find the necessary money, and, whilst they will not object to the giving of this bounty, they will, I am sure, object to the giving of a bounty where it results iri the earning of an abnormal profit. Probably after the first few years the industry will be able to get on without a bounty. Certainly I hope so. I move -

That in line 3 the word “ fifteen “ be left out, with a view to insert the word “ten.”

Mr. GREENE (Richmond - Acting

Minister for Trade and Customs) [6.26]. - I should like honorable members to disabuse their minds of the idea that these companies, from their inception, are going to make a profit of 15 per cent. Messrs. Hoskins’ mill, for instance, is utterly useless for the manufacture of galvanized iron under ordinary commercial conditions. The firm entered upon the manufacture of galvanized iron on a previous occasion, and failed. It must fail again unless new plant is obtained, since that already in the mill is perfectly useless for the purpose. If it decided once more to enter upon this class of manufacture it would’ have practically to put in a new and. modern plant. In the first year of the industry, these firms may make a loss. In the second year they may secure a return of 2 per cent, or 3 per cent., and in the third year a return, perhaps, of 4 per cent., so that they will be very lucky if their average- return for the whole period in respect of which the bounty is payable amounts to 5 per cent. If honorable members are going to press this amendment, and so to declare that in the last year or two during which the bounty will be payable, these manufacturers shall not make more than 10 per cent., or an average profit of 2 per cent. for the whole period, they will destroy the whole effect of the Bill. They will not have industries established in Australia, and what is more, they will not deserve to have them established.

Mr TUDOR:
Tarra

. -It is interesting to listen to the appeal of the

Ministerial party for the “ poor struggling companies,” such as we read of in’ the report appearing in the morning’s issue of the Argus as to evidence given before the Inter-State Commission regarding those engaged in the production of building material. If there is anything that should be obtainable at a fair price - I do not say at a low price, because I want nothing cheap - it is bricks. It is absolutely impossible to secure, the housing accommodation required by the people in any of our capital cities. If that is the position to-day, what will it be when all our troops return? . We hear of people advertising for a house to rent, and offering as much as £5 for the key of a rented house. This is no mere fairy tale. It is a sworn statement made before the Inter-State Commission. The brick combine has been sucking the lifeblood of the people.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member does not put the brick-making industry in the same category as that covered by this Bill?

Mr TUDOR:

– No; but both belong to the same crowd that is piling up big dividends at the expense of the people who have to pay rent.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– When the honorable member, as leader of the Labour party, makes a statement of that kind;’ I am not surprised that firms of. this description are chary about commencing operations.

Mr TUDOR:

Mr CHARLTON:

– No; if there were such a guarantee, you would have everybody going into the industry. If the Government is not prepared to accept the amendment, I shall divide the Committee.

Mr LECKIE:
Indi

.- The definition of “ capital “ is not very definite ; and it depends on what you mean by “ capital “ whether the 15 per cent. is or is not too much.For instance, in the War-time Profits Bill, borrowed money and reserves are included in the “capital,’’ but in the Bill before us, it seems to refer only to- actual share capital employed. There may be a large amount of capital employed, and a company may have very big reserves, and yet have a relatively small share capital. On the other hand, this bounty operates for four years only, and those concerned have to look ahead. They have to realize that, at the end of four years, the protection of the bounty will be taken away, and have to ask themselves what their position will then be - whether they will be able to compete with Great Britain, America, and Japan. They have also to consider whether the machinery they have bought will or will not have to be scrapped. Looking at the matter from every point of view, I think it will be found very hard indeed to establish this business if, after taking into account all the risks incidental to the establishing of a new business, the profits are confined to 10 per cent. The object of this Bill is to establish an absolutely necessary basic industry, and I do not think the Committee should haggle about an extra 5 per cent. We must remember that the object of this Bill is to establish the industry, and that the bounty runs for four years only. At the end of that period expensive machinery may have to be scrapped. I fear that very few firms would agree to enter into the business with all the risks, attaching to it if they felt that they could not make up to 15 per cent. on their share capital.

Question - That the word “fifteen” stand as printed - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 32

NOES: 15

Majority … … 17

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Amendment negatived.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 10 - (Conditions of employment and rates of wages).

Mr.TUDOR (Yarra) [8.9].- This clause provides that the Minister may make application to the President of the Commonwealth Court of Conciliation and Arbitration for a declaration as to what wages and conditions of employment are fair and reasonable for labour employed in the manufacture of black steel sheets or galvanized sheets. I wish to know whether that provision will apply only to the stage of manufacture which is reached after the steel has been produced, or whether it will also cover the earlier stages in the production of pig iron. I understand that the Broken Hill Proprietary will sell their blooms or bars to Lysaghts, who will roll them into sheets and galvanize them, whereas Hoskins Limited are likely to carry through the whole process from beginning to end. If 20,000 tons of galvanized iron has to be produced every year, there will be a correspondingly large quantity of raw material used in the shape of iron ore, coal, and limestone, and I wish to know whether the rates of wages and conditions of employment will apply also to the men who are getting the iron ore, or the limestone, or are employed in the smelting operations.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– The intention of the Bill is to deal only with the production of sheets. If the Broken Hill Proprietary, who are supplying blooms to Lysaghts, are not paying the rates of wages touched upon, in this clause, the fact could not possibly affect Lysaghts’ claim to a bounty so long as they themselves are paying the rates of wages laid down by the Arbitration Court. I do not think that the clause does more than protect the employees in the industry this Bill is designed to establish and protect.

