House of Representatives
2 August 1912

4^th Parliament · 3^rd Session

AUSTRALIAN ACTORS UNION
QUESTION
- DESTITUTE MOTHERS’ ALLOWANCE
QUESTION
- KALGOORLIE TO PORT AUGUSTA RAILWAY
QUESTION
- DEFENCE
QUESTION
- ELECTORAL DIVISIONS: NEW SOUTH WALES
ROYAL COMMISSIONS BILL
QUESTION
- FEDERAL CAPITAL
QUESTION
- WORKS ESTIMATES
QUESTION
- COMMONWEALTH WOOLLEN MILLS
QUESTION
- CONVERTIBLE MERCHANT VESSELS
QUESTION
- EUROPEAN MAIL CONTRACT
QUESTION
- IMMIGRATION
QUESTION
- CUSTOMS OFFICERS, WESTERN AUSTRALIA
PAPER
NORTHERN TERRITORY
QUESTION
- MOISTURE IN BUTTER
SUPPLY BILL (No.2)
ADJOURNMENT

Mr. Speaker took the chair at10.30 a.m., and read prayers.

page 1641

AUSTRALIAN ACTORS UNION

Mr WEST:
EAST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I desire to bring under the notice of the Attorney-General a very important matter, namely, the remarks of Mr. Justice Higgins in regard to the registration of the Actors Union, of which the following report appears in to-day’s Age-

An order was yesterday made by Mr. Justice Higgins in the Federal Arbitration Court directing the cancellation of registration of the Australian Actors Union, his Honor remarking that in making the order he was “ compelled to do a stupid piece of injustice.” Although a number of grounds were submitted on behalf of the applicants - the theatrical managers - in support of the application, the one mainly relied upon related to proceedings by the deputy registrar in Sydney. It appeared that the notification of the application for the registration of the union was published in the Gazette on16th December,1911, and on11th January the deputy registrar granted the certificate, forwarding a notification of the fact to the principal registrar in Melbourne. Subsequently the mistake in issuing the certificate before thirty days had passed for the receipt of objections to the registration was discovered, and the certificate was finally issued as of date 7th February last.

Counsel for the union argued that the issue of a certificate on11th January was a mere nullity,and did not affect the valid act after the lapse of the required period.

His Honor, after remarking that he was compelled to do a stupid piece of injustice, said the mistake had hurt no one, but he was obliged to give effect to the objection, because it had been taken. At one time he had a discretion in matters of this sort, but the last amended act said that if an organisation were registered erroneously, or by mistake, the registration must be cancelled. He had drawn up a certificate of registration.

Mr SPEAKER:

– It is not customary in asking questions to read long extracts from newspapers. The honorable member should condense his quotation.

Mr WEST:

– If I am infringing the practice of the House, I shall content myself with handing to the Attorney-General the report from which I have quoted. I ask him to see if he can prevent injustice being done to a section of the community which should not be treated unfairly.

Mr HUGHES:
Attorney-General · WEST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I shall look into the matter, and see if anything can be done to remedy the state of affairs complained of.

page 1641

QUESTION

DESTITUTE MOTHERS’ ALLOWANCE

Mr OZANNE:
CORIO, VICTORIA

– Has it been brought under the purview of the Prime Minister that in the Geelong Times of 1st August, 1912, the following appeared:-

At yesterday’s sitting of the Court a family of five young children, the youngest being twins, were formally charged with being neglected, and they were committed to the Industrial Schools. A similar course was taken in regard to another family of four.

In view of such conditions existing in a country so sparsely populated, and in order to preserve home life, will the Prime Minister take into consideration the granting of allowances to destitute mothers with families, and so save the children from the cold State nurseries?

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister · WIDE BAY, QUEENSLAND · ALP

– My attention has not previously been drawn to the matter. While it would be congenial to myself and ray colleagues to do what is suggested, it is doubtful whether the work comes within bur constitutional powers. I think that, as- the. Commonwealth has undertaken the responsibility of. providing invalid and old age pensions, the- States might ‘ themselves look after cases of the kind referred to.

page 1642

QUESTION

KALGOORLIE TO PORT AUGUSTA RAILWAY

Sir JOHN FORREST:
SWAN, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

– Regarding the proposal of . the Treasurer to spend 000,000 this year on the transcontinental railway, I ask the right honorable gentleman . where he proposes to get . the money. The expenditure is . not a charge on the Estimates for the year. Is it proposed to borrow?

Mr FISHER:
ALP

– That course was determined upon when an Act was passed last session providing- credit with which the Commonwealth could take up stock at any time. To all intents and purposes, the money necessary for the construction of the line has been’ provided.

Sir John Forrest:

– But not from revenue.

Mr FISHER:

– No. There was no pretence that it would be.

page 1642

QUESTION

DEFENCE

Imprisonment of Cadets’ Parents

Mr HIGGS:
CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND

– In the absence of the Honorary Minister, who usually represents the Minister of Defence, I ask the Prime Minister if his attention, has been drawn to a statement of Mr. Crawford, a member of the New South Wales Legislative Assembly, to the effect that, owing to the financial embarrassment caused by the heavy fines inflicted on parents for the nonattendance of their sons at drill, - some of the parents will have to go to gaol on -Monday next? Will the right honorable gentleman take steps to have the fines remitted? i Mr. FISHER. - I am not acquainted with the facts. It is most undesirable that parents should be sent to gaol for the offences of their children, and I shall, ascertain what can be done to prevent that ; but, if the defence system is to be of any value, the law must be obeyed.

page 1642

QUESTION

ELECTORAL DIVISIONS: NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Has the Minister of Home Affairs any information to give, the House regarding the redistribution of the New South Wales electoral divisions?

Mr KIN’G O’MALLEY:
Minister for Home Affairs · DARWIN, TASMANIA · ALP

– We are We are ex.pecting a report very soon.

page 1642

ROYAL COMMISSIONS BILL

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Has the at.tention of the Attorney-General been directed to the report in this morning’s Argus bt a speech by Mr. H. Y. Braddon, president of the Sydney Chamber of Com:merce, in the course of which, criticising the Royal Commissions Bill, he said_

Time was when they could’ have faced that with equanimity, having faith in the men on the Bench, but that confidence no longer exists.

Is there any justification for this reflection on the honour and probity of our Judges ?

Mr HUGHES:
ALP

– Apparently, Mr. Braddon, when making his speech, was ignorant of the scope df the Bill, and its actual wording. I’ shall, take an opportunity to consider the matter more closely.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:

– Has the honorable gentleman noticed that that reference by the chairman of the Chamber of Commerce seems to implicate, not merely Royal Commissions, but the whole Judiciary of the State?

Mr HUGHES:

– I have before me the paragraph from which the honorable member has been quoting. It would, apparently, bear the construction that it is a reflection upon the Courts, but I’ do not believe it was the intention of the president of the Chamber of Commerce to reflect upon the Courts. There is no ground at all in the measure to which he alluded to justify such a statement; and there is certainly no. reason to believe that the Courts of the Commonwealth or of the States are not in every way calculated to inspire confidence in the people of this country

– In view of the Prime Minister’s answer, claiming all the credit in connexion with the Federal Capital, may I ask him if it is not a fact that the Act under which the Federal Capital was established was passed by Parliament at the instance of the late Government, and that I, as Minister of Home Affairs, had the privilege of conducting it in this House?

Mr Fisher:

– Which Act was that?

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:

– Will the Minister of Home Affairs state whether the amount on the Estimates for the Federal Capital makes any provision for the railway from the Capital to Jervis Bay?

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
Minister for Home Affairs · DARWIN, TASMANIA · ALP

– - No.

Mr KELLY:

– In view of the desire of the Prime Minister to get more credit than perhaps attaches to him in regard to the Federal Capital. I wish to ask him if he will pledge himself to give, out of the Treasurer’s Advance, to the Minister of Home Affairs, such additional amounts as the Minister has promised us this morning that he will ask for when he has expended the £110,000 now provided?

Mr FISHER:

– In courtesy to the honorable member, let me inform him that the Treasurer puts on the Estimates the amount that he intends shall be expended upon any work, except in unusual circumstances.

page 1644

QUESTION

WORKS ESTIMATES

Mr PAGE:

– Will the Treasurer inform the House when he intends to proceed with the consideration of the Works Estimates, and whether they are to be dealt with before the general Estimates?

Mr FISHER:
ALP

– With the concurrenceof the Opposition, I should like to put through the Works Estimates on Tuesday, before continuing the debate on the Financial Statement.

Mr Joseph Cook:

– The honorable member can have the concurrence of the Opposition in almost anything, but not in that.

page 1644

QUESTION

COMMONWEALTH WOOLLEN MILLS

Mr FULLER:

– Will the Prime Minister delay action in regard to the erection of the Commonwealth Woollen Mills until the House has had an opportunity to deal with the proposal during the consideration of the Estimates?

