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House of Representatives
30 August 1912

4^th Parliament · 3^rd Session

ELECTORAL DIVISIONS: NEW SOUTH WALES
QUESTION
- PRICE OF BUTTER
QUESTION
- NEW COMMONWEALTH OFFICES
QUESTION
- KALGOORLIE TO PORT AUGUSTA RAILWAY
QUESTION
- DEFENCE
QUESTION
- SUGAR EXCISE AND BOUNTY
QUESTION
- TARIFF REVISION
QUESTION
- INCOME AND PROBATE TAXATION
QUESTION
- POST AND TELEGRAPH DEPARTMENT
QUESTION
- FEDERAL TERRITORY
QUESTION
- ELECTORAL ACT
QUESTION
- TICK REGULATIONS
PINE CREEK TO KATHERINE RIVER RAILWAY SURVEY BILL
- Second Reading
ADJOURNMENT
- Order of Business

Mr. Speaker took the chair at 10.30 i.m., and read prayers.

page 2794

ELECTORAL DIVISIONS: NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Can the Minister of Home Affairs give us any information about the proposed new boun-

page 2794

QUESTION

PRICE OF BUTTER

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

– I claim the courtesy of a reply to a question, without notice, from the Minister of Trade and Customs. Has any reduction in the price of butter or other produce come- to his knowledge during the last few days?

Mr TUDOR:
Minister for Trade and Customs · YARRA, VICTORIA · ALP

– I see from the newspapers that the statement of prices read in. this chamber the other day created consternation in’ the butter, industry, and that those connected with it desire to prove that the prices are not those that were- then given. I have been informed’ that butter has dropped about 2d. per lb. since then.

Mr GORDON:
BOOTHBY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– I ask the Minister if he thinks that the publication of the prices of butter .and meat had immediately the very beneficial effect of reducing the cost of living in Australia, whether he will consider the advisableness of extending such publication in the interests of consumers?

Mr TUDOR:

– I do not think, that the publication of prices referred to was theimmediate cause of - a reduction in the cost of living, but it probably had some- effect in that direction.

page 2794

QUESTION

NEW COMMONWEALTH OFFICES

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Can the Minister of Home Affairs say when- the papers relating to the new Commonwealth, offices will be laid- on the table of the Library,, in accordance- with the- promise which he. has made? Has he seen the statement in this morning’s Argus that a contractor has offered to give £joo to the hospitals if a comparison will not show that the new Commonwealth. Treasury will’ cost 50 per cent, more than the State building alongside it ? ls .the Minister prepared to make an opportunity for the hospitals to get that .money ?

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
Minister for Home Affairs · DARWIN, TASMANIA · ALP

– I understand that such a paragraph has appeared, but, for my peace of mind, I read only the Age. I shall look into the matter.

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– But what about the laying of the papers on the table? When will the honorable gentleman make .available to members all the papers relating to the proposed building, including the offer of the Victorian Public Works Department ?

Mr KING O’MALLEY:

– I have given instructions to have the papers supplied, and shall look into the matter again. No doubt they will be sent back to the Library to-day.

I Mr. W. ELLIOT JOHNSON.- I inquired this morning, and found that they are not there .now.

Later -

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
ALP

– I should like to inform the honorable member for Lang that I have made an inquiry in respect of the papers he has referred to, and I ‘find that they were left at the Library at 2.30 p.m. yesterday.

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I inquired this morning as to whether they had been returned, and was told they had not.

Later -

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I ask the Minister of -Home Affairs if he will make further inquiries in reference to the papers. I have just been into the Library, and have discovered that they have not yet arrived there. The honorable gentleman might inquire why they have not been sent, and when they will be sent to the Library.

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
ALP

– We shall have a search made.

page 2795

QUESTION

KALGOORLIE TO PORT AUGUSTA RAILWAY

Motor Car Tires

Mr FENTON:
MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA

– With reference to the two motor cars which are to be acquired for use in connexion with the construction of the railway from; Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta, will the Minister of Home Affairs give an opportunity to Australian and other tire makers to tender for the supply of tires?

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
ALP

– I have been looking into the matter, and think that there will be no difficulty about that. The officers making the recommendations have .been using foreign material for so long that I suppose they are unconsciously biased, but as it is the policy of the Fisher Ministry to give preference to Australia, we shall do it in this instance.

page 2795

QUESTION

DEFENCE

Cadet Exemptions - Australian

Garrison Artillery

Mr HIGGS:
CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND

– Will the Prime Minister invite the Minister of Defence to consider, with a view to granting an exemption from compulsory training, special cases like that of Albert Charles Osborne, of Chatswood, New South Wales, an orphan left with the care, according to his statement, of eight younger brothers and sisters, all under sixteen years of age? He declares that he will not undergo the training, and says -

I have a good character from my employer. I do my work faithfully, and I have long hours. My father is dead. My mother died only four, months ago. I and my brother are the sole support of the family. I am tired out when I get home, and it is as much as I can do to look after the house, which is not our own yet, and which I have to keep touching up. I have eight brothers and sisters, all under sixteen, to look after.

I ask the Prime Minister whether he is not of the opinion that Parliament would support the Minister of Defence in granting special -exemptions in cases of that kind ?

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister · WIDE BAY, QUEENSLAND · ALP

– Every member must be in sympathy with the honorable member’s request, and, so far as the law permits, I think the matter can be easily dealt with. I shall bring the matter before the Minister of Defence.

Mr RYRIE:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

– As Chatswood is in the division of North Sydney, I ask the right honorable gentleman to make sure that the published statements are correct before taking action. The honorable member for Capricornia might have communicated with me on the subject before interfering.

Mr FISHER:

– Accepting the facts, the case is a very hard one, and there is warrant and precedent for an exemption. In countries where there is conscription, any person having a family to support is not compelled to serve.

Mr HIGGS:

– I wish to make a personal explanation. When I saw the paragraph in the newspaper this morning? I ascertained the division in which Chatswood is situated, and, finding that it is not represented by a member of our party, I thought that, as the line of demarcation between ourselves and honorable members opposite is so clear, I was entitled to ask the question. If the honorable member for North Sydney will assure me that he is in sympathy with the object of questions asked on a previous occasion-

Mr SPEAKER:

– The honorable member is going beyond a personal explanation.

Mr HIGGS:

– I wish only to add that I shall be happy to consult him about questions of a similar character which may arise in connexion with his electorate.

Mr RYRIE:

– When I asked a question of the Prime Minister, following upon the question of the honorable member for Capricornia, I had not seen the newspaper account of the pathetic situation of the cadet referred to. Having now read the report, I say at once that I am quite in sympathy with the question asked by the honorable member, and I hope that some action will be taken. The case is certainly a most pathetic one. Has the attention of the Prime Minister been called to the following paragraph -

The whole of No. 4 Company of the A.G.A., stationed at Wollongong, resigned to-day -

Mr Finlayson:

– Is Wollongong in the honorable member’s electorate?

Mr RYRIE:

– No; but this is a public matter, and I am asking the question in the absence of the honorable member for Illawarra, who represents Wollongong. The resignations are stated to be - owing to the regimental staff being abolished, and no provision being made for their upkeep. The loss to the Commonwealth of the local A.G.A. is a serious one, as they were recognised rs absolutely the best big-gun shots in Australia. To-night the head-quarters company in Sydney, which should muster 121 strong, ha’d dwindled down to 25, including 5 officers going out tomorrow.

Does not the Prime Minister think that that indicates a serious state of affairs ?

Mr FISHER:

– These are times when all kinds of people go on strike to assert their rights. I have no very great apprehensions .concerning the movement referred to, although I greatly regret it. I saw the paragraph to which the honorable member has referred, the particulars of which, I think, are stated somewhat differently in the two morning papers of Melbourne. I shall bring the matter before the Minister of Defence. If there is any real grievance discovered, it ought to be removed.

page 2796

QUESTION

SUGAR EXCISE AND BOUNTY

Mr HIGGS:

– I wish to ask the Prime Minister a somewhat important question concerning Queensland. What is the true position of affairs, in view of the suggestion made by him, as to the abolition of the sugar Excise and Bounty?

