House of Representatives
23 May 1916

6th Parliament · 1st Session

  1. House of Representatives
  2. 6th Parliament
  3. 1916

Mr. Speaker took the chair at 10.30 a.m., and read prayers.

page 8350

QUESTION

COCKATOO ISLAND DOCKYARD

Mr CHARLTON:
HUNTER, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Has any action been taken to give effect to the finding of the Committee of Public Accounts in connexion with the Cockatoo Island dockyard?

Mr JENSEN:
Minister for the Navy · BASS, TASMANIA · ALP

– Yes. The recommendations of the Committee are under the consideration of the Navy Board. Wherever the Board can put those findings into operation, as, in their opinion, are practicable and advisable, they intend to do so.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– I hope thehonorable member for Hunter is satisfied with the answer!

page 8350

QUESTION

FEDERAL CAPITAL

Mr PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND

– Is it a fact that the Minister of Home Affairs has taken the whole of the papers relating to the Federal Capital site, and locked them up in his room ? If so, what is the reason ? Does the honorable gentleman intend to keep the papers there?

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
Minister for Home Affairs · DARWIN, TASMANIA · ALP

– This is one of those half-truths that get out and create a sensation.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– Half-truths? Then it is half true?

Mr KING O’MALLEY:

– The honorable member for Maranoa told me it was his intention to ask this question, and I have brought with me the order I issued, as follows: -

I desire that the files in regard to the Fede ral Capital operations now being got together for myinspection be handed over to the exclusive custody of my private secretary. Officers will retain all the copies they require, or which are necessary for the operations which I do not desire suspended.

That order is dated19th May. Ishould like to know who is to take control but the Minister.

page 8350

QUESTION

CAPTAIN C. C. BAILLIEU

Mr HAMPSON:
BENDIGO, VICTORIA · ALP

– Will the Minister for the Navy ask the Minister of Defence whether he will lay on the table of the Library all the papers in connexion with the extraordinarily rapid promotion of Captain C. C. Baillieu?

Mr JENSEN:
ALP

– I shall bring the question under the notice of the Minister of Defence, and I do not think there will be any objection.

page 8350

QUESTION

ENLISTMENT OF BANK OFFICIALS

Mr THOMAS:
BARRIER, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Is the Minister of Trade and Customs aware that the National Bank directors are not paying any portion of the salaries of their employees who have gone to the front, and that they have notified all who have enlisted that they will not be able to regain places in the bank when they return unless they pass a medical examination as to fitness ?

Mr.TUDOR. - I have not heard of such a thing, and I candidly say that I can hardly believe that an Australian institution would take such action. I trust that the honorable member for Barrier has been misinformed.

page 8351

QUESTION

LETTER CARRIERS AWARD

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

– I am informed by members of the union that Mr. Justice Powers, in his award in connexion with the letter-carriers, made provision for men who have passed the sorting test prescribed under the Public Service Regulations, to entitle them to advance to £168. Has that award been given effect to, and, if not, why not?

Mr WEBSTER:
Postmaster-General · MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I should be glad of notice of the question. No one can expect any Minister to be sure of the many details embodied in an award, and to give a responsible answer on the spur of the moment.

page 8351

QUESTION

MENINGITIS

Mr PIGOTT:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES

– What steps are the Government taking to stamp out meningitis which is so prevalent ?

Mr Kelly:

– Will the Minister refer the matter to the Commission presided over by the honorable member for Melbourne Ports?

Mr TUDOR:
Minister for Trade and Customs · YARRA, VICTORIA · ALP

– If I may be allowed, I should like to say that, in my opinion, the Commission or Committee presided over by the honorable member for Melbourne Ports is doing really good work at a very small cost; indeed, I regard it as one of the best Commissions we have in operation. I shall refer the question of the honorable member for Calare to the only health officer we have in the Commonwealth, namely, the Director of Quarantine; but I must point out that we are powerless to take any action in Australia unless the disease comes from outside.

page 8351

BUTTER EXPORT: EMBARGO

Mr SINCLAIR:
MORETON, QUEENSLAND

– Is the Minister of Trade and Customs still determined to prevent the export of butter, seeing that there is a large accumulation.

Mr TUDOR:
ALP

– I went into this matter fairly fully on Saturday afternoon, when I stated that honorable members would see by Monday evening’s papers, or Tuesday morning’s papers, the position in Victoria at any rate. I see by this morning’s newspapers that it is proposed to make a further increase in the price in Victoria, which State practically governs three other States in this connexion, and that the price is14s. per cwt. more than could be obtained if the butter were exported. I have no intention to relaxthe regulation.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Has the Minister ascertained whether there is a market for the butter referred to by the honorable member for Moreton ? It is no use fixing the price of butter if it cannot be sold - that is the point.

Mr TUDOR:

– I have every reason to believe that the whole of the butter in Australia at present can find a market here; and, in view of the threatened shortage, I do not think it would be wise to allow it to be shipped away.

page 8351

QUESTION

TRADE WITH ENGLAND AND AMERICA

Mr FENTON:
MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA

– Is the Treasurer aware that American bankers are making liberal allowances to Australian purchasers of American merchandise, &c., with a view to encouraging trade between the two countries. Further, can the Treasurer inform the House whether British bankers are making similar arrangements in order to encourage trade between Australia and Great Britain?

Mr HIGGS:
Treasurer · CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND · ALP

– I am not aware of any such arrangements. I shall, however, make inquiries, and let the honorable member know.

page 8351

QUESTION

MILITARY PAY OF PUBLIC SERVANTS

Mr JENSEN:
ALP

– On the11th inst., the honorable member for Parkes asked a question with reference to the military pay of public officers who had been allowed to enlist, and were subsequently called back to their posts. The Minister of Defence, to whom the inquiry was referred, now states that this matter was decided at a conference between the Federal and State Governments after the outbreak of the war, when it was determined that only military pay should be drawn in such cases.

page 8352

PAPERS

The following papers were presented : -

Royal Australian Naval College - Report for 1915; together with an abstract report for the year 1914.

Ordered to be printed.

Arbitration - (Public Service) Act -

Award -

Copy of an Award dated 4th May, 1916, which has been made by the Commonwealth Court of Conciliation and Arbitration on a plaint submitted by the Australian Commonwealth Public Service Clerical Association.

Statement of the Laws and Regulations of the Commonwealth with which, in the opinion of the Deputy President of the Court, the Award is not or may not be in accord.

Opinion of the Attorney-General of the Commonwealth.

Memorandum by the Acting Public Service Commissioner in connexion with the Award.

Copy of the “reasons for judgment” of the Deputy President.

Awards Varied -

Copy of Order varying Award, which has been made by the Commonwealth Court of Conciliation and Arbitration.

Statement of the Laws and Regulations of the Commonwealth with which, in the opinion of the Deputy President of the Court, the Order is not or may not be in accord.

Copy of the “ reasons for judgment “ of the Deputy President.

Opinion of the Attorney-General of the Commonwealth on plaint submitted by-

Australian Letter Carriers Association - Order dated 25th October, 1915, varying Award dated 8th April, 1915.

Postal Sorters Union of Australia - Order dated 13th October, 1915, varying Award dated11th June, 1915.

Small Arms Factory Employees Association - Order dated17th May, 1916, varying Award dated19th April, 1915.

Lands Acquisition Act - Land acquired under -at Tighe’s Hill, New South Wales- For Postal purposes.

Naval Defence Act - Regulations amended (Provisional) - Statutory Rules 1916, No. 95.

Post and Telegraph Act - Regulations amended (Provisional) - Statutory Rules 1916, No. 79.

Public Service Act - Regulations amended (Provisional)- Statutory Rules 1916, No. 86.

page 8352

QUESTION

MUNITION FACTORIES

Mr JENSEN:
ALP

– On the11th May the honorable member for Wimmera asked the following question, upon notice -

  1. The number of factories making war munitions in Australia ?
  2. The number of women employees at such factories ?

I am now in a position to furnish the following replies : -

  1. Factories 29.
  2. No women are engaged in the manufacture of shell, but 750 women are employed in the Colonial Ammunition Company’s works in the manufacture of small arm ammunition.

page 8352

QUESTION

WHEAT POOL

Mr SAMPSON:
WIMMERA, VICTORIA

asked the Minister representing thePrime Minister, upon notice -

  1. When the additional 6d. per bushel already promised the wheat-grower from the Government Wheat Pool will be paid?
  2. Whether he can inform the House of the result of the Prime Minister’s negotiations with the Imperial Government and the shipping companies in London for additional shipping space for wheat cargoes from Australia ?
Mr TUDOR:
ALP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

  1. No promise as to the payment of an extra 6d. was authorized by the Australian Wheat Board.
  2. For some time Mr. Hughes has been conferring with the British authorities as to the possibilities of securing additional freight. A reply is expected daily.

page 8352

FEDERAL CAPITAL

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
DarwinMinister of Home Affairs · ALP

– I move -

That the adopted plan for the Federal Capital be referred to the Standing Committee on Public Works for the necessary authority to proceed with the execution of the work from time to time as required by the Government.

My desire is to refer the entire plan of the Federal Capital to the Public Works Committee so that they may deal with it at their leisure. Hitherto the plan has been handed over to them in sections, but I now wish to refer it to them in globo.

Mr Fowler:

– How many years will they occupy in considering it?

Mr KING O’MALLEY:

– It may take a thousand years to build the Capital. The city of Washington has been building for a hundred years, and it has only just been started.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta

– I do not know exactly what is intended by this motion. If it means that the Public Works Committee are to approve of the entire plan of the Federal Capital with the implication that they may reject any portion of the plan-

Mr Richard Foster:

– Surely not.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Then why should the Minister desire to refer it to them for their approval? I take the liberty of saying with the very greatest respect that the Committee are totally unfit to judge of this plan as a plan. I hope that the motion will be withdrawn. The plan was adopted and paid for.

Mr King O’Malley:

– The plan is not to be submitted to them for their adjudication.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I have only the motion of the Minister before me. The honorable gentleman proposes to refer the adopted plan for the Federal Capital to the Committee for the necessary authority to proceed with the execution of the work.

Mr King O’Malley:

– That is the plan which the honorable member’s Government adopted.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I am not speaking of the inquiry into the way in which the works are to be constructed. There is a very clear line of demarcation to be drawn. If brick works at the Federal Capital were in progress, the Committee might very well say whether those works were being erected according to the most modern method. But as to whether those works should go on the plan, I take it that that is a matter for Mr. Griffin to decide. I suggest that the motion should be postponed for a little while. I think that we shall then be able to fix it up all right. I ask leave to continue my speech at a later hour of the day.

Leave granted; debate adjourned.

page 8353

REPRESENTATION BILL

Bill read a first time.

Second Reading

Mr. TUDOR (Yarra- Minister of

Trade and Customs) [10.48]. - In moving

That this Bill be now read a second time.

I wish to say that the Representation Bill which was passed in 1905 made it mandatory that a census, or rather an enumeration, should be conducted every five years. That five years’ period will expire this year. The Government have considered the question, they have consulted the Chief Electoral Officer; they have gone into the latest statistics available; and they feel that, in view of the absence of so many of our men at the war, it would not be wise to proceed with the enumeration this year. We intend to allow things to remain exactly as they are, and, according to the figures which have been submitted to the Cabinet, no State will thereby suffer any injustice. In all the circumstances, the Government think it would be wise to pass this Bill so as to avoid the necessity for making an enumeration this year, as would otherwise be necessary under the Representation Act of 1905.

Mr TUDOR:
ALP

– The ordinary census which is prescribed by the Census Act will take place in 1921.

If weleave this enumeration over it will be possible by legislation to undertake an enumeration at some time between the period marking the termination of the war and the time appointed for taking the ordinary census.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time. in Committee:

Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to

Clause 3 -

Notwithstanding anything contained in section 3 of the Representation Act 1905, the Chief Electoral Officer shall not appoint an Enumeration Day at the expiration of the fifth year after the first census taken after the commencement of that Act.

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
Lang

– I am not quite sure about the wisdom of passing this clause as it stands. It makes provision merely for the abolition of the Enumeration Day, which was decided upon by this Parliament in the principal Act, but it makes no provision whatever for the fixing of an Enumeration Day at any particular time, and it seemsto me that, under the clause, the next Enumeration Day might be fixed at the discretion of the Government.

Mr Tudor:

– They would have to bring the matter before Parliament.

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:

– I am afraid that the whole purpose of the original Act will be not merely suspended but defeated altogether.

Mr Watt:

– Is it not merely proposed to skip one quinquennial period?

Mr Tudor:

– Yes; because of the war, and the unsettled state of the population at the present time.

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:

– Under the clause as it is framed, no Enumeration Day could be fixed until after the next census, and, in the meantime, through variations of the population in the different States, great inequalities of representation might arise, and have to be continued for an unreasonable period.

Mr TUDOR:
Minister of Trade and Customs · Yarra · ALP

.- By section 3 of the Representation Act of 1905, to which this clause refers, it is provided that -

  1. The day on which any census of the people of the Commonwealth is taken shallbe an Enumeration Day within the meaning of this Act.

  2. The Chief Electoral Officer shall appoint other Enumeration Days as follows : -

    1. The first Enumeration Day shall be appointed as soon as practicable after the commencement of this Act;
    2. After the first census taken after the commencement of this Act, an Enumeration Day shall be appointed at the expiration of every fifth year after the then last preceding Enumeration Day.

If that section had been complied with there would have been an Enumeration Day fixed for the 3rd of April of this year. Parliament was not then sitting, and this Bill is necessary to validate the omission to take an enumeration on that day, and to avoid the necessity for taking it this year. The following figures supplied by the Commonwealth Statistician show that no State will lose anything by the passing of this Bill. On the 30th of June, 1915, the population was 4,951,077. The quota would therefore be 68,665, and, dividing the population of each State by the quota, New South Wales would be entitled to 27 l-5th members. Honorable members will be aware that the remainder, when the population of a State is divided by the quota, must be either over or under half the quota to effect an alteration of the representation of a State. There would, therefore, be no alteration in the representation of New South Wales. Victoria, according to her population, would have 20 and over threefourths, but as that State has 21 representatives at present, there would be no alteration there. Queensland would have 10. 4, which is practically exactly the representation the State has to-day. South Australia would have barely61/2. It is quite possible that if there was an enumeration at the present time, that State might have to lose a member. Tasmania and Western Australia are guaranteed by the Constitution their present representation as a minimum. They are entitled to 5 members each, but Western Australia, on population, would have only 4.69, and Tasmania 2.88. This Bill would only postpone the Enumeration Day over the present quinquennial period.

Mr WATT:
Balaclava

.- I think that the object of the Bill, as defined by the Minister of Trade and Customs, is perfectly understandable, and quite laudable. It should not be necessary, and is not advisable, to have an Enumeration Day at this time, when all the circumstances of our life are so thoroughly disorganized and disturbed. What is proposed is really to skip a quinquennial enumeration, but still the suggestion of the honorable member for Lang is worthy of consideration by the Minister, and upon consultation he might do well to propose here, or elsewhere, to add a proviso to this clause giving the GovernorGeneral in Council the power to establish another quinquennial period before the year 1921.

Mr Tudor:

– That would cut across the census which must be taken in 1921.

Mr WATT:

– No; the census to which the Minister refers is obligatory. If between 1916 and 1921 there is a violent fluctuation in population, then, instead of introducing a fresh Bill to deal with it, all the necessary elasticity could be given to the measure if the Governor-General in Council was given power to direct the taking of an enumeration in between the ordinary ones.

Mr FENTON:
Maribyrnong

.- I trust the suggestion of the honorable member for Balaclava will not be adopted. If we are to consider an enumeration period between 1916 and 1921, it is essential that all the latest facts should be before the Committee. The Government will be badly advised to allow any power to pass from this House in that regard to the Chief Electoral Officer.

Mr Sinclair:

– Who is in a better position to judge as to the necessity ?

Mr FENTON:

– An enumeration between now and 1921 might result in some State losing a member, and the figures point at present to South Australia.

Mr W Elliot Johnson:

– Do you not believe in equality of representation ?

Mr FENTON:

– Yes; but the House will be in a better position to judge if a special Bill proclaiming a special Enumeration Day is proposed.

Clause agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment; report adopted.

Bill read a third time.

page 8355

BILLS RETURNED FROM SENATE

The following Bills were returned from the Senate without amendment or request : -

Appropriation Bill 1915-16.

Appropriation (Works and Buildings) Bill 1915-16.

War Loan Bill (No. 3).

War Loan (United Kingdom) Bill (No. 4).

Public Service (Acting Commissioner) Bill.

page 8355

LANDS ACQUISITION BILL

Bill received from the Senate, and read a first time.

page 8355

AUSTRALIAN SOLDIERS’ REPATRIATION FUND BILL

Second Reading

Mr JENSEN:
Minister for the Navy · Bass · ALP

– I move -

That this Bill be now read a second time.

It has been introduced by the Government because of certain action taken by the Parliamentary War Committee with the State War Councils, who have recognised the usefulness of a national Repatriation Fund. The Committee and the Councils have promised the Government to do all they can to make the fund a huge success, so that assistance may be given to returned soldiers when required.

Mr Sampson:

– Is that the £250,000 fund ?

Mr JENSEN:

– No. That is simply the amount contributed by the Government to the fund with the sanction of Parliament. The fund is a national one, to be subscribed by the people, and to be absolutely under the control of trustees, for giving assistance to soldiers and sailors who have served at the war. Six trustees are appointed from the War Committee, and eight business men who have made a success of their life, and who have consented to act free to make the fund a success, are nominated by the Government. It is a matter for regret that the same amount of administration cannot be exercised in regard to other funds that have been raised in Australia in connexion with the war. There is no Statute whereby the proper control of those funds can be compelled. The Government will not interfere with the Repatriation Fund except that an annual audit is required for presentation to Parliament. The trustees will treat every portion of Australia in the way it deserves, and will apportion the fund according to the districts in which soldiers have enlisted. The Go vernment have asked Parliament to provide £250,000, in order to make the fund a huge success and give relief to returned soldiers. We do not say thatthis will be the only money given for the same purpose.