Mr FISHER:
ALP

– That would be an impossible position from the point of view of responsible government. The Government must take the responsibility of its actions.

Mr KELLY:

– Has the Prime Minister forgotten the fact that last session, although the Government, in the first place, took the responsibility of fixing the site for the Naval College at Jervis Bay, they afterwards met the views of some honorable members with regard to it? Will he take similar action in a broader way on this occasion, and let the House consider where the Commonwealth Woollen Mills ought to be situated?

Mr FISHER:

– My previous answer answers that question also.

Mr FAIRBAIRN:
FAWKNER, VICTORIA

– Does not the Prime Minister think that a naval college is in quite a different category from a woollen mill, seeing that a woollen mill requires labour and a naval college only requires brains ?

Mr FISHER:

– The question raised by the honorable member is. not a matter of whether one thing differs from another. It is a question of responsibility.

page 1644

QUESTION

CONVERTIBLE MERCHANT VESSELS

Mr HIGGS:

asked the Minister representing the Minister of Defence, upon notice -

Has he read the cabled information under date 27th July - “ The Toronto correspondent of the Times states that as a result of the conference between Canadian Ministers and the Admiralty, Canada’s offer of a contribution to the British navy will include four convertible armed 25-knot ships to be built for the Canadian-Pacific Railway Company, and two small vessels, but of similar speed, which are being built in Vancouver for the Canadian-Japanese service “ ?
Is it the intention of the Government to modify the Australian Naval Programme so as to include the construction of convertible armed merchant vessels to be used during peace in carrying mails, passengers, and cargo between. Australia and Europe?

Mr FISHER:
for Mr. Roberts · ALP

-The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

Yes.
The matter is under consideration.

page 1645

QUESTION

EUROPEAN MAIL CONTRACT

Mr HIGGS:

asked the PostmasterGeneral, upon notice -

What is the average number of knots per hour steamed by contract mail steamers carrying Australian mails between Fremantle and Marseilles?

Mr. THOMAS (for Mr. Frazer).There is no fixed time of arrival and departure of contract mail steamers at Fremantle or Marseilles. The contract is between Adelaide and Naples, and the average rate of speed maintained between these ports by the steamers under contract to the Commonwealth, during the past six months, was 15 knots.

page 1645

QUESTION

IMMIGRATION

Mr HIGGS:

asked the Minister of External Affairs, upon notice -

Has he read the following statement appearing in one of a series of articles by the Rev. Father Mimnagh, written on a trip to Great Britain (see Bundaberg Daily News, nth July, 1912) : - “ I learned on my outward journey that some of the men working on the Grosse Kurfurst were immigrants who, disappointed with Australia, were at all costs coming back to England. Emigrants with trades evidently they were who were tempted by the reports of the high wages paid to their classes under the Southern Cross, and once there finding no avenues of employment returned to their own land again. These people will have no kindly memory of Australia, and no good word to say of it, the original fault though being their own in pretending to be agricultural labourers. . . . The whole method of choosing those people to go to Australia needs re-casting if the best results are to ensue “ ?
Will the Minister for External Affairs appoint a temporary officer in each of the principal ports of the Commonwealth to make inquiries (during a period of say one month) amongst the third-class passengers and the crews of outgoing vessels bound for Europe, with a view to ascertaining how many State-assisted immigrants are returning because of inability to obtain employment in Australia?

Mr THOMAS:
Minister for External Affairs · BARRIER, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

-The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

Yes.
Neither temporary nor permanent officers possess the power to enforce answers to questions on this subject, or to test their truthfulness unless they are made Royal Commissioners, so there is no guarantee that information obtained would be correct. In my opinion, therefore, it would be undesirable to institute an inquiry in the manner suggested. The honorable member will have observed that in the very case referred to in his question the men concerned appear to have made false statements in order that they might be accepted by the State Government as eligible for reduced passage rates. I will, however, ascertain if it is possible to get some reliable information in regard to the matter.

page 1645

QUESTION

CUSTOMS OFFICERS, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr FOWLER:
PERTH, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

asked the Minister of Trade and Customs, upon notice -

Are Customs officers in Western Australia being refused long-service leave due to them ? 2. If so, why?

Mr TUDOR:
Minister for Trade and Customs · YARRA, VICTORIA · ALP

-I am unaware of any case in which long service furlough has been refused to an officer; but propose making further inquiries.

page 1645

PAPER

Mr. TUDOR laid upon the table the following paper : -

Public Service Act (Customs Department) - Promotion of V. S. Donald to the position of Examining Officer,4th Class, Landing Branch.

page 1645

NORTHERN TERRITORY

Crown Lands Ordinance

Mr FULLER:
Illawarra

.-I move -

That the Ordinance No. 3 of 1912 (an Ordinance relating to Crown Lands, entitled Crown Lands Ordinance 1912), made in pursuance of the powers conferred by the Northern Territory Acceptance Act1910 and the Northern Territory (Administration) Act 1910, be disallowed,

I think all honorable members will agree that one of the greatest problems with which the Commonwealth has to deal is the settlement of the Northern Territory. We all realize what a vulnerable spot it is in the defence of Australia, and the great necessity, if we are to keep this country, as we hope, for the white races of the world, for filling that empty space at the earliest opportunity with people of such a class, and settled under such conditions, that they will form a contented population, developing the Territory and becoming our bulwark so far as the defence of that portion of the continent is concerned. Many honorable members have visited the Northern Territory, and know the condition of affairs there; while those who have not had that privilege have had the fullest opportunity, by means of reports, and of speeches made in this

House, to make themselves acquainted with its possibilities. All of us, myself included, who have been through the Territory, realize that in that great empty space there are magnificent opportunities for the settlement of a prosperous people. The experiments which have been made there in tropical agriculture have shown that many tropical products can be grown with great success ; and I understand that the present Government are establishing experimental farms, with a view to show whether there are any further possibilities in that direction. While we are all satisfied thatthere are many potentialities in the rich soil of that country, we must remember that settlers who go there to take up land and develop it, especially in the coastal regions, must labour under serious climatic disabilities as compared with people in the southerly portions of Australia. Time after time, even in the more favoured portions of the Commonwealth, and in other parts of the world, the leasehold system - the basic principle of the Ordinance which I am moving the House to disallow - has been found insufficient to bring about that permanent residence on the soil, and that proper development of the country, which it is so eminently desirable that we should do our utmost to encourage . in the Northern Territory. I presume that honorable members read this Ordinance, which has been drawn up in accordance with the principles of the Labour party. It is well known that that party throughout Australia are absolutely in favour of the leasehold as against the freehold system of land tenure. Doubtless they regard its adoption as the first step towards the realization of another plank in their platform which provides for the nationalization of the land. We have evidence in the press from time to time, however, that they are not in favour of the application of the leasehold system to their own private dealings, and, what is more, the Government were not at all anxious to secure a lease of the site selected in the Strand, London, for the Commonwealth offices. They would be satisfied with nothing less than the freehold of the area in question. The basic principle of this Ordinance is that of perpetual leasehold. It is set out in section 15 that -

Leases under this Ordinance shall be granted by the Administrator in the name of the King, and (except as regards miscellaneous leases), shall be in perpetuity, but subject to reappraise- ment of rent at the periods provided by this Ordinance, or in special cases at the periods prescribed by the regulations or provided for in the lease.

Mr Archibald:

– That section does not apply to pastoral leases?

Mr FULLER:

– It does, and that to me is one of the remarkable features of the Ordinance. Great pastoral areas are to be taken up under the system of perpetual leasehold. It may be necessary for us in the not far distant future to resume all or portion of such areas, and when the day does come, we shall have to pay practically as much for the resumption of such land for closer settlement purposes as if we had parted with the freehold. When I say that I object to this Ordinance, I wish it to be distinctly understood that I have in mind only its application to areas that may be suitable for agricultural, dairying, and closer settlement purposes. I certainly do not wish to advocate the adoption of the freehold system in regard to the great pastoral areas of the Northern Territory. It is the application of this Ordinance to areas that may be classified as suitable for dairying, agricultural, and closer settlement purposes to which I object. It seems to me that the House should have had an opportunity to consider the system of land tenure to be adopted in the Northern Territory before this Ordinance was issued. I recognise that it is in accordance with an Act introduced, if I remember rightly, by the late Mr. Batchelor, when Minister of External Affairs, which absolutely prohibits the selling of land in the Northern Territory in fee. The Minister in issuing this Ordinance is merely following the system embodied in that Act. The Ordinance provides for the classification of land in various areas which are set forth in section 7. In the case of pastoral lands, the maximum area that may be taken up under class1. is 500 square miles ; in class 2, 1,000 square miles; and in class 3, 3,000 square miles. These areas may be taken up under a system of perpetual lease, subject, of course, to reappraisement from time to time. Division 2 deals with agricultural lands, and provides for the issue of leases as follows: -

Subdivision (A). - Cultivation Farms -

Class 1. - Maximum area, 640 acres.