Mr FISHER:
ALP

– The question asked by the honorable member is very concise. What the true position is I do not know myself. All I can say in reply to the question is that the sugar Excise and Bounty represent superstructures on our protective policy, intended to insure the development of the sugar industry by white labour. If any legislation can be devised to serve the same purpose, the superstructures referred to should, no doubt, be removed as early as possible.

page 2796

QUESTION

TARIFF REVISION

Mr HIGGS:

asked the Minister of Trade and Customs, upon notice -

What has been the increase in imports of both classes of confectionery (n.e.i. and ornamental) during each of the five years ending 1911 and the total said imports during ion? What have been the increases in local production?
1. Is the Minister aware that the confectioners of Rockhampton, Central Queensland, are complaining of the increase of imports of confectionery, and desire further protection?
What ate the names of those industries in which, during the last twelve months, manufacturers have asked for an increase of import duties ?
Does the Minister propose, at any time during the present session, to give increased protection to any Australian, industry?
Will the Minister introduce a Bill next year having for its object the amendment of the Customs Tariff Act, so that the said Tariff will, when amended, be of the nature of a scientific Protectionist Tariff, i.e., a Tariff under which commodities that can be produced in Australia shall have adequate protection, and those commodities which cannot be produced in Australia shall have little or no import duty placed on them ?

Mr TUDOR:
ALP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are -

The imports of confectionery for each of the years 1907-1 1 were as under: -

Includes cocoa and chocolate (not in powdered form), prepared for edible or potable use (approximate value, ^63,000), included in other years with cocoa and chocolate.

Value of output of confectionery works throughout the Commonwealth, 1908-11 -

No.
During the past twelve months126applications have been received for Tariff revision. Of these sixty-eight were accompanied by schedules filled with the information required by the Department. Twenty-six of these latter applications were dealt with during the revision of the Tariff last year.

The following are the names of those industries in which manufacturers asked for an increase in import duties : -

Division 1. Spirits, &c. -

Ether (sulphuric)+.
1. Naphtha wood*.

Division 2. Tobacco, &c. -

Tobacco, cigars, and cigarettes+.

Division 3. Sugar -

Sugar.

Division 4. Agricultural Products and Groceries -

Arrowroot.
Bananas. *(c) Confectionery.
Desiccated cocoanut+.
Linseed (for crushing).
Maize (Java).
Matches+.
Metal polish+.
Salt+.
1. Sheep.

Division 5. Textiles, Felts, and Furs, and manufactures thereof, and Attire -

Apparel (ladies)+.
Artificial flowers.
Bags and sacks+.
Boot loops and labels*.
Corsets+.
Costumes and mantles.
Gloves.
Handkerchiefs*.
Hats and caps+.
Hosiery+.
Roofing felt and damp course+*.
Stockinette+.
Upholsterers webs.

Division 6. Metals and Machinery -

Brasswork (chandeliers and gasoliers)*.
Combs and cutters (sheep-shearing machines)+.
Drop forgings+.
Dry cells.
Engines and boilers (marine)+.
Engines (petrol).
Engines (high speed).
Engines (oil and gas)+.
Electrotypes and stereotypes+.
Fences (woven wire)+.
Gas mantles (incandescent)+.
Gas meters+*
Galvanized steel sheets.
Laundry machinery.
Lamps (motor car)+.
Metal bedsteads+.
Oxidised copper works+.
Pipes (cast iron).
Plough shares.
Rifle sights*
Steel wheels.
Stoves+*.
Subservice packers+.
Tanks.
Tin plating+.
1. Tools made from bar steel and iron+. (aa) Type (printers’)+. (bb) Vyces+.
2. Wire (barb)+. (dd) Wire (gold, sheet, and platinum)+. (ee) Wire (cable). (ff) Wire netting machines and parts+.

Division 7. Oils, Paints, and Varnishes -

Axle grease and lubricants+.
Oil (boiled, linseed)+.
Oil (cocoanut and palm).
Oil (kerosene)+.
Oil (tar)+. (f) Oil (olive)*.
Paints+.
Plumbago+.
Turpentine substitutes+.

Division 8. Earthenware, Cement, &c. -

Asphalt, mastic and bitumen+.
Corks and stoppers.
Flint, glassware and bottles+.
Flint pebbles+.
Firebricks*.
Grindstones*.
Mica+.
Plate glass.
Printers’ roller composition+.
Slates and flagstones.
Tiles.
Wrought granite*.

Division 9. Drugs and Chemicals -

Carbon bisulphide+.
Disinfectant, sheep dip, &c.+
Hydrogen peroxide.

Division 10. Wood, Wicker, and Cane -

Boxes cut to size*.
Chairs (wooden and cane seated)+.
Coachbuilders’ woodware*.
Handles of wood.
Timber, Baltic, dressed+.

DivisionII. Jewellery -

Jewellery.
Precious stones.
Watches and imitation jewellery.

Division 12. Leather and Rubber -

Boots and shoes+.
Glace kid+.
Hogskins.
Rubber air goods.
Rubber, reclaimed+*.
Saddles (buggy and harness)*.
Tyres (motor car and cycle)+*.

Division 13. Paper and Stationery -

Catalogues, illustrated and trade.
Inks, printing and news+.
Inks, writing and ink powders+.
Magazines.
Paper, bags+*.
Paper, blotting and cartridge+.
Paper, board lining+.
Paper, carpet felt+*.
Paper, wax+.
Paper, wrapping and bag+.
Stationery, manufactured+.
Stationery, transfers+.

Division 14. Vehicles -

Cycle and motor fittings, plated+.
Motor bodies*.
Motor chassis.
Motor cycles.
Springs+*.

Division 15. Musical Instruments -

Pianos and pianolas*.

Division 16. Miscellaneous -

Bark,wattle.
Brushmakers’ bristles and woodware+.
Coke.
Corks+*.
Horsehair.
Manures.
Welding compounds*.
Umbrella handiest.
Vessels and dredges*.
Yarn (cotton and woollen).

Those marked thus * are those dealt with in

Tariff Revision last year, while in connexion with those marked+ schedules have been received.

It should be mentioned that in some cases the applicants who sent in schedules represented only a small proportion of manufacturers.

No.
I trust that the Referendum, which will be put before the people next year, will be carried and will enable a complete amendment of the Tariff to be proposed during the next Parliament. Meanwhile the Department is collecting most valuable information, and will be in a better position than ever before to deal with each industry on its merits.

page 2798

QUESTION

INCOME AND PROBATE TAXATION

Mr ARCHIBALD:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

asked the Minister of Home Affairs, upon notice -

Whether it is the intention of the Government to instruct the Commonwealth Statistican to compile the following tables for the next YearBook: - The number of income taxpayers in Australia ; the number of non-income taxpayers ; the taxpayers up to £200, from £200 up to £300, from £300 to £500, from £500 to £1,000, from £1,000 to £5,000, from , £5,000 upwards; separate tables for property and personal exertion; the value of estates of deceased persons under £500, from £500 to £1,000, from £1,000 to £5,000,from£5,000to£10,000, from £10,000 to £50,000, from £50,000 and upwards; a table worked out upon the probate tax; the number of persons who leave at death no property subject to review?

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
ALP

– Steps have already been taken to obtain the information desired, and it will be published, provided the State Departments concerned are able to furnish the necessary data. Attempts by this Government to get the desired information have not, so far, met with success.

page 2798

QUESTION

POST AND TELEGRAPH DEPARTMENT

Leave of Semi-Official Employes

Mr JOHN THOMSON:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES

asked the Postmaster-General, upon notice -

Are semi-official employes of the Postal Department compelled to work on public holidays; if so, are they allowed extra payment or time off in lieu?
What annual recreation leave is granted to such officers?
If incapacitated through illness, what provision is made for their relief, and is the cost borne by the officer?

Mr THOMAS:
Minister for External Affairs · for Mr. Frazer · ALP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are -

The agreement entered into by semi-official postmasters provides for the observance of the Departmental regulations, and these set out the’ hours to be observed on holidays. The rate of” pay provided in the agreement covers such service.
None.
In terms of the agreement referred to in. answer No. 1, semi-official postmasters must provide their own relief.

page 2798

QUESTION

FEDERAL TERRITORY

Land Resumption

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:

asked the Minister of Home Affairs, upon notice -

In view of the feeling which prevails amongst land-holders within the Federal Territory with regard to the delay which is taking place in the resumption of their land, and the absence of any definite pronouncement with reference to the conditions of tenure to be adopted after resumption -

Will the Government make arrangementsfor the immediate taking over of the holdings of those land-holders who may from time to time desire to dispose of their properties?