Mr Kelly:

– Will any sums given to this fund be allowed as a set off against the war-profits taxation ?

Mr JENSEN:

– The matter has received the attention of the Government. I do not think that any such proposal will be entertained. Many persons whose health will not permit them to go to the war, and others whose age prevents them from doing so, feel that they would like to make some sacrifice in order to show their sympathy with the soldiers who have gone to fight, and they prefer to show that sympathy in a financial way. Already gentlemen who are too old to go to the front have subscribed as much as £25,000. I refer to the very laudable action of Messrs. Baillieu, but I believe that there are thousands of people who will view this fund from the same point of view. As many people will be prepared to give in kind instead of cash, the trustees will accept gifts in the shape of cattle, sheep, horses, and so on; in fact, anything of any value that will assist returned soldiers, and thus those who are placed on the land will be able to secure a certain number of stock. The trustees will also be empowered to lend or give money to any soldier who is anxious to open a small business. When the measure is passed a general secretary will be appointed, and also a publicity agent - a smart man, who will see that the fund is properly advertised and organized throughout the Commonwealth, but the Government will not interfere in these matters. The whole control of the fund will be in the hands of the trustees, except that the Prime Minister of the Commonwealth will be ex officio their chairman. The Commonwealth Bank has promised that any moneys lying in the bank to the credit of the fund will earn 3 per cent. The trustees will also have power to deposit their funds in private banks. The Bill is a machinery measure, and I trust that it will pass without much comment, but before I sit down I wish to say a word of commendation in regard to the honorable member for Wannon. He deserves the highest praise for what he has done in his own electorate, and that of Corangamite. He has applied himself to his scheme in a laudable way, and hardly a week passes without our reading that large contributions have been made to the fund he is raising. I do not know whether the honorable member will yet see his way clear to place his scheme under the control of the trustees to be appointed under this Bill; that is a matter for the consideration of himself and the other gentlemen associated with him. The scheme contained in the Bill is the same in character as that of the” honorable member, but it is a national one, whilst his relates to only a small portion of Australia. I trust that this national scheme will be of much benefit to returned soldiers in the future.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta

– As the Minister has correctly stated, this is a machinery Bill, and its passage should not occupy many minutes. Every one is in favour of the broad outlines of the proposal, and the Bill embodies the machinery necessary for carrying the scheme through to a successful issue. I hone the result will be to let loose the springs of generous feeling in the community, and that we shall all be stimulated to do our best to make the fund an abiding success.

Mr PIGOTT:
Calare

.- The Minister spoke in commendation of the work done bv the honorable member for Wannon in connexion with the repatriation of our soldiers. We all indorse those remarks. In consideration of the wide experience which the honorable member has had- does not the Minister think that the scheme would benefit greatly bv including the honorable member amongst the trustees of the national fund ? I do not think that a gentleman could be found in the Commonwealth who is better versed in this proposal, or who, by his energy and influence, could do more to make the scheme a success.

Mr. SAMPSON (Wimmera) [11.241- I am glad that the Government have seen fit to introduce a machinery Bill to deal with this great duty which is cast upon the people of Australia. Than the proposal contained in the measure I can hardly conceive of a better foundation on which the whole organization might rest, but I am disappointed that the Government have not assumed a greater responsibility in providing the money necessary to make the scheme a success. The Government have undertaken the whole organization in connexion with the war, including the payment of our soldiers and of pensions to them” and their dependants. Those are national schemes, provided for by Statute, to be paid for out of the Consolidated Revenue and from special taxation, which is designed to fall equally on all sections of the community. I do not say that a great scheme of this kind, which requires so much time and ability, individual assistance, and organization of a voluntary character, can be carried out exclusively on the lines of the War Pensions Bill. But I think that the primary obligation to find money for the scheme should rest upon the Government. The right note has been struck in appointing men of experience to be an independent Board of Trustees, who will be the centre of all the radiating organizations. They will deal with the State Committees, which, in turn, will deal with the local bodies throughout their respective States. I can conceive that good use might be made of the municipal bodies throughout the Commonwealth as the basis of local organization. There are great possibilities in the country districts for this scheme, and in that respect the work of the honorable member for Wannon is an example to the people of the Commonwealth. He has pointed out that probably 100,000 soldiers will require to be dealt with. They will not need to be assisted by direct financial contribution, but means will have to be provided which will enable them to help themselves. The main object of a scheme of this kind will be to train men in the occupations for which they are best fitted, especially those who have been maimed, so that they may earn a living for themselves. We must bring back to health those whose constitutions have been undermined, and ensure to all who have suffered in the war training in some occupation which will provide them with a livelihood. The organization is so vast and complex that it can be properly worked only by bringing the whole of the sociological forces of the community to bear, so that each individual, according .to his temperament and ability, may be trained in the avocation for which he is most adapted. The organization will necessarily include certain forms of technical schools. There are also great possibilities in the fitting up of men. The cablegrams this morning state that in the University of Zurich, Switzerland, experiments are being made at the military hospital to train the muscles of amputated stumps to control the motion of artificial hands. But more particularly might this organization operate in regard to land settlement. In Australia we have only commenced the work of land settlement, and we have sufficient object lessons to show that by a proper co-ordination of the efforts of this Committee, with those of the various States, we can settle a very large proportion of the men on the land if money is made available for that purpose. If only 25 per cent. of the 100,000 returned soldiers show an inclination to go on the land, the matter will primarily rest with the States, who have land enough to absorb all who, after a certain probationary test, show they are fitted for country life. Irrigation has been successful in the northern districts, and there are large areas of Crown lands in the Swan Hill district, towards Mildura, and along the Murray generally - where, I believe, the honorable member for Balaclava is fruit-growing - where the men could be profitably settled. Then there are fruit- g rowing areas in almost all the States. I n Tasmania there are areas that are so far undeveloped, and in Victoria we have auriferous land, not altogether suitable for any other form of cultivation, but on which fruit-growers are now making a good living. It will be seen that there is any amount of scope, so far as the land is concerned ; but if the scheme is to be a success it will be the duty of the Commonwealth to provide the necessary money. An allowance of £500 to each of the soldiers who may be disposed to go on the land will mean £12,000,000 or £13,000,000, which can be found only in the form of loan moneys; but this is an obligation which rests on the National Parliament. A Committee is to be appointed, and the States asked to undertake certain work, but there is no provision made on which the Committee or the States can rest assured that there will be sufficient funds to successfully carry on this colossal work throughout the Commonwealth. I can quite understand that those who believe in the pure voluntary system of enlistment will favour our depending on voluntary contributions, but we ought to know whether the Government have looked into the financial aspect of the case from their point of view. Great work has been done by the honorable member for Wannon in his electorate and in the adjoining district of Corangamite; but we cannot expect a scale so generous to be realized over the whole of the Commonwealth, because there are some districts that are by no means wealthy. We can expect only a few hundred thousand pounds; probably not more than £1,000,000 or £1,500,000; and the money problem will have to engage the attention of the Government either now or when we meet again some weeks hence. The sum set down in the Estimates is altogether inadequate to meet a great national obligation of this character. We have already borrowed £35,000,000 locally, and propose to borrow £50,000,000 more; and the Treasurer told us yesterday that by the end of June, 1917, we shall have a war debt of something like £110,000,000. Although a proportion of this is flowing back, and being circulated, we mustnot forget that the loan moneys are drawn very largely from the accumulated deposits of the community, or, in other words, taken out of the national reserve. The war income tax is supposed to be fairly substantial; yet it is not yielding more than about £3,000,000 this year; and with a view to raising more revenue the Treasurer has very properly introduced a Bill to tax war profits. As yet we have no estimate of the yield from this impost; and though it ought, however, to be a fairly substantial sum, we may find it necessary, before long, to have additional taxation in order to meet the interest on the loans. The heavy taxation consequent upon the war, and the loans, mean the depletion, to a great extent, of the money resources of the people, who, after contributing liberally to the various patriotic funds, may find it difficult to subscribe on any princely scale to a repatriation fund. In any case, the aggregate result of voluntary contributions must be found totally inadequate. Before the measure for repatriation passes, wo ought to have some statement as to what is in contemplation by the Government in the way of raising the necessary money. The foundation of the scheme is land settlement; and I should like to know how far the Government are calling on the States to undertake serious and important work in this connexion, and whether the States will have any guarantee that the money will be available. I have already said that £12,000,000, and more, will be required to settle the reasonable proportion ..of 25 per cent, of returned soldiers who will, doubtless, ‘look to the authorities lo show them how to make a living on the land ; and- if, say, £200 is allowed for each of the remaining 75,000 soldiers, we shall require from £25,000,000 to £30,000,000. Yet the only guarantee given by the Government that the scheme will run no risk of financial failure is the sum of £250,000 set down in the Estimates. This indicates a lack of appreciation on the part of the Government of the real obligation that rests on them. Voluntary contributions should be encouraged, and whatever scheme is adopted should have the hearty co-operation of every member of the House, and of every patriotic member of the community. It is the duty of the Government to lead the way, giving an assurance to the returned soldiers that their interests will be conserved, and that the scheme- on which I congratulate the Committee - will be a success. There is a danger of depending entirely on voluntary contributions. The result of such a method is that the generous members of the community do. their share, while mean people escape their responsibility, the former performing a duty that- should fall on the community as a whole. I hope that the Government will look into the financial side of this scheme, and realize more seriously their responsibilities under it.

Mr Higgs:

– Touching the £20,000,000 or £40,000,000 to which the honorable member has referred, how does he suggest that that money should be expended?

Mr SAMPSON:

– We have already passed a Bill authorizing the Government to borrow £25,000,000 from the Imperial Government. I see no reason why the unexpended portion of that loan should not be car-marked and made available to the State Governments for the settlement of returned soldiers on the land.

Mr Higgs:

– What does the honorable member mean by “ settled “ ? Does he mean that estates should be purchased?

Mr SAMPSON:

– No. This scheme of land settlement is not an Australian scheme only; it is Imperial. It will probably -have to be worked later on in co-ordination with the Imperial Government, on the lines laid down by Sir Rider Haggard during his visit to this country. The State Governments have promised him that British soldiers will receive the most sympathetic treatment. The State Governments, iu co-operation with the Imperial authorities, can well manage the land settlement portion of this scheme. But the obligation of finding the money requisite to put the scheme into operation will rest on the Commonwealth. Instead of borrowing money from the Imperial authorities dur ing this war, we ought to be able to finance this matter for ourselves. Any money that may bo borrowed from the Imperial Government should be made available to the States for the settlement of soldiers on the land from time to time. I do not for a moment suggest any big scheme for the purchase of landed estates. I do not think we have utilized our Grown lands to the best advantage, because we have not made water available for irrigation purposes. We all know that the biggest production per acre and the most successful settlements to-day: are to - be found in our irrigation areas. Plenty of land is available m all the States. If the necessary money were forthcoming, it. would be quite possible to settle upon the Crown lands of Victoria all the returned soldiers who will desire to go upon them from this State. Any money that may be advanced to the settlers should tie advanced for the purpose of assisting them to make homes - for. themselves and to render their holdings profitable. I commend these few observations to the serious consideration of the Government. While I believe that> a great work will have to be done outside of land settlement, I can see a big opportunity, in connexion with this scheme,, to make use of all our various interests in order that we may not only provide employment for our returned soldiers, but provide it in the country districts. 1 know that the honorable member for Wannon can speak of enterprising landowners, who, though they are unable’ to supply large amounts in cash, are in -a position to offer soldiers very favorable opportunities for settling on the land; Only yesterday Mr. Agar Wynne spoke, to me about an oiler which .he wprepared to make. He said that heis willing to allow four soldiers to cultivate 100 acres each. All 0”*.’ they would require at the outset would bp a few implements and a house in which they could live together until’ they were in a position to strike out for themselves

The scheme devised by the honorable member for Wannon is a most instructive object-lesson to this House, and should furnish valuable information to the executive body which will be appointed under this Bill.

Mr Pigott:

– He ought to be appointed one of the trustees.

Mr SAMPSON:

– That would be a very good idea.

Dr Carty Salmon:

– Does the honorable member think that his scheme is bet ter than the Government scheme?

Mr SAMPSON:

– As soon as the Committee receives statutory authority under this Bill, and trustees are appointed, I think that every endeavour should be made by negotiations with the honorable member for Wannon to co-ordinate as far as possible all these schemes, and to place them under one central- authority.

Dr Carty Salmon:

– Does the honorable member think that the scheme devised by the honorable member for Wannon should be subordinated to this scheme 1

Mr SAMPSON:

– I am not going to pit one scheme against the other.

Dr Carty Salmon:

– Does not the honorable member sec the difference that exists between them?

Mr SAMPSON:

– The only way that difference can be reconciled is by negotiation. These trustees will be appointed to control a scheme operating over the whole of Australia, and one of their first duties will be to reconcile the differences which exist between all the schemes which are in operation and which have the same object in view. The central body in each of the States is not likely to make a success of the scheme unless it provides in ils organization local opportunities for returned soldiers to settle upon the land.

Mr CARR:
Macquarie

.- Whilst one may admire the provisions of the Bill for the disbursement of this fund, it seems to me that there is a legal defect in the measure in so far as it contains no clauses providing for the receipt of contributions and maintenance of the fund, the existence of which, so far as the Bill is concerned, is merely presumptive.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– This Bill will be administered practically by regulation.

Mr CARR:

– I am reminded by the honorable member’s interjection that, whilst in the list of trustees of the fund we find a number of estimable gentlemen, I do not think that there are many bustlers amongst them. They are all, no doubt, men of stability, and would be decided acquisitions for the administration of such a measure; but I think that the honorable member for Maranoa is about the only man of very vigorous type amongst them, and possibly, in consequence, the bulk of the work will fall upon his shoulders. I should like to see the name of the honorable .member for Wannon added to the list of trustees. We are told that Mr. Baillieu contributed £25,000 to the fund, and consequently should have been, and has been, included in the list of trustees. We are told that the honorable member for Wannon has succeeded in establishing a fund, for which he has received the sum of £60,000, for the same .purpose, and I suggest to the Minister in charge of the Bill that the most effective way to secure the fund established by the honorable member would be to place him on the list of trustees. I am not in any way authorized to make this suggestion by the honorable member for Wannon. I do. not even know his views on the subject; but, as a matter of policy, I should not hesitate to give a gentleman like him a seat on the board of trustees. I scarcely like the idea of permitting two members of the executive committee to form a quorum. There is a decided tendency in the working of committees of this kind for the executive to resolve itself into the least number possible. Under .the Bill the number in this case would be two. While they would be enthusiastic men, and would do their best to bear all the burden, they could not supplement the loss sustained by the fact that other members of the executive committee would refrain from taking an active part in the work. I think that the quorum of the executive committee should be increased at least to three, and the Minister would do well to seriously consider the advisability of adding to the number of trustees the honorable member for Wannon.

Dr CARTY SALMON:
Grampians

.- I should like to say, with regard to the scheme proposed under this Bill, that where it adheres to that formulated by the honorable member for Wannon it is on safe grounds, and where it departs from that scheme it follows a course which we have traversed before in different parts of Australia, and which I hoped would be avoided in dealing with this matter. It seems to me that the vital difference between the two schemes is that that formulated by the honorable member for Wannon is a local scheme, with local control and supervision, whilst the other, called a national scheme, will mean the establishment of a central authority at tremendous expense, and involving a waste of effort. I am disappointed at the result of the deliberations of the War Committee on this question, which, I suppose, was the only question of any magnitude that that Committee bad to consider since it was appointed. They had an opportunity to propose a scheme that would do what the whole of the people of Australia desiredshould be done, that is, to provide means whereby the men who have gone abroad to fight for the integrity of Australia should, on their return, be absorbed in the general community as producers. On reading the provisions of the two schemes, I have been astonished at the lack of candour and of appreciation shown by the War Committee. One is struck with the great similarity, not only in sentences, but in whole paragraphs, between the War Committee’s scheme and that formulated by the honorable member for Wannon. It seems to me that what the War Committee did was to take a scheme which had already been put into operation by the honorable member for Wannon and graft upon it the most objectionable feature of centralization, involving loss of efficiency and waste of money. I have not a single word to say in regard to the personnel of the proposed trustees. The Government appear to have done what any other Government would have done in their place. They looked around amongst the public men of Australia, and endeavoured to secure from each State a representative body. I do not know that they have been extremely happy in the selections they have made, considering the work which the committee controlling the fund will have to do. The fact that the trustees will appoint an executive may diminish the dangers.I have suggested. I feel, with honorable members who have already spoken, that the honorable member for Wannon, who has attracted public attention by theformulation of a scheme which is now in working operation, and is capable of extension, was entitled to greater considera tion than he received from either the Government or the War Committee.I do not know to what extent he was consulted, but I do know that his scheme was utilized because of the evidence that portions of it have been incorporated in the scheme proposed by the War Committee. I express my very great disappointment that thiswork of showing our appreciation of the sacrifices which have been made by those who haveleft Australia to defend it is being placed in the hands of a board or commission, and the Government of the day allowed to escape what I believe to be their just responsibility. I fear that the men who have done, and are doing, so much for Australia may have held out to them as an inducement to continue their sacrifices a very illusory benefit. The cost of administration under the proposal of the Government would outweigh altogether the advantages that otherwise would be gained. Even at this late stage we ought to reconsider the whole matter, with a view to having local instead of central control, thus spreading over the whole continent the responsibility, not only of providing the means for carrying out this great work, but for the proper administration of the funds which will be collected. That is where I feel the whole scheme is going to break down. In the future, when theprivate contributions to the fund are not sufficient, the House will be asked to vote large sums in order that the work may be carried on. We. ought at this juncture to assure those who have the means that if they will only contribute to this great purpose the maximum of benefit will be secured for those whom we desire to help. If we can. do that we need have no fear of the result, but this Bill will do the very opposite. It will give persons who desire to escape their responsibilities a further opportunity of doing so. I am astonished that those who have been so strongly urging what they call the conscription of wealth should so rapidly have changed their views, and be so inconsistent as to support the voluntary system. They are making a great mistake, and will find themselves called on at no distant date, when the demands which will be inevitably made on us become more apparent, to support the conscription of wealth, which they have so far advocated, but which they seem disposed at present to repudiate. I have been with the honorable member for Wannon when he .has advanced his proposals, and have Been how they have been received. The very heart of his method has been taken out of it by the Government, who have substituted officialdom and bureaucracy for that personal appeal and personal administration which undoubtedly forms the vital portion of the honorable member for Wannon’s scheme. Those who have promised him support are saying that if ne decides to throw in his lot with the Government scheme they will withdraw. They have been prepared to provide the land and the money on the distinct understanding that there is to be local control. I trust that when the men return we shall endeavour to place them back in the districts from which they “were drawn, and not congregate them in centres of population, where they may become a constant charge on the community. This scheme has been evolved by one man, to whom the Bouse and the Country are very much indebted, and to whom the War Committee are admittedly very much indebted also, because they have shown a left-handed appreciation of bis work by adopting the better portion of the scheme, which they should have adopted entirely. If later on it was found that the local obligations were not properly met,, it would be easy for this or any future Government to revert to the proposals now being made; but I can assure the’ Government that if people in the country districts, from which the greater part of the help will be obtainable, see that this is to be a Government measure, to be . administered from the great centres of population, they will lose interest, in it, and there will be a diminution in .the contributions which, we have a right to expect. Those contributions will be ours if the Government can only give the probable donors a guarantee that there will not be wasteful expenditure, or divided and dissipated effort. What we want is emulation between different districts, and local control, enabling the men to be placed under the best conditions, where they can make themselves independent, valuable assets to the community, and continuous producers.