Mr Tudor:

– In those circumstances, the employees of Hoskins Limited, “who are engaged in the quarries or in the smelting operations, can be paid any wages the firm chooses to give them, but the men employed in the rolling-room, must be paid fair wages?

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Theoretically, that will be the case, but in actual practice it will not be so. There is hardly one branch of this industry that is not already subject to an award of an Arbitration Court, either State or Federal, and the probabilities are that the employees of these firms will become subject to an award immediately after this industry is’ commenced. In any case, if the employees do not take steps to approach the Court, this clause will leave it open to the Minister to do so, and will authorize him to withhold payment of the bounty . if an employer does not pay the rates of wages stipulated by the Arbitration Court.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 11 to 13 agreed to.

Schedule, preamble, and title agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment; report adopted.

Bill read a third time.

page 8545

NAVAL DEFENCE BILL

Bill received from the Senate, and (on motion by Mr. Poynton) read a first time.

Mr SPEAKER (Hon W Elliot Johnson:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES

– There can be no debate on the motion for the first reading of a Bill.

page 8545

DISTILLATION BILL

Second Reading

Debate resumed from 23rd October (vide page 7160), on motion by Mr. Jensen -

That this Bill be now read a second time.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- The Bill, like the Beer Excise and Tobacco Excise Bills, is largely technical, but there are one or two matters which I should like the Minister to explain. It is proposed to insert in the original Act the following new section : - 11a. The provisions of the last two preceding sections shall not apply to any still of a capacity not exceeding one gallon.

The sections referred to are these - 10.No person shall without permission -

Sell or purchase any still, either by itself or with other property, or as part of any premises.

Penalty : One hundred pounds.

(1)” Stills may be used for any purpose other than the distillation of spirits if the owner has -
1. Given written notice to the Collector for the State in which the still is used or is intended to be used, specifying
2. The size or capacity of the still;
3. the purpose for which the still is used or intended to be used;
4. the place where the still is to be used or intended to be used.
1. Given security to the Collector in such sum as the Collector requires, not exceeding One hundred pounds, that the still shall not be used for distilling spirits.
1. Persons unlawfully using stills at the commencement of this Act for any purpose other than the distillation of spirits shall be allowed a period of two months after the commencement of this Act to comply with the requirements of this section.
2. Any still used in contravention of this section’ shall be an illicit still.

It may be the desire of the Customs Department to encourage the use of small stills for experimental purposes. I pay great deference to the opinions of the officers of that Department, because I know how carefully they safeguard the revenue; but I wonder whether they have not gone too far in this matter. Even a still of a capacity of less than 1 quart could, if worked continuously, produce a large quantity of spirit. This spirit would probably be worth anything between 2s. 6d. and 5s. per gallon.

Mr Leckie:

– Eight shillings per gallon is being charged for grape spirit, without the Excise duty.

Mr TUDOR:

– Grape spirit is superior to spirit manufactured from many other cheaper ingredients. Alcohol can be obtained from maize, potatoes, beet, molasses, and other products. All the rum made in Australia is got from molasses. I should like to know from the Minister why these small stills are to be allowed to exist, without let or hindrance. I should also like some information regarding the alterations of licence-fees and security amounts provided for in clause 18.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– The reasons that actuate the Department in permitting the unrestricted use of small stills are, first, the heavy penalty to which the illicit distiller of spirits is liable, and, secondly, the fact that to distil potable spirit in a still of a capacity of less than 1 quart would be more costly than to buy the spirit at an hotel.

Mr Tudor:

– I doubt that.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– That is what my officers tell me. They are quite satisfied that it is impossible to produce spirit in these small stills at a cost which would not be in excess of the price at which it could be bought in the open market. They say that there is no risk to the revenue.

Mr Tudor:

– Is it not possible to have what is known as a continuous still with a capacity of a gallon, which, if run from 8 o’clock in the morning until 8 o’clock at night, would distil much more than a gallon?

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I am informed that that is not the case. The officers of the Department are very zealous in their desire to protect the revenue, but they are satisfied that this provision will not lead to illicit distillation. Throughout the Commonwealth, . there is a large number of stills used for experimental purposes, and they have given the Department ah enormous amount of trouble. As they are used entirely for scientific purposes, the Government do not feel justified in imposing a licence-fee that would be commensurate with the expense entailed by supervision.

Mr RICHARD FOSTER:
WAKEFIELD, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925

– The Government are creating trouble for themselves.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– If trouble does arise from this concession - and it is a concession for scientific purposes - it will be a comparatively simple matter to remedy the defect later.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time.

In Committee:

Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to.

Clause 3 -

After section 11 of the principal Act, the following section is inserted in Part II.: - 11a. The provisions of the last two precedingsections shall not apply to any still of a capacity not exceeding one gallon.

Sections referred to -

No person shall without permission -

make or commence to make any still;

sell or purchase amy still, either by itself or with other property, or as part of any premises;

Penalty: One hundred pounds. 11. (1) Stills may be used for any purpose other than the distillation of spirits if the owner has -

given security to the collector in such sum as the collector requires not exceeding One hundred pounds that thestill shall not be used for distilling spirits.

Any still used in contravention of this section shall be an illicit still.

Mr PAGE:
Maranoa

.- The Government are making a mistake in proposing to exempt stills of a capacity not exceeding 1 gallon. At Tambo, in Western Queensland, twenty-five years ago, I saw a man making whisky on the bank of the Barcoo River, and his still had not a capacity of half-a-gallon. Yet I have seen him produce a small cask of whisky in a very short time, and it was sold over an hotel bar. This clause is a premium on illicit distillation. No doubt the justification offered for it is that not much spirit can be made in a still of a capacity of 1 gallon ; but if it be run continuously night and day, hundreds of gallons of spirit can be produced in the course of a month.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– This concession is only for the benefit of stills used for laboratory purposes.