Class 2. - Maximum area, 2,560 acres.

Subdivision (B). - Mixed Farming and Grazing

Class 1. - Maximum area, 12,800 acres.

Class 2. - Maximum area, 64,000 acres.

I have carefully examined this Ordinance, and find that it possesses several objectionable features, even from the stand-point of those who favour the leasehold system. There is, for instance, the proposal to which reference has just been made to grant perpetual leases in respect of large pastoral holdings which, in time to come, may be partly, or wholly, required for closer settlement purposes. I have no desire to discuss seriatim all its objectionable features, but I should like to draw special attention to the fact that it is provided under Regulation 9 that -

The Classification Board or any authorized person may require any applicant for any lease containing a covenant to reside on the land to produce to him a medical certificate of fitness.

That is an advertisement to the world that the Minister believes that those who take up land in the Territory will have to work under very severe climatic conditions.

Mr FULLER:

– The Minister says “ Tommy Rot,” while one of his supporters indorses my view. Any one who has travelled through the northern part of the Territory must agree with the honorable member for Corio. Owing to the proximity of that part of Australia to the equator, it is hot there, not only in summer, but in winter. I visited the Territory towards the end of July, and throughout my stay the thermometer, I understand, never registered less than 96 degrees in the shade. The heat was very trying, and one could not indulge in any physical exertion, except at great inconvenience. Notwithstanding the Minister’s interjection of “Tommy Rot,” we know that owing to the heat and the presence of mosquitoes, and other drawbacks, the Northern Territory will have to fee developed under difficult conditions.

Mr Thomas:

– I agree with the honorable member as to that.

Mr FULLER:

– That being so, instead of seeking to impose, as is done under this Ordinance, the most harassing conditions, we should give people the fullest encouragement to take up land there. Honorable members of the Labour party claim that they take a special interest in the wellbeing of the wives and children of the people. I would remind them that, under this Ordinance, it willbe difficult for a man to make provision for his wife and family. It is a well known principle of law that a system of trust cannot be established under a leasehold - that in respect of a leasehold you cannot carve out a life estate for your wife with remainder for your children. Notwithstanding that a man may hold a lease in perpetuity our system of conveyancing makes it impossible to do that. Let me quote from a speech delivered by one of the most experienced gentlemen in connexion with land matters in Australia. Speaking in the Legislative Council of New South Wales, on 20th March last, on a Bill proposing to do away with the right to obtain’ in that State any more freeholds from the Crown, he used these words -

I do not like the idea of calling this a perpetual lease title, for i have an objection to a perpetual lease title. At one time i used to be a fairly good lawyer, thoughI suppose I have now forgotten most of my law.

Mr Riley:

– Will the honorable member state whom he is quoting ?

Mr FULLER:

– Yes; Sir Joseph Carruthers.

Mr Thomas:

– I am very glad to hear the name of the honorable member’s authority for I, too, propose to quote a statement made by him.

Mr FULLER:

– This is his latest statement on the subject -

But the objection to a leasehold tenure is that directly you attempt to carve out of it estates under your will, or under a deed of settlement for the protection of your wife and family, you are confronted with all the rules of conveyancing, which will not allow trusts or life estates to be carved out of a leasehold. That is to say, it is held that a life estate is an estate in freehold, and you cannot carve a life estate - that is, a freehold estate - out of a leasehold tenure. How is the honorable member going to get over the difficulty for the people who hold that tenure? That is what I always had to regard in respect of perpetual leasehold, if I called my old tenure perpetual leasehold.

That is a reference to the Act to which, no doubt, the Minister intends to refer presently. The system introduced by Sir Joseph Carruthers, in New South Wales, was specially designed to do away with dummying, which was then very rife.

Mr Thomas:

– He did not say so in the speech which I have before me.

Mr FULLER:

– Probably I shall be able to produce another quotation to reply to that read by the honorable member. Sir Joseph Carruthers continued -

There is the law of conveyancing, and you cannot set rid of it by mere statutes. It is a very difficult thing to get rid of or to alter. It is founded on the wisdom of centuries, and you cannot carve a life estate out of a leasehold estate, although the life estate may be only in practice for five, ten, or fifteen years. And yet the leasehold estate out of which you are trying to carve it may be for ninety-nine years. Then you have to get a lawyer and go into equity to get round the difficulty.

I do not think that honorable members opposite, judging from their expressions of opinion in the past, desire to play into the hands of the lawyers -

I prefer the old freehold tenure, under which you have a freehold grant, and attach your conditions as they can be attached to a freehold.

Considering the difficulties and dangers of pioneering work in a. country like the Northern Territory, the leasehold system will press very much on people who go there, inasmuch as they will not be able to make provision for their wives and families out of the property on which they have spent their labour. These are not imaginary difficulties, but are well known to the law ; and I should be very glad to hear from the Minister how he proposes to surmount them. I have consulted other lawyers, some of them members of this House, and I am told that what I have read is absolutely good law. The people who go to the Northern Territory ought to be given the fullest opportunity to do well, not only for themselves, but for the wives and families they leave behind ; and to assist them in this, should be the desire of all who have the interests of the country at heart. This leasehold system, like a good many other experiments which are proposed from time to time by honorable members opposite, is as old as history. It has been tried in all quarters of the globe from the time of the Roman Empire downwards, and has proved deficient in every instance I have been able to discover. If honorable members will take the trouble to refer to the well-known historian Mommsen, they will find that the leasehold system proved a serious hindrance to the welfare and prosperity of the Roman Empire. The two Gracchi, who were the means of abolishing the system, wereassassinated for what they did; but the fact remains, as graphically told by Mommsen, that the institution of the freehold tenure was the means of placing 80,000 peasant proprietors on the land, and of saving the position.

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

– Unfortunately, it did not eventually save the Empire.

Mr FULLER:

– It did save the Empire for the time being. The interjection of the honorable member tempts one to digress into a discussion of what really did bring about the downfall of the Roman Empire, but I shall refrain. The honorable member for Denison is very fond of quoting poetry, particularlyLocksley Hall; and I should like to repeat two lines from Gold smith, in order to show what, in my opinion, did cause the ruin of that great Empire. Goldsmith said -

Ill fares the land, tohastening ills a prey,

Where wealth accumulates, and men decay.

This lease in perpetuity that the Government has accepted is practically a freehold, and there is no man who doubts for a moment that the residential tenure of the Act will very shortly bedone away with. It will not require more thantwo or three years before the people will rise against the persecutions, limitations, vexations, and annoyances such as appear under this. Bill. There is no unearned increment to come in, no provision for revenue in aid of local government, no aid to taxation in the future. This Bill, as it must be carried out, will destroy the land revenue. It fosters evasion, gambling,, and speculation.

From 1892 to 1907, owing to the greatprosperity of the country, land values ir* New Zealand increased enormously. There was a great development of the dairying’ industry, and a. great increase in the exportation of lambs. When those who had taken up land under the perpetual lease system became prosperous and numerousand knew their political strength, they clamoured to be permitted to convert to freehold, and their agitation was so strong that they ultimately acquired the right of purchase, and are now practically all freeholders. A similar thing has happened in South Australia in connexion withwhat a.re known as homestead allotments.1 in New South Wales, in Victoria, and elsewhere. Men -are not satisfied with leasehold tenure. There is some magic : a,bout the idea -of ownership that makes us all desire to own what we possess. This is shown by the Minister and his col leagues in private life time and again. Our very children playing on the floor show a desire to grab all that they can get.

Mr Thomas:

– This .state of things does not speak very highly for us. The aboriginals of -the Northern Territory are .better than we are in this matter.

Mr FULLER:

– I, myself, desire, in a legitimate way I hope, to get possession of as many of the good things of life as I can. That is human nature.

Mr. Thomas.It does not speak very highly for any of us.

Mr FULLER:

– It is human nature. One of the greatest objections to this and1 other Socialistic fads favoured by honorable members opposite is that they think that the factor of human nature can be eliminated. For the success of many of their proposals it would be necessary to do away with human nature.

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

– Perverted human nature.

Mr FULLER:

– No; healthy, wholesome human nature. Every human being has his faults and failings, and Socialistic legislation will not remove these. Coming now to the history of leasehold tenure in New South Wales, I wish to refer to a speech made by Mr. Moore when, as Minister of Lands, in1908, he moved the second reading of a Bill for the conversion of Crown leases. He then pointed out that 7,000 homestead andsettlement lessees wished to convert to a more secure tenure -

The tenures under this Act will be subject to no periodical re-appraisement. There will be an absolute freehold, subject only to a condition that when the holding is transferred it must be transferred to a person qualified to take up a holding under the Crown Lands Act.