Mr WISE:
Gippsland

.- -The success of the measure seems to depend on two things - -the finding and distribution of the money. ‘ The Bill deals with the fund and its distribution, but does not say how it is to be raised, and I quite agree that Parliament ought to foot the bill straight out from beginning to end. The result with voluntary giving will be just the same as with voluntary enlistment. The willing person will give, and the mean man refrain. I have seen many instances of this, and it is a pity we do not recognise the’ fact straight out. We shall have to do it sooner or later, for it is our duty to see that the money is raised. If we raise it by taxation everybody gives according to his wealth. I was surprised that the Minister for the Navy was not ready to say, in connexion with a voluntary scheme like this, that every gift to the scheme would be exempt from taxation.

Mr Jensen:

– Any money gift is exempt, but not gifts of cattle, horses, or land. It is hard to follow the value of gifts in kind.

Mr WISE:

– Not at all; they are followed very quickly when a settlement for probate is med. In this case the value can be followed out on all gifts of property, personal or real. The whole system, however, as proposed by the Government is wrong. The responsibility lies on the whole people, and they should foot the bill according to their own individual share. There must necessarily be a central body. But the Bill proposes that the central body should dispose of its funds to various State central bodies and then under the power given in clause 9 to the Governor-General “ to make regulations for carrying out or giving effect’ to any other, matter arising under the Act,” it is quite possible that local bodies under the control of the State War Councils may be provided’ for the final distribution of the money. It appears to me that we must make one alteration in regard to our power of control. The body which the Bill appoints and’ for which we are responsible is authorized to hand over the money for distribution by the State War Councils. Now a State War Council is defined as meaning, “ in regard to each State, the body appointed or recognised by the Governor in Council of that State as the State War Council.” The Commonwealth will have no’ power of control over the appointment of the bodies which will be responsible for the distribution of the funds either directly or through local’ committees.

Mr Jensen:

– It is anticipated that the State Governments will combine with the Commonwealth Government in making certain grants.

Mr WISE:

– That may be the case, but when we reach clause 2 I shall move an amendment for the purpose of adding to the definition of State War Council the words ‘* and approved by the GovernorGeneral.” In that way the Commonwealth Parliament, through the Government of the day, will have some control in regard to the appointment of these War Councils.

Dr Carty Salmon:

– We do not see the name of any country representative on the list of trustees.

Mr WISE:

– The trustees represent the various States. It would be impossible to select men to represent country districts in each State and add them to the list of trustees in the Bill. It would be too unwieldy a. body. As it is men have been selected irrespective of party. They are men in whom all can have confidence, and I think that we can look to them to do justice to the matter entrusted to them. We have power over the regulations, and if the amendment which I suggest is adopted we shall have some control over the bodies which will be immediately responsible for the actual distribution of the money. It was a mistake to invite private donations.

Mr Sampson:

– Would the honorable member exclude them?

Mr WISE:

– I would exclude no one generous enough to give, but at the same time the proper way in which to regard the question is to consider it as one for which the country as a whole is responsible, and for which the necessary money should be raised by taxation.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second’ time.

In Committee :

Clause 1 agreed to.

Clause 2 -

  1. In this Act, unless the contrary intention appears - “ The State War Council “ means, in regard’ to each State, the body appointed or recognised by the Governor in Council of that State as the State War Council…..

Amendment (by Mr. Wise) proposed -

That the words “ and approved of by the GovernorGeneral “ be added to the definition of “The State War Council.”

Mr KELLY:
Wentworth

.- Unless the amendment is accepted the

Bill will stultify itself. How can we have - responsibility for the fund if we vest the actual expenditure of the money in local bodies over which we have nocontrol ? If we do not accept the amendment we can have no real control over the fund. The amendment does not seek to hamper the State War Councils in their formation. It simply asks for the right to indorse the constitution of the. various State bodies.

Mr WEST:
East Sydney

– I agree with the honorable member for Wentworth that this amendment should be accepted. As the Bill stands the State bodies will have all the power; in fact, all applications for assistance will come before them and not before the central trustees.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

.- I. oppose the amendment. Does the Commonwealth Parliament think that it has the right, to control the work of repatriation because of a grant of £250,000, while the whole burden’ of administration is left to the States?

Mr Kelly:

– The States have contributed nothing so far.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– If the State War Council is to control the distribution of the funds, to be responsible for organizing and devolutionizing the whole of the arrangements and passing down control from the principal to local committees, how can it allow the Commonwealth Government to dictate as to their composition. As a matter of fact, how can the Commonwealth Government judge as to the membership of these State bodies 1 The scheme was first established to be run by the Federal War Committee in conjunction with the State War Councils, which were created for the very purpose. Now, because the Commonwealth has granted £250,000, it is proposed to ask the States to make a success of the scheme, and yet allow the Commonwealth to step in at any time and say who shall be members of a State Council and who shall remain off that body. Can the honorable member for Gippsland indicate in what respect there is danger or difficulty in making the State supreme within its own territory ? The State controls the land; there- will be gifts of service and gifts of State lands; the State will dominate the whole position ; yet the Commonwealth wishes to determine who in the State is the best authority in whom to vest the control.

Mr Kelly:

– Does the honorable member agree with the contention that the Commonwealth should be responsible for the money ?

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– Being associated with another scheme, I find myself necessarily subject tocertain limitations in discussing this proposal. There are phases of it which I do not like. The feature of the other scheme with which I am associated is the possibility of having local, quick, direct, and sympathetic administration. If the State War Committee are to go cap in hand to the Federal Board every time they desire to make a change in the management, there will be trouble and confusion. The appeal, in the first instance, was made by the Minister of Defence in cold language in the press. It was responded to by the one family very generously, but in Victoria there has been little further response. Do honorable members mean to say that if the State War Council had. had control of the first appeal they would not have proceeded in a different . manner ? After canvassing the financial institutions and big industrial and commercial firms, and explaining to them the scheme, they might have held a great inaugural demonstration in the Town Hall, and probably the scheme would have received a flying start with contributions amounting to £600,000. Now the State War Committee are committed to the initial failure caused through their not having been consulted in connexion with the first appeal. This Committee will make a great mistake if, while placing on the States the responsibility for working the scheme, they desire to keep the control in the hands of the Commonwealth Parliament.

Mr Jensen:

– I think the amendment moved by the honorable member for Gippsland is necessary, and I propose to accept it.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 3 (Vesting of funds).

Mr FENTON:
Maribyrnong

– Mr. Ashfield, the Minister of Lands in New South Wales, Stated at Wentworth a few days ago that it was the intention of his Government to provide £500 for every returned soldier.

Mr Sampson:

– That is for land settlement. Such a proposal has been made in different parts of Australia.

Mr FENTON:

– If we are to have a scheme that is under the general supervi sion of the Commonwealth, and independently of that, the State Government launch out on schemes of their own, there will be confusion. Presumably the scheme mentioned by Mr. Ashfield emanates from the State Government, and not from the State War Committee. Some central authority ought to be able to step in and arrange an amalgamation of all the schemes. Unless we have some such central authority, the whole endeavour will result in chaos.

Mr Sampson:

– We must have a strong central authority, but that authority may be delegated to the States.

Mr FENTON:

– The honorable member seems to argue that, although the States should be called upon to carry out the scheme, the Federal Parliament should provide the funds.

Mr Sampson:

– Hear, hear ! That is the responsibility of the whole people.

Mr FENTON:

– I agree. So far as money raising is concerned, except in regard to voluntary contributions, this Parliament is responsible. That being so, we must have some kind of control over the State Committee. The’ proposal of the honorable member for Wimmera is that the States should form Committees and be allowed to administer the scheme with money provided by the Commonwealth. But I think he should ask for some right to exercise a general oversight of the Committee in order to know how the money is being expended.

Mr Sampson:

– I admit that there must be some supervision.

Mr FENTON:

– I agree with the laudatory remarks that have been made concerning the efforts of the honorable member for Wannon. They are worthy of the emulation of all of us, and the success with which they met is in itself a sufficient commendation of them. In the same way, any scheme launched by the New South Wales Government would help, but. I am afraid that if all these schemes are to be carried on separately there will be chaos. All the funds must be drawn in together before the money can be sent out. I notice that the Premier of Victoria objects to the scheme outlined by the Premier of New South Wales to give £1 per week to every returned soldier.

Mr Jensen:

– Can you prohibit the State Governments doing that?

Mr FENTON:

– No; but if we are to have duplication of efforts, and the New

South Wales Government intend to proceed with their scheme, the Federal proposal will fail.

Mr Jensen:

– All the State Governments have consented to fall in with the proposal contained in this Bill.

Mr FENTON:

– That is all I desire to know. But Mr. Ashfield is reported to have said that the New South Wales Government intended to provide every man with £500.

Mr Sampson:

– That is for men going on the land, but it does not reduce the responsibility of the Commonwealth to find money for the States.

Mr FENTON:

– I do not say it does, but it would be much better to have the scheme combined, and all the local bodies subject to a central committee, in order to secure uniformity in administration. If there are separate organizations confusion must follow, but otherwise this repatriation scheme ought to prove a success.

Mr KELLY:
Wentworth

.- Where is one consideration, in view of the remarks of the honorable member for Maribyrnong, which might weigh with the Minister during the coming recess. There may be an intention on the part of some of the States to supplement the Commonwealth responsibility towards returned soldiers. Suppose, for argument’s sake, that one State gave a very handsome weekly pension to any returned soldiers, there would instantly be a tendency to migration in the direction of that particular State, with resultant dislocation of the industries and energies of the States from which they come.Really this isnot purely a State matter. If, for instance, such a magnet were created in New South Wales, and soldiers from the front insisted on living in that State, the employment of Australia would be disorganized ; and from that point of view I suggest, in a preliminary way, that the matter is worth the close attention of Ministers.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 4 and 5 agreed to.

Clause 6-

  1. The trustees shall be charged with the duties of-

    1. investing in securities of the Commonwealth or a State, or on fixed deposit in any bank incorporated or carrying on business in the Commonwealth or in current account in the Commonwealth Bank, such part of the fundas is not immediately required for the purposes for which the fund has been established; and
Mr PAGE:
Maranoa

.- I move-

That after the word “deposit,” lines 4-5, the words “ or in current account “ be inserted.

Mr Kelly:

– Is money invested on current account?

Mr PAGE:

– Yes, when 8 per cent. can be obtained on it. If this amendment be accepted, I shall move later to omit the words “or in current account in the Commonwealth Bank.” This will give the other banksa chance to pay the 3 per cent. on current account that they have already expressed willingness to pay. Instead of having the whole of the money in current account and fixed deposit in the Commonwealth Bank, I desire the banks in the States, and their branches, to have the handling of the money. This would, I think, especially in the case of the branch banks in the out-back portions of the States, create an interest in the scheme. On the other hand, if all is centred in the Commonwealth Bank, we shall not get much help from the outside branches of the ordinary banks.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment (by Mr. Page) agreed to-

That the words “or in current account in the Commonwealth Bank”be left out.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

.- Will the Minister make provision in the Bill for the remission of all State duties on property conveyed to the trustees under this or any other repatriation scheme? The State War Councils are the deputies for carrying out the scheme; and Iask the Minister to confer with the States with a view to the remission of all duties, not only on transferred property, but on all gifts. It would be strange to have such gifts and transfers subject to duty by the States. Take the case of the honorable member for Corangamite. The duty payable upon his munificent gift would have amounted to many thousands. The New South Wales Government, however; have agreed to remit that duty.In Victoria, too, substantial gifts ofland have been made, and if the duty were charged upon them it would amountto a very material reduction. I wouldlike an assurance from the Minister forthe Navy that he will confer with the State

Governments with a view to seeing that all the money contributed to this fund Teaches the soldiers.

Mr JENSEN:
Minister for the Navy · Bass · ALP

– Isee no objection to the Government communicating with the State Governments in an endeavour to give effect to the honorable gentleman’s request. But, of course, the matter is one for conference between the Commonwealth and the State authorities. I shall not lose sight of it.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 7 -

The sums or property from time to time Allocated by the trustees to a State War Council shall be held by the State War Council upon the trusts following, namely: -

To apply such sums or property (subject to such conditions as the Governor-General, on the recommendation of the trustees, from time to time prescribes, and after payment of all proper expenses of and incidental to the receipt and expenditure by the Council of the sums or property allocated to it) for such purposes, being purposes for the relief assistance and benefit of Australian soldiers and of their dependants, and in such manner, as the Council in its discretion thinks fit.

Mr JENSEN:
Minister for the Navy · Bass · ALP

.- I move-

That the word “relief,” line 12, be left out.

This fund is not raised with any charitable object in view, and as the word “ relief ‘ ‘ suggests charity, I am anxious that it should be omitted.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 8 -

  1. The report of each audit shall be made to the Prime Minister, who shall cause a copy of the report to be laid on the table of each House of the Parliament. .
Mr JENSEN:
Minister for the Navy · Bass · ALP

– I move -

That the words “ Prime Minister “ in subclause 2 be left out with a view to insert in lieu thereof the words “ Commonwealth Treasurer.”.

Under the Audit Act the Auditor has to make all his reports to the Treasurer. The amendment, therefore, will bring this provision into conformity with the Audit Act.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 9 -

The Governor-General may, on the recommendation of the trustees, make regulations prescribing the conditions under which a State War Council may expend any sum or dispose of any property allocated to it by the trustees, and may make regulations for carrying out or giving effect to any other matter arising under this Act.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

.- This Bill will be mainly administered by regulations. I am satisfied that the scheme for which it provides can be made a success only if there is removed from the minds of the people the feeling that if they contribute voluntarily to it to-day they will also be compelled to contribute to it later on. Public opinion is confused as to whether the whole of the repatriation funds are to be subscribed voluntarily, or whether they are to be obtained by means of taxation. My view is that they should be raised in both ways. A certain amount should be collected by means of taxation, and the balance should be made up of voluntary contributions. Just as in the earlydays of this country there were selectors’ rights, so our soldiers upon returning from the war will have earned new citizen rights. The private wealth of this country is estimated at £1,000,000,000, and there is a growing disposition on the part of the owners of that wealth to recognise what our soldiers have done by opening up to them on their return more profitable avenues of employment. But this growing public spirit will surely be killed in the absence of a declaration bythe Government that voluntary gifts will be exempt from taxation. Upon the whole, the public spirit w hich has been exhibited in this matter is good, but there are many individuals who are withholding contributions simply because they do not know whether taxation will be subsequently levied upon them. The Government should at once declare that every gift to the fund shall be exempt from taxation.

Mr PAGE:
Maranoa

.- I am very pleased that the honorable member for Wannon has brought this matter under the notice of the Committee.I may tell him that it was discussed at some length by the trustees of the fund when this Bill was under consideration by them. The Acting Prime Minister then promised that if any legislation were brought forward during the life of the present Government with the object of imposing special taxation for the purposes of the Repatriation Fund, the voluntary subscribers to the fund would be protected up to the amount which they had contributed.

Mr KELLY:
Wentworth

.- I do not think that the honorable member for Maranoa has quite stated the position. It has to be remembered that there is a War-time Profits Bill to be introduced which is likely to affect the measure now under consideration more than any other, because people do not know what they may have to pay under that Bill. It will help the fund enormously if the Minister can make some statement with regard to the War-time Profits Bill. That Bill will deal not with war profits but with war-time profits, and some of the biggest profits made will be deliberately excluded from the operation of the Bill. I realize the Minister’s difficulty in giving any undertaking with respect to gifts in kind, but I think he should make some effort to surmount it. Gifts in kind do not differ in principle from other gifts, and no gifts but cash have a fixed value as at the date of gift. If we take the case of a man who gives £10,000 worth of scrip, it will have a certain face value, and if sold in small parcels may realize that value, but if an attempt be made to realize the value in one lot, it will be depreciated by the law of the market. I think the Minister should be able to say without any reservation at all that, so far as gifts in cash are concerned, there will be an exemption made from the operation of the War-time Profits Tax, and he should be prepared to announce that hewill take into sympathetic consideration the possibility of making provision for an exemption in the case of gifts in kind, &c.

