House of Representatives
14 September 1909

3^rd Parliament · 4^th Session

QUESTION
- POSTMASTER-GENERAL’S’ DEPARTMENT
QUESTION
- DEFENCE
LEAVE OF ABSENCE
QUESTION
- CIVIL SERVANTS AND STRIKERS
PAPER
QUESTION
- OLD-AGE PENSIONS
SUPPLY BILL (No. 2)

Mr. Speaker took the chair at 3 p.m., and read prayers.

page 3357

QUESTION

POSTMASTER-GENERAL’S’ DEPARTMENT

Wireless Communication with ‘New Zealand - Postal Commission - Let- terbox Fronts - Works, Western Australia - Undergrounding of Telephone Wires, Fremantle.

Mr KELLY:
WENTWORTH, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I wish to know from the Prime Minister whether he will communicate with the Government of New Zealand with a view to arranging for the establishment of wireless telegraphic installations in. the Dominion and the Commonwealth to insure the maintenance of communication in time of war, should the cables be cut ?

Mr DEAKIN:
Prime Minister · BALLAARAT, VICTORIA · Protectionist

– I have, had a brief communication with the Prime Minister of New Zealand on this question, and shall have pleasure in communicating with him again regarding it. He is now returning to the Dominion from the Imperial Naval Conference.

Dr LIDDELL:
HUNTER, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I wish to know from the Postmaster-General if, in his opinion, there is any prospect of the investigations of the Postal Commission being concluded at an early date, and if, before they are finished, he will take into consideration the advisability of suggesting a personal inquiry into the postal system of New Zealand?

Sir JOHN QUICK:
Postmaster-General · BENDIGO, VICTORIA · Protectionist

– I am unable to express an opinion regarding the probable termination of the labours of the Postal Commission, and feel some delicacy about making any suggestion to its members. Perhaps the honorable member could bring the matter directly before them.

Mr BAMFORD:
HERBERT, QUEENSLAND

– On more than one occasion I have written to the PostmasterGeneral’s Department regarding private letter-boxes, and to-day I received the following reply : -

Owing to a shortage of private box fronts, and unavoidable delay in obtaining a supply from America, it has been found impossible to fully meet requirements of country post-offices.

Has the Postmaster- General, or the Department, at any time endeavoured to obtain private letter-box fronts locally? It is ridiculous to have to send to America for them.

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– There has been a shortage in letter-box fronts for some time past, but since I have been in office a contract has been let for their supply. I have made inquiries as to whether they can be made in Australia, but have not received any very certain evidence on the subject. The execution of the contract cannot be delayed pending the determination of this question.

Mr FOWLER:
PERTH, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

asked the PostmasterGeneral, upon notice -

In connexion with the sums placed on the Estimates for the improvement of the telegraph and telephone services in Western Australia, will he say what works are proposed to be proceeded with in the metropolitan area? 2.Will such materials as are required be obtained as far as possible from the local producers? ,
In view of the depressed state of the labour market in Perth, will be take steps to insure that the work will be put in hand with out delay, and that the full amount of the vote will be expended during the financial year?

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are -

The construction of conduits in Fremantle, for which a sum of £5,713 has been provided, and further construction of conduits in Perth, for which £3,400 has been provided.
Material required for the works mentioned will be obtained . as far as possible from local producers, provided that prices and quality are suitable.
Steps have already been taken to obtain the necessary materials and every endeavour will be made to place the works “in hand at the earliest possible d«te, so that the full amount of the vote may be expended during the financial year.

Mr ARCHER:
for Mr. Hedges

asked the Postmaster-General, upon notice - 1.If he is prepared to give any information as to the work tobe done in connexion with under-grounding the telephone wires and other works to be carried out by his Department at Fremantle?

Will he give instructions that local material shall be used, if found suitable?
When will instruction be given to put the work in hand ?

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

It has been decided to construct underground conduits in Fremantle along the following streets, namely : - Market-street, High-street, South-terrace, and Adelaide-street, a total distance of about 9,909 feet.
Material required for the work mentioned will be obtained, as far as passible, from local producers, provided that prices and quality are suitable.
Instructions have been given to put the work in hand, and steps have been taken to obtain material preparatory to starting actual work of construction.

page 3358

QUESTION

DEFENCE

Defence Bill - Chief of General Staff - Inspector- General - Drum-Major Rashleigh - Fremantle Military Quarters

Mr ROBERTS:
ADELAIDE, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– I wish to know from the Minister of Defence if the Defence Bill is vet ready?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Yes, in a sense, though not yet quite ready for the House. I expect to introduce it in a day or two.

Mr ROBERTS:

– That being the case, will the Minister take steps to. refute a statement appearing in the principal columns of the Argus this morning to the effect that he has been prevented by the state of business in the House from bringing down the Bill.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I have not seen that statement.

Mr ROBERTS:

– It is stated in the Argus that -

The Minister of Defence (Mr. Joseph Cook) has had to delay bringing down his Defence Bill owing to the slow progress of business in the House - and it is suggestedthat this is due to the action of the Opposition. Now that the honorable gentleman’s attention has been called to the matter, will he take steps to contradict this lamentably misleading statement ?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I cannot undertake to correct every press mis-statement. The preparation of the Defence Bill has not depended on the business of the House. I hope to have the measure ready in a day or two.

Mr CHANTER:
RIVERINA, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Is it the intention of the Minister to proceed with the Bill be- fore the honorable member for Brisbane returns from London ?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I propose to proceed with the Bill within a few days.

Mr ROBERTS:

asked the Minister of Defence, upon notice -

What are the duties of the Chief of the General Staff, Military Forces?
What are to be the duties of the InspectorGeneral, Military Forces?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are : -

The duties of the Chief of the General Staff are as follow : -
Preparation and revision of Defence schemes.
Supervision of work of Intelligence Corps.
Censorship in time of war.
Issue of maps in time of war.
Advice on raising and disbanding units and corps.
War organization.
War establishments.
Training for war -
1. Schemes for manoeuvres and staff rides.
2. Training Manuals.
War training and examinations of officers.
Head-Quarters Library.
To satisfy himself as to the suitability of Peace Organization and Training from the point of view of efficiency in war, in such a manner as he deems fit.

The Chief of the General Staff is also the Chief of the Commonwealth section of the Imperial General Staff.

The duties of the Inspector-General are : -
To report upon the results of the administration of the forces, the efficiency of the troops, the system of training, the equipment, the preparedness of the forces for war, and the state and condition of all Defence works.
To furnish a report to the Military Board on the 1st January of each year, and intermediate reports whenever he thinks fit, or is so requested by the Minister or the Board.
To report on all matters in connexion with the appointment of Commandants and officers of District Headquarters Staffs which are referred to him by the Military Board.

Dr WILSON:
for Mr. Crouch

asked the Minister of Defence, upon notice -

Do the records of his Department show that Drum-Major F. Rashleigh, of Geelong, has had the following service : - 23rd August, 1859., joined Geelong Rifle Corps; 1865, joined Ballarat Rangers; 1877. transferred to Geelong Garrison Artillery; and is still serving in the Military Forces?
Is it a fact that there is a distinction for long service which is granted to one class of Commonwealth soldiers and not to others, and that Drum-Major Rashleigh has applied for this without success, and if yes, why?
Why is it that a member of the Citizen Forces if he serves 20 or 50 years cannot receive this distinction ?
Does he not think that 50 years’ military service should be specially recognised?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are : - 1 to 4. The District Commandant, Victoria, reports to the following effect :

No records exist prior to 1863.

The records show that he served as fol lowsJoined 1st Ballarat Volunteer Rifle Corps 1865.

Transferred to Geelong Artillery 1877.

Transferred to 1st Class Militia Reserve 1890, and is shown as serving therein for the years 1891,1892, 1893, and 1894.

As the 1st Class Militia Reserve ceased to exist in 1903 he is no longer a member of the Military Forces.

The distinctions for long service which are granted to Commonwealth soldiers serving in Victoria are as follow : -

Long and Efficient Service Medal, which is granted to members of the Victorian Military Forces for 15 years effective service and who started their service in a Volunteer Corps.

The Colonial Auxiliary Forces Long Service Medal for 20 years’ effective service.

Medal for Long Service and Good Conduct for 18 years’ service in the Permanent Forces.

Ex-Drum-Major Rashleigh has been awarded (a) and (b), and is ineligible for (c).

Mr ARCHER:
for Mr. Hedges

asked the Minister of Home Affairs, upon notice -

If he will give instructions that Donnybrook freestone - which has been used with great success in other public buildings in Western Australia - shall be used in the construction of the new military quarters at Fremantle ?