Mr. Moore referred to the objection to the conversion, that it made no provision for re-appraisement -

In theory re-appraisement is all right, but in practice it is all wrong. The lessees live in a state of insecurity, not knowing what will happen them. If the purpose is to take from the individual holder the unearned increment the fairest thing is to apply it generally and to every kind of holding.

– Order ! The hon orable member must confine himself to the matter before the Chair.

Mr FULLER:

– I should have no hesitation in telling the honorable member for Cook what I thought about Mr. Nielsen; but I shall have to take another opportunity of doing so. This Ordinance is, of course, only in accord with the whole of the policy of the Labour party, not only in the Commonwealth, but in the different States. Mr. Holman, speaking at Cootamundra, as reported in the Sydney Morning Herald of21st April last, said -

We do propose to repeal the Bill which entitles the homestead selector to convert his holding, but under any circumstance he will have all this year in which to convert, and I think he will find that he will have six months of next year as well. We think that if we give the homestead selector twelve months’ notice that at the end of that time he will lose his right to convert, he will have no cause to complain.

Mr. Trefle, the Minister of Agriculture, speaking at Breeza on 7th August, is reported, in the Sydney Morning Herald, to have spoken as follows -

He had been specially requested by his leader (Mr. Holman) to deal fully and clearly with the position of the Labour party with respect to the Conversion Act. It was true that the Labour party intended to repeal the Conversion Act this year, but in consequence of the resignation of Messrs. Home and Dunn, a meeting of the caucus decided that the repeal of the Act would not apply to those who so far had taken up holdings, and the homestead selection and conditional lease tenures. The future land policy of the party, he went on to say, would be perpetual leasehold with re-appraisement of values for rental adjustments. The capital value would be based on the value of adjacent private lands.

That is similar to the system which the Minister has adopted in this Ordinance. Mr. Beeby, speaking at Millthorpe on 24th September, was reported, in the Sydney Daily Telegraph, to have said, in regard to the Labour party’s land tenure proposals, that-

The Government would offer land only in living area blocks. The tenure would be perpetual lease ; the rental would be 2½ per cent. per annum onthe capital value, which would be fixed by re-appraisement every twenty years, and the occupier could not sell his interests except to a person who had no other land.

I am indebted to the Minister of Lands in Victoria, and to the Commissioner of CrownLands in South Australia, for particulars regarding the freehold system in those two States. The Victorian Minister has furnished me with the following memorandum with regard to the perpetual leasing of Crown landsin Victoria -

When the reclaimed area known as the “ Kooweerup Swamp “ was made available for occupation, a considerable number of the applicants was impressed with ‘the apparent advantages of perpetual leasing, and preferred that tenure to conditional purchase leasehold, which conferred the exclusive right to freehold ; but, in a limited time, the holders of perpetual leases arrived at the conclusion that conditional purchase lessees are in a better position, as the freehold can be acquired by the latter at any time after six (6) years from date of lease, and! consequently a conditional purchase lease in the seventh year is recognised as a good commercial security.

Crown lands have been available since 1st

July, 1899, for selection under perpetual lease, as well as under a title under which the payment of the first and subsequent rent goes towards the purchase of the fee-simple; but in rare instances has a perpetual lease been preferred. It must, however, be mentioned that a perpetual lease of a selection carries with it an exclusive right to the holder to acquire the fee-simple by change of title, and although it. practically rests with him to determine the date on which occupation under perpetual lease shall cease, with a view to his acquisition of the freehold, yet even this privilege, together with other concessions, does not create any general desire for perpetual leases.

I quote this to honorable members to show that if we are to induce people to go to the Northern Territory, we must, under existing conditions there, offer them something equally as good as, and if possible better than, is being offered in the more favoured portions of Australia, yet in those more favoured portions we find that people, so far from being satisfied with the system of perpetual leasing, prefer to get the freehold in every instance where it is offered. The memorandum continues -

In a few cases of encumbered holdings in the Mallee country, where the lessees are not in a position to discharge the mortgages or to obtain agricultural allotment leases, perpetual leases are accepted as a temporary expedient, as the mortgages can be transferred thereto, and the freehold can be acquired at a later date. On. the establishment of the township of Wonthaggi, which comprises the State coal mine, it was intended to restrict occupation to continuous leasing, but to limit the term in the first instance to thirty-three years; and although it was subsequently decided to seek the authority of Parliament to increase the term to fifty years and to review the rentals every ten years, yet the lessees are not satisfied and press for the freehold.

That only adds to the other instances to which I have referred to show the desire of all those who settle on the land to’ obtain the freehold in preference to the leasehold. The rather lengthy statement which I have received from the Commissioner of Crown Lands in South Australia also bears out my contention. I shall not take up time by reading it, but I should like to quote from the Handbook of South Australia for 1908, page 184, the following passage : -

In 1898, in order to meet the growing demand for land, an Act was passed providing for the purchase of freehold lands for closer settlement. These were to be let on perpetual lease at a fixed rental of not less than 4 per cent, on the amount paid for purchase money, together with any expenses incurred in connexion with the purchase. Subsequent legislation provided for lands so purchased being disposed of on agreement with covenant to purchase, the purchase money being payable by sixty half-yearly instalments, with interest at the rate of not less than 4 per cent, per annum.

During the 1903 session of Parliament an Act to consolidate the Crown Lands Acts became law. This Act re-enacted the provisions for Crown lands being let under perpetual lease at a fixed rental for all time, and not subject to revaluation or disposed of under agreement with covenant to purchase by sixty half-yearly payments, with interest at not less than 2 per cent, nor more than 4 per cent, per annum. The purchase may be completed at any time after the first six years of the agreement. In1 the case of lands repurchased by the Government and subdivided for closer settlement, more recent legislation (1905) provides for payment of interest only at 4 per cent, per annum for the first five years, after which interest and principal become payable as in the case of ordinary Crown lands. Provision is also made for those holders of repurchased lands let on perpetual lease surrendering and obtaining agreements with covenants to purchase in lieu of the perpetual leases. The purchases of closer settlement land may obtain the fee-simple of their holdings at any time after the first nine years on payment of the balance of the purchase money and interest up to date. Up to the 30th June, 349,802 acres - including 14,716 acres of leasehold - have been purchased at a cost of ,£883,150, and disposed of to suitable purchasers, most of whom are successfully occupying their holdings. In place of comparatively few persons on the land at the time of purchase there is now a population of 3,945 adults and children on these repurchased lands.

This shews that the South Australian Government repurchased lands for closer settlement purposes, and offered them under a system of perpetual lease, but in 1905 they did away with the perpetual lease system, and, in order to get the best work out of the settlers in developing the land, gave them the right by purchase to obtain the freeholds for themselves. The system which it is proposed to adopt in the Northern Territory is part of the Socialistic scheme of honorable members opposite. The Minister of External Affairs, speaking at Broken Hill, said -

This then is what the Labour movement means.. In one precise pregnant word it means Socialism. Well, Socialism is your scheme as apart from all other schemes. He was speaking, of course, to the Labour leagues and the workers, to whom he was appealing for support. It is based on social growth. It is the common holding of land, and the means of production and exchange, and the holding of them for the equal benefit of all.

Mr Poynton:

– - No proposal ever made more lent itself to aggregation than will this Ordinance.

Mr THOMAS:

– We are for the moment dealing with leasehold versus freehold. I am pleased that the honorable member for Illawarra quoted Sir Joseph Carruthers, because I, myself, intend doing so. In 1895 Sir Joseph Carruthers was Minister for Lands in the Reid Ministry, and had for one of his colleagues the honorable member for Parramatta. Speaking on this subject, he said -

Now, what are the advantages of this conversion? Let me say, for the information of those who think that the conversion will not be availed of, that the popularity of the homestead selection system has been demonstrated beyond dispute. I have thrown open in Riverina, where there has been the greatest demand for land, special areas which have not been taken up. I have thrown open there land for ordinary conditional purchase, but there have been no conditional purchasers. The moment the tenure of the land has been changed to homestead selection there has been a rush for it. The homestead selection areas which have been thrown open in Riverina have been eagerly snapped up. ….. The honorable member for the

Murray introduced to me a delegate from a large number of Victorian farmers, who subscribed together to pay his expenses so that he might interview me. It transpired in the course of the interview that he represented a large number of families and of men who were waiting for land to be thrown open, some of them being encamped on the Murray. I said that I should be declaring certain land open for selection under the old law, and his answer to me was characteristic of the feeling which is very strong on the part of those who understand the law’. “Do not do that; we do not want that; we have not the money with which to pay the deposit and to meet the initial expenses of ordinary conditional purchase. Give us the chance of taking up homestead selections; we can pay a fair rent for the use of the land ; that is what we want, and have been waiting for.” This has been my experience in other parts of the Colony where land has been thrown open by hundreds of thousands of acres under ordinary conditional purchase, and has not been taken up. In the majority of cases where land has been thrown open under this rent system, a demand has immediately set in. People are beginning to recognise that the value of land is not its speculative value, but the value of the product you can get from it. As soon as people understand the difference between these holdings and the old freeholds, with their fictitious values, we shall have a larger demand for this particular class of tenure.