Mr Jensen:

– Money gifts are free from income tax assessments, and the Government will consider the request for an exemption in the case of gifts in kind later on.

Mr KELLY:

– The soonerthe Minister makes any announcement he has to make the better it will be for the Repatriation Fund.

Mr ARCHIBALD:
Adelaide

– The Government, in my opinion, should be very careful in dealing with this matter, as they may require to make proposals for further income taxation. If what some honorable members have proposed were agreed to, the practical result would be that a premium would be offered to a man to make a gift to the fund to avoid income tax.

Mr Richard Foster:

– There would be nothing to be gained by that..

Mr Page:

– Does the honorable member think that he should tax a man for giving him money!

Mr ARCHIBALD:

– If a man has a surplus of income after payment of income tax and other liabilities, he may throw it away, or waste it. A man with a very small margin after hehas met his liabilities, including income tax, may feel acutely his inability to contribute to the fund, whilst another man with a large surplus of income may make a generous contribution to the fund, and so escape the payment of income tax whichhe would otherwise have to meet.

Mr CORSER:
Wide Bay

.- There is a great deal more in this matter than some honorable members appear to recognise. A very large number of people may feel that they can afford to contribute a sum of money to this fund, but they are uncertain as to what their taxation will be, and they will wait to ascertain that before contributing to the fund. We may, in consequence of this uncertainty, lose many contributions which would otherwise be made to the fund. The honorable member for Hindmarsh has said that by contributing to the fund a man would be able to evade income tax, but the honorable member overlooks the fact that he must pay the tax upon what his income is shown tobe.

Mr PIGOTT:
Calare

.- I am unable to see the reason for the discrimination made by the Minister between contributions in cash and in kind. If I desire to give a returned soldier 150 sheep to assist him to stock up a property, every one in the district will know the value of those sheep, but the Minister proposes that the sheep should be sold, and the amount realized handed over to the trustees of the fund. The result would only be that the trustees would have to reinvest the amount in the purchase of the sheep again.

Clause agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported with amendments.

Standing Orders suspended, and Bill passed through its remaining stages.

page 8366

WAR PENSIONS BILL (No. 3)

Mr. SPEAKER reported the receipt of a Message from the Governor- General recommending a further appropriation for the purposes of this Bill.

Ordered -

That the message be taken into consideration in Committee forthwith.

In Committee (Consideration of GovernorGeneral’s message) :

Motion (by Mr. Higgs) agreed to -

That it is expedient that a further appropriation of revenue be made for the purposes of a Bill for an Act to amend the War Pensions Act

1914-1915.

Resolution reported and adopted.

Mr HIGGS:
Treasurer · Capricornia · ALP

.- I move -

That the Bill be now recommitted to a Committee of the whole House for the consideration of a proposed amendment in clause 4.

The object of this recommittal is to make the alterations rendered necessary as the result of the amendment made in the Bill last night, having reference to parents who are in need five years after application is made. It is desired only to make a consequential amendment.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

In Committee (Recommittal) :

Clause 4 -

Section 3 of the principal Act is amended .

Section proposed to be amended - (Pensions upon death or incapacity in consequence of warlike operations).

Amendment (by Mr. Higgs) agreed to -

That after the word. “ amended “ the following paragraph be inserted : - “ (aa) by omitting from sub-paragraphi of paragraph a of the proviso the words ‘ or, by parents who though not dependent upon the earnings of the member at the time of his death are at any time within five years after such death, without adequate means of support, within five years after such death;’ and inserting in their stead the words ‘ except in the case of parents who though not dependent upon the earnings of the member at the time of his death are at any time without adequate means of support;’ and.”

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Bill reported with a further amendment.

Standing Orders suspended; report adopted.

Sitting suspended from1.4 to 2.15 p.m.

Motion (by Mr. Higgs) proposed -

That this Bill be now read a third time.

Mr WEST:
East Sydney

.- No Bill has passed through Parliament with such rapidity, though it is a measure that should have received the most serious consideration from every honorable member. In my opinion, a serious mistake has been made by the Government in their anxiety to meet the wishes of hon orable members in fixing a differential rate in the case of children. For the first child10s. is to be allowed, for the second child 7s. 6d., and for each other child 5s. The mistake lies in providing a smaller sum for the children who will be for the longest period with the mother, and dependent on her. They should get more than 5s. a week after the elder children have come of age. I do not think that it was intended to differentiate in favour of the small family. If steps are not taken to remove the error the measure must be soon amended by a further Bill. The adoption of a flat rate would be the most equitable system. This principle of differentiation may be copied into other legislation, though it is quite contrary to the teachings of the party to which I, and to which Ministers belong.

Mr HIGGS:
Capricornia · ALP

– This is the first intimation that I have had as to the honorable member’s construing of the provision. I do not think the honorable member is correct. I had the assistance of one of our Crown Law advisers in drafting the amendment, and the spirit of it is that when the first child reaches the age of sixteen years and ceases to draw the allowance the second child drops into the place the first child has vacated. The matter can be made clear by a regulation, or, if necessary, an’ amendment will be made should the Crown Law advisers recommend such action.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a third time.

page 8367

PERSONAL EXPLANATION

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

– Owing to the splendid reports of our speeches by Hansard I do not peruse proofs of my speeches as I should, hence an error occurred in some remarks I made while speaking on the Budget. Speaking of the hydro-electric scheme in Tasmania, I am reported as having said -

There is a current from the generating station 63 miles from Hobart having a voltage of 83,000 electric horse-power. “ Electric horse-power “ should read “volts.” Further, I am reported to have said -

The enormous power of the current -

It should be “ pressure” - can be understood from the fact that the tramways in Hobart are run with a voltage of about 410 volts as compared with this high potential current from the hydroelectric scheme of 83,000 electric horse-power.

There again “electric horse-power” should be “volts.” I make this correction simply that my speech may read intelligibly.

page 8368

WAR PRECAUTIONS BILL No. 4

Second Reading

Motion (by Mr. Jensen) proposed -

That this Bill be now read a second time.

Mr FINLAYSON:
Brisbane

– I desire to get an assurance from the Minister that there will be some modification of policy in regard to the administration of the War Precautions Act, which at present is putting a limitation on free speech and a free press in such a way as was never authorized by Parliament, or suggested by the Government when the measure was passed. I further wish to know whether there is to be any change in regard to the prosecution of men such as Percy Mandino, of Brisbane; Thomas Barker, of New South Wales; Skurry, of Melbourne; and others? If it is the policy of the Government to use the War Precautions Act for the purpose of interfering with the expression of free opinion at a time when ordinary criticism would be quite in order, and special criticism not out of place, it is a degradation of the powers of the Government, and an unfair use of the measure. The Minister is quite well aware of the dissatisfaction that these prosecutions have occasioned in the public mind. Last week I referred to these limitations on free speech, and a free press, as being a great hindrance to recruiting. One of the most serious hindrances we have torecruiting, especially to the working classes offering themselves, is the tyrannical administration of the War Precautions Act. If the Minister will give the House some assurance that there will be a reasonable modification in regard to the administration of the measure, I shall withdraw any opposition to this Bill, but if he cannot give that assurance, we must find some better means for applying the Act. There can beno justification for the prosecutions. It is a farce and a comedy of government to imagine that what a man says, even a Minister, can have the effect that it has been claimed has been caused by Messrs. Barker, Mandino, and Skurry, whom I quote merely by way of illustration. In the Argus the other week, it was said that a statement made by Senator Pearce would be most prejudicial to recruiting. If that was the case the Minister of Defence should have been interned. I wondered at the time whether there was a hope of the Act being applied to him. Why should it be applied to Mandino’s statement or Barker’s cartoon, and not to the Minister’s statement? The law should not know any difference between the Minister and Barker. Barker’s cartoon had not the slightest effect on recruiting. How can the publication of a cartoon in an obscure paper, or the expression of an opinion conveyed to a few individuals on the Domain or the Yarra Bank, affect the patriotism of those people? These prosecutions amount to foolishness, almost to stupidity. There is more reason to-day, in the time of war, for having a free expression of opinion, and an unlimited opportunity of expressing that opinion, than there is in ordinary times. Mr. Justice Higgins has said most correctly that acts of Government are always open to criticism, and as war is one of the most important acts of Government it is particularly a subject for criticism. No one believes in his inmost heart that the man on the Domain or the Yarra Bank, or speaking from a soap-box at a corner of the street, or even giving his opinion at a public meeting, will affect the policy of the Government or the conduct of the war. The best guarantee for the protection of responsible government is the free expression of opinion. This party, of all parties in politics in the world to-day, has had to fight opposition of the most strenuous kind, misapprehension, abuse, lies, and false reports, and we have always claimed liberty of conscience and freedom of speech, and that under a Labour Government there should be such an exercise of the powers of government as I have referred to is altogether unreasonable. But if the Minister will give the House some assurance of the kind I have indicated, I shall be content to give him another chance to see what he can do.

Mr WEST:
East Sydney

.- I have attended the Sydney Domain and the Yarra Bank in Melbourne on many occasions, and for the life of me I cannot understand why the Government should object to what has been said there. I was on the Yarra Bank last Sunday with other honorable members, and a more orderly crowd I have never seen. What surprised me most was the presence of about twelve or fourteen of the biggest policemen I have ever seen; some of them must have weighed about twenty-two stone. On about the second or third Sunday in April there were six gatherings on the Yarra Bank, and at five of them the subject under discussion was religion. One speaker affirmed that there was a God and another said that there was not. The only meeting at which an address of an intellectual character was to be heard was that at which the speaker was an A.W.U. member. He was addressing the crowd on the history of the war, and the speech was so good that if it had been delivered in this House it would have taught honorable members something. I ask the Government to use a little discretion in regard to the meetings both in the Sydney Domain and on the Yarra Bank. I should say that for every one man who attends the Yarra Bank meetings 500 or 400 attend the meetings in the Sydney Domain. Yet the Government in New South Wales do not consider the gatherings of sufficient importance to warrant the attendance of a large number of policemen. The Federal Government would be wise if in the operation of the War Precautions Act they allowed orderly discussion and criticism. A good deal of the criticism has reference to members of Parliament, and I for one like to attend and hear what is said about me. I hope the Government will allow the meetings to continue. There are certain people in the community who are noted for their exceptional ideas, and they think they can make the world a better place. They do no harm. Let it not be said that a Labour Government are desirous of smothering free speech. My own experience, on Sunday after Sunday, is that no harm is done by allowing these persons an opportunity to ventilate their views.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time.

In Committee:

Clause 1 agreed to.

Clause 2 -

Section 4 (“Regulations”) of the principal Act is amended…..

Amendment (by Mr. Jensen) agreed to-

That after the word “ amended,” the following words be inserted : - “(a) by inserting after sub-section (1) the following sub-section : - “ (1a) The Governor-General may make such regulations ashe thinks desirable for the more effectual prosecution of the war, or the more effectual defence of the Commonwealth or of the realm, prescribing and regulating -

  1. any action to be taken by or in regard to alien enemies, or persons having enemy associations or connexions, with reference to possession and ownership of their property, the continuance or discontinuance of their trade or business, and their civil rights and obligations; and
  2. the conditions (including times, places, and prices) of the disposal or use of any property, goods, articles, or things of any kind.”; and
  3. the requisitioning of any goods, articles, or things of any kind”; and (b).”

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Amendment (by Mr. Jensen) agreed to-

That the following new clause be inserted to follow clause 2 : - “ 3. This Act shall be deemed to have come into force at the date of the commencement of the War Precautions Act 1914, and all regulations purporting to have been made under that Act shall have effect accordingly as if made in pursuance “of the power conferred by this Act.”

Title agreed to.

Bill reported with amendments.

Standing Orders suspended, and Bill passed through its remaining stages.

page 8369

PATENTS ACT (PARTIAL SUSPENSION) BILL

Second Reading

Mr TUDOR:
Minister of Trade and Customs · Yarra · ALP

– I move -

That this Bill be now read a second time.

Honorable members will recollect that, when the last Patents Act was passed, we copied a section out of the British Act, which provided for the working of the patent in the country where it was held, so that patents which were held in Australia by any persons or firms outside Australia should be operated in Australia within two years from the granting of them. That is the present law. But the British Government have found that, on account of such a large number of the holders of. the patents being engaged in the manufacture of munitions and in other warlike preparations, they are unable to enforce that section in Great Britain. In order to bring our law into line with the British Act, and so as not to penalize British manufacturers who are engaged in war work, this Bill is introduced to suspend the operation of that compulsory section. There is only one clause in the Bill, and it reads -

The operation of section 87a of the Patents Act 1903-1909 shall be suspended during the continuance of the present war, and for a period of six months thereafter, and in reckoning the period of four years mentioned in that section the period during which that section is suspended by virtue of this Act shall not bc taken into account.

Of course, this Bill will suspend the patents of everybody, but if we do not make the amendment, American or other neutral holders of patents will be able to operate their rights to the prejudice of Britishers who are otherwise engaged.

Mr Kelly:

– Despite the Act being brought into conformity with the British Act, individual instances may have arisen in which patents have lapsed.

Mr TUDOR:

– I have not heard of any having lapsed, but I shall endeavour to obtain information on the point. Our Act was not brought into operation for a certain time, and it is probable that, even after its commencement, some little time elapsed before we had any applications for patents. If any patents have lapsed, it may be advisable to make an amendment dating the operation of the Bill from the commencement of the war. This measure will provide that we shall not enforce what are considered by some people to be penal provisions. They are really not penal provisions in ordinary times - on the .contrary, they are very just - but, on account of the extraordinary circumstances that obtain, we think it only fair to those engaged’ in war work that they should have tlie advantage which the Bill confers.

Sir ROBERT BEST:
Kooyong

– I agree with what has been said by the Minister as to the desirability of the amendment, but I think that the conditions have been so abnormal during the whole period of the war that many patentees have probably suffered serious disadvantage in consequence. I suggest’ to the Minister the insertion after the word “ suspended “ of the following words: - “ as from the commencement of, and during the continuance of, the present war.”

Mr FENTON:
Maribyrnong

.- Does this Bill apply to enemy patents?

Mr Tudor:

– They are dealt with under another Act, and are suspended. Some people are operating enemy patents at the present time.

Mr FENTON:

– A disgraceful state of affairs was disclosed in Great Britain the other day, when the management of the Technical Museum at South Kensington had to apply to a Court of law for the right to operate a German patent that would be of use in connexion with the Government’s war-like preparations. The application was opposed by the agents of the German patentees, and the decision of the Court had to be obtained before the Technical Museum could proceed with that necessary war work. . I do not know whether the same position obtains in Australia. Personally, I have no regard for enemy patents. ‘ If we can allow our own manufacturers to operate them and give employment to our own men, let us do so without any consideration to the enemy patentee.

Mr KELLY:
Wentworth

.- I understand that no British patent rights have lapsed up to the present, and that this Bill is merely, for the purpose of protecting British patentees, under the penal sections referred to by the Minister, against the competition of neutrals. The Bill really protects our own people. It does not in any way impinge or touch in the remotest way the question of enemy patent rights, which is dealt with in another measure. I think we might pass this Bill without delay.

Mr Tudor:

– By inquiry from the Commissioner of Patents I have ascertained that no patents have yet lapsed, but the passage of this Bill will ‘ save certain patents from doing so.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time, and passed through its remaining stages without amendment.

page 8370

INVALID AND OLD-AGE PENSIONS APPROPRIATION BILL

In Committee (Consideration of GovernorGeneral’s message) :

Motion (by Mr. Higgs) proposed -

That it is expedient that an appropriation of revenue be made for the purposes of a Bill for an Act to grant and apply out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund a sum for Invalid and Old-age Pensions.

Mr HANNAN:
Fawkner

.- Many opinions are expressed as to the taxation imposed on certain sections of the community in connexion with the war, but I believe that the most heavily taxed are the invalid and old-age pensioners. The Labour party, when appealing to the country, made a distinct promise that one of the first measures would be a Bill toincrease these pensions by 2s. 6d. per week.

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP

– There was a qualification that it depended on whether the financial conditions permitted.

Mr HANNAN:

– The financial responsibilities of the war have so far prevented that promise being carried into effect, and thus, I submit, these deserving people, by this deprivation, are really paying a tax equal to 25 per cent. The earliest opportunity should be taken to remove the injustice. The blind, by dint of much tuition, are enabled to follow certain trades, and the only reward they get for trying to better their position is to be deprived of an invalid pension. Immediately they have sufficient skill and ability to earn £1 per week theylose the right to a pension, so that, instead of their being assisted, as this worthy section of the community ought to be in the manner really intended, a hardship is inflicted on them. In the institute in Victoria there are, in the mat shop, a number of married men, four of whom average £1 5s. per week, two of whom earn £1 5s. 6d. each, two of whom earn £1 6s. 6d. each, while one earns £1 7s., and another £1 7s. 6d. Because of these earnings they are denied an invalid pension ; and the law ought to be amended to permit these unfortunate men, and some women, to obtain the benefit of the Act, quite irrespective of their small earnings. I trust that the Treasurer, who is naturally sympathetic in regard to such people, will take the matter into consideration, and at the earliest opportunity introduce a measure which will have the effect of giving to these people that to which the majority of honorable members believe they are entitled..

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Resolution reported.

Standing Orders suspended.

Resolution adopted.

Ordered -

That Mr. Higgs and Mr. O’Malley do prepare and bring in a Bill to carry out the foregoing resolution.

