House of Representatives
17 May 1916

6^th Parliament · 1^st Session

PETITIONS
QUESTION
- EMBARGO ON COAL EXPORTATION
QUESTION
- LIVERPOOL CAMP RIOT
QUESTION
- EXPORT OF BUTTER
PERSONAL EXPLANATION
QUESTION
- REFERENDUM ON CONSCRIPTION
QUESTION
- WAR PROFITS TAXATION
QUESTION
- LITHGOW SMALL ARMS FACTORY
QUESTION
- HENDERSON NAVAL BASE
QUESTION
- OLD-AGE PENSIONS
QUESTION
- INTER-STATE PRODUCE: INSPECTION
QUESTION
- CITIZEN FORCES : SERVICE ABROAD
QUESTION
- RECIPROCITY: CANADA AND NEW ZEALAND
QUESTION
- AUSTRALIAN IMPERIAL FORCES: ALLOWANCE
QUESTION
- NOTE ISSUE
QUESTION
- PRICE OF SUGAR
PAPERS
WAR-TIME PROFITS TAX ASSESSMENT BILL
- Second Reading
BUDGET (1915-16)
BILLS FROM THE SENATE
WAR LOAN ACTS AMENDMENT BILL
WAR TIME PROFITS TAX BILL
PAPER

Mr. Speaker took the chair at 3 p.m., and read prayers.

page 7921

PETITIONS

Mr. WEST presented a petition from the Anti- Vaccination Council of Victoria praying the House to take into consideration the urgent necessity for abolishing the practice of vaccinating and innoculating soldiers.

Petition received and read.

Mr SPEAKER:

– The other day, when a petition was presented, I pointed out that it would he as well for honorable members to allow me first to peruse petitions they desired to present. I have no wish to prevent any petition being read, because members should know what is in the minds of certain people, but this petition is on the borderline as to whether it is in order or not.

Mr. WATT, on behalf of Mr. Wise, presented a petition promoted by the Australian Natives Association and the Compulsory Service League, and signed by 70,721 electors of Victoria, praying the House to provide for compulsory military service duringthe war.

Petition received and read.

page 7921

QUESTION

EMBARGO ON COAL EXPORTATION

Mr CHARLTON:
HUNTER, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I ask the Minister of Trade and Customs whether it is a fact, as reported in the press, that three or four ships are about to leave Australia in ballast, because the owners have been unable to obtain from his Department permits to load coal? If it is a fact, will the Minister give further consideration to the matter in order to preserve the coal industry ?

Mr TUDOR:
Minister for Trade and Customs · YARRA, VICTORIA · ALP

– I have not had the opportunity of verifying the accuracy of the statement in the press. Our difficulty lies in the fact that if we compel British or allied vessels to carry wheat, and allow neutral vessels to carry coal, which is a much more profitable cargo, we are penalizing our own people. If we allow shipowners to carry coal it will be good-bye to our export of wheat.

Mr Charlton:

– We cannot force any vessel to carry wheat.

Mr TUDOR:

– We cannot force a neutral vessel to take any cargo except what its owners choose to carry. The owners of neutral vessels probably find greater profit in leaving Australia in ballast, and picking up nitrates at a South American port, or timber at Puget Sound, than in carrying wheat from Australia.

Mr Burchell:

– But is not the Minister preventing them from carrying coal?

Mr TUDOR:

– If we allow them to carry coal, we shall not get any boats to carry our wheat.

page 7921

QUESTION

LIVERPOOL CAMP RIOT

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Will the Minister representing the Minister of Defence lay on the table of the Library’ all papers relating to the case of Staff

Sergeant-Major Tanner, who is undergoing sentence as a result of a court martial in connexion with the Liverpool Camp riot?

Mr JENSEN:
Minister for the Navy · BASS, TASMANIA · ALP

– I have no objection to complying with the request.

page 7922

QUESTION

EXPORT OF BUTTER

Mr FINLAYSON:
BRISBANE, QUEENSLAND

– Will the Minister of Trade and Customs say whether any circumstances have arisen since last week in connexion with the butter trade which will allow him to lift the embargo on the export of butter?

Mr TUDOR:
ALP

– In no respect have the circumstances altered. I may add that on the day that the Queensland merchants applied to be allowed to send butter away the price was raised1d. per lb. in that State.

page 7922

PERSONAL EXPLANATION

Mr FOWLER:
PERTH, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

– I rise to make a personal explanation. In the Age of Saturday appeared the following report, headed -

“A SEPARATE PEACE.”

” A Hellish Suggestion.”

In the Senate yesterday Senator Long (T.) asked the Acting Prime Minister whether he had noted that when n question was asked in the Houao of Representatives on Wednesday as to whether Germany had ever approached Australia for a separate peace, Mr. Fowler had asked, “Did Australia consult Germany!” “ Is it competent for the Government,” said Senator Long, “ to take action against an individual making such a hellish suggestion?” (Hear, hear.)

The Acting Paras Minister. - The effect of the statement on the public is to be gauged by the source from which it emanated. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) I do not think that such a statement is likely to cause perturbation in the public mind.

Senator Needham (W.A.). Troat it with the supreme contempt it deserves. (Hear, hear.)

HENDERSON NAVAL BASE

Mr BURCHELL:

asked the Minister of Home Affairs, upon notice -

Whether the land resumptions in connexion with the Henderson Naval Base have yet been completed ; if not, what is the area actually resumed and the amount paid in settlement of claims thereon, also the area still waiting settlement and the amount claimed thereon ?

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
Minister for Home Affairs · DARWIN, TASMANIA · ALP

– T - The answer is as follows: - lt is not proposed to acquire, at present any additional private lands; certain Crown lands necessary in connexion with the Base will be acquired in the near future.

Area required, approximately, 5,800 acres.
Total amount claimed, £168,153.
Total number of claims, 418.
Number of claims settled, 109.
Amount claimed under (d), £47,148.
Amount of settlement under (d), £27,066.
Savings under (d), (e), and (f), £20,082.
Area still awaiting settlement, 5,125 acres.
Number of claims awaiting settlement or disputed, 309.
Amount claimed on area still awaiting settlement, £121,005.

page 7923

QUESTION

OLD-AGE PENSIONS

Mr BURCHELL:

asked the Treasurer, upon notice -

Whether the Government are prepared to amend the Old-age and Invalid Pensions Act this session to give effect to the promise of the Treasurer, given last November, viz., that pensioners resident in State institutions should receive the balance of pension after claims of the State institution had been satisfied?

Mr HIGGS:
ALP

– This matter is under consideration.

page 7923

QUESTION

INTER-STATE PRODUCE: INSPECTION

Mr ATKINSON:
WILMOT, TASMANIA

asked the Minister of Trade and Customs, upon notice -

Whether the Government intend to take immediate or any steps to give effect to the motion passed in this House last year - that the inspection of produce passing from State to State should be taken over by the Commonwealth ?

Mr TUDOR:
ALP

– This question will he further considered after the termination of the war.

page 7923

QUESTION

CITIZEN FORCES : SERVICE ABROAD

Mr FINLAYSON:

asked the Minister for the Navy, upon notice -

Whether the services of Australian Citizen Forces have been offered to the Imperial Government for garrison duty in India, China, and other places, to relieve Imperial troops now stationed there for service at the front?
Whether the Minister of Defence has received any offers of service from members of the Citizen Forces in this direction?
Is the Minister of Defence prepared to give favorable consideration to the matter?

Mr JENSEN:
ALP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

No.
No.
All Australian troops are offered to the Imperial Government for use in whatever direction their services can best be utilized at the discretion of the Imperial Government.

page 7923

QUESTION

RECIPROCITY: CANADA AND NEW ZEALAND

Mr FINLAYSON:

asked the Minister of Trade and Customs, upon notice -

Whether any progress can be reported in the negotiations between the Commonwealth Government and the Governments of Canada and New Zealand in regard to reciprocal Tariff arrangements ?
Whether negotiations have been suspended; and, if so, for what reason and for what period?