It is rather strange that only recently I received a letter, and a very interesting letter it is, from an English immigrant, to the ‘foi lowing effect : -

I most heartily approve of the opening up of the Northern Territory, and of the conditions of settlement. It is an opportunity for working men which has seldom been afforded them. I, for one, shall be more than pleased to take advantage of it. I might add that I am an Englishman, and that I came to Australia two years ago with the intention of taking up land. I have hitherto met with more difficulties than I had anticipated from the statements of Government officials and circulating literature in England. The cause of this difficulty, I believe, is that I am a man of small capital; but in the Territory, it appears to me, I shall be able to meet your requirements, and, as regards character, I shall have no difficulty in furnishing you with references.

In my judgment, it is to be deplored that the authorities of Australia-

In Australia, mind, not in Papua - did not early adopt the principle which I am advocating. Had they done so, we should now be receiving a revenue from the land which would be far in excess of the expenditure necessary for the purposes of government.

I may say that, at the same time, the late Mr. G. B. Edwards, whose loss we all deplored, strongly advocated the leasehold principle. The honorable member- for Angas, in the course of the debate, said -

During the sitting of the Convention the present Attorney-General of New South Wales and myself both brought forward provisions to prohibit the alienation in fee-simple of any part of the Federal Territory, and an argument which influenced a good many members of the Convention against that proposal was that the Constitution should merely create the machinery for legislation, and should not itself legislate. No such objection could be urged against my present proposal, however.

I have no desire to place words in the mouth of the honorable member for Angas, for no one could have a fairer opponent than that gentleman ; but I think it is fair to infer that, in his opinion, had it not been for the fact that a majority of the members of the Federal Convention thought they were creating nothing more than a machinery measure, our Constitution would have provided that there should be no alienation of land in the Federal Capital Territory. I admit that there is a considerable difference between land in the Federal Capital site and land in the Northern Territory, but, in view of the remarks of the honorable member for Angas, and of the fact that it was carried on the voices that no land should be alienated in the Capital area - that members of all shades of political opinion were agreed on that point - I do not think the Labour party can be blamed for acting on the same principle in the Northern Territory. The honorable member for Illawarra cited Roman history, and gave us quotations from this and that historian. “On the other hand, I prefer to deal with the utterances of statesmen of to-day, and I shall commence with the honorable member for Bendigo, who said -

The reckoning day of Victoria has arrived. The land laws have been examined and reason, enlightened by a sad experience, has found them wanting.

Mr John Thomson:

– When did he say that?

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– About twenty-five years ago.

Mr THOMAS:

– The honorable member for Illawarra quoted Roman laws of eighteen centuries ago, and surely I may be permitted to go back twenty-five years?

Mr.- Greene. - Ask the honorable member for Bendigo if that is his opinion today.

Mr Fuller:

– I quoted from historians, not statesmen.

Mr THOMAS:

– May I be permitted to proceed? The honorable member for Bendigo went on to say -

A careful study of the history of Victoria leads me to the conclusion that the unfavorable results which all deplore, and the transparent vices which all detest are inherently associated with the principle of absolute sale on which all those lands were based.

Honorable Members. - Hear, hear !

Mr THOMAS:

– I have another quotation - from the speech of the honorable member for Parramatta, made when he represented Lithgow in the New South. Wales Legislative Assembly -

It is the one thing above all others that has cursed this country, and has cursed every other country of which we have any knowledge, and unless it be abolished it will curse these countries in the future as they have never yet been cursed. The initial wrong done to society is in attempting to recognise such a thing as property in land. There can be no property in land in the sense that there is property in houses or in anything else that men made by the use of their muscles and brains.

Mr THOMAS:

– He is not asked to pay anything whatever, so that practically his whole capital can be put into the land for its development. When resumptions are_ needed, the Government resume on the basis of the value that the selector himself has put into the land, and not upon the value that has been given to it by the community. The Government pay fully, and I hope generously, for the improvements and for the work and capital put into the land by the occupant, but do not pay a single penny of unearned increment. I venture to say that that is the crux of the question as between thea leasehold and freehold principles. Men are anxious for the freehold because, if the time ever comes for them to sell their land, or for it to be resumed, they want to be paid, not only what, they themselves have put into it, but also what the community has put into it. Men are to be induced to go to the Territory, according to the argument of those who advocate freehold, not so much for what they can earn out of the soil, as for what they may possibly be able to get out of the added values given to the land by the community. No man has a moral right to this, and, as far as this Government are concerned, we do not propose to give him the legal right. In the leasehold system, we are not parting with the land. We compel the occupier to use it, and we say that no man has a right to own land merely for speculative purposes. The ownership of land must carry with it the utilization of the land. We give every facility to people to settle upon the land, but we demand residence. We say it is necessary for those who obtain land in the Territory to go there to live. It. is of no good to the Territory that “persons should purchase or obtain land without settling on it. Leasehold gives the Government the opportunity of offering to the present occupier every possible advantage, without bartering the rights of posterity. Freehold, which admits the “ sacred rights of property,” to use the words of the honorable member for Parramatta, has cursed every community. We desire to save ourselves and save this Parliament from the curse of future generations, and so we have nailed our flag to the principle of leasehold. On that we stand or fall.

Debate (on motion by Mr. Gordon) adjourned.

Sitting suspended from 12.55 to 2.15 p.m.

page 1661

QUESTION

MOISTURE IN BUTTER

Debate resumed from 1st August, (vide page 1572) on motion by Mr. Greene -

That, in the opinion of this House, the regulation limiting the moisture contents of export butter to 15 per cent, is detrimental to the best interests of the dairying industry in the Commonwealth.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

.- In the remarks that I made on this subject yesterday, I think I showed conclusively that the presence of free moisture in butter is not adulteration. I tried also to show why the presence of free moisture was a necessity, and endeavoured to explain the technical reason why 16 per cent, has been accepted by all the great butter-producing countries as the best percentage of moisture to allow, with a view of securing the greatest quantity of first class butter. I have no desire to elaborate the arguments that I put before the House yesterday, but I wish to refer to one or two replies made by the Minister of Trade and Customs to questions put to him in this House - replies which show conclusively that the information at his disposal is faulty, and based upon what, to my mind, are mere prejudices, having no real foundation in fact,’ A few days ago, the honorable member for Maranoa asked the Minister whether he was aware that 16 per cent, of moisture was that allowed under the regulations of the British Board of Trade for butter imported into the United Kingdom from any part of the world. The Minister replied to that question -

Yes ; but as the standard of 16 per cent, in Great Britain was determined merely to meet the trade in Irish firkin butter, heavily charged with water, it has little application to or influence on the Australian standard, the object of which is to encourage the manufacture of pure high class butter. . . .

Mr Page:

– That resolution was passed twelve months ago.

Mr Tudor:

– The honorable member for Kooyong.

Mr HIGGS:

– Some disparagement has been put on the report, but the passages to which I am about to call attention contain the opinion, not of Mr. Lockyer, but of experts. Dr. Thorpe, an eminent chemist, whose expert opinion is entitled to great weight, has stated -

The Committee came to- the conclusion, after hearing a vast amount of evidence, that_ the amount of water which might be present in a properly-made butter need not exceed 8 per cent. … I think that every member of the Committee was prepared to consider a report fixing the amount of 8 per cent, as being the fair and proper amount.

Proceeding, Dr. Thorpe states that formerly the average moisture of butter imported into the United Kingdom did not exceed 11 per cent. ; that, in considering the fixing of a maximum of 8 per cent., the question arose as to whether some margin or working allowance should not be provided for. Lastly, special consideration was given to the trade in Irish firkin butter, “ which is made by comparatively poor farmers, often with very small herds, one or two cows at most, and which was heavily charged with water.”

He concludes - “We ended up by putting it at 16 per cent. The effect has been unfortunate. New Zealand and Australia had prided themselves in sending us butter very dry; they do not wish to carry water all the way from Australia or New Zealand to England. The Danes had seldom exceeded 11 per cent. Those great butter-producing countries, when the law stepped in and made 16 per cent. the legal limit, said there was no obligation on them to furnish dry butter; the law would condone an amount of water up to the extent of 16 per cent. I am sure that the amount of water in butter now is larger than it was when we took up the question, and the consumer would have been better off if we had never handled the question of water in butter at all.”