Mr PAGE:

– I know that, but the Government would be safeguarding the revenue if theylimited the capacity of the still to half-a-gallon. That will be no inconvenience to persons using a still in a laboratory, because they have plenty of time. In the Wide Bay district a few years ago, hundreds of illicit stills were in operation. All stills, of whatever capacity, ought to be licensed, just as, in most of the States, every gold-buyer is licensed. If the stills are registered, the Government will know where they are, and what is being done with them. All I ask of the Government is to do what is necessary to protect the revenue.

Mr PALMER:
Echuca

.- For some time past, we have been endeavouring, under the War Precautions Act and other Statutes, to limit the consumption of alcohol, hut the Government are now* submitting a provision that will tend to increase the consumption of liquor under conditions which they cannot control. If the idea is to exempt stills used for only scientific purposes, then all stills ought to be licensed, and licences for exempt stills should be granted only to persons who are engaged in some way in scientific research. Why should we make a general law which will enable anybody to illicitly manufacture spirits in competition ‘with, those who pay licence-fees? If I had my way, there would be no manufacture of spirits at all except for scientific purposes. I ask the Minister to take into serious consideration the desirability of’ amending the clause. There are in this country thousands of people who view the manufacture of spirits very seriously indeed. Why should the Government bring in a Bill that will allow any person to manufacture a commodity which is recognised as dangerous to a very considerable number of people ? If a licence is to be granted in this way it Should be only for scientific purposes.

Mr Richard Foster:

– Then every applicant for a licence would be a scientist.

Mr PALMER:

– I apprehend that in the administration of our laws common sense will be exercised. If a man is ascientist. he should come under and receive the advantages of this clause; tut if he is not, he has no right to enjoy the advantages which it will afford. The Bill will not be perfect unless it is so amended that none, but those desiring to distil spirits for scientific purposes will be allowed to do so under this clause.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I do not think that the passing of this clause is likely to be attended by any of the dire consequences which some honorable members appear to anticipate. Such things have certainly not happened in the past. My officers tell me that no still that would come within the technical departmental definition as being of 1 gallon capacity could possibly produce more than half an egg-cupful of spirits, even if it worked continuously for twenty-four hours. Any still that would produce more than that quantity would not come within the definition laid down in this case. Our officers, who have to interpret this law, naturally do not wish to go further than is necessary, and they are’ perfectly satisfied that the revenue will not be prejudiced in any way by the passing of this particular provision. As to the point raised by the honorable member for Echuca (Mr. Palmer), I would remind him of the statement I made in speaking upon the second reading of the Bill, that I cannot imagine a man . using a still of this capacity to distil his grog, since it would cost him more to do so than he would have to pay for what he wanted at a local hotel.

Mr Richard Foster:

– What if hs were in the bush?

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Then it would pay him to mount his horse and ride into the nearest township.

Mr McWilliams:

– The honorable gentleman does not seem to know much about what happens in the bush.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– 1 know as well as does any man who has travelled in the bush that a good many illicit stills are to be found there. This amending measure, however, will not add to or reduce the number’ of illicit stills now in existence. The departmental officers say that it will do no more than relieve the Department of a great deal of unnecessary trouble and expense, in respect of which they cannot be recouped. There is a good deal of talk about economy in these days, and here we have a small matter in respect of which the Department is trying to economize.

Mr Corser:

– Is there any objection to the registration of these stills?

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I am prepared to consider the question of whether all these stills should not be registered.

Mr BOYD:
Henty

– I take it that it is the desire of the Minister that this power should be ‘granted merely for the distillation of spirits for scientific purposes.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Yes; for experimental work.

Mr BOYD:

– Then I think the honorable gentleman might well . adopt the suggestion that all such stillsshould be registered. Spirits are not likely to be distilled for scientific purposes in the bush.. Having regard to the experience of other countries, it is reasonable to predict that if we do not provide for the registration of stills they will come into use all over the country. In the country in which I had the honour to be born the manufacture of liquor at one time was wholly prohibited by law, with the result that private stills came into general use.

Mr Riley:

– The distillation of spirits became a “ home industry.” “

Mr BOYD:

– Yes, and a poisonous stuff was produced. I am” reminded of a story that MaxO’Rell tells of the state of Scotland at that time. He tells of an old shepherd who, while travelling with his flock, called at a chemist’s shop, since there were no hotels in the neighbourhood, and obtained what was supposed to be whisky for use as a medicine. After his departure, the chemist found that he had supplied him with the wrong liquid. He set in pursuit of the shepherd, but failed to find him. A week later, however, the man turned up again, and asked to be supplied with some more of the same sort of stuff. The chemist put his hands together and thanked God that the man was still alive. “ I am delighted to see you,” he said. “Do you know that the liquid I gave you was aqua fortis?” “ I do not care whether it was . aqua forty, fifty, or a hundred,” said the man ; “ I only know that it has kept my belly warm ever since.” If we are going to allow distillation to go onwithout registration, we may have all over the country stills capable of producing in twenty-four hours half an egg-cupful of a liquid that will poison many that have not the cast-iron constitution of Max. O’Rell’s shepherd. Those who are fond of reading poems of the Australian bush will remember Essex Evans’ Gulf Country Brew, which tells of the lengths to which people with a craving for drink will go in order to satisfy it. Such individuals would not care if they had to work for twenty-four or even forty-eight hours to obtain an egg-cupful of whisky,! - having regard to the strength of the spirit which would in. this way be distilled. Voicing the opinion of a number of. people in my electorate who have been sending to me petitions praying for the curtailment of the liquor traffic, I should be delighted to see this measure curtail in every way possible the manufacture of spirits.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– In order to expedite the passing of the Bill and to allay the fears of honorable members, I shall move - -

That the following words be added to the proposed new section, “ except as to registration.”