Mr FULLER:
Minister for Home Affairs · ILLAWARRA, NEW SOUTH WALES · Free Trade

– Yes; to such extent as it may be decided to use stone in the buildings.

page 3359

LEAVE OF ABSENCE

Motion (by Mr. Deakin) agreed to -

That leave of absence for two months be given on account of ill health to the honorable member for Eden-Monaro.

page 3359

QUESTION

CIVIL SERVANTS AND STRIKERS

Mr TUDOR:
YARRA, VICTORIA

– Has the Minister of Home Affairs seen the statement in today’s Argus that a strike has taken place among the operatives of a Queensland sugar mill, and that farmers, bank officials, solicitors, dentists, civil servants and others are working to keep the mill going? Will he ascertain whether the statement is correct, and, if it is, whether the civil servants referred to are in the employ of the Commonwealth?

Mr FULLER:
Free Trade

– I have not read the statement, but shall cause the desired inquiry to be made.

page 3360

PAPER

Mr. GROOM laid upon the table the following paper : -

Papua - Ordinance of 1909. - Timber (Consolidated).

page 3360

QUESTION

OLD-AGE PENSIONS

Miners’ Accident Fund - Case of P. Boyham

Mr WATKINS:
NEWCASTLE, NEW SOUTH WALES

asked the Treasurer, upon notice -

Is it a fact that miners who are receiving payments from the Miners’ Accident Fund in New South Wales are being refused the oldage pension because of such?
If so, is such refusal not contrary to the Old-age Pensions Act?

Sir JOHN FORREST:
Treasurer · SWAN, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · Protectionist

– The AttorneyGeneral has been asked to advise as to whether payments under the Miners’ Accident Fund of New South Wales are to be treated as income under the Old-age Pensions Act.

Mr TUDOR:
for Dr. Maloney

asked the Treasurer, upon notice -

With reference to questions asked 8th September, re P. Boyham, will the Department explain why they paid is. for a fortnight instead of reducing it gradually ; also, did they expect this old-age pensioner to exist for a fortnight on such sum of is. ?

Sir JOHN FORREST:

– An amount of 14s. 3d. was overpaid to the pensioner on account of a fraudulent statement made by him. No prosecution was instituted, but the Department took the first opportunity of recovering the amount overpaid.

page 3360

SUPPLY BILL (No. 2)

Alleged Obstruction : Application of the Closure - Defence Bill - Gratuities to the Widows of Public Servants - Retiring Allowances - Oldage Pensions Administration - Insanitary Condition of Post Offices - Stores Supply and Tender Board, New South Wales - Payment of Minimum Wage by Contractors - Light Horse, Deniliquin and Condobolin Districts - Rifle Ranges - Mail Contract Regulations - Postal and Telephone Facilities in Rural Districts - Expert Investigation, Telephone Department - Public Ser vants’ Furlough and Holidays - Military Reserve, Liverpool - Supply Bills - Works and Buildings Estimates - Death of the Late Speaker : Newspaper Statements - Flinders Island : Post and Telegraph Service - Tasmanian Mail Service - Rifle Clubs and Military Forces : Efficients - Duties of Chief of General Staff and Inspector-General - Parcels Post : Contracts - Undergrounding of Telephone Wires : Rates of Wages - Naval Forces : Long Service and Good Conduct Badge - Coinage - Wireless Telegraphy : King and Flinders Islands.

In Committee of Supply :

Sir JOHN FORREST:
Treasurer · Swan · Protectionist

– I move -

That a sum not exceeding ^562,017 be granted to His Majesty for or towards defraying the services of the year ending 30th June, 1910.

– The Prime Minister knows that I never challenged his word at any time, nor do I now, when he says it was not his intention to oust the Ministry. I am putting the statement forward as a counter to what is being said by members of the present Government.

Mr Frazer:

– How did the Prime Minister act ? .That is the thing.

Mr FISHER:

– That belongs to the dead past.

Sir William Lyne:

– It belongs to the living present.

Mr FISHER:

– I regard it as belonging to the past. As a party we supported the present Prime Minister’s measures afterwards, and made it possible for him to remain in office. I make no complaint on the score of his leaving the Labour party ; every honorable member is entitled to leave a party when he thinks that, by so doing, he can better observe his pledges and act in the interests of the country. It has been said that the Labour party assigned no reasons for withdrawing their support from the Deakin Government ; but speaking on the nth November, 1908, in this Chamber, as reported in Hansard, Vol. XLVIII., p. 2136, I said -

I desire to intimate to the House, and to the country, that which I have already privately intimated to the Prime Minister; that the Labour Party can no longer support the Government. I can only say that our relations with the Ministry, personally, have been of the most friendly character. Although from time to time embarrassing circumstances have arisen, we have always endeavoured to cooperate in every possible way with the Government in regard to matters that we thought concerned the welfare of the Commonwealth. There have been situations of embarrassment in which I have always sought, to the best of my ability, to safeguard the interests of the Parliament, and the well-being of the country. Whilst I freely admit “that we have frequently felt the restraint that a large party such as ours must feel in difficult circumstances, I, personally, have always held that, occupying the position that we do, we must treat any Government situated as this Ministry is, in a perfectly straightforward manner. We are taking this course now, because it is, to our minds, one of decency, and of order. The time might come when one party or the other might take such action as would create a crisis, in circumstances that would render it impossible for the country to learn exactly how the situation arose. I have endeavoured, whilst safeguarding the interests of the Commonwealth, to restrain yith- in reasonable bounds .any adverse criticism, and now that I can no longer do that, T think that I am performing what is more a public that a party duty in telling the House and the country the determination at which we have arrived. I have stated our position as plainly as I can, and have only to add that in taking the course which T did ‘during a previous crisis, I had the support of my party, the members of which felt that until at least the Tariff was dealt with there rested upon us the public duty of giving the Government a reasonable support in every situation that a party placed as they were and are might find themselves in.

With reference to your representations in Parliament regarding the employment of boy labour in connexion with the painting and cleaning of ammunition carts, &c, I beg to inform you that the Military Commandant, Victoria, reports as follows : -

No contract has Been entered into,but quotations were called for the painting of 45 vehicles, and the lowest, viz. - that of Messrs. Stokan and Wilmot, Cliff-street, South Yarrawas accepted.

The Senior Ordnance Officer states that 27 vehicles were painted at the Ordnance Store and 18 at the factory, and that he has no knowledge of boy labour being engaged for this work.

In the first session of the first Parliament, the following resolution was. adopted on my motion : -

That, in the opinion of this House, it is the duty of the Government to make provision in all its contracts for the payment of a minimum rate of wage, and for the fixing of a maximum number of hours of labour.

Mr CHANTER:

– Exactly. I do not blame the present Minister of Defence in connexion with the matter to which I now intend to refer, because I have hot yet received a reply from the honorable gentleman to the representations which I have made to him in writing. Honorable members will be aware that the reason given for the proposed alteration in our defence system was that the voluntary system had failed. The statement has been made in this House on many occasions that the voluntary system cf defence has proved to be a failure, and the present Prime Minister, in one of his addresses on the question, dwelt very strongly upon that statement. Why has the voluntary system failed? Is its failure due to the people or to the Department that has been called upon to deal with these matters? Some years ago a number of my constituents, in that part of Riverina which is embraced by the Deniliquin district, expressed an ardent desire to take part in the defence of Australia should their services ever be needed. They communicated with me on the subject, and I placed their application to be allowed to form a corps before the Department just as they represented the matter to me. I venture to say that it would be impossible to establish a better corps of mounted infantry in any part of Australia than might be established in the Riverina district. It may well be said of the youngmen of that district that they live in the saddle. They are of good physique, thorough horsemen, and inured to all kinds of weather. A mounted corps might be formed amongst them of which any nation might be proud. I was repeatedly informed that it was not possible to form a corps from that very large district of New South Wales, because they could not connect with any other military unit in the State. The reason for that was that the provincial policy of those who thought more of Sydney than of New South Wales would not permit of railway extension, which would have enabled that to be done.

Mr Bamford:

– Another argument for unification.

Mr CHANTER:

– Undoubtedly.

Mr. Thomas Brown. The same objection was raised in connexion with applications to form corps at places with which there is railway communication.

Mr CHANTER:

– I was not aware of that. I believe I shall be able, -before I sit down, to show how unjustly the residents of the Riverina district have been treated. I think I shall also be able to show . that other districts have been favoured. It appears to me that, in establishing new corps, the intention of the Department has been - I will not say that it is so now - to accept the services only of corps that might easily be managed in connexion with those that have already been established, chiefly in and around large centres of population. Every difficulty has been placed in the way of the establishment of corps in inside districts, where men of real grit and stamina offer theirservices in the defence of their country. Though I pressed the application of the residents of the Riverina district, and it was backed up by leading men of every class, and of every shade of political opinion. I found I could make no headway in the matter. The Department said that the nearest military unit to which they could be attached was at Cootamundra, and that the acceptance of the service offered would prove too expensive. In Riverina, not one squadron of light horse, but several, could be established without difficulty. Men of the very best class there are willing to offer their services, but every application they have made for leave to establish a squadron has been refused. Almost immediately after this latest refusal on the part of the military authorities in New South Wales, several vacancies occurred in the service - one- of them in New South Wales - but, although I brought the matter under the notice of the authorities, nothing eventuated. The present Postmaster-General has been more successful in connexion with an effort to establish a squadron of light horse at Bendigo.I am not suggesting that any favoritism was shown; I am simply pointing out the defects of the system. A few monthsafter an unsuccessful application had been made for the formation of a squadron of light horse at Deniliquin he succeeded in obtaining the consent of the Department to establish a squadron at Bendigo. Is our military system still to be conducted on provincial lines, or are we going to allow military units to be formed, regardless of State boundaries ? Deniliquin is connected by rail with Melbourne, but not with the State railway system. Local residents have applied without success for an extension of the State system to that town, and proposals to make the necessary connexion by means of private enterprise have also been unavailing. Quite recently, I communicated with the Defence Department, asking what forms had to be complied with in order that a squadron might be established at Deniliquin, the agitation in connexion with the movement having been renewed. In reply I received from the Department a letter to the effect that it would be necessary first of all to call a public meeting and pass resolutions affirming the desirableness of forming a corps. Those resolutions would then have to be sent to the State Commandant, who would forward them to the Military Board, and they would finally go before the Minister.