Mr TUDOR:
ALP

– Negotiations with the Dominions mentioned by the honorable member were suspended shortly after the outbreak of the war, and it is unlikely that they will be resumed until the war terminates.

page 7923

QUESTION

AUSTRALIAN IMPERIAL FORCES: ALLOWANCE

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

asked the Minister for the Navy, upon notice -

Whether the Government will grant separation allowance to the wives of members of the Australian Imperial Force, where the wives are temporarily absent from Australia ?

Mr JENSEN:
ALP

– The answer to the honorable member’s question is as follows : -

Separation allowance was approved in order that dependants of soldiers who were receiving less than 8s. per diem, and were resident within the Commonwealth, might, during the service of the soldier, lire in relatively the same degree of comfort as prior to the enlistment of the soldier.

Residence within the Commonwealth was an essential factor when the allowance was granted, but recently payments have been extended to wives and families of soldiers resident in New Zealand, under reciprocal arrangements with the Dominion Government.

Absentees, even though temporarily absent, are not eligible to receive the allowance, nor is it considered that there is justification for the extension of the payment to those with means sufficient to leave the Commonwealth.

page 7923

QUESTION

NOTE ISSUE

Sir JOHN FORREST:
SWAN, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

asked the Treasurer, upon notice -

How has the £43,000,000 raised from the note fund issue been expended, and what are the details of expenditure?
How much is held in gold? and
What securities do the Treasury hold for the balance?

Mr HIGGS:
ALP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

page 7925

QUESTION

PRICE OF SUGAR

Mr CORSER:
WIDE BAY, QUEENSLAND

asked the Treasurer, upon notice -

What was the estimated tonnage of Australian sugar held on the day the price was raised from Twenty-five pounds ten shillings (£25 10s.) to Twenty-nine pounds five shillings (£295s.) per ton?

Mr HIGGS:
ALP

– The answer to the honorable member’s question is as follows: -

It was estimated that stocks of Australian sugar would last till 12th February, but the demand, especially from jam manufacturers, continued to increase, so that it became necessary to refine imported sugar, and prices were raised on 17th January, 1916, to cover extra cost and duty. The actual tonnage held on that particular day is not on record.

page 7925

PAPERS

The following papers were presented : -

Audit Act -

Finance 1914-15- The Treasurer’s Statement of Receipts and Expenditure during the year ended 30th June, 1915, accompanied by the Report of the AuditorGeneral.

Death and Invalidity in the Commonwealth - Committee concerning causes of - Preliminary Report.

Death and Invalidity in the Commonwealth - Committee concerning causes of - Reports on -

Risks of Middle Age.

Typhoid Fever.

Ordered to be printed.

Arsenal Committee - Extracts from Report upon Visit to India, 1915.

Baralong - Further correspondence with the German Government respecting the Incidents alleged to have attended the sinking of a German submarine and its crew by His Majesty’s Auxiliary Cruiser Baralong on 19th August, 1915.

Chaplains - Applications by the Anglican Chaplain-General for the appointment of additional Chaplains for Transports, and correspondence in connexion therewith.

Cordite Factory - Extracts from the Annual Report of the Manager for -

Year ended 30th June, 1914.

Year ended 30th June, 1915.

Customs Act -

Regulation Amended (Provisional) - Statu tory Rules 1915, No. 247.

Proclamations Prohibiting Exportation (except under certain conditions) of -

Gold Jewellery of a quality standard of 9 carat and over (dated 10th May, 1916).

Fruit, fresh, dried, or preserved in any way, and Nuts used as Fruit (dated 10th May, 1916).

Harness, Saddlery, and Leather Accoutrements Factory - Report for -

Year ended 30th June, 1914.

Year ended 30th June, 1915.

Lands Acquisition Act - Land acquired under, at -

Scone, New South Wales - For Defence purposes.

Naval Defence Act - Regulations Amended - Statutory Rules 1916, No. 78.

Public Service Act - Promotions of - J. H. Moore, as Clerk, 4th Class, Crown Solicitor’s Office.

page 7925

WAR-TIME PROFITS TAX ASSESSMENT BILL

Bill presented, and (on motion by Mr.

Higgs) read a first time.

Second Reading

Mr HIGGS:
Treasurer · Capricornia · ALP

.- I shall be glad if honorable members will permit me to make my second-reading speech now. The debate can then be adjourned, and we may proceed to the further consideration of the Budget. The commercial community are asking for a pronouncement on this question, and I shall be very glad if honorable members raise no objections to the request I have made. I shall not occupy much time in endeavouring to explain the principles of the measure.

Leave granted.

Mr HIGGS:

– I move-

That this Bill be now read a second time.

Mr HIGGS:

– I am quite in agreement with the honorable member. Owing to the limited powers possessed by the Commonwealth Parliament nearly every Act passed by this Legislature has given a great deal of work to members of his profession. This Bill follows very closely upon the lines of the Act passed by the Imperial Government with certain important amendments. With regard to the proposed exemption of offices or employments and certain professions, it is considered that if a medical man earns high fees during the period of the war, his increased revenue will have been obtained largely by the expenditure of his vital forces, and, therefore, he should not be called upon to pay war-time profits, as he is provided for by the Income Tax Act.

Mr Sampson:

– Will not that argument apply also to businesses generally ?

Mr HIGGS:

– No, because in the case of ordinary businesses increased profits will not be obtained by the expenditure of vital forces, as in the case of professional men such as doctors, but will result from the increased prices of commodities. It is also provided that the profits arising from any business shall be separately determined for the purpose of the Act. That is to say, if a person, firm, or company is carrying on several businesses, the profits of one business cannot be set off against the losses of another, but a person, firm, or company may set its losses against its profits in any accounting period after the 30th June, 1915. Thus, if a taxpayer is called upon to pay a war-time profits tax during 1916, or in any accounting period thereafter, and if the war should unhappily last until 1917, and if he made a loss in the latter part of the financial year ending June, 1917, he would be able to set this loss against the war-time profits upon which he had paid -taxation in the previous accounting period. We may say, therefore, that what a man will pay under this Bill during the war-time period will be decided by the profits he makes over the whole period. Modifications in the provisions of the Act are to be allowed in cases where, in the opinion of the Commissioner, this may be advisable. For instance, this would apply where there has been a change in the constitution of a partnership ; the postponement or suspension, as a consequence of the present war, of renewals or repairs; or exceptional depreciation or obsolescence of assets employed in the business due to the war. By the way, I observe that, at the annual meeting of the Associated Chambers of Commerce of Australia, held in Brisbane the other day, the following resolution was adopted : - .

That, while accepting the principle of the tax on excess war profits, this gathering of business representatives from all parts of the Commonwealth expresses the strong conviction that in the imposition of the proposed tax on war profits a manifest injustice will be wrought (1) unless due regard is paid to the prospective loss upon the termination of the war owing to the anticipated shrinkage in values of stock and plant; and (2) unless some equitable provision is made to meet the caBe of British companies whose Australian trading profits are also subject to taxation of similar character in Great Britain.

This provision, “ exceptional depreciation or obsolescence of assets employed in the business due to the war,” may meet that request to some extent; but it will not meet a case where the stock of a firm acquires an enhanced value during the war, and at the end of the war returns to its pre-war level. In such a case, the taxpayer would not be entitled to obtain relief by applying to the Commissioner. It may, however, meet the case of a woollen manufacturer engaged in making blankets for soldiers who has a huge stock of them on hand at the sudden termination of the war, and is unable to dispose of them, and they depreciate very greatly in value. That manufacturer will be entitled to apply to the Commissioner for relief. The Commissioner will have power to modify the provisions of the Act in the case also of - the necessity in connexion with the war of providing plant which will not be wanted for the purposes of the business after the war; or liabilities incurred in a business at the instance of the Commonwealth Government in pursuance of the war-time policy of the Government.