The effect of the amendment will be to require the registration of . all the small experimental stills.

Mr RILEY:
South Sydney

.- I hope that the honorable member for Echuca (Mr. Palmer) will not be satisfied with this amendment. It is all very well for the Minister, under the pretence of allowing the distillation of whisky for scientific purposes, to propose to give an added stimulus to an industry to which we are all opposed. The honorable member for Echuca, as a temperance reformer, is true to his principles, andI am pleased he has taken the bold step he has to-night. If the temperance people throughoutthe country were to see to-morrow that the Government, in their efforts to start new industries, was allowing private stills to be established, we should be inundated with petitions ; and there is no doubt that it is our duty to protect the . morals of the people as well as the revenue. If the honorable member presses his suggestion to a division, I shall vote with him. The Go-, vernment at the last election were returned as a reform Government with the aid of the Temperance party, and should have some regard to temperance principles. Drink has proved a great curse in this and other countries; and the honorable member for Echuca, by his effort to-night, has raised himself considerably in my estimation.

Mr PALMER:
Echuca

– I am informed that the amendment - of the Minister effectively covers the whole ground, but I should be still more satisfied if there was a short addition to the effect that none except those who are engaged in scientific investigation shall te permitted to distil spirits. If this was done it would relieve honorable members from condemnation bv people outside.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I am afraid I am unable to accept the suggestion of the honorable member.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- I think the Committee are making a mistake in allowing this provision to remain in theBill. The Minister assures us that a still of the kind contemplated will produce only half an egg-cupful of spirits in twenty-four hours. Of course, the Government have the advantage of expert knowledge; but I can hardly credit that statement to the Minister. At the Bundaberg distillery I have seen stills not quarter the size of the table in this chamber capable of producing a. quarter of a million gallons in the year. I agree with the honorable member for Henty (Mr; Boyd) that once people acquire a taste for spirits they will drink any kind of spirit, and it is known that in the big cities there are people, though I am pleased to think very few, who drink even methylated spirits.

Mr Page:

– They will drink scent.

Mr TUDOR:

– I could understand a person drinking scent, but certainly not methylated spirits.

Mr Page:

– I have seen people drink “ farmer’s friend.”

Mr TUDOR:

– I do not know what that is.

Mr Page:

– It is an embrocation.

Mr TUDOR:

– Of course, there is a certain amount of spirits in every embrocation, I am glad that the Government are going to -keep a check on every still. In -the Grampians electorate there are more distillers of eucalyptus oil than in any other part of Australia, and each distiller has to register his still. The Customs authorities can get a list of every distiller in that district within twenty-four hours. There has lately been an increase in the duty and excise on spirits; and every such increase is an incentive to illicit, distillation. Spirits can be produced from the . potato, or maize, and other gram, a’t any cost from 2s. 6d. per gallon. Under the present law, spirit distilled must be kept two years in order that it may mellow with age; and this, of course, makes it more expensive. If a man were to distil, say, at 4s. or 5s. a gallon, keep the product for two years, and then pay the duty of £1 when it was released from bond, it would by that time be worth, I should say, 30s. a gallon. Under the proposal in the Bill a still, although it can produce only half an egg-cupful in twentyfour hours, could be kept running continuously, and a person could have as many stills as he chose. The Government are quite right to insist upon registration, but I think that otherwise their- proposal is. only an incentive to illicit distillation.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 4 to 13 agreed to.

Clause 14 -

Section 55 of the principal Act is repealed, and the following section inserted in its stead: - “ 55. All operations under this Act and fortifying of -wine shall, for the protection of the revenue, be subject to the right of supervision ‘by an officer.”

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I move -

That the words “ for the protection of the revenue, be subject to the right of supervision by an officer “ be left out, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the words “ unless exempted in writing by the Collector, be carried on in the presence of an officer.”

Some doubt has been raised as to whether the present terras of clause 14- make proper provision for what is required, and, on the advice of the Law authorities the drafting of the clause has been altered to the terms of the further proposed amendment. . The alteration is made in the interests of the manufacturers, and to avoid unnecessa’ry expenditure by them. Section 55 of the- principal Act is mandatory on the Department in requiring that all operations and fortifying of wine shall be carried on in the presence of an officer. In the case of all large distilleries this is, of course, strictly carried out; but in regard to vignerons’ stills, where one Excise officer has to supervise the operations in a whole district,, as, for example, the country within, say, 20 miles of Rutherglen, it is not possible for him to be present during the distillation of the fortifying spirit. The maximum capacity of each still is, however, known, and effective steps are taken, and safeguards imposed, to insure that no illicit spirit is being distilled. The amendment proposed is for the purpose of bringing the law into conformity with the practice, and to provide that, whilst the revenue is safeguarded, a certain amount of elasticity shall be allowable in the matter of administration.