Have the Government given consideration-. to the matter of advancing loans, through the Commonwealth Savings Bank, to owners of freehold land within the Federal Territory, in order to enable them to pay off existing mortgages and still furtherimprove their holdings?

In view of the rabbit-infested state of a large number of the holdings within the Federal area, will the Government at once make arrangements for supplying wire-netting (on lines similar to those of the State Government) to those land-holders who may desire to net their holdings in?

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
ALP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are - 1 to 3. I will request Colonel Miller, Administrator of the Territory, on his return from. Western Australia, to go into the whole of these matters, which have already received some consideration from the Department.

page 2799

QUESTION

ELECTORAL ACT

Divisional and Subdivisional Returning Officers

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES

asked the Minister of Home Affairs, upon notice -

Can he furnish a list of persons not connected with the Public Service holding appointments as Divisional or Subdivisional Returning Officers to the Commonwealth, together with the names of their Divisions and Subdivisions?
Is it still the policy of the Electoral Office to have these appointments made from the Public Service ; and, if so, what are the reasons more general effect is not given to this policy?

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
ALP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are -

A list will be prepared and laid upon the table of the House.
When filling a vacancy in the position of Divisional Returning Officer, it is the practice to select the postmaster at the chief polling place in the Division.

When filling vacancies in the ranks of Assistant Returning Officers, it is the policy to secure the services of public officials. In some cases, however, the services of public officials are not available, and in other cases their services can- not be made available without serious embarrassment to the Departments in which they are employed.

page 2799

QUESTION

TICK REGULATIONS

Mr JOHN THOMSON:
for Mr. Sin clair

asked the Minister of Trade and Customs, upon notice -

Whether he has been approached by the local or other authorities of Queensland or New South Wales with a view to having cattle-tick regulations brought under Federal control?
Have any suggestions been made to declare buffer areas, and what is the location of same ?
If representation has been made, what action does he propose to take in the matter?

Mr TUDOR:
ALP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are -

Neither the State Government nor local Government authorities have approached this Government on the subject, but communications were received in 1910 from local progress and dairy associations in the north of New South Wales asking that the Federal Government should step in to protect their districts.
A suggestion was made by one association that a buffer zone, extending 25 miles north from the southern Queensland boundary, should be declared.
Representations were at once made to the

State Governments of New South Wales and Queensland, and the Commonwealth was informed that the two Governments were in conference on the subject as to the measures in operation and as to what course of action would afford reasonable protection to New South Wales, and those associations from whom communications had been received by the Commonwealth were informed accordingly. It is understood that the matter is still engaging the attention of the State Departments, and no further communication has been received from the district associations.

If it is found necessary to put the special provisions of the Quarantine Act into operation for the protection of clean States, or any clean part of a State, from tick infection in any other State, this will be done after full investigation of all the circumstances.

page 2799

PINE CREEK TO KATHERINE RIVER RAILWAY SURVEY BILL

Second Reading

Mr. THOMAS (Barrier- Minister of

External Affairs) [10.51]. - I move -

That this Bill be now read a second time.

– It is in a magazine I have here.

Mr THOMAS:

– I mentioned the matter when in Darwin, and it is possible that the statement I then made may have been sent Home by the press. But I do not remember sending to the High Commissioner any statement concerning this matter. Whatever may be the report furnished by this Committee, we claim that it is a matter of urgency that this line in the north should be proceeded with. In order that the Territory may be properly developed, it is, of course, necessary that we should find markets for the settlers, and that we should give them better facilities than they possess at present for dealing with their cattle and produce. One of the proposals in connexion with the development of the Territory is that freezing works should be erected there. Whilst I was in the Territory, a deputation interviewed me on the subject. I informed the deputation that the Government were prepared to erect freezing works, but that we should require, first of all, to receive from the Administrator a very definite statement as to where they should be erected. I said that, until we received from him a very definite report as to the most suitable locality in which to erect them, we could not go on with the work, but that, upon the receipt of such a report, we should be prepared immediately to erect freezing works. I have received recently from the Administrator a rather interesting report, which the House perhaps may be pleased to hear. It is as follows -

In reply I have to inform you that this question - the question of the freezing works - has been discussed with several of the larger pastoral ists in the Territory. Suggestions were made for the erection of works in the following localities : -

Macarthur River.

Victoria River.

Katherine River.

Darwin.

The following conclusions were arrived at : -

Locality (1) (Macarthur). - There would be at present insufficient stock likely to come forward to warrant erection of works here.

Locality (2) (Victoria). - The route to any suitable site for works is too rough to land stock fit for freezing, and it would be difficult to arrange for shipping facilities until a great deal of survey work, &c, has been carried out, both of that river and the neighbouring country.

Locality (3) (Katherine). - It was generally agreed that fat stock could be landed in freezing condition there, both from the west and from the east of the overland telegraph line. If works were established there, however, it would be absolutely necessary to have additional cold storage at Darwin. It would be impossible to rail frozen meat from Katherine to Darwin to suit shipping requirements, and to have supplementary cold storage works at the port would obviously add very seriously to the working expenses.

Locality (4) (Darwin). - Reviewing the whole question, it would appear wisest to erect the works at Darwin, but it will be impossible to convey stock to Darwin in f reezing condition, at all events in sufficient numbers, until the railway to the Katherine is completed. I have already given the question of a suitable site some consideration, but shall write you again in regard to this. I think there will be no difficulty in finding Crown land suitable for this.

I have intimated to all pastoral ists concerned, however, through the Progress Association here, that, before 1 recommend the expenditure of public money upon such works, I must receive written guarantees that stock-owners will support them by supplying a fair number of cattle every season. Inquiries are now being made from stock-owners generally. Without such a guarantee the stock-owners of the Victoria River district would discontinue to patronize our works in the event of the Western Australian Government, or any private firm, erecting freezing works at Wyndham, because they consider the route to Wyndham much better than that to the Katherine. As the Victoria River would constitute the main source of our supplies for a number of years, this would mean the closing of the works, to the detriment of the other stockowners, or their carrying on at a huge loss to the State. Of course, I do not wish to hamper trade, but it is undesirable that the Territory should develop a new industry and some one else reap the benefit, to its own financial detriment. My intention is to have such a guarantee that, if any one chose todivert his stock, the forfeiture of so much (say 2s. 6d.) per head, would permit us to keep the works going for the smaller supplier. I have explained the position fully to the stock-owners I have met ; they agree to its reasonableness ; and I have every hope that, ere very long, I may be able to forward to you the necessary guarantee. I estimate we should not commence the establishment of freezing works unless we can get a guarantee of 10,000 per annum as a minimum supply. This number is a mere bagatelle in a country with 500,000 cattle and no local demand for beef.

In addition to the necessity for such a minimum for the upkeep and running of the freezing works, it is necessary in order to insure shipping facilities ata satisfactory rate.

In conclusion, I am certain that we cannot, with profit to the stock-owner, establish works until the railway to the Katherine is completed, or nearly so, for, on the route between Katherine and Pine Creek, all stock would rapidly lose condition, and so be landed as “ stores,” not as “ freezers.”

There is no doubt the establishment of freezing works at Darwin would be of immense value to the Territory. The value of cattle would nearly double, the railways would pay, and settlement would be encouraged.

The freezing works proper would probably not. be kept going more than six months in the year, but the addition of canning and manure plants which are to-day necessary adjuncts, would enable the engineer and the best of the staff to be kept busy for the greater part of the year. In addition, the works could be the source of a general electric supply for the town of Darwin, at a small additional expense, for electricity is a necessity in any up-to-date freezing works.

My rough estimate of the cost is about £80,000, and, were it decided to go on rapidly with the railway extension to Katherine, every endeavour should be made to have it reach a point 10 miles from Katherine by the end of next year. If this were possible, and the stockowners come into line, the freezing works should be ready by then, and operations could commence.

The Administrator has received from London the following cablegram from Mr.. Townshend, manager of the Victoria Downs property -

Bovril Australian Estates, with extension railway to Katherine, subject reasonable charges for treatment, guarantee supply at least 5,000 head cattle annually meat works, Darwin, disease drought excluded.