I apprehend that there will not be many cases of that kind; but there are some in which, owing to the action of the Government, a company has been induced to apply its profits to the extension of plant. The Commissioner will also have power to modify the provisions of the Act in any other special circumstances specified in the regulations.

Mr Watt:

– Modification in such cases will mean a reduction of taxation.

Mr HIGGS:

– It will mean that the tax will not be collected. The honorable member for Henty has referred to cases of capita] being increased. Where capital has increased during an accounting period, or portion of an accounting period, an allowance in profits is made to enable a return of the percentage standard, viz., 6 per cent, or 7 per cent, on the increased capital. Where capital has been decreased during an accounting period, an addition to the profits must be made amounting to 6 per cent, or 7 per cent, on the capital withdrawn from the firm. If a firm with a capital of £50,000 is producing a return of 10 per cent., and takes half that capital and invests it in some other concern, the Commissioner will add to the profits on account of the capital which has been taken out of the firm. Provision is made that the Commissioner may, in any case where he thinks fit, allow the tax to be paid in instalments of such amount, and payable at such times, as he directs. Now I come to the request of the honorable member for Bourke, who asks for a definition. The profits shall be taken to be the actual profits arising in the accounting period, after making certain deductions which are allowed under the Income Tax Act, such as all losses and outgoings, including commission, discount, travelling expenses, interest, expenses actually incurred in gaining or producing profits; all rates and taxes, including State and Federal land taxes; deductions for wear and tear, or for any expenditure of a capital nature for renewals.

Mr Riley:

– How much do you expect to get?

Mr HIGGS:

– The honorable member seems to think that if we allow these deductions we shall get no revenue. These deductions are only those which are allowed in the case of the income tax, from which we derived £3,000,000 this year. We must allow the deductions in order to arrive at the net profit. The Bill provides -

Deductions for wear and tear or for any expenditure of a capital nature for renewals, or for the development of the business or otherwise in respect of the business, shall not be allowed except’ such as may be allowed under the Income Tax Assessment Acts 1015, and if allowed shall bc only of such amount as appears to the Commissioner to be reasonably and properly attributable to the year or accounting period. Deductions shall not bc allowed on account of the liability to pay, or the payment of, Commonwealth or State income tax or wartime profits tax, but a deduction shall be allowed for any sum which has been paid in respect of the profits on account of any wartime profits tax or similar tax imposed in any country outside the Commonwealth.

This brings me to the latter portion of the resolution passed by the InterState Chambers of Commerce Conference at Brisbane, pointing out that, unless some equitable provision is made to meet the case of British companies whose Australian trading profits are subject to taxation of a similar character in Great Britain, a manifest injustice will be wrought. The honorable member for Hindmarsh, for whom I have great respect, and who takes a very keen interest in financial questions, and the desirability of making people pay according to their ability to pay - a principle with which I quite agree - has interjected that by following the lines of the British war profits tax we should not get very much revenue. I propose to give an illustration for the purpose of showing that if we do as well in some cases as is being done in the United Kingdom we should tax a fair amount of profits if they are made, and also for the purpose of showing that the provision for avoiding double taxation is a reasonable one. The Colonial Ammunition Company Limited carries on portion of its business in Australia, and I understand from the Commissioner of Taxation that it has no objection to its business in this regard being disclosed. The gross income of the company is £129,652. The deductions allowable under the income tax in Australia are £39,435. leaving a taxable income of £90,217. The amount of the Commonwealth tax of ls. 6d. in the £1 is £6,766 5s. 6d. against a total net profit of £90,217. In England £42,000 has been assessed as war-time profits and income tax. The Commonwealth collects a further £6,766, and the State of Victoria collects over £5,000. It will thus be seen that in the absence of a provision to make a deduction for a tax payable in England, the whole of this company’s profits would be absorbed.

Mr Mathews:

– Will the British Government reciprocate ?

Mr HIGGS:

– The British Government will reciprocate in that regard. It is provided that any deduction allowed for the remuneration of directors, managers, and persons concerned in the management of. a business shall not exceed the sums allowed for this purpose in the last pre-war trade year; and that no deduction shall be allowed in respect of any transaction or operation of any nature where it appears, or to the extent to which it appears, that the transaction or operation has artificially reduced the amount to be taken as the amount of the profits of the business for the purposes of this Act. Already I have had brought under my notice a case where the manager of a business hopes to avoid the war-time profits taxation by increasing the salary he sets apart for himself. He will not be allowed to do so. It is further provided that, in estimating the profits, no account shall be taken of income received from investments, except in the case of life assurance businesses and businesses where the principal business consists of the making of investments ; and that in the case of any contract extending beyond one accounting period, and only partially performed during that period, the Commissioner shall attribute to each of the accounting periods in which the contract was partially performed such proportion of the entire profits or losses or estimated profits or losses as is properly attributable to such accounting periods respectively. The profits of any pre-war trade year are to be computed on the same principles and subject to the same provisions as the profits of the accounting period. When I said that we had followed the lines of the Imperial measure I meant that we have done so to a very great extent, but we do not adopt its definition of capital. That which we have adopted is this -

The amount of the capital of a business shall be taken to bc the amount of its capital paid up in money or in kind, together with all accumulated profits and balances brought forward from previous years to the credit of profit and loss account and invested in the business, less all proper deductions for wear and tear or replacement.

That the first item in the Estimates under Division 1, the Parliament, namely, “ The President, £1.100,” be agreed to.

Mr HIGGS:
Treasurer · Capricornia · ALP

– I received a promise from the Leader of the Opposition on Wednesday last that if a brief adjournment were given the Estimates would be passed that evening.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– Nothing of the kind.

Mr HIGGS:

– That was what I understood the honorable member to say, and I thought that the Opposition Whip was agreeable to the proposal. The Leader of the Opposition was not ready when the Budget debate was resumed to proceed with his speech, and I understood that if he were given a little time in which to prepare his remarks the Estimates would be allowed to pass next day. I do not blame the Leader of the Opposition, but I appeal to honorable members to be kind enough to allow us to get the Estimates through this evening, so that they may be sent on to the Senate.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– I rise to make a personal explanation. The Treasurer has made the astounding statement that I had promised to give him his Estimates on the night on which I spoke. The facts are these : The debate on the military statement having collapsed, I asked for a little adjournment so as to enable us to take a useful part in the discussion of the Budget. Instead of granting courteously, as any Leader of the Government will grant at any time to the Leader of the Opposition, a little time to collect myself, the Treasurer, with his customary hard bargainingj attempted to impose the condition that he should get the Estimates through that week, not that night. I told him then that I would do my best to assist him, but I was unable to give any definite promise. What happened immediately afterwards? If a comparison be made, it will be found that honorable members on the Government side occupied a great deal more of the time last week that did honorable members on this side. In those circumstances, what folly it is, and how unfair, for the honorable member to remind me that I entered into a compact of any kind. No one dreamt then that the debate would be drawn out, but the Budget now appears to have been lost sight of, and the military question has taken on a new lease of life and become infused with quite a different spirit. The result will be, I predict, that we shall discuss that question over and over again. The people outside Parliament are discussing conscription in serious mood, and that is why the debate is being prolonged. I ask the Treasurer to be a little more generous in his attitude toward the Opposition. He has sat on this side, and it is rather early for him to have forgotten what took place when he was in Opposition. He will find that if he acts a little more generously he will be more likely to get generous treatment in return. My responsibility in regard to the duration of the debate is absolved by the fact of honorable members on the Government side consuming so much time last week.