Mr LECKIE:
Indi

Mr FINLAYSON:

– The Minister will have a thankless task in trying to please them. They will be ready to play on his sympathies, and the Bill will give them a splendid opportunity. So long as the honorable gentleman is willing to give concessions to the distillers, they will treat him as a. real good fellow, but people outside will watch him closely. They will want to know the . effect of the alteration of the law, what the Excise officers are doing, and whether the revenue is being protected and the interests of the public safeguarded. I am not sanguine that this or any other law will do any good.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to-.

Clause 15 -

Section 70 ofthe principal Act is repealed.

Section proposed to be repealed -

No person shall -

Sell spirits of a less strengththan twenty-five degrees under proof. . . .

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I move an amendment -

That the words “ is repealed “ be struck out, and the words “ is amended by omitting paragraph 1 thereof” be inserted in lieu thereof.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– The revenue will not be affected.

Mr TUDOR:

– This will enable the sale of spirits at any degree under proof unless the States legislate to the contrary. I read in this morning’s paper that a question was asked in the Victorian Parliament last night as to whether the Government proposed to introduce legislation on this subject, conforming to that introduced in the New South Wales Parliament. The honorable member for Wakefield (Mr. Foster) has stated that South Australia has already legislated in this regard. I think it would be better for this Parliament to legislate, instead of having throughout the Commonwealth possibly six conflicting laws upon the subject.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member’s contention is all right, but we have not the constitutional power to do as he suggests.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 16 to 18 agreed to.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I move -

That the following new clause be inserted : -

Schedule III. to the principal Act is repealed.

Schedule 3 relates to distillation regulations, and is exhausted, these regulations having been superseded by the distillation regulations of 1913. Consequently, there is no need for Schedule 3 to remain in the Act.

Proposed new clauseagreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported with amendments.

Standing Orders suspended; report adopted.

Bill read a third time.

page 8554

SPIRITS BILL

Debate resumed from 23rd October (vide page 7161), on motion by Mr. Jensen -

That this Bill be now read a second time.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- The only amendments, of importance in this Bill are those affecting the definitions of “ methylating substance,” and “pure Australian standard brandy.” I have no objection to the measure.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time.

In Committee :

Clause 1 agreed to.

Clause 2-

Sction 3 of the principal Act [Interpretation] is amended -

by omitting from the definition of “Medicines” the words “liniments and veterinary medicines “ and inserting in their stead the words “ such veterinary medicines and such liniments of the British Pharmacopoeia as may from time to time be prescribed under departmental bylaws.”

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I move -

That the words “ of the British Pharmacopoeia “ be struck out.

The reason for the amendment is that a number of patent medicines, which are well known, and some of which are manufactured in Australia, such as liniments and veterinary medicines, are not included in the British Pharmacopoeia, and we think they ought to come under the definition of “ Medicines “ in the principal Act. Although they are not in the British Pharmacopoeia, they are, at the same time, legitimately on the market, and we think it quite sufficient that the Department should be left to exercise its discretionary power in the matter. Needless to say, we would not grant the concession in respect to any medicine which, in our opinion, was a quack remedy that should not be on the market. There are some medicines and particularly veterinary preparations, on the Australian market which are made in Australia, and which the Department is satisfied are genuine. The retention of these words would exclude such medicines or preparations from this provision, and. would penalize Australian manufacturers.

Mr PAGE:
Maranoa

.- It is rather remarkable that the ink used in the printing of this Bill is scarcely dry before the Minister comes along with an amendment.

Mr Watt:

– That is not unusual, and is often very desirable.

Mr PAGE:

– I think it is quite unusual.

Mr Watt:

– Is this another attack on our primary industries?

Mr PAGE:

– The amendment is in that direction, since it will open the door to the local manufacture of all sorts of quack medicines, which will be Dumped on the men in the bush. The fact that a medicine is made in Australia seems to bequite sufficient to satisfy some people that it will cure any disease. Will this amendment cover the blow-fly remedy?

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- Under this Bill the definition of medicine in the principal Act will be amended. I have at no time said that all patent medicines are harmful. Many patent medicines serve a useful purpose in country districts, but there are others that are only quack remedies. When I held office as Minister for Trade and Customs I did my best to expose the rottenness of the claims made in respect of the curative properties of many patent medicines. The British Medical Association did a service to humanity when it caused to be published the book entitled Secret Remedies, in which the analyses of a number of patent medicines were given, and the absurdity of the claims made in respect of many of them was shown. I believe that the present Minister will do exactly what I did to prevent the introduction of quack remedies into Australia, and I certainly hope that nothing will be done to foster their manufacture here. We have no control over the manufacture of such as medicines in Australia; the power to control their manufacture rests solely with the States. In one case I, as Minister for Trade and Customs, prohibited the importation of a certain medicine, but the proprietor coolly said, “ I can snap my fingers at you; I shall manufacture it in Australia in spite of you.” I hope, that if this amendment be agreed to, the Government will at least “be careful to safeguard - by co-operation with the States or otherwise-the interests of the poorest in the community, who alone are compelled to buy patent medicines.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– None will get an exemption except those which are specially exempt under the departmental by-laws.

Mr TUDOR:

– I urge the Minister to take care that the manufacture of quack remedies is not encouraged in this country. We have actually had potato starch manufactured and offered for sale in Australia as a cure for cancer.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 3 to 7 agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported with an amendment.

Standing Orders suspended; report adopted.

Bill read a third time.

page 8555

ADJOURNMENT

Relations between Prime Minister and Minister for the Navy - Transport “ Barambah “ - Public Holiday in Queensland: Federal Public Servants - Case of Thomas Mooney: Censorship.

Mr WATT:
Acting Prime Minister and Treasurer · Balaclava · NAT

– I move -

That the House do now adjourn.

desire, with the permission of the House, to read a cablegram which I received this evening, and. which was only deciphered after we adjourned for dinner. It is dated London, 25th November, and the time occupied in its transmission is an illustration of the difficulty, to which I recently referred,, of securing the swift passage of cablegrams in these times. It is signed by the Prime Minister (Mr. Hughes) and the Minister for the Navy (Sir Joseph Cook), and deals with a matter to which frequent reference has been made - particularly by the honorable member for Capricornia (Mr. Higgs) - in this House. The message is as follows : -

Re Age article referring relations between Cook and me, of which following summary has been cabled over: -

Political sensation has been caused by publication article from London correspondent Age, dated 1st October, which states that, for first three months, Hughes and Cook never met.

Cook wrote repeatedly to Hughes, but received no reply.

Cook’s later letters indicated that something unpleasant would happen to Hughes when he returned to Australia; but Hughes still preserved a rigid silence.

Hughes did not consult Cook on matter affecting relations between British and Commonwealth Governments.

The correspondent declares deputations to Hughes, particularly weekly deputations from British Empire Producers’ Association, arc stage-managed, so as to enable Hughes to make speeches. fi. Hughes desired to be -placed in charge economic construction of Empire. Lloyd George was prepared offer him a portfolio, but Liberal Coalitionists threatened trouble.

We desire to say, in regard to -

This is absolutely untrue.

This is absolutely untrue.

This is absolutely untrue. Cook never wrote letter to which I did not reply. Cook did not, in any letter or personally, indicate that something unpleasant would happen on my return to Australia. Cook’s relations with me have been uniformly cordial.

This is quite untrue.

This is quite untrue. I have only received one deputation from British Empire Producers’ Association during whole of my stay here, and one from Australian residents re income tax, at latter of which Cook was present.

This is quite untrue, and obviously tissue of falsehoods.

It is deplorable that this mischief-making should develop at a time when unity of aim and purpose are bo much to be desired. The effect of it can only be to weaken Australia’s voice and authority at most crucial moment of all.

Mr. Hughes, who has no knowledge of the rice trade of Burma, and no power’ of any kind to deal with it in any capacity, or to carry out the wishes of the deputation, gravely assured them the policy which they advocated of developing and maintaining a trade which had been built up largely by British capital, and wholly on Empire territory, had his earnest support, and he would be pleased to do anything he could to help them in eliminating those enemy interests which threatened that great industry.

Mr Watt:

– That is clearly a poisoned report.

Mr HIGGS:

– What object could the Melbourne Age have in using apoisoned report ?

Mr Watt:

– The same object as the honorable member has to-night.

Mr HIGGS:

– For several years during the war the Age gave the Prime Minister most loyal support. I take it it is the duty of the proprietors to call upon their correspondent to furnish reasons why he should write in this way. If he. has written a lie I take it he can no longer remain in London as the representative of the paper.

Mr Watt:

– Are you sure of that?

Mr HIGGS:

– If the proprietors of the Age are the men I take them to be, they are called upon by the cablegram received by the Prime Minister to justify their correspondent’s report, and if they are unable to do so, I shall feel called upon to express regret that I have occupied the time of the House in dealing out adverse criticism of the Prime Minister.

Mr WISE:
Assistant Minister for Defence · Gippsland · NAT

– I have received the following statement from the Minister for Defence-, with reference to the transport Barambah: -

Casualties. - With reference to the matters arising out of the last voyage of the transport Barambah with Australian Imperial Force troops on board, I have to confirm with regret the report of several casualties,- clearly, it seems, due to the outbreak of influenza, although it is not yet known how the disease was introduced on the ship. It is gathered, from the voyage reports of the Officer Commanding troops, Lt.-Colonel H. Pope. C.B., Australian Imperial Force, that the precautionary measure of forbidding shore leave had been taken at Capetown. Telegraphic news of seventeen deaths, and eight cases of illness have been received. The names will, in accordance with practice, be released for press publication tomorrow, the next of kin having been advised.

Medical. - The medical provision made before the vessel left Australia consisted of two doctors and a staff of thirty-four, there being, as a matter of fact, an excess of fifteen orderlies, due to there being Army Medical Corps reinforcements on board.

Accommodation. - The question of the shipping accommodation which can be placed at the disposal of the military authorities is one primarily for the Department of the Navy and the British Admiralty; and, so far as the condition in which the Barambah put to sea at Melbourne, and the necessity for inquiry in that regard, is concerned, the matter has been dealt with in statements by the Acting Minister for the Navy (Mr. Poynton). I am, however, advised that, whilst the vessel was fitted up for 1,154 troops, the number actually placed on board by the military authorities was 940.

Inspection. - The vessel was inspected before departure by the responsible military officers, in conjunction with the Naval Transport Staff; the results of the final inspection, as communicated to the Department at the time, being summed up in the words “ Very satisfactory.”

Inspecting Officers. - The inspecting officers were Captain C. E. Brewis, Naval Transport Officer, representing the Department of the Navy; Colonel M. Sturdee, Principal Medical Officer; and the Military Embarkation Staff Officer, Major A. E. Greig.

Deck Space. - Further, the Director of Military Transport and Supplies now reports that he interviewed Colonel Pope before leaving Melbourne, with a view to insuring that adequate deck space was provided for rank and file as well as for the officers. Colonel Pope, it is understood, indicated his intention to allot the bridge-deck to the officers, the welldeck to the Naval ratings and noncomniissioned officers, and the whole of the forward portion of the vessel to the rank and file. The vessel, I am informed, naturally lent itself to this division, which was- considered satisfactory.

State of the Ship. - I received a letter from Mr. George Foley, M.L.A., Chairman of the Western Australian Advisory Committee on Military Hospitals, stating that the troopship was not in a satisfactory state at Fremantle, flushing water for lavatories being obtainable only occasionally, . and showers being dry. Mr. Foley added: - “ The Officer Commanding says that the orderlies are trying well, and have done much to make it cleaner; and if it were any dirtier than it was on my visit, it certainly did not reflect much credit on the authorities who let her start.”

Pumping Machinery. - The explanation given in reply to Mr. Foley was that the trouble is due to a break-down in pumping machinery, which was in order when leaving Melbourne; and that no doubt, when the pumping, machinery was repaired, matters would adjust themselves. The matter is referred to in a voyage report, dated 9th September, at Fremantle, subsequently received, in which Colonel Pope stated that “ Trouble has occurred with the ship’s engines, repairs to which are being effected at this port.” He also remarked: - “ Deck space is limited, and troop-deck, when hammocks are hung at night, is somewhat congested. The best use of what is available is beingmade.”

Health, and Rations. - Continuing, the Officer Commanding said: - “The troops are in good health and spirits, and the ration issue is quite satisfactory, both in quality and quantity.”

Later, from Durban, the Officer Commanding troops reported, on 29th September, that: - “The general health and spirits of the troops has remained excellent. Discipline among the troops has been well maintained, and very little crime has occurred. Rations have continued excellent.”

At the same time, the Senior Medical Officer on board reported: -

The health of the troops has been good on the whole. There have been some cases of mumps. The food has been satisfactory in quality and quantity.”

These are the. facts relevant to the question which have come to my notice, and no reports yet to hand from the Officer Commanding troops bring in question the general suitability of the vessel for the purpose of the transport of troops. At this stage, it seems that the difficulties chiefly encountered arose from theregrettable outbreak of influenza making unexpected demands upon the medical personnel and supplies, as well as upon the ship’s accommodation. Writing from Fremantle. the Senior Medical Officer on board reported, in his usual voyage report, that the hospital accommodation was ample, and that the surgical and medical supplies were found to be in ft good condition. The Durban report does not mention these matters, which, presumably, continued satisfactory.

It may be added that Lt.-Colonel Pope, the Officer Commanding troops, was the President of the Western Australian Branch of the Returned Soldiers and Sailors Imperial League.

Return showing particulars of Deaths. 61030 Pte. Moyle, J., 9th (Vic.) General Service Reinforcements. 17th October, 1918. 61174 Pte. Jenkyn, A. W., 10th (Vic.) General Service Reinforcements. 17th October. 1918. 60964 Pte. Mathrick, C. B., 9th (Vic.) General Service Reinforcements. 17th October, 1918. 61589 Pte. Buggins, F., 12th (Vic.) General Service Reinforcements. 18th October, 1918. 61006 Pte. Tait, L., 9th (Vic.) General Service Reinforcements. 18th October, 1918. 62343 Pte. Rush, A. C, 5th (S.A.) General Service Reinforcements. 18th October, 1918. 61161 Pte. Harvey, S., 10th (Vic.) General Service Reinforcements. 18th October, 1918. 61720 Pte. Scroggie, L. R., 12th (Vic.) General Service Reinforcements. 19th October, 1918. 61000 Pte. Spinks, G. F., 9th (Vic.) General Service Reinforcements. 19th October, 1918. 3126 Pte. Breeden, D. J., Railway Unit. 20th October, 191S. 61216 Pte. Short, W. S., 10th (Vic.) General Service Reinforcements. 20th October, 19.18. 61590 Pte. Campbell, S. C, 12th (Vic.) General Service Reinforcements. No date. 61604 Pte. Dunigan, F. J., 12th (Vic.) General Service Reinforcements. No date. 61735 Pte. Meddings,’ W.E., 12th (Vic.) General Service Reinforcements. No date. 61149 Pte. Gee, J., 10th (Vic.) General Service Reinforcements. No date. 60904 Pte. Currin, J. C, 9th (Vic.) General Service Reinforcements. No date. 62323 Pte. Kabisch, A. B., 5th (S.A.), General Service Reinforcements. No date.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

. -If it were possible to wait until to-morrow I would not have brought this matter forward, but following up a question which I asked the Acting Prime Minister to-day,- I wish to draw particular attention to the following telegram which I have received from Mr. Drew, the president of the Brisbane Postal Electricians -

We draw attention’ to fact Minister Defence has granted Defence Department this State Friday, 29th, holiday. We emphatically protest against differential treatment by Webster.

The Minister assures me that this is a Cabinet matter, and not one that has been decided by the Postmaster-General; but the honorable member for Maranoa (Mr. Page) has informed me that the employees in the . Customs Department and in “the Taxation Department have been granted a holiday . to-morrow.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– There will be no holiday in the Customs Department. Saturday is the holiday.

Mr Webster:

– Saturday is the holiday in the Postal Department also.

Mr Watt:

– If the Taxation Department officials have been granted a holiday it is in defiance of instructions.

Mr TUDOR:

– If there is to be a general holiday throughout Queensland tomorrow it would be better to give the Federal public servants a holiday also and deduct one of the statutory holidays granted at some other portion of the year. I know that it is difficult to arrive at a decision at this late hour, but even yet I hope that something may be done to bring about unanimity with the State in regard to this matter.