Concerning that cablegram from London the Administrator has telegraphed the following message -

When definitely decided re railway and freezing works, propose preparing an agreement for general manager’s signature. Have received no guarantee from smaller holders, but this is the most important, and will warrant establishment of. works.

It will be seen from what I have read that it will be a good thing to have a railway from Pine Creek to the Katherine River if, as the outcome of it, among other things, we could have freezing works at Darwin.

Mr Deakin:

– It seems to pass through very poor country when it has such a bad effect on the stock.

Mr THOMAS:

– Yes. The country between the terminal points is not, in my opinion - and I think that the honorable member for North Sydney rather agrees with me - too good. But the line has to go by that route in order to get to the good land. It is admitted that there is good land on the other side of the Katherine River. They can bring the cattle to the other side of that river, but travelling over the intervening 56 miles they say would be bad for them. The land along the route is, apparently, not good. I am glad to say that the mining reports which we have received from time to time are satisfactory. There is no doubt that there is a good mineral belt in the district, and that it would be touched by the proposed railway. We recognise that the development of the Territory would be helped very considerably by the establishment of a mining field. If we could have some good mines opened there they would have a wonderful effect in that direction. I have already referred to the legal and moral obligations that we have in connexion with the carrying out of the railway from the north to the south. Besides, we have to pay and we are now paying about £80,000 a year interest on the railway from Port Augusta to Oodnadatta, so that we have to take that into consideration as well as our legal and moral obligations. I hope that honorable members, will see their way clear, I trust unanimously, to support this proposal for the survey of a railway, and will not demand any immediate linking of the north and the south. I think that we are justified in asking even the representatives of South Australia not to be too impatient, in view of the fact that we have taken over all the monetary considerations in connexion with this matter. Of course, if the railway from Port Augusta to Oodnadatta had remained with South Australia, and its Government had to meet a loss of £80,000 a year, there might be a small justification for persons in that State being a little impatient if we did not go from the north to the south at once. But seeing that the Federal Government has taken over that liability, from the stand-point of South Australia there ought not to be, I think, any impatience shown After a survey has been made, and a construction proposal has been submitted to, and authorized by Parliament, it will take some considerable time to build the railway. In the interval, the Committee of which I have spoken will be doing their work and reporting. They will have the assistance of the survey parties in order to survey any lines which they may deem necessary, and by the time the railway is built to the Katherine River we shall know more definitely what it may be necessary to do in the future. Whatever Government may be in office then will be in a far better position than we are in now to put before the House a definite railway scheme. Seeing that at present there are only about 1,000 white persons in this great Territory, which for over forty years has been administered by South Australia, we think it is not unreasonable that we’ should not plunge too heavily at once. We feel that a proposal which practically means a direct expenditure of £500,000 will be a fair and legitimate instalment 10 go on with. I therefore ask the House to pass the Bill.

Mr GROOM:
Darling Downs

– I can see no reason to urge against the proposal itself, but it is to be regretted that the Minister could not have seen his way much earlier to take definite action to have constituted a Committee such as he has suggested. In 1910 the Commonwealth resolved to take over the Northern Territory, so that for nearly two years this matter has been under the control of the present Administration. I am glad to say that the Minister will receive support from this side of the House for the appointment of the Committee to which he has referred. As a matter of fact, in 1910 such a Committee as he has suggested to-day, was outlined from this side, and the honorable member for Parramatta almost suggested in detail the personnel of the Committee which was to be appointed. It is a pity that the Minister did not take action earlier, because it would appear from a report in the Empire Magazine, of the 5th June, 191 2, that the Department itself had in contemplation the proposal which the Minister made here to-day. The report reads -

Reuter’s Agency is informed that, according to information which has reached the High Commissioner in London, the Commonwealth Government has decided upon an important step with regard to the development of the tropical regions of Australia. The Minister of External Affairs, whose Department controls the Northern Territory, has decided to appoint a committee to visit the territory and advise the Government as to the best measures to be taken for railway development.

In this connexion it is interesting to note that by the agreement under which the Commonwealth took over the Northern Territory from South Australia, the Federal Government is bound to connect the far north and south of that State by means of a railway nearly a thousand miles in length, from Pine Creek in the extreme north of the Northern Territory to Oodnadatta, the present terminus of the line running north from Adelaide.

The above-named committee will consist of a railway engineer, a civil engineer, and a third expert, thoroughly conversant with the general conditions of the Northern Territory. This committee is to report on the railway lines necessary, with special reference to development from the north ; to indicate the general direction and nature of the lines required; and to give an approximate estimate of cost. While bearing in mind the legal obligation of- the Commonwealth with regard to the Pine Creek-Oodnadatta line, the committee will have to take into consideration existing and projected lines in Queensland and Western Australia, and will make recommendations as to the junctions, navigable rivers, and other kindred matters connected with the development of the Territory.

Mr POYNTON:

– That is what I understood from the honorable gentleman’s statement to be the Government policy. If I misunderstood him I am not the only one who did so. Everything the honorable gentleman said led to the impression that his policy was one of construction from north to south. Although I have no knowledge of railway construction I would undertake to construct the through line south to north at one-third less, mile for mile, than it would cost to construct the same line from north to south. It should be remembered that in constructing the line from south to north we should be passing immediately through country with climatic conditions as good as those of Victoria, and only gradually approaching the tropical portions of the country. The development of the central portion would materially assist in the development of the tropical portion. If the proposition were submitted to any railway contractor or engineer in the world I have no doubt he would say, “ If it is your intention to construct the through line you should commence the construction from the south, because all necessary -material and all stock and everything necessary for the settlement and development of the country must come from the south.” It is absurd to suggest that all material should be carried round the coast, a journey almost as long as from here to London, that men should be taken round in the same way and dumped down in the malarial and tropical portions of the Territory. If the line is to be constructed from north to south we shall have to transport over the same roundabout route all that will be required to stock and develop the country. It was because of the adoption of that course in the development of the Northern Territory that South Australia failed. She tried to develop it from Port Darwin. Had South Australia pushed through, as was originally intended, with the line from Oodnadatta, I venture to say that thousands of people and millions of stock would be found in the Territory to-day. She failed in her effort to develop the Territory by attempting to do so from Port Darwin, and the Commonwealth Government will certainly fail if they adopt the same course.

Mr. GORDON (Boothby) L”-57]– I desire, at the outset, to give the Minister of External Affairs and the Government my assurance that I shall do my utmost to consider all proposals they bring down from an Australian point of view. If there is one subject which, more than another, honorable members should approach with broad minds, and a certain exercise of imagination, it is the development of the central and tropical portions of Australia. This question is not one which concerns South Australia, or any other particular State. Whatever success the present, or any future, Government of the Commonwealth may have in the settlement of the Northern Territory will be for the benefit of the Commonwealth as a whole, and not of any one State. We should all be actuated by the one desire to see the Territory populated, and one industry after another established there to increase its wealth and advance its prosperity for the benefit of the Commonwealth as a whole. I approach this question with somewhat mixed feelings. Last night, thinking over the matter, I drew up an amendment which I intended to submit to alter the instructions to the Committee for this survey with the object of having a start made with the survey from Oodnadatta to the Macdonnell Ranges. I was courteously informed, officially, that my amendment could not be submitted as it was not entirely in order. I did not propose to submit it with any view of embarrassing the Minister of External Affairs, or delaying necessary works, but with a desire to emphasize the policy which I believe to be the more correct one for the development of central Australia, and the Northern Territory from the south to the north, which has just been so forcibly and eloquently advocated by the honorable member for Grey. We have already a railway connexion stretching right from Brisbane round the eastern and southern coast of Australia to Oodnadatta. We have to remember that we shall have workmen- and engineers engaged on the construction of the railway from Port Augusta to Kalgoorlie. We have already had a declaration of policy from this Government that they are committed to a uniform gauge as far as Commonwealth railways are concerned of 4 ft. in. Now is the time to carry out that policy by continuing the railway from some point on the Port Augusta to Kalgoorlie railway on the 4-ft. 8j-in. gauge right through the centre of the continent, with the purpose of inducing settlement gradually to creep from the temperate zone into the semi-tropical and tropical. Going back some years> we find that South Australia attempted the development of this great stretch of country. The great mistake which the State made was in establishing the two ends of the railway, one at Oodnadatta and one at Pine Creek. Those two railways stop, from the railway point of view, practically nowhere. Oodnadatta is an unsatisfactory terminus ; Pine Creek is a most unsatisfactory one. Something must be done. Whether the policy be to build from the north to the south or from the south to the north, the termini of the railways at present are of no advantage to the pastoralists or to the mining industry. If the Government is desirous of opening up from the north, then the Minister is perfectly right in asking this House to agree to carry the railway somewhere beyond the point at which it now stops. The Minister told us that he proposes to have an alternate survey for a railway on the 3-ft. 6-in. and on the 4-ft. 8 1/2-in. gauge. I contend that having determined that the railways of the Commonwealth should be on one gauge, now is the time to make a start in the direction of uniformity ; and the line from Port Darwin to Pine Creek should be altered to the 4-ft. i-n. gauge in order that the railway from Pine Creek to the Katherine may be constructed on the same gauge. It will never do to continue on the 3-ft. 6-in. gauge from Pine Creek to the Katherine. My concern would not be greater if South Australia were losing this £80,000 a year on the Oodnadatta line- As it is at present, the Commonwealth is losing that sum, and in addition to that we are losing a large amount of money because of the small population in the Territory and the backward condition of the country. Now is the time for this Government to come forward with a bolder policy’ than is contained in this Bill, a policy which will make for the complete survey of the transcontinental route through the heart of the continent, in order that that railway may be begun and completed with the smallest possible delay. On the basis of the time that this survey is to take, six months for sixty miles, it will occupy nine years to complete the survey between Oodnadatta and Pine Creek ! There is already in existence something more complete than a flying survey for several hundreds of miles north of Oodnadatta, and there is nothing to prevent the Government this session bringing down a Bill asking this House to agree to the continuation of that railway from Oodnadatta to the Macdonnell Ranges.