Mr SAMPSON:
Wimmera

.- The conscription debate in this Chamber will not be without its effect on the public opinion of Australia, if it be necessary for the public opinion to receive any stimulus upon this vital question. It has been disappointing to the people generally that the Government, who have been in charge of the conduct of the war from its inception, have not earlier adopted a policy which is absolutely essential for the proper prosecution of the war. The time for the discussion of this question is long overdue. We have been hurled into a contest which we believe can be won only by marshalling the whole of our manhood and resources side by side with those of the Allied Forces in Europe. Under the present system we are dependent on the public spirit and self-sacrifice of a section of our people to voluntarily do the work which the whole nation should be doing. In this war sacrifice should be spread equally and equitably over the whole community, instead of our allowing the more publicspirited of our young men to take upon themselves the burden of the Empire. Sometimes we seem to forget that we are fighting the most highly organized military nation that the world has ever known - a nation that for many years has brought science and organization to bear on its whole civil and military system, and we can successfully oppose to that preparedness nothing short of the entire resources of the Allied Forces. In time of peace, the British people are not a highly organized military nation. We have had to depend exclusively on the authority of our Democracy, and there can be no shadow of doubt that at the present time Democracy as a war machine is on its trial. That central authority which alone can exercise the power necessary to prosecute the war has in a large measure failed to properly organize the resources of the nation for war purposes. Compulsion does not apply alone to the necessity for sending the maximum numbers to the front. It is adopted in order that the manhood and resources of a nation may be so ordered and regulated that its utmost effort can be put into the fight.

A lot of fustian is talked about compulsion. As a matter of fact, the whole structure of society is based on some form of compulsion. We are compelled to obey laws, and to support certain institutions, and sometimes compulsion falls on the individual with great severity, but the general welfare of the State makes it necessary that such compulsion shall be exercised in order that the authority of the State may be paramount. The issue of compulsion was dealt with by Mr. Hughes in 1907, when he introduced into the House a motion for the establishment of a system of compulsory military training in the Commonwealth.

The position was so well put by the Prime Minister that I think, at this stage, the House should have the benefit of his utterances. Referring to compulsion, as it applies to society generally, he said -

Compulsion, to which my critics take exception, is the very essence of the government of these States, and, indeed, the very essence of civilization itself. Those who object to compulsion are recruited chiefly from two schools - the Socialists and the Individualists. It is difficult to understand how either school can consistently object to the proposal merely because it is compulsory in its nature. The Socialistic theory depends absolutely upon compulsion, the Individualistic upon absolute freedom. But the Individualist is not less illogical in this matter than is the Socialist, because the whole system of law, which regulates and orders all things in a civilized community, is based upon compulsion.- Absolute freedom is a chimera. All men are bound in their actions by the law. A citizen is not told to do something merely because it is right, but because it is the law, and if he does not do it something happens to him. A law without a penalty is usually of no effect, and is not regarded seriously.

That lays down the principle of compulsion on which society is based, and it could scarcely be stated with more force. During a period of peace, after calm, full and exhaustive discussion on the platform, in the press, and in this House, we established compulsory military training in Australia, and that law has been indorsed by two successive Governments. It was believed at that time that the only way in which Australia could properly defend herself was by a compulsory system of citizen forces, so that each individual, who enjoys the rights and benefits and privileges of our laws, should have laid upon him the duty and responsibility of defending the country. If it was found necessary during a period of peace to place such a law upon the statute-book, what can be said of a Government, who are the central authority, and the only authority that can enforce such a law, failing to perform its obvious duty of putting the Defence Act into operation? I know that it has been urged that our Defence Act in this regard does not apply because the enemy is not battering at our gates. But who can say that there is any difference between defending Australia on Australian soil and defending her on the battlefields of Europe? No one who calmly and dispassionately considers the question can hold for a moment that we are not as much on our defence now in meeting the great military organizations of Europe as we should be if confronted with the enemy on Australian soil. The Defence Act, after full discussion, was declared to be necessary for the efficient defence of the nation; and yet it has been allowed to remain inoperative, simply because the Government have failed to show themselves strong and courageous enough to make it applicable to the present war. They have failed to make that necessary and slight amendment which would render the Act an efficient instrument in the effective prosecution of the war. The Defence Act was passed in 1909, and its intention was clearly shown by the honorable member for Gippsland on Friday last. The war provisions of an earlier Act were embodied in the Act of 1909, and further indorsed by a subsequent Act of 1910; and these set forth a thorough scheme of organization. Under these Acts, which found support in every part of the House, the Minister of Defence, or the GovernorGeneral, has power to call out for service on the battlefield all men between the ages of eighteen and sixty years; and I do not see why those provisions should not be proclaimed and made applicable to the present conditions. We could, I think, leave our medical men to discriminate between those who should and those who should not go on active service up to the age of sixty years. Every one of us who has been on the recruiting platform must, in view of our present inefficient system of voluntaryism, have felt a certain amount of diffidence in asking others to do what we are not prepared to do ourselves; and I, for one, am quite in favour of making those sections apply to present circumstances. When Sir Thomas Ewing’s Defence Bill was before the House in 1908 the present Prime Minister dwelt on the necessity for compulsion; and the views he then expressed afford the strongest argument for the application of such a system now. On that occasion the present Prime Minister said -

Why should only one man in forty be asked to bear upon his shoulders the responsibility and burden of defending his country? It is true that under the present system that burden is voluntarily undertaken, and whilst that is much in the volunteer’s favour it is very much against those who decline to do their part in the defence of the Commonwealth. It appears to me, and to all who support the principle embodied in the Bill, that since defence con- cerns every one, every one has a right to take part in it.

The case could hardly be put better. The debates in this House om that occasion show conclusively that the present debate should have been unnecessary,, for the Government, shortly after the war broke out, ought to have introduced a measure applying the compulsory provisions. We prided ourselves on having led the whole Empire in placing the duty and responsibility of defence on all citizens. We were proud of the fact that we had no standing army in the ordinary sense of the word - that we had eliminated from our Democracy all traces of militarism as understood in Europe - and had imposed the duty of defence on all those who enjoyed the protection and privileges of our laws. We have also, had utterances by the Prime Minister on this subject since he left Australia, and these show, I think, that we ought not to allow the voluntary system to continue unless we are prepared to face the danger of discredit being, cast on the Commonwealth. We are all proud of the Prime Minister’s brilliant and eloquent speeches at the heart of the Empire, in which he has expressed the sentiments of Australia in regard to trade relations and Empire preference. The right, honorable gentleman has also expressed views as to the need for still more efficient, military organization, and, when in Canada, at a luncheon given to- him by the Prime Minister of the Dominion, the Leader of the Opposition, members- of the Cabinet, and Judges, he said -

Australia has been able t» accomplish what she has because, as the corner stone of her democratic edifice, she had a system of compulsory military training. In a Democracy every man must be taught that the primary duty of a citizen was ability to defend his country, his home, and himself

That is reported in the Times of 25th February of this year; and, later on, at a great public meeting in London, the right honorable gentleman declared -

Germany’s military power must be utterly crushed. In no other way can the peace of the world be secured. Peace under any other conditions would be only a period of feverish preparation for another and even la more fearful struggle.

Here we have it laid down that the system of compulsion is the corner stone of the organization of Australia, and he urges greater effort and efficiency in the prosecution of the war. In Great Britain a system of compulsion has been introduced, and yet, in spite of all, our Defence Act, so far as the present crisis is concerned, is allowed to remain inoperative, simply because the Government, apparently, have not the courage to take the proper steps for the moblization of our Forces.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– In New Zealand compulsory service has been introduced.

Mr SAMPSON:

– Quite so; in New Zealand some such system has been adopted, or is about to be adopted.

– Do you think we could do more under the conscript system?