Furthermore, it is desirable that the erroneous impression which has been created by one holding a high position in the co-operative movement in New South Wales in the Minister’s mind -

I understand that that gentleman was a

Mr. Meares by stating that the 15 per cent. standard would be acceptable to the industry in Australia should be refuted. This, so far as Queensland is concerned, is not so, and the gentleman in making that statement was not authorized to do so on behalf of Queensland. The strong deputation which waited on Mr. Tudor in Melbourne on the 24th August, 1910, re the butter industry, and Mr. Lockyer’s report thereon, was unanimous on the16 per cent. standard.

Mr Tudor:

– I think it was on that day that Mr. Meares sent me the letter in favour of 1 5 per cent.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– He accepted that as a compromise.

Mr PAGE:

-I remember the circumstances quite well. The Minister, or the Department, wanted to fix the percentage at 14 per cent., and, as a compromise, Mr. Meares said they would accept 15 per cent.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– In the hope that the Department would give way on the grading question.

Mr PAGE:

– That is so. The letter concludes -

I am directed, therefore, to request the whole of our representatives to use their best endeavours in having the standard of moisture in butter altered to 16 per cent. By doing this they will be giving effect to the wishes of a large number of men on the land, and incalculable good to the industry as a whole.

Yours faithfully,

McWhinney, Secretary,

That letter, a copy of which each Queensland member has received, voices the opinions, not of the middlemen, as the honorable member for Capricornia avers, but of men in the co-operative movement, who are speaking,not for their individual selves, but for the whole of the cooperative butter industry of Queensland. In his report for 19 10, the Agent-General for Queensland says -

No fault to be found with Queensland butter this season, and we have not had a single case of excessive moisture; this trouble seems to have ceased as regards Australian butter. The increase in imports from Australia is 45 per cent. and 10 per cent., taking Australian and New Zealand butter imports together. With the improvement now seen in butter imports into this country, the public, finding a better quality available without any increase in price, are buying greater quantities. Give the masses a thoroughly food and reliable article, and a greater consumption may be expected from the same number of people.

Queensland butter holds its own well on this market. The relative positions as regards average prices of the various descriptions of Commonwealth butter are this season the same as they have always been, though Queensland brands made a great advance a couple of seasons ago.

And, again - and to this passage I wish to direct the particular attention of the Minister and of the honorable member for Capricornia -

A large proportion of Australian butter is used by distributers for blending and milling purposes. The butter that the public buy at a shop is, to a very great extent, compounded of several different descriptions. This practice is perfectly legal and justifiable, assuming that the moisture limit is not exceeded, and that only pure butters are mixed.

Minister should think it worth his while to consider the people engaged in it. I am not here as a special pleader for the dairying industry, but they are asking now, as they have asked continuously for the last twelve months, to be given the same treatment that other- countries are getting.

Mr Fuller:

– And not to be ruled by official opinions.

Mr PAGE:

– God save us from officialdom ! I have here a letter from Mr. Mant to the Minister, dated 22nd February, 191 1. He is the butter expert for Messrs. Aplin, Brown, and Crawshay, in Brisbane. He has the interests of the industry at heart, and wants to see the right thing done by it, both here and in the Old Country. His firm, who are exporters of butter, are not anxious that the moisture standard should be increased, except to put them on the same footing as exporters from other countries. He says -

You will observe that I advocate 16 per cent, maximum, whereas the Federal new regulations are to be 15 per cent, maximum. The London buyers are quite satisfied with 16 per cent, maximum. It is most difficult for a factory to tell exactly what percentage of moisture there is in butter

– I do not pose as an expert; but my own opinion is that inferior butters, manufactured in, or imported into, Great Britain, and containing a large percentage of moisture, are mixed with the good butter obtained from Australia, so that the moisture contents of butter sold as of Australian production are thereby increased. Mr. Mant continues -

The present chart by which cream is purchased from the factories is worked out on the basis of 84.01 per cent, butter fat for 1 lb. of butter, and it is proposed now to prepare a new chart for 84.85 per cent, butter fat, in other words, pay the dairymen the same price for 84.85 per cent, butter fat as against 84.01 per cent, in the old chart. I hope you will induce the Minister not to bring the new regulations into force on the 1st July, but get the matter put off until it can be thoroughly threshed out, if. necessary, in Parliament, because it means a tremendous loss for possibly a small gain. During 1909-10 season the imports of Australian butter into England were, say, r, 150,800 boxes, at £2 ros. - ^2,877,000, which, at 1 per cent., means ^28,770. A fairly tidy sum to be taken out of the pockets of the dairymen. This season it would be over ^40,000 if the present rate of export continues. Then, besides this, there were some 46,000 boxes exported from Queensland to other places during the 1909-10 season, say, another ,£1,150, at 1 per cent., at a very low valuation, also all the butter that is consumed in Australia as well as the quantity exported to other places by the remaining States. You will observe from these figures that it is rather an expensive matter to the dairymen, and it is in no wise a certainty that the butter will bring a higher price by having the moisture reduced. The Federal Government may also argue that Mr. Meares, of Sydney, stated that the co-operative companies were prepared to accept 15 per cent, moisture (he did this as the Government in the first instance wanted to make it 14 per cent.) thinking, no doubt, that “ half a loaf was better than no bread,” but he did not speak for everyone, and had the’ matter been put in the light that I have tried to put it, surely the Government would have agreed to 16 per cent. I fancy the arguments used by the Federal Customs are that they wish the quality of Australian butter to be raised to a higher standard by reducing the maximum moisture to 15 per cent., and they say this ought to assist their object. As far as Queensland is concerned, when the Agricultural Department have any butter submitted for export giving over 16 per cent, moisture, the factory is fined, and the butter must be re-worked and brought down to the correct percentage before it can be exported, and I understand that in only very few instances in England, Queensland brands of butter are fined for excessive moisture, but I believe that the State laws in the South are somewhat different. As far as conveniences of checking the moisture by the Government are concerned, in Queensland the churn marks are put on all the boxes, but in the South I believe there are no churn marks put on. The consequence of the latter is this, a consignment of 800 boxes may come in from a factory, the owners do not want it grade marked, so the Government officer picks out 80 boxes, they may only be from five (5) churns (he cannot possibly tell) and they may be found to be right as far as moisture is concerned, and he puts the “ approved for export “ stamp on the whole lot, whereas, there may be some of the’ churns that contain excessive moisture, which latter are all exported. In Queensland one box is taken from each churn and the moisture carefully checked. The result is that in Queensland butters the fines in England can be practically counted on your fingers, whereas, I understand that there have been hundreds of fines imposed in connexion with Southern butters. Possibly this is another argument the Federal people may use for reducing the moisture to 15 per cent., but I should think it is rather rough on Queensland to have to suffer until the present system in vogue in Queensland is given a trial as far as the other States are concerned.

That is the opinion of an export agent, and I am satisfied that it is a fair and unbiased one. When T received this letter I made inquiries, both on the Darling Downs and up in the Maranoa, as to the accuracy of the statements which it contained, and every one to whom I spoke - both factory managers and dairy-farmers - assured me that they were absolutely correct. Here is another statement by Mr. Mant -

We certainly think that, as far as Queensland is concerned, at any rate, 16 per cent, maximum is necessary. We fail to see why it should be altered, considering that this standard passes the London market, which practically rules the world. If the moisture limit is reduced to 14 per cent, the buyers in London are more likely to reap the benefit than the producers, and there is no doubt about it that butter containing 16 per cent, moisture can be of excellent quality. 1 have no desire to labour this question, as I know that honorable members are anxious to proceed to a vote. I hope that the House will recognise the need for some revision of the regulation. As’ a matter of fact, if J. were the Minister, I would not allow the motion to proceed to a division. The dairying industry ranks third among the industries of Australia, and its exports to England in 1909-10 were approximately of the value of ,£2,877,000. Surely that is worth some consideration. I ask the Minister now to agree to the motion.

Mr PAGE:

– It is not. No one knows better than does the honorable member that what I say is correct. Every one of our Ministers is tied up with red-tape, and I am one of those who are ready to come along, not with a pair of scissors, but with a big pair of shears to rip off the redtape and set them free. I ask the Minister to come out of his shell ; to do away with officialdom in this matter, and to agree to this motion.

Mr SINCLAIR:
Moreton

– I have no desire to pose as a dairy expert, but I may say that I have learnt everything relating to dairying, from the milking of the cow to the manufacture of the butter, and the placing of it on the market. As a matter of fact, during the last forty years I have spent my whole energies in the manufacture of butter, so that anything I say to-day will describe my own experiences and express my own opinion. I have no desire to quote the opinions of others, except, perhaps, for the purpose of refuting them. The honorable member for Capricornia quoted Mr. O’Callaghan and Mr. Crowe as dairy experts who he contends have recommended 15 per cent., but if the honorable member will look at the Journal of Agriculture of Victoria of 12th June, page 380, he will see, under the heading of “ Butter

– A large proportion of our butter is being bought up for blending purposes. Quite recently a considerable quantity of it was sent away in an unsalted condition. That butter will be bought up by blenders on the other side of the world, and milk, and probably water, will be pumped into it. Every ounce of moisture that we take out of it here merely affords an opportunity to blenders oversea to put exactly that much more into it. I wish now to refer to an answer which was given by the Minister of Trade and Customs to a question which was put to him on the 10th July by the honorable member .for Maranoa. The honorable member asked -

Whether he is aware that the British Board of Trade regulations allow butter containing up to 16 per cent, of moisture to be imported into Great Britain from any’ part of the world?

I am quite sure that the Minister was not responsible for the reply given to that question, which reads -

Yes; but as the standard of 16 per cent, in Great Britain was determined merely to meet the trade in Irish firkin butter, heavily charged with water, it has little application to, or influence on, the Australian standard, the object of which is to encourage the manufacture of pure high-class butter, and enhance its reputation abroad.

The following, table shows the average moisture contents in butters tested for export from the Commonwealth and New Zealand during the past three years : -

Now. it has been contended that since this new regulation came into force there has been an increase in the moisture contents of butter. I do not think that tHat is the case. It is a well-known fact that during the past year the Department which has charge of this matter has paid a great deal more attention to butter than it did pre- .viously. During the past twelve months more samples have been tested by it than were tested formerly. Here I may be permitted to interpolate that it is not the sample that shows the most free moisture which contains the most moisture. The honorable member for Richmond was a little mixed upon this aspect of the question, but with the remainder of his speech I am in entire agreement. When I refer to “ free “ moisture, I mean moisture which will run away from butter or shows itself freely. I wish now to refer to an article which was written by Mr. Crowe, and published in the Agricultural Journal. It is a very useful article, although, to some extent, it tells against the argument which I am now advancing. I commend Mr. Crowe for the article, and if it were not for the fear of wearying the

House, I should be very glad to get the whole of it into Hansard. In speaking of the moisture contents of butter, he says that the average moisture contents of all samples analyzed during the past year was 13.91, as against 13.82 for 1910-11. That is an increase of only . 9 per cent. He further says that the Western District averaged 14.12 per cent., the Co-operative factories showed a percentage of 14.9, and the proprietary of 14.15. In Gippsland the average was 14.06; Co-operative, 14.12; proprietary, 13.89. In the north and northeast, the average was 14.01 ; Co-operative, 13,96 ; proprietary, 14.16. In the city the average was 13-74.

This is what I particularly wish to call attention to -

One hundred and thirty-one consignments, representing five thousand and eight boxes, contained over fifteen per cent. The following is a summary of the 3,394 samples analyzed - over 16 per cent., 45 samples, 1.33 per cent. ; over 15 per cent., 154 samples,. 4.53 per cent. ; over 14 per cent., 1,458 samples, 42.96 per cent. ; over 13 per cent., 1,231 samples, 36.27 per cent. ; under 13 per cent., 506 samples, 14.91 per cent.

It will be seen that, although the average moisture contents in Victoria were 13.91, a large number of samples were tested which contained over that amount, whilst 199 odd samples contained over 15 per cent. At this stage I ask leave to continue my remarks on a future occasion.

Leave granted ; debate adjourned.

page 1672

SUPPLY BILL (No.2)

Bill returned from the Senate without request.

page 1672

ADJOURNMENT

Order of Business. - Assault by Free Labourers. - Press Misrepresentations. - Prosecution ofCadets. - Surrender of Powers by States. - Immigration. - Western Australian State Electorates. - Australian Women’s National League : Misstatements.

Mr HUGHES:
AttorneyGeneral · West Sydney · ALP

– In moving -

That the House do now adjourn,

I desire to state that theGovernment intend to take the Works Estimates on Tuesday, and, if possible, to finish them. It has been the practice hitherto to take the Works Estimates on the same evening as the Budget.

Sir John Forrest:

– What the Minister says may have been done once; but it has not been the custom.

Mr HUGHES:

– It is the hope of the Government that we shall be able to finish these Estimates on Tuesday evening.

Mr MAHON:
Coolgardie

.- I wish to call the attention of the Minister representing the Postmaster- General to a reported assault committed by free labourers in his Department on a member of a trade union. The telegram which I have received in reference to the matter reads as follows : -

I have complaint to make about the treatmentI received from the free labourers working for Federal Government on telegraph line from Nullagine to Peak Hill. Started to cook for the gang on the 22nd May; all went well to the 10th of July, when the free labourers insulted me in the execution of my duty as cook; told the manager get another cook, I would not cook for such men ; reached Nullagine on 16th ; one of the same men assaulted me in camp, and another called out, “ Give it to him.” I reported the matter to the manager, Mr. Grant. Will the Postmaster-General have inquiry at Nullagine, as all the party are here, and decide who will have to go on the road, unionist or free labourer.

As these men may be scattered shortly, I suggest that immediate action, with a view to an early inquiry into the circumstances, should be taken. It is extraordinary that a man should be set upon in this way, apparently because he happens to be a unionist. First of all, I see no reason why free labourers should be employed on work of the kind where equally competent union labour is available. I notice that the right honorable member for Swan is willing to cheer an assault on unionists.

Sir John Forrest:

– Anything that is unfair is fair enough for the honorable member to say.

Mr MAHON:

– After the exhibition which the right honorable member made of himself on Tuesday night, he should be careful. It was the most pitiable exhibition I have seen for a long time. I am only asking that this unfortunate unionist shall get fair play. I do not know whether the assault occurred because he was a unionist or not.

Mr King O’Malley:

– T - That would be it.

Mr MAHON:

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– The right honorable member did not run away.

Mr MAHON:

– He is preparing for a. retreat from “ the birthplace.” I regret that I have been carried beyond what I intended to say. The individual who writes for the Sydney Morning Herald, and from whose article I have been quoting, added that the Commissioners for Western Australia - met and drew up what theythought , was a fair scheme for the re-allotment of electors.

– The honorable member has not treated him very well. He has spoken of him with contempt as a creature, taking advantage of the privileges of the House.

Mr MAHON:

– Perhaps, he deserves some pity, seeing that he has to serve the objects of people like the right honorable member, whom I advise to leave me alone. The article continues -

Accordingly, he is moving heaven and earth to have the report returned to the Commissioners for review. He has left no stone unturned to effect his purpose.

– On behalf of the Postmaster-General, I undertake to make inquiries into the matters to which the honorable member has referred.

Mr J H CATTS:
Cook

.- I wish to ask the Attorney-General when his Department will be in a position to announce the best way of giving effect to the policy of the Minister of Defence on the question of the fining of cadets for non-attendance at drill ? Injustice seems to have been meted out in a number of these cases in New South Wales. The lads are called up before stipendiary magistrates, and bundled through without any consideration being given to their cases. In Several instances it could have been shown, if the boys had been allowed to state their case, that it was impossible for them to attend the drills, but the magistrates, as I have often noticed in Police Courts, have the lads simply bundled up and charged, no statement of the case is allowed, the cases are run through as fast as possible, and a fine or imprisonment awarded. I understand that the Minister of Defence has decided to adopt a policy of fining the lads 2s. for each hour lost at drill, and compelling them to make up their lost time. He stated that the matter had been referred to the Attorney- General’s Department on 25th July, so that the necessary steps could be taken to enable the GovernorGeneral in Council to give effect to his ideas. I wish to impress on the AttorneyGeneral the urgency of inviting the officers of his Department to go into the matter immediately, so that the cases of injustice which are occurring under the law as it stands may be remedied.

Another matter to which I wish to direct the attention of the Attorney- General is the Bill that has been drafted by the Victorian Cabinet to provide for the voluntary surrender to the Commonwealth of various additional powers and functions, on the lines agreed upon at the State Pre

The control of labour and employment, so far as is necessary to enable the Federal Parliament to prevent and settle industrial disputes extending beyond the limits of any one State, and to provide that any condition of employment determined by any award or order of any authority constituted under any law of the Commonwealth for the prevention or settlement of any such industrial dispute shall, if such authority so determine, be a common rule of the industry concerned in the case of any State or States where -

Wages or conditions of employment in the industry have been determined by a State industrial authority, or
There is no State industrial authority empowered to determine wages or conditions of employment in the industry.

Provide that any condition of employment determined by any award or order or common rule of such authority shall be binding upon all persons subject to such award, or common rule, notwithstanding that such persons may be subject to the award or order of any State industrial authority ; and shall to the extent of any inconsistency prevail over such lastmentioned award or order.

That is so involved that I, as a layman, cannot understand what the proposed transfer of industrial powers amounts to. Will the Attorney- General arrange with the officers of his Department to draft a memorandum indicating to honorable members what it really means? There is another proposed transfer of power with regard to monopolies which is stated in this way -

On the question of monopolies, the Bill will provide for the surrender to the Commonwealth of authority over -

Combinations and monopolies in relation to the production, manufacture, or supply of goods or services so far as is necessary to enable the Parliament of the Commonwealth to control or to acquire on just terms the business or industry of any such combination or monopoly, when such business or industry extends beyond the limits of any one State, and when such combination or monopoly has been declared by the High Court to be in restraint of trade or commerce to the detriment of the public ; or to carry on the business or industry so extending by or under the control of the Parliament of the Commonwealth to the exclusion, if the Parliament of the Commonwealth so determines, of all other persons; or to acquire upon just terms any property used in connexion with such business or industry of any such combination or monopoly.

I am in the same position with regard to this proposal. This is a matter which concerns the Commonwealth Parliament as well as the State Parliament, and I think that honorable members might very well have the services of the Attorney-General’s

Department placed at their disposal in order that they may be informed as to the -extent of the proposed transfer of powers. The third proposed transfer of powers is stated in these words -

In order that the Commonwealth may have further power to deal with competition arising between the States, the measure will further declare that -

A State industrial tribunal shall have power to make complaint to a State Court that an industry is injured by unfair competition in -the same industry in another State.

A State Court shall be empowered to refer the complaint to the Commonwealth Court of Conciliation and Arbitration, or to any authority constituted under any law of the Commonwealth for the prevention or settlement of any industrial dispute extending beyond the limits of any one State.

Such Commonwealth Court or authority shall have power to inquire into the complaint.

Such Commonwealth Court or authority on being satisfied that the injury is solely caused by the conditions of labour under which the employes in the competing industry work, may determine and adjust the matter complained of and prevent unfair competition.

There is another matter to which I refer, which concerns the Minister of the Department for External Affairs. As the honorable gentleman is not present at the moment, I hope that he will see the report of my remarks later on, and will make inquiry into the matter. In the Sydney Sun during last week, an article appeared from the pen of Harry S. Gullett, dated from London, 21st June, in regard to the immigration policy of the New South Wales Government. I quote the following paragraph from that article -

Tas Family Scandal.

Another point about which the emigration agents are concerned is the almost absolute refusal of New South Wales to accept working men with families. Lately I have heard of .a number of cases of farm labourers of the best kind, and also of small farmers possessed of a little capital, who have been refused assistance to New South Wales. They are told that they cannot be accepted because of their children. One recognises the difficulty of placing such mcn in country employment. Obviously the farmer who wants a labourer fails to sec why he should be obliged to support the labourer’s wife and half-a-dozen youngsters too young to be of any assistance. But, while admitting this, it is most unfortunate that the immigration movement should find it impossible to include the very best material that is on offer.

The proportion of ultimate failures among child emigrants would certainly be much lower than that among adults. It is extremely difficult to explain to the British people that an immigration scheme which is really sincere can find no room for the healthy growing child. New South Wales has been especially hostile to children ; Queensland has been far more sympathetic, and so has Victoria; while Canada has also had an open door for them. They are carried cheaply by the shipping companies, and it is a great pity that the State Government cannot devise some means to receive all that are on offer.

I do not know whether that statement is correct, and I should be very sorry to think that it is. I refer, to the matter because this Parliament cannot altogether escape responsibility in connexion with the question of immigration. It is one of the matters over which we have authority under the Constitution. If we find that the State Governments are carrying out an unsatisfactory immigration policy, if is, in my opinion, our duty to exercise our authority. I suggest that the- Minister of External Affairs should make inquiries from the New South Wales Government with respect to the matter to which I have directed attention.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

.- I rise to correct the honorable member for Coolgardie. He stated that at Ashburton there were sixty-four votes. That is not accurate, because, as a matter of fact, there were only fifty-four electors enrolled there. Later on he made a slight error with respect to Grey. The total number of electors enrolled there is sixty-six. Strange to say that at Irwin there are only ninety.

I quote from the Statistical Register of Western Australia. I think it isnecessary that these corrections should be made. I have received a letter from Dandenong, stating that a Mrs. Morton, on behalfof the Australian Women’s National League, amongst other astounding statements, said it was a fact that ‘ ‘ Mr. Tudor has a courier and a messenger.”

Mr Tudor:

– It happens to be incorrect.

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA · ALP; FLP from 1931; ALP from 1936

-I take it that, in common with other members of the Government, the Minister of Trade and Customs has a messenger to attend to his Department, but he has no courier. I do not think that any member of a Commonwealth Government has so far been so ridiculous as to employ a courier. Such a statement as I have referred to should be corrected at the earliest possible moment. Another statement which could only emanate from a lady of not very high intelligence, but vast imagination, was that we shall have to spend £50,000,000 in the next two years because the Labour party occupy the Treasury benches. The publication of such ridiculous statements throughout the country can only bring contempt upon the people responsible for them as soon as they are disproved.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

House adjourned at 4.30 p.m.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 2 August 1912, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1912/19120802_reps_4_65/>.

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House of Representatives 2 August 1912

AUSTRALIAN ACTORS UNION

Mr WEST:EAST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr WEST:

Mr HUGHES:Attorney-General · WEST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

QUESTION

DESTITUTE MOTHERS’ ALLOWANCE

Mr OZANNE:CORIO, VICTORIA

Mr FISHER:Prime Minister · WIDE BAY, QUEENSLAND · ALP

QUESTION

KALGOORLIE TO PORT AUGUSTA RAILWAY

Sir JOHN FORREST:SWAN, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr FISHER:ALP

Sir John Forrest:

Mr FISHER:

QUESTION

DEFENCE

Mr HIGGS:CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND

QUESTION

ELECTORAL DIVISIONS: NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr KIN’G O’MALLEY:Minister for Home Affairs · DARWIN, TASMANIA · ALP

ROYAL COMMISSIONS BILL

Mr THOMAS BROWN:CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr HUGHES:ALP

Mr THOMAS BROWN:

Mr HUGHES:

QUESTION

FEDERAL CAPITAL

Mr J H CATTS:COOK, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr KING O’MALLEY:Minister for Home Affairs · DARWIN, TASMANIA · ALP

Mr JOSEPH COOK:PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr J H Catts:

Mr JOSEPH Cook:

Mr KING O’MALLEY:

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:

Mr FISHER:ALP

Mr J H CATTS:

Mr FISHER:

Mr JOSEPH COOK:

Mr KING O’MALLEY:

Mr KELLY:WENTWORTH, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr KING O’MALLEY:

Mr PAGE:MARANOA, QUEENSLAND

Mr FISHER:

Mr FULLER:ILLAWARRA, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr Fisher:

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:

Mr KING O’MALLEY:Minister for Home Affairs · DARWIN, TASMANIA · ALP

Mr KELLY:

Mr FISHER:

QUESTION

WORKS ESTIMATES

Mr PAGE:

Mr FISHER:ALP

Mr Joseph Cook:

QUESTION

COMMONWEALTH WOOLLEN MILLS

Mr FULLER:

Mr FISHER:ALP

Mr KELLY:

Mr FISHER:

Mr FAIRBAIRN:FAWKNER, VICTORIA

Mr FISHER:

QUESTION

CONVERTIBLE MERCHANT VESSELS

Mr HIGGS:

Mr FISHER:for Mr. Roberts · ALP

QUESTION

EUROPEAN MAIL CONTRACT

Mr HIGGS:

QUESTION

IMMIGRATION

Mr HIGGS:

Mr THOMAS:Minister for External Affairs · BARRIER, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

QUESTION

CUSTOMS OFFICERS, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr FOWLER:PERTH, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr TUDOR:Minister for Trade and Customs · YARRA, VICTORIA · ALP

House of Representatives
2 August 1912

Mr WEST:
EAST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr HUGHES:
Attorney-General · WEST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr OZANNE:
CORIO, VICTORIA

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister · WIDE BAY, QUEENSLAND · ALP

Sir JOHN FORREST:
SWAN, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr FISHER:
ALP

Mr HIGGS:
CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr KIN’G O’MALLEY:
Minister for Home Affairs · DARWIN, TASMANIA · ALP

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr HUGHES:
ALP

Mr J H CATTS:
COOK, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
Minister for Home Affairs · DARWIN, TASMANIA · ALP

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr FISHER:
ALP

Mr KELLY:
WENTWORTH, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND

Mr FULLER:
ILLAWARRA, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
Minister for Home Affairs · DARWIN, TASMANIA · ALP

Mr FISHER:
ALP

Mr FISHER:
ALP

Mr FAIRBAIRN:
FAWKNER, VICTORIA

Mr FISHER:
for Mr. Roberts · ALP

Mr THOMAS:
Minister for External Affairs · BARRIER, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr FOWLER:
PERTH, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr TUDOR:
Minister for Trade and Customs · YARRA, VICTORIA · ALP

Mr FULLER:
Illawarra

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

Mr THOMAS:
Minister of External Affairs · Barrier · ALP

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917