Mr FINLAYSON:
Brisbane

– Since 1 have handed to the Acting Prime Minister and the PostmasterGeneral a number of telegrams I have received dealing with this matter, I have received another on behalf of the Commonwealth ‘Clerical Association, which mostly concerns the Postal Department, to the following effect: -

No holiday except for Defence Department. Great consternation view Anting Prime Minister’s definite assurance. Staff has ceased, fully expecting advice morning Prime Minister’s decision prevails.

The Acting Prime Minister’s statement that the provisions of the Act would be observed was quite positive. I invite attention to section 72, sub-section 3, of the Public Service Act, which says -

Where, by or under the law of a State, any day or part of a day is appointed to be or is proclaimed as a public holiday or bank holiday or half-holiday throughout such Statu, or in any part of such State, such day or half-day shall bc observed as a holiday or half-holiday (as thu case may be) in the public offices of the Common wealth throughout such State or in such part of such State (as thu cast’ may hu).

Mr Watt:

– I call attention to the state of the House.

A quorum not being present,

Mr. Speaker adjourned the House at 10.56 p.m.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 28 November 1918, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1918/19181128_reps_7_87/>.

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House of Representatives28 November 1918

QUESTION

CENSORING OFHANSARD RECORD

Mr SPE AKER:

Mr J H CATTS:COOK, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr J H CATTS:

Mr J H CATTS:

Mr J H CATTS:

Mr Kelly:

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr J H CATTS:

Mr Watt:

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr Watt:

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr J H CATTS:

Mr Watt:

Mr J H CATTS:

Mr Watt:

Mr J H CATTS:

Mr McGRATH:BALLAARAT, VICTORIA

QUESTION

SUPPLIES OF COAL

Mr CHARLTON:HUNTER, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr POYNTON:Honorary Minister · GREY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · NAT

PAPERS

QUESTION

FLINDERS NAVAL BASE

Mr TUDOR:YARRA, VICTORIA

Mr GROOM:Minister for Works and Railways · DARLING DOWNS, QUEENSLAND · NAT

QUESTION

SALE OF TIN

Mr GREGORY:DAMPIER, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr WATT:NAT

QUESTION

RETURNED SOLDIERS

Mr McGRATH:

Mr GROOM:NAT

QUESTION

REDUCTION OF FREIGHTS

Mr SAMPSON:WIMMERA, VICTORIA

Mr POYNTON:NAT

QUESTION

POSTMASTER-GENERAL’S DEPARTMENT

Mr FINLAYSON:BRISBANE, QUEENSLAND

Mr WEBSTER:Postmaster-General · MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Mr TUDOR:

Mr WATT:NAT

Mr Tudor:

Mr WATT:

Mr RILEY:SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr WEBSTER:

QUESTION

CONVENIENCES TOR PAYING PENSIONS

Mr STORY:BOOTHBY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr WEBSTER:NAT

QUESTION

WAR TENSIONS

Dr MALONEY:MELBOURNE, VICTORIA

Mr WATT:NAT

Mr Higgs:

Mr WATT:

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr WATT:

QUESTION

REPATRIATION .OF SOLDIERS

Mr BRUCE:FLINDERS, VICTORIA

QUESTION

CAPITAL REGULATIONS-

Mr FENTON:MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA

Mr WATT:NAT

QUESTION

LAND SETTLEMENT OF SOLDIERS-:

Mr RODGERS:WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr GROOM:NAT

QUESTION

SALE OF AUSTRALIAN COPPER:

Mr HIGGS:CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND · ALP; IND 1920; NAT from 1920

Mr WATT:NAT

Mr Higgs:

House of Representatives
28 November 1918

Mr J H CATTS:
COOK, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr McGRATH:
BALLAARAT, VICTORIA

Mr CHARLTON:
HUNTER, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr POYNTON:
Honorary Minister · GREY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · NAT

Mr TUDOR:
YARRA, VICTORIA

Mr GROOM:
Minister for Works and Railways · DARLING DOWNS, QUEENSLAND · NAT

Mr GREGORY:
DAMPIER, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr WATT:
NAT

Mr GROOM:
NAT

Mr SAMPSON:
WIMMERA, VICTORIA

Mr POYNTON:
NAT

Mr FINLAYSON:
BRISBANE, QUEENSLAND

Mr WEBSTER:
Postmaster-General · MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · NAT

Mr WATT:
NAT

Mr RILEY:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr STORY:
BOOTHBY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr WEBSTER:
NAT

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA

Mr WATT:
NAT

Mr BRUCE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA

Mr FENTON:
MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA

Mr WATT:
NAT

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr GROOM:
NAT

Mr HIGGS:
CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND · ALP; IND 1920; NAT from 1920

Mr WATT:
NAT

Mr LISTER:
CORIO, VICTORIA

Mr WATT:
NAT

Mr WATT:
NAT

Mr HECTOR LAMOND:
ILLAWARRA, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr WEBSTER:
NAT

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr WATT:
NAT

Mr BLAKELEY:
DARLING, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr WATT:
NAT

Mr WATT:
NAT

Mr WEBSTER:
NAT

Mr BAYLEY:
OXLEY, QUEENSLAND

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Honorary Minister · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr WATT:
NAT

Mr GROOM:
NAT

Mr WALLACE:
WEST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr WATT:
NAT

Mr WISE:
Honorary Minister · GIPPSLAND, VICTORIA · NAT