Mr FINLAYSON:

– No ; the figures show that we have sent away, or have in Camp, something like 250,000 men, in addition to about 5,000 men in the Fleet, and some forces in New Guinea and in other places. If to that enormous number of men is added those who have offered and been rejected, it will be found that we have practically enlisted not less than about 400,000 men. If Australia did nothing further in connexion with this war, she would have done more than her share as compared with any other part of the British Empire. In proportion to our population we are far ahead of any other part of the Empire. Three days before the war broke out the Leader of the Opposition, who was then Prime Minister, said at Colac -

I hope there will be no need for our brave men to leave our -shores, but I am perfectly certain, if the need arise, we shall see a response as spontaneous and complete as at any time in our history. There would be no lack of volunteers. My impression is that if war breaks out, the trouble will be to get our men to stay at home

The response has been magnificent. I think the Leader of the Opposition himself must be delighted with what Australia has accomplished. One feels utterly unable, with the limited vocabulary at one’s disposal, to appreciate adequately the heroism and conduct of our men. Australia has a record of which she has every reason to be proud, and no reason at ali to be ashamed. The recruiting figures show that the response of the men has exceeded all expectations. The speeches of the present Prime Minister have already been referred to. Here is what he said in a remarkable outburst in Sydney -

It was no use going round like a. tame cat to these men. They must be fought with the ferocity of a Bengal tiger. Principles they cannot understand, nor argue, and religion they have no use for. There is only one thing they can understand, and that is force.

I am opposed to force, because I believe it is no remedy for the present situation ; there are things that will achieve much greater results than force. I believe that the schoolmaster who cannot control his scholars except by the use of force should be out on the road breaking stones. I am entirely opposed to force as a remedy.

Mr Thomas:

– But you apply force to the liquor trade ?

Mr FINLAYSON:

– If the honorable member for Barrier is anxious for a debate with me on that question, I shall oblige him at any time. I have referred to the deeds of our men. Here is a statement which appeared in the Melbourne

– I am well aware of the reason why the Defence Department did not allow these men to go. It was thought that they could do better work here. The Department reckons that these men were indispensable here, probably in just the same way as the Lord Mayor of London thought that his footman was indispensable, and asked that he should be exempted, or as one British employer thought that a supervisor employed by him on a Government contract at the rate of 30s. a week was indispensable and should be exempted, or as another employer thought that a single man to whom he was paying 16s. 6d. a week was indispensable and should be exempted. Even in regard to the military Service Bill before the House of Commons at the present time, a great deputation of one-man shopkeepers claimed exemption, because their services were indispensable to the carrying on of their businesses. I am not so certain that the services of these military officers were necessary in Australia at the beginning of the war. If so, why did the Defence Department a few months ago issue an order that every man on the permanent staff should offer for enlistment or produce a medical certificate justifying his exemption? Many of these men are very capable. On the other hand, many are utterly incapable - principally those on the reserve staff - and their incapacity has been proved during the war. Many of them are just about as adept at tripping the light fantastic toe at Government House as they would be in showing a clean pair of heels at Gallipoli. Perhaps it was just as well that they did not go. I shall quote some records later on in regard to the conduct of some officers at the front; but my point now is that we have occupying positions in the permanent Defence service a number of capable, efficient men, officers, and instructors, whose whole opportunity of life has gone, whose whole opportunity for promotion in their profession has gone, whose health and ability warranted their going to the front, but who are held back by the Department. In the street every day we can hear people say, “Why should I enlist while those military Johnnies are walking about the street? When they go I shall go.” The remark is quite a common one. Another hindrance to recruiting is the -incapacity of the officers in Australia as shown by their incompetency to control the men in the training camps. This was particularly noticeable in the early stages of the war. We had disgraceful reports of camp and street riots. Time and again Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane, and Adelaide were absolutely in the hands of the soldiers. Their officers had no power, influence, or control over them. Fortunately, we have overcome that difficulty to some extent. The experience of Brisbane may be indicative of the experience in other States. We had men in charge of the camp there of great reputation - men presumed to possess experience and ability in the handling of recruits - but it was not until we got rid of all those picture officers and obtained the services of a young man who, though only twenty-seven years of age, possessed some courage and intelligence, that we were able to secure order in the camp.

Mr Burns:

– From what State did that young man come? Was it not Tasmania ?

Mr FINLAYSON:

– I believe that he came from Tasmania originally. The incapacity of some officers was further proved by the conditions of the camps. In the early stages of the war the condition of affairs in the various camps was a matter for discussion in this Chamber day after day. There were motions for adjournment, and questions without number, honorable members complaining of the state of affairs, and pointing out that soldiers were compelled to live and carry on their training under conditions that were simply disgraceful. The fault did not lie entirely with the arrangements made by the Defence Department. It was largely due to the fact that men absolutely incompetent to fill the positions were placed in charge of these various sections of defence activity. When the reports of these conditions in the camps were spread by the soldiers, honorable members must have heard it said time after time, “If that is how things are, I am not going.” One of the greatest hindrances to recruiting in the early stages of the war - and to a lesser extent now that some kind of oi’ganization has been brought about - was the incompetence of the officers managing affairs for the Department. Another hindrance at the present day is the conduct of recruiting sergeants, many of whom, because of their temperament and lack of ability, are absolutely unfitted for their positions. They use all sorts of threats, because they occupy a semiofficial position, or hold a little brief authority in the name of the Commonwealth, and they seek to impose their will on the people. Those who do not respond to their invitation to enlist they class as slackers, wasters, shirkers, and cowards. Last week a recruiting sergeant spoke at a meeting at a big establishment in Collingwood, and used the usual arguments, telling the workmen that they were cowards if they did not go to the front, that it was up to them to do their best and not be shirking their duty, and so on. One of the employees in that establishment was evidently considerably affected by the meeting, and here are two verses of some poetry that he wrote next day -

Three Sergeants spoke straight out last night,

About this Great and Bloody Fight,

Although we knew they spoke aright,

No one stirred.

They asked for young and able men,

To come right forward there and then,

To drive the Kaiser from his den,

But no one stirred.

– No; the State ought to send the right men to do this work, and then there would be a proper response. Another hindrance to recruiting is the reports by returned soldiers. All of us have received communications from men who have enlisted, but the most painful have been the reports by men who have returned from the front. I desire to read to the Committee a few extracts from a statement made by a returned captain who says that he has been recommended for discharge, although the Empire requires fighters -

There is too much graft . and rapid promotion going on, and the hospital staff helping themselves unreservedly. . . . The Minister relies on the board reports, which I contend are faked. . . . Although we are crying out for conscription, good men are being humbugged, and such as I are being shelved out of pure vindictiveness. This is a puny resort, and it is a pity that those concerned do not effectually employ their methods against the enemy. That we are all subject to lying indictments when such a state of affairs prevails is true. . . .

Colonel- indulged to such an excess on the way to Egypt and on his arrival in Cairo that he was unable to report to head-quarters for some weeks. He never hit the front, and was returned empty to Australia, but is now going out with a substantial promotion. . . .

Captain- refused to go to Gallipoli, but he was returned under the heading of sunstroke, I understand. There are hundreds of such cases where kissing goes by favour. . . .

Colonel- went out as O.C. troopship, and, without such annoyances as I had, got well on it. He got the tremulous symptoms, also could not sleep, and continued in Cairo for three weeks after he came off the boat, and. mind you, he was so well jagged that he did not report to head-quarters for a fortnight at least . after his arrival. . . .

Captain- , when he got the date of hia boat for Gallipoli, got on a yelping bender, and got down to it, and would not go to the front.

Later on lie says -

I get more money in Brisbane than going as a captain, but would like to go out in a unit, and get a fair chance.

In his last letter he gives this record of another officer - who was sent home from Africa, summoned after the war by a trooper, yet lie went out from Perth to England with the Imperial Reservists; has never been to Gallipoli, but, although he took a fit in Cairo streets with the drink, lie is suffered to put spokes in the wheels of good men who go to the front.

That letter is written by a captain in Brisbane whom I know personally. Here is the case of another officer - a major, who was accused by his lieutenant-colonel of slackness, inefficiency, and unsuitability. I have eighteen sworn affidavits by majors, captains, sergeants, medical officers, and stretcher-bearers, including the ‘man who was second in command of the company, in which the statement of the lieutenant-colonel in regard to this man’s slackness is declared to be absolutely untrue. One man says that the statement is a deliberate falsehood, whilst the second in command says that he saw the officer every day in the trenches. The lieutenant-colonel said that the medical officers could find nothing the matter with this major, but I have a sworn statement by the man in charge of the hospital that the medical officer - unfortunately he is now dead - had told him that this major was seriously ill. The deponent himself states that the major was in hospital for several weeks seriously ill with appendicitis, and that he rejoined his unit when he ought to have been still in hospital. There is all this evidence, but what relief can this man get? The captain to whom I referred in the first place asked for an inquiry, and I supported his application, but the request was simply refused, and he was discharged. The major, a vigorous, healthy, and willing young man of about twenty-six years of age, was returned to Australia on the word of a lieutenantcolonel whose statements are said in sworn affidavits to be absolutely untrue. It is reports such as these that ar© hindering recruiting. I have here a cutting from the Bulletin in regard to a returned captain who lately shot himself in Brisbane -

The treatment they are getting on their return to Australia is preying on the minds of a good many officers. . . To put it quite plainly, a very large number of those officers who have not moved outside Australia, but have entrenched themselves in safe easy jobs, arc making a dead set against the returned officers - men who have been invalided back from the front - and the men who have stayed at home seem to be able to pull most of the strings at present.

They como to Egypt from a fresh colonial country, from good homes, pure women who arc their mothers, gentle and innocent girls who are their brides. They nobly offer themselves to fight for their race against a false idea and a predatory nation.

He then goes on to say -

The first army that came was the wildest, boldest, and they plunged right away into the sin and gaiety and dangerous pleasures of the city, conducted by the money-grubbing but ingenious and smiling Arabs, to the gambling dens, dancing houses, and strange parlours of the back streets. They were cheated, swindled, robbed whilst drunk, robbed whilst asleep, but they saw strange sights and tasted unusual pleasures, sating the new eyes and lips which Egypt had given them. At last, the time drawing nigh for their departure for the Dardanelles, they resolved to get back part of what they had lost in the back streets of the city - certain things they could never get back - and they went down in force and sacked tho houses and rushed the Arabs and Arab women to the streets and took back what they could find. There was a great riot. The native police were called out, and they fired at tho screaming mob. Such scenes were enacted in the city that brought to mind the continuous street rioting in Alexandria in the oUl early Christian dnys. But what is most significant in the sight of these fine young men in the city is the realization of the impure strain they take back with them from Egypt to the women and the children of Australia and New Zealand.

One of tire biggest hindrances to recruiting in the case of a certain class of young men in Australia is this record. Hitherto such records have been censored, but now they are being published in the magazines. We have a big account against the Imperial Government because of the way in which they treated our boys in Egypt. The latter were handed over to them clean, healthy, fresh, and true, and in what condition have many of them been sent back? Fortunately, we know that the camps in Egypt are being broken up, and the men taken to England. Another hindrance to recruiting, and a very great one, is the administration of the War Precautions Act, particularly in the matter of the limitation of free speech and the freedom of the press. In this connexion we have a rather remarkable statement by the Prime Minister, which was published in the Sydney Swn on the 13th May. Speaking at a press dinner in England, he said -

A free press was so much part of civilization tit at it was inconceivable that civilization conld exist without it. If we were ever to have a real Empire, the press must be one of the chief means of attaining it. A great thing the war had done was to make the British people know eacli other clear of the mists of prejudice. They were mo longer dull and distorted images. It would largely depend on the press whether the new, dear vision of the nobler life would be maintained.

– That is not so. I can illustrate tie only limitation which should be put upon freedom of action or speech. Standing where I am, I can swing my arms about in any way I please; but if I get too close to my neighbour, my liberty to swing my arms freely may be very properly interfered with. Freedom of action, speech, or criticism, is only logically and properly limited when it interferes with the -equal liberty of some one else. I wish I had time to make a few quotations from a little book I have here entitled The History of Freedom of Thought, which honorable members can obtain from the Library, and which I advise them to read. They will learn there what was said by Socrates, the pagan of old, by Milton, by Stuart Mill, and many other authorities worth quoting on the subject of free speech and liberty of conscience. It is remarkable that people who, when in opposition and out of power, struggle and fight for liberty of conscience and freedom of speech as legitimate rights always demanded by every Britisher, become, when positions are reversed, the greatest tyrants and opponents of freedom of speech. We find that in religion, politics, and social affairs. I believe that today the limitation of the freedom of speech, and the stoppage of public criticism, are doing as much as anything else to hinder recruiting. It is of no use to talk to me about compulsion whilst such obstacles to voluntary recruiting may be removed. Until we have exhausted the resources of the voluntary system, I refuse to consider conscription as a reasonable issue. Until we have arrived at a time when we can say that, after every reasonable effort to secure a sufficient number of men by the voluntary system, we have absolutely failed to do so, there will, in my opinion, be no reasonable or logical justification for the imposition of compulsion.

Sitting suspended from.-6.S0 to 7.J/.5 p.m.

Mr RICHARD FOSTER:
Wakefield

– This debate, since the delivery of his Budget speech by the Treasurer, has been confined almost entirely to the question of conscription. In my view a diversion from even so important a matter as the consideration of the Budget is justifiable in the circumstances, because it is impossible to conceive of anything of greater moment than the means to pro vide effectively sufficient numbers to represent the Commonwealth at the front in the great conflict that is raging at the present time. I have listened with pleasure to many of the speeches that have been made, and with a good deal of amazement to the speech of the honorable member for Brisbane. I must say that that speech was fearfully and wonderfully made. I did not know where the honorable member was going to land himself. He seemed to be struggling violently with some ruling passion in his own bosom, and trying to get under shelter in some city of refuge. Eighty per cent, of the arguments the honorable member used were the strongest that possibly could be used in favour of conscription, yet he protested against . it. He protested over much, and when he came to the close of his speech he admitted fairly that he was against conscription, at all events until it was proved that the voluntary system of recruiting had failed. I hope I do not misrepresent what he said. In my opinion, and I think in that of most of the people of the Commonwealth, the voluntary system of recruiting has failed absolutely. It has failed in the State from which I come. We have had there two recruiting movements by special trains. No one could have promoted and supported those recruiting trips more industriously and enthusiastically than did the Premier of South’ Australia, Mr. Vaughan, and those associated with him. Yet they were failures. I believe that similar recruiting movements in Victoria have also been failures. In my own State it is admitted all round, that recruiting on the voluntary principle is played out, and that many who are prepared to go to the front are waiting for the application of the compulsory principle, when they will cheerfully present themselves for enlistment. I cannot recognise any consistency in the people of the Commonwealth in protesting against the application to recruiting for the war of a principle that breathes through all our legislation for the defence of Australia. The conception and execution of the whole of the designs of Australia against an invading enemy are based on compulsion. It has been pointed out eloquently and effectively by the Prime Minister, when appealing in Australia to his own political supporters, that their industrial organization and all its success are due to and based on the principle of compulsion. If compulsion is a proper principle to apply in our defence legislation for the local protection of Australia., is it not consistent with that principle that we should be prepared to apply compulsory service for the defence of the country on the other side of the world? We ought to thank God every moment of every day that we are defending Australia there in this war, and not here on our own soil. I am a whole-hearted conscriptionist in this case. In the prosecution of this war time is of the essence of the contract, and a resort to a method that will provide numbers sufficient to adequately represent Australia at the battle front would be of infinitely more value to-day than it would be in three months’ time. Prompt and effective measures would, undoubtedly, help to determine the duration of the war and to conserve human life by bringing it speedily to an end. We owe a duty to the 200,000 men who have offered themselves, and have been prepared to lay down their lives for this magnificent heritage of ours in the Southern Seas. Is not every man at the front, and every returned soldier, almost without exception, pleading with the authorities and people of Australia to bring, without any unnecessary delay, this principle of compulsory national service into operation in order that the splendid sacrifices that have been made may accomplish the best and widest results? Though I am afraid I shall have to do so at some length, I wish to deal concisely to-night with a matter of public expenditure, particularly in connexion with the construction of the Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta Railway. I make no apology for this, because I have repeatedly in this House referred to the demoralized methods, inefficiency, and enormous and unjustifiable expenditure which has been associated with the construction of that railway. The matter ought to have been brought under the consideration of this House for searching inquiry a year or two years ago. If it had received the attention its magnitude demanded, we would be in a very much better position than we are in to-day. I approach the consideration of thequestion with some diffidence so far as it concerns the highest responsible officials. I am well aware that the present EngineerinChief of Commonwealth Railways came from Queensland to the Commonwealth service with a very high reputa tion as an eminent railway engineer. Personally, he is a man who is rightly held in the highest possible respect by every one who knows him. But I want to say that the conditions under which Mr. Bell works in the construction of the Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta railway, and those under which he was engaged for very many years in railway construction in Queensland, are just as different as night is from day. It is very difficult to apportion the blame for what has occurred. So far as the Ministers or the Engineer-in-Chief are concerned, we ought first to investigate the system under which this railway construction is being carried out, and if we give the most rudimentary thought to this matter we must admit that failure is inevitable under any management if the enterprise is to be conducted under this system which now obtains. It is impossible to build economically, from the Melbourne office, a railway from the northern part of South Australia, in the direction of Western Australia.

Mr Riley:

– Parliament ought to have been shifted from Melbourne long ago.

Mr RICHARD FOSTER:
WAKEFIELD, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925

– It is not a question of shifting Parliament so much as the adoption of some sane, commonsense method in railway construction, and of putting responsible, efficient men on the spot instead of using the . Port Augusta office - and I suppose, similarly, the office on the western end - for the despatch of urgent telegrams to Melbourne and the receipt of similar communications from head office. During the first year of construction, at all events, at Port’ Augusta, the outside public could not get a look in at all. If they wanted to despatch messages they were told that the lines were engaged on Commonwealth business. The railway was estimated to cost about £4,250,000 - one authority says under £4,000,000 - and it was stated that when completed for traffic there would be a loss of £40,000 a year in working expenses. We will be mighty lucky, indeed, if either forecast proves to be reliable.

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

– Why did not the honorable member say this when the Bill was before the House?

Mr RICHARD FOSTER:

– I said a good deal concerning the East- West railway on that occasion; and to-night I want to emphasize my views, speaking, as

I do, from a personal knowledge of the country extending pretty well over thirtyfive years.

Mr W Elliot Johnson:

– We were misled in regard to this railway.

Mr RICHARD FOSTER:

– No, I do not think there was any misunderstanding; but I want to inform the honorable member for Denison that the East-West railway, now under construction, is what railway people would call a desert railway, and when the Bill was before the House I never discussed it on any other basis. Mr. Anderson, who was engaged by the Commonwealth Government to investigate several Departments of Commonwealth -activity, referred to this line as a 5. -in. rainfall railway. Those are his figures, not mine, but on the average I dare say he is about right. Now, we were told that this railway had to be constructed for defence purposes. If that had not been the reason, the Bill would probably not have been passed for another generation or two. When we have completed the line, we shall have to extend the railway from Port Augusta right to the Northern Territory - this also largely through country with a very small rainfall - and on top of that it has been suggested that we should consider the construction of a strategic railway to connect Port Augusta with Sydney, which, so far as South Australia is concerned, will also go very largely through country with a limited rainfall. If we are to carry out these undertakings, particularly through such country, it is essential that there should be economy of construction; but the very opposite has been our experience in connexion with the East-West line, which is being built on such extravagant lines as to give one the impression that the Government have money to burn. We have spent money most recklessly. That railway which was to cost £4,000,000 is going to cost at least £6,500,000.

Mr W Elliot Johnson:

– Probably £8,000,000.

Mr RICHARD FOSTER:

Mr Thomas:

– Especially if there are two or three good mines close to the line.

Mr RICHARD FOSTER:

– If we combine the two we have great possibilities; but in this instance we have not those possibilities. The railway is going away from the auriferous country. By the end of this financial year the line will have involved the Commonwealth in an expenditure of £5,160,000, and only a little over two-thirds of it will have been constructed. Out of a total of 1,030 miles there are 287 miles yet to be built. Furthermore, we have only from 160 to 200 miles of the line ballasted, and as the estimated cost of ballasting is about £700 a mile, we can easily realize the big figures this business will involve us in before the line is anywhere near completion. Is it not time that the House demanded the application of business principles to such an enormous expenditure? The line is being built in country far away from the reach of honorable members. Even very few South Australian or Western Australian honorable members can see what is going on. Therefore, the House should be supplied with frequent progress reports, in order that honorable members may know how the work is proceeding. I wish now to deal with the matter of the building of workshops at Port Augusta. There is among the official papers a remarkable minute involving a very big matter. It is headed, “ Department of Home Affairs,” and reads as follows : -

The responsible Commonwealth railway officers recommended that the Marine Board reserve and other land at Conway Town, Port Augusta, totalling some 227 acres, be acquired for Commonwealth railway purposes as a site for locomotive sheds, carriage sheds, landing and storage of coal, &c., and urged that it was wise to look well ahead in such matters. Early in 1915 the land was acquired. A considerable part is below high-water mark, and will require to be reclaimed before use.

– He is a mechanical engineer in a very high position. He has had forty years’ experience, and has seen the development of the South Australian railways, so that his opinion on a mechanical locomotive question ought, at all events, to be as valuable as that of the Engineer-in-Chief, who is not a mechanical engineer, but is a railway civil engineer. I am perfectly willing to tell the responsible Minister, in confidence, who this authority is; and I am sure that if I told the honorable member for Hindmarsh, he would admit the man’s capacity and wide experience. This expert says -

To deal adequately with the repairs and renewals to the 4-ft. 8J-in. gauge locomotives, carriages and other rolling-stock which will eventually work on the lines between Port Augusta and Kalgoorlie, I think it would be in the interests of the Commonwealth if, instead of spending something like £250,000 in the provision of workshops, machinery, tools, and appliances for dealing with this work at Port Augusta, that a simple running shed only be used at that point for the purpose of meeting running needs for the line above referred to, because, when you take over the Great Northern line, you will have full control of all the sheds and appliances which are at Port Augusta for 3-ft. 6-in. gauge, which would enable you to provide all the stabling accommodation which is necessary for your engines and carriages, which is thought desirable should be kept at Port Augusta for meeting the requirements of the Bast-West railway. Therefore, full advantage should be taken of utilizing to its fullest capacity for not only repairing 3-ft. 6-in. gauge engines, but also engines of the 4 ft. 8J in., the railway workshops which belong to the Commonwealth, and are now erected and in commission at Quorn. For this purpose I strongly” urge as a matter of policy which would result in considerable economy in working, of converting the line between Port Augusta and Quorn from 3-ft. 6-in. to 4-ft. 8^-in. gauge. I estimate that, roughly speaking, to relay this line, which is 25 miles long, with rails of 80 lbs. to the yard, the strengthening of the bridges between the two points, and mixing the gauge in Quorn yard, and also mixing the gauge in the Quorn locomotive yard and sheds, would not cost the Commonwealth more than about £4,000 per mile, as it must be taken into account that no heavy earthwork would be encountered.

Mr Burns:

– That is £100,000.