Bill presented by Mr. Higgs, and passed through all its stages without amendment.

page 8371

WAR CENSUS BILL (No. 3)

Mr. KING O’MALLEY (Darwin-

Minister of Home Affairs) [3.5].- I move -

That the Bill be now read a second time.

The object of this Bill, which has come down from the Senate, is simply to strengthen the Act of 1915, and facilitate proof of the offence of omitting to send in cards. Thousands of people take no notice of the official intimation, and the Crown, as the law stands at present, is unable to prove the offence. The Bill provides that, in any proceedings, the averment of the prosecutor shall be deemed to be proved in the absence of proof to the contrary, and a certificate in writing, signed by the Statistician, will be prima facie evidence that the defendant has failed to transmit the necessary form.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time, and passed through its remaining stages without amendment.

page 8371

RULES PUBLICATION BILL

Second Reading

Mr. TUDOR (Yarra- Minister of

Trade and Customs) [3.10]. - I move -

That this Bill be now read a second time.

The object of the Bill is to avoid the necessity of making rules and regulations when once these have been provisionally published. The Act of 1903 provides that at least sixty days must elapse between the publication of the provisional rule and the publication of the statutory rule, and, although that Act has been in operation for thirteen years, hardly one of these provisional rules has been questioned. The provisional publication was for the purpose of allowing any outsiders to suggest amendments, but, as I say, hardly one has been suggested, and the Bill will make the provisional rule the rule itself, thus saving much expense in printing and distributing. The rights of honorable members will not be jeopardized in any way.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time, and passed through its remaining stages without amendment.

page 8372

BILLS RETURNED FROM SENATE

The following Bills were returned from the Senate without amendment: -

War Loan (United Kingdom) Bill (No. 3).

States Loan Bill.

Representation Bill.

page 8372

ACTS INTERPRETATION BILL

Second Reading

Mr TUDOR:
Minister of Trade and Customs · Yarra · ALP

– I move-

That this Bill be now read a second time.

This is a purely legal measure. It provides that where, in any Act, reference is made to any other Act, and that other Act is subsequently amended, then, unless the contrary intention appears, the reference shall, from the date of the amendment, be deemed to be to that Act as so amended. I have not had time to look into the Bill very closely, but I understand that when an Act- say, the Electoral Act - is referred to in another Act, the reference shall be deemed to include any amendments to the Electoral Act.

Mr W Elliot Johnson:

– Is the Bill urgently required now?

Mr TUDOR:

– The Bill has been passed by the Senate, and I understand that it will be of convenience to the Crown Law Department.

Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The Minister of Trade and Customs has drawn attention to a practice, which, I think, is a good one, of saving people the trouble of going back and looking over a whole series of Acts; but. if the Government are going to adopt this plan generally, a great deal of care will have to be exercised, because in all the States and in England, where there is consolidation of Acts, the certificate from the Chief Justice is always required to assure Parliament that no fresh law has been incorporated in the Statute which has been brought down to date. It is an easy matter for a legal officer of the Crown to alter the law when adding a slight phrase, or even aword, to an Act or a series of Acts in order to give it some modern interpretation. In New South Wales, where Judge Heydon spent several years in consolidating the Statutes, in all cases he had to receive a certificate from the Chief Justice to show that no fresh law or alteration of the law had been incorporated.

Sir Robert Best:

– -I understand that this is merely for the purpose of citation.

Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The Minister used the word “ consolidation.” If it is merely for citation purposes there is no objection to the measure.

Mr Tudor:

– The use of the word “ consolidation “ was an error. This Bill merely provides that the last amending Act shall be the one to be cited as the title.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time, and passed through its remaining stages without amendment.

page 8372

POST AND TELEGRAPH BILL

Mr WEBSTER:
PostmasterGeneral · Gwydir · ALP

– I move -

That this Bill be now read a second time.

The Bill is brought forward for the purpose of expediting and economizing the administration of the Postal Department by bringing districts that are distant from the principal centres in one State under the administration that is located in the central office which is nearest to them . For instance, the administration of Broken Hill from Sydney means expense and circumlocution. We propose to administer Broken Hill from Adelaide. Places distant from the governing centre of the State will be controlled from the nearest administrative centre, though it may be in another State.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time, and passed through its remaining stages without amendment.

page 8372

PUBLIC SERVICE BILL

Mr TUDOR:
Minister of Trade and Customs · Yarra · ALP

– I move -

That this Bill be now read a second time.

This is a Bill which is introduced for the same purpose as the Bill just passed. There are certain officers in the Public Service in districts which it is proposed to administer from the nearest centre, though it may be in another State. For instance, we wish to administer Broken Hill from Adelaide, and Port Darwin from Brisbane.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time, and passed through its remaining stages without amendment.

page 8373

CUSTOMS BILL

Mr TUDOR:
Minister of Trade and Customs · Yarra · ALP

– I move -

That this Bill be now read a second time.

This Bill is brought forward for the same reason as the two preceding Bills.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time, and passed through its remaining stages without amendment.

page 8373

TRADING WITH THE ENEMY BILL (No. 3)

Mr TUDOR:
Minister of Trade and Customs · Yarra · ALP

– I move -

That this Bill be now read a second time.

This Bill has come to us from the Senate. There are three principles involved : firstly, the provision of a proper custodian of enemy property; secondly, the registration of enemy property and enemy debts; and thirdly, the winding up of enemy companies. The Bill introduces no new features, but it amplifies the Act of 1914, and, with certain modifications in regard to shares and other things to he handed over to the public trustee, it follows the Imperial Act. The modifications refer to matters that are applicable here and not in Great Britain. For instance, we have taken over enemy shares and other things, which has not been done in Great Britain. The public trustee under the Bill is the ComptrollerGeneral of Customs, and he is given power to appoint others to represent him. Honorable members who have made themselves conversant with the measure will realize that it is best to safeguard the position of the public trustee.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time, and passed through its remaining stages without amendment.

page 8373

WAR PENSIONS BILL

Bill returned from the Senate without amendment.

page 8373

LANDS ACQUISITION BILL

Second Reading

Mr HIGGS:
Capricornia · ALP

.- I move -

That this Bill be now read a second time.

Last evening, the honorable member for Richmond asked for information about an item of £102,000 which had been advanced for the purchase of land for a site for the Commonwealth Bank. I informed the honorable member that the item appeared on the Estimates because the Government had not been able to give the Governor of the Bank a clear title to the land, and that a Bill was necessary for that purpose; but that, as soon as the Bill was passed, the Governor of the Bank would pay the Government the £102,000. In accordance with the request of the honorable member for Maribyrnong, I have perused the history of this transaction. The land was acquired under our powers of resumption, and, as we had to pay the owner 3 per cent. while he was waiting for his money, the Commonwealth Bank is asked to pay 3 per cent. on the money owing by them. The Bill is required to enable us to give the Commonwealth Bank a clear title to this land ; and, as soon as it becomes law, we shall collect the money.

Mr WATT:
Balaclava

.- If we had regard only for what the Treasurer has said, it would appear that the only purpose of the Bill is the provision of the title for the Commonwealth Bank. That may be the chief object of the Bill, but there are other provisions..

Mr Higgs:

– I should have said that it was one of the objects.

Mr WATT:

– I hope that the Minister will explain some of those other provisions, more particularly in relation to lands held by the State and the public lands referred to in so many of the clauses.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a second time.

In Committee:

Clause 1 (Short title and citation).

Mr KELLY:
Wentworth

.- I think it ought to be explained that the honorable member for Balaclava was referring to another Bill dealing with a number of subjects, and when the honorable member accused the Treasurer of not having been quite frank with the House, the Minister, thinking he must have been up to some of his old pranks, owned up. To the amazement of everybody, the Treasurer has been completely candid and absolutely accurate.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 2 agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment, and passed through its remaining stages.

page 8374

QUESTION

SUPPLY

In Committee of Supply:

Mr HIGGS:
Treasurer · Capricornia · ALP

.- I move-

That a sum not exceeding. £2,752,388 be granted to His Majesty for or towards defraying the services of the year ending 30th June, 1917.

As honorable members desire to catch their trains, I shall not make a lengthy speech. I have no mental reservations on this matter. The Bill will cover a period of two months, to the end of August, and I ask honorable members to observe that the items have been cut down to the lowest limit .

Mr CARR:
Macquarie

– I was hoping that there would be no necessity for me to say anything on this matter. Unfortunately, I have a good deal to say that I would rather not have to say, but I owe a duty to the people who sent me here, and to the country at large, which I intend to discharge. I have always opposed some of the extravagant propositions of the Government, but, being a supporter of the party in power, I have hesitated to take any pronounced stand against them. The Committee will remember that during last session I strongly combated a proposal to remove the Small Arms Factory from Lithgow to the Federal Capital area. I regarded it as a hare-brained proposal coming from a few enthusiasts “ drest in a little brief authority,” who had been skilfully imposed upon by a few designing officials who were anxious to concentrate everything in the Federal Capital area. Lending a ready ear to those designs, they suggested that a Small Arms Factory be established in the Federal Territory. Apart from the inadvisability of concentrating large works connected with war preparations in one place, I had to consider that the proposal meant ruination to a flourishing town, which is destined by nature to become the industrial centre of Australian manufacture, but apparently is to be spoilt by a few unthinking men. The upshot of the discussion that took place was an understanding that the matter was to be held up until Parliament had. an opportunity of deciding whether the proposal was to be carried through or not. During the recess, some time in March, the newspapers announced that the Treasurer had hypothecated a sum of £40,000 for the purpose of establishing at Can berra an arsenal, including a small arms factory. This action cut right across the grain of the honorable understanding arrived at before the House adjourned, and, as Parliament was not in session, I had no alternative but to resort to the public press, an action which apparently disturbed the serenity of some Ministers. The Government were guilty of a breach of faith in approaching this matter in a circumlocutory fashion, instead of directly. The utilization of the Treasurer’s Advance for this purpose was quite illegal, and that is proved by the fact that when the matter came before the House in a formal way the figures were reduced from £40,000 to £20,000, so as to bring the proposition within the law. When the Government are guilty of abuses of that kind, they are not to be trusted; for my own part, I am not prepared to trust them out of my sight. The other day I saw the Acting Prime Minister, and expressed to him my point of view, namely, that it was inadvisable to concentrate all Defence works in one area, and also that the removal of the Small Arms Factory from Lithgow would do an injury to that town, and I told him that contumely was being heaped upon me as an individual who had been a docile supporter of the Labour Government during the past ten years. What else took place at that interview I am not prepared to disclose, but I left the Acting Prime Minister in the frame of mind of a boy who is told “to shut his eyes, and open his mouth, and trust what God will send him.” I did not wish to have a factious debate in the House, but I find that is unavoidable. To show my confidence in the Government, and to give them another opportunity, I left Melbourne and allowed matters to take their course, believing that what I wanted would be conserved to me, and that the town of Lithgow and its people would be protected in every way. When I returned to Melbourne, I found that the Leader of the Opposition, after frequent interviews with the Government, had got a certain amount of satisfaction from the Acting Prime Minister. I feel sorry that it was left to the Leader of the Opposition to deal with this, and that a mere follower of the Labour party was not to be complimented to the extent ofhaving that consideration bestowed on him. However, I accepted the position. Later, a state- ment was read by the Treasurer, and supported by the Acting Leader of the House, which did not convey all that is desired.

Mr Higgs:

– When I read that statement the Acting Prime Minister was sitting in the Chamber, and the Leader of the Opposition raised no objection at the time.

Mr CARR:

– I say that the statement in itself was not satisfactory; it was not sufficient. It promised only, if the Government remained in office, to leave the Small Arms Factory at Lithgow until the end of the war, and that then, before any further steps were taken, a vote of Parliament would be taken. That assurance was not satisfactory for these reasons: It is highly improbable that the war will be ended for some time, but, should it end sooner than anticipated, and it be decided that the Factory shall not remain where it is, all that has been done at Lithgow will have to be undone. That is just what is not wanted. In order to lift the cloud from Lithgow and prevent a distinct interference with the output of armaments - as I will demonstrate in a moment - it was necessary that some finality should be arrived at, and I submitted to the Prime Minister before I left Melbourne that there was very little difference between the present state of affairs and the Government saying that if they are in office they will not dismantle the old plant until the end of the war. The town of Lithgow does not know what its position is, and it is that uncertainty T am anxious to remove. The uncertainty is not only inimical to the general wellbeing, of the town itself and its people and interests, but is prejudicial to the conduct of the war. The Government are not giving anything away by, saying that the Lithgow Factory will not be dismantled while the Government remain in office until after the war, yet they are continuing an uncertainty which is very “unfair and an abuse of power. To prove my contention that we had every assurance before the House rose that nothing would be done during recess, I refer honorable members to the remarks of the Minister of Trade and Customs on 5th May, vide Hansard, p. 2838 -

When the Committee have reported, it will be the duty of the Government to bring a proposal before Parliament, and place a sum on the Estimates for whatever works are recommended. _ i

Also -

When the Committee reports, it will devolve on the Government to take action in Parliament.

The Minister made frequent reference to “ when the Committee reports,” not that what the Committee reports is worth anything. Mr. Speaker, in refusing to permit a general discussion at that stage, said -

When the report of that body is presented to Parliament, honorable members will be allowed the fullest opportunity of discussing it in all its bearings.

We are now being hustled and bustled in order that the darkness of recess may once more cover the Government, who have proved faithless in regard to these obligations. Mr. Fisher, in reply to the honorable member for Parramatta, said, on the same date -

I have only to say that the Government will not do anything that they cannot maintain in this House. The question of the site will be submitted to this House and Parliament.

When that £40,000 was voted by the Treasurer, and I took exception to his action in the press, Senator Pearce stated that the first portion of the new buildings to be erected at Canberra would be the Small Arms Factory. That is clear evidence that the Government were acting independently of Parliament, ignoring the people’s representatives, and treating me with the utmost contempt. Further, Mr. Fisher said, on 14th August, in reply to the right honorable member for Parramatta, “ You will have plenty of opportunity for discussion.” Mr. Archibald moved - flint, in view, of the report of the Parliamentary Committee on Public Works, it is desirable that a Small Arms Factory, with necessary provision for housing accommodation, be erected forthwith at Canberra.

The debate on the motion proceeded, but a division was not reached; and, on the 13th August, Mr. Hughes, in answer to the right honorable member for Parramatta, declared that the motion was “ not lost, but gone before.” Following that, there was a declaration that nothing would be done until Parliament had had an opportunity of discussing the whole question. What was done? The highly-endowed Works Committee, in its endeavour to get everything concentrated in the Federal Capital, rushed so rashly into the business that it made three separate attempts to find a site there. It started work on one site close to the Federal Parliament House. Imagine placing an arsenal there! A second site was chosen a little further away. Ultimately, both were abandoned ; and then, acting on some sudden inspiration, it was decided to send a Commission to India to ascertain what should be done in this matter. There the Commission discovered that the armament works were scattered throughout the country ; but some genius in India told the visitors that it was found very inconvenient to have the works so separated, and that the authorities had come to the conclusion that it would be a better idea to concentrate all the works in one place. Apparently, the Commission decided that a’ further experiment in this matter was necessary, and, therefore, as the distribution of armament works was not satisfactory, they would concentrate those to be erected in Australia. In other words, they would “ try it on the dog,” and see how it operated here. The Federal Capital area is to be the arena in which this experiment will be tried. As a matter of principle, it is highly unwise to have all .the country’s munition works in one place. Had a few bombs been dropping in India, the officials there would have been pleased that the factories were distributed throughout the land instead of being concentrated in one centre. I only hope that if trouble does come to Australia, those gentlemen who are responsible for the proposal to concentrate our armament works in the Federal Capital area will be caught napping in Parliament House at Canberra. This third attempt to select a site has resulted in the choice of a place which is 19 miles by road from the Federal Capital centre. It is said that the site can be reached by travelling 10 miles’, but the country is very rugged, and I doubt if a satisfactory connexion can be had across the hills. The fact that the site has been chosen so far away disposes of the argument that we once heard that the establishment of the Factory in the Federal Capital Territory would help to augment the population. People, even 10 miles away from a small centre such as Canberra will be for some years, cannot be said to be living there. So that the Works Committee, have practically destroyed their .own contention by making a selection of this kind. The arguments in favour of Lithgow, as against such a place as it is now pro-

Mr. Corr. posed to remove the Factory to, are of: such a grave nature that we cannot reconcile the proposal with common sense. I stand aghast at the idea that the affairs, of this country should be in the hands of men who can make such a proposal as to destroy and pull down an established concern such as the Lithgow Factory, and remove it from a centre where nature has provided all the necessaries of manufacture, such as coal, iron, steel, shale oil, and cement. Lithgow is hemmed in by the hills, and would prove difficult of access if ever it were necessary to defend it. All these advantages are thrown to the winds in favour of a place now inhabited by, and only fit for, sheep and rabbits. I have been carefully over the ground, and know exactly what the conditions are at both places. Further, men who have been trained to this work of manufacturing small arms will not go to a country place far removed from all tho companionship and advantages of civilization. Many of the young fellows employed at the Lithgow works have their homes and parents in the town, and they certainly would not be willing to move under the circumstances. I am confident that considerable trouble would result from any attempt to remove the skilled workers, who are doing fairly well where they are, and who would do better if it were not for the shadow that is hanging over the town. At present people, who otherwise would be willing to go to Lithgow to work, decline because there is no accommodation there; indeed, the congestion is so terrible that houses cannot be obtained. Men who do go to work there Lave to leave their wives elsewhere, and this, of course, does not conduce to a contented populace or result in the best output from the works. The constant ebb and flow from the Factory is such that I have no doubt there is quite a material difference in the output as compared with what it would be under settled conditions. A Government which, charged with immense responsibility, in view of the war, does anything that would in any way militate against the output of our armaments or our contribution to the successful conduct of the war, seems to me to demand the severest castigation. A Government which will do that sort of thing forfeits the confidence of the people. Why “ monkey “ with a most vital industry at this most critical time in our history? Why make suggestions which cannot be carried out until after the war is over, and suggestions which must have the effect of destroying a town by destroying confidence in its continuity? This calls for the loudest censure. To show, further, the absolute inanity of those who are controlling these affairs, let me quote from figures from the Estimates we have just passed.We find that £20,000 is set down as the preliminary cost of the Canberra establishment, and in the same Estimates we find £50,000 for new machinery to be installed at the Small Arms Factory at Lithgow. The cost of installing the new machinery is set down at £34,000, so that it is going to cost that amount to install £50,000 worth of material. The Government are going so far in helping matters at Lithgow as to purchase plant; but the figures I have quoted will give honorable members some idea of what the cost will be when all this machinery has to be rooted up and taken to Canberra. I can scarcely believe my eyes when I see such figures as these. Gentlemen who control the expenditure of the country, who are the supervising avenues through which the money must flow, and who yet are men of such calibre as to make suggestions of this kind at a time like this, call for the loudest condemnation. I shall have no hesitation in voting every time against a Government who propose such a hare-brained scheme, and encourage extravagance of the worst type. They do not even know what their undertakings are going to cost - they do not seem to have any conception of the responsibility they are undertaking. The latest instance we have as to the efforts of the gentlemen who made the proposal for the removal of the Small Arms Factory from Lithgow is the Customs House in Sydney, the alterations to which were estimated to cost £23,000 or £24,000, but which it is found, on being more closely scrutinized, will cost £50,000. Men who make such egregious errors are not to be further trusted with the expenditure of public moneys in this country. It is quite an outrage on public decency that these things should be allowed to go on. The up-to-date Factory at Lithgow has cost no less than £250,000, representing land, buildings, machinery foundations, and permanent improvements.