Mr W J JOHNSON:
ROBERTSON, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– Only extravagant expenditure; that is all.

Mr GORDON:

– Where care is exercised there can be no extravagance in the building of railways in any part of Australia. If this continent is to be developed, if we are to take advantage of the great natural resources of the country, we must build railways, we must make roads, and we must give the industrial army that goes forth to develop inland Australia every possible means of communication. The same argument, the same assertions of extravagance, were made when it was proposed to throw transcontinental railways across the United States and through Canada. Instead of one railway there are now several, and they have been more instrumental than anything else in developing the country. From the point of view of industrial development, from the point of view of defence, we shall never be in a safe position as a people until we have trunk lines running east and west and north and south. I hope that the Government will see their way clear, before this session closes, not only to carry out this survey, but to come to some determination on their own responsibility to link up the two ends of the present disconnected north to south line. We have no necessity to wait for three Commissioners to examine the country, and to report, so far .as Oodnadatta and the Macdonnell Ranges are concerned. All the necessary information is already available. The country is well known.

There are no engineering difficulties. A survey has already Deen completed. It isquite within the power of the Government to bring down another Bill, whilst thissurvey is being effected, to continue the railway from .Oodnadatta to at least the Macdonnell Ranges. On economical grounds that will be a far safer and sounder policy than endeavouring to build a railway southwards from the north. In, Committee I propose to take a test division, if it be permissible to do so, in this direction. I do not object to die proposed survey being made. I do not object to the railway being continued from Pine Creek, because the railway at present existing is perfectly -useless. But I do contend, that, simultaneously’ with this survey, or with the construction of the railway from Pine Creek to the Katherine, there should be some definite and determined forward movement in the direction of carrying the railway into Central Australia as the only possible means of developing what is, after all, the best pastoral country in the Northern Territory.

Mr Finlayson:

– Would not that be reckless expenditure ?

Mr GORDON:

– It would not be reckless expenditure. It would be a commonsense policy, because it is to Central Australia that you have to go to find the best sheep country. It is in Central Australia, that you find the best pastoral country. It was from that part of the Northern Territory that, only a year ago, cattle weretrucked 700 miles to Adelaide, and another 500 miles to Melbourne; arid they topped the cattle markets of this city against the best cattle that Victoria could produce.. This shows that it is extremely good pastoral country. I hope that this Government and the party in power will not be satisfied with their present policy of developing the Territory ; that they will not be satisfied to close the session by merely asking this House for authority to carry out a trumpery survey for 60 miles; but that they will come down with a bolder proposal and ask us to agree to the building of a railway extending at least to the Macdonnell Ranges.

Mr. FRANK FOSTER (New England> [12.10] - 1 regret the brevity of the remarks made by the Minister in introducing this Bill, for I have been waiting - and waiting in vain, it would seem: - to hear from the Government something like a comprehensive policy for the development of the Territory. South

– The pastoralists say that they cannot travel stock along the route of the line without sacrificing their condition.

Ma FRANK FOSTER.- The honorable member forgets that the line will traverse sixty miles of country. If stock are driven from sweet country to sour country they will inevitably fall away in condition.

Mr Sampson:

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
Calare

– I desire to give expression to some of the opinions I hold with respect to the work which . we are called upon to do in the Northern Territory. I was one of the members of Parliament who had an opportunity of visiting the Northern Territory, not on the last occasion, when a parliamentary visit was paid, but previously. While I was there I endeavoured to acquire as much knowledge as I -could upon some of the problems of the Territory in order to ascertain in what direction we could develop it with any degree of success. I want to say at the outset that I believe that in taking over the Northern Territory we have applied ourselves to a very intricate and serious problem. I am not one of those who would harshly criticise the Government for the little bit of delay that has occurred in this matter. I think they have been very wise in going slowly, and in getting a proper grip of the problems connected with settlement there. The example of South Australia ought to be sufficient to induce care in this direction. South Australia took in hand the management of the Territory with a very great amount of enthusiasm, and, at the very outset, spent a considerable sum of money in developmental .work. It must now be realized that a good deal of that initial expenditure was wasteful. The waste could have been avoided if there had been a little more knowledge behind the enterprise. For instance, I was told that in the construction of the great transcontinental telegraph system, and also in the construction of the railway from Port Darwin to Pine Creek the original proposals of the South Australian Government embraced the use of timber for poles and sleepers, following the practice which is common in the south. The result was that in most cases the poles and sleepers were eaten out by white ants before the constructors had an opportunity of placing them in position. Further inquiry would have shown that material which was appropriate down south was not appropriate for use in the Northern Territory. We do not want to repeat mistakes of that kind; and this Government, profiting by the experience of South Australia, will not repeat them. The experience thus gained goes to show that timber within a certain radius along this country cannot be profitably used, and that other material must be substituted. South Australia substituted iron and steel sleepers and poles for the wooden ones originally contemplated. The difficulties of the problem are great, and apply to nearly every kind of work to be taken in hand in the Territory. The experience and knowledge gained in dealing with similar matters in the south is of no use in the north ; and to engage in any very large work involving large expenditure without due inquiry and investigation must involve the Commonwealth Government in expenditure that may turn out unprofitable and useless because of the lack of intimate knowledge of the conditions. That being so, I do not adversely criticise the Government for handling this matter with a considerable amount of care. Ibelieve that the Government are very wise, and that they are only acting on the lines of experience gained by South Australia at considerable expense to herself. With respect to the proposition now submitted to us, I think that the available knowledge enables us to take the work in hand. The knowledge that has been gained in the construction of the line from Port Darwin to Pine Creek applies to this particular section of the line. The proposal does not seem to me to involve any deviation from: that bigger scheme of a transcontinental line which must ultimately connect Port Darwin with Oodnadatta and Adelaide. There is an alternative route ; but if this line is to be a section of the main transcontinental railway, it means that that connexion is to be on the western side of the ranges - on the side of the poorer and more barren country that runs towards Pine Creek and the seaboard - instead of on the eastern side, where good country such as the Barklay Tableland obtains. Looking at the possibilities of development from a wide stand-point it seems to me that there will be need for two develop mental lines - the one running through the western part of the Territory, but avoiding the more mountainous country, and the other extending through the eastern portion to the Queensland border. The line with which we are now dealing will assist in. developing the Northern Territory, and will ultimately form part of the main trunk railway. The character of the country further inland is by no means fully known. Some explorers have traversed it, and it seems to me that a route that ought to be at least considered is that from the Katherine River, gradually rising to the high tablelands, of which the Macdonnell Ranges form the centre, and extending southwards until it reaches Oodnadatta. The Minister is not asking too much from the House in requesting that it shall agree on the information now available to the survey of this section. When a proposal is made to carry the line further on, a more thorough investigation of the country should first of all be made by experts, in order to make sure that the best route is selected. This railway is very desirable for developmental1 purposes from the stand-point of Darwin itself. It will bridge over a piece of country in which it is very difficult to handle stock. Some honorable members do not seem to understand why fat cattle travelling over this piece of difficult country show a tendency to become poor, but any one who visits it will readily realize the cause. Owing to the heavy rainfall, there is a most vigorous growth of tropical vegetation, and’ we have growing there a grass that is very like buffalo. It grows very high, and has a heavy flag.