Mr Bamford:

– A rather roundabout way.

Mr CHANTER:

– Quite so ; but I was prepared to use the Departmental machinery as I found it. This information having been conveyed to the principals in the movement, a public meeting was called, and was one of the largest and most enthusiastic that had been held in Deniliquin for many years. The suggestions made by the Department were closely followed. A copy of the resolutions passed, together with reports of the meeting, was sent to the State Commandant, and I propose now to read from the oldest newspaper circulating in the district the reply receivedfrom the State Commandant and its comments thereon. Under the heading “ Patriotism Unappreciated “ the following article appeared : -

Those who took part in the enthusiastic meeting which was held last week to take steps to establish a light horse squadron in this district will have good reason to be disgusted with the attitude of the Defence Department, in view of the receipt of the following letter on thesubject-

Then followed the letter received from the State Commandant -

Military Forces of the Commonwealth, New South Wales. District head-quarters, Victoria Barracks, Sydney, 1st September, 1909. Sir, - I have the honour to acknowledge receipt of your communication of the 28th ultimo on the subject of the formation of a squadron of light horse in the Deniliquin district, and to inform you that the District Commandant, while recognising with pleasure the patriotism displayed by the residents, regrets that he is unable to recommend the raising of any additional troops in the State in consequence of the establishments authorized by Parliament being complete. - I have the honour to be, sir, your obedient servant, George L. Lee, Bt.-Lt.-Col., for Assistant Adjutant-General, C.M.F. of N.S.W.

He thanked them for their patriotism ! The people asked, not for a compliment of that kind, but for an opportunity to fit themselves to take part in the defence of their country. The newspaper comment on this letter was as follows : -

The above communication should not be allowed to damp the ardour of the patriotic citizens of Deniliquin who have taken this matter up. . . . There is an undoubted desire on the part of many residents in this district to establish a squadron of light horse, so that they may qualify themselves to take an active part- in the defence of the country, but when their efforts meet with such a response from the Defence Department, it is very evident they can expect but little encouragement from this source. Ministers and members of Parliament go about the country mouthing platitudes and sentiment about patriotism and the need for the formation of active corps in the country to be prepared to defend the Commonwealth, but the hypocrisy of it all is shown in this delightful sample of the encouragement extended to patriotically-disposed people by the Government ! It is all very well for easychair officials to express pleasure with th, patriotism displayed by the residents of Deniliquin, but that sort of cheap condescension was not asked for. We want the resolution passed at the public meeting last week put into practical shape by the authorities, and we do not for .1 moment doubt that that fact will be impressed upon the tired or apathetic Defence Department in no uncertain manner.

That is a fair indication of the local feeling. But to show that there is absolute unanimity in regard to this matter throughout the district, let me add a quotation from the Deniliquin Chronicle, a newspaper whose political views are quite opposed to those of the Pastoral Times, from which I have already read. In its issue of the 8th September, 1909, the Deniliquin Chronicle says -

The Defence Department has been fairly prompt in answering the request of the citizens of Deniliquin to establish a light horse squadron in this district, but it is a decidedly disappointing answer. “ The District Commandant, while recognising with pleasure the patriotism displayed by the residents, regrets that he is unable to recommend the raising of any additional troops in the State in consequence of the establishments authorized by Parliament being complete.” The reason assigned, if valid, is only a temporary one, and might well have left it open to the Commandant to promise compliance with the request next year. There is, however, no word to encourage “ the partiotism of the residents” in the future, and with the Defence Department sleeping twelve months hence, there is no knowing but what our local patriotism might sleep too. But unless we are misinformed, the Commonwealth Army Estimates have not yet met with the approval of Parliament, and it would entail but little trouble, on the part of those concerned, to have the Estimates so modified as to give effect to the “ patriotism of the residents “ of this district.” The proposal for the establishment of a squadron of light horse, is made in good faith, its promoters are in earnest, the material for composing it is of the best quality, and no district in the State offers better facilities for making such a unit an unqualified success, yet, because the District Commandant is unable to recommend it, Parliament is not to be allowed any say in the matter. It is to be hoped that the member for the district .will, at a fitting time, and in plain unmistakable terms, tell the House of Representatives, as he is well able to do, what our wishes are, nor cease to do so until they are complied with, or reasons sufficient given for their being denied. We are aware that in view of Imperial reorganization there might possibly be hesitation at this juncture to give effect to our proposal to establish a squadron, but even then. refusal unaccompanied by some assurance that in any steps that may be taken to put the military system of the Commonwealth on a sound footing, the claims of this district shall receive the consideration they deserve would be a grave mistake. The buffer State policy has gone on long enough? It was expected that in Australian affairs, and, much more, in Imperial concerns State boundaries would disappear. That expectation, however, seems to be a mistaken one. It is the District Commandant in New South Wales who regrets that he is unable to recommend. It looks as if Southern Riverina were still to be regarded as beyond the pale of privilege except in so far as it contributes to the State or Commonwealth Treasurer’s peace of mind. Why should our wishes, in this highly important matter, be thwarted, our loyal services refused? There has been talk of compulsory military services. Under such a system provision would have to be made for the organization and maintenance of a much larger force than that now proposed, but compulsory service would not be in it for loyalty and efficiency with such a voluntary offer as that now being made to the authorities responsible for Australian defence. We refuse to take the District Commandant answer as final, and shall go on agitating for and advocating the enlistment of light horse. As the Estimates are now being considered, a proposal might very well be included for the formation, not of a squadron merely, but of a regiment in Riverina. Deniliquin asks a squadron. Berrigan, we aTe assured, can furnish two. Surely, Hay, Narrandera. Finley, Jerilderie, and Balranald, along with other centres, will be ready with their contingents, which, like that of Deniliquin, will demand to be enrolled.

As it is reported the deficiency is not considered likely to disappear within the prescribed period, it is regretted that the line asked for cannot be erected under guarantee. Those interested may, however, take action in the matter in accordance with the provisions of Part XVIII. of the Telephone Regulations, a copy of which is enclosed herewith for your information.

– What is asked for is the reduction of facilities.

Dr LIDDELL:

– The residents desire that the contractor shall have two days’ holiday in the year. The request does not come from him. The Department has not hesitated to reduce facilities when services have not quite paid.

Sir John Quick:

– Could we refuse to grant similar requests, if we granted this?

Dr LIDDELL:

– Unfortunately, the Postmaster-General, having had a legal training, is influenced too much by precedent. Were a medical man administering the Department, he would regard the matter from a common-sense point of view, and draw his pen through regulations of which he did not approve. Another case to which I wish to direct attention is that of Mr. Kay, an assistant postmaster at Dungog, who applied for six months’ furlough. It is a rule of the service that after twenty years’ good conduct an officer is entitled to leave of absence. Recently, an official applying for such leave, had it refused, because he did not intend to return to work, the Department informing him that, as he was about to resign, to engage in private business, . on the expiration of his furlough, he was not entitled to furlough, such leave being granted to enable officers to recuperate, so that the Department might obtain from them a further term of service, during which their duties would be performed with renewed vigour. Mr. Kay, however, is run down, and nervous, and obtained from his medical adviser a certificate to that effect, his doctor being of the opinion that outdoor life was essential for the restoration of his health. When Ministers and members become ill, they do not hesitate to ask for a month’s leave of absence on full pay, but this is the reply received by the unfortunate officer with whose case I am now dealing -

I have to state that Mr. Arthur Ernest Kay, first appointed on 15th July, 1889,hasonly just completed the period of service (twenty years) which entitles him to apply for furlough.

It does not matter when he completed it seeing that he has completed it.

He asks for the leave on account of the unsatisfactory state of his health -

What better reason could he submit? and in the medical certificate from Dr. C. H. Bowker, Government Medical Officer, Dungog, which he has submitted -

Honorable members will see that Dr. Bowker is not only a duly qualified medical practitioner, but is actually Government Medical Officer for this district, it is stated that he is run down and nervous, for which outdoor life is essential. The certificate, however, does not disclose any organic disease -

And this is a part of the report to which I object most strongly - or serious ailment, or even the immediate necessity for the lengthy leave applied for, and, according to his record, he has not had one day’s sick leave during the whole of his service -

The fact that he had not previously trespassed on the indulgence of the Department might have been regarded as strengthening his application for leave in this instance. Twenty years’ service, without a day’s leave on account of sickness, is a record which few members of the Committee could supply. so that from the particulars to hand his health does not appear to be in a serious condition.

I strongly object to this statement. The Deputy Postmaster-General of New South Wales presumes to set his opinion of the condition of this man’s health against that of the Government Medical Officer of the district. Dr. Bowker. Dr. Bowker certifier) that it was essential that he should be given leave, because he required rest and out-door life. It is evident that the man was threatened with a breakdown of his health, and yet the Deputy PostmasterGeneral says, “ This man has been in good health for twenty years, and how can he be said to be ill now?” Could anything be more ridiculous? The report continues -

In order to provide for his absence, it would be necessary to temporarily transfer an assistant to Dungog, and owing to the great scarcity of such officers -

Why should such officers be scarce ? What do we vote money for if it is not to provide sufficient officers to carry out the work of the Department? as relieving hands, and the want of suitable temporary hands, it would be extremely difficult to arrange for his duties should the furlough applied for be granted.

Because Governments in the past have been so exceedingly parsimonious, is that anv reason why unfortunate members of the Public Service should be made to suffer in this way, and men who are threatened with a physical breakdown should not be given an opportunity to rest? A man would not treat his horses in this way, because it would not pay him to do so. I quote again from the report -

A relieving officer is being used to effect the relief of postmaster, Newcastle, on furlough, and another will be required at Wollombi when the furlough recommended for the ppstmaster there has been sanctioned.

Mr. Kay has been informed that where an officer has only comparatively short service, as in his case, it is not usual to grant furlough, unless the reasons put forward in support of the application therefor are of an urgent or special character -

This officer has a service of twenty years, and, although it is stated that twenty years’ service entitles an officer to furlough, according to this report, the comparatively short service of this officer did not entitle him to furlough. This is a report from the Deputy Postmaster-General of New South Wales. He is the head of the Department in that State, and an officer on whom the Postmaster-General relies for advice. I have my doubts as to whether he can be fitted for the position he holds when he signs his name to a contradictory re port of this description. I continue my quotation - and that as there are severalapplicants for furlough with much longer” service than himself

So that there are other poor devils in the same position as this man, who, apparently, cannot get any furlough - he should, if the extended leave applied for be urgently required, submit himself to the departmental Referee for medical examination at his own expense.

This is another injustice. This man would have to travel all the way from Dungog to Sydney, I presume, to see the Government medical officer there. He would be required to pay his own expenses, and I suppose to provide a locum tenens to continue his work at Dungog. He would be vised when he got to Sydney by the Government Medical Referee who, as a servant of the Department, would be very careful about the report he gave, and would not be likely to err on the side of leniency to the public servant I do not apologize for occupying the time of the Committee in bringing forward these matters. I feel that it is incumbent upon me to do so, because it is only by such action these unfortunate officers in the Government Departments can have their grievances attended to. I hope that the Postmaster-General, if he cannot grant my request, will at least give me his assurance that the matters to which I have referred will be carefully inquired into, and that the officers of the Department concerned will receive the justice to which they are entitled.

Mr CARR:
Macquarie

.- I desire, briefly, to emphasize the objection put forward by the honorable member for Riverina, to the tendency to regard the Post’ and Telegraph Department purely as a business undertaking. There are innumerable cases, to my knowledge, in which the Department has declined to furnish necessary telephonic and postal facilities in outlying districts, because, forsooth, according to the estimate made, they would not show a profit. There is nothing definite about such estimates, and when works are undertaken, it is often found that they disprove the estimate made as to the revenue they are likely to produce. That has been shown by the honorable member for Hunter, in his reference to the Maitland and Newcastle telephone connexion. Whether they prove immediately profitable or not, the establishment of many small services would be of incalculable benefit to settlers in remote districts, and would promote settlement in such places. They are not authorized, because they might involve a loss of £5 or £fi a vear- The Government might very well incur such a loss for the sake of the impetus the service would give to settlement. The advantages of telephonic communication are too well known to make it necessary for me to dilate upon them. Facilities for telephonic and telegraphic communication help to weld the community into a homogeneous whole. I emphasize the necessity for the Department taking a more practical view of these matters, and that is the practical which looks to ultimate ends rather than to immediate results. It would pay us well to be less stringent in asking that these facilities, when given, shall show a profit straight away. I am tired of writing to many of my constituents to the effect that this or that proposed telephone connexion cannot be established, because the Department consider that it will not pay. Cases have come under my notice in which applicants have offered to provide the telephone poles, and to do other work in connexion with a proposed line, and have then been asked to give a guarantee. These conditions could be substantially modified, even if all that I should wish “for cannot be done.

Mr BOWDEN:
Nepean

.- My complaint in regard to the Postal Department is that an application for the construction of a telephone line is often met with the reply that something in the nature of a guarantee must be given, and that, after the persons concerned have gone to the trouble of meeting and arranging to give the requisite guarantee, they are told that the line will be erected “ as soon as the necessary funds are available.” The remarks made by the honorable member for Macquarie have recalled to my mind the negotiations for the erection of a telephone line from Penrith to Glenbrook. The original proposal was to carry the line from Penrith to Emu Plains, but after a question had been raised as to whether or not a guarantee should be given, the residents of Glenbrook agitated for a telephone line from Springwood to Glenbrook, so that they might be able to tap the mountain trunk line. It was then reported that that main line was so overloaded that, in the opinion of the Department, it would be better for the .residents of Glenbrook to connect with Penrith through Emu Plains, and that they should join with the people of Emu Plains in securing such communication. A report on the proposal was obtained, and the residents of Emu Plains and Glenbrook undertook to make good the deficiency of £5 or £fi per annum which it was estimated would be shown on the working of the line. After they had given that undertaking, however, they were informed that the line would be erected “ as soon as funds were available.” Whether that means that they are to wait until next year’s Estimates are submitted, or that the necessary provision for the work has been made in the Estimates for Additions, New Works and Buildings, which have just been passed, and which include a large vote for new telephone communications, I do not know. The system, however, is very unsatisfactory, and dissatisfaction must arise when the people of two districts, acting practically on the suggestion of the Department, hold public meetings, make all arrangements for giving the required guarantee, and are then met with the stereotyped reply to which I have referred. I wish now to direct the attention of the Minister of Defence to the proposed military reserve near Liverpool. The project, which will involve a very considerable outlay, has been before the public for over two years, and lengthy negotiations have taken place with the State Government with reference to the acquisition of the Crown lands within the large area that it is proposed to take over for artillery practice and other military purposes. On the 10th August, 1907, the Sydney Daily Telegraph published a sketch plan showing the proposed reserve, and since that time the undertaking has been more or less tied up. The authorities have given notice to holders of property within the area to be acquired that they will not pay for improvements made since that date, and something in the nature of a general notice has been given that the Crown intend to take over certain lands. The position is most unsatisfactory to the people concerned. There are in the neighbourhood of the Moorbank Estate, as well as in other parts near Liverpool, many land-owners who are interested. One of these writes to me that he received notice that his land was required -

To form portion of a range for artillery practice, and that, consequently, the authorities would resist payment for future improvements. Under these circumstances, as I cannot well cultivate or improve it, my land has become useless. The military have virtually taken possession of the land…..

– A great many of them are not entitled to retire.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I do not see anything unreasonable in it, but I do see something very unreasonable in the suggestion that the hospitals should be satisfied with a payment of 5s. a week for the treatment of every old-age pensioner who may be sent to them by the authorities. Five shillings a week does not pay for the keep of the inmates of these institutions, and sometimes 10s. a week would not do so. But whatever amount is. payable to a pensioner, it should, while he is an inmate of an institution, be payable to that institution. In nearly every case the pensioners themselves would be satisfied with this arrangement, which obtained under State control. Those who are responsible for the management of these institutions feel that the Federal law deals with them much less liberally than did the State law. The aim should be to do justice to all concerned, and humanitarian legislation must be humanely administered if it is to cany out the intentions of the Legislature.

Mr HENRY WILLIS:
Robertson

– I agree with what has been said by the honorable member for Calare. It was thought that under Commonwealth control, old-age pensions administration would be more liberal than under State control ; but, either because our Acts have been badly drawn, or because they are being wrongly interpreted, that hope has not been fulfilled. If a pensioner’ is an inmate of an institution, the Government should be willing to pay his pension to that institution. These places are supported, for the most part, by private subscription, for the nursing and proper care of those who are old, feeble, and sick, and unable to look after themselves. In them, the aged are housed, fed, and provided with medical treatment, and the Government should do what they can to assist those who manage them. I have received from the Secretary to the Mudgee Hospital a letter dealing with the subject, in these terms -

At the. regular monthly meeting of the Com mittee of the above institution, held on the 7th instant, mention was made of the fact that the Commonwealth Government had agreed to pay 5s. per week on account of old-age pensioners who might be inmates. This amount is considered too low, and I was instructed to write and ask you to kindly use your best endeavours to have it increased to 7s. 6d. per week, or, at the least,1s. per day, which seems very reasonable, as it is scarcely possible to feed a patient and give him medical and nursing comforts for less than1s. per day.

The Minister has stated, by interjection, that this 5s. a week will not be payable to institutions, except in respect to pensioners sent there by magistrates - a mean and most unreasonable arrangement.

Mr Roberts:

– How did the honorable member vote when I’ tried to have another arrangement made ?

Mr HENRY WILLIS:

– I have always voted in the interests of the poor and the sick.

Sir John Forrest:

– The Government must administer the law. I commend the attention of the honorable member to sections 45 and 47 of the Act.

Mr HENRY WILLIS:

– The Act provides that old persons without means may obtain a pension of 10s. per week. What does it matter to the Government whether such pensions are paid directly to the pensioners or to the institutions in which they are being sheltered and succoured? I hope that the Minister will see that a reasonable interpretation is put on the Act, so that justice may be done to all concerned.

Mr WATKINS:
Newcastle

.- In opening the discussion this afternoon, the honorable member for Wide Bay made some statements with regard to a particular matter which I think it well to emphasize. I take it that it is the duty of the Government of the day at all times to vindicate the honour of this House. Statements have been published from time to time - and I think their publication was begun chiefly in periodicals issued by Messrs.

Fitchett Bros. - to which I think strong exception should be taken. I have here a copy of the Australian Review of Reviews, in which honorable members of this House are distinctly blamed for the death of the late Speaker. I think it is time that the Government took some stand on behalf of the honour of this House to deny, if they cannot affirm, the statements that are being made. I quote from an article published in the September number of the Review of Reviews for Australasia : -

The early morning of Friday, 23rd July, 1909, will live vividly in the mind of every Federal member. For some fourteen hours the Federal House had been wordily fighting in a fashion that would have been a disgrace to a pack of savages wrangling in some inter-tribal quarrel. Sir William Lyne and some of the members of the Labour party were the “chief offenders.

Mr Hutchison:

– They are deliberate lies. Nothing else.

Mr WATKINS:

– The inference to be drawn from this article is that the late Speaker was in the chair during the whole of the long sitting referred to. Every member of the Government, as well as every member of the House, who was present on the occasion, is aware that the Speaker was not in the chair during the whole of that night.

Sir John Forrest:

– He was in the chamber a long time.

Mr WATKINS:

– I beg the Minister’s pardon. I was present during the whole of the evening.

Mr Wise:

– The late Speaker was not in the chamber from half-past six p.m. until four o’clock in the morning.

Mr WATKINS:

– He was in his room.

Mr Wilks:

– He was in the chamber for some time, but not in the chair.

Sir John Forrest:

– That is the position.

Mr WATKINS:

– The article continues -

There can be no doubt that Sir Frederick Holder succumbed to the dreadful strain to which he had been subjected by such a disorderly House. Pages of vivid language could not give such a description of the condition into which the House had got as was given by the Speaker’s last nords a few moments before he was stricken down. Surveying the House in its wild disorder, he had said, as though the words were wrung from him, “ Dreadful ! Dreadful !”

Mr WATKINS:

The Minister of Defence, Mr. Joseph Cook, has had to delay the bringing down of his Defence Bill owing to the slow progress of business in the House.

The article goes on to infer that the slow progress is due entirely to the Opposition. When questioned on the matter the Minister, much against his will, and after one evasive reply, had to admit that the Bill is not yet ready ; that the Argus is misleading the public when it makes these statements, and that so far as the introduction of the Defence Bill is concerned it has not been prevented by any slow progress of business or any obstruction due to the Opposition. I shall refer to one other little matter in connexion with, defence, and then I shall have finished. I notice that the Minister spoke yesterday at a salon to a gathering of ladies. We are not informed as to how many were there, but apparently the Minister of Defence addressed them at their request.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– There were about 150 present.

Mr ROBERTS:

– The Argus perhaps thought the number present was not sufficiently large to warrant it in publishing details, but it is pleasing to know that in order to hear “An interesting and important speech’’ by the Minister on “ One Discipline, One Control” and “The Pacific Fleet,” and “having reference to the general policy of the present Government and particularly to his defence proposals,” about 150 ladies from the whole of Melbourne and its suburbs foregathered at the salon.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– It was held in a private dwelling, and there were as many present as could be packed into the house.

Mr ROBERTS:

– I touch upon the subject chiefly because, although invited to say something, the Minister seems to have been particularly careful, since he is reported as saying -

He hoped they would not expect him to unfold the defence proposals of the Government;

This was to be an important speech, particularly in relation to the defence proposals, but in it the honorable gentleman did not unfold ‘he defence proposals of the Government - I presume because he is not even yet ready to do so.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I explained the reason - that my duty was to this House first.

Mr ROBERTS:

– The reason probably was that despite the statements repeatedly published in the press, that this business could not be brought down because of obstruction by the Opposition, the Minister is not ready yet to deal with the defence proposals of the Government. Any member of the Ministry or of the House has a perfect right to address the electors of the Commonwealth wherever they will gather, but I think I am justified in raising a. protest against Ministers meeting in private places some few specially interested persons and making to them statements which ought to be made to the House, in order to- influence the public mind in a direction in which it should not be influenced. Every statement made by Ministers can be published in the press to the extent they desire. We find meetings of this character growing in Australia, until now the Defence proposals, the blood and thunder, carnage and horrors of war, are taken by the gallant Minister of Defence into private houses and ladies’ salons, instead of being touched upon in Parliament, where they might be dealt with in the manner their importance demands. One point is worthy of notice. The Minister has been reading a book by some Danish professor, from which he has discovered the way in which history is taught in Denmark. He said -

They had revised their school history books bv taking out matters of less moment and filling the page with an account of those radiant days and events of the past which had been all important to them as a people.

– We shall have in a few weeks, I believe, a visit from a gentleman whose military qualifications ‘are undoubted, and who stands high in the military sendee of the Empire. If the reply to my question were put before him, and he had any knowledge whatever of the conditions pertaining to Australia, his first question would be, “ Who and what is the Minister of Defence that he could give such replies in the House?”

Mr. TUDOR (Yarra; [9.59].- I desire to bring under the notice ot the Treasurer, who has invited honorable members to put before him specific cases relating to the administration ot the Old-Age Pensions Act, in order that he may be able to deal with them, one or two matters that I think worthy

Of his attention. 1 have hitherto sent complaints direct to the Commissioner, and admit that I have obtained great satisfaction from him. 1 believe that the Commissioner and his staff are doing their utmost to administer the Act fairly, but 1 have before me a case which I think the Treasurer should have brought under his attention. In a letter dated 6th instant, the Deputy Commissioner for Victoria, Mr. A. B. Weire, replied to a claimant for an old-age pension -

I have to acquaint you that your claim for a pension certificate has been rejected on the ground that you have not been naturalized for three years.

That reply was furnished, although on 13th August last, assent was given to an Act providing that it is not necessary that claimants for old-age pensions shall have been naturalized for three years. I do not think that it would take an officer three weeks to learn of the passing of an Act providing for an increment to any public servant, and as it is quite possible that similar replies may have been sent to other applicants, 1 trust that the Treasurer will inquire into the matter, and have fresh notices sent out.

Sir John Forrest:

– Certainly. It is a very bad case.

Mr TUDOR:

– I have been treated with the utmost courtesy by the officers of the Department, and, as near as I can remember, every case that I have submitted to them has been dealt with as expeditiously as possible. I recognise that difficulties are likely to arise in the administration of. a new and extensive system, but this is certainly a very hard case. Foreigners to whom such replies have been sent may not prosecute their claims for a pension, and I therefore hope that amended answers will be sent out in such cases, so that the claimants may obtain their pensions as from the date of their original applications, and not have to wait twelve months or three years.. It is well known to many honorable members that under the Victorian Old-age Pensions Act, recipients of old-age pensions had to hand over to the Commissioner the deeds of their properties. I understood that in such cases the deeds were now being returned, but the Deputy Commissioner in Victoria, recently wrote a letter stating that -

The Federal Old-age Pensions Act does not in any way affect the properties of pensioners whose deeds are held by the Victorian Government. At the same time, it is proposed to pass legislation dealing with the return of the deeds mentioned. As soon as such legislation becomes law, steps will be taken to return the deeds to the pensioners interested.

– That dear lady knew well the frail life which the late Speaker had. I resent strongly such an imputation as I have quoted, and I tell those whose lying lips utter it, whether in the press or the pulpit, that they are demeaning themselves as men, that they are lowering themselves and their honour, and are a disgrace to their kind. If such a statement were true, were there not sufficient friends of the dead man in this House, to utter it when we were speaking in his praise? May I appeal to the Prime Minister to let the speeches which were made in this House just after the late Speaker’s death be spread broadcast, so that they may give the answer to the calumny? I have finished with that subject. The Treasurer has to thank bis inability to see the injustice of the administration of the present Old-age Pensions Act, and the iniquitous number of questions asked under the regulations, for nine-tenths of the debate tonight. If the previous Ministry, of which I was a supporter, were to blame for those infamous questions, how much more blame should be attached to the Ministry, or Minister, who has permitted them to continue? Does the Postmaster-General support the infamy of those questions? The Treasurer’s troubles, forsooth, about old-age pensioners ! He would rather deck himself out in about £50 worth of gold lace and trot about - a show for the Gods. I hold here a copy of a letter which I sent to the Department in reference to an old man named William Hill. I asked them to let me know why he got only 4s. per week. I stated that he was eighty-two years of age, ‘ and had a life annuity from his mother’s estate of £14 or £15 a year. He received8s. and 10s. under the Victorian Old-age Pensions Act; yet he is offered a pittance of 4s. How would the Treasurer like his father, eighty years of age, to be treated in that scandalous and disgraceful fashion? He may laugh and jeer at it; but let me tell him that the people outside do not admire him. He dare not defend these questions before any meeting in this city or other large centre of population. The idea of asking an old man or an old woman of sixty-five years of age, “ What was the maiden name of your mother?” What has that to do with an old man or woman who wants 10s. a week - not money which the Treasurer has given, but which the people are paying by means of taxation ? Let me read another letter to try if I can possibly persuade this old man, between sixty and seventy years of age, to have a little more commiseration for these other old people. This letter is from an old gentleman who has raised a large family; and I am reading it on behalf of the honorable member for Fawkner, who is unable to be present to-night. It is. as follows : -

I applied for an old-age pension at the latter end of June. An officer called inJuly, and after due inquiries remarked, “You will have no bother. You are all right.” Appeared before Mr. Meehan, the magistrate, at Prahran, early this month ; examination satisfactory ; recommended to the Commissioner for ten shillings. You, sir, may imagine my surprise and indignation when last week at the Windsor P.O. I was paid 4s. per week. I called on Mr. Osborne to find where the mistake lay - as a mistake I thought it must be. He told me to see Mr. Weire at the Old-age Pensions Office, who had all the papers. Mr. Weire got the papers and said, “ You have 10s. superannuation from the Amalgamated Society of Engineers.”

Section 24 of the Act allows the income to be made up to *£52* a year, and that superannuation allowance only accounts for £26- {: type="1" start="2"} 0. You have assistance from a son. 1. You have£14 in the Savings Bank. 2. You have£20 worth of furniture. £20 worth of furniture ! {: .speaker-L1D} ##### Mr Henry Willis: -- Will that provide him with bread? {: .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY: -- The treasurer had better answer that question. Under the Act, an applicant is allowed£50 worth of property, and£1 is deducted from the pension for every£10 in value over that ; but this old man has only£34, plus the pension from the Amalgamated Society of Engineers - 1st. Superannuation. Others of our members receiving it get the full old-age pension. Why should I be debarred after the Magistrate, who minutely inquired into the circumstances, recommended it? 2nd. Assistance from son consists in paying his mother for board and lodgings when in work. One son has done two months' work since Christmas. And yet the Treasurer can smile ! {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- I am not smiling at the honorable member. {: .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY: -- If the right honorable member smiled at me, he might smile as the people smile when he trots out in his gold lace and feathers - 3rd.£14 in the Savings Bank would soon disappear in case of sickness, accident, or other unforeseen circumstances. 4th. Furniture , £25, including beds, bedding, cooking utensils, crockery, and other necessary domestic articles, is, I submit, not too much for a large family. The Legislature, I presume, expected us to have a little more comfort than blackfellows. I am sure that, when the right honorable member was an explorer, he was kinder to the blackfellows than he is to-day to the" old-age pensioners - >I came to Australia in 1863 - to Victoria in 1865, where I reared a large family, all resident in Melbourne, hard working and respectable citizens, and many a hard and bitter struggle I have had to keep our chins above water. > >I ask not charity, but claim what I consider justice, and in the hope that the recommendation of the Magistrate, **Mr. Meehan,** may be acceded to. That letter was sent to the Department, and the reply was as follows : - >Under your present circumstances, you are not entitled to an increase of pension. When your son is married you should re-apply. Good God Almighty ! Where is the section in the Act which speaks about his son. getting married? 1 told the ^20-a week man who has charge of the present system of questions, that he would have more commiseration for these old people if he were filling up an application form for his own mother. From where do these infamous questions come? I am sorry that they came from New South Wales. {: .speaker-K5D} ##### Mr KING O'MALLEY:
DARWIN, TASMANIA · ALP -- The New South Wales authorities got them from Hell. {: .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY: -- Or from a worse place. What was the system which previously obtained in Victoria? A short time ago I asked the Treasurer - >Is it a fact that under the Victorian Old-age Pensions Act 1901-3 a Victorian citizen applying for an old-age pension would have no questions to fill in, but would merely have to sign his or her name in the presence of the required witnesses? To that question the Treasurer replied - >Under the Victorian Act the claimant was made to sign a declaration which covered 23 questions. Now let us look at the other side of the picture. I hold in my hand a list of thirty questions and of about fifteen sub-questions which an applicant for an old-age pension is required to answer. Sometimes when he finds two friends who have known him twenty-five years, those friends do not care to swear to the declarations which they are called upon to make because of the penalty of six months' imprisonment to which they would be liable in the event of their inadvertently making a false statement. The witnesses are required to answer no less than ninety questions. Yet the Treasurer proudly sits on the Ministerial bench and Can sometimes summon a smile {: .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr Atkinson: -- He is not -responsible for the framing of these questions. {: .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY: -- I have already said that I. blame the Fisher Government foi permitting a highly paid officer, who is in receipt of *£20* per week, to formulate these questions. But if it were an infamous act to permit these questions to be framed, it is more infamous for the Treasurer to countenance their continued application. There is no need for an Act of Parliament to effect the desired change. It can be brought about by an officer.. If the honorable member for Wilmot cannot join with me in my protest against these questions, I cannot say much for his conscience. {: .speaker-JMG} ##### Mr Atkinson: -- I am as much opposed to them as is the honorable member. {: .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY: -- Then why not endeavour to induce the Treasurer to rescind them ? Under the existing system an applicant for an old-age pension is required to fill in his mother's maiden name. Would he be deprived of his pension if he could not supply that name ?. In one case a father was called upon to fill in the names of- his fourteen children. Not content with that, he was asked - >What are the names, dates of birth, and places of birth, of all your, children? He was further required to say - >What are the names and addresses of your children now living? What has this information to do with the application of a man or woman of sixtyfive years of age, who is hungry and waiting for the pension? In another instance, an old fellow applied for, and was granted, a pension, but, in his ignorance, he did not know that, being a married man, his pension was subject to a deduction. On 8th September, the honorable member for Newcastle, on my behalf, asked the Treasurer - >In reference to old-age pensions - > > *Re* P. Boyham, who had been receiving 20s. for old-age pension per fortnight. Will the Minister explain how the Department expect the pensioner to live on the is. it paid him on 26th August, 1909? This afternoon, 1 asked - >With reference to questions asked 8lh September, *re* P. Boyham, will the Department explain, why they paid is. for a fortnight instead of reducing it gradually ; also, did they expect this old-age pensioner to exist for a fortnight on such sum of is. ? To which the Treasurer replied-- >An amount of 14s. 3d. was overpaid to the pensioner on account of a fraudulent statement made by him. No prosecution was insti- tuted, but the Department took the first opportunity of recovering the amount overpaid. I dare the Treasurer to prosecute him. If he does so, I will find a barrister to fight the case in any Court in which he may choose to initiate proceedings. *I* suppose that this *£20* per week officer, **Mr. Allen,** who has placed upon our fair escutcheon the wretched questions to which I have alluded, obtained them from New South Wales. The New South Wales Government, whilst more generous in' its payment of old-age pensions than was the Victorian Government, was less generous in the questions which it put to. applicants. If any honorable member desires to see a list of the questions put to applicants in New South Wales, I shall be glad to show him a copy of them. Under the Victorian Act, old-age pensioners experienced no trouble whatever. They had merely to sign the answers to questions which were read out to them by an officer. This man, Boyham, and his wife had to live on one shilling a day for a fortnight. What would the Treasurer say if he had to do that ? I wonder if he would fill out his waistcoat as well as he does to-day? Boyham was informed by the Department that he and his wife were only entitled to 15s. 3d. per fortnight from the 1st July. They had been receiving 20s. per fortnight. Therefore, it is said that they have been overpaid; and to adjust the overpayment they received only is; on the 26th of August, and all future payments are to be *at* the rate of 15s. 3d. per fortnight. This ^20 a week gentleman, who furnished me with an answer to a question on silver currency that a schoolboy would have laughed at, wishes this old couple to live on 15s. 3d. a fortnight. Take next the case of Edward J. Leonard. He was informed by the Oldage Pensions Office that his claim had been rejected on the ground that he was not considered eligible. The old man wanted to know why, but an answer was not given to him. Is he so degraded - this man fashioned in God's likeness - that a Government official cannot supply him with an answer to his question? I secured an answer on the floor of this House, but I insist that a citizen of this Commonwealth who applies for an old-age pension has a right to be told the reason why if his claim is rejected. I maintain that if a man has reached the age of sixty-five years, has lived in Australia twenty years, and is either native or British born, or a naturalized subject, he is entitled to draw the old-age pen sion without any further question being put to him. In a moment of national danger would the Treasurer ask a man who volunteered as a soldier what the maiden name of his mother or that of his maternal grandmother was? Not a bit of it. The Government would gladly use his services 'n 1 he defence of the country. Yet there are some, who are the Stigginses of our political life, who would put to applicants for old-age pensions questions such as would disgrace those regulating admission to a poor-house in England. I know what an English poor-house is. I spent two nights and a day in one on one occasion. I would sooner go to prison than to such an establishment again. I do not want to see our old-age pensions system degraded to that level. If the Treasurer has any sympathy for the aged people of this country, let him alter the present regulations and get back to the Victorian system, which was simpler and more effective. There are 142 questions which can be put to applicants for a pension. Some of them are questions which I am sure the Treasurer's colleagues would be ashamed of. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- Who framed these questions ? {: .speaker-KLM} ##### Dr MALONEY: -- I have said before that they were framed when the previous Government were in office. But, as my honorable friend will know, Ministers are very much . in the hands of the heads of Departments. The late Ministers were so pressed for time that they could not have gone through these questions. Had they done so I am sure that they would have rejected some of them. They are, I repeat, infamous questions, and I will maintain that statement on any platform in this country. Still more infamous is the conduct of a Government that will continue to enforce them after their nature is pointed out. I did first attack the late Government that allowed the questions to be framed. But I attack the present Treasurer now, because he has had control for three months, and has not raised a little finger to mend matters. I venture to say that the Treasurer, although he is a man of courage, dare not defend these questions before any public meeting in any part of Australia. I do not believe he is so strong, even in the electorate of Swan, that he would venture to defend them before an audience there. I do not wish to make this a party question, but I give the Treasurer a fair and square warning that unless the questions are modified I will use the forms of the House to attack them on every available occasion. The Treasurer himself is near the age at which he would be entitled to an old-age pension if he needed one; and he certainly would never draw from any source a larger pension than I would wish him to get. I make no attack on him personally, but I urge him to withdraw questions that are only fit to be asked by a cross-examining barrister. He certainly will do so if he has any feeling for his fellow old colonists. {: #debate-6-s17 .speaker-KJ8} ##### Mr HUTCHISON:
Hindmarsh -- At this late hour I do not propose to discuss a number of questions, but chiefly to call the attention of the Treasurer to the administration of the Old-age Pensions Act in South Australia. When we go to the Commissionerwe are most courteously treated, and when we have a good case it is looked into. But there is something which he has not the power to do. Although the Act came into force on 1 st July, a poor man of 102 years of age has not yet received a pension. Again a Crimean veteran of eighty -nine years of age, who, together with his poor old wife, is receiving rations from the Destitute Asylum, is not receiving a pension. No doubt it will be paid in due course, but I ask the Treasurer to think of the time which has elapsed since the Act came into force. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- Has the honorable member brought the cases under the notice of the Commissioner ? {: .speaker-KJ8} ##### Mr HUTCHISON: -- No, I have brought them, under the notice of the Deputy Commissioner, and of course he tells me that the old man will continue to draw his rations. Since the case was brought under my notice he has had an epileptic fit and another one may be fatal to him. In South Australia we have two gentlemen inquiring into the circumstances of the applicants. I do not know the nature of their remuneration. I do not think it is a fixed amount, but if they are paid at the rate of so much a. year it will be just as easy to get twenty as to get two to do the work. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- Will the honorable member give me on another occasion the particulars of the cases - the names and so on? {: .speaker-KJ8} ##### Mr HUTCHISON: -- I am stating the particulars. There are scores of cases which have not yet been dealt with. Seeing that the Act came into force in July, I submit that it is necessary to practice more expedition, especially in the case of a man 102 years ofage. {: .speaker-JSM} ##### Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP -- And the pensions are granted from the time of approval, not from the time of application. {: .speaker-KJ8} ##### Mr HUTCHISON: -- That makes the position a thousand times worse. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- If they applied as from the 1st July they would get the pension from that date. {: .speaker-KJ8} ##### Mr HUTCHISON: -- In Adelaide 1 was interviewed by an old man who is seventy-six years of age, and is living with a relative - a widow - who earns her living by cleaning Government offices. Lastyear he was given casual work to do, but this year he has not earned half-a-crown a week. He has been granted an oldage pension of 6s. 6d. a week. Why ? Because he is living with a poor old woman who rather than see . him go into the Destitute Asylum, provides a shelter, though she cannot afford to do so. That is valued at 4s. 6d. per week, and the amount is deducted from his pension. The particulars of that case will be sent to the Deputy Commissioner, but it is only typical of a number. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- There are sure to be a number of cases. There must be difficulties. {: .speaker-KJ8} ##### Mr HUTCHISON: -- There should be no difficulty about this case. The poor old widow is trying to assist an old relative who could not do a week's work if it were offered to him, and who has not earned half-a-crown a week during the year. He has only 5s. or 6s. in the Savings Bank, and owns no property, but because hehas a relative's roof over his head 4s. 6d. is deducted from his old-age pension. Surely we are not. going to allow the Act to be administered in that way {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- Why do these people hot make some representation ? They can appeal to the Commissioner. {: .speaker-KJ8} ##### Mr HUTCHISON: -- Why should it be necessary to make an appeal? {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- How can I help it? {: .speaker-KJ8} ##### Mr HUTCHISON: -- The honorable gentleman ought to instruct the Commissioner that if any person is not earning over 10s. a week and has no property he must get a pension of 10s. a week. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- I cannot direct the Commissioner. {: .speaker-KJ8} ##### Mr HUTCHISON: -- If I were in the honorable gentleman's place I would. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- The Commissioner was put in an independent position in order to be free from political influence. {: .speaker-KJ8} ##### Mr HUTCHISON: -- Does the honorable gentleman mean to say that he has nothing to do with the administration of the Act? {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- With the administration, but not with fixing the amount of a pension. {: .speaker-KJ8} ##### Mr HUTCHISON: -- The duty of the Treasurer is to see that the Act is proper I y administered. My complaint is that it is not being administered properly. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- I have no control over the Commissioner as regards the amount of a pension. {: .speaker-KJ8} ##### Mr HUTCHISON: -- The honorable gentleman has control over every officer in his Department. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- For this purpose he is not in my Department. {: .speaker-KJ8} ##### Mr HUTCHISON: -- In whose Department is he? {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- He is an independent Commissioner, appointed under the Act {: .speaker-KJ8} ##### Mr HUTCHISON: -- There ' is no Commonwealth officer who is not subject to the control of the Government. It is in the power of the Government to suspend any officer who is not doing his duty. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- I cannot interfere with the Commissioner's discretion in fixin a the amount of a pension. {: .speaker-KJ8} ##### Mr HUTCHISON: -- I do not think that it is the Commissioner's fault at all. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- What would happen if I interfered? {: .speaker-KJ8} ##### Mr HUTCHISON: -- I am not blaming the Treasurer. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- Does the honorable member think that the Act requires to be amended ? {: .speaker-KJ8} ##### Mr HUTCHISON: -- Yes, in manydirections. We tried to amend the Act, but honorable members on the other side would not consent. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- The honorable member would not make the granting of a pension a political matter? {: .speaker-KJ8} ##### Mr HUTCHISON: -- No; but the administration of the Act is a political matter. I't is not being administered as the House intended. Part II. deals with administration and section 5 reads - >There shall be a Commissioner of Pensions, who shall, subject to the control of the Minister, have the general administration of this Act. Is not that definite enough? The Treasurer does not seem to know that he has control over the Commissioner. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- - Read section 32, and then the honorable member will see what control I have. {: .speaker-KJ8} ##### Mr HUTCHISON: -- I ask the honorable gentleman to give me a reply to my inquiry about section 5. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- Read section 32, and then I will give a reply to the honorable member. {: #debate-6-s18 .speaker-KJ8} ##### Mr HUTCHISON:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP -- Section 32 reads- {: type="1" start="1"} 0. In respect of matters found by the Magistrate to be disproved, the claimant may in the time and in the manner prescribed, appeal to the Minister, who may cause an investigation thereof to be made by the Commissioner or a Deputy Commissioner", whose decision shall be final and conclusive and without appeal. I am now appealing to the Minister. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- And I say that the decision of the Commissioner or the Deputy Commissioner is "final and conclusive and without appeal." {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- Under the Act the Minister can only appeal to the Commissioner. {: .speaker-KJ8} ##### Mr HUTCHISON: -- That is riot my point. What I contend is that the Act is not being carried out, and an appeal is now being made to the Minister by honorable members. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- I have no control over the Commissioner. {: .speaker-KJ8} ##### Mr HUTCHISON: -- According to the section I have read the Treasurer has. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- Yes, as to the administration of the Act, but not as to fixing the amount of a pension. {: .speaker-KJ8} ##### Mr HUTCHISON: -- It is the administration of the Act to which I am referring. The honorable member has power to tell the Commissioner to-morrow that if two magistrates are not sufficient to deal with the cases he must see that ten are employed. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- Yes, that is right. {: .speaker-KJ8} ##### Mr HUTCHISON: -- That is all that I want the honorable member to do. It is simply shameful that a man eighty-nine years old and another 102 years old should not have received old-age pensions. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- If the honorable member will give me the names and addresses I shall inquire into the cases personally. {: .speaker-KJ8} ##### Mr HUTCHISON: -- I shall see that the Commissioner is furnished with the information. Although the appeal was made to me the claimants are not in my constituency. We ought to have a more generous administration of the Act. I shall take good care to see that all cases of hardship are brought before the Commissioner. I know that I shall be courteously received, and that when a good case is made out it will be attended to. There is a matter to which I want to draw the attention of the Minister of Defence. In the Imperial Navy all seamen up to and including petty officers have a badge for long service and good conduct. Its possession carries extra pay and an increase of pension. No pension is allowed to our naval forces, but extra pay is given. I ask the Minister to note that extra pay and badges are not allowed to petty officers, nor yet to stewards, nor I believe to others. The privilege applies only to seamen, leading seamen and stokers. Would it not be fair to put the others on the same footing as those in the Imperial Navy, more especially as they are not entitled to pensions? There is no reason why it should not be done ; indeed, the present arrangement must be the result of an oversight. The new arrangement would apply only to deserving men. {: #debate-6-s19 .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER:
Wide Bay .- It is evident that, notwithstanding the exertions of the Ministers of this Fusion Government, there are still a few grievances. I wish to know from the Treasurer if he has yet received a reply from the Colonial Office regarding the coinage ? {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- No; though I have despatched a reminder on the subject. 1 shall communicate to the House any information that I may receive. {: #debate-6-s20 .speaker-K5D} ##### Mr KING O'MALLEY:
Darwin -- I hope that the PostmasterGeneral will provide for the establishment of wireless telegraphic communication with King and Flinders Islands, where there is a population of nearly 1,000 persons, most of whom were originally Victorians. At present, they have to depend on a small steamer called the *Yambacoona.* On one occasion, I left Devonport in her on Tuesday night, and did not reach Currie Harbor until the following Saturday at1 o'clock, so that, obviously, the inhabitants of King Island are at a great disadvantage. I should like the honorable gentleman to pay attention also to the wants of Forrest, an important place in Tasmania. A great many little things might be done for the convenience of the Tasmanian people. I am grateful to the PostmasterGeneral, who, I know, is doing his best to afford facilities to people settled in isolated districts. I trust the honorable gentleman will do what he can to see that the steamer *Oonah,* when returning from Burnie, will call in at Stanley. {: .speaker-KYJ} ##### Sir John Quick: -- I have already noted the honorable member's suggestion. {: .speaker-K5D} ##### Mr KING O'MALLEY: -- I am obliged to the honorable gentleman. It would be a great convenience to people who are now isolated to be able to send produce to Melbourne, and the boat calling on the Sunday morning would greatly facilitate their operations. {: #debate-6-s21 .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr KELLY:
Wentworth .- The question put by the Leader of the Opposition prompts me to offer a suggestion to the Treasurer in connexion with the coinage. It is that a certain letter written to the Minister of Defence might be laid on the table of the House. The letter was from a schoolboy, and drew attention to the fact that the characteristics of the emu and kangaroo are hardly the courageous, determined characteristics of the Australian people, nor is the cranial cavity of Australian birds of sufficient capacity to compass the intelligence of the average of the Australian people. Inasmuch as the characteristics of these birds are not symbolical of the great people we represent,, it would perhaps be better to secure some design for our coinage that would indicate more brains, and less of their other characteristics. I ask the Minister of Defence to laythe letter he has received on the table. I am sure it would be instructive to honorable members. Mr.J. H. CATTS (Cook) [11.9]- I have been waiting all day for an opportunity to refer tosome grievances in connexion with the Post and Telegraph Department, but as there appears to be a general desire that we should not sit late, and that theSupply Bill should be passed to-night I shall not nowoccupy the time of honorable members in ventilating those grievances. I shall send a note of them to the Postmaster-General, and will ask him to give me a reply at his earliest convenience. Question resolved in the affirmative. Resolution reported. Standing Orders suspended, and report adopted. Resolutions of Ways and Means covering Resolution of Supply adopted. *Ordered -* >That' **Sir John** Forrest and **Mr. Glynn** do prepare and bring in a Bill to carry out the foregoing resolution. Bill presentedby **Sir John** Forrest, and passed through all its stages. House adjourned at 11. 15 p.m.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 14 September 1909, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1909/19090914_reps_3_51/>.

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House of Representatives14 September 1909

QUESTION

POSTMASTER-GENERAL’S’ DEPARTMENT

Mr KELLY:WENTWORTH, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr DEAKIN:Prime Minister · BALLAARAT, VICTORIA · Protectionist

Dr LIDDELL:HUNTER, NEW SOUTH WALES

Sir JOHN QUICK:Postmaster-General · BENDIGO, VICTORIA · Protectionist

Mr BAMFORD:HERBERT, QUEENSLAND

Sir JOHN QUICK:

Mr FOWLER:PERTH, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Sir JOHN QUICK:

Mr ARCHER:for Mr. Hedges

Sir JOHN QUICK:

QUESTION

DEFENCE

Mr ROBERTS:ADELAIDE, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr JOSEPH COOK:PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr ROBERTS:

Mr JOSEPH COOK:PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr ROBERTS:

Mr JOSEPH COOK:PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr CHANTER:RIVERINA, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr JOSEPH COOK:PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr ROBERTS:

Mr JOSEPH COOK:PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Dr WILSON:for Mr. Crouch

Mr JOSEPH COOK:PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr ARCHER:for Mr. Hedges

Mr FULLER:Minister for Home Affairs · ILLAWARRA, NEW SOUTH WALES · Free Trade

LEAVE OF ABSENCE

QUESTION

CIVIL SERVANTS AND STRIKERS

Mr TUDOR:YARRA, VICTORIA

Mr FULLER:Free Trade

PAPER

QUESTION

OLD-AGE PENSIONS

Mr WATKINS:NEWCASTLE, NEW SOUTH WALES

Sir JOHN FORREST:Treasurer · SWAN, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · Protectionist

Mr TUDOR:for Dr. Maloney

Sir JOHN FORREST:

SUPPLY BILL (No. 2)

Sir JOHN FORREST:Treasurer · Swan · Protectionist

Mr FISHER:Wide Bay

Sir John Forrest:

Mr FISHER:

Sir John Forrest:

Mr FISHER:

Mr JOSEPH COOK:PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr FISHER:

Mr HUME COOK:BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

Mr FISHER:

Mr JOSEPH COOK:PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr FISHER:

Mr JOSEPH COOK:PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr FISHER:

Mr JOSEPH COOK:PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr FISHER:

Mr JOSEPH COOK:PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr FISHER:

Sir John Forrest:

Mr FISHER:

Sir John Forrest:

Mr FISHER:

Sir John Forrest:

Mr FISHER:

Mr Roberts:

Mr FISHER:

Sir John Forrest:

Mr FISHER:

Mr Deakin:

Mr FISHER:

Mr Deakin:

Mr Roberts:

Mr FISHER:

Dr Liddell:

Mr FISHER:

Sir John Forrest:

Mr FISHER:

Mr Deakin:

House of Representatives
14 September 1909

Mr KELLY:
WENTWORTH, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr DEAKIN:
Prime Minister · BALLAARAT, VICTORIA · Protectionist

Dr LIDDELL:
HUNTER, NEW SOUTH WALES

Sir JOHN QUICK:
Postmaster-General · BENDIGO, VICTORIA · Protectionist

Mr BAMFORD:
HERBERT, QUEENSLAND

Mr FOWLER:
PERTH, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr ARCHER:
for Mr. Hedges

Mr ROBERTS:
ADELAIDE, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr CHANTER:
RIVERINA, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Dr WILSON:
for Mr. Crouch

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr ARCHER:
for Mr. Hedges

Mr FULLER:
Minister for Home Affairs · ILLAWARRA, NEW SOUTH WALES · Free Trade

Mr TUDOR:
YARRA, VICTORIA

Mr FULLER:
Free Trade

Mr WATKINS:
NEWCASTLE, NEW SOUTH WALES

Sir JOHN FORREST:
Treasurer · SWAN, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · Protectionist

Mr TUDOR:
for Dr. Maloney

Sir JOHN FORREST:
Treasurer · Swan · Protectionist

Mr FISHER:
Wide Bay

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr HUGHES:
West Sydney

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr MAUGER:
Maribyrnong