Mr CARR:

– What I mention are the simple factors to be seen there - the tangible assets. According to the latest evidence, as I have shown, it costs nearly as much to install machinery as to buy it. Where is the faintest shadow of reason for transplanting an establishment at such an enormous cost? The world is in the throes of an awful struggle, and this particular industry is vital to us if we are to play our part in anything like a decent manner in bringing the war to a successfull conclusion. It baffles one to understand this chicanery on the part of the Government, for I cannot call it anything else. Iwish to very plainly refer, in justice to myself, to the apparent settlement of the question the other day. In my opinion, the statement of the Government that nothing would be done until after the war was tantamount to saying they would not do anything while they were in office; yet there is no guarantee in that for me. After the statement had been read, the Leader or the Opposition made the following statement in the House -

The Minister of Defence made it quite clear that, even after the war, he would need two Small Arms Factories to produce the rifles that he will need, and that, therefore, there would be no dismantling of the Lithgow plant at any time.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– He said it to me. and to the honorable member for Maranoa.

Mr CARR:

– Exactly. The honorable member forParramatta proceeded -

Of course, Parliament can rip up the works at any time, and do what it likes with them. The authority of Parliament is always unquestioned.

Those of us who are interested in the Factory do not dispute that; and my wish is that Parliament shall decide the matter, so that Lithgow may be relieved from further anxiety. But theGovernment have not the pluck to say that they are going to act as they should, and not give their fancy free play because the Public Works Committee wish to try an experiment. The honorable member for Parramatta went on to say, after an interjection by the Minister of Trade and Customs -

At any time? That is the point.

Mr Tudor:

– What was the interjection ?

Mr CARR:

– The interjection was -

Then shall I say that this Government will take no action in that direction.

Mr Tudor:

– That was not my interjection.

Mr CARR:

– It is thus reported. The honorable member for Parramatta continued -

The Minister will see that he is conditioning everything on the war. It creates uncertainty. That is the trouble. The Minister of Defence made it clear to us that he would need both factories after the war.

Mr Page:

– And that there would be no dismantling.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Quite true. He said that he would need both Factories.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta

– I intend to rely on the statement which the Minister of Defence made to me in the presence of the Government Whip, the honorable member for Maranoa.

Mr Higgs:

– I am sure that Senator Pearce will honour that statement.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– That statement was clear and unequivocal - that he would need the two Factories, and that he now had no intention of attempting at any time to dismantle the Factory at Lithgow.

The honorable member for Maranoa said -

I desire to verify the statement which has just been made by the Leader of the Opposition. This morning the Minister of Defence made it very clear to both of us that there was no intention on the part of the Government to dismantle the Small Arms Factory at Lithgow, except that new machinery which was about to be erected there would subsequently be removed to the arsenal at Canberra.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– He said that the original plant would remain.

Mr PAGE:

– Exactly. I am quite satisfied that effect will be given to his assurance.

I am in a perfect quandary. Is all this a joke, or what is it?

Mr Joseph Cook:

– It is no joke. The Government got the vote through.

Mr CARR:

– This seems to be a sort of subterfuge, which I certainly decline to stand for. I am charged, as a representative, along with other honorable members, with the duty of conserving the public interests in every way, and that can best be done by not wasting any more money. The extravagance that has gone on is quite sufficient. The other night we had an indictment by the PostmasterGeneral of the Department of Home Affairs, which was sufficient to damn any administration, and that indictment, I think, is, unfortunately, only too true. There is too much of this sort of thing going on. I realize that our system of government makes it necessary that permanent heads should regulate the administration; that Ministers who come and go cannot have the grip that those officials have of the affairs of the coun try. I realize, further, that our system is a compromise between a bureaucracy and representative government pure and simple; and it must be so. But when Democracy has been allowed to have its own sweet will to such a disastrous extent, it proves that Ministers who come and go had better not “come” at all. They are guilty of negligence when they allow the Christopher Wrens and the Michael Angelos of the Public Works Committee to dictate what shall be done. Such Ministers are too weak for their position, and, if they have an opinon, have not the courage to stand by it. The Works Committee listen to all that is told them, and the officials have their own “fish to fry.” They are not responsible to the people, and they are safe from the reach of their masters. That is why I oppose the extension of government functions, because it would only create a larger number of such men with ho sense of control or ownership, and, therefore, careless of the public money so long as their own paltry convenience is met. They desire to have their works and workers’ dwellings around them, ‘ so that there may be no travelling. They look for a nice little nest at Canberra, and flatter the members of the Public Works Committee as to their capacity, and thus get them to agree to chimerical schemes. They appeal to the Socialistic instincts of the members of the Committee, and that is at the back of all the trouble. We should never have heard about moving the Small Arms Factory had it not been for the skilled manipulation of the ears of the Public Works Committee by the Government officials, who pointed out how nice it would be to have all the workmen’s dwellings there, with “ everything in the garden lovely,” no landlord to disturb their rest, and none of the ordinary frictions of every-day life - a perfect Garden of Eden!

The CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member’s time has expired.

Mr CARR:

– I am very sorry; and I should like permission to continue my

The CHAIRMAN:

– Is it the pleasure of the Committee that the honorable member have leave to continue his speech?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta

– I am very sorry to intrude at this stage, but it is my intention to leave by the evening train, and I should like to say a word or’ two before I go. I rise merely to say that I have never had such a painful experience as that in connexion with the vote referred to. It is quite clear, as the honorable member for Macquarie has said, that the Minister did pledge himself definitely that there would be no dismantling, of the Lithgow Works, and that the Government would need both Factories after the war was over. On the strength of that statement, which was accepted by the House, the vote was passed. There could be no possibility of mistake, because the whole thing was threshed out with considerable attention to detail. I combated the view that two Factories of the kind would be needed, but the Minister went into details, and quoted figures showing that the works at Lithgow, with one shift, could not give him nearly what he required, even under peace conditions, and that it was not possible to rifle the weapons with the present accommodation, let alone build up re-

Serves for war purposes. The Minister made it clear, beyond any possibility of doubt, that he would leave both plants running: - one at Lithgow, and a moderate sized one at Canberra, in connexion with the arsenal, and working in association with the machine-guns manufacture. The Government Whip heard every word, and we both came into the House and placed the facts on record. Now, after the vote has been passed, the Minister coolly tells us that he did not mean he was going to have two plants in two places, but a double plant in one place.

Mr Higgs:

– If Parliament so desires, of course.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– That is a pure figment of the Minister’s imagination, and I cannot help feeling that there is a good deal of chicanery also about this. What can Parliament do if it is made impossible to run two Factories? Parliament would not deliberately waste the public funds in running two Factories when it was clear that only one was needed.

Mr Mathews:

– I think we ought to have three or four.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I think so, too; but that is not the view of the Minister. I also submit that, as a preliminary to the establishment of an arsenal at Canberra, or anywhere els®, there should be an inspection and report by an arsenal expert from some other part of the world.

Mr Mathews:

– We have had a few of them.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– These Home Affairs officials made a flying trip to India, and on their return presented an elaborate report. The country has wasted enough money on this mad policy, and the sooner we pull up the better. We have spent £350,000 at Lithgow, and now the Minister’s cool proposal is to rip out that machinery and take it across country to Canberra.

Mr Mathews:

– Do not say that. The Minister would get no supporters for that proposal.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– But that is the proposition. It is useless blinking the fact. The proposal of the Minister is to dismantle the machinery at Lithgow.

Mr Mathews:

– But not the building.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– They talk of using, the building for making waggons. I cannot conceive of. a more expensive place for making waggons than Lithgow. The place is not fitted for that work; it has been designed for the making of rifles. However, I do not propose to debate the matter to-day. I rose for the purpose of making my protest as to tlie conditions under which the Defence vote was obtained the other night. When the House resumes there will be a further opportunity of considering the matter.

Mr Fenton:

– The Small Arms Factory cannot be shifted without a vote of the House being taken.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– It is not a question of shifting the Factory. It is a question of making the conditions such that they influence the vote of honorable members in this chamber. Ministers propose to prejudice the consideration of the whole matter. If, before commencing operations, they would allow honorable members to give a deliberate pronouncement as to the scheme, much trouble would be avoided; but that is precisely what they will not do.

Mr Riley:

– A vote will settle the question. Let us take one now.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– The honorable member would not desire to have a vote taken if he did not think that he had the numbers in his pocket.

Mr Riley:

– So we have.

Mr Wise:

– They did not have the numbers when they put off the matter twelve months ago.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I have never seen more tricks than have been played in connexion with this important matter.

Mr Carr:

– Neither have I.

Mr Riley:

– Why are they howling?

Mr Mathews:

– For the land speculator.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– There are no land speculators in Lithgow. The honorable member does not know anything about the place or he would not talk like that. There is no land around Lithgow except mountainous country. It is ridiculous to talk about land sales. As for the Chairman of the Public Works Committee, there are few men in the House who have shown such bias upon this matter as he has.

Mr Riley:

– I take a broad view of the matter.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– The honorable member takes the national view of his own back yard, which is a popular view in this chamber. I tell him candidly that I do not believe that he has any idea in his head other than the setting up of a Socialistic enterprise at the Federal Capital. That is what is at the bottom of all this business, otherwise honorable members would not be so ready to rush this proposal through at breakneck speed. There is no urgency-

Mr Mathews:

– It is the Lithgow people who want- to rush things. They want all the rush to Lithgow.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– What would the honorable member for Melbourne Ports say if works costing £350,000 were to be removed from his electorate under similar conditions? We have no details before us as to what it is proposed to do. No plans have been submitted. We have not had an opportunity of considering the matter fairly and debating it. A proposal to set up arsenals all over the country, without proper inquiry as to their character, is a waste of the people’s money. The real object of honorable members is to rush some men to Canberra in order to build up there a huge Socialistic State.

Mr Fenton:

– Does the honorable member wish to stop nearly all the work there? All the work at Canberra is a Socialistic scheme.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I know that it is, and I recognise that the building of this arsenal will give honorable members the opportunity of congregating large numbers of people there to finance their schemes. That is at the bottom of all the trouble. Otherwise no party would attempt to play the tricks we are experiencing over this question.

Mr Fenton:

– Surely no tricks have been played ?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Yes; deliberate tricks have been played. The Defence vote was put through the other night under false pretences.

Mr Higgs:

– Does the right honorable gentleman forget that he is making a valedictory speech?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– I shall not pursue the matter further. Never in my life have I had such a painful experience as this. Had it been a question of my recollection against the Minister’s recollection, there would have been room for doubt, but the Government Whip was there, and corroborates every word I say as to the clear understanding of what the Minister said. I protest as strongly as I can against the process of getting votes through the Committee under such conditions. Luckily, before anything can be done, there will be a further chance of considering this question of establishing a huge arsenal at Canberra. I hope sincerely that thematter will be debated, when the House is in a position to debate it, and that the latest expert information available to the world will be secured for the guidance of our deliberations upon this great new defence departure.

Mr CARR:
Macquarie

– I wish to supplement what I was saying a little while ago. The honorable member for Melbourne Ports has referred to land speculation. No one is more hostile to that sort of thing than I am. If the Government had only had the good sense to follow the suggestion of the Minister of Home Affairs at the outset they would have had all the land they required at Lithgow on most desirable terms, and they would have been able to provide regulations governing the dwellings, while improvements could have been carried out with little trouble. For the purpose of showing the condition of the town of Lithgow, and in order to make some impression on the callous company of gentlemen who administer the affairs of the country, I desire to read a letter from the secretary of the Small Arms Factory Employees Association. It is as follows: -

A special committee appointed from this association have made diligent inquiries into the scarcity of housing accommodation in Lithgow, with the purpose of trying tofind a way or means of relieving the present undesirable congestion. . We find there arc at present 1,925 dwellings, with an average of four rooms each, and 12,107 inhabitants, and that 25 per cent. of the houses contain two or more families living in each.

That is the position to which Lithgow has been driven by this Socialistic Labour Government, which has listened to the untenable proposals of the Public Works Committee.

Mr Sampson:

– Why does not the honorable member refer to the majority of the Works Committee ?

Mr CARR:

– I exempt the honorable member. The actions of the majority of the members of the Works Committee bring no credit to the Government. They have brought about this state of affairs at Lithgow, according to this letter, which proceeds -

There have been several serious epidemics in the town during the past two years, namely, measles, scarlet fever, diphtheritic, enteric, and typhoid fever,

This confession is not doing the place any good, but one has to bring forward all the arguments available in fighting the case for Lithgow. These serious epidemics, the letter says, are - due mainly to the overcrowded state of the community.

They are due to the action of the Government. How can Ministers expect me to remain silent in face of these facts, especially when all sorts of trickery are resorted to in order to avoid the issue, as has been done by the Government in the past? The letter continues -

And we are firmly of the opinion that, if something is not done at once to relieve the position, far more serious outbreaks must occur.

In order to help in the manufacture of small arms, 500 or 600 extra men have gone to Lithgow. Is it a fair thing that those whom we asked to work overtime in order that they might do all they could to help during the war should be herded like animals and subjected to risk from epidemics? From my point of view, the attitude of Ministers cannot be maintained. They are very small potatoes in the eyes of the general public when they allow these conditions to prevail in the town to which we look for our supply of rifles for the men who are staking their lives for us at the front; but Ministers dare not have any depth of conception. I have never been so ashamed of a Government as I have been of this one, who compel people to go to Lithgow and manufacture small arms, and live under the congested conditions that I have detailed.

Mr Watt:

– Does the Minister propose to remain silent, and not answer the honorable member?

Mr CARR:

– The Minister knows that there is no answer to what I have said, and he, at least, has the sense to remain quiet. This letter proceeds -

To afford relief, we offer the two following proposals, and appeal to you” to give them your earnest consideration : -

That the Government resume a piece of land situated on the western boundary of the Small Arms Factory property, of about 119 acres, which can be purchased at a cost of not more than £50 per acre.

It was offered to me for £45 per acre last year. There is no idea of making money out of this. The association wish to see the people get an opportunity of living decently, if the Government do not. The letter proceeds -

This then can be subdivided into about 400 allotments of1/4-acre each. The cost, appoximately, would be -

Purchasers could easily be found who would pay £25 per allotment, which would give sufficient returns to the Government to recoup any outlay incurred in the purchase of land, and would show a return on the 400 allotments of £10,000.

The next question is the building of houses, for which we make the following recommendations.

This should appeal to a body of men who go around the country preaching of the paradise that they were going to create. Surely, when they had the opportunity of dealing with men who were submitting themselves to the risk of all sorts of epidemics and’ discomfiture, they should have given consideration to the request put forward by these men. They are satisfied with Lithgow, they do not wish to leave it, they are tied by domestic considerations to it, and they have other interests there. In addition to the men for whom this letter speaks, there are 300 employees at the Factory who own their own houses or land. To shift them would toe quite contrary to the avowed policy of the gentlemen in office to-day - that of advancing the working man and his interests, and helping him to get a happy home together, but here they are ignoring those conditions. Ministers have not enough manliness to say, “Let. us leave well alone.” What immediately concerns the people of Lithgow is the congested state of the town and the daily risk of illness which they run. According to the letter, the Employees Association made the following recommendation : -

That the Federal Government make arrangements (for those desirous of purchasing land from private land-holders) to enable them to do so and to build homes thereon. In regard to this proposal, there is a considerable amount of land in various parts of Lithgow already subdivided, and held by Messrs. Hoskins Ltd. and O’Halloran and Company. We desire to point out this question has no bearing whatever on the proposed removal of the Small Arms Factory from Lithgow, nor is it in the interests solely of the employees at the Factory, but in the interests of the whole of the workers of Lithgow. The ‘ various industrial organizations here will give their co-operation in this matter if the Government will favorably consider it. However, we desire to bring under your notice the way some of the employees at the Factory are* situated, owing to the congestion. Married men, who are unable to obtain housing accommodation hero, are paying 25s. per week for board and lodging, and have to maintain their families in Sydney -

That is a nice way in which to treat those who stand behind the men who have gone to the front. The letter proceeds - where they pay from 15s. to 22s. 6d. per week house rent. Others are paying from 12s. to los. per week for one and two rooms, where they have been fortunate enough to secure them. Workers in other industries are similarly situated owing to the excessive demand for houses, which has caused rents to increase enormously. We feel sure of the success of the first proposal, inasmuch that any expenditure incurred in the purchase of land would be easily recouped, as there are hundreds of workers who, realizing that the future of Lithgow does not depend on the Small Anns Factory being retained here, would readily avail themselves of the opportunity of purchasing a home at a reasonable cost. We also wish to point out that any further expenditure would only be in accordance with the number of houses erected; and if only 100 were erected within a few months, it would considerably relieve the position.