Mr Sampson:

– That is the cane grass.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:

Therefore, I do not think anybody who believes in developing the Territory will have any objection to the proposal of the Government. Although the proposal does not represent what I desire, still it is in the direction of what I desire. If I cannot get all I think necessary, I must try to help forward something in the direction which I favour.

When the Government submit to the House propositions for the expenditure of large sums of money, with the object no doubt of continuing that expenditure, I should like to have from them, in no uncertain terms, an assurance that they bave faith and confidence themselves in what they are doing. Unless one has knowledge of the subject with which he is dealing, and faith and confidence in what he is undertaking, I do not think much good is likely to come from his efforts. If we undertake any great work of this sort, our duty is to know as much as possible about it, and then to be certain in our own minds that what we are proposing is a good thing, and that it will result in advantage to the country. I have not yet heard from the Government in clear terms a deliberate statement that they have faith and confidence in what they are proposing to do - it is certainly very little at present, but is only the forerunner of what they ultimately intend - and that they believe it will tend to the development of the Territory and the advantage of Australia. I should like to ask the Minister, and through him the Government, if they really believe, there is abundance of good agricultural land in the Northern Territory. Do they believe that a large area of that good agricultural land is capable of being successfully cultivated by a white population ? Do they believe that white men - men of our own race for preference - will go there; that they will found homes there; that they will rear families and happily establish themselves there? Those are questions about which I think the Government, when they are embarking upon a policy of this sort, must convince themselves first, and be able to speak upon with directness and confidence to us, so that we may be assured that, at any rate,, those controlling for the time the destinies of Australia have complete faith and confidence themselves in what they are proposing to do. I do not think I am asking too much in asking for this direct assurance. If the Government have knowledge of the question - being intimately connected with it and taking the primary responsibility, they ought to have more knowledge of it than we have - and if they have faith and confidence in what they are doing, they should not hesitate to advise us to go boldly forward. If they are certain themselves, there is no reason for them to hesitate to advise us to go forward, because that is the very thing we want to do. We do not desire to hesitate or dilly-dally. We want those who are leading us to state definitely to us that they are not leading us or the country into difficulty, but stake their reputations that they will lead us to certain victory. Unless you believe in the thing you are doing you are nearly beaten before you start. You must never waver when you undertake a great work. You must make up your mind before you start, and then use all your energy and determination to carry it out, realizing all the time that if you do not succeed your reputation will be tarnished.

The Federal Parliament - and I do not wish to escape any share of responsibility that may attach to me in the matter - has burdened Australia with the task of settling this vast Territory. We took it over deliberately. It was almost the unanimous voice of the Parliament of Australia that it should be taken over, and now we have to see the business through. I think I am not exaggerating when I say that at present we are losing about £500,000 a year in the process. That shows me, and ought to show every one in the House, and especially the Minister who is primarily responsible, that we cannot afford to delay. We must set to work at once to see whether we cannot do something with the Territory, so that we may be in a fair way to see daylight through the task, and have a fair prospect of removing the immense weight of a loss of over half-a-million a year.

The. Minister of Externa] Affairs is; I think, to be congratulated on having this great opportunity, which does not come to every man. He has the opportunity now to show how he will deal with this great burden and responsibility, so that future generations will think of him and bless him. It does not come to every one, as I have just said, to have the opportunity that the honorable member has, and although it is a heavy burden and responsibility, that ought to make it all the more attractive to him. When the burden is heaviest and the responsibility, and even the danger, is greatest, the task becomes more attractive to capable and ambitious men. The Minister, being in control of the settlement of the Northern

Territory and the making of it a great success, lias one of the greatest opportunities likely to come to him in his lifetime. It is the great things with which we have to deal that are attractive and which succeed. Mr. Chamberlain, in writing to me once, said, “ After all, it is the great things that succeed. It is of no use shrinking and peddling nowadays. Those who wish to succeed must risk something, and courage finds its own reward.” Nothing in this world is much worth having about which there is not some risk. Where there are risks the reward is all the greater.

I am becoming tired of proposals for the appointment of Committees and Commissions. On technical matters such as those with which we are now dealing, I prefer the report of a paid expert, who will not be influenced by any other consideration than his duty, to that of a Committee or Commission. These bodies spend a great deal of time in taking evidence which is very seldom read, and is often unnecessary. We need the advice of a good experienced engineer on the subject of railway construction generally in the Territory. Such a man with an assistant, and furnished with camels for the dry country, would travel from the Katherine to Oodnadatta, to the borders of Queensland, and all over the districts about which we need information in a very few months. Trial surveys are not necessary until routes have been reported upon as likely to be suitable. Years ago, in Western Australia, I was asked to report on the country between ]3eve, ley .and Albany, a distance of about 250 miles, to ascertain how much of it was good, to furnish maps, and to suggest a route for a railway. I took about six weeks over the work, and when surveyors were sent into the district to survey a line, they followed my route very closely.

Mr Thomas:

– Was the honorable member in office when the railway was constructed ?

Sir JOHN FORREST:

– It was constructed by a land company, but it has been admitted that the route I suggested was the best that could be obtained. On an expedition of that kind an engineer takes his barometer, his boiling water apparatus, and has his barometric stations for purposes of comparison - in this case the telegraph line would serve as a base - and he makes a rough map of the country as an explorer would do. There would be no trouble in determining in this way generally the best route for a line from Oodnadatta to the Katherine, or from Camooweal, on the Queensland border,- to the Katherine. We have already a number of officers in the Territory. There is the Administrator, the Director of Lands, the Director of Works, and the Geologist. The Geologist ought to be travelling through the country and mapping it, and the Minister would do well to have compiled all the information already obtained, which is considerable, and would be invaluable if made readily accessible. There are also a number of surveyors in the Territory.

Mr Thomas:

– They are all engaged in surveying blocks for settlement purposes.

Sir JOHN FORREST:

– Then send some more there. It would not cost very much. A surveyor might well accompany the engineer to assist him in mapping the route and in compiling information regarding the natural features of the country traversed.

I wonder that the Minister has not availed himself of the services of surveyorswho know the Northern Territory. Mr. David Lindsay, for instance, was ten years in the northern parts of Australia, and is a man of great experience. He knows all the country to the westward of the Gulf of Carpentaria, the Roper River, and from Port Darwin to Adelaide. He is a properly qualified man, and was in command of an exploring expedition through the centre of Australia many years ago. He is, too, of good repute. That is the sort of man I would get hold of. I should obtain from him all the information that he possesses, and send him out to get more. There are not many men with hisknowledge and experience, and he was ready to accept a very moderate salary. Although he was in Melbourne for months looking for an appointment, and although he was well qualified for the position of Director of Lands, he did not get it, and a political’ partisan, without any knowledge of the Northern Territory or of Central Australia, was preferred to him - one who will take years to acquire, if he ever does, the knowledge and experience already possessed by Mr. Lindsay.

The proposed railway would go in the right direction. As to its gauge, I might mention that in Western Australia they are now constructing a small length of line with 80-lb. rails, and full-length sleepers. but are using the 3-ft. 6-in. gauge. When the time comes for connecting this line with the trans-Australian line, one of the rails will be moved to make the gauge 4 ft. 8 in. Some arrangement of that kind might well receive consideration in connexion with this line. We should aim at having one gauge for the whole of Australia. I hope that the Government will not undertake further construction in regard to these trunk lines on the 3-ft. 6-in. gauge, except in the way I have mentioned.

