House of Representatives
25 August 1915

6^th Parliament · 1^st Session

PAPERS
QUESTION
- EXPEDITIONARY FORCES
SUGAR PURCHASE BILL
QUESTION
- EAU DE COLOGNE
QUESTION
- VICTORIAN MEAT SUPPLY
PERSONAL EXPLANATIONS
QUESTION
- LIVERPOOL CAMP : RE-ENLISTMENTS
QUESTION
- WHEAT AND WOOL CHARTERS
QUESTION
- HIGH COMMISSIONER
QUESTION
- COMPANIES ON THE ENEMY LIST
QUESTION
- EXPEDITIONARY FORCES
QUESTION
- CENSORSHIP
PAPER
QUESTION
- SOUTH AUSTRALIAN INSCRIBED STOCK
QUESTION
- METAL EXCHANGE
QUESTION
- MR. BRENNAN, M.P
QUESTION
- EXPEDITIONARY FORCES
QUESTION
- INDUSTRIAL TROUBLE AT PORT PIRIE
QUESTION
- DUTY ON CORNSACKS
QUESTION
- SUGAR AGREEMENT
QUESTION
- NATIONALITY OF COUNSEL
QUESTION
- TELEPHONE CHARGES
QUESTION
- EXPEDITIONARY FORCES
QUESTION
- HANSARD REPORTS: INTERJECTIONS
QUESTION
- ALLOCATION OF MILITARY PAY
QUESTION
- QUEENSLAND MAPLE : GUN STOCKS
QUESTION
- COUNTRY RECRUITS
QUESTION
- POSTAL OFFICERS’ INCREMENTS
QUESTION
- WIRELESS MESSAGE CHARGES
QUESTION
- MILITARY INSTRUCTORS
QUESTION
- INTER-STATE BUTTER TRADE
QUESTION
- CENSORS
QUESTION
- BEER FOR TRANSPORTS
CONSTITUTION ALTERATION (SENATORS’ TERM OF SERVICE) BILL
SUPPLY BILL (No. 2), 1915-16
SUPPLY (WORKS AND BUILDINGS) BILL. (No. 2) 1915-16
WHEAT FREIGHTAGE BILL
ADJOURNMENT

Mr. Speaker took the chair at 3 p.m., and read prayers.

page 6071

PAPERS

The following papers were presented : -

Report on the Business Management of the Postmaster-General’s Department by R. McC. Anderson.

Sugar Supply - Memorandum of Arrangement between the Government of the Commonwealth and the Colonial Sugar Refining Company about the Sugar Supply of Australia.

Ordered to be printed.

Defence Act - Provisional Regulations for the Conduct and Management of Government Factories - Statutory Rules 1915, No. 141.

Lands Acquisition Act -

Land acquired under, at -

Amnngnla, partly in Federal Territory and partly in the State of New South Wales - For Federal Capital purposes.

Avoca, Victoria - For Defence purposes.

Botany, New South Wales- For Postal purposes.

Goorooyarroo, Federal Territory - For Federal Capital purposes (2).

Kalgoorlie, Western Australia - For Railway purposes (2).

Warracknabeal, Victoria - For Defence purposes.

Public Service Act -

Promotions of -

page 6071

QUESTION

EXPEDITIONARY FORCES

Prohibition of Intoxicants : Encampment at Kerang : Probate : Inspection of Encampments.

Mr BOYD:
HENTY, VICTORIA

– I ask the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that a number of soldiers have recently been about the streets in a disgracefully drunken condition, the Government will take into consideration the advisability of regulating the supplying of intoxicating drink to men in uniform, either by abolishing the dry canteens, or by prohibiting the sale of liquor to men in uniform?

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister · WIDE BAY, QUEENSLAND · ALP

– The Commonwealth

Government has no control whatever of the sale of liquor, except in areas that have been proclaimed to be within Com monwealth jurisdiction ; but it is the duty of all the Governments of Australia to do their best at the present time to get rid of the drinking habit altogether. Certainly, every decent person who is in charge of a liquor retailing establishment will avoid giving liquor to any soldier who has already received enough. I shall be glad to co-operate with all parties to prevent unseemly conduct, though it is not to be assumed that our soldiers in general are anything but sober, honest, well-conducted patriots.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– Will the right honorable gentleman, for the honour of the Australian uniform, request the Premiers of the States to introduce legislation to prevent hotels from supplying intoxicating liquor to men in uniform ?

Mr.FISHER.- I should like my reply to be taken as a public statement that my opinion is that it is the bounden duty of those who have the power to govern the conduct of the liquor-selling business, and to regulate the hours during which liquor may be sold, to exercise their authority in the interests of the country, and for the protection of our soldiers.

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
DARWIN, TASMANIA

– Will the right honorable gentleman cause one or two chaplains to attend at the recruiting office to administer the pledge to the soldiers ?

Mr FISHER:

– The pledge that I should like to see taken would be a pledge on the part of the public to protect our soldiers from dishonour. There are only a few men who give way to intemperance, and if there were not scoundrels in our midst who are only too ready to take advantage of their weakness, the trouble that has occurred would never have arisen.

Mr GREGORY:
DAMPIER, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

– Will the Prime Minister consider the advisability of introducing this session a short Bill to abolish probate duties on the estates of persons killed at the front?

Mr FISHER:

– The matter will be dealt with later. It is not so simple as the honorable member seems to think.

Mr JOHN THOMSON:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES

– In view of the statements of Mr. Justice Rich as to the condition of affairs at the Liverpool Camp, will the Minister of Defence consider the advisability of appointing two members of this House - say, the honorable member for Maranoa and a member of the Opposition - to constantly visit the military encampments in the various States, and report to the Minister as to their condition?

Mr JENSEN:
Minister for the Navy · BASS, TASMANIA · ALP

– That would be a big order. The War Committee, which is composed of an equal number of members from the two political parties, has the power to make inquiries into, amongst other things, the matters of which the honorable member spoke, and, therefore, I think that his suggestion has been met in another way.

Mr SAMPSON:
WIMMERA, VICTORIA

– Has the Minister for the Navy yet come to any decision in regard to the establishment of a military camp at Kerang?

Mr JENSEN:

– I hope to have a reply to the question this afternoon.

page 6072

SUGAR PURCHASE BILL

Mr. SPEAKER reported the receipt of a message from His Excellency the GovernorGeneral, recommending an appropriation of revenue for the purposes of this Bill.

page 6072

QUESTION

EAU DE COLOGNE

Mr KELLY:
WENTWORTH, NEW SOUTH WALES

– In view of the AttorneyGeneral’s statement last Friday that recent shipments of eau de cologne consigned to Mr. Blau were improperly admitted, does the Minister of Trade and Customs propose to seize such shipments?

Mr TUDOR:
Minister for Trade and Customs · YARRA, VICTORIA · ALP

– I have no intention of doing so, but I have given the instruction that all shipments of eau de cologne and other things which come from neutral countries are in future to be held up until it can be ascertained that they are bonâ fide the product of such countries. As there seems to be very great suspicion regarding Mr. Blau’s shipments, no doubt special attention will be given to them.

page 6072

QUESTION

VICTORIAN MEAT SUPPLY

Mr HAMPSON:
BENDIGO, VICTORIA

– As it is considered impossible that cattle, after a sea voyage of a couple of thousand miles, can introduce tick, will the Minister of Trade and Customs resume negotiations with the Victorian Government with a view to the removal of the prohibition of the importation of cattle from the Northern Territory, so that the abnormal price of meat may be reduced?

Mr TUDOR:
ALP

– I have every reason to believe that after a long sea voyage tick disappear from cattle.

Mr Page:

– That is rubbish. Victoria will be very sorry if it introduces the tick pest.

Mr TUDOR:

-I shall be pleased to make representations to the Victorian Government, but I am afraid that they are hopeless.

page 6072

PERSONAL EXPLANATIONS

Mr MATHEWS:
MELBOURNE PORTS, VICTORIA

– I desire to make a personal explanation. In the House on Friday last I complained of waste of money in the Department of Defence, and referred in this connexion to the purchase of tables from Messrs. Craig, Williamson and Company at a cost of £10 10s. each. In the Age on Monday last the following letter on the subject appeared : -

A QUESTION OF PRICES.

To the Editor of the Age. - Sir, - Regarding the remarks of Mr. Mathews in the House of Representatives, as reported in your issue of to-day, that “ tables for use in connexion with sick beds were supplied by us at£ 10 10s. each, that would have been fairly paid for at £3 each,” we have gone carefully through our books, and cannot find any trace of our having supplied “ tables for use in connexion with sick beds at £10 10s. each,” and we cannot understand what Mr. Mathews refers to. - Yours, &c., Craig Williamson Propty. Ltd. (E. T. Cross, secretary) . 21st August.

I wish to state that I attached no blame to Messrs. Craig, Williamson and Company; I blamed the Department. I referred to operating tables, for which I said a charge of £10 10s. had been made, although I thought that tables suitable for the purpose could have been made for £3 each. If the firm look through their books they will probably find a record of the sale of operating tables at the price named by me.

Mr CARR:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I desire, by way of personal explanation, to refer to an article appearing in a leading Melbourne journal, which appears to have access to the secret reports of the Defence Department, and is evidently in the confidence of the censors.

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order. The honorable member is now going beyond a personal explanation.

Mr CARR:

– In the article in question this newspaper, theA rgus, reflects on me, referring to me as “ Erny.”

Mr Hampson:

– There is no reflection in that.

Mr CARR:

– The reflection is not in the mere mention of the name; the point is, that I am not the person referred to as “ Erny.” Fortunately, I am not the only citizen of the Commonwealth whose Christian name is Ernest, but the Argus, seeing a reference to “ Erny “ in the correspondence in question, evidently jumped to the wrong conclusion that I was the individual concerned.

page 6073

QUESTION

LIVERPOOL CAMP : RE-ENLISTMENTS

Mr ORCHARD:
NEPEAN, NEW SOUTH WALES

– As a large number of men have been compelled to leave the Liverpool Camp owing to the conditions prevailing there will the Minister cause to be published a notification that these men, on reporting themselves to the Camp Commandant within a certain period, will be allowed to re-enlist?

Mr JENSEN:
ALP

– I cannot make any promise. I shall bring the honorable member’s question under the notice of the Minister ofDefence, whose duty it will be to decide the matter.

page 6073

QUESTION

WHEAT AND WOOL CHARTERS

Mr POYNTON:
GREY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– Is the AttorneyGeneral yet in a position to inform the House of the result of the deliberations on the wheat and wool freights question? Can he give us full details of the proposed agreement, and state whether finality has been arrived at?

Mr HUGHES:
Attorney-General · WEST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– A decision has been arrived at subject to the approval of the Ministers of Agriculture of the various States, with whom I communicated yesterday. I expect to receive their replies some time during the day, and if they are in favour of accepting the arrangement, the proposal will be ready to lay on the table of the House.

Later :

Mr RICHARD FOSTER:
WAKEFIELD, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– Is the AttorneyGeneral ready to table the agreement in regard to wheat charters ?

Mr HUGHES:
ALP

– I have already replied to the honorable member for Grey that the agreement has been arrived at, but is subject to consideration by the various Ministers for Agriculture. As soon as they have approved of the agreement it will be available for perusal by honorable members.

page 6073

QUESTION

HIGH COMMISSIONER

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES

– In view of the great public interest taken in the appointment of a successor to Sir George Reid as High Commissioner, and the number of names mentioned in connexion with the matter, will the Prime Minister make a statement to the House in regard to it?

Mr FISHER:
ALP

– I can assure the honorable member that all the information I have on the subject is obtained by me from the press.

page 6073

QUESTION

COMPANIES ON THE ENEMY LIST

Continental Rubber Company - Siemens Bros

Mr FENTON:
MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA

– Will the AttorneyGeneral state what is the true position in respect to the Continental Rubber Company, what are the quantities and value of the goods held by it, and whether the Controller has been instructed to wind up the whole business as early as possible so that the British and Australian manufacturers may be relieved of German competition ?

Mr HUGHES:
ALP

– The Continental Tyre Company has not been singled out for special treatment. The same principles have been applied as in the case of all other companies on the enemy list. The circumstances of the company are somewhat different from those of other companies, and especially the nature of its wares; but it has been dealt with on exactly the same principles as are being applied, for instance, to Siemens Bros. and the Australian Metal Company, the scope of whose transactions is much larger. This Government decided to declare, as having enemy character, a class of companies owned or controlled by enemy subjects, with whom trading had not previously been legally forbidden; and in initiating this policy it was necessary to avoid injustice and injury to our own people. The rules of international law relating to enemy property on land must be considered, and applied evenly all round, and the difficulties of applying a general rule in such a way as not to cause serious industrial and commercial disturbance to the community are very great. With regard to Siemens Bros., for instance, if all pending transactions were to be terminated without regard to circumstances, some enterprises of great importance to the community, undertaken by Commonwealth, State, and municipal authorities, would be abruptly terminated. The same principles apply to certain large contracts and indents with the Australian Metal Company. When it is stated that the total value of the transactions referred to reaches some £2,000,000 or £3,000,000, it will be readily understood that the whole matter requires very careful consideration. It is receiving careful consideration, and the public bodies concerned are being communicated with. As to my honorable friend’s second question, I am unable to say definitely what are the quantities and value of goods held by the Continental Rubber Company, but I shall ascertain the figures, and advise him to-morrow. Coming to the third part of his question as to whether the Controller has been instructed to wind up the whole business as early as possible so that British and Australian manufacturers may be relieved of German competition, I desire to say that the Controller has been instructed to wind up the business. The only business that he is now permitted to transact is in that direction. The question of whether he shall remain in his present position or whether the policy of appointing controllers is desirable is also being considered. In my opinion, the policy of appointing controllers is not good, and will be discontinued.

page 6074

– The report of Mr. Justice Rich was handed to the GovernorGeneral late on Thursday night, I think. It was sent to the Prime Minister’s office, and immediately copies were typed for this House and the Senate, and the report was tabled in the Senate at 3.30 on Friday. I did not see the report; it is on the table unabridged.

page 6074

QUESTION

CENSORSHIP

Mr CARR:

– Will the Minister for the Navy say whether there is any arrangement which permits of a military censor dealing with private correspondence reporting his discoveries to the Argus?

Mr JENSEN:
ALP

– I am inclined to think the honorable member’s question conveys an impression which is not quite accurate. The Department would not countenance any such action, and I doubt whether such a thing has occurred.

page 6074

PAPER

Original draft of the arrangement between the Commonwealth Government and the Colonial Sugar Refining Company laid on the table by Mr. Hughes.

Ordered to be printed.

page 6075

QUESTION

SOUTH AUSTRALIAN INSCRIBED STOCK

Mr McGRATH:
BALLAARAT, VICTORIA

– Has the Prime Minister noticed that the South Australian Government are selling inscribed stock which is advertised as being free of income tax? Has the State Government made any arrangement with the Federal Government that such stock shall be exempt from Federal income tax?

Mr FISHER:
ALP

– No, I do not think it is within the power of the Commonwealth Government to agree to any limitations as to the application of Commonwealth Acts. I presume the South Australian Government advertisement relates to their own proposed legislative action. I suggest that that matter might well be dealt with at the forthcoming Premiers’ Conference.

MR. McC. ANDERSON’S REPORT ON THE POSTAL DEPARTMENT.

Mr WEBSTER:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I should like to ask the Postmaster-General whether it is customary for departmental reports to be handed to the press before being submitted to this House. I refer to the report of Mr. McC. Anderson in regard to the Postmaster-General’s Department. I have unsuccessfully applied for that report several times, though it is in the possession of the press?

Mr SPENCE:
ALP

– As far as I am aware no pressman saw Mr. McC. Anderson’s report until this afternoon. The report was kept under lock till it was laid on the table of the House. It is not an uncommon practice to send copies of big reports of public importance under seal to the Deputies in the various States to be handed to the press on a certain date.

page 6075

QUESTION

METAL EXCHANGE

Mr GREGORY:

– Will the Attorney-

General state whether, by the formation of a metal exchange, it is intended that all metallic ores shall be exported only through that organization, or its members ?

Mr HUGHES:
ALP

– The scope of the operations of the metal exchange was considered at a conference of those interested this morning. The draft rules have been referred to a committee. The conference is to meet again on Monday to consider the report of the committee. When the scope of the exchange has been delimited it will be possible for me to give a definite answer to the honorable member.

page 6075

QUESTION

MR. BRENNAN, M.P

Mr MATHEWS:

– The honorable member for Batman addressed an audience on the subject of ‘ ‘ Peace ‘ ‘ on Monday night. I notice the honorable member is not in his place to-day. Has the Attorney-General interned him ?

Mr HUGHES:
ALP

– Not to my knowledge.

page 6075

– It has come, not only to my knowledge, but the knowledge of many members of the House, that in almost the whole of the camps the medical fraternity neglect the men there. Will the Minister for the Navy take from me the information that the men are not properly looked after, and cause some inquiries to be made, without resorting to such an investigation as was conducted in the case of the Liverpool Camp?

Mr JENSEN:

– I think we may now take it that the Minister of Defence will be quite alert to everything that is going on, and will be very chary about taking a mere “ yes “ in answer to any inquiries made as to the conduct of the camps. The Minister will, I think, insist on holding the officers absolutely responsible, and will see that everything is carried on in such a manner in the future as will prevent his being called to account, as he has been recently, owing to certain officers not obeying their instructions. Any officer who does not at once carry out his instructions will find dismissal, and nothing else, the result in the future. The honorable member may rest assured that all the medical men in the various camps will have to do what is right.

page 6076

QUESTION

INDUSTRIAL TROUBLE AT PORT PIRIE

Mr POYNTON:

– I desire to direct the attention of the Attorney-General to a telegram I have received, and to ask him whether he can do anything to prevent what appears likely to become a serious labour trouble. The telegram is as follows: -

Position serious. Without Court starts to hear case within three weeks, men cease work midnight, August 28th. Can you use your influence to hurry on conference with Registrar?

Mr HUGHES:
ALP

– I have heard of this matter, and the Registrar of the Arbitration Court has been in communication with me regarding it this morning. I understand that the Registrar is also communicating with Mr. Barnet, the secretary of the union at Broken Hill. I prefer to say nothing more definite than that just now ; but the honorable” member may rest assured that the Court has this matter in hand, and will give it most speedy and favorable consideration.

– If it is his intention to increase the rate for telephone calls, may I ask the Postmaster-General if he will make the new arrangement apply only to the city exchanges, where the telephones do not pay, and not to country exchanges, where the telephones do pay ?

Mr SPENCE:
ALP

– The honorable member will learn what is proposed very shortly.

page 6077

QUESTION

EXPEDITIONARY FORCES

Additional. Camp : Discharged Soldiers and their Uniforms.

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP

– Will the Minister for the Navy say whether any development has taken place consequent upon the representations I made to him some three weeks ago regarding the establishment of a military camp at some suitable centre in the north-east?

Mr JENSEN:
ALP

– I have conferred with the Minister of Defence on the subject mentioned by the honorable member. The Minister was inclined to regard the request sympathetically, and I think something may be done in the near future.

Mr WEST:
EAST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I should like to bring under the notice of the Minister for the

Navy a matter affecting soldiers who have been discharged from the Army. When I was in Sydney this week I learned that certain men who have been discharged - I need not state the reasons why - have been conducting themselves in such a manner as to bring disgrace upon His Majesty’s uniform. Will the Minister see that when men are discharged from the Military Forces in the future no opportunity is given to them to use their uniforms for other purposes than that for which they were intended ?

Mr JENSEN:

– The question is one of some importance. I will confer with the Minister of Defence to see if it is possible to bring about the object desired by the honorable member.

page 6077

QUESTION

HANSARD REPORTS: INTERJECTIONS

Mr SPEAKER:

– The honorable member for Calare on Thursday last directed my attention to what he conceived to be an improper alteration of the official record of an interjection by the AttorneyGeneral while the honorable member was addressing the Chair. I promised the honorable member that I would inquire into the circumstances under which the alteration was permitted to be made. I find that, by the direction of my predecessors in the Chair, the AttorneyGeneral, in consideration of his wellknown infirmity and the difficulty he sometimes experiences in hearing the purport of questions addressed to him, has been permitted, where a misunderstanding has arisen from that cause, to amend his recorded reply to the question or interjection. I propose to continue that permission to the honorable gentleman in regard to questions addressed to him without notice; but I am of opinion that, in the case of a misunderstanding arising through his mishearing of an interjection in the course of a speech, the most convenient course to adopt would be to omit from the record both the interjection and the erroneous reply. Speaking of interjections generally, I have noted with regret the disregard by honorable members of the requests often preferred by myself, in common with other occupants of the Chair, that interjections may be less frequent. The persistence of honorable members in this disorderly practice not only protracts debate by introducing comparatively irrelevant matter, but is particularly unfair to the member addressing the Chair, in view of the standing order limiting the duration of speeches, rendering it necessary to resort, as I have recently pointed out, to an informal and very irregular suspension of the standing order. On many occasions in the course of the present session the interjections have been so frequent that the debate has been practically interrupted by a dialogue conducted between members on the front benches of both sides of the chamber, inaudible to a large section of the House, and frequently to the Chair. I hope that honorable members will show a greater disposition to assist me in securing the more orderly conduct of debate.

page 6078

QUESTION

ALLOCATION OF MILITARY PAY

Mr HIGGS:
CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND

asked the Minister for the Navy, upon notice -

Whether No. 1450 Private Samuel William John Wilson, 2nd Reinforcements, 9th Battalion, A.I.E. Forces, signed an agreement on the 19th of December, 1914, allocating to his legal guardian (John R. Craig) a portion of his military pay, viz., the sum of 4s. per day?
Why has Mr. John R. Craig not received the aforesaid allocation ?

Mr JENSEN:
ALP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are -

Inquiries are being made as to whether anything is known by the military authorities in Brisbane of the agreement referred to.
The allocation lodged by Private Wilson with the District Paymaster allots 4s. per day to be placed to his own credit in the Commonwealth Savings Bank. This has been paid to the 15th instant.

page 6078

QUESTION

QUEENSLAND MAPLE : GUN STOCKS

Mr MATHEWS:
for Mr. Bamford

asked the Minister for the Navy, upon notice -

Whether tenders were invited in November last by the Defence Department for a supply of 7 inches by 3 inches Queensland maple for gun stocks ?
If so, how many tenders, if any, were received, and from whom ?
What were the prices quoted by the tenderers, if any?
Were fresh tenders invited on the 21st December, closing on the 30th of the same month ?
Were any fresh tenders received?
Did all or any of those tendering on the first occasion submit fresh tenders; if so, who were they?
What were the prices quoted on the second occasion ?
Was any tender accepted; if so, whose, and at what price ?
Were samples of the timber required submitted on either or both occasions; and, if so, by whom?

Mr JENSEN:
ALP

– The answer to the honorable member’s questions are -

Yes. 2 and 3. Eight tenders were received, as follows : -

Yes.
Yes.
Yes, Wallis Brothers Limited, James Moore and Sons Proprietary Limited, Bell and Frazer Limited, Saxton and Binns Limited, Cairns Timber Limited, and in addition Rooneys Limited asked that their original tender should stand.

In reply to an inquiry from the Secretary of Defence, the manager, Small Arms Factory, telegraphed on 22nd March, as follows : - “ Samples submitted by Wallis Brothers and Cairns Timber Company were superior to all.”

page 6079

QUESTION

COUNTRY RECRUITS

Mr PIGOTT:

asked the Minister for the Navy, upon notice -

Whether the Minister of Defence will reconsider his recent decision and allow farmers to enlist with the understanding that they be allowed leave during harvesting operations. Failing this, will he have drill instructors sent weekly, Saturdays preferred, to the closely-settled farming centres, where hundreds of volunteers of the very best military material are available ?
Will the Minister, on the grounds of health, economy, convenience to country recruits, and decentralization, have recruiting centres and military camps established in the principal town in each Federal country electorate ?
Will the Minister issue regulations so that country recruits in New South Wales, on being accepted and allowed the usual three or four days’ leave in order to settle their private affairs, will be granted a return ticket, and also a return ticket on their final farewell trip, prior to embarkation ?

Mr JENSEN:
ALP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are -

The matter was referred for consideration by the Parliamentary War Committee, whose recommendation, which is as follows, lias been approved by the Government : -

That, in addition to the present system of enlistment, in future men may be enlisted as follows : -

The recruit will be medically examined, and, if fit, sworn in with an arrangement, if he so desires, that he shall have leave of absence, without pay, to a date to be stated bv him; but the Department shall also have the option, with due notice, of deferring the date upon which a recruit shall enter on duty.

Recruiting centres have already been established at the principal towns in the country most suitable for the purpose. Camps have been established in country towns in Victoria - the question of establishing camps in the country in other States is under consideration. The principle of establishing recruiting centres in districts divided up on the basis of Federal country electorates is not considered a good one.
Is being inquired into and a reply will be furnished as early as possible.

page 6079

QUESTION

POSTAL OFFICERS’ INCREMENTS

Mr PIGOTT:

asked the PostmasterGeneral, upon notice -

Is it a fact that officers in New South Wales (Postmaster-General’s Department) in receipt of salaries from £310 per annum to £600 per annum, who received increments on 1st July, 1913, again participated on 1st July, 1914, while the smaller salaried officers in receipt of from £210 per annum upwards, who received increments on 1st July, 1913, did not participate on 1st July, 1914, and, if so, why were increments withheld from the latter?
ls it a fact that 4th class clerks in the Postmaster-General’s Department in Victoria, who received increments on 1st July, 1913, again participated on 1st July, 1914, while officers of the same class and designation in New South Wales, similarly situated in respect to increments from 1st July, 1913, were overlooked as from 1st July, 1914, and, if so, will the Postmaster-General see that the latter are placed on a similar footing - in respect to salary - to their Victorian confreres?

Mr SPENCE:
ALP

– The. following replies have been furnished by the Commonwealth Public Service Commissioner: -

Some officers in receipt of salaries between £310 and £600 per annum who received increases as from 1st July, 1913, also received increases as from 1st July, 1914, while others did not. The same applies to officers receiving salaries between £210 and £300. In cases of both classes of officers where salary was not increased it was for the reason that they were sufficiently remunerated for the work performed.
Some Fourth Class clerks in the PostmasterGeneral’s Department, Victoria, who received increments on 1st July, 1913, were granted increases from 1st July) 1914; others were not. The same applies to Fourth Class clerks in New South Wales. It does not follow because an officer is advanced in one State that those on a similar salary in other States are likewise to be advanced. Each case was considered on its merits, and it is not proposed to make any variation in the increases awarded.

page 6079

QUESTION

WIRELESS MESSAGE CHARGES

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

asked the Postmaster-General, upon notice -

Will he issue instructions that all wireless messages to and from troopships be charged at the rate of 6d. per word, instead of at the present rate of lid. ?

Mr SPENCE:
ALP

– This matter is not within the province of the PostmasterGeneral to decide. I will, however, communicate with the authorities concerned on the subject.

page 6079

QUESTION

MILITARY INSTRUCTORS

Mr YATES:
for Mr. Ozanne

asked the Minister for the Navy, upon notice -

Is the Minister for Defence aware that in the Military Forces are a number of noncommissioned officers of many years’ service and highly qualified to instruct?
Why cannot their services be utilized to instruct members of the Expeditionary Forces ?
Does the Minister believe that the appointing of men to commissioned rank after a few weeks’ training is productive of the maximum benefit ?

Mr JENSEN:
ALP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are -

Yes.
They are being utilized. During the past twelve months 258 have been appointed, and vacancies exist for 277 more.
Only men who volunteer can be appointed, and the best is being made of the material available.

page 6080

QUESTION

INTER-STATE BUTTER TRADE

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

asked the Minister of Trade and Customs, upon notice -

Whether the Minister has taken into consideration the request from the Co-operative Dairy Companies Association set forth in a petition recently presented to Parliament praying for relief in connexion with the embargo placed upon the petitioners by the New South Wales Government preventing them -from trading with the parts of the Commonwealth beyond New South Wales T
Has the Minister yet taken any steps to test the constitutionality of the action or the State Government in prohibiting the export from the States concerned of products such as butter and meat?
What action does the Minister propose to take ?

Mr TUDOR:
ALP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow: -

Yes. 2 and 3. The matter is receiving consideration.

page 6080

QUESTION

CENSORS

Mr McGRATH:

asked the PostmasterGeneral, upon notice -

If he will obtain a return from the respective postmasters giving the number of hours each censor has attended the post-office during the last fortnight?

Mr SPENCE:
ALP

– This is a matter concerning the Department of Defence. Advice has been received from that Department that the information is being obtained, and will be furnished as* early as possible.

page 6080

QUESTION

BEER FOR TRANSPORTS

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

asked the Minister for the Navy, upon notice -

If his attention has been called to a question asked bv the Honorable John Perry, in the New South Wales Assembly, suggesting that the beer supplied to the troopships in Sydney was being purchased from persons with strong pro-German sympathies?
Will the Minister state whether there is any truth in the statement?

Mr JENSEN:
ALP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are -

Yes.
Beer has not been provided in transports since departure of first convoy in October last. Beer was supplied By ship-owners for canteens of first convoy, and it is not known from whom it was obtained.

page 6080

CONSTITUTION ALTERATION (SENATORS’ TERM OF SERVICE) BILL

Motion (by Mr. Hughes) agreed to -

That leave be given to bring in a Bill for an Act to alter section 13 of the Constitution.

Bill presented by Mr. Hughes, and read a first time.

page 6080

SUPPLY BILL (No. 2), 1915-16

Financial Statement.

In Committee of Supply: Debate resumed from 20th August (vide page 6040), on motion by Mr. Fisher -

That a sum not exceeding £16,195,469 be granted to His Majesty for or towards defraying the services of the year ending 30th June, 1916.

Mr SHARPE:

– None whatever. This is what the Brisbane Worker has to say on the subject -

Another sore point with “ Father “ is the application of the £156 exemption to unmarried men. It is thought by many who have given hostages to fortune and prospective citizens to the State that the bachelor should not be exempt beyond £100 per annum.

The argument concludes with these words -

The merely married man without a family is also a tender plant who merits affection, for he has undertaken the support of another unit, and it may not be his fault that he is not a father. The bachelor with an income of over £500 a year should, it is thought by family enthusiasts, be taxed at double rates.

An article on that subject appears in the Brisbane Worker every week, and it must be remembered that probably that form of taxation will be subscribed to by a greater number of supporters of that journal and the party it represents than by the members of any other union or political organization in the Commonwealth. However, the Worker recognises that the unmarried man owes a duty to the Commonwealth, and unless he is prepared to accept his responsibilities as the nation desires him to do, the only way to reach him is to compel him to pay special taxation.

Mr Higgs:

– Many bachelors are supporting dependants.

Mr SHARPE:

– I admit that; but there are also many married men and women who are supporting their parents.

– Draw it mild.

Mr SHARPE:

– I wish the honorable member would not interject, because he knows nothing of this subject. The honorable member states that he has read the report of the Commission which inquired into the operations of the Beef Trust. That report stated definitely that the

American Beef Trust - with which is associated the names of Armour and Company, Swift and Company, and Morris and Company - is here; yet the honorable member would deny that this trust has brought about the present shortage that has been responsible for the action of the South Australian Government in pleading to the Queensland Government to help to feed its starving community. The honorable member for Wakefield laughs. He always laughs when he hears of the existence of poverty, and of the squeezing out of the people of money that they should not have to pay. Let him read the summary of the Judge’s report and then state his opinion as a man whether the Beef Trust is in Australia.

Mr RICHARD Foster:

– The Judge laid out the honorable member in one act.

Mr SHARPE:

– I am not so easily blown out as is the honorable member for Wakefield, who, I am sure, is delighted to know that many of the workers in South Australia arc paying ls. 4d. a lb. for meat. I invite him to listen to these statements which appear in the report -

The past history- of the so-called Beef Trust in other countries renders it necessary that the development of the activities of these three companies in Australia should be carefully followed, and I recommend that for this purpose the Government of the Commonwealth should communicate with the Governments of the several States, and invite their co-operation.

It is improbable that any of these three companies has any present intention of engaging in the local trade in Australia. Their immediate object in coining here is to increase their supplies of refrigerated meat for distribution in the course of their trade in the United Kingdom and the United States.

At the present time they control upwards of one-half of the beef exported to the United Kingdom from South America, and if, in addition, they acquire control over a large part of the output of frozen moat from Australia, the power which they are said to possess already, if acting in combination, of influencing prices in the United Kingdom will be very largely increased. If they combined for the purpose, their organization and financial resources would probably enable them to acquire control over a large proportion of the output from Australia.

The matter is one of Imperial and Argentine, as well as Australian, concern, and I recommend that the Government of the Commonwealth endeavour to arrange with the Imperial Government, and with the Government of the Argentine Republic, for a frequent interchange of communications and opinions in connexion, with future developments, with a view to concerted action, if necessary and practicable, in the event of any detrimental combination of forces being reported.

Mr Manifold:

– Are you including the note issue?

Mr SAMPSON:

The outstanding feature of the financial statement is, in my judgment, a failure to recognise that economy in the expenditure of public money is one of our great needs. I do not wish to suggest that there should be less efficiency, but, rather, that there should be greater efficiency, at a less cost than in the past.

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP

– You want to “ eat your cake and have it.”

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– That has not been the habit of my life. As I have already said, we have by this war been cast on our own resources, and we have to consider the means available to vigorously prosecute that war, and, at the same time, carry on our government. We are promoting an Australian war loan of £20,000,000, and the terms of that loan are, I think, generous. Those in charge of the liquid capital in the country - or that capital which lies most closely to liquid form - would be failing in their duty if they did not recognise the fact that they should place at the disposal of the Government the means necessary to enable us to take our share in this great world contest. The terms associated with the loan are very generous, particularly in view of the drought conditions which have been associated with the industries of the country during the past twelve or eighteen months. Roughly speaking, the wealth of Australia is about £1,700,000,000, the bulk of which is invested in the primary industries; and, in calling for the cash reserves, which the Government should have no difficulty in securing, recognition should be paid to the conditions under which the balance of the country’s wealth is invested. The loan interest rate has been fixed at 4£ per cent., which, judged by various computations, means that the loan, with exemptions from taxation, will be equivalent to an investment at 5£ per cent. This is a very generous rate of interest compared with the returns that have recently been obtained. During the period of drought, much capital invested in the primary industries, not only returned no interest, but was only partially preserved after a severe struggle. Those people whose wealth took the form of liquid cash suffered no loss of capital, and they will, no doubt, be able to take full advantage of the high rate of loan interest; and the effect will be that those members of the community whose wealth is immovably invested will not only have the privilege of paying on their own account whatever taxes are imposed as a result of the expenditure on the war, and any consequent financial stringency, but they will also have the privilege of paying the taxation which would in other circumstances be imposed upon the interest of the capital now invested in this loan. I believe all sections of the community will rise to the present occasion, for I know of no better form of investment than that provided by the war loan, considering the immunity from taxation which interest income will enjoy, but I hope that the Treasurer, when allocating loan bonds, will, as far as possible, endeavour to make allocation in favour of that capital not now at the disposal of the primary or fixed industries of the Commonwealth. Large sums of money are now held by friendly and other societies, and I think these societies cannot help the country in a better way than by placing their funds at the disposal of the Government.

Mr West:

– It is already invested in mortgages.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– Some of it is, I know, but there is a good deal of reserve for which I do not think that a better or more liquid form of investment, bearing in mind the requirements of the societies, can be found. My reason for emphasizing this point is that, as has been pointed out by the honorable member for Wimmera, during the past twelve or fifteen months the country has suffered an internal loss of, at least, seventy or eighty million pounds, and at the present time, when the country is cast upon its own resources, everything possible should be done to further the extension of internal credit. The country has lost 30,000,000 head of sheep, which may be put down at £1 per head.

Mr Webster:

– If they had been sold they would not have realized that amount.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member will probably know that in normal seasons the fair average value of a sheep is 15s. in the wool. To-day that average has gone up to 30s., though I do not believe there is sufficient money in Australia to maintain such’ a price. It will certainly not be produced by a broken or dishevelled clip, for the effects of the drought will be reflected in the weight of the wool clip. Another heavy item of loss is the shrinkage in the wheat harvest- from 100,000,000 bushels in the previous year to 25,000,000 bushels last year. That represents a shortage of 75,000,000 bushels - approximately, £20,000,000. Then there is the shortage of dairy produce, of fruit, and losses in other directions, which may be put down at about £10,000,000, in addition to which must be reckoned the enormous amount expended in maintaining the stock that survived the drought. Very few people, except those actually engaged in pastoral industries or in the associated financial undertakings, know the strain that was experienced in preserving the country’s stock.

Sitting suspended from 6.30 to 7.45 p.m.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– In the past we have relied far too much on borrowing, and we have now to make a choice between what I might call the voluntary system of obtaining revenue, that is internal borrowing, and the compulsory system, that is the imposition of taxation; or we may have a combination of the two. As I have said, the terms on which the war loan has been issued are very generous, and I advise all who have the welfare of the country at heart to make sacrifices, if necessary, to secure the successful flotation ofthe loan, about which I have little doubt. In addition to the losses which the primary producers have recently sustained must be mentioned the losses in connexion with the lambings of 1914 and 1915. Next year we shall be in rather a worse position, so far as our holdings of stock are concerned, than we occupy now, because of consumption in the meantime. We must all deplore the loss of national assets. The country depends for its prosperity chiefly on the export of wool, wheat, beef, mutton, and lamb. The primary producers do not ask for immunity from war taxation, but I ask on their behalf that that taxation may be imposed equitably and fairly. I am not convinced that in the present state of our finances the imposition of an income tax is necessary for war purposes. The rough estimates of the Treasurer show that the public works and general expenditure for the year will be about £3,250,000 in excess of that of last year, and I am not satisfied that by judicious economy a considerable saving could not be effected. I have always advocated in principle the taxation of incomes, and if it can be shown that income taxation is necessary, the proposals now before Parliament will have my support. But I must be satisfied that it is necessary. I recognise that the income tax must be contributed to by all sections of the community. The land taxation of the Labor party discriminates unfairly between those who have invested their money in land, taking the risks of the season, from which no one can protect either his income of his capital, and those who have invested in other securities. Not only does the investor in land often run the risk of losing much of his capital, but he also suffers from depreciation of values, particularly as the result of taxation. While Labour members have advocated the destruction of trusts, combines, and monopolies, they have so far refrained from taxing these combinations. How much of the land taxation is contributed by the shipping ring, the tobacco combine, or any of the great associations of manufacturers and financiers of which they complain ? It seems to me that, under the income tax proposals, there is to he an improper discrimination against the land-owner, there being two rates of tax, one to be imposed on incomes resulting from personal exertion, and the other from the incomes obtained from property. The taxation of an income of £600 - the remuneration of members of this Parliament - the result of personal exertion, is to be a little over £10, but if the produce of property, is to-be over £30. That seems unfair. By the terms of a will, a widow and her family may be dependent on the income of money that” has been invested in property, and should such an investment produce £600 they must pay a tax of over £30, while a Federal politician drawing the same income will pay only £10.

The CHAIRMAN:

– I ask the honorable member not to discuss in detail the provisions of the Income Tax Bill.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– The Government should recognise before finally asking Parliament to pass the schedule that, in the case of money invested in property, while the owner of the industry may pay at personal exertion rates on, say, 50 per cent., he will really pay at the higher rate on the other part of the money subscribed by the capitalist, because the lender will adjust his rate of interest according to the tax. I trust the Government will alter the income period to make it run instead of from the 1st January to 31st December, 1914, to the 1st July, 1914, to the 30th June, 1915, be cause it is a bad principle to legislate for the past, and while the primary industries got fair returns from the harvest of 1913-14, and the subsequent shearing, that money, and more, was exhausted before 31st December, 1914, in an endeavour to save the stock. The income period should, therefore, be reconsidered in fairness to those who are really carrying the chief taxation burden of the war, because those who have their money immovably invested in land or secondary industries, will have to bear the burden of the taxation on the war loan, while those who have free money, and invest it in the war loan, will be exempt from income taxation on it, even if the total borrowed to meet war exigencies reaches £100,000,000. Consequently those engaged in primary and secondary industries will have to pay not only their own taxation, but the taxation which the interest upon the war loan would carry. The honorable member for Wimmera made, I think, an overestimate in computing the total income of Australia at £100,000,000. Our total production is about £230,000,000, coming from primary and secondary industries, but from the value of the production of the secondary industries, there must be deducted the value of the raw material imported. I do not believe that from such a total production we have an income of £100,000,000 a year; £80,000,000 would be nearer the mark. On the figures I gave, the annual production per head would be about £45 - a fact which destroys a good deal of the political capital made by those who advocate the equal distribution of wealth and industry in this country. If we had a highly socialized community with an equal annual distribution of all our wealth on the basis of £45 a head, and that money was spent in the ordinary way, who would fight a war for us ? “Where would the war fund come from 1 Where would the cash reserves be? I understand that the most ideal Socialistic doctrine has never yet made provision for fighting a war.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– No man who knows what Socialism is would be such a fool as to say that.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member should not interject if he cannot use different lauguage. With a production of £45 a head, and a war on top of us, we have to deal with three spheres - production, States expenditure, and the war zone. We cannot supplement our activities at present by borrowing from outside, and there is a clamour that public expenditure and public works should proceed at the old rate. There has been a natural diminution of the resources which support and stimulate production, and enable us to extend it, and the present position is most serious. I am not a pessimist, but we cannot pursue a lavish policy of public expenditure, and also in these times of restriction and financial stringency develop primary production. On the one side economy is the need and obligation of the Government, and, on the other, increased production is the obligation of every citizen who wishes to serve his country at home.

Mr Riley:

– Tell us where you would economize.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– In all public Departments. As regards the items of public works to which the nation is committed,! and which cannot be abandoned, if they amount to £2,000,000 or £3,000,000, I would make them the basis of an internal loan.

Mr Riley:

– More borrowing !

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– The restriction of public borrowing is one of the planks of the Labour platform into which the white ants got long ago. It has gone, and a wholesale borrowing policy has taken its place. Next, I believe strict economy is necessary on the part of the Government. Take, for instance, the maternity allowance. I would give it only to everybody who absolutely requires it.

Mr Riley:

– Make it a pauper dole!

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– I will take up the honorable member’s interjection. The Government have calmly and coolly, at war time, with pressing needs on top of them, laid down the principle that an income of £156 is a fair margin for immunity from taxation. All those in receipt of an income over £156 should, I believe, make provision for this matter them selves, and I would let all those under it receive the bonus. If there are special circumstances in cases where the income is more than £156, they can be met. Why, to use the honorable member’s own words, pauperize the people ? Only the other day the Minister for the Navy defended the Government policy with regard to war pensions on the very ground that the honorable member objects to now.

Mr McGrath:

– He slipped there.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– But the whole Government is with him. It is the Government policy, and the honorable member is behind the Government, and has to help carry the matter through.

Mr MCGRATH:

– I am against them there.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member raises only a faint and distant voice in the matter. The highest form of service that can be given to a country is war service, but the Government which the honorable member supports have determined that there shall be a limit in regard to war pensions, in these times of financial stringency, and have actually fixed that limit. If it be a right principle to pursue in respect to one set of pensions, it should apply equally to those who, perhaps, have less claim to a pension than has the man who has fought for his country. In every Department of the Commonwealth, with the exception of the Treasury, provision is made in the Estimates for an increased expenditure; but I am confident that if the Government and their supporters had to go before the country immediately on the basis of these figures, they would quickly discover that economies could be effected. I recognise that the Government are up against the position that their policy is that of the development of a system of State enterprise, which naturally carries with it the burden of responsibility for State employment in a time of trouble and trade dislocation like the present. How often have we heard earnest appeals made by the honorable member for Cook regarding the responsibilities of the Government in connexion with employment? If I mistake not, there is going to be in Australia an acute struggle for employment. We must all regret the fact, but it cannot be denied that we are face to face with the prospect of much unemployment. It is a matter that we cannot lightly brush aside, and the Government must choose between State enterprise and private enterprise as a means of helping us over our difficulties. The various State Labour Governments are daily launching State enterprises, and levying taxation on private enterprise to enable’ them to be carried on. What’ is more, they are launching these State enterprises and taxing their rivals in trade. The test presently will be as to whether those enga”“‘1 in private enterprises are to dismiss their employees in order that the State may launch and carry on its industries. How many of these new industries are prosperous? We can hope to pull through the present difficulty only by increasing our production.

Mr Sampson:

– And not by stifling it

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– Quite so. That is one way of helping the country.

Mr SHARPE:

– What is the honorable member doing in that direction?

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– Unlike the honorable member, I am doing a great deal more than yelling about the Beef Trust.

Mr Mahony:

– The honorable member is yelling for the “ boodleiers.”

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– It cannot be said that I have ever done that. I listened for three-quarters of an hour this afternoon to a tirade against the Beef Trust bv the honorable member for Oxley, who has discussed the subject again and again in this House, but has never once shown how we should deal with the trust. Under the Constitution the Government have power to “ scotch “ it. It is open to them to prevent the export of any of its products. They can prevent it from carrying on. In Queensland, of which the honorable member for Oxley is a representative, there is in power a Labour Government which could invalidate the Beef Trust’s contracts, and cast its corrupt directors - if there be any - into prison.

Mr MCGRATH:

– Not if those contracts were made in Victoria.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– Even then, the Commonwealth Labour Government could prevent the Beef Trust from carrying on by prohibiting the export of its products. They could also introduce a system of licensing under which it could determine every condition relating to that export trade. I hope we shall hear no more of this yelling about the Beef Trust. We have had enough of it without any suggested remedy.

Mr Riley:

– Like the honorable member’s theory of making two blades of grass grow where only one grew before.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– I commend that theory to my honorable friend, and to the Government of which he is a supporter. That is one direction in which they mav overcome our present difficulties. We certainly shall not do so by taxing those who are struggling gamely to carry on the business of production, and who, yielding to the promptings of many Go vernments, have increased their areas under cultivation. It is not by a process of further taxing these industries that the Government are going to help Australia. They must provide for an equitable system of taxation and not, as the honorable member for Wimmera has pointed out, for a discriminating system of taxation under which the burden has to be borne by the primary producers. An income tax has my absolute support. It is an equitable means of raising revenue, since it reaches every citizen with an income, and in these days all who are enjoying the privileges and the protection of the country should contribute their fair share to the cost of its defence and government. The Government, however, have now an opportunity to show that they recognise that the primary producers have had to contend with very hard times. I have carefully prepared a balance-sheet dealing with the grazing industry in some of the choicest districts in Victoria on the basis of, not a year of drought, but a normal year. It shows that the income from some of these properties in normal times, allowing fair rates for their products, and deducting only trade expenses, is 4 per cent., and in some cases slightly less. The Government have told the country that in these times 4J per cent., plus exemption from income tax, is a fair rate of interest to allow on the war loan. This exemption from- income tax in some cases will mean a return of per cent. If 5£ per cent, is a fair return in the case of a man who does not carry on an industry, but merely holds cold cash and stands on the vantageground of past effort and previous earnings, surely a man who is carrying on grazing operations, and who has had to face a very severe drought during the last twelve months and provide employment, is entitled to a little more than 4 per cent, net when he shoulders such a responsibility. I hope, that the Government will be reasonable, and will exempt from the payment of income tax during the war that proportion of income that is subject to land taxation. That is all I ask. The men on the land have been up against hard times, and many have been ruined. The Government now propose to call upon them to pay an income tax in respect of the worst period they have ever experienced. That is unfair. This wretched discrimination at a time like the present makes one feel a little bitter. With every desire to assist in raising revenue by an equitable system of taxation for defence purposes, I cannot but feel annoyed that the Government should in these times resort to such wretched discrimination.

Mr West:

– If the man on the land has earned no income, he will have no income tax to pay.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– That interjection is right, and yet wrong. In respect of part of the time to which the tax will apply, the primary producers earned no income, but in respect of the remaining part they have had some income. The income from the harvest was secured in February and March ; but long before the twelve months had passed the whole of that income, as well as additional capital, had disappeared. There was an exhaustion of capital, and practically an exhaustion of spirit, The honorable member is too level-headed to be a party to the “little drought” theory.

Mr Mahon:

– I should like to see the basis of the balance-sheet to which the honorable member has just referred.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– I shall not only show the honorable member that balancesheet, but will undertake to place the entire proposition at his disposal, for a fortnight, at the valuation put upon it by his own Federal valuer, and allow him a 10 per cent. discount upon it.

Mr Sharpe:

– None of them surrender very willingly.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– I would like to ask the honorable member if he has taken the trouble to scan any of the lists which set out contributions amounting to £3,000,000 that have been voluntarily subscribed since the outbreak of the war? There he will find the names of many generous donors of whom it ill becomes him to say that they will not readily pay their share of taxation.

Mr Sharpe:

– I was not referring to them.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– As far as those donations are concerned, I think we may well recognise that every section of the community - rich and poor alike - have generously contributed to the patriotic funds, and it ill becomes anybody to say that they have not realized their obligations.

Mr Sharpe:

– I did not refer to the patriotic funds.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member was referring to taxation, I presume.

If they have contributed large sums for patriotic purposes of their own volition, it is only reasonable to suppose that they will gladly pay what is required of them by way of taxation. I have said before that in time of peace, I am an ardent individualist, but in time of war, if we are going to put the responsibility of government

Mr McGrath:

– The honorable member is aSocialist.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member is welcome to any admission I give him. He may use it freely. If we are going to hold those who are in charge of the affairs of this country responsible for the conduct of the war, it is only right that we should yield to them whatever they may reasonably require to prosecute it to a successful issue. All that we require to be satisfied about is that this taxation is necessary. I come now to a matter which I mentioned a little time ago, and upon which, I venture to say, neither the House nor the press was at that time so well informed as it is now. I allude to the taking over by the Commonwealth Government of the entire chartering of freight in connexion with the forthcoming harvest. On that occasion I spoke with some warmth, because I was honestly of opinion that a mistake had been made. Having reviewed all the circumstances, I am still of that opinion. I recognise that freight is the king-pin of the entire wheat trade. If that king-pin be disturbed, the trade, in all its ramifications, will be disturbed. At the time, the AttorneyGeneral handled this matter in a manner which I believed to be a very casual one. We have to recollect that the undertaking will probably involve an expenditure of from £5,000,000 to £6,000,000 for freight. He claimed to have the authority of the States and the cordial co-operation of the entire trade in the arrangement which he had made. I affirmed that he had not made a good bargain, and that it was a mistaken policy on his part to select two members of the trade, to the entire exclusion of their competitors and to say to them, “ Come on. You shall be my elect in this matter.” I also advanced many reasons in support of my view that the bargain was a bad one. The Attorney-General did not attempt to combat my arguments, but, rather impudently, I think, turned upon me, and endeavoured to make it appear that I had levelled an accusation against some of the firms connected with the “ trade. I did nothing of the kind. All I did was to quote from the business-paper for the purpose of showing that an honorable member had placed a certain question there relating to this matter. For three days afterwards the Attorney-General met the representatives of the wheat trade in each State. He interviewed the representatives from the Chambers of Commerce, and others. I know what happened at those interviews, for I have been in close touch with the whole of the interests connected with this business. Until the third day the Attorney-General was unable to arrive at a basis of action. Even to-day he told us that he has not yet concluded the terms of the transaction - that he is still submitting terms as between the various representatives. Without having consulted Parliament, or the whole of the interests concerned, the honorable gentleman has committed the Commonwealth to a possible expenditure of £5,000,000 or £6,000,000 in the chartering of freight. His answer will, doubtless, be that the States are in partnership with the Commonwealth, and will share the financial responsibility in connexion with this matter. But the Age newspaper of the 17th August - and that journal stood as sponsor for the Attorney-General in the bargain which he made - states -

Mr. Hughes had to fight hard to secure the approval of the States’ representatives to his scheme, even with the modifications mentioned. They all admitted that the State Governments had agreed that the ship chartering should be centralized for the season, but at the outset they gave no allegiance to the details. Gradually, by argument and compromise, their resistance was worn down, and at lunch-time yesterday their final approval was given, subject to ratification by their Cabinets - at least the Victorian representatives made that a condition of their approval.

I do not think that the arrangement made by the Attorney-General was the best one that could have been made in the interests of the farmers. However, the Government have ratified his decision, and at the point of the bayonet he has succeeded in getting his unwilling partners into line with him.

Mr West:

– What does “ at the point of the bayonet “ mean ?

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– That is about on a level with the honorable member’s usual interjections. As a matter of fact, I had a private chat with the Attorney-General on this matter, and I told him that I did not believe in the arrangement which he had made. But, assuming that all the interests concerned now cordially concur in that arrangement, what does it mean? Freight is one of the first lines of the wheat shipper. His ability to buy freight better than his competitor is a matter of material importance to him . His ability to sell cargo cheaper than his competitor furnishes him with another means of operating successfully. But under the arrangement which has been made by the AttorneyGeneral, his ability to operate will be crippled. While the Attorney-General disturbed that arrangement, he was unable to get from those who accepted this responsibility on behalf of the Commonwealth an undertaking that they could secure the whole of the freight necessary, or a definite agreement as to the price at which they could secure it. I have previously stated that I have no interest in this question except that of the producer. I have no interest in the operators, although, of course, the producers are always in touch with those who buy their wheat. The AttorneyGeneral has previously posed as the antagonist of trusts and combines, and now he undertakes to fight the biggest shipping combines on the other side of the world. He is acting as the representative of the Commonwealth, which is responsible for 3 or 4 per cent, of the world’s production of wheat, and he claims that by his entry into the business he can fight those combines in such a way as to be able to secure for the Commonwealth freights much cheaper than they would be provided by private enterprise. The commercial world will be very interested in seeing how the Attorney-General emerges from this contest, and many of those who support him in politics will wonder why he chooses to fight the shipping combines by employing the agents of those combines. Messrs. Elder, Smith, and Company are agents for many big companies, including one line with a total tonnage of 221,500,’ whilst Messrs. Gibbs, Bright, and Company represent the Commonwealth and Dominion Line, which controls 259,000 tons of shipping. Consider the peculiar position that Australia stands in when the producers have to rely on the Attorney-General to make the best bargain possible for cheap freights for their wheat, and the Attorney-General, in turn, must depend on the agents of some of the shipping lines in order to make that bargain.

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP

– The Ministers of Agriculture approve of the scheme.

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

– It took the AttorneyGeneral, with all his strategy, three days to get the agreement ratified by the State Ministers at the point of the bayonet. Here, again, we have another illustration of the fact that Parliament is to be committed to its proportion of a liability of from £5,000,000 to £6,000,000 in respect of freights. The whole Commonwealth will anxiously await the result of the bargain that has been made. If the results show that a better arrangement has been made for the farmers by the Attorney-General than could have been made by private enterprise, I will be surprised, and I will be generous enough, to admit to the AttorneyGeneral in this chamber that his means were better than those previously employed. My conviction is that ultimately, as a result of this scheme, Australia will lose the genuine competition of wheat shippers; those who previously employed their capital in the wheat business will operate less freely, and the ultimate loss will fall on those engaged in the farming industry, and nobody else.

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
Darwin

– In the course of this debate excellent speeches have been delivered by the honorable members for Cook, Balaclava, Oxley, and Wannon. I have always regarded finance as a non-party question. I have had no feeling against honorable members opposite because they are the creators and inheritors of the present system of Australian finance. They have never made any claim to be the champions of great financial reforms. They have entered this Parliament solely on the reputation of their ancestors They did not come here because of great ideas regarding financial, industrial, and commercial progress.

But ever since 1893 I have heard the members of the party to which I belong advocating reform, not alone in legislation, but also in administration, finance, and industry, and in the whole commercial and social world - organization, mobilization, utilization, and spiritualization.

All those proposals I have listened! to for twenty years, and when I entered this Parliament, fourteen yearsago, having been elected in Tasmania as an independent Protectionist, I thought that long before fourteen years had’ passed, if the Labour party attained1 power in the Commonwealth, the financeeof Australia would be organized in such’ a way that there would be no unemployment. Yet here we are to-day, and, lo’ and behold, Australia is the same as shewas. She wears the same dress, and the same kind of hat; she looks into the samemirror, and she uses the same paint and! powder.

After five long years of Labour government we are simply stepping into the market again in the good old Conservative game of borrow, boom, and: burst. To me such a state of affairs is sad; it may not be so to men who have not given consideration to this question.

I find that this year there will be a deficit of £53,500,000, and we have no solution to offer except the old one of floating a loan, and asking the “boodleiers” to put up the boodle. Then we propose, in this time of stress, a system of taxation, which, I admit, is the only expedient to adopt owing to lack of foresight in the past.

Mr Sampson:

– The cardinal error was made when the Government failed to accept your scheme of 1908.

In days gone by the curse of Australian banking was that just as soon as a few men were out of work, or a few withdrew their balances, the banks became scared and called up all their loans, thus precipitating a crisis. That, however, has not been the experience in England, for in times of stress the Bank of England expanded its credits and helped the crowd.

The Commonwealth Government must do the same thing in Australia, but it ought to be done on an organized system, and not under the direction of the ordinary officials, who are not business men. They are not business men because they have had no chance to be. They are honest and sincere enough, and they mean well, but they do not understand anything about such’ matters as this.

Shortly after the war broke out, Sir George Paish, the financial expert, was sent to America to arrange the finances and the international medium of exchange between the Old Country and America. Unfortunately, the Allies had to make immense purchases in America of all kinds of supplies. At the beginning of the war the people of the United States of America owed the Old Country some §400,000,000. This money was met by letters of credit, bills of exchange, sight drafts, acceptances, utilized in England and yet not paid in America. The business men of England were so corned over the situation that they declared a moratorium for a month. Sir George Paish was sent to America, and, under arrangements made by him, $200,000,000 were sent to Ottawa to liquidate the obligations in England. In the meantime a start was made to get supplies, and the balance of trade changed until at the end there was $1,000,000,000 in favour of America. At that time you could go to any broker or banker in the United States - east, west, north, or south - and if you had a British sovereign you could get in return for it $4 87 cents. ; but the exchange became so strong against Great Britain that the value fell to $4 5 cents. Pierpont Morgan came out of his sick room, where he had been suffering after being shot by a German ; and he was able to take his part again, to liquidate his obligations, and exchange is rising in the market. But what I say is that the international system of exchange is an international method of fraud; and the reason is that the capitalists of the world have made gold the basis of the world’s credit.

The total gold ,in the whole world is not a fortieth part of the wealth of the world. In other words, the United States to-day, according to the last financial census, is worth $200,000,000,000, or about £45,000,000,000, while the total gold in the United States is about $3,000,000,000, or £600,000,000. Yet the whole of the wealth of the United States is based on this £600,000,000.

As to Australia, Mr. Knibbs is very careful not to give a statement of the wealth. When I was in the Ministry it was proposed to bring out a statement showing the wealth of this country; but we could never arrive at it, and when we did get a little forward, the Senate upset the idea, Senator St. Ledger asserting that we were going into people’s private pockets. Now, however, it is proposed to go into people’s private boots, and to do it under a scare which did not influence me at the time of which I have spoken.

I calculate that the public debt of Australia, including that of municipalities, boards of works, and so forth, is £450,000,000, while the private debt is £300,000,000, so that the people of Australia owe publicly and privately - though, of course, we have great assets in our railways and other works - about £750,000,000. Of course, this includes deposits in the banks, private and public, representing about £250,000,000, against which there is a paid-up capital of about £25,000,000- all beyond the paid-up capital and reserves is liability. However, it is owing to our own people. Then, we have the mortgages of the nation. If we deduct the £750,000,000, I calculate that Australia is worth about £1,200,000,000 sterling, which would give a clear asset of about £450,000,000. That’ is what we are worth - that is the wealth of Australia.

The total gold in Australia to-day is about £34,000,000, and the whole of the £450,000,000, and the debt of £750,000,000, rests on that gold. Supposing that to-night, Divine Providence sent forth a cyclone which split the earth just where the vaults of the banks are, and the whole dropped on the upper crust of Hades - would the business of Australia stop ? Would we get our salaries next month? Would the tenants pay up? Would anybody pay up ? I am only saying this to show the folly of a nation - the folly of an intelligent people - basing the wealth of the nation on a gambling proposition that is in the hands of a few gold-bug monopolists.

Why? I shall tell you why; and it is easy and simple to understand. If you purchase goods in England, while another man purchases goods in America, and a third purchases somewhere else, under our present international system of liquidation it is not a debt at all. It is only a banker’s proposition - only a banker’s extension of credit. Let us look at the position for a moment. Australia is the biggest wool producer on earth. Australia is the second tin producer on earth. Australia is the third or fourth copper producer on earth. Australia is about the fifth wheat producer on earth. Australia is about the third lead producer on earth. Australia is about the-fourth silver producer. Australia has all these natural inherent productions - they are here and belong to the country - and yet, to-day, Australian business is tied up on a little bit of gold.

John Bull represents the second richest nation on earth. The world owes John Bull to-day some £3,500,000,000, and the world has to pay John Bull about £160,000,000 net in interest every year. John Bull has been the world’s banker, and London is the chief city of the world’s exchange. When I was in a bank in New York, and we desired to settle with Russia or Prance, we used to buy on London. There are two kinds of exchange - direct and indirect. If you wish to settle with Russia, you buy on London, and London settles with Russia; because every nation in the world keeps an account in London, though I believe that now the centre has changed to New York.

The total gold in England is not over £160,000,000 or £170,000,000. Why? Why should John Bull, to whom tie world owes £3,500,000,000, and who has financed every nation on earth, stop his business now for the want of gold ? Why should the exchange be against England ? Simply because John Bull himself laid it down that he was the gold bug of the world. He used to raise the exchange, and everybody loosened their purses and let the gold flow to London; and when he had all the gold he wanted, he lowered the exchange, and the gold went out again. Gold is a woman - gold is timid; indeed, money is always timid. Now, if that be so - and no one will deny it - why should the British nation make its basis gold ? If ever there was a time in the history of the world when some one should have the courage to change the whole of the ramifications and fabric of the system of finance it is the present.

– Though nothing in the world is worth having except love, we have to labour before we can winit. They say that love is blind, but marriage removes the cataracts from the eyes. However, I wish to keep to my subject.

– I shall be able to pay the income tax, or any other tax I am called upon to pay. The honorable member need not worry about me. I did not come to Australia for my health.

I was saying that I did not like this £10,000,000 from the banks. The Commonwealth should not be at the mercy of private banking corporations whenever they think the occasion suitable to call up their loans.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– Why does not the honorable member let us have his own scheme ?

Mr KING O’MALLEY:

– Had my scheme been in existence there would have been no need for this difficulty. Clause 7 of it was -

That the bank shall be empowered to issue notes, which shall be throughout the Commonwealth legal tender at all places except the head office of the bank in each State, and that at such head office payment of the value of notes presented may be made in gold, or Commonwealth consols at the option of the ComptrollerGeneral of the bank.

There could never be a run on my bank. That clause was framed as the result of experience. I know it is like a tiger baying at the moon to try to move this House. They say the system is perfect. We ought not to be at the mercy of private banking corporations.

Take another clause -

That the banks shall provide for temporary advances by way of overdraft to the Commonwealth, State, and municipal Governments.

And so this Bank should be ; but the present Bank is a little one. It is a very little Bank to face a great crisis, and it is a little Bank, because the national income of the Australian States is not flowing through it. If the income of the Australian States had been there flowing through it, we need not have borrowed £20,000,000 from the Australian people. We might, instead, have given a credit on the ledger of that Bank for £20,000,000. You do not spend £20,000,000. You only spend a part of it, and long before the £20,000,000 would have been spent most of it would have been back in the Bank.

Sir Robert Best:

– How would you have paid for the troops in Egypt and Gallipoli 1

Mr KING O’MALLEY:

– By arranging with the bank in England or in Egypt.

Sir Robert Best:

– But they would not have taken notes.

Mr KING O’MALLEY:

– Surely the honorable member does not consider that notes are everything. I consider that notes are only a subsidiary power. Notes are only the capital of a national bank. We hear too much about notes in Australia. A cheque currency is infinitely superior to notes. An acceptance currency is infinitely superior to notes. A bill of exchange and a promissory note are both currency. A deposit currency is superior to notes. The note is not the only currency. We have gone note mad in Australia. Every one talks about the notes. I do not know that I would issue notes1 at all. I see nothing in it. How many notes are there in circulation ? Is there £20,000,000 ? Is there £10,000,000 ? I made a calculation a few years ago, and, in my opinion, the total money required in all the continent of Australia to carry on the whole of the business of Australia is about £6,000,000. The medium of exchange is money; but it is only in little transactions that you use money.

The true medium of exchange is fortified credit. You huy for the purpose of selling, and you sell for the purpose of liquidation, and credit expands in proportion to the expansion of business, ‘and contracts in proportion to the contraction of business. So tEat a note issue cuts no ice. But I do say that with a National Australian Bank, in which the States were interested, and in which the representatives of the Savings Banks of the different States sat round a table with the Governor of the Bank, each man bringing to the table his ripe experience, each having equal voting powers with the Governor of the Bank, “the Governor of the Bank having the casting vote, you would have had a great, consolidated amalgamation of financial Australia. You would have had the collected financial power of the nation utilized from this Bank for the benefit of the individual. Instead of that, you have got a nice little circus down here : but she is so small that she is not able to see herself. I think the foundation is all right, and you can build from it.

Take another clause - my scheme -

That the Bank shall be the Bank of reserve for the deposit of the reserves of the banking companies operating in the Commonwealth.

I desire with the permission of the House to read a few paragraphs from the London Statist - Sir George Paish’s magazine - of 6th August, 1910. This was given to me by Mr. Knibbs, our eminent Statistician, and I wish to read a leading article which appeared in it on my banking proposals -

In April, 1900, the Hon. King O’Malley, M.P., submitted to the House of Representatives of the Commonwealth of Australia a memorandum for the establishment of a national postal bank

That is the heading. Then the article goes on -

In this memorandum Mr. O’Malley proposes that the Bank shall be conducted purely as a Government Department, free from political control; that it shall have all the powers and immunities requisite to its security, the recovery of its debts, and the disposal of its property.

Then it says -

He proposes, further, that the Bank shall act as the agent for the Mint in the purchase of raw gold and silver, and the issue of coin.

Is the Commonwealth Bank doing that? -

That it shall be empowered to issue notes which shall be legal tender throughout the Commonwealth^ at all places except the head office of the Bank in each State; and that at each head office payment of the value of the notes presented may be made in gold or Commonwealth consols at the option of the ControllerGeneral of the Bank.

I hope the Committee will follow me so as to see how this great British financier ends up.

The sting is in the tail -

In addition to this, Mr O’Malley proposes that the Bank is to be the Bank both of the Commonwealth and the States, and also that it is to be authorized to carry on ordinary banking business, receiving from the public moneys on current account and fixed deposit, and making advances on good security; that the management of the Bank shall consist of a Controller-General representing the Commonwealth, and one representative of each of the subscribing States.

I -want the Committee to listen to this -

That the Treasurer of the Commonwealth shall be entitled ito attend all meetings and inspect all proceedings of the board of management; that all payments made in London by the Commonwealth or State Governments shall be through the medium of the Bank; that the General Post Office in each capital shall be the head office of the Bank in that State; and that any post-office within the Commonwealth carrying on the business of a money-order office may be constituted a branch of tlie Bank.

I am reading these extracts for the purpose of showing honorable members that this great Britisher put everything in. He was not deceived. I do not suppose that he was ever a member of the Labour party-

That the Bank shall be a bank of reserve for the deposit of reserves of the banking companies operating in the Commonwealth, and that the regulations requisite for controlling the bank reserves shall be drawn up by the Board of Management of the Bank and the Council, of the Associated Banks of Australia and approved by the Governor-General in Council.

I thought it was only right that the leading man of the associated banks should be at the table, even though we did not take his advice. His advice may be good -

Mr. O’Malley ‘s scheme was probably suggested to him by the agitation in the United States which followed the banking crash at theend of 1907.

It was not suggested to me then. It was suggested -to me after I had been two years in my uncle’s bank. I saw that there ought to be a service outside different from that of private men. I did not understand how a man could start with §10,000, and, after a period of forty years, have $15,000,000 at pure banking, unless “she” was a pretty good business. Continuing, this financier says -

There has long been in the United States a strong opposition to a State Bank, but for some years now the opposition has been growing weaker and weaker.

Even the Americans, the great individualists of the world, have realized at last that it is necessary to have a central banking system whereby you can back up the other institutions, whereby you can back up the nation, whereby you can help to develop the resources of the country and furnish employment to the masses -

Indeed, since 1907 the notion of a State bank has been waxing in favour. It will be further recollected that Congress appointed a Commission to inquire into the whole question of banking, and though the Commission has not yet reported, it is believed that its report will be in favour of the establishment of a State Bank.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– I think that the report is in now.

Mr KING O’MALLEY:

– I know that the report is in. They have twelve original banks, and my honorable friends see that in the crisis now there is no trouble, for there is money to burn there -

AIT- that, no doubt, is true; but probably Mr. O’Malley would reply that there was a great banking crisis in Australia. Seventeen or eighteen years ago which proved the need for reform; that now when Federation has taken place, and a Labour Government is in office, eager to carry out far-reaching reforms -

Sir George Paish, at the head of the article, says that this is a debtor country. I admit that I drew a banking system for a debtor country. A lending country, that is, a country which is lending credit to the world, need not bother about this, because everybody must come to it, but we must go to everybody, because ours is a developing country. We have a territory comprising 3,000,000 square miles. We are a nation second to the United States of America in geographical dimensions, yet we have a population of only 5,000,000, and a very small amount of capital. After all, you cannot develop a country without capita) any more than you can without labour. Labour and capital must go together. For years the men of Australia never recognised that it was necessary to placate Labour.- If they had only sat round a table and talked to the Labour men, there would have been no trouble. Labour men are humans with hearts. Sit down and talk to them. Often and often, when I was in the Camperdown district, I used to hear every one speak well of the honorable member for Corangamite. Why? Because his rule was to go round and talk to the tenants, to have a yarn with them, and help them if it was necessary.

Mr Brennan:

– How these landlords love one another !

Mr KING O’MALLEY:

– No; it is no such feeling. This financial writer continues -

It will be seen, from what we have said above, that Mr. O’Malley’s proposal is to establish a Government Bank more nearly resembling the Imperial Bank of Russia than any other great State Bank we know of. The Bank is to be the Government Bank just as the Bank of England, the Bank of France, and the German Reichsbank are Government Banks. But the Bank of England, the Bank of France, and the German Reichsbank are all owned by private shareholders. Mr. O’Malley proposes that the new Bank shall be owned by the Commonwealth Government and the Governments of the States if the States agree to subscribe. If they do not, then it will be owned by the Commonwealth Government alone. The Imperial Bank of Russia is owned by the Russian Government; indeed, is practically a Department of the Russian Treasury. It appears to be a fairer plan than the German; for, while the shares of the German Reichsbank are owned by private investors, the Government begins to share in the dividends with the shareholders when the latter receive a certain rate of dividend. But it remains to he seen whether a purely Government Bank will work as satisfactorily as a bank founded on the principle of, let us say, the Bank of England or the Bank of Prance, or the Imperial Bank of Germany. Will it be possible to exclude party considerations from the management of the bank, and especially from the selection of the ControllerGeneral?

He emphasizes the question, Will it be possible to exclude political interference with the bank I

Sir John Forrest:

– No.

Mr KING O’MALLEY:

– That has been done.

Sir John Forrest:

– No.

Mr KING O’MALLEY:

– There has never been political interference in connexion with’ the Commonwealth Bank.

Sir John Forrest:

– Wait until the Bank authorities do something that the honorable member’s party does not like.

Mr KING O’MALLEY:

- Sir George Paish said -

If the Governments of Australia are public spirited enough and independent enough to refuse to listen to party, there is no reason why a great officer selected by the Government should not manage a bank to the benefit of all interests in the Commonwealth. But if the Governments listen to party, it is to be feared that the proposed bank, if established, will excite strong party opposition, and that it will, like the bank of the United States a couple of generations ago, come to be regarded with great distrust by a large portion of the community.

We can hardly believe that the Government intends to take away from the shareholders of the existing Australian banks the right of note issue. We know of no evidence that shows that these banks have abused the right; and it would bo a high-handed thing to deprive them of a privilege which they have not abused. A fairer course would be to adopt some such principle as was adopted by Sir Robert Peel in 1844-5, namely, that if, for any reason, any of the existing banks should cease to issue notes, the right of issue should pass to the Government Bank. In any case, if the proposal really is made, we presume that compensation will be awarded for the right taken away. Assuming that the existing banks are treated with justice, as we take for granted they will be, we see no reason why they should be less prosperous in the future than they have been in the past. A’ great Government bank will, of course, have great prestige, and if the Government follows out the idea of Mr. King O’Malley, and makes the postoffices in all important towns branches of the new bank, it will be able to compete formidably with the old banks. But Australia is only just about to enter upon the period of expansion. That is to say, if, by every justifiable means, it encourages the immigration of desirable settlers, if it conducts a great policy of irrigation, and if it opens up every part of the territory by railway construction, then art immense impulse will be given to the trade of the country, and one great bank, even though it be the Government bank, will be incapable of supplying the needs of the population. The existing banks need not fear that they will be unable to play a great part in thaisland continent. In France, for example, the Bank of France is required by law to supply accommodation in every portion of the country. The Bank of France stands as high in credit as it is possible to conceive, and it does its work in a most admirable manner. Yet it does not prevent private banks from doing .a very large business. For example, the Credit Lyonnais has a much larger capital than the Bank of France, and does an immense business outside France, as well as within it. Furthermore, a great Government bank holding the reserves of the other banks would be a tower of strength to them in time of crisis.

Mr Fleming:

– What about the option to redeem the notes in gold or consols? What does Sir George Paish say about that?

Mr KING O’MALLEY:

– That arrangement was suggested to meet a possible run upon the Bank. Sir George Paish praised it. He knows that the scheme was drafted by a trained man, not by a heaven-born, untrained financier - I am glad that the members of this Parliament have time to look into this matter now. I do not blame my party for not having given effect to everything that I suggested.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– It paid the honorable member a great compliment by adopting part of his scheme.

Mr KING O’MALLEY:

– I admit that; but the Brisbane Conference of 1908 accepted the whole scheme, and had effect been given to it, we should not now need to borrow in the manner proposed, because we could get a credit on the ledger of the Bank. As it is, we have to withdraw £20,000,000 of the operating capital of Australia, and to expend it in the production of material for destruction. I admit that I have applied for a portion of the loan myself. Several persons have told me that they will not renew loans at per cent, which they have made on the security of farm and suburban property.

The Commonwealth war loan has increased the value of money, and when renewals are asked for they will be, in many cases, refused, and in others 6 and 6-£ per cent, interest may be charged. The value of money is determined by the rate at -which it will accumulate, and the value of property by the rent obtained from it. If the rent of a property will not amount to the estimated value of the property in as short a time as the interest on a given sum of money will equal the principal, that property will depreciate until its rent hears the same proportion to its value as the rate of interest on money bears to the principal that produces it. These are ideas that were inculcated in my mind in the bank in which I was trained. The interest on money governs rents and property values, money being the legal representative of property and the standard by which its value is measured. If interest on money be fixed at a just rate, rents will be equitably regulated, and labour will secure its fair share of production. But the value of property depreciates in proportion to the increase of the value of the money that registers it. As the value of money increases by the rise of interest, the value of property falls correspondingly. The movement may be compared to that of the beam of a scale on the fulcrum. Enough property must be added to the scale to make the income from it equal the income from interest, otherwise no capitalist would invest his capital in property. Men who have been battling to secure an income from property will do their best to invest their money in the war loan. As soon as I can get my money in I shall put it into the loan, which really equals a 5£ per cent, investment, free from battling or bother. The question, however, is what will happen if all Australia does the same.

We have in this country £250,000,000 of deposits and £34,000,000 of gold. A paid-up capital of £26,000,000 more makes altogether £60,000,000, which, deducted from the £250,000,000 of deposits, leaves £190,000,000, really representing debts, because it is a mistake to think that bank deposits represent wealth.

They represent merely the extension of credit. The fact that .we have £190,000,000 of bank deposits simply means that our producers and traders have exchanged their credit for bank fortified credits, and thus these deposits mean simply an expansion of credits or debts, with the exception of the little gold that the workers put in.

I remember that on one occasion in America the deposits decreased in less than a week in a time of crisis by $500,000,000, and yet we had $30,000,000 more gold in the banks than ever we had before. It simply meant a contraction of credit. I have been preaching this gospel for twenty-five years now to the people of Australia, my first letters being to the South Australian Register; but I cannot rouse the people to a real sense of the position.

We hear constantly that trade and commerce follows the flag. It does not. It follows fortified credits, which follow the lines of banking operations. The flag makes no difference to the bankers of the world. If they think their bills of exchange and letters of credit can be cashed at a reasonable amount they do not trouble about what flag is there. No one will deny that interest is the damnation of the human race. We have paid over £300,000,000 in interest, and still owe £450,000,000. It means practically that we owe it for ever, and therein lies the danger. If we had had the gumption and determination to organize Australia financially, and mobilize our instruments of exchange and credit for the benefit of our people, so that we would have control of all the available resources of the nation, there would be no necessity for the States to worry next December about what they are to do with the thousands of men they have employed.

I do not represent Darwin only in this Chamber.

Mr Fleming:

– Which end of the link does the honorable member represent? “

Mr KING O’MALLEY:

– In this House I do not worry myself about what prehistoric freaks have said. My only regret is that God allowed them to come into the world without stretching them.

I regret that we have been plunged into a great war, for war is absolute savagery. When the Indians were fighting in western America, we regarded a dead Indian only as a good Christian. They were savages, and it is awful to see the most intelligent nations of Europe struggling to annihilate each other. When the war is over, the nations of Europe will be practically bankrupt, and millions of our people will be starving. Germany has been organized, not only industrially, but financially. All over Germany to-day there are credit banks, backed by the Government, which assist the farmers, and they do this by credits.

Mr Archibald:

– But have the Germans learnt the difference between right and wrong?

Mr KING O’MALLEY:

– I admit that they are savages, but if a system is good we should adopt it, no matter from where it comes. Germany has given the world one of the greatest systems of organization ever known. The three great systems of -the world are the Roman Catholic Church, the Standard Oil Company, and the German Empire.

Interest is the governing power or leading standard, and, although a man may not be in debt, if the rates of interest in the country in which he resides are high, be has to suffer. Interest forces all the producers of a nation to involuntarily contribute to the maintenance of all the nonproducers. A keen old North of Ireland man, who would climb a greasy pole for “ a bob,” and who, by the way, was my uncle, once gave me the best definition of a banker that I have ever had. He had a strain of Scotch blood in him, and such a cross is sufficient to “ beat the earth.” He defined a banker as “ a dealer in debts and a seller of credit.” That is absolutely true.

Interest is the standard or governing power which forces all the people of a nation to pay it whether they are in debt or not. A man who is selling goods or operating a big business is probably in debt, and, in order to pay his own interest, and to live by the purchase and sale of goods, he must buy at the lowest price, and when he sells to the producer he must add a certain percentage to pay his own interest bill, as well as to maintain himself and his family. There must be a certain difference to enable all those who live by income from interest to live without labour. That being so, interest must be the governing power.

Interest at 1 per cent, doubles itself in sixty-nine years, at 2 per cent, it doubles itself in thirty-five years, at 3 per cent. in twenty-three and a quarter years, and at 4 per cent, in eighteen years. How much money have we in Australia at less than 4 per cent. 1 Interest is an appalling tax on the people of Australia. Every debt that we pile up in this country falls on the backs of the workers, and is for all time a heavy mortgage upon them. That is what I have endeavoured to avoid in this House.

Before closing, I wish to refer to the proposal to erect a Rifle Factory at Canberra. This has been recommended by the Government experts. I wish they would keep themselves well posted up in what is appearing in the American newspapers. Here, for instance, is an article on “The Passing of the Rifle,” from which we learn that British, as well as German and American, experts declare that tlie rifle, except for sport, is a thing of the past -

The rifle is doomed, the Germans say. and its place is to be taken by the machine gun. The present war has demonstrated that this deadly instrument is a most effective weapon of offence, though up to now it has been regarded in the British Army, at least, purely as a means of defence…..

Mr Hampson:

– Experts used to say that the bayonet was obsolete.

Mr KING O’MALLEY:

– It really is, but, owing to want of ammunition, the British have had to use it. They ha ve had to close with the enemy in order to do some fighting. Let honorable members react the whole history of the war, and they will see that if it had not been for the bayonet - owing to lack of ammunition - - it would have been a case of God help the British’ Army. Listen to this -

Why do the Germans no longer pay much attention to the cult of the rifle? Why ‘are the Germans working night and day to turn out a machine gun no heavier than the old Brown Bess, and more deadly than the concentrated fire of an entire company? The answer to these questions was given at Neuve Chapelle and La Bassee, and at the sector of Ypres; it is an answer driven home with deadly effect from many ruined cottages, many dismantled farm-houses, and many coveted trenches, wherever the hordes of Germany are facing the armies of the Allies.

– That sounds like the Caucus.

Mr KING O’MALLEY:

– No; the Caucus would not listen to that. The sane way to meet the case is by the following plan: -

The legal ascertainment of how much money is actually invested in a monopoly.
The legal limitation of dividends on the investment to 6 per cent., or such lower rate as in the future may be found to be practicable.
The legal standardizing of monopoly combination; taxation throughout the Commonwealth at something like 4 per cent, on the gross income. With these three principles, established, let the “boodleiers” go ahead and consolidate to their hearts’ content. This involves a. system of national incorporation along lines that are feasible.

Mr STUMM:
Lilley

.- I do not intend to attempt to follow the honorable member, who has just delivered a long and interesting address on a subject with which he is very familiar. But I think that he will have to preach his gospel for a long time before he will make converts of a majority of his own party. They have had a golden opportunity of putting his principles into force, and, so far, they have not made the slightest attempt to even give them a trial. I have risen mainly for the purpose of replying to what was said by the honorable member for Oxley on the subject of the Beef Trust. The honorable member showed a good deal of courage in returning to that subject, having regard to the inglorious part he played before the Commission presided over by Mr. Justice Street. It was mainly because of the speeches made by the honorable member, inside and outside this Parliament, that that Commission was appointed ; but what was his attitude towards it? He did not present himself for examination until the day before the Commission left Queensland. When the Commission opened its proceedings, the honorable member did not come forward and say, “ I have made these accusations, your Honour, and I am prepared to prove them; I desire that Soandso be called.” No; he lay low for a time, and when he did give evidence, what did it amount to ? Let me quote to the Committee an illustration of the sort of evidence which the honorable member tendered -

He did not know of any act which showed that the Trust was receiving direct aid from the Queensland Government.

Be it remembered that it was part of the honorable member’s stockintrade to accuse the Queensland Government of wrongfully supporting the Beef Trust-

Hie understood that Armours were having ^cattle treated by Birt and Company. It was understood that that was so, but he had no specific facts or definite information beyond that; he must have seen in some newspaper that the Beef Trust controlled the meat market in Berlin, but he could not say just then where he got the information; his reference to Swift and Company having secured the Ross River and Lake Creek works were based on rumours prevalent at the time; he was not in a position to give any facts to support his statement that the Trust had bought the Biboorha Meat Works, or the Burketown Meat Works; his statement that Swift had purchased Baynes’ works was based on a report received from a man working for him; he knew the statement had been denied; he could not support with facts his statement that the Beef Trust had secured all the meat works on the Brisbane River except one.

Mr Fleming:

– The honorable member for Oxley repeated that information tonight.

Mr STUMM:

– That is so. The fact of the matter is, that although the honorable member poses as an authority on the meat question, he knows precious little about it. He had an opportunity of proving before Mr. Justice Street what his opinion was worth, but he failed to take advantage of the opportunity, and to-night he had not even the decency to quote correctly from the report submitted by the Royal Commission. This is what Mr. Justice Street said in the summary of his report -

Since the removal of the import duty on meat by the United States Government last year, these companies, and others engaged in the trade in the United States, have made purchases through distributing agents in Australia and elsewhere for shipment to the United States.

All the foregoing purchases have been made in the ordinary course of business, and there is nothing to indicate that they were not made under ordinary competitive conditions.

There is no evidence of anything in the shape of combination) or concerted action, on the part of these companies in Australia.

The rumours that these companies, or some of them, have (a.) purchased pastoral properties, (6) paid higher than ruling rates for live stock, (o) endeavoured to purchase unborn stock, and (d) endeavoured to secure an option over young stock for future delivery at maturity, are all without any foundation in fact.

The past history of the so-called Beef Trust in other countries renders it necessary that the development of the activities of these three companies in Australia should be carefully followed.

Mr Webster:

– That is the point.

Mr STUMM:

– It is not my fault that nothing has been done. For years I have been battling on this subject. I have never lost an opportunity of drawing attention to the necessity for reforms, and I shall continue to do so until some change is made. I am hopeful that, since Mr. Anderson has indorsed what the Royal

Commission recommended, the Government will do something. Had the recommendations of the Royal Commission been carried out, we would not have had chaos in the Postal Department, nor the present deficit, nor any of the conditions now prevailing there. I would like to know whether the Postmaster-General has read this report, and whether he realizes the fact that the present system of centralization is eating at the heart of the Department. I am sure that if he realized it he would move in the direction of remedying this state of affairs. If any PostmasterGeneral should bring his Department into such a condition as would give the best service to the public at the least possible expense, without doing any injustice to the officers employed, it would be a lasting credit to him. Yet that is the problem that has to be solved. Mr. Anderson points out that there is a deficiency of £501,000, and he recommends how it should be made up.

Mr Watt:

– How would the honorable member meet the case of a State such as Victoria, which is showing no loss?

Mr WEBSTER:

– The difference between Victoria and New South Wales is largely explained by the vast area which has to be covered by the Department in New South Wales. The distances over which services have to be rendered in New South Wales are much greater than in the case of Victoria. Mr. Anderson proposes to make up the deficit by increasing the charges. He proposes to increase the rates on newspapers from1d. for 20 ozs. to1d. for 10 ozs., and in that way derive £50,000, and to increase the telephone rates. Had the recommendations of the Postal Commission been adopted five years ago that trouble would not exist to-day.

Mr Austin Chapman:

– An increase in the calls will mean a reduction in the rents derived.

Mr WEBSTER:

– That is a problem that I am not here to answer. This is how Mr. Anderson proposes to meet the deficit -

– The present attitude

Of the Postmaster-General on this question seems to be displayed by the contempt with which members are treated when they say anything bearing upon the Department. The Postal Commission urged the necessity for the employment of three men, each possessing special knowledge of the various branches of the Postal Services, and I think any reasonable man will agree that underlying that suggestion was the germ of practical common sense. I do not know how that position is regarded to-day. I do not know whether the view is held that the time has arrived when changes’ should be made or not, or whe’ther the Department will be content to merely put on the proposed extra charges, and then continue in the same old groove of centralization and circumlocution that is both strangling the Department and undermining the ability of its officials. Mr. Anderson points out that from the top of the Service right down to the bottom the same thing is crushing the effectiveness of the Post Office. There is no incentive; there is no effort at initiation. There is a crushing down all the way. In my judgment, ‘we are 40 per cent, below par at the top, either with the Deputy Postmasters-General or with the Secretary ; and if there is not efficiency at the top we cannot get efficiency in the grades lower down. We must have material and radical changes in the management of the Post Office, and unless that is done and a board of management appointed, I shall have no word to say of the Government except that, notwithstanding the advice now given, they hesitated to remedy the defects that were pointed out. I deplore the fact that all these years have been wasted. Mr. Anderson tells the Prime Minister and the Government, in effect, that if the recommendations of the Postal Commission had been adopted five years ago, there would have been none of the present trouble.

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister and Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP

– I ask leave to temporarily withdraw this proposal. It will be more convenient if this debate is adjourned to a later period. In the meantime I desire to introduce another message in order that the Senate may have business to deal with.

Mr Watt:

– Is the course suggested by the right honorable gentleman really in order, seeing that the Committee has not risen and that the Speaker has not been summoned to the Chair? I suggest that progress should be reported before any second message is introduced. I think the proceeding is quite irregular.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The course suggested by the Prime Minister may be somewhat out of the ordinary, but it is not out of order. The Committee is still a Committee of Supply, and a second message may be referred to it, the other matter having been temporarily withdrawn.

Mr Watt:

– We have not the authority of the House to deal with a second message.

Mr Fisher:

– Mr. Speaker takes the same view as the Chairman - that the proceeding is quite in order.

Mr Watt:

– It has never been done before.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

page 6120

SUPPLY (WORKS AND BUILDINGS) BILL. (No. 2) 1915-16

Motion (by Mr. Fisher) proposed -

That there be granted to His Majesty to the service of the year 1915-16, for the purposes of additions, new works, buildings, &c., a sum not exceeding £1,419,925.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta

– In agreeing to this proposal I only want to say that to some extent honorable members are the victims of circumstances. I sympathize to the full with the right honorable gentleman’s desire to provide work for the unemployed in another place. I understand there is nothing for them to do to-morrow, and that is why the extraordinary course has been taken of postponing thegeneral financial debate in order to put through these works proposals. In ordinary circumstances, I would have felt myself perfectly justified in debating this schedule, for I come back to the point round which debate has waged for some time past, and that is the extent and character of these public works items. This is a proposal to put through works chargeable to our ordinary revenue to the extent of £1,200,000 more than we actually spent last year. Therefore, I hold that the proposal is a swollen one, and I am afraid that we are voting money in this way which will not be spent during the year. It is the inflation of the estimate that I protest most strongly about. Here is a proposal, for instance, to spend money on public works out of the ordinary revenue to the extent of £3,827,000 for the year, whereas last year we spent only £2,670,000.

Mr Riley:

– Are they new works?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

– Yes; “new works” is the designation.

Mr Webster:

– Out of ordinary revenue?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– A factory will not be started at Canberra ?

Mr FISHER:

– No.

Sir JOHN FORREST:
Swan

– I again state, in regard to these Estimates, that the Treasurer has not shown any justification for increasing the expenditure on works and buildings this year to £3,827,000, the amount spent last year having been only £2,670,000. Such a proposal is, to my mind, evidence that economy is not being practised, and that the Estimates have not received from the Treasurer the critical examination that is expected in these times. I am altogether opposed to the increase of the expenditure on works and buildings this year by £1,157,000. Furthermore, the amount that it is proposed to expend on new works and buildings this year should have been charged, if not all, for the most part, to loan funds. Had that been done, it would have required an expenditure of only £191,000 a year to provide interest and sinking fund at the rate of 5 per cent. I regret, and protest, that this sum of £3,827,000 is to be charged against ordinary revenue this year, instead of against loan funds, and that it should be in excess of the expenditure of last year by £1,157,000.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
Parramatta

– The Treasurer’s reference to the Post Office conduits is unfortunate, because the expenditure on this work is now chargeable to ordinary loans; it is not chargeable against the new works account.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Resolution reported.

Standing Orders suspended, and report adopted.

Resolution of Ways and Means, founded on resolution of Supply, reported and adopted.

Ordered -

That Mr. Fisher and Mr. Hughes do prepare and bring in a Bill to carry out the foregoing resolution.

Bill presented by Mr. Fisher, and passed through all its stages.

page 6122

WHEAT FREIGHTAGE BILL

Mr. SPEAKER reported the receipt of a message from the Governor-General recommending an appropriation of revenue for the purposes of this Bill.

page 6122

ADJOURNMENT

Operations at Gallipoli - National Stocktaking of Food Supplies.

Mr. FISHER (Wide Bay- Prime Minister and Treasurer [11.16]. - In moving

That the House do now adjourn,

I wish to thank the Leader of the Opposition and honorable members generally for permitting one section of Supply to be passed in order to enable another place to deal with. it. I tak© the opportunity to read the following brief extract from a communication received from the CommanderinChief at Gallipoli: -

Extract from despatch from Sir Ian Hamilton on recent fighting at Gallipoli begins: The Australians and New Zealanders cannot be praised too highly.

Their magnificent night march over country, a march so near absolute impracticability that the Turks had evidently not believed such a feat would bc attempted, and their dash and vigour in attack at the end of that march reflect equal credit on their officers and on themselves.

Mr J H CATTS:
Cook

.- As it is proposed by the Government to take away the time remaining for private business, it becomes necessary to take advantage of the motion for the adjournment to refer to certain matters of public importance.

– I had no intention to traverse the previous debate, but a certain promise was made by the Minister of Trade and Customs, who was then in charge of the House, and certain action has since been taken by the Government, to which I desire to refer. I have stated the purpose of the motion. Mr. SPEAKER. - The honorable member is distinctly dealing with a matter that has already been dealt with. Standing order 266 clearly lays it down that -

That stock-taking was to be carried out within seven days. The order was given by the Cabinet on the 17th June, so that these returns are some seven weeks overdue. We have heard nothing of them.

The Minister of Trade and Customs has been asked several times in the House what was the result of thiB reference to the Government and their consideration of it, but we have been met with evasions, and’ not with a reply

It appears that, although ‘the Minister said nothing could be done, the result of Cabinet consideration of my motion was to show that action could be taken, and the Government ordered an inquiry to meet the case.

I should like to know what has been the result of this national stocktaking. The matter is bb urgent now as it was then - in fact, every day increases its urgency since the prices of the necessaries of life are advancing.

On 24th June the Age reported that a detailed investigation in regard to the meat shortage was to be made as the result of this same Cabinet meeting, and in its issue of 30th June it stated that these returns were due. It also published the following comment by the AttorneyGeneral : -

Mr. Hughes states that for the present schedules arc only being sent to the larger firms, but it is the intention eventually to pursue the investigation with respect to both wholesale and retail places. He describes the inquiry as being something in the nature of a national stocktaking. “When we And out what we have,” said Mr. Hughes, “ which we shall do in about a week or ten days’ time, we shall know how far exports may be restricted, how far imports may be encouraged, to what extent the prices charged are justified, to what extent production in certain directions requires encouragement, whether the channels of distribution are clear, and how far ‘ foodstuffs and necessities are being cornered or held up. On this data the Commonwealth and State Governments will be able to take action.”

This matter is now ‘ six or seven weeks overdue, but a sepulchral silence has been maintained in regard to it. We do not know what has been the result of the investigations, nor what the Government propose to do.

I put forward my proposal because I believed that something could be done, and, seeing that the Minister promised in the House that it would be considered by the Government, and the result made known to honorable members, I have exercised patience in waiting for something more than eight weeks for the result of the Cabinet’s consideration.

I have been able to glean it from the public newspapers, although the Minister has not seen fit to make any announcement to the House in reply toquestions addressed to him on the subject.

I wish now to- ask what has been the result of this national stock-taking - what disclosures have been made, and whether the matter will be submitted to the House for the information of. honorable members and the public generally.

Further, I wish to know what action the Government propose to take in regard to the situation disclosed as the result of these inquiries. Apparently there is still no reply.

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister and Treasurer · Wide Bay · ALP

– In reply to the honorable member, I have to state that certain action has been taken, but I am not in possession of the facte. I shall obtain and furnish them to him.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

House adjourned at 11.31 p.m.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 25 August 1915, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1915/19150825_reps_6_78/>.

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House of Representatives25 August 1915

PAPERS

QUESTION

EXPEDITIONARY FORCES

Mr BOYD:HENTY, VICTORIA

Mr FISHER:Prime Minister · WIDE BAY, QUEENSLAND · ALP

Dr MALONEY:MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

Mr KING O’MALLEY:DARWIN, TASMANIA

Mr FISHER:

Mr GREGORY:DAMPIER, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr FISHER:

Mr JOHN THOMSON:COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr JENSEN:Minister for the Navy · BASS, TASMANIA · ALP

Mr SAMPSON:WIMMERA, VICTORIA

Mr JENSEN:

SUGAR PURCHASE BILL

QUESTION

EAU DE COLOGNE

Mr KELLY:WENTWORTH, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr TUDOR:Minister for Trade and Customs · YARRA, VICTORIA · ALP

QUESTION

VICTORIAN MEAT SUPPLY

Mr HAMPSON:BENDIGO, VICTORIA

Mr TUDOR:ALP

Mr Page:

Mr TUDOR:

PERSONAL EXPLANATIONS

Mr MATHEWS:MELBOURNE PORTS, VICTORIA

Mr CARR:MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr CARR:

Mr Hampson:

Mr CARR:

QUESTION

LIVERPOOL CAMP : RE-ENLISTMENTS

Mr ORCHARD:NEPEAN, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr JENSEN:ALP

QUESTION

WHEAT AND WOOL CHARTERS

Mr POYNTON:GREY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr HUGHES:Attorney-General · WEST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr RICHARD FOSTER:WAKEFIELD, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr HUGHES:ALP

QUESTION

HIGH COMMISSIONER

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr FISHER:ALP

QUESTION

COMPANIES ON THE ENEMY LIST

Mr FENTON:MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA

Mr HUGHES:ALP

QUESTION

EXPEDITIONARY FORCES

Mr MASSY-GREENE:RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr JENSEN:ALP

Mr ORCHARD:

Mr JENSEN:

Mr FLEMING:ROBERTSON, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr JENSEN:

Mr SPENCE:Postmaster-General · DARLING, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr JOSEPH COOK:PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr JENSEN:

Dr MALONEY:MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

Mr FISHER:ALP

QUESTION

CENSORSHIP

Mr CARR:

Mr JENSEN:ALP

PAPER

QUESTION

SOUTH AUSTRALIAN INSCRIBED STOCK

Mr McGRATH:BALLAARAT, VICTORIA

Mr FISHER:ALP

Mr WEBSTER:MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr SPENCE:ALP

QUESTION

METAL EXCHANGE

Mr GREGORY:

Mr HUGHES:ALP

QUESTION

House of Representatives
25 August 1915

Mr BOYD:
HENTY, VICTORIA

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister · WIDE BAY, QUEENSLAND · ALP

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
DARWIN, TASMANIA

Mr GREGORY:
DAMPIER, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr JOHN THOMSON:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr JENSEN:
Minister for the Navy · BASS, TASMANIA · ALP

Mr SAMPSON:
WIMMERA, VICTORIA

Mr KELLY:
WENTWORTH, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr TUDOR:
Minister for Trade and Customs · YARRA, VICTORIA · ALP

Mr HAMPSON:
BENDIGO, VICTORIA

Mr TUDOR:
ALP

Mr MATHEWS:
MELBOURNE PORTS, VICTORIA

Mr CARR:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr ORCHARD:
NEPEAN, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr JENSEN:
ALP

Mr POYNTON:
GREY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr HUGHES:
Attorney-General · WEST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr RICHARD FOSTER:
WAKEFIELD, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr HUGHES:
ALP

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr FISHER:
ALP

Mr FENTON:
MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA

Mr HUGHES:
ALP

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr JENSEN:
ALP

Mr FLEMING:
ROBERTSON, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr SPENCE:
Postmaster-General · DARLING, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

Mr FISHER:
ALP

Mr JENSEN:
ALP

Mr McGRATH:
BALLAARAT, VICTORIA

Mr FISHER:
ALP

Mr WEBSTER:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr SPENCE:
ALP

Mr HUGHES:
ALP

Mr HUGHES:
ALP

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

Mr JENSEN:
ALP

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr LIVINGSTON:
BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr SPENCE:
ALP

Mr HUGHES:
ALP

Mr RODGERS:
WANNON, VICTORIA · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr TUDOR:
ALP

Sir JOHN FORREST:
SWAN, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr HUGHES:
ALP

Mr HUGHES:
ALP

Mr PIGOTT:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr SPENCE:
ALP

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP

Mr JENSEN:
ALP

Mr WEST:
EAST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr HIGGS:
CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND

Mr JENSEN:
ALP

Mr MATHEWS:
for Mr. Bamford

Mr JENSEN:
ALP

Mr JENSEN:
ALP

Mr SPENCE:
ALP

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr SPENCE:
ALP