Yet this sort of thing is to be allowed to continue to the end of the war, because, when the war is over, the Government intend to move the Factory. What is their idea? They will not leave the matter to

Mr. Corr. the House. I say, Let us have a decision, let us have the cloud removed, and let us know where we are. There are wider national arguments against the removal of the Factory, and while I am on this subject I take the fullest advantage’ of the time at my disposal to quote from the reports of the Public Works Committee upon the establishment of the Factory at Canberra in order to show how unnecessary is the* anxiety of the Government to take the works from an oldestablished centre and put them at this newfangled place which they have devised “ in the interests of Australia.” I wish to show how it is “ in the interests of Australia.” Colonel Owen, giving evidence, said -

It will take two years to remove the Factory, and many months to extend it.

Just imagine wasting two years at a time when we should be keeping the machinery going day and night in order to meet contingencies that may arise. They talk about shifting the Factory as if it were a travelling fair, but not only will the cost of doing so be enormous, it will take two years to carry out. Mr. Wright, in giving evidence, said -

A second staff could not be got together to take control of a second Factory at Canberra, and get it into operation as quickly as could be done with an extension of the plant here.

That is at Lithgow. Australia has done splendidly in regard to men in this war, but she has lacked in regard to munitions, and yet, when there was a chance of doing something quickly and getting results, the Government said, “No; we shall shift the Factory.” They preferred to undertake a two years’ job instead of one that could be done immediately. What sort of a Government is it that will lend its ear to proposals of that sort? Captain Clarkson said “ It would be very costly to remove the existing machinery from Lithgow to Canberra,” and, further, “ I do not suppose you could put up a workman’s cottage there for less than £500,” to be let at 10s. a week, as against 14s. at Lithgow. That is about the only saving that the Government would make at Canberra, so far as the working of the establishment is concerned. As to the expert opinion by those who came from India, which, we are told, is all in favour of what the Government propose to do, let me say that all the expert opinion available was obtained when Lithgow was chosen as a site for the present Small Arms Factory. No less an authority than Lord Kitchener inspected the Lithgow site, and said that it was excellent for the purpose. I think that Admiral Henderson acquiesced in that opinion. We are now told that new experts have arisen, and that, acting on a tip they received in India, they recommend making the experiment, at Australia’s expense, of a concentrated arsenal. Captain Clarkson further said, “I can only say that if I were running the Factory as my own business, for my own profit, I should think twice before I entertained such a proposition.” Did the Works Committee think twice? No; I do not think they thought at all. They simply acted. Captain Clarkson continued: “If I owned property at Canberra not bringing in very much, I should still have the same objection to moving the works. I do not think it is a business proposition to remove the Factory to Canberra.” We all know that it is not a business proposition, but we do not expect the Works Committee to display business knowledge. That is the unfortunate part of the transaction. There is only one solution of their incapacity, and that is to clear them out. Colonel Miller, another independent authority, said, speaking of Canberra, “I do not think there are any young men in the district who would be likely to take up factory work. I think the hands required would have to be brought here.” The training of men would involve a loss of capital and time. Time is everything in connexion with a war factory at the present moment. Yet we have a Government, who are supposed to give us light and leading in these matters, but who are cutting right across the grain of Australia’s best efforts in connexion with the war, laying ruthless hands on Australia’s vital industry of the moment, and creating such chaos that those who are working at Lithgow are losing heart. Another argument used against Lithgow is in regard to its climate; but Mr. Wright, speaking on that question, said, “ There is no better climate in Australia than that of Lithgow.” Another point I. desire to make is that the report of the Works Committee, of which so much has been heard, is framed and signed by two members of the Committee, Senator Lynch and Mr. Finlayson, who were not at Lithgow when the evidence was taken. What, then, can we think of such a hare brained proposition as this? It is of no use to appeal to the Government; I have given up all hope in that direction. In my own opinion, they are guilty of a breach of trust; they have been tricky with this matter ; they are not doing their duty by Australia, and they are treating one who has been a loyal follower for ten years in a contemptuously indifferent manner.

Mr KELLY:
Wentworth

.- I feel deeply that all the eloquence of the honorable member and all the indignation of the Committee are useless, now that honorable members are anxious to catch their trains. When the Treasurer describes earnest speeches as being valedictions, one feels that, no matter how he may resent the breach of faith on the part of the Acting Prime Minister, and the whole of the humbug, hypocrisy, and trickery of the Government’s intricacies in connexion with this arsenal undertaking, it is futile to protest when honorable members are only anxious to catch their trains. However, as the Acting Prime Minister’s credibility is involved, I ask the Treasurer whether it may not be necessary to adjourn the matter until the next Supply Bill is submitted to the House on its re-assembling. We shall then have an opportunity of giving straightforward consideration to the matter. I urge the Treasurer to take a step of that kind. According to the evidence that has been submitted, the arsenal could not be completed within two years if the Government started to-morrow to build it. As the arsenal will take between two and three years to construct, I think the honour of the procedure in this House is well worth the delay of six weeks which will be involved, in deferring this matter until it can be proceeded with constitutionally on the re-assembling of Parliament.

Mr Riley:

– The money has been voted.

Mr KELLY:

– But under a direct promise.

Mr Riley:

– That will not undo what has been done.

Mr KELLY:

– This is delightful. This House did vote the money after a formal conversation between the Prime Minister, the Leader of the Opposition, and the Government Whip. At that conversation the Acting Prime Minister gave certain formal undertakings in reference to Lithgow, and he has since departed from them. After the House had granted Supply, the Acting Prime Minister broke his word, and the Chairman of the Works Committee says, “ What is the use of bothering? The money has been voted.” That is not a fair or decent way of viewing the question. There is another aspect of the matter. A great deal of the force in the advocacy of the Canberra arsenal is derived from the personality of the Director-General of Public Works. That gentleman, a friend of mine, is under the indictment at the present moment of a responsible Minister, and his fitness to occupy the position of DirectorGeneral of Public Works is to be inquired into by a Judge of the Supreme Court. That inquiry will have reference to his ordinary professional fitness for the job he holds. The matter of choosing a site for the Small Arms Factory is one in regard to which he has no particular training, and upon which he would not claim to he an expert. In fact, after having given evidence, in the first place, before the Works Committee, he was sent to India to ascertain some facts with reference to the establishment of an arsenal. That man, who was certainly not an expert in the true sense on the subject of the arrangement and organization of an arsenal, is now awaiting trial in regard to his conduct of work concerning which he is an expert. I would be the last person in the world to refer in any way, directly or indirectly, to that officer’s fitness to exercise the responsibility of Director-General of Works. But it is a most extraordinary paradox that we should place him on trial as the Director-General of Works, and, at the same time, hustle along his project for the establishment of an arsenal at Canberra without satisfactory inquiry, expert or inexpert. That procedure is farcical and deplorable, and I again ask the Treasurer to postpone the matter until the next meeting of Parliament. That will merely involve waiting until the commencement of -the next financial year, when the introduction of the first Supply Bill will enable the House to decide this question. It is merely humbugging the people of Lithgow and the people of the Commonwealth, whose concern is greater than that of the people of Lithgow, to suggest that the Committee is in a fit frame of mind to deal with the question when the anxiety of every honorable member is to catch his train. The Government will cover themselves with dishonour if, in the circumstances, before the re-assembling of Parliament, they proceed with the arsenal proposal. There is one other matter I desire to deal with, and, as it relates to the necessity for the Treasurer going a little further in a certain direction than the War Profits Act empowers him to go at the present moment, my remarks will perhaps be welcomed by him.

The theatrical firm known as J. C. Williamson Limited, which possesses the rights to a number of theatres in Australia, and whose business, for that reason, is largely in the nature of a monoply, called together its leading employees immediately after the declaration of war, and, probably quite ootid fide, informed them that in the great smash and trouble in which the war was plunging everything financial in Australia it would be necessary for them to close their theatres unless the employees would accept a reduction - of 25 per cent, in their salaries. This ap plied to all employees drawing more than £5 per week. These employees patriotically agreed to accept the reduction, in view of the importance of keeping the theatres open, and the public mind quiet, at a time when everything seemed to be falling bv the board. The cut was accepted almost in every case. But the firm’s dismal anticipations have not been realized . Honorable members will readily understand that at a time when paper money is being very widely distributed,’ and loan funds are being very freely expended, the actual small change, which makes for the fullness of theatres, has been plentiful in the land, and the theatres controlled by J. C. Williamson have never been fuller than since this war started, yet the firm has not repaid its employees that 25 per cent, deduction, which they, in a spirit of patriotism, had agreed to accept! I suggest to the Treasurer that if Williamson does not repay those employees, the firm ought not to be allowed to have the benefit of the money, which might well be regarded as a very peculiar war profit and taken by the Treasurer in toto.

It may be said by honorable members that this matter is actionable at law. It is, because there was no consideration given to these employees for the taking away of a quarter of their salaries. The employees could sue J. C. Williamson, and could undoubtedly, in law, recover the amount owing to them in this way, but the difficulty is that this firm exercises an almost terrorizing influence over its employees. One of the clauses in the contract which this firm gets from its artists reads as follows : -

The said artist shall not, within six calendar months from the termination of this agreement, appear in any theatre or hall, or at any public or private entertainment, other than those under the management of the said company, without the consent in writing of the said company.

That is a clause which makes those people, body and soul, the possession of the company for six months after the termination of their contract. I think that clause is against the public interest, and I have written to the firm expressing that view. There is neither equity, decency, nor conscience in it, and I ask the Treasurer to confer with the State Governments of Australia with a view to action being taken to have this clause deleted from J. C. Williamson’s contracts. Honorable members will readily understand that any person who signed a con-‘ tract of that kind,, especially a person who, by training and occupation, has not developed a legal bent of mind, would be very shy about pressing his or her legal rights against the firm. Some, however, of the employees have stood up to this situation, and have actually been refunded the amount of the cut without the matter getting into Court. But suppose that a person, who had no other means of livelihood, said to the employers - “ I claim to be paid the 25 per cent, reduction that I allowed you to take from me in the belief that the solvency of your firm was in danger,” and suppose the firm refused to pay the amount, then the alternative before the artist would be either .to abandon his claim or to sue for payment, knowing he could be ‘deprived of his means of livelihood for six months.

Mr Webster:

– That was the position of all the workers before the growth of unionism.

Mr KELLY:

– That question does not enter into this matter; but I think we might all try to help. It is possible that if this question were put by authority before the firm fairly and squarely, it might mend its ways, and remove the injustice which the employees are suffering. Not only are artists in Australia at the firm’s mercy, but through its agencies it exercises a considerable influence in other parts of the world; and employees may be afraid of being black-listed with other firms if they demand their rights in this salary matter. I, personally, have no feeling on the subject, except the feeling that employers in Australia ought to set a good example in connexion with the war, and if these employees, acting loyally and conscientiously, agreed with the employers at the outset of hostilities to try to tide the firm over a difficult period, and that agreement was afterwards found to be based on a misconception of the actual financial position, then I think the employers should recoup the amount taken from the employees. If the firm will not do that, I think it is the duty of the Treasurer to step in and claim the money for the Commonwealth. I assure honorable members that the facts are as I have stated them, and have not been overcoloured in the slightest degree. In the interests of those employees, and as an example to other employers, I ask the Treasurer to take stringent action in the direction I have indicated.

Mr MATHEWS:
Melbourne Ports

– I understand that what has been done makes it legal for the Treasurer to collect revenue under the war profitstaxation measure during the current year. I have already said that the proposal to take 50 per cent, will only aggravate the evil so far as the public are concerned. The only result can be that next year the cormorants will grasp even more. It would be much better to make them understand that 50 per cent, will be collected the first year and 100 per cent, the next year, thus conveying to them that they will not be allowed to exploit the public above a normal profit. It needs no address on economics to show that high profits mean high prices.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– What effect would your proposal have on industries t

Mr MATHEWS:

– I think it would have a good effect, because it would allow us to carry on our industries, commerce, and other business under normal conditions.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– Men engaged in industries have had to invest in special machinery, and so forth, in order to supply the goods.

Mr MATHEWS:

– I should allow such men normal profit on their outlay; my only desire is to prevent the exploiting of the public above a certain amount. I am satisfied that if the British Government had fixed 15 per cent, as the highest fair profit, no one would have made more than 15 per cent.; and it would only be common sense to adopt that method here. The legal profit could be made so much above pre-war profits, with some arrangement by which those making less profit could be put on an equality. For instance, if the pre-war profit was 8 per cent, we might permit 10 per cent to 12 per cent., and certainly I regard the latter as a very fair profit indeed. If we take 50 per cent, of the war profits all through, ai man who earns 70 per cent, and is allowed to retain 25 per cent, will take good care next year to make 140 per cent.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– There is something in the argument that we cannot prevent people passing on the original cost.

Mr MATHEWS:

– Men do not make profits for the fun of making them, but for the sake of what they gain ; and if we can stop the profits they will discontinue trying to make any. There are, of course, many people in the community who are losing in consequence of the war, and to allow big war profits is a manifest injustice to them, in view of the increased cost of living.

Mr BOYD:
Henty

.- There is a proposal to close’ up certain post offices in the city and elsewhere. At Menzies’ Hotel there has been a post and telegraph office for a number of years, and I believe it pays very well indeed. There is also a post office at the Law Courts, in Lonsdale-street, and although I do not know the revenue, I should say it does a considerable amount of business connected with the law. These, I understand, are two of the offices that it is suggested shall be closed. The post office at Menzies’ is not only for the convenience of those who live in the hotel, but is used by business people in the locality. These people, if the hotel office be closed, will have to go either to the Stock Exchange, in Collinsstreet, the General Post Office, in Elizabethstreet, or the Rialto. Much inconvenience would be caused if either of the offices I have mentioned were closed, and unless the Postmaster-General has some definite scheme with regard to the amalgamation of offices, and the reduction in the number of officers, he would be better serving the public by allowing these offices I have mentioned to remain.

Mr WISE:
Gippsland

.- Associated with retrenchment in the Postal

Department there is an official idea’ which I regard as very dangerous. When mails reach country railway stations in the evening, some one is sent from the post-office to see that they are safely conveyed to the latter. These mails are made up that night in order to catch the out-going district mails, which are despatched, possibly, at 7 o’clock the next morning. There is, I know, a proposal, which is made in order to save overtime, that, instead of sending some one to fetch the mails from the railway station to the post-offices, where they are sorted, the mail-bags shall remain in the stations overnight when they arrive after halfpast 8 o’clock. This, as I say, I regard as very dangerous. The mail-bags will be left in the charge of the stationmaster, and in nineteen cases out of twenty will be stored in a wooden building, leaving them open to all the risks of tampering and theft. In many cases, the proposed new arrangement will result in these mails missing the early district mails on the following morning, and thus cause serious delay and great inconvenience in places where, perhaps, there is no delivery more than two or three times a week. I urge the Postmaster-General to seriously consider all the circumstances before the new arrangement is carried into effect.

Mr WEBSTER:
PostmasterGeneral · Gwydir · ALP

– The suggestion for the closing of certain post-offices originated in an investigation that I caused to be made in the interests of economy. I desired to ascertain whether we could legitimately close certain offices that were adjacent to other offices, and which were, perhaps, only causing additional expense, without really adding to the convenience of the public. I may say that only the. other day I received a large petition in favour of retaining the post and telegraph office at Menzies’ Hotel, but inquiry has shown that that petition did not represent the facts as they should have been represented if they were intended as a guide to me. A large postoffice has been erected in .Spencer-street to meet, in many ways, the convenience of the public. Amongst the facilities there provided are post and telegraph offices; and if the Government spend a large sum in erecting a building of this character, within reach of numbers of people, we expect their business to be done in that building. The idea, therefore, is to do away with superfluous offices with a view to economy and efficiency; and the investigations made have resulted in a report which favours the closing of the offices mentioned, and some other offices in this State of Victoria, and elsewhere. However, the matter is not yet finalized. Only to-day I received a report from the inspector whom I had instructed to make inquiries, and that report I shall look into and consider before any definite step is taken. As to the question raised by the honorable member for Gippsland, I can inform that honorable member that in the Postal Department, in some directions, there is considerable expenditure for very small return. What I mean is that postal officials have tobe kept on duty for the purpose of receiving small mails, such as the honorable member has described, and delivering them at the post-office. This involves heavy expense out of all proportion, in many cases, to the earnings of the officesconcerned.. This, along with a number of other important points, has been considered in conference between the Railway authorities and myself, when dealing generally with postal delivery concerns. When the subject of railway mails comes before the Inter-State Commission, as it will on the14th July, all these points will fee decidedand probably put on a new basis. At present the details, apart from the rates themselves, are practically agreed on between the Railway authorities and myself, and the honorable member may expect quite a different systemwhen the negotiations have been concluded.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

.- I am sorry the Minister for the Navy is not present, because I desire to suggest that our rifle clubs should be better utilized in view of the war. These riflemen are really the only reserves this country has.

Mr Page:

– What is the use of rifle clubs without rifles?

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– It is true that in a time of war the authorities have disarmed their only reserves.

Mr Page:

– And put the rifles into hands where they will be of better use.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– If these organizations had been utilized beforehand, and the experts connected with them engaged to teach our recruits the use of the modern rifle, much good would have been done. I have in my hand a letter from a young fellow at the front, who mentions that out of 100 men of his company who were put through a musketry test only five passed ; and he further says that men had to be taken out of the first trenches to be taught how to handle a rifle.