Mr RICHARD FOSTER:

– But if the honorable member follows me he will see that is discounted later on -

The line is at present well ballasted, and it would only mean the difference in cost as between the 50 lbs. line which now exists on the 3-ft. 0-in. gauge and the proposed 4-ft. 8½in gauge line with 80 lbs. plant. In those circumstances, you will readily perceive that it would bc an economical move to carry out this as a part of your policy, and get it put in hand at the_ earliest possible moment before the EastWest railway is opened, as by converting this line would mean the first section of the strategical line which was recommended by the War Department (Lord Kitchener), and which must eventually be carried through from Quorn to Broken Hill, connecting up with the New South Wales State system at that point, now in course of construction. You will thus see that the approximate cost of conversion of this 25 miles of line will amount to practically £100,000, thus showing absolutely a saving to the Commonwealth of the very large amount which is proposed to spend at Port Augusta in workshops and appliances suggested above.

All that would be necessary at Quorn for dealing adequately with repairs to all the rolling-stock running on the East-West line would be the provision of a wheel lathe and one or two other smaller machines which would not cost, at the outside, more than £5,000.

I ask the Government to take this expression of opinion into consideration, and also to have the matter properly investigated. I may tell honorable members that there is not. a mechanical engineer on the South Australian railways whose opinion is not in accord with that I have read.

Mr Page:

– Is Quorn in the Wakefield electorate ?

Mr RICHARD FOSTER:

– No, it is not. My informant goes on -

I commend this scheme to your very careful consideration, as you will notice that there is money to be saved in it, and the goal ultimately to be reached is one central depot for dealing adequately with the repairs and renewals to your rolling-stock running on the Great Northern, and also on the East-West railway, and later on with the strategical rail way, which must come sooner or later in connecting Sydney with Port Augusta.

Thirty-six years’ active experience in the profession of architecture. The first seven years of that period were spent in several of the foremost architects’ offices in Scotland as an indentured pupil and as an assistant. Coincident with the practical office work, I studied at and passed the examination of the South Kensington Schools of Science and Arts in those subjects usual to an architectural education. The remaining experience of twenty-nine years has been in Australia; the first four of them, in association with other architects and by myself. Private works of considerable size and variety occupied mc, until the bad times of 1893 brought about acceptance of an engagement with the Queensland Government. After eleven years in the Queensland Government Architect’s Department, my transference in 1004 to the Commonwealth Government Service occurred, which engagement still continues. In the capacity of designer, or supervisor of construction, or both, the buildings engaged upon number very many hundreds of every kind, and in value from a quarter of a million pounds downwards. Due to my position in the Department, probably no person has had a wider experience in Australia, including its tropics. Engaged in considerable European travels, and have paid visits to the United States of America, Canada, and New Zealand. Am a Fellow of the Royal Victorian Institute of Architects.

Mr WEBSTER:

– We shall shortly be removing our mail branches from both the Melbourne and Sydney Post Offices, and that will afford me an opportunity of remodelling those places. I hope so to remodel them that the public, when they enter those buildings, will be able to transact all their business on the one floor. I trust, too, that when these changes are made we shall be able to secure economy of administration and efficiency of control. In rising to-night to defend a man with a reputation of which he has every right to be proud - a man who has been selected in competition with all local talent to give effect to his design for the new Catholic college in Melbourne - I feel that I have discharged a public duty. I have endeavoured to trace the situation, step by step, and it now only remains for me to effect the important improvements I have outlined in the conditions as they present themselves to-day.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta

Mr Webster:

– Does the right honorable gentleman say that these things should be cloaked up 1

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Certainly not. I am asking the Government now not to lose an instant in uncovering them further.

I wish to say a word with reference to the officers who have been indicted. If the statements we have heard are correct, they ought not to be continued in their present positions five minutes longer. They ought never to have been there, so great is their utter incompetence, if half of what the PostmasterGeneral has said be true. Here are these officers lying under these terrible charges of incompetence, and under a charge which almost amounts to misappropriation of public funds.

Mr King O’Malley:

WAR TIME PROFITS TAX BILL

Mr. SPEAKER reported the receipt of a message from His Excellency the GovernorGeneral recommending . an appropriation of revenue for the purposes of this Bill.

page 7971

PAPER

The following paper was presented : -

Workshops at Port Augusta or Quorn - Copies of reports as to establishment of Commonwealth railway workshops.

Ordered to be printed.

House; adjourned at 10.46 p.m.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 17 May 1916, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1916/19160517_reps_6_79/>.

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House of Representatives17 May 1916

PETITIONS

Mr SPEAKER:

QUESTION

EMBARGO ON COAL EXPORTATION

Mr CHARLTON:HUNTER, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr TUDOR:Minister for Trade and Customs · YARRA, VICTORIA · ALP

Mr Charlton:

Mr TUDOR:

Mr Burchell:

Mr TUDOR:

QUESTION

LIVERPOOL CAMP RIOT

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr JENSEN:Minister for the Navy · BASS, TASMANIA · ALP

QUESTION

EXPORT OF BUTTER

Mr FINLAYSON:BRISBANE, QUEENSLAND

Mr TUDOR:ALP

PERSONAL EXPLANATION

Mr FOWLER:PERTH, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr FOWLER:

QUESTION

REFERENDUM ON CONSCRIPTION

Mr BRUCE SMITH:PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr TUDOR:ALP

QUESTION

WAR PROFITS TAXATION

Mr PIGOTT:CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr HIGGS:Treasurer · CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND · ALP

QUESTION

LITHGOW SMALL ARMS FACTORY

Mr FINLAYSON:

Mr TUDOR:ALP

QUESTION

HENDERSON NAVAL BASE

Mr BURCHELL:

Mr KING O’MALLEY:Minister for Home Affairs · DARWIN, TASMANIA · ALP

QUESTION

OLD-AGE PENSIONS

Mr BURCHELL:

Mr HIGGS:ALP

QUESTION

INTER-STATE PRODUCE: INSPECTION

Mr ATKINSON:WILMOT, TASMANIA

Mr TUDOR:ALP

QUESTION

CITIZEN FORCES : SERVICE ABROAD

Mr FINLAYSON:

Mr JENSEN:ALP

QUESTION

RECIPROCITY: CANADA AND NEW ZEALAND

Mr FINLAYSON:

Mr TUDOR:ALP

QUESTION

AUSTRALIAN IMPERIAL FORCES: ALLOWANCE

Mr MASSY-GREENE:RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr JENSEN:ALP

QUESTION

NOTE ISSUE

Sir JOHN FORREST:SWAN, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr HIGGS:ALP

QUESTION

PRICE OF SUGAR

Mr CORSER:WIDE BAY, QUEENSLAND

Mr HIGGS:ALP

PAPERS

WAR-TIME PROFITS TAX ASSESSMENT BILL

Second Reading

Mr HIGGS:Treasurer · Capricornia · ALP

Mr HIGGS:

Mr Joseph Cook:

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr Joseph Cook:

Mr HIGGS:

Mr Joseph Cook:

Mr HIGGS:

Sir William Irvine:

Mr HIGGS:

House of Representatives
17 May 1916

Mr CHARLTON:
HUNTER, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr TUDOR:
Minister for Trade and Customs · YARRA, VICTORIA · ALP

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr JENSEN:
Minister for the Navy · BASS, TASMANIA · ALP

Mr FINLAYSON:
BRISBANE, QUEENSLAND

Mr TUDOR:
ALP

Mr FOWLER:
PERTH, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr TUDOR:
ALP

Mr PIGOTT:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr HIGGS:
Treasurer · CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND · ALP

Mr TUDOR:
ALP

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
Minister for Home Affairs · DARWIN, TASMANIA · ALP

Mr HIGGS:
ALP

Mr ATKINSON:
WILMOT, TASMANIA

Mr TUDOR:
ALP

Mr JENSEN:
ALP

Mr TUDOR:
ALP

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr JENSEN:
ALP

Sir JOHN FORREST:
SWAN, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr HIGGS:
ALP

Mr CORSER:
WIDE BAY, QUEENSLAND

Mr HIGGS:
ALP

Mr HIGGS:
Treasurer · Capricornia · ALP

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr HIGGS:
Treasurer · Capricornia · ALP

Mr SAMPSON:
Wimmera

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917