Mr Fenton:

– Can sufficiently heavy rails be put down on the 3-ft. 6-in. gauge ?

Sir JOHN FORREST:

– Yes ; there is no reason why the railway should not be built up to the strength required for the 4-ft. &%-‘n. gauge. The Western Australian line I referred to will be constructed on the 3-ft. 6-in. gauge to meet the requirements of traffic and for the transportation of material for the transcontinental railway, and when that line is completed, all that will be necessary will be to remove one rail out to the 4-ft. 8)-in. gauge.

I complain that the Government have not told us sufficiently clearly what they propose to do. It seems to me to be trifling with this matter to ask for £5.000 for the survey of 50 miles of railway, and to say nothing about construction for another year. I do not mean to say that 50 miles of railway would be of no use, but that we should begin upon a systematic plan of development for the Northern Territory, and carry it out as quickly as we can., I suppose that it will be two years before the construction of this line from Pine Creek to the Katherine River is commenced. The survey may take a year.

Mr Thomas:

– It is estimated that it will take six months.

Sir JOHN FORREST:

– Unless it is very easy country I do not think that a permanent survey, carefully carried out, so as to save expense in construction, is likely to be completed within that time. There may be no meeting of Parliament for some time after the survey is completed to authorize the construction, and appropriate the money, and therefore I should not expect this section to be completed within less than three years’ time. I hope that the transcontinental railway will be completed nearly as soon. It should not be forgotten that we shall be losing £500,000 a year all the time. We require a great deal more information, and might have had it if the Minister had been equal to the occasion. He might have had an engineer and a small staff at work in the Territory six or eight months ago, and we could have had reports from them by this time. The honorable gentleman has done nothing in connexion with framing a policy of railway construction for the Territory, and, without means of transit, we can do nothing with this country. Land policies are of no use without a population, and if people go to the Territory they will be quite unable to make a living without means of transit. If we are going to do anything with the country, we will have to construct railways from Pine Creek to .the eastern border, and from Pine Creek to Oodnadatta. I should like to know what all the officers in the Northern Territory are doing. We have never heard from them, and we might have had telegraphic reports to show what they are doing. I suppose they are trying to make themselves comfortable.

The Minister does not seem to know what can be done by energetic people. It is possible to map a whole country in a few months if the work is tackled with energy. Three or four energetic surveyors could triangulate and map the whole of the Northern Territory in a couple of years. A small number of active men carried out as big a work in my own State within a very short time, and their surveys are reliable, and have stood the test of time. I suppose a triangulation could be carried out over the whole of the Northern Territory, and there is no reason why a great deal of it should notbe mapped in twelve months. A geologist should accompany the survey party, and a geological survey of the Territory should be made at the same time. I can inform honorable members that hundreds of miles of unknown country in the north-west of Western Australia, from Beagle Bay across to Cambridge Gulf, was mapped and triangulated by surveyors of Western Australia in a year. They went up the Fitzroy and down the Ord, and their surveys have been in use for the last twenty years.

To map a country requires men with a grasp of the business and energy and determination to carry it out. The distance from Pine Creek to Oodnadatta is about 1,000 miles, and from Pine Creek to the Queensland border about 600 miles. It would not be a great matter to survey 1,600 miles of country in a territory like that. Unless we provide means of communication, we might just as well give up the Territory and confess that we have failed to develop it. In view of the battalions behind him, I suppose it would be of no use for me to move a vote of censure on the Minister of External Affairs for his neglect up to the present date. I do not mean to say that the Minister is not in earnest, but he does not appear to know how to go about the work before him. He may be desirous of doing his best, but what is the use of that when he does nothing? I hope the honorable gentleman will take the House into his confidence, and tell us what all these officers with high-sounding titles are doing in the Northern Territory. Are they merely surveying a few blocks of land for settlement ? If so, where are these blocks situated? It is to be hoped that they are not in the country between Pine Creek and the Katherine, a distance of 50 miles, described by the Administrator as land on which “all stock would rapidly lose condition, and so be landed as “ stores,” not as “ freezers.” It must be terribly poor country, of which such a. thing can be said. As a rule, in new country in Australia - even in barren parts - it is astonishing how well stock will do. I can speak from experience, especially of horses. They will do well on the most scanty herbage. This country, from Pine Creek to the Katherine, must be a poor place if cattle cannot be driven the short distance across it without losing weight. I do not say that it is not better to move cattle over a railway than through country which is not well grassed, but certainly it is not a very good advertisement for a country to say that we want to build a railway th rough it to bring stock a distance of 50 miles, because they will fall off in weight if driven the short distance covered by the railway.

Mr Page:

– Cannot they drive cattle 50 miles ?

Sir JOHN FORREST:

– They say they cannot. They say that if you drive them from the Katherine to Pine Creek - 50 miles - they will fall off in weight, because the country is so poor. I have examined the map, and the geological formation does not seem to be barren. It is mineral country, but one would think there would be sufficient grass sometimes.

Mr Page:

– It would not take a good drover long to get over 50 miles.

Sir JOHN FORREST:

– I should think not. I hope that no time will he lost in making these flying surveys, which would

Cost very little, and then permanent surveys would follow, in advance of construction.

I believe that a good railway survey has been made by South Australia from Oodnadatta to the Macdonnell Ranges. A sum of ^50,000 spent on surveys would be money well spent. You cannot go wrong in having good surveys before you go in for construction. For every £1 you spend on surveys, you may save £100 in construction. I shall not vote against this measure; but I look upon it as trifling with the subject to ask us to vote ,£5,000 to make a survey for 50 miles of railway. We ought to have provided for making the whole trial survey from Pine Creek to Oodnadatta and from Pine Creek to the Queensland border. We ought to have a statement from the Government as to their intentions in that regard.

Mr Fenton:

– Why to the Queensland border ?

Sir JOHN FORREST:

– Because it is all good country. There is magnificent grazing country all the way from the Katherine to the Queensland border. The whole of it has been taken up already for pastoral purposes, and cattle are running on it. It is the basaltic formation which is so much desired. That and the Victoria River country are the best parts of the Territory. There is also good country near the Roper, and the country to the south in the Macdonnell Ranges is known to be good as well as auriferous. Not only should these good areas be opened up for pastoral purposes, but, if possible, for agricultural, too. But I cannot say that I am too sanguine in this latter respect.

It was well said by the honorable member for Boothby that a question well worth considering is whether in building the railway from Oodnadatta we ought to follow the present route or go on from Coward Spring to Tarcoola with a 4-ft. 8^-in, gauge line, and there join the Kalgoorlie-Port Augusta railway. That would be much shorter and cheaper, I think. I do not, however, give a definite opinion upon this point. I hope that the Minister will rouse himself and do something, and insist on the officers who are already in the Territory doing something. They may be doing good work, but we have had no information. I have no desire to do them an injustice. I wish again to impress upon the Minister that a map of that country traversing all the rivers not already traversed, and making a triangulation of the whole country, is not a matter that should be neglected ; for I should say that we could do the work for not more than £20,000, and perhaps it would be finished in a couple of years. Then we should have a map that should be valuable for all kinds of purposes - not only to engineers, but to land-holders, pastoralists, and to all interested in the Territory.