Mr Page:

– Do you believe that 95 per cent. of those men were ineffective?

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– I believe the letter.

Mr Page:

– I do not.

Mr.RODGERS.- The statement I have quoted is from a young fellow now atthe front.

Mr Webster:

– It wasprobably a new rifle, which the man had never seen before.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– What I have to suggest is that a few short-service rifles fee placed at the disposal of the clubs in order that the keen enthusiasm connected therewith may be used in the training of young men who are at present unable to join the Forces. The rifle clubs represent an old and effective organization which has been carried on for years past, practically at the cost of the members. The 1st July is the commencement of the rifle club year, and I earnestly urge the Government to make more use of these men. In camp, rifle practice is practically a negligible quantity. Group shooting does not test the individual, and there is no assurance that a man can use a modern rifle. The work, I suggest, could be carried out gratuitously by experts, and I am sure would prove of the greatest advantage.

Mr BOYD:
Henty

.-Have the Government seen the following cablegram in to-night’s Herald: - “ I have stood more than any other man for compulsory service, because there is no other’ way whereby a free people can strike a blow for liberty,” declared Mr, W. M. Hughes, Prime Minister Jot Australia, in addressing 3,000 Anzacs at the Weymouth Camp yesterday.

Seeing that the view of the Prime Minister has now been expressed, the Government need not wait to take into consideration what their action shall be on a matter of such urgent importance.

Mr HIGGS:
Treasurer · Capricornia · ALP

from the honorable member for Wentworth, the honorable member for Melbourne, and others, and during the recess I shall take them into consideration, and see what can be done.

Mr Burns:

– What about the suggestions of the honorable member for Macquarie ?

Mr HIGGS:

– The honorable member’s suggestions will also be taken into consideration.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Motion (by Mr. Higgs) agreed to -

That there be granted to His Majesty to the service of the year 1916-17, for the purposes of Additions, New Works, Buildings, &c., a sum not exceding £662,085.

Resolutions reported.

Standing Orders suspended, and resolutions adopted.

Resolutions of Ways and Means covering resolutions of Supply adopted.

Ordered -

That Mr. Higgs and Mr. Tudor do prepare and bring in Bills to carry out the foregoing resolutions.

page 8388

SUPPLY BILL (No. 1) 1916-17

Bill presented by Mr. Higgs, and passed through all its stages without amendment.

page 8388

SUPPLY (WORKS AND BUILDINGS) BILL (No. 1) 1916-17

Bill presented by Mr. Higgs, and passed through all its stages without amendment.

page 8388

LEAVE OF ABSENCE

Motions (by Mr. Tudor) agreed to -

That leave of absence for the remainder of the session be given to the honorable member for Corio absent on military service with the Australian Expeditionary Forces.

That leave of absence be granted to every member of the House of Representatives from the determination of this sitting of the House to the date of its next sitting.

page 8388

SPECIAL ADJOURNMENT

Motion(by Mr. Tudor) agreed to -

That the House, at its rising, adjourn until 3 p.m. on a day to be fixed by Mr. Speaker, which day of meeting shall be notified by Mr. Speaker to each member by telegram or letter.

page 8388

AUSTRALIAN SOLDIERS’ REPATRIATION FUND BILL

Mr. SPEAKER reported the receipt of a message from the Senate notifying that the amendments made by the House of Representatives had been agreed to.

page 8388

INVALID AND OLD-AGE PENSIONS APPROPRIATION BILL

Bill returned from the Senate without amendment.

page 8388

WAR PRECAUTIONS BILL (No. 4)

Mr. SPEAKER reported the receipt of a message from the Senate notifying that the amendments made by the House of Representatives had been agreed to.

Sitting suspended from 5.26 to 9.30 p.m.

page 8388

SUPPLY BILL (No. 1) 1916-17

Bill returned from the Senate without request.

page 8388

SUPPLY (WORKS AND BUILDINGS) BILL (No. 1) 1916-17

Bill returned from the Senate without amendment.

page 8388

ADJOURNMENT

Potatoes Supplied to Soldiers - Arrestsunderthe War precautions Act - Export of Butter - Case of Captain Manning - Old-age Pensions Tariff Amendment.

Motion (by Mr. Tudor) proposed -

That the House do now adjourn.

Mr ATKINSON:
Wilmot

.- A statement has been brought under my notice that a contractor for military food supplies recently purchased some potatoes, which other firms contracting for the transports would not accept, owing to their being affected with Irish blight, and that those potatoes have been sent to one of the camps near Melbourne. Goods that are not wholesome enough for soldiers on transports are not good enough for soldiers in camp. I hope the Minister will look into this matter, and that, if the statement is found to be correct, an example of the offending contractor will be made.

Mr MATHEWS:
Melbourne Ports

– Do not the Government think it would be wise to review all the sentences of imprisonment passed under the War Precautions Act? The Act is being made ridiculous by the present method of administration. Men are imprisoned for making ridiculous statements. It was never intended that the War Precautions Act should be operated to imprison men for doing something foolish, but only for doing something dangerous. The Ministry ought to constitute themselves a Court of Review in this matter, because I regard these sentences as being a discredit to Australia and to the Labour party.

Mr SINCLAIR:
Moreton

.- I would urge the Minister of Trade and Customs to relax the embargo on the export of butter. In Queensland at the present time there are about 13,000 boxes of second and third grade butter, which is being kept in cold storage at the expense of the producers. There is no market for the butter in Queensland, but its intrinsic value, if exported, would be about £30,000.- The Minister will realize the unfairness of compelling the butter to be kept in cold storage at the expense of the producers, who are in an awkward predicament, as the State Government have not permitted exports to other States, so that they have not the advantage of even the Victorian market. If the Government are anxious to provide against a scarcity during the winter - and I do not think that is likely to occur - they might come to the rescue of the owners of the butter by purchasing and supplying it to other parts of the Commonwealth.

Mr Tudor:

– They have been sending butter to Victoria for weeks past; and if the State Government will not allow butter to be exported to other States, I will not consent to the commodity being sent overseas.

Mr SINCLAIR:

– I have been told that until recently the Government of Queensland were prepared to ship butter to Victoria on condition that they acquired the butter, and made any profit which resulted from its export. It is quite evident, from that fact, that the State Government are not putting any embargo on the Inter-State trade because of any need for the butter in Queensland, but rather because they want to prevent the farmer getting the advantage of the Victorian price, which is higher than that fixed by the Queensland Commodities Board. There is a surplus of 2,000 or 3,000 boxes per week of inferior butter, which is not likely to obtain a market in Australia during the winter. The Queensland producer is handicapped also by the Victorian merchants, who, when they find that there is an embargo on export, refuse, to take up the documents for butter sent to them from Queensland, and it is thrown back on the consignor.

Mr Mathews:

– They expect to get the butter cheaper.

Mr SINCLAIR:

– That is a trade practice for which the Victorian merchants have been famed for a consider-‘ able time. The Minister will probably remember a case that happened a couple of months ago, when 1,000 boxes of butter were shipped to Victoria. It was refused by the consignee, who offered a lower price. The consignor was at the mercy of the consignee, and had to sell at a cheap rate.

Mr Mathews:

– That practice is not peculiar to Victoria. .

Mr SINCLAIR:

– I do not suppose it is; but I think the Victorian merchant takes the palm for sharp practices of that kind. I hope the Minister will go carefully into this matter, and that if he cannot come to a decision by himself, he will utilize the services of the Prices Adjustment Board, who might be asked to inquire as to whether it is reasonable to expect the farmers of Queensland to carry a load for the rest of Australia by paying storage on surplus butter for month after month, to provide against a possible shortage in the southern States. The Minister may refer to importations from New Zealand during the last week or two.

Mr Tudor:

– The New Zealand Government have prohibited further export.

Mr SINCLAIR:

– Even so; the butter of which I am speaking is an inferior article, but it would bring from 130s. to 140s. on the London market, and it will not be required for Australian consumption unless something unforeseen occurs.

Mr HANNAN:
Fawkner

.- I desire to bring before the House the case of Captain Manning, who was for some time connected with the transport service, but was dismissed after an investigation at which he was not allowed to appear. Captain Manning held the rank of a captain in the employ of a number of Australian steam-ship companies. At a later stage he entered the service of the Merchant ;Service Guild as an officer. While holding that position he applied successfully for admission into, the service of the Navy Office. He was stationed at the Naval Depot, Port Melbourne, and had certain duties and responsibilities in connexion with the manning of the different transports. Later he was appointed captain of one of the transports. As a result of certain correspondence which passed between him and the ship’s provedor, a man named Berg, a complaint was lodged against him. He was arrested by the Navy Department, and later dismissed from the service. A number of charges were laid against Captain Manning, namely, that he was of German descent; that the man Berg, with whom he corresponded at Port Adelaide, was also of German descent; and that while Manning was in the employ of the Commonwealth Government, received a salary as an officer of the Merchant Service Guild. I believe that a full inquiry was held by the Naval Board into those charges.’ On making investigations at the .Naval Department, on behalf of Captain Manning, I ascertained that the reason for his dismissal was a letter sent by him to two or three other captains of transports, and a further letter sent to Berg. The latter contained a threat that if the other captains did not deal with Berg, Captain Manning would exercise his authority with the Navy Department to see that they were dealt with. I believe that it was on that letter that the Department decided to dispense with the services of Captain Manning. When the Board dealt with the man’s case, evidence was placed before them that he was of German descent. That he denies. There is a doubt as to his actual birthplace, but he has made a sworn declaration that his father was an Irishman and his mother a Dane, and that he believes he was born at sea. Practically ever since his arrival in Australia he has been a member of a Swedish club. When travelling from England to Australia some years ago he shipped under the assumed name of Olaf Skold for a reason which many shipping men have. At a later date he resumed his proper name of Manning. He has held responsible positions on the coast, in the employment of many companies and the Merchant Service Guild, and is one of the few captains in Australia who have a certificateexempting him from the necessity of obtaining the assistance of a pilot when entering an Australian port. It was because of the man’s excellent credentials that he received his appointment in the Navy Department. I submitted to the Department a sworn declaration by Manning that he was not of Germandescent, and also declarations by officers of the Merchant Service Guild that he had not received any payment from the Guild while in the employ of the Commonwealth Government. In regard, to the third charge, Berg submitted a sworn declaration that he was not a German,, and he stated the place of his birth. When Captain Manning was tried by the Navy Board those statements were produced; and there is no doubt that an allegation against an accused person that he bears the taint of Germanism will, if not actually prejudice his case, at any rate tend not to improve his chance of obtaining justice. On placing before the Navy authorities the information at my disposal, I was informed that Captain Manning had absolutely no authority to interfere in the matter of the victualling of the ships. On the other hand, Captain Manning assured me that he had definite instructions from Captain Richardson to interest himself in that matter, because there is a system in operation whereby, for carrying certain products, some officers or others connected with the vessels make a private profit for themselves, as against the company whose servants they are. Captain Manning told: me that he had specific instructions to interest himself in that matter, and that in one or two cases his interest had been of distinct advantage to the Navy Office. I was informed that he had no instructions. of the kind, and probably the same statement was placed before the Navy Board, and, naturally, the members of the Board might ask themselves why this man interested himself in a matter which did not concern him. That question was put to me, but I was in possession of the information that he had received definite instructions from Captain Richardson. He was directly responsible to Captain Richardson, who, in return, is responsible to the Navy Board I understand that when the Navy Board sat to deal with the case, Captain Richardson was not called. Manning, on his arrest, had been sent to the Naval Depot at Port Melbourne, and instructed not to leave its precincts. I am not in a position to say whether the charges against him are correct or not, but I do say that any man holding a responsible position who is arrested, and against whom charges are made, should have the right of appearing before those who are trying him and of denying the charges. He did not receive that consideration, and I have done everything possible to induce the administration to have the matter reconsidered. So far I have failed. Captain Manning is in Sydney at the present time assisting in the Merchant Service Guild case before the Arbitration Court. Prior to leaving he asked me to bring the matter before the House. He feels that a great injustice has been done to him, and that his reputation as a citizen is under a cloud. He desires the fullest publicity, and is certain that if an inquiry were held he could clear his character. I merely mention the matter at the special request of this gentleman, without expressing any opinion whatever on the merits of the case. I believe that something should be done to give this man an opportunity to prove his innocence.

Mr J H CATTS:
Cook

.- Will the Minister of Trade and Customs ask his colleagues, when they are considering the business to be transacted when we resume, to bear in mind the promise made by the Labour party at the last election, that, owing to the high cost of living, an “ increase of something like 2s. 6d. per week will be made in the oldage pensions. It is now twelve months since that election’, and we are told by the Treasurer that’ there is no financial stringency or difficulty now. We have increased to a considerable extent the pensions for wounded soldiers, mainly on account of the increased cost of living; and surely old-age pensioners are entitled to some consideration. I made the promise, to which I have referred, in my own electorate; and I am now being asked by pensioners when the party are going to redeem it.

Mr STUMM:
Lilley

.- I indorse what has been said by the honorable member for Moreton on the butter question. There are several factories in my electorate, and they are handicapped by the restrictions placed on them by the Federal and State authorities; but if action is taken on the lines that have been suggested, a way will be found out of our difficulties. I rose mainly to express a hope that when the House resumes an opportunity will be afforded to carry into effect the policy of Protection indorsed at the last general election. We were elected to carry out that policy, and it should be delayed no longer. The war must result in a great change in our commercial, social, and financial standards ; and while it is only right that we should give paramount consideration to the war and every assistance in achieving victory, it is also necessary to provide for its results. One way to do that is to deal’ effectively with the fiscal question, and give the country a truly Protective Tariff.

Mr TUDOR:
Minister of Trade and Customs · Yarra · ALP

– The several matters mentioned by the honorable member for Wilmot, the honorable member for Fawkner, and the honorable member for Melbourne Ports, I shall bring under the notice of the respective Ministers who have control of such concerns. The administration of the War Precautions Act, I understand, is a matter for the Law Department, and, unfortunately, the AttorneyGeneral, through ill-health, has not been able to be with us through these brief sittings.

Mr Hannan:

– Will you grant an inquiry into the case to which I referred ?

Mr TUDOR:

– I cannot do that, because it is not in my Department, but I shall bring .it under the notice of - the Minister for the Navy. The suggested increase in the old-age pensions is a matter for the Treasury.

Mr J H Catts:

– It is a matter for the Government.

Mr TUDOR:

– Primarily, for the Treasurer, who has to find the funds. The increase made last night in the pensions for soldiers, their widows and children and other dependants, will mean millions per annum, and this will go a long way to prevent any increase in old-age pensions, or in providing pensions for other widows or orphans. The honorable member for Moreton, and the honorable member for Lilley, have alluded to the butter question, and I should like to refer them to a paragraph in the commercial column of the Argus to-day. Last Saturday this newspaper stated that butter production was decreasing in Queensland and New South Wales, and to-day, in their commercial column, they have the following paragraph : -

A humorously transparent attempt to manipulate the butter market is being made. Speculators, having purchased supplies in the northern States, are anxious to. “unload” in Melbourne.

The Victorian production at present is equal to more than half the requirements of the market.

I do not think it amounts to quite half, according to the figures which I have. The last few lines of the paragraph are : -

Taking into consideration the reserves in Sydney and Brisbane, and making due allowance for the contraction of the Gippsland production, an advance in prices at the moment does not appear to be entirely in the interests of producers.

I am reading from the Argus, and not from a Labour paper.

Mr Sinclair:

– Would any merchant buy butter in Queensland at the present time?

Mr TUDOR:

– The market, here, in Melbourne, is still on the basis of 154s. per cwt. wholesale; and it has been that for about six weeks or two months, and the price in Melbourne governs the price in three other States. I have the figures for the last four weeks, and every week shows a decrease in production in every State. I regret very much that we are not producing a larger proportion of choice quality butter, as we did some few years ago. Of our production then, over 70 per cent. was first grade or choicest. In some States in Australia that is not the case to-day. As to the remedy, some say that there should be compulsory cream grading. I believe that would be very beneficial to the quality. When it is shown that there is a surplus of butter in Australia for Australian needs I shall, as I have done on several occasions since the 1st December last, when the embargo was imposed, relax the embargo and allow portion to be exported. But I point out that on the very day on which the deputation from Queensland asked for the relaxation of the embargo and for permission to export 500 tons of butter the price was increased by1d. per lb. There were at the time 500 tons in store, according to the figures supplied by the honorable member for Moreton tonight; there are only 325 tons there to-day. I know that if there is a surplus of butter the dairymen are entitled to expect that some should be exported, but every time I have given permission to export the price has risen. To-day, people are selling first-class butter in Melbourne at14s. per cwt. above what they would receive if they exported it.

Mr Sinclair:

– The price of butter in Queenslandis fixed by a Board. The butter people do not control it.

Mr TUDOR:

– In Victoria the price is fixed by one man ; the same thing applies in Sydney; while I believe one man has a very big say in fixing the price in Brisbane.

Mr Sinclair:

– No; in Queensland the price is fixed by a Board.

Mr TUDOR:

– The honorable member for Moreton, and, I believe, the honorable member for Gippsland, know that one man fixes the price in Melbourne. It is not wise to relax the embargo while we have not in hand more than ten days’ supply of butter for the Australian people. I am well aware that every day production is going on, and in all probability the margin may be enough to see us through ; but no one can tell what the season is likely to be between now and the coming spring. I would rejoice if Australia produced enough butter to allow of exportation, but while we have millions of tons of other commodities which we are anxious to export, it would be folly to send away a few tons of an article we may need in Australia in a little while.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

House adjourned at 10.9 p.m.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 23 May 1916, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1916/19160523_reps_6_79/>.

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