Mr FINLAYSON:
Brisbane

.- One of the most satisfactory features of this Bill is the fact that all of us can approach the consideration of it quite free from either party feeling or State prejudice. lt is one of those all too uncommon measures which appeal to the best patriotic feelings and the best national sentiments of every honorable member. I have a good deal of sympathy with the complaints that have been made, not only while this Bill has been under consideration, but in previous debates upon the Northern Territory, concerning the delay that has occurred. But in all great undertakings there is a good deal of preparatory or spade work which has to be done; and this is all the more in proportion to the size of the undertaking. The necessity for much of it is not visible, and yet it is essential, and has to be most carefully done. The Minister of Externa) Affairs, to that extent, excites my sympathy, because it seems to me that he is particularly anxious to get a thorough good grip of the position, so that he may be able to put his case clearly and forcibly. He is much to be commended for that attitude. It is also satisfactory to know that the Minister has assured himself, by a personal visit to the Territory within the last few months, of the necessity of what he proposes. He has all the advantage of personal experience and knowledge of the position. The problem of the Northern Territory is, perhaps, the most difficult one we have to face. The difficulty of the defence of Australia, and the heavy demands made upon our patriotism, as well as upon our financial resources, seem to me to be secondary to the claim that the Northern Territory will make upon our true national sentiment, and our desire to see Australia settled and developed. In that respect, may I again repeat that I am not at all impressed with the statement that we must develop the Northern Territory because of defence necessities. I have seen no reason to alter the opinion. I have long held, that the Northern Territory is the least vulnerable part of Australia. I fail to see why any nation anxious to invade or capture this country should land troops at a point where they would be so isolated that they would be practically harmless to Australia, and where it would be necessary to incur heavy expense in securing supplies from oversea. I do not view this as being, in any sense, a defence proposition. The settlement of tropical Australia, the inducements that will have to be offered to people to leave the more comfortable and more habitable parts of the Commonwealth, will call upon us to do the very best we can as a nation, and will place upon residents of southern Australia a tax that they will scarcely bear with the patience they display in connexion with the burden of taxation generally. We are spending public funds at the rate of £500>00° a year in the Northern Territory, and there is very little to show for it. This money is being spent thousands of miles away from our chief centres of population without practically any return to people in other parts of the Commonwealth, and the expenditure will continue for many years before we shall be able to point to something tangible as the result of our legislation and our labours there. I am entirely in sympathy with the view expressed by the right honorable member for Swan, that it is altogether unreasonable that it should take six months to survey this 60 miles of railway. The delay means that there will be no opportunity to pass a Railway Construction Bill this year, and that since the new Parliament will not meet before July next, we shall be well on to the end of next year before such a measure can be dealt with. That seems to be an unnecessary waste of time.

Mi Mcwilliams. - The surveyors will not do badly if they complete the survey in six months.

Mr FINLAYSON:

– I am inclined to agree with the right honorable member for Swan that, if the present staff of surveyors is not sufficient to enable the survey to be made in less than six months, it should be increased, so that we can have a report presented this session, and provision can be made, perhaps, for the’ construction of the line before Parliament is prorogued. If it is going to take us two or three years to construct 60 miles of railway in the Territory, our rate of progress there will be so slow that many years must elapse before we shall secure a reasonable return for our expenditure. 1 notice that the Northern Territory estimates this year provide for an expenditure of £9,530 in respect of the Survey Department. They provide for a Director of

Lands, a Chief Surveyor, three surveyors, three assistant draughtsmen, a secretary to the Director, and so forth.

Mr Thomas:

– That staff is to enable us to get ready for the settlers whom we expect.

– One of the duties, which I am sure no member of the House would try to avoid, is the responsibility for the care of the aborigines in the

Northern Territory. With careful attention and kindly handling they can be made a most valuable asset in the development of this country.

Mr Sinclair:

– Then we shall have to keep the drink away from them.

Mr FINLAYSON:

– Certainly. There is nothing more fatal to the aborigines of Australia, as to any other native population, than alcoholic poison.

Mr Ryrie:

– They would be cheap labour; you would not give them the same wages as white men.

Mr FINLAYSON:

– The aborigines of the Northern Territory can be developed, made better, and instructed in the arts of civilization by being given some work to do in their own country, and I know of no work which is better suited, and for which they would be more capable, than the production of cotton. If I might put a word in the ear of the Minister, it would be in the direction of encouraging, in every possible way, the production of cotton in the Territory - erecting a cotton mill there for the treatment of the raw product, and giving every opportunity for the employment of the aborigines in the picking of the cotton from the bushes. I hope that in developing the Territory, not only by this railway, but by any other railways or projects that are submitted by the Minister, we shall avoid anything in the shape of a centralization policy. I am quite prepared to admit that if we are going to put down big works, such as stores, breakwaters, and a harbor at Darwin, we must of necessity devise some means of making them payable. But it is only a matter of time, I hope, when, by the settlement of communities of people, which I believe can be successfully introduced from the Old Land and from southern Europe, we shall be able so to develop the Northern Territory that we shall have, not merely one line of railway to a port, but a network of railways leading to various ports. By that means we shall develop it on a broad scale. I am heartily in favour of this proposal for the survey of a railway between Pine Greek and the Katherine River. I only hope that the Minister will so expedite that survey that we shall be afforded an opportunity of passing a Bill to authorize the construction of the line before Parliament prorogues.

Debate (on motion by Mr. Ryrie) adjourned.

page 2830

ADJOURNMENT

Order of Business

Motion (by Mr. Thomas) proposed -

That the House do now adjourn.

Mr GROOM:
Darling Downs

I should like to know what business the Government intend to proceed with next week ?

Mr Thomas:

– We shall deal further with the proposal which we have just been considering.

Mr GROOM:

– And after that?

Mr Thomas:

– The next business will be the resumption of the debate upon the Northern Territory Land Ordinance.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

House adjourned at 4.8 p.m.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 30 August 1912, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1912/19120830_reps_4_65/>.

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House of Representatives30 August 1912

ELECTORAL DIVISIONS: NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES

QUESTION

PRICE OF BUTTER

Dr MALONEY:MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

Mr TUDOR:Minister for Trade and Customs · YARRA, VICTORIA · ALP

Mr GORDON:BOOTHBY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr TUDOR:

QUESTION

NEW COMMONWEALTH OFFICES

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr KING O’MALLEY:Minister for Home Affairs · DARWIN, TASMANIA · ALP

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr KING O’MALLEY:

Mr KING O’MALLEY:ALP

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr KING O’MALLEY:ALP

QUESTION

KALGOORLIE TO PORT AUGUSTA RAILWAY

Mr FENTON:MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA

Mr KING O’MALLEY:ALP

QUESTION

DEFENCE

Mr HIGGS:CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND

Mr FISHER:Prime Minister · WIDE BAY, QUEENSLAND · ALP

Mr RYRIE:NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr FISHER:

Mr HIGGS:

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr HIGGS:

Mr RYRIE:

Mr Finlayson:

Mr RYRIE:

Mr FISHER:

QUESTION

SUGAR EXCISE AND BOUNTY

Mr HIGGS:

Mr FISHER:ALP

QUESTION

TARIFF REVISION

Mr HIGGS:

Mr TUDOR:ALP

QUESTION

INCOME AND PROBATE TAXATION

Mr ARCHIBALD:HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr KING O’MALLEY:ALP

QUESTION

POST AND TELEGRAPH DEPARTMENT

Mr JOHN THOMSON:COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr THOMAS:Minister for External Affairs · for Mr. Frazer · ALP

QUESTION

FEDERAL TERRITORY

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:

Mr KING O’MALLEY:ALP

QUESTION

ELECTORAL ACT

Mr THOMAS BROWN:CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr KING O’MALLEY:ALP

QUESTION

TICK REGULATIONS

Mr JOHN THOMSON:for Mr. Sin clair

Mr TUDOR:ALP

PINE CREEK TO KATHERINE RIVER RAILWAY SURVEY BILL

Second Reading

Mr THOMAS:ALP

Mr Hedges:

Mr THOMAS:

Mr Hedges:

Mr THOMAS:

Mr Deakin:

Mr THOMAS:

Mr Deakin:

Mr THOMAS:

Mr Joseph Cook:

Mr THOMAS:

Mr Groom:

Mr THOMAS:

Mr Deakin:

House of Representatives
30 August 1912

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

Mr TUDOR:
Minister for Trade and Customs · YARRA, VICTORIA · ALP

Mr GORDON:
BOOTHBY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
Minister for Home Affairs · DARWIN, TASMANIA · ALP

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
ALP

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr W ELLIOT JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
ALP

Mr FENTON:
MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
ALP

Mr HIGGS:
CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister · WIDE BAY, QUEENSLAND · ALP

Mr RYRIE:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr FISHER:
ALP

Mr TUDOR:
ALP

Mr ARCHIBALD:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
ALP

Mr JOHN THOMSON:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr THOMAS:
Minister for External Affairs · for Mr. Frazer · ALP

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
ALP

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
ALP

Mr JOHN THOMSON:
for Mr. Sin clair

Mr TUDOR:
ALP

Mr THOMAS:
ALP

Mr GROOM:
Darling Downs

Mr FRANK FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr POYNTON:
Grey

Mr PARKER MOLONEY:
INDI, VICTORIA · ALP

Mr FRANK FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP