House of Representatives
3 December 1908

3^rd Parliament · 3^rd Session

QUESTION
- DUTY ON TISSUE PAPER
QUESTION
- MONO-RAIL SYSTEM
QUESTION
- DEFENCE STORES BRANCH
QUESTION
- SELECT COMMITTEE ON STRIPPER HARVESTERS AND DRILLS
BUNBURY RIFLE RANGE
QUESTION
- IMMIGRATION RESTRICTION
QUESTION
- QUEENSLAND-SOUTH AUSTRALIAN TELEGRAPH CONNEXION
QUESTION
- AUSTRALIA, NEW ZEALAND, AND PACIFIC ISLANDS : TELEGRAPH CONNEXION
QUESTION
- PEARL AND BECHE DE MER FISHERIES
QUESTION
- POST AND TELEGRAPH DEPARTMENT
QUESTION
- COINAGE OF SILVER
JOINT LIBRARY COMMITTEE
IMMIGRATION RESTRICTION BILL
QUESTION
- ESTIMATES
QUESTION
- LAND HUNGER
MANUFACTURES ENCOURAGEMENT BILL

Mr. Speaker took the chair at 2.30 p.m., and read prayers.

page 2626

QUESTION

DUTY ON TISSUE PAPER

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister · WIDE BAY, QUEENSLAND · ALP

– The Government has given attention to the matter, and the powers necessary to enable the Committee to obtain the evidence which Parliament has instructed it to obtain will be furnished, either by enlarging its privileges, or by converting it into a Royal Commission.

page 2627

BUNBURY RIFLE RANGE

Sir JOHN FORREST:
SWAN, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

– Can the Minister of Home Affairs expedite the work on the rifle range at Bunbury, for which £350 was voted in the Appropriation (Works and Buildings) Act recently passed. Both the late Minister of Defence and the late Minister of Home Affairs promised that this should be done; but I have been informed by a telegram, which I sent on to the present Minister, that no action has yet been taken.

Mr MAHON:
Minister for Home Affairs · COOLGARDIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP

– I have not seen the telegram ; but shall make inquiries, to ascertain the cause of the delay.

Sir John Forrest:

– I sent the telegram some days ago.

page 2627

QUESTION

IMMIGRATION RESTRICTION

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA

– Two or three weeks ago I read a letter which I had received from a Britisher whose father and grandfather were Britishers, and whose mother was born in Jamaica, complaining that he was being kept on board the German mail steamer Bremen. According to Truth, this man is a good unionist, a competent workman, an engineer, and a Freemason. As this man has British blood through his father and grandfather, I desire to ask the Minister that he may be permitted to stay in the Commonwealth.

Mr BATCHELOR:
ALP

– The application has already been granted.

page 2627

QUESTION

QUEENSLAND-SOUTH AUSTRALIAN TELEGRAPH CONNEXION

Mr SINCLAIR:
MORETON, QUEENSLAND

– I understand that, prior to Federation, there were negotiations between the Governments of South Australia and Queensland with a view to connecting Hergott Springs with Boulia, via Birdsville, by telegraph. As the Sydney to Brisbane telegraph line is very much congested, and a line such as I have mentioned would relieve the pressure of work on it considerably, will the PostmasterGeneral have inquiry made as to the possibility of connecting those two townships?

Mr THOMAS:
Postmaster-General · BARRIER, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I shall be glad to have a report made on the question.

page 2628

QUESTION

AUSTRALIA, NEW ZEALAND, AND PACIFIC ISLANDS : TELEGRAPH CONNEXION

Mr McDOUGALL:
WANNON, VICTORIA

– Has the attention of the Prime Minister been called to the following published statement: -

An important scheme for linking Australia and New Zealand with many of the Pacific

Islands has received the preliminary approval of the Commonwealth Prime Minister. . . .

The scheme is the child of an English Syn dicate, the Pacific Islands Radio Telegraph Company, whose representative, Mr. Hamilton, had several interviews with Mr. Deakin when he was in Melbourne. The plan’s of the Syndicate are comprehensive. … So sanguine are the promoters of success, that they propose to have the installations made early in January, 1909.

Is the Commonwealth backing up schemes promoted by (British syndicates with funds; and, if so, to what extent? Further, will the Prime Minister lay the papers in connexion with the matter upon the table of the House?

Mr FISHER:
ALP

– No such papers have come before me, nor do I know of any such official promise. What the honorable member states may be correct, and I shall be glad to look at the papers in order to ascertain the facts. I do’ not think the Commonwealth will support any syndicate scheme when there are so many opportunities of entering into national or international undertakings.

page 2628

QUESTION

PEARL AND BECHE DE MER FISHERIES

Mr BAMFORD:

asked the Minister of External Affairs, upon notice -

Whether the Government has arrived at any decision concerning the granting of permits for the introduction of divers and tenders for the pearl fishing industry. If so, will the Minister inform the House as to what action is being taken?
Can the Minister say whether or not it was contemplated, when permits have been granted for the indenting of divers and tenders as aforesaid, to allow the men thus introduced to engage in the beche de mer fishery, which is an industry quite distinct from the pearl fishing?
If it was not so intended, what, if any, action will be taken to prevent men indented as divers and tenders drifting into the beche de mer fishing business?

Mr BATCHELOR:
ALP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

On the receipt of the report of the Queensland Royal Commission which inquired into the pearling industry, the States interested, Queensland, Western Australia, and South Australia, were communicated with in order to learn what steps they proposed taking to carry out the recommendations of the Commission which had for their object the substitution of white for coloured divers, and which depended “on State rather than Commonwealth action. No replies have been received, but in the meantime the existing practice has received my attention, and rules have been laid down which, while permitting the continuance of the industry on existing lines, impose additional safeguards against any increase of the number of aliens engaged, and against any diversion of indented aliens to other industries than pearling.
It was not contemplated that indented aliens should be allowed to engage in the beche de mer industry, and the bond given by the employers refers only to vessels engaged in pearl-fishing.
Inquiries will at once be made to ascertain how far the aliens allowed to be introduced for pearling have drifted into the beche de mer industry with a view to putting a stop to the practice.

page 2628

QUESTION

POST AND TELEGRAPH DEPARTMENT

Bowral Telephone Exchange - Sydney- wollongong trunk telephone–

Corowa Post Office Clock - Bellambi Telephone Service - Wollongong Post Office - Nullagong to tulloweena mail service. Mr. FULLER asked the PostmasterGeneral, upon notice -

Is it a fact that long since more than the number of subscribers warranting the establishment of a Telephone Exchange at Bowral gave in their names to the Department?
Is it also a fact that subscriptions towards the expense and poles for the wires in the surrounding districts have been promised to the Department by the residents?
If so, what is the reason why this work has not been carried out?
Will he, in justice to the residents, have this matter dealt with as speedily as possible?

Mr THOMAS:
ALP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

Yes.
I am not aware of the fact but am having inquiries made.
The work in this and the other cases has not been carried out owing to want of funds.
When funds are available action will be taken as speedily as possible.

Mr FULLER:
ILLAWARRA, NEW SOUTH WALES

asked the Postmas ter - General, upon notice -

Is it a fact that tenders were accepted for the material necessary for construction of trunk telephone line, Sydney to Wollongong, in the monrh of July last?
Is it a fact that instructions were issued by the late Postmaster-General to his responsible officers to at once proceed with the construction of this telephone line?
Will the Minister state the reasons why there has been such a long delay in carrying out this important work?
In view of the inconvenience which is being experienced in the large industrial centre which this telephone line will serve, will he have the work proceeded with immediately ?

Mr THOMAS:

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

Yes.
Yes.
It was found that sufficient funds were not available for carrying out the work.
When circumstances permit the work will be proceeded with immediately.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

asked the

Postmaster-General, upon notice -

Has his attention been called to the following paragraph in the Corowa Free Press of the 27th November last : - “ We hear on pood authority that specifications for the long talked of Post Office turret clock at the Corowa Post Office have been prepared ? “
Can he say whether the cost of installing this clock is to be provided by the Commonwealth Government; and, if so, will he see that other country towns receive like consideration?

Mr THOMAS:

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

My attention had not previously been called to the paragraph referred to.
It is not proposed that the cost of installing a turret clock at Corowa shall be borne by the Commonwealth Government.

Mr FULLER:

asked the PostmasterGeneral, upon notice -

Is it a fact that months ago application was made to the Deputy Postmaster-General, Sydney, to have a telephone put on to the works and manager’s residence of the Broken Hill Proprietary Company Limited, Bellambi, New South Wales?
Is there any tangible reason why this connexion should not be made?
If not, will he issue instructions for it to be done immediately?

Mr THOMAS:

– Inquiry is being made, and the desired information will be furnished as early as possible.

Mr FULLER:

asked the PostmasterGeneral, upon notice -

Is it a fact that the amount of business transacted at the Post Office, Wollongong, entitles that office to be graded higher than at present ?
If so, will he take the necessary steps to have it put on the proper grade?

Mr THOMAS:

– The Public Service Commissioner furnishes the following answers to the honorable member’s questions : -

The amount of business transacted at the Wollongong Post Office does not entitle it to a higher classification than that assigned to it in the recent regrading of post offices.
See answer to No. 1.

Mr FULLER:

asked the PostmasterGeneral, upon notice -

Is it a fact that after a careful Departmental inquiry approval was given months ago to the establishment of a mail service, Nullagong to Tulloweena?
If so, what is the reason why the service has not been established?
Will he, in justice to the people in these outlying districts, have the matter proceeded with as expeditiously as possible?

Mr THOMAS:

– Inquiries are being made, and the desired information will be furnished as early as possible.

page 2629

QUESTION

COINAGE OF SILVER

Dr MALONEY:

asked the Treasurer, upon notice -

What the profit would be on the minting of £1,000,000 of Australian silver at the price quoted in the Age of 2nd December, viz., 1s. 10 5-16d. per standard ounce?
What would be the cost of minting same at the usual rate of 3 per cent. ?
What would be the net profit on such purchase after deducting such stated costor any other contingent expense?

Mr FISHER:
ALP

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

The gross profit on coining £1,000,000 of silver bullion would be £1,957,983.
£88,739.

3.£1,354,555, made up as follows : -

Gross profit, £1,957,983. Deduct estimated charges (assuming that the coins would be made by the Royal Mint in London) - Coinage (3 per cent on face value of£2,957,983), £88,739; freight and other expenses (1.4 per cent on face value), £41,412 ; rehabilitation in perpetuity (16 per cent on face value), £473,277- £603,428 ; nett profit (being 45.79 per cent. on face value), £1,354,555.

page 2629

JOINT LIBRARY COMMITTEE

Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the table the report of the Joint Library Committee.

page 2629

IMMIGRATION RESTRICTION BILL

Motion (by Mr. Batchelor) agreed to -

That leave be given to bring in a Bill for an Act to amend the Immigration Restriction Acts 1901-5.

page 2630

QUESTION

Colonel Foxton. - What would the people do there?

Mr SAMPSON:

– They would -enter into different classes of agriculture.

Mr SAMPSON:

– I am not talking in the interests of any particular State, but in the interests of Australia; and I think we ought to have some scheme for the locking of the rivers. To return to the question of immigration, I find that, as far back as September, 1905, Mr. Coghlan, the eminent statistician, who is now, I understand. Agent-General for New South Wales, issued an able and comprehensive report, in which he showed that the disadvantageous position of Australia was partly due to distance from the Old World, and partly to ignorance of our resources, and misrepresentation by the London press. That ignorance and misrepresentation, Mr. Coghlan said, it was impossible to combat under existing conditions, and he contrasted the loyalty of the Canadian representatives in London with the disloyalty of some of those from Australia, who ought to have had more to say for the country that had served them so well. The pre-eminent position of Canada, Mr. Coghlan pointed out, was largely due to the fact that there is one great central power in the person of the High Commissioner as regards the matter of advertising the Dominion.

Under the Canadian system, the High Commissioner is the directing force. He has received the hearty support of the provinces, which have contributed large sums for the advertising of their resources, and the co-operation of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company. Being looked upon as the representative of the Dominion, he has not aroused provincial jealousies, and, as the result, hundreds of thousands of valuable immigrants have gone to Canada.

Mr Mathews:

– It is a pity that that immigration was overdone.

Mr SAMPSON:

– That has been sufficiently explained by Lord Strathcona, who says that those unable to find work have been mostly persons sent out by charitable institutions, unfitted to cope with the conditions which prevail. Mr. Coghlan also pointed out that the Canadian exhibits always make a respectable show at fairs and exhibitions in London and large provincial centres, because they are classed together as Canadian exhibits, and not as the separate exhibits of the various Canadian provinces.

Mr.Deakin. - At the Franco-British Exhibition, this year, Canada had one set of exhibits, while Australia was represented by the separate exhibits of the various States.

Mr SAMPSON:

- Mr. Coghlan has stated, as the result of his observation at Home, and his knowledge of our resources, that if Australian exhibits were shown under one authority, they would make a finer display than those of any other part of the world. It has been said that the success of our immigration movement will depend upon the action that the States take in providing land for settlers. There is a great deal in that contention. We should be in a position to make known the fact that work and land will be found for those who come here. Land occupation is a matter which is controlled by the Governments of the States ; but we might have made more effort to induce them to fall into line with us, and could have done a good deal by appointinga Royal Commissioner, and providing alt machinery necessary for the proper advertisement of Australian resources.

Mr Deakin:

– The late Government undertook to advertise, free of cost to the States, whatever land they would place at our disposal, and to ask Parliament to consider means for bringing immigrants here.

Mr Mathews:

– But the States would not do anything.

– Honorable members opposite have not the courage to move a reduction of the vote.

Mr SAMPSON:

– The insular, conservative policy of the Labour Party in respect to immigration will, if followed for a few years more, cause that party to disappear. The late Prime Minister, speaking in this Chamber in March last, said that the advertisement of Australia at Home was a great and ambitious enterprise, which, though costly, must be undertaken, unless we as a nation were to cease to be. He also said that next year lie would lay a scheme before Parliament, and hinted that if the Premiers of the States failed to come to an agreement with him, it might be necessary to appeal to the people for an amendment of the Constitution to enable us to give effect to a comprehensive immigration policy. What has been done? Our population between 1901 and 1905 increased by only 278,000 persons. As our progress is only at a snail’s pace, we must not be surprised if some day the nations who occupy territory close to our borders claim lands which we have proved ourselves incapable of developing. I hope that the Government will take notice of what is said on the subject, that a scheme will be. inaugurated’ for future development, and that the question of taking over the Northern Territory will be brought before the House for discussion at an early date. I hope the Minister will also take into consideration the question of placing before Parliament a full and comprehensive report as to the practicability of locking our great inland streams, as we are entitled to do by the Constitution, as an evidence that we desire to do our best to bring the land there under cultivation if the States themselves are paltering with the problem and failing to carry out their duty in that respect. I trust the Minister will give us information regarding the contribution towards the funds of the Antarctic expedition under Lieutenant Shackleton.

Mr Batchelor:

– That money has been spent. There is no such item this year.

Mr SAMPSON:

– I know that the money has been spent, but will the Minister give us any later information respecting it that is available?

Mr MATHEWS:
Melbourne Ports

– In the item “ Advertising resources of the Commonwealth, £20,000 “ we have an instance of -

’ Will you walk into my parlour?” said the spider to the fly.

If any item should be wiped out, this is it. Last year £20,000 was voted for the purpose and only- a small portion was spent. We are assured that this year the Government will not be able to expend much more. The reason is that the Commonwealth Government is not really able to offer to the people of the Old World any share in the resources of the Commonwealth. This Parliament doe§ not control a single acre on which to place one immigrant. It has to depend on the States to carry any liberal land policy into effect and to place people upon the land. The evidence shows that it is useless to bring people out here not only in the numbers that we want, but even in the numbers that are offering. The exPrime Minister made strong efforts to in duce the Premiers of the States to come te* some arrangement by which the Commonwealth Government could assist the StatesGovernments to bring desirable people toAustralia, and not to land people here in* order still further to stagnate the labour markets in the cities. The honorable gentleman endeavoured to induce the StatesGovernments to open up ‘the land so that suitable immigrants could be settled on it. I admit that some of the States have tried’ to a certain extent to do so, but Victoria, if it made any attempt at all, did it to sosmall a degree that the effort was a lamentable failure. I believe Queensland hasbeen fairly successful in that direction, but there are more people in England anc? Scotland offering to come to Australia than Queensland could take.

Colonel Foxton. - Not more than wecould take, but more than the honorablemember’s party will allow to come.

Mr Watson:

– No one has been stopped’ from coming. The “ stinking fish “ party is lying about Australia all the time.

Mr MATHEWS:

– The emigrationagencies in the Old Country are delusions and snares to the unfortunate people wholisten to them. That is so, even in regard to the agencies for the State of Queensland. I do not say that we have not thecountry to place the people upon, becausewe have it, if it were available. It is thefact that it is not available that I am grumbling at. It is a waste of money for the Commonwealth to take action in the direction of advertising the resources of Australia when it has not the land to offer and cannot get the co-operation of theStates. The States are willing to allowthe Commonwealth to spend money in advertising our resources if those resourcesare advertised in the particular way that the States want. But if the true state of affairs were placed before the people at Home, every State would raise the cry that, the Commonwealth was interfering in something with which it had no concern. Upto the present, practically every State hastold us that it does not want our interference. As matters stand, it is a piece of impudence on our part to tell the people of the Old Country that there are opportunities for them here when we have no opportunities to offer to them. If the Stateswould co-operate with the Commonwealth. Government in placing the true state of affairs before the people of the Old Country, instead of lying statements being circulated, the Commonwealth Government, hav- ing the supervision of the matter, and being able to speak on behalf of Australia, would insist on the advertisements conforming to the truth. But that is exactly what the immigration agents in the Old Country do not want. I desire to quote an extract from a well-written article from the special correspondent of the Sydney Daily Telegraph, published on Tuesday last. That is not a Labour paper, but a well-known Tory journal, which endeavours to rule the political destinies of New South Wales. The article, which is dated from London on 30th October Last, is as follows -

Briefly the position is that thousands of emigrants of the very best types are offering themselves to Australia, and Australia, as represented by its State agencies in London, does not want them. This year between 6,000 and 7,000 emigrants will be assisted by the various State Governments to proceed to the Commonwealth. This number could have been increased to 20,000 without any more expense in advertising, and without anyfalling off in the quality of the people sent. For every assisted passage there are dozens of applicants. When these are sorted out there are from three to six eligibles for every assisted passage.

Yet the Commonwealth Parliament is being asked to spend £20,000 for this purpose when thousands of desirable immigrants are already clamouring to come to Australia, and large numbers are being deluded to come here under State supervision. That statement can be proved, as I have had to bring before the House three cases of men who were lied to, and who came here thinking that they could obtain land. Two of them were mechanics, and the other an agriculturist. The article continues -

The Agent-General’s office says to them in effect, “ If you are a good, steady man, you will get permanent work at a good wage. If you prove a loafer, you will promptly get the sack, and we will not be responsible for what becomes of you. Everything depends upon yourself.”

That is a base calumny upon the men who are now out of work in Australia. In every State there are hundreds and thousands clamouring for work and unable to get it.

Mr HANS IRVINE:
GRAMPIANS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910

– It is their own fault.

Mr MATHEWS:

– I am not surprised at the statement of the honorable member, in view of the district that he represents; but I can assure him that I know hundreds of honest working men in Melbourne and suburbs who are willing to take work and cannot get it.

Mr HANS IRVINE:
GRAMPIANS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910

– They will not leave the towns.

Mr MATHEWS:

– Is it of any use to take a bricklayer, a carpenter, ironmoulder, tailor, butcher, or shoemaker from Melbourne, and place him on land at £42 an acre? Where is he to get the money to pay for it ? Or would the honorable member send him to the grass-tree lands of Victoria, at 10s. an acre, from which he could not get any return for some years? Yet’ we are told that these men are loafers, and that that is why they get the sack. Such a statement is unfair. I know that honorable members opposite do not believe it, even when they say it. They are only making the statement for party purposes. The writer adds -

Scotland is proving the best hunting ground, and the four agents across the border are making good money.

Those are the agents who are deluding people to come here under false pretences.

Mr McDougall:

– Whose agents are they?

Mr MATHEWS:

Mr GLYNN:

– No; but I have heard attempts made in this House to justify an alleged design on the part of Japan - a design which probably does not exist - to consider the possibility of settling Australia for us. The honorable member for Wimmera referred to that point this afternoon, and urged that, owing to the lack of expedition displayed by us in developing our own resources, other nations might feel justified in turning their attention to settlement on our shores, and to forcibly finding an outlet for their population here. I would remind honorable members that fifty years ago, England was not very thickly populated, and that going back another 100 years we find that it was then by comparison but sparsely populated. When Froude wrote one of his chapters extolling the prosperity of the English beef-fed labourer, the population of the agricultural districts of England comprised only a few millions. Still, no one would say that the measure of agricultural development in England had then been reached. I therefore think that we ought not to be pessimistic or depressed by the fact that in what is practically the first fifty years of our real development our population has not exceeded 4,000,000. We have marvellous powers of recuperation. Between 1902 and 1904 we had practically drought years, and although our exports and imports then fell away to a value of something like £90,000,000 per annum, they have practically increased 50 per cent, within the last two or three years. I think that our imports and’ exports last year represented a value of £130,000,000 - a volume of business indicative of a prosperity which had not been previously reached, and which has not been exceeded by Canada.

Sir William Lyne:

– Nor by any other country with a like population.

Mr GLYNN:

– The prosperity of Canada has been vaunted to the disadvantage of Australia, but it is not the theatrical advertising to which Canada has resorted that has caused a stream of immigration to turn towards her shores. Immigration to Canada has really been due to the fact that the western portion of that country has during the last five years been thrown open for settlement. Mr. Coghlan, in the report to which the honorable member for Wimmera has referred, points out that during the three years ending, I think, in 1907, no less than 13,000,000 acres in Canada were taken up by over 80,000 settlers or actually more than the whole settlement of a similar class in Australia at that date. It is the opening up of these lands that has turned the tide of immigration towards Canada. That emigration has !not necessarily been from the Old Country. Many thousands have gone there from the United States, finding that the conditions of settlement are far more tempting than are those in the adjoining States of the great Union. There is another reason why immigrants are perhaps not coming to our shores as freely as we would desire. A good deal has been said about our isolated position. It is said that we are practically on the outskirts of that portion of the world in which the prowess of the western nations would give us immunity from attack, and if such statements are repeated again and again, they may affect emigration to Australia. Then, again, the class of men who would provide emigrants to Australia does not exist in England as it did thirty or forty years ago. The last census returns show that out of a total population of 42,000,000, only about 9,000,000 were residing outside the cities of England. That population of 9,000,000 provides the men of the class that we desire as immigrants, and fifty or sixty years ago it was, proportionately, nearly double that number. The parents of children who will now emigrate to Australia are to be found in the cities of the Old Country. They constitute a class that is gradually becoming effete ; a class that we do not want here.

– No matter what a man’s capacity may be, he is not worth much to the country unless he is in a position to apply his labour productively. If the mere totting up of heads indicated prosperity, then China, who has been asleep for 2,000 years, ought to be one of the richest countries, and England, with a population of only 42,000,000, but with a trade running into 1,100 millions of pounds, ought to be one of the poorest. As a matter of fact, we know that England has applied intelligence, capital, and, of course, labour as a first condition, with excellent results. I do not like to take a depressing view of the effect of immigration. I merely urge that we should not rely too much on that policy, and pass such a vote as might lead us to adopt the theatrical methods of Canada. At the same time, we are somewhat behind the Old Country in the instrumentalities of industrial development. I occasionally read the report of what is done in Great Britain and Ireland ; and I find that even Ireland, which has been somewhat backward of recent years, is far in advance of Australia in voluntary cooperation in the development of local production and of outside markets. There is State aid in Ireland in these directions, and that country is, as I indicate, far before us in the way of agricultural colleges, lectureships, and the teaching of the people, not

Only through the Government, but through voluntary associations. I hope that the new Ministry, with the opportunity they will have during the recess - if they reach it - will look into this question, and see whether this £20,000 cannot be applied with better results than have obtained in the past. A great deal could be done by placing the real position of Australia before the British public, and imbuing them with the confidence that inspires us as public men. Our political institutions ought to be dwelt on, because they are in comparatively excellent working as contrasted with similar institutions in other countries. Attention might also be directed to the peculiarities of our climate, our marvellous powers of recuperation, and the virility which inspires our youth, who look rather to the future than to the past. Even through an exalted dignitary like the High Commissioner, these facts could be with advantage placed before the British public, and would have much more force than if communicated by the somewhat mercenary mouths of theatrical paid agents.

Mr CARR:
Macquarie

– I intend to oppose this vote of £20,000 for advertising the resources of Australia unless the Government give some assurance that they will make available to immigrants those resources. While I agree with the honorable member for Angas as to the possibilities of Australia, I disagree with him in his view of immigration. We can absorb millions quite as rapidly as Canada has done; but, in so far as this ill-advised and ill-regulated immigration has been conducted in the various States, it has resulted simply in the flooding of the labour market. It has come under my own personal notice that immigrants have been encouraged to come here for whom no openings are presented when they arrive. At the present time, I am endeavouring to secure for an able and fairly well educated man, who was induced to come to New South Wales by an irresponsible immigration agent, a position on the tramways in South Australia. He is a skilled tramway driver, and is not qualified to immediately go on the land ; and yet such men are brought out indiscriminately without due regard for the occupations for which they are fitted. Then in a town in my own electorate an immigrant labourer sued his employer for six weeks’ wages at 10s. a week ; and it appeared that the immigrant, who had tramped up country looking for work, had been engaged at 2s. a week. The magistrate gave a verdict in favour of the employer, although the plaintiff was an able-bodied English farm labourer. Such a case is an outrage on the decency of this community, and I am strongly opposed to the continuance of indiscriminate immigration. I cannot understand the attitude of the late Government, seeing that the control of immigration rests entirely with the Commonwealth. The power seems to have been relegated to the States, which, apparently, are dominated by no desire but to furnish a certain class of the community with cheap labour. Recently, I saw a large printed placard from England, headed, “Wanted, 4,000 farm hands for Australia.” Such an announcement is a reflection on the Central Government, because, if such a number of farm hands were to come, they would starve before the crops were ready, even if then there was a demand for them. Unless the Government will show that, by the imposition of a heavy progressive land tax they propose to open up the lands - or else stipulate that no one who has not £500 shall be acceptable, or if they do not, out of Government funds, finance immigrants who come, I must oppose any further expenditure on immigration.

Colonel FOXTON (Brisbane) [4.5]. - I am in favour of advertising Australia in the Old Country, and I am somewhat surprised at the two speeches we have heard from honorable members behind the Government. This vote has been denounced, in unmeasured terms, but none of thesehonorable members concluded his remarksby moving a reduction.

Mr Page:

– Surely the honorable member does not think we are sparrows to becaught with chaff?

Colonel FOXTON.- The Minister last night told us that it would be impossibleto spend perhaps more than £10,000 of this vote ; and I should have thought thatthe two honorable members who havevociferously denounced the item, would have had the courage of their opinions. However, I shall relieve them of the odium of submitting such a proposal, and give them an opportunity of demonstrating their consistency, by moving -

That the item, “ Advertising resources of Commonwealth, ^20,000, “ be reduced by £10,000.

Mr. THOMAS BROWN (Calare) [4.8’j. - The honorable member for Brisbane is very much concerned about honorable members on this side, and desirous of giving them an opportunity, not only to express 511 opinion, but to give a vote on this item. The honorable member suggests inconsistency because honorable members who preceded him took exception to the conditions under which immigrants are brought here - to the absence of provision for them when they arrive. There is a great difference between a desire to discourage immigration, and a desire to make proper provision for immigrants. I do not think there is any man on this side who is opposed to immigration. We have a large empty territory j and while it remains empty, there is always the danger of invasion and trouble from outside. The comparatively small number of people here have to bear the whole cost of developing this immense territory ; and we ‘know that an increase in their numbers would divide the burden to the advantage, not only of the people here, but of the people in the Old Country who are desirous of becoming citizens of the Commonwealth. What we on this side wish is that Australia should be properly advertised. We desire a ‘system of immigration which will settle our territory, develop our resources, and reduce the individual burden in the new nation we are forming. Whilst there is perhaps a general agreement as to the need for immigration, there is wide divergence of opinion as to the character of the immigrants needed. There are some who wish to see brought out to Australia working people who will congest the labour market to such a degree as to considerably reduce wages.

Mr Henry Willis:

– No one has spoken about reducing wages.

Colonel Foxton. - Wages were never so high in Queensland as when we were getting 1 .000 immigrants a month.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I leave it to Queensland representatives to reply to the honorable member’s statement; but I would remind the honorable member for Robertson of a circular issued by the Pastoralists’ Association of New South Wales not long since, and recorded in Hansard, which practically directed its members to curtail employment as much as possible in order to bring down the rates for shearing.

Mr Henry Willis:

– The rates for shearing have gone up.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– That is because of a decision of the Commonwealth

Arbitration Court. The circular referred to was issued prior to that decision, at a time when there was a dispute between the Bush Workers and the Pastoralists’ Union.

Mr Henry Willis:

– Shearers who are not unionists receive more than is paid to unionists.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– Many of my friends, the free selectors, have always given more for shearing than has been given by the large pastoralists. I refer to this matter to show that there are those who cry out for immigration, not because they desire the development of our resources by the settlement of the country, but so that they may obtain labour at lower rates. The members of the Labour Party desire to encourage the immigration of those who will assist in the development of our resources without congesting the labour market. But it has bean attempted to attach to us the stigma that we are opposed to immigration because of wishing to corner the labour market. We differ in our views of this question, I shall not say from honorable members opposite, but from a number of persons outside. The Commonwealth, by voting sums of money to assist immigration, may bring here the scum, the ne’er-do-wells, and the poor and the miserable of the Old Country. Those are not the immigrants who will assist the country to progress and prosper. At present, we cannot retain our native born; the sons of Australia, possessing grit and determination, are going elsewhere.

Mr Atkinson:

– Are many young men leaving Australia?

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– Yes, and they have been doing so for several years past.

Mr Atkinson:

– Whither are they going?

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– Many have gone to New Zealand.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– The balance of emigration and immigration between the Commonwealth and New Zealand is in our favour.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– During the first five years of Federation, our immigrants exceeded our emigrants by only 6,000 or 8,000 persons, while in New Zealand the excess was about 48,000 persons, of whom a great number had come from Australia. Farmers in my district have gone to Canada to seek for an opening.

Colonel Foxton. - And have returned to Australia.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– As evidence that the position is as I am stating it, let me show what happens in New South Wales, when Government land is offered for selection by ballot under any reasonable conditions.

Mr Henry Willis:

– More land should be made available.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– -That is what the people of the State say. There is not now sufficient land available. Men waste their energies in trying to find land on which to make homes for themselves, notwithstanding that we have practically an empty continent. The speculator and monopolist have gone on ahead, and settlers are deprived of the opportunity to get decent land. My electorateis part of the great wheat belt in the centre of New South Wales, but, according to the Sydney Morning Herald of 13th June last, when 20,000 acres were made available in the Barmedman district, in twenty-two blocks, of which fourteen were offered as conditional purchase leased areas, and six as homestead selections, there were 195 applicants.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

-No doubt each applicant applied for every one of the blocks offered.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– Not in this case. The tenure mentioned is a new tenure, not the right oflease attached to the ordinary conditional purchase. The deposits lodged in connexion with these applications amounted to £3,750.At Dubbo, in the Darling electorate, nine blocks were offered as conditional purchase leases, for which there were 284 applicants, and 302 applicants for eighteen settlement lease blocks.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– Does the honorable member say that there were no “ repeats,” that men did not put in applications for more than one block?

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I do not say that; but I do contend that there is not nearly enough land available to meet the demand. At Narrabri, there were seventy- eight applicants for a conditional lease, and fifty for a settlement lease. On 22nd October last, the Sydney Morning Herald had a paragraph headed -

page 2641

QUESTION

LAND HUNGER

1,200 Applicants for 8 Blocks. £12,500 Deposited.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– In New SouthWales, thousands of young men have vainly striven to make homes for themselves, and numbers are going to New Zealand, Queensland, and elsewhere, in the hope of getting land. Then, in Victoria, according to the Age of this morning -

For years our farmers’ sons, unable to obtain land here at a reasonable price, have been pouring out of the State in an unceasing stream. The exodus has not only diminished, but seriously vitiated our population. Five years ago we possessed more men than women, we had only a reasonable proportion of aged people, and we had more wage earners and fewer dependents than any other State.

Our population is vitiated and stagnant, immigration has ceased, the farming exodus proceeds unchecked, land stands at a prohibitive price, much of the most fertile portion of the State is an unpeopled wilderness, industrial enterprise of every sort is decadent, and unemployment is rife in our midst.

– The statistics show that the surplus is not nearly so large as it should be,

Mr FOWLER:

– I shall not discuss that matter, because I am not fortified with the statistics. There are practically only Queensland and Western Australia which offer opportunities to people with limited capital to go on the land and make homes for themselves. Of course, there is plenty of land for settlers in the other States, if that land were made available on reasonable terms. Merely referring to Victoria, we know perfectly well that that State could carry millions of population in the rural districts, and yet we may travel for a day in the railway train and see very scant evidence of human beings. It struck roe with astonishment, when I first came to Australia, and travelled from

Melbourne into a remote part of the Western. District of Victoria to see magnificent country with so few evidences of occupation ; and I regret to say that, in all the intervening years, there has been very little improvement in this direction. As a matter of fact, the tendency has been rather for the population in rural parts to be reduced by emigration to other States. There are some young friends of my own, born and brought up in the magnificent Western District, who have had to leave for other parts of Australia and New Zealand in order to find land on which they might make homes for themselves and become useful citizens. Western Australia, I believe, offers better advantages to the immigrant than do any of the other States ; and there is a considerable influx of the right sort of people into that State. I was struckwith the fact when in England that people who had emigrated from there to Canada, had returned dissatisfied with the conditions, and were meditating a change to Australia. Even in the ship in which 1 came back to Australia, there were two men who, after having been in Canada for a number of years, were returning with the intention of settling in the western State. There are in the Old Land, I believe, many who, born and brought up in the farming business, and having limited capital, would be only too glad to settle in the Australian States, where land is available on easy terms, if they were conversant with all the condi- tions. When staying in a country district in Scotland during my recentvisit. I was interviewed by several farmers, who asked me for information regarding Australia, and particularly as to Western Australia. They pointed out that, necessarily, they had a certain amount of capital, without which they could not work their farms, but that they were simply slaving, year in and year out in order to pay rent to the landlord. I very soon satisfied them that they would be able to better their condition very materially in Australia, andI believe that it only requires a certain amount of judiciousadvertising in the rural districts of the Old Land, utilizing the newspapers and able lecturers, to bring to our shores men with both ability and capital to enable them to take up land and become good citizens. I hope that the Government will proceed, somewhat on the lines I. have suggested, to spend this money; and if they do, it will be spent with good results to Australia.

I am not conversant with the details of that system, but I believe that the honorable member is right. I would remind him that we are doing something in the way of closer settlement, although we do not seem to be able to induce people to come here in such numbers as we should like.

Mr FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– There is not enough land available.

Mr ATKINSON:

– It is not so much the area of land available as the price charged for it that is the obstacle. The States should improve the Crown lands by irrigation, and in other ways, and so make them available for settlement at a reasonable rate. It .cannot be denied that the question of immigration is one of the most important with which we have to deal. We must be prepared to expend far more than £20,000 per annum on an immigration policy, and should recognise that such an expenditure may be reproductive. The question whether considered from the stand-point of defence or from any other view-point, is of the utmost importance to Australia, and this Parliament must sooner or later deal with it effectively.

Colonel FOXTON (Brisbane) [5.47].- I am not aware to what extent honorable members will avail themselves of the opportunity which the amendment I have moved will give them to support by their votes the opinions that they have already expressed with regard to the undesirableness of spending money on advertising the resources of Australia, but I wish to make perfectly clear the vote that I shall give. I have not submitted the amendment because I do not believe in advertising Australia in the Old Country. On the contrary, I consider that we should spend a great deal more than we are, and I am certain that the Minister charged with this work will be able to devise a means by which next year the advertising of Australia can be carried out, possibly at much greater expense, but with excellent effect. I should not have moved the amendment but that the honorable gentleman himself has said that he cannot spend this year the £10,000 which would remain at his disposal. It will certainly give those who have a dislike to such a vote in any shape or form an opportunity to record their decision. I do not propose to make a long speech, although this is a matter on which I feel strongly. My views may be summed up in a few words. I hold that Australia should throw open her doors to any white man of European extraction who can show that he is not a pauper, that he is not afflicted with any communicable disease likely to prejudice the population here, and that he is not likely to become a charge upon the Commonwealth or any State. We should be glad to welcome such men to our shores. My views on this subject, perhaps, are too broad for many honorable members.

Mr Carr:

– They are very profitable - tothose who want cheap labour.

Colonel FOXTON.- That is a very narrow view to take. I would remind the honorable member, as I reminded the honorable member for Calare, that at no time has the labour market of Queensland been> more favorable to the labourer, both in the matter of wages and the employment available, than when that State was spending huge sums in assisting immigrants, whowere then coming in at the rate of from i, 000 to 1,200 a month.

Mr Carr:

– Is the honorable member alluding to kanakas ?

Colonel FOXTON. - No ; I am referring to European immigrants. So much for cur actual experience, which is in perfect accord with the deductions to be drawnfrom the statistics prepared by Mr. Coghlan, and quoted this afternoon.

Mr Carr:

– What were the wages paid” at that time?

Colonel FOXTON. - I do not “know now what they were.

Mr Carr:

– That is the point of difference between us. We object to cheap labour.

Colonel FOXTON. - There was nocheap labour; every one was well and profitably employed. Mr. Coghlan reported: that it was estimated that every one of thosewho were recorded as having gone to Canada took with him on the average- £100. When that statement was made this afternoon the Minister interjected that that was probably a very liberal estimate. I remember reading a couple of yearsago that, on an average, the estimated sum which each immigrant tothe Argentine had taken with him was double that amount. We may rest assured that on the average - taking the capitalist who goes out as the result of the development that is going on, andthe man who goes to give his labour only - £100 is a very moderate estimate. That does not take into account the valueof the man himself, which is estimated by various financiers and statesmen as being from £100 to £300*

The late Mr. Seddon estimated that every immigrant in New Zealand, even without any money in his pocket, was worth ,£300 to the country. The argument that there is no land available for immigrants in Australia is absurd ; and, on this point, I should like to read a few figures from the last report of the Under-Secretary for Lands of Queensland’. At the beginning of 1907 there was open for selection land, for the most part actually surveyed and eminently fitted for the purpose, 13,600,000 acres in round figures, and during the year 6,000,000 more acres were added. Against that, however, we have to consider 3,000,000 acres which were withdrawn from selection.

Mr Watkins:

– Probably the best part.

Colonel FOXTON.- Not at all. As :i matter of fact, it is usually the worst or the land that is withdrawn and proclaimed open on another occasion under other conditions or at a lower rental. In any case this left a balance of 3,000,000 acres in addition to the 13,600,000 acres. The area selected was 4,700,000 acres, leaving a balance at the end of the year of 11,902,000 acres. It will be seen that Queensland is doing her best in a practical way to bring people on the land.

Mr Crouch:

– I do not think that any exception was taken to the action of Queensland, but rather to the inaction in the southern .States.

Colonel FOXTON. - But honorable members talk of Australia, while in their narrowness they seem to have regard only to the southern States.

Mr FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– What about the climate?

Colonel FOXTON.- It is the best in the world, and that of Darling Downs is practically the same as that of New England.

Mr Watkins:

– Is the land spoken of on Darling Downs?

Colonel FOXTON.- Much of it is, or in districts having a similar elevation. Do the honorable member for Capricornia and the honorable member for Moreton suggest in their physique men who cannot live in such a climate?

Mr Mathews:

– And yet the agencies in the Old Country will not bring, all the applicants out to Queensland.

Colonel FOXTON.- The Queensland Government, under a penalty of £4 per head for any shortage, have to insure to the British- India Company, to which th~ey

Pay £37>°°° a year as a subsidy, 200 immigrants for every ship. The number nf selectors for the land, of which I have just spoken, was 3,181, which represents something like 1,500 acres per selector. Of these no fewer than 589 caine from the other States, and these latter selected 580,000 acres. These young fellows are no new chums, but know what they are about-; and yet there are 12,000,000 acres, approximately similar to those selected, yet remaining, and other areas are constantly being opened up as the pastoral leases fall in. Whatever may be the condition of affairs in the south, where, possibly, the population is more congested, there is ample room for every immigrant who chooses to come to Queensland.

Mr Batchelor:

– Why “stone-wall” this item?

Colonel FOXTON. - I intend to say just as much as I choose in regard to this item; and I do not think that the figures I have quoted are altogether useless. Honorable members, as it whole, may not quite realize that such figures are possible ; but I may add that some 66,000 acres of Queensland territory were actually selected in London last year.

Mr Mathews:

– How many million acres have the Government repurchased ?

Colonel FOXTON. - The Government have purchased a good many acres, but not millions.

Mr Groom:

– I think the Government have repurchased 500,000 acres.

Colonel FOXTON.- I am now dealing with Crown lands.

Mr Groom:

– Every acre was taken up as rapidly as repurchased.

Colonel FOXTON. - It is nonsense to talk of there being no land for selectors.

Mr Crouch:

– Those remarks were not made of Queensland.

Colonel FOXTON.- But we are a Federation, and Queensland is part of Australia; and it is time we heard the last of the cry that there ought to be no immigration, because there is no land. It is only a small proportion of the emigrants to Canada who go on the land ; but their presence gives an additional value to it, and causes the opening up of the country and increased employment and prosperity ah round. I am not one who believes that the farm labourer is the only person who should be subjected to competition by immigration. We hear from various sources, both inside and outside this House, that there should be no competition withthe artisan in this connexion; but with that idea I have no sympathy.

Mr McWilliams:

– That idea comes from the Trades Hall, in Lygon-street.

Colonel FOXTON. - I do not know where it comes from, but we hear it constantly ; and. we know that the moment there is a proposal to introduce artisans, objections are raised from honorable members opposite.

Mr. JOSEPH COOK (Parramatta.) (6.6]. - I have been patiently waiting to hear what the Minister has to say in regard to this vote, in connexion with which the honorable member for Brisbane has moved a reduction by no less a sum than £10,000. Have the Ministry any views?

Mr BATCHELOR:
Minister of External Affairs · Boothby · ALP

– I can give the honorable member my views in two or three words. As I previously informed honorable members, it is not very material whether the vote be reduced by £10,000. So much of the year has passed over and so little of the £20,000 has been spent, that it is extremely improbable that we can wisely or judiciously spend more than £10,000 in the remaining interval.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr Tudor:

– How far does the honorable member go back ?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– It is not necessary to go back many months to find evidence of very surprising changes of opinion on the part of my honorable friends. Does the Minister propose to invite able-bodied men to come to Australia, promising them opportunities for acquiring comfort and a competency for their families?

Mr Hall:

– The honorable member does not believe that.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I believe that no other country offers such facilities for getting on as Australia does. The answer to mv honorable friend’s diatribes against immigration is a statement in the Queensland Year-Book, that in that State nearly 12,000,000 acres of Crown lands are available for settlement.

Mr Watson:

Mr Watson:

– We recognise the good work which he did. He has fallen away since.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I do not think so. I desire to prevent the aggregation of large estates, and wish to see the country teeming with a busy and prosperous population, cultivating reasonably small areas.

The establishment of such settlement would foe the best security for the safety of the State- But legislative reforms cannot be expedited^ by any such forcing process as is applied to the growing of mushrooms. It will be many years before all the evils of our land system disappear. Most of us will be under the soil before then. Are we, in the meantime, to do nothing for the progress of Australia? To my mind, we should do everything possible to advance its interests, at the same time struggling, as best we may, against the evils which face us. There is one matter upon which I have spoken annually for many years past. My honorable friends always seem to forget, or ignore, the fact that the most progressive countries of the world, those that pay the highest wages and give the best conditions, are countries into which immigrants are teeming by the hundred thousand every year.

Mr FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– That is because the conditions are there. That is New Zealand’s case.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The New South Wales statistics for last year showed that IG.000 immigrants came to that State from New Zealand alone.

Mr Batchelor:

– That is not the cause; it is only the effect.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I say nothing about the cause. I simply state that New Zealand is getting her immigrants because she is encouraging them, to come, advertising for them, helping them by assisted passages, and inducing them to set up for themselves. But honorable members opposite say that unless there is a job cut and dried for a man, he must not be brought to Australia at all. A good many of us in this House did not come here in that way. I came with the firm intention ov going for anything that might turn up in the way of an honest living, and I venture to say that other honorable members came here in the same spirit, and with the same motive. The countries which at this moment are furnishing the most striking examples of industrial comfort and decency are those which are absorbing the populations of the older countries of the world - America, Canada, New Zealand, and Australia now more and more every year. In my own State things are quite as good today as they have been for many years past, and yet last year six or seven thousand families were settled in the interior of that country, many of them assisted immigrants. I have yet to learn that with a country like ours, with our virgin soil and magnificent opportunities, we must discourage immigration, except on such conditions as prevent the possibility of carrying any scheme into effect. My honorable friends ought to admit that, if all that they suggest must be done as precedent things, it simply means that they do not propose to make any serious attempt at immigration for years to come. It would be far more honest for the Minister to tell the Committee so, as his friends behind him have done to-day, instead of piloting this vote through, and telling the Committee that he has not the slightest intention of spending ali this money.

Sitting suspended from 6.30 to 7.4.5 p.m.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– One can readily admit that there are many troubles perplexing Australia - troubles of settlement, of fixing the people on the soil of the country - and yet one can see by an elementary survey of the situation that something needs doing with regard to the peopling of Australia. If we are going to wait until every obstacle to absolutely consistent action is removed, it is evident that no good will ever be done in the direction of inducing good citizens from other parts of the world to make their homes here. Granted that there are difficulties, the major fact stands out that there is a crying need for something more to be done in this direction. Reference has been made to the legislation enacted from time to time in this Parliament with a view to safeguarding the workers of Australia from unfair conditions imposed through the medium of immigration. I believe that legislation of a prudent kind is absolutely necessary. I have never taken any other attitude. It would be a calamity to Australia if any body of men could be dumped down here from anywhere, and in any circumstances, it might be at critical times in our industrial history, to wrench from the workers of Australia the fruits of victories which they had won on many a hard-fought field. But it makes me annoyed when I see my honorable friends opposite taking a course which does not bring them one whit nearer their goal, and which interposes obstacles of quite another kind. Take the Immigration Restriction Act. I am with them that certain restrictions and conditions ought to be imposed upon the wholesale bringing here of labour of any kind from abroad. I am with them to the full in their contention that some kind of safeguard must be imposed to prevent what I should regard as an industrial calamity to Australia. With them, I want to maintain Labour ideals at their highest point in Australia, but their legislation seeks to do that in the most cumbersome way. When there is a ready and simple method of achieving the same result, it is absurd, for purely theatrical and political effect, to take a course which is cumbrous, and not one whit more effective. It is a fact that some of our immigration restriction legislation has had a deterrent effect. The honorable member for Brisbane did not mean to-day that people are actually turned back from Australia. His point was that men are sometimes deterred by our laws from coming to Australia.

Mr Hughes:

– By infamous and lying misstatements made by interested parties as to the condition of things in Australia.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Admitting even that for the sake of argument, it does not touch the point I am putting. The risk that a contract immigrant runs in coming to Australia may very well be such as to prevent him from making the attempt. Whilst differing from them as to the methods to be employed, and deploring the results of some that have been employed, I am with honorable members opposite to the full in every effort to keep our gOod1 industrial conditions intact. But, having admitted that, there is still need to look about to see if we cannot induce good citizens from other parts of the world to fill up our empty spaces. The Attorney-General admitted as much in his eloquent speech on defence recently. What are we to do about the matter? The honorable member suggests that the only thing to do is to begin to burst up large estates.

Mr Hughes:

– I said that was one thing. I did not say it was the only thing.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– It would be easy to quote from the speeches of nearly every honorable member on that side of the House passages showing that the only thing to do in regard to the question of immigration is to tackle the precedent question of bursting up the big estates.

Mr Watson:

– That is the first thing to do.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Without controverting even that, and assuming for the moment that it is one of the things to be desired, I still say that immigration ought not to wait upon it. With a thorough systematization and organization of the Labour opportunities of Australia, such as I have already foreshadowed time and again in this chamber, very much could be done to curtail the unemployed problem, if not completely to overcome it, and still leave abundance of space open to whoever cares to come, bringing with him the best of all assets -a clear brain, stout muscle, and a good heart. That is the kind of immigration we wish to encourage. I could well wish to see this vote greatly enlarged. We could spend ,£20,000 a year, and more, in advertising the unbounded resources of Australia, without paying a single shilling of it towards assisted passages. The current history of the world shows that the highest wages and best conditions obtain in those countries to which constant and steady streams of immigration are proceeding. It is no answer to that fact to say that the problem of land settlement has been tackled in those countries. Ithas not. lt has not been tackled in the greatest country of them all - the United States of America - whither go more immigrants in the year than to all other parts of the world. Artisans and labourers go there by the million per annum,, finding the opportunities that prevail there, and are absorbed in that great republic. So far from America being the worse for it, what has made that country has been the admixture of the virility of the Continent, and of the ability, skill, and genius which is to be found in every part of the world.

Mr Page:

– There is no general exodus from Australia to that grand El Dorado. If it is such a paradise as the honorable member suggests, we ought all to go to it at once.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I am not suggesting that it is a paradise. I hope that we shall be able to keep all our people. I think the conditions here are as good as the honorable member thinks they are.

Mr Page:

– The best in the world.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I think so. We are at one in regard to this paradise. The honorable member has reason to be proud of Australia, and so have I. I hope that we shall remain here, and see it develop steadily along industrial lines because that, after all, is the true test of any country’s stability. Where the workers are prospering - - where those who do the hard work are most comfortable - the best conditions must prevail. I do not wish to even lift a finger against any legislation that would prevent the realization of these ideals to the full; but I do think that my honorable friends opposite are not always wise in their methods. I hope that we may agree to disagree with their methods without being accused of desiring to fill Australia with immigrants with the object nf exploiting labour, and for purposes which it is inhuman to even think of. The suggestion has been made to-day by an honorable member opposite that all we seek to do is to bring a surfeit of human labour to Australia so that it may be exploited by heartless capitalists here. I should be sorry to think that such a scheme was in contemplation. I. do not believe that any honorable member thinks that anything like that is possible in Australia, or would help to bring it about. Here is the practical question with which we are faced : Can we anything in a legitimate and reasonable way to bring people to Australia, and so fill up -our empty spaces with a view to making the Commonwealth safe in the times of stress that are unquestionably ahead. I think that we can, and should have liked to hear from the Government of a more diligent searching of this problem in order to put before the Parliament definite proposals by which this money may be wisely expended in other parts of the world. If the Government did that, I should most heartily support them. I do not think that we should adopt indiscriminate methods. I do not want to see people dumped here with the certainty that they will become a burden to us. There is a method of procedure which, while avoiding those evils, will enable us to make substantial progress in the direction we all so much desire. I shall vote for this item of £20,000, and would vote for another £20,000 for the same purpose if it were on the Estimates. I have only to say in conclusion that I hope we shall dead with this question - and there is no more important one connected with these Estimates - free of party feeling. We have got into the habit of bringing everything into the arena of party strife, and one is tempted, when one hears certain statements coming from the other side of the

House-

Mr Watson:

– They are as nothing compared with what we have heard from the Opposition. I have heard some most reprehensible statements from the Opposition side of the House.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member has heard nothing that could not be matched and overmatched by statements from his own side. I am not going, however, to follow in that strain. Some one has been good enough to hand me a copy of statements made b<- the Prime Minister only a year ago, but I think that it would be profitless to quote them.

Mr Page:

– The honorable member promised that he would not hold a post mortem.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I do not intend to do so. I hope that if the Government are going to remain in office they will formulate a strenuous policy, doing something to clear away the misapprehensions that they allege to exist, and using this money to the fullest advantage in advertising the resources of Australia, and inducing people of the right class - if they have a little capital all the better - to come to this Continent and help to fill it up.

Mr WATSON:
South Sydney

.- I do not suppose that among those who view the circumstances of Australia with serious eyes there can be two opinions as to the necessity of our straining every effort to fill up the vacant spaces to which the honorable member for Parramatta has just alluded. From the stand-point of defence alone, it is necessary, if we are to have not merely a training of our adult population, but also a sufficient malepopulation to adequately defend Australia should the need arise. There is no doubt that it is with other cognate matters, the most important problem confronting the politicians of Australia to-d’ay. I am not among those who say that even under present conditions there is no room for a vast addition to our population. In many parts of Australia there is still Crown land available, although I admit that it is not to be found in settled districts, or largely in districts in which settlement has proved successful. I am not too sure that it would be wise to settle immigrants ignorant of Australian conditions in new districts where they would be without the advice of men of local experience. In opening up new land, it is preferable to have young men who ha.ve been trained in our more densely-populated areas, and who, knowing something of Australian conditions, are more likely to be successful. However, I do not sympathize with those who say that the conditions prevailing here to-day are such that we could not welcome people here. I believe that there is room, particularly in country areas, for a large number, but while I object to the pessimistic attitude of some men - including some of the members of my own party- - as to the policy of immigration. I must even more emphatically object to statements like those made this afternoon by the honorable member for Brisbane. The honorable member said that our laws were preventing people from coming to Australia. I presume that when he spoke of “ people,” he had in mind desirable immigrants - that he was not referring to coloured aliens. As a matter of fact, we have no law which prevents any person who is not a native of Asia coming to Australia as a free immigrant.

Mr WATSON:

- Sir Horace Tozer had sufficient intelligence to know that the certificate that he gave his maid was un necessary. It was contrary to the distinct instructions he had received as a temporary agent of the . Commonwealth. He knew from his instructions that it was not necessary. The girl came out with the certificate in question, but was not asked to produce it, and it was not necessary for her to have it. I suppose that Sir Horace Tozer was not in sympathy with the idea that there should be any restriction, and it struck him that it would be a good thing, from an advertising stand-point, to give his maid the certificate. It was one of those clever movements for which, I understand, he was famous in Queensland politics, but it did not achieve its object. As- soon as the Minister explained that the girl was not asked to produce any certificate, and need not have produced it, the whole story was exploded. The honorable member for Brisbane, if he was speaking without knowledge, has only to turn to the Statute.

Colonel Foxton. - I know what the law is.

Mr WATSON:

– That makes the hon- .orable member’s statement this afternoon still less justifiable.

Colonel Foxton. - No.

Mr WATSON:

– It is of a piece with those deliberate misrepresentations to the detriment of Australia that have been spread broadcast, in the most infamous way, by the British press. A citizen who will spread such foundationless reports against his own country in Canada would be .sent to gaol. There is in force in Canada now a law which deals with people who make unfounded statements to the detriment of the country.

Colonel Foxton. - My statement is not unfounded.

Mr WATSON:

– It is. No person has been denied admission to Australia unless he was a coloured man ; the honorable member ought to know that.

Mr WATSON:

– Here is the law.

Mr WATSON:

– Queensland has some, certainly.

Colonel Foxton. - Enormous areas.

Mr WATSON:

– The honorable member for Brisbane assented to a general proposition that it was not wise to send immigrants into new districts, and the clearest proof that Queensland has not land in the vicinity of districts already settled is that for some years land has been resumed for the purpose.

Colonel Foxton. - That is quite adifferent matter.

Mr WATSON:

– But it is an indication that land in districts where the methods of settlement are understood, and where the local conditions ‘are appreciated by the existing settlers, is at a premium, and has to be bought back by the State.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– All thatthat indicates is that it is desirable to resume land in a particular place.

Mr WATSON:

– I hold the contrary view - that the land in eligible districts has reached a minimum, if it has not disappeared altogether.

– In the case of manufacturers there is the possibility of. competition, which does not exist in the case of land monopoly. We cannot make land as we can other commodities; and, therefore, the conditions are different. There seems to be on the part, not only of honorable members, but of people outside, a deliberate attempt to misrepresent the attitude of the Labour Party in regard to immigration.

ColonelFoxton. - Then it is not a ques- tion of what is the law, but a question of what is the view of the Labour leagues whichdominatetheLabourParty.

Mr WATSON:

– The honorable member is begging the question. His statement was that men were being prevented from coming into Australia ; and I say that that statement is absolutely incorrect. The hon orable member then goes off at a tangent, and asks what is the opinion of the Labour leagues outside.

Colonel Foxton. - My contention has been the same all through.

Mr WATSON:

Mr WATSON:

– Yes, providing that land is madeavailable for settlement. If townspeople are brought here in large numbers, we shall soon have a surplus which we cannot absorb. Our industries cannot expand rapidly enough to absorb large numbers of immigrating artisans and town dwellers, unless there is an enormous expansion of pastoral, and, particularly, agricultural settlement.

Mr Atkinson:

– How would a progres sive land tax cheapen land for immigrants ?

Mr WATSON:

Mr WATSON:

– No.

Dr Wilson:

Mr FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

.- When we have the lie hurled at us day after day that the Labour Party are opposed to immigration and to the increase of population in Australia, it is our duty to refute it at every opportunity. I was pleased to hear the honorable member for Kooyong admit that one of the greatest obstacles to immigration to this country was to be found in the lies told with regard to one or two little cases where men were blocked from coming in under contract. The stories circulated at that time by those who were opposed to progress in Australia had a damaging effect which it will take us years to live down. The leader of the Opposition referred tothe glorious fact that Canada and the United States were receiving immigrants by the tens of thousands; but he did not tell us that the main reason was that those were two great manufacturing countries with splendid systems of protection. He also failed to tell the Committee that the United States of America were so particular that they turn back thousands of men every year on account of defective eyesight and other physical shortcomings. The United States have a very severe Immigration Restriction Act, and refuse toaccept the flotsam and jetsam of the slums of Europe. They have even turned back people from Australia and New Zealand. So stringent is their restriction of immigration that the shipping companies which carry immigrants to America are particular to have them examined before they start, because they are obliged to take them back if rejected. Another half truth told to us by the honorable member for Brisbane, was that there are millions of acres of Crown lands ready for settlement in Australia. There are also several millions of acres that could be made ready for settlement. Some are Crown lands which are locked up under long leases to large land owners. It is high time that they were made available.

Dr Wilson:

– You can open the doors to them any day with your cash.

Mr FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– No; I trust him to spend it judiciously. I wish once more to enter an emphatic protest against Australia being advertised in a way that is calculated to create a false impression. I object to people in foreign countries being led to believe that they have only to come here to find a fortune ready to fall into their hands.

Mr HANS IRVINE:
GRAMPIANS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910

– I would remind those who have been protesting against the proposed vote of £20^000 to advertise the resources of Australia .that we have to consider the primaryproducer. We must do so apart altogether from any question as to the imposition of the progressive land tax which we are told the Ministry intend to propose next session. Those who have decried this movement need to be reminded that if, as the result of advertising, our people are able to obtain better prices for their products in the markets of the world, they will be able to pay better wages. The more attention we draw to our produce the more likely are we to attract people to our shores.

Many honorable members who have spoken to-night have sought to depreciate die usesof capital, but they have had to admit that we cannot do without it. The honorablemember who has just resumed his seat hassaid that a man who has £1,000 at hiscommand can buy a suitable area and work out his own salvation. Every man who desires to become a primary producer must be prepared to do that. As one associated with the primary producers, I do not hesitate to say that it is the duty of the Commonwealth Government, as senior partner in the firmto which the Australian States belong, todo their level best to draw attention to our resources. That, I think, is sound commonsense. We have been told to-night that weneed first of all to impose a land tax. I’ would remind honorable members that whenthe power to impose such taxation was conceded, it was believed that it would never be exercised save in a case of special emergency.

Mr Watson:

– We are only to spend themoney !

Mr HANS IRVINE:
GRAMPIANS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910

– We must certainly advertise our resources. The honorable member for New England has pointed’ out that Australia comprises an area of 3,000,000 square miles, and yet we are told1 that we have no land available for settlement. Our population is little more than’ 4,000,000, so that we have about 750,00c- square miles to every million people in Australia. The honorable member for New England must be aware that there is land’ available in all parts of the Commonwealth. The honorable member for Wannon could tell tha House that in his electorate, where settlement has rapidly increased of recent years, the farmers will’ average about five bags to the acre, or say 18 bushels, and that every man will netsomething like £2 per acre off his land. That land was bought at an average price, not exceeding £6 an acre, representing athreeyears’ purchase; and I should like to know what country could show better results. There are tens of thousands of acres of similar quality to be obtained on the same terms and conditions all over Australia; and yet we are told it is urgent and necessary, in the interests of labour, that there should be a land tax imposed. In my opinion, there is another object inview, namely, to keep out immigrants, and’ make Australia a “ close borough “ for the Labour Party and their adherents; I’ told1 the honorable member for South Sydney that all through the country districts, there is at present employment for thousands of men at fair wages harvesting, but that they prefer to remain in the large towns and Capitals. The policy of the Labour Party apparently is to build up the cities, and not to take much notice of the country ; but we should have our labour in the country, which produces the wealth on which the artisans exist, and the burden should be made as light as possible for the man on the land. I intend to support the vote, and would have done so if it had proposed an expenditure of £50,000, because it will be well spent in advertising, and causing a keener demand and higher prices for what we produce.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– I know that members of the Ministry profess to think that there is some “ stone-walling” on this side, but if there be any it is from honorable members behind the Government, whose speeches are such as to draw replies even from honorable members who had no intention to speak. The honorable member for South Sydney contends that it is wrong to suggest that the Labour Party, as a party, are against immigration; but the remarks we have had from that honorable member and others show that the suggestion is a true one. Statements which the Labour Party have made with such clearness, and repeated so often, leave no other conclusion possible; and the attitude of the Government on this very item is further proof of their opposition to immigration.

Mr Hughes:

– The Labour Party have always been against indiscriminate immigration.

Mr Watson:

– I never objected to a moderate expenditure ; but I do object to any large measure of immigration being entered upon, unless there be also a scheme of land taxation. I have no objection to the work the Government are now doing.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

Mr Batchelor:

– There has been a similar exemption in the platform of the Labour Party in South Australia for eighteen years.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– At any rate, the Labour Party objected to an exemption of estates under£240whereas now they propose an exemption of £5,000.

The effect of such a tax would certainly not be what is anticipated. In the first place, if it did dispossess holders of land, it would only operate in the case of land of the least value, because those with good land would be able to pay the land tax and retain it. It will, therefore, be seen that the land which would be thrown open by taxation would be that on which it was most difficult to make a living. The figures in regard to the New Zealand land tax support the contention that the land tax there has not had the effect claimed. According to my reading, the results do not agree with the statements made by honorable members opposite. We are told that the progressive land tax in New Zealand has been highly successful ; and I may admit that though it is not quite the tax favored by the Labour Party here, it is a progressive land tax. In addition to the tax, the New Zealand Government have been for years purchasing estates and cutting them up. What is the combined result? In 1902-3, the holders of 5,000 acres and upwards numbered 862, whereas in 1906-7, although there had been cutting up of estates in the interval, they numbered 918. The total area held by those who owned 5,000 acres and upwards in 1902-3 was 20,892,000 acres, and in 1906-7 the area was 20,154,000 acres. That is considerably over half the occupied land ; and we have those results, notwithstanding the progressive tax and the cutting up of estates by the Government.

Mr Hughes:

– The holders were wait ing to be bought out.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– These are the results; and it does not matter what the reasons were.

Mr Hughes:

– It does matter.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– The same reason would apply in any case. This land tax has been lauded as causing the success of New Zealand ; and we are asked to follow that example. The honorable member for New England pointed out that, in consequence of such legislation, the population of New Zealand had grown by leaps and bounds ; and the honorable member for, Calare told us that the young men of Australia are leaving for the Dominion.. But figures previously quoted show that Australia, by the interchange of population with New Zealand, is gaining about 3,000 a year. Doubtless, some of our young men went to Canada, but most of them have returned or are trying to return ; and we had to vote a considerable sum of money in order to pay the passage of several hundred back from South Africa. Whatever our policy is, it is clearly one which, so far from driving people away, attracts them to Australia.

Mr Mathews:

– It is better to starve at home than in a foreign land.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– These men, by going abroad, showed that they are enterprising and active, and the fact that, after their experiences in another country, they desired to return, speaks well for Australian conditions.

Mr Carr:

– They were brought back.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– Some had to be brought back, which proves that they were not doing well abroad, and felt that they would be better off at home. Then, notwithstanding all that has been said about the results of New Zealand legislation, the exchanges between that country and the Commonwealth tell in our favour to the extent of 3,000 persons per annum. It has been claimed that the New Zealand land legislation has attracted to the Dominion a larger number of immigrants than have come to Australia ; but while as between 1901 and 1906 her population increased by 115,000, which was 36,000 more than the increase in the previous five years, and the largest she has had, that of New South Wales increased by 150,000.

Mr Mahon:

– It has been said that that was due to protection.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– Then it is very curious that in Victoria, the home of protection, there was a loss of population. It must be remembered, moreover, that the years which I have taken were very prosperous ones for New Zealand, while during a large part of the period. New South Wales was suffering from one of the most severe droughts known in her history.

Mr Mathews:

– The immigrants to New South Wales were city folk. About 80,000 of them went to swell the population of the cities.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– There was an increase in both city and country population. During the drought years many persons left the country to reside in Sydney, because their stock was dead, and their properties could not be worked. The figures which I have given disprove the arguments which have been used. Then as to land values : I was in New Zealand eighteen months or two years ago, and found that land values there were so high that it seemed almost impossible that they could be sustained. Many persons, indeed, are finding it profitable to sell their Kew Zealand properties to buy land in Australia.

Mr Groom:

– Thirty came over in one day.

Mr Page:

– Then why spend money in advertising to attract immigrants here?

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– The immigration should be still larger than it is. I admit that there should be selection. We desire immigrants who will settle in the country rather than in the cities. Two of the largest States - Western Australia and Queensland - have made preparation for immigration, and the others are following their lead. Therefore the Commonwealth will do well to assist in attracting immigrants to Australia. Character is often worth more than money. Many of those who in the past came here with nothing are doing a great deal for the country. We ought to encourage the immigration of men of stamina and good character, as well as of farmers with money in their pockets. I should like to see a stream of sturdy immigrants who would assist our progress and advancement.

Mr Batchelor:

– So should I.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– The fathers of some honorable members, and other honorable members themselves, came to Australia, in some cases, without money, and it would be unjust to exclude others of our countrymen because they had little.

Mr Bamford:

– They are not excluded.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– I shall support a policy which will assist the immigration of sturdy men of various occupations. In dealing with land taxation the honorable member for South Sydney overlooked the fact that the buyer of large blocks of land, subject to a. tax, would discount his liability for taxation in the price he would pay. I am assuming that it is proposed to impose an honest tax, not a confiscatory one. Consequently the second holder would not feel the taxation, which would have no tendency to force him to cut up his estate.

Mr Mahon:

– There might be causes which would prevent the discounting of the tax.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– The circumstances surrounding the sale of land vary greatly, and many considerations be sides liability to taxation affect values. But the results of the New Zealand legislation do not bear out the contentions of the honorable member for South Sydney. The honorable member for Calare spoke of the number of applicants for Crown land in New South Wales, and said that in the Moree district there were 1,200 for eight blocks. I saw it stated in the newspaper that the number was 800, and a member of his party said that that was so. It must be remembered that an applicant can apply for each of the blocks available without making more than one deposit.

Mr Thomas:

– Still there must have been at least 100 applicants.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– The applicants probably did not number so many. The honorable member for Maranoa knowsthat when people have an opportunity te take part in what is virtually a lottery, they often associate to improve their chances. That multiplies the number of applications, but not of genuine applicants. Probably the applicants for these blocks did not number more than fifty or sixty.

Mr Batchelor:

– Are they examined separately?

– The one is an International body, and the other is local.

Mr PAGE:

– Does not the honorable member think that tropical diseases can be studied to greater advantage here than in England ?

Mr Batchelor:

– There is no overlapping.

Mr PAGE:

– Very well, I approve oi the proposed grant to the Townsville Institute, but I certainly object to the proposed vote of ,£500 as a contribution to the funds of the Imperial Institute. I move -

That the item, “ Contribution to funds of Imperial Institute, .£500,” be left out.

Mr BATCHELOR:
Minister of External Affairs · Boothby · ALP

– I hope that the honorable member will not press his amendment. I believe that at one time the Imperial Institute had the reputation of being more of a social club than anything else.

Mr Page:

– That is what it is.

Mr BATCHELOR:

Question - That the item “Contribution to funds of Imperial Institute, £500,” be left out - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 10

NOES: 0

Majority … … a6

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Mr FRAZER:
Kalgoorlie

– I move -

That the item, “Contribution to funds of Imperial Institute,£500,” be reduced by £250.

Dr CARTY SALMON:

Mr HENRY WILLIS:
Robertson

– Ihave before me a report to the Board of Trade as to the work of the Imperial Institute, from which it would appear that it carries out an exhaustive work in regard to tropical agriculture and the examination of plants. There is one paragraph in the report which is of great importance to Australia. We all know that large quantities of fodder are imported from South Africa, and therefore the following statement appearing in. the report should be of interest: -

It has been alleged that the oats grown in Cape Colony are unsuitable for use as forage, and that they produce a peculiar bone disease in animals fed with them. Four typical samples of oats produced in Cape Colony were sent to the Imperial Institute by the Agricultural Department, and were carefully examined. It was found that the oats were deficient in certain mineral constituents which are important as bone-forming materials, and it is probably to this deficiency that the ill effects observed in horses fed with these oats are due. Suggestions have been made to the Government of Cape Colony that the investigation should be extended, in order, if possible, to find a method of improving the quality of the oats.

Dr Carty Salmon:

– That item alone is worth more than the £500 proposed to he voted to the Institute.

Mr HENRY WILLIS:

– It is certainly of the greatest importance to Australia.

South African oats are imported by us, and I know that the bone disease referred to in this report has made its appearance in certain parts of New South Wales. A neighbour of mine told me recently that it had broken out upon his holding, and I know that it exists in other parts of the State. There is in Melbourne a firm manufacturing a “ lick “ for this form of disease. It was thought that the outbreak was due to a deficiency of lime in the soil where the cattle were depastured; but the investigations of the Imperial Institute show that it is also caused by stock being fed on oats imported from Cape Colony.

Mr Chanter:

– Itwas upon that information that the various States Governments prohibited the introduction of certain products from South Africa.

Mr HENRY WILLIS:

– That is certainly interesting news. I do not think that the proposed vote will be lost to us, and I hope that it will be agreed to.

Mr CROUCH:
Corio

– I regret that I was not present at the outset of the debate on this item, but I trust that as the result of it, the Minister of External Affairs will hesitate to place a similar item on the Estimates next year. I am glad that it is proposed to reduce the item by £250. I know a little of the history of the Institute. In 1887, it was determined to commemorate the Jubilee of the late Queen Victoria, and subscriptions were invited’ from all parts of the Empire. A resident of Victoria contributed £1,000, and was subsequently knighted. The Government of Victoria also subscribed £1,000, and continued that contribution for two or three years. Eventually a member of the State Parliament inquired what was the nature of the work being carried out by the Institute, and the Agent-General was instructed to ascertain what had become of the exhibits forwarded by the Government to this great scientific institution, which was supposed to display products from all parts of the Empre. He found that the Victorian exhibits were crushed into a small case that could scarcely be seen.

Dr Carty Salmon:

– When was this?

Mr CROUCH:

– About 1898 or 1899. The people became so disgusted with the Institute that it ceased to exist as an independent organization. If we agree to the proposed vote, the money will be paid really to the British Board of Trade, which now conducts the Institute. We are asked to grant a subsidy to an Imperial office.

The Imperial Institute was a “white elephant,” and was used largely for the creation of billets. It was at first regarded as a rival to the Royal Colonial Institute, which does good work, but the latter has enormous properties and revenues, and could not be fought successfully. The Board of Trade has a scientific Department, and it was thought well to house it in the Imperial Institute. We read in the Bulletin of the Imperial Institute for 1904 -

In1900, the building became the property of Her Majesty’s Government, by whom the western portion and galleries were leased to the Governing Body of the Imperial Institute, the greater part of the eastern and central portions being assigned to the use of the University of London. In July, 1902, an Act of Parliament was passed transferring the management of the Imperial Institute to the Board of Trade, assisted by an Advisory Committee, including representatives of India and the Colonies, us well as of the India and Colonial Offices, the Board of Agriculture, and the Board of trade. This Act took effect on January 1st, 1903.

– I do not know, but I should imagine that it was, because departments must become more effective as time goes on.

Question - That the item, “Contribution to funds of Imperial Institute, £500,” be reduced by £250 - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 10

NOES: 35

Majority … … 25

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Mr JOHNSON:
Lang

– I should like to know the meaning of the item “ Towards expenses of press representatives to the Congress of the Chambers of Commerce, £500.”

Mr Batchelor:

– It refers to the visit of press representatives to Great Britain.

Mr ATKINSON:
Wilmot

– I desire an explanation of the item “ Collection of Australian historical records, £650.”

Mr Batchelor:

– We are co-operating with the Government of New South Wales, which had undertaken the collection of historical records relating to that State, and this money is being expended in the collection and classification of historical records of Australia.

Mr ATKINSON:

– I am satisfied with the explanation of the Minister.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Attorney-General’ s Department.

Division 17 (Secretary’s Office), £3,556.

Mr FRAZER:
Kalgoorlie

.- I move -

That the item, “ Secretaryand Parliamentary Draftsman, £900,” be reduced by £100.

Mr GROOM:

– The Minister does not even inquire as regards the subject-matter of the Bill. But in the particular case which the honorable member mentioned, it happened that the Quarantine Bill was being debated in the House. The Minister of Trade and Customs, who was in charge of it, had arranged to go to Tasmania on, I think, speaking from memory, a

Friday afternoon, and before he left he gave to me orally an instruction which I communicated to the Secretary to prepare a clause on certain lines. Later on the honorable member came with his amendment, and consulted the Secretary, who informed me of the fact. I think that the honorable member saw me on the subject at the time,

– They are questions of law. When it appears that the Commonwealth has the right to legislate, and American authorities sustain the contention, should we refrain from exercising our powers from the fear that some one may question the constitutionality ?

Some explanation is required of the “ allowance for extra duties, *£s°>” to be paid to the secretary.

The honorable member for Ballarat defended the proposed increase of £50, and then the honorable member for Angas said -

I do not say that the allowance is not deserved in this case ; but the payment of allowances introduces a bad principle. Our present Parliamentary Draftsman is, I think,’ a good man, but we have to judge of these officers in the abstract ; and it is better to have a fixed salary to cover all duties. I would prefer to sea a salary of ^Soo rather than a salary of £750 with an allowance of ^50.

The Attorney-General interjected -

The salary of heads of Departments has been fixed at /750, and in future it will be necessary to have a secretary with that salary.

The honorable member for Robertson observed that -

The sum of ^750 should be the entire salary of this officer. At an early period of the session, I was under the impression that this salary was to be ^500.

Mr Hughes:

– The Parliamentary Draftsman had to do what we requested him to do.

Mr PAGE:

– The honorable member has picked out all the good plums, so far as this officer is concerned, and I am now referring to those that are specked. I am not questioning Mr. Garran ‘s ability as a draftsman ; I am simply objecting to the proposed increase of his salary. Some time ago thirty constituents of mine, living at some distance from a main road, and doing pioneering work in the western part of Queensland, desired a mail service that would cost something like £27 per annum. The late Postmaster-General said that the money could not be found, but the Government of which, he was a member prepared these Estimates, providing for an increase of £100 in the salary of this officer, and the Attorney- General now comes forward, and says, ‘’ Yes, Mr. Mauger.” On the 26th September, 1902, the honorable member for Bland, now the honorable member for South Sydney, moved in Supply -

That the item, “ Secretary and Parliamentary Draftsman,£800,” be reduced by£50, and after a very keen debate that amendment was lost by one vote. The honorable member, in the course of the debate, asked -

Are we to pay several other officers to do the work ? Admitting that the Secretary to the Attorney-General’s Department occupies a responsible position, I say, nevertheless, that his work is not so responsible, and does not involve so much work, care, and anxious consideration as do the duties of the secretaries of some of the other Departments.

Mr Hughes:

– The honorable member for South Sydney then said that a salary of £750 was sufficient for this officer, as he had only four officers under him.

Mr PAGE:

– The officers of the Department have since been increased. It has grown out of its swaddling-clothes.

Mr Hughes:

– And the responsibilities of the Secretary have increased. Why is a. general paid more than a colonel?

Mr PAGE:

– -Because his responsibilities are greater.

Mr Hughes:

– And that is the position in this case.

Mr PAGE:

– In answer to the honorable member for South Sydney, the then PrimeMinister, the honorable member for Ballarat, said -

I take the liberty of differing from the honorable member entirely.

The Hansard report continues -

Mr WATSON:

– I suppose there is nothing like leather, and I can quite understand the magnifying effect of the glasses through which the honorable and learned gentleman looks at anything connected with the law.

That remark will apply to the AttorneyGeneral and his predecessor in office. They show their teeth, and, so to speak, are prepared to tear in pieces those who make an attack on any one connected with the law. I have no objection to lawyers, and I must say that I have never seen a body of men stand more firmly together than do the lawyers in this House. One lawyer begs to “ differ from the honorable and learned member “ on a legal question, but when a vote is taken upon it we find the honorable and learned members coming together like oil.

Mr Hughes:

– Is not the honorable member a good trade unionist like myself?

Mr PAGE:

– I certainly am a good trade unionist. The amendment moved by the honorable member for South Sydney was defeated by sixteen votes to fifteen. The honorable member was not satisfied, and after a division had been taken, inquired -

Why was not the Chairman in the Chair? Was it because the Government was in trouble?

Mr Deakin:

– No, because the Speaker had gone.

Mr WATSON:

– The Chairman has always taken the Chair previously in division. I think that we ought to have an explanation as tothe practice when the Chair is filled by a temporary Chairman.

This took place on a Friday afternoon after Mr. Speaker had left to catch his train. The honorable member for Riverina left the chair on that occasion and voted. In that way the Government secured their majority. The honorable member for South Sydney concluded with a declaration that he would take another opportunity to move a reduction. If a salary of £800 per annum was unnecessary then, I fail to see why this increase should be granted to-day. What is to be the maximum salary attaching to the office ?

Mr Hughes:

– This officer has not had an increase during the last seven years.

Mr PAGE:

– And, so far as I am concerned, he shall not have an increase now.

Mr Bowden:

– Surely this officer is entitled to a rise at some time?

Mr PAGE:

– If the finances will permit; but when we have the PostmasterGeneral, as to-day, telling us that there are no funds available for the extension of the facilities of his Department, it is no time to make increases of salary to the extent of £100.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr Poynton:
GREY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– The honorable member will not be in order in discussing that matter.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I desire to refer to it only in an incidental way.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN.The honorable member will have an opportunity of discussing the items which he wishes to discuss when they are under consideration.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– If, sir, the debate is to be limited in the way that you suggest, I shall be debarred from pointing to the grave inequalities which exist. For example, the Comptroller- General of Customs, who has very important duties to discharge, is to receive no increase whatever. Surely his duties are as responsible as are those of the Parliamentary Draftsman ?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I should think so; seeing that he receives about £500 ayear more for his services.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr J H CATTS:

– This is not a matter for the Government. I shall put the question again ; but I cannot allow further discussion.. .

Question - -That the item “ Secretary and Parliamentary Draftsman, £900,” be reduced by £100 - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 9

NOES: 24

Majority … … 15

AYES

NOES

Amendment negatived.

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
Darwin

– I move -

That the item, “ Secretary and Parliamentary Draftsman, £900,” be reduced by£50.

– Good. But it seems to me that increases go chiefly to those who are subservient to Ministers ; that there is an element of “creep.” I want our officers to stand erect, with their chests thrown out, like ancient Greek statues, instead of trembling before Ministers. If men are entitled to increases, let them get them without having to demean themselves in any way. I do not like the way this thing is done. I have no ill-feeling to wards this officer, who, I believe, is a strong and able man. It is the principle to which I take exception.

Question - That the item “ Secretary and Parliamentary Draftsman, £900,” be reduced by £50 - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 10

NOES: 23

Majority …. … 13.

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Mr PAGE:
Maranoa

.- I wish to draw attention to the fact that in the last division not one of the Devil’s brigade voted on this side of the House.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Division 18 (Crown Solicitor’s Office), £3,408.

Amendment (by Mr. McDougall) put -

That the item, “ Crown Solicitor, £1,000,” be reduced by£50.

The Committee divided.

AYES: 10

NOES: 22

Majority … … 12

In division -

AYES

NOES

The CHAIRMAN:

– I see that the honorable member for Macquarie is leaving the chamber. He must not do so.

Mr CARR:

– I desire to make a personal explanation. I had paired with the honorable member for Maribyrnong, and was under the impression that, as long as I left the chamber before tellers were appointed, no objection could be taken. I was leaving when you, Mr. Chairman, told me that I must remain.

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Proposed vote agreed to.

– In view of the plea of the Prime Minister and of the honorable member for Darling Downs, I shall not press my proposal, in the hope that the criticism to which the item has been subjected will induce their Honours to adopt a Jeffersonian simplicity in the matter of their travelling arrangements.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Proposed vote agreed to.

Division 20 (Court of Conciliation and. Arbitration), £1,215, agreed to.

Department of Home Affairs.

Division 21 (Administrative Staff),

£11,135.

Mr PAGE:
Maranoa

– In this division an increase of £100 is proposed in the salary of the Secretary to the Department of Home Affairs. My opinion of that Department is well known. I regard it in the same light as I would view the fifth wheel of a coach. It is bound up with bundles and bundles of red tape. It is the circumlocution Department.

Mr Mahon:

– No. I used to think so, but I do not hold that view now.

Mr PAGE:

– The present Minister has not filled his office sufficiently long to become familiar with the practices of the Department. Let me just relate astory in connexion with a proposed expenditure of £8 on behalf of the Defence Department. That amount was required for the painting and re-canvassing of some targets in Queensland. Application was made to the Defence Department, which agreed to the repairs being undertaken. The matter was then referred to the Department of Home Affairs, and Colonel Owen sent it on to the State Department in Queensland for a report. Later on an officer was sent from Toowoomba to inspect the target. He forwarded a report to the Works Department in Queensland, recommending that the work should be undertaken. That report was again forwarded to the Departmentof Home Affairs in

Melbourne, its transit occupying no less a period than four months. It was then found that there was a discrepancy in the recommendation of the officer who reported upon the work. Accordingly, the report was returned to Queensland where it remained pigeon-holed in the office at Brisbane for six weeks. At the end of that time a fresh officer was sent to report upon the condition of the targets, but by this time the vote for the purpose of repairing them had lapsed, so that the work has not yet been carried out. In the face of facts like these, we are asked to increase the salary of the head of this red-tape Department by £100. Personally, I should like to see the Department wiped out of existence. God knows what useful purpose it serves. It has simply resulted in the creation of positions for public servants and in the appointment of an extra Minister. Who knows better the requirements of the Defence Department than that Department itself? When the honorable member for Darling Downs was Minister of Home Affairs, he wished to bring under the Department as many services as he possibly could.

Mr Groom:

– As for instance?

Mr PAGE:

– The Meteorological Department and the Quarantine Department. He affirmed that the Department of Home Affairs was the most important in the Commonwealth. He desired that the Commonwealth should be bound up with that red tape which he was accustomed to use with such efficacy.

Mr Groom:

– I am afraid the honorable member is a novelist.

Mr PAGE:

– I wish I were. I move -

That the item, “ Secretary, £900,” be reduced by £100.

Department was established, the Public Service Commissioner graded the office at £850. Parliament, in its wisdom, and according to its right, reduced the amount to £800. This officer was transferred from the service of one of the States, and he did not make much out of the transfer. As I previously said, he did not expect this increase.

Mr Page:

– I wonder at these chapssacrificing themselves for the Commonwealth in this way !

Mr MAHON:

– We all sacrifice a little. I am sure that the ex-Minister of Home Affairs will substantiate everything I have said as to the officer’s capacity.

Mr COON:
Batman

– I wish to draw attention to a very important fact in connexion with these Home Affairs estimates. Last Friday evening’ the Prime Minister, speaking at a banquet, stated that the policy of protection had been beneficial to Australia, and that it was in consequenceof the policy carried out bv the honorable member for Ballarat that the country was able to congratulate itself on having a good’ year. One would have thought such a declaration would have been followed up bv a continuation of the same policy. But one of the first Ministerial acts of the present Minister of Home Affairs was to call’ for tenders for supplying certain fans for use in the General Post Office, which, it was stipulated, were to come from “thecountry of the honorable gentleman’s birth.

Mr Mahon:

– My birthplace? I never saw the advertisement.

Mr COON:

– Then the honorable gentleman should look after his Department. The advertisement calling for the tendersappeared over his name. Tenders are invited for fans and other articles for theMelbourne General Post Office. Fanssuitable for the purpose are being manufactured in Australia; Parliament has imposed a duty of 25 per cent, upon the imported article, and the party to which the Minister of Home Affairs belongs, declared at the Brisbane Conference that all goods required in Australia should, if possible, be made in Australia. The specification is for a Sirocco fan, and the motive powernecessary to work it is stated. Surely theCommittee will not permit the Minister to call for tenders in such a way as to prevent any Australian manufacturer fromtendering for these fans? Under the specifications provided for in this case, no Australian manufacturer can put in a tender, notwithstanding the fact that fans made in Australia are in use, and can be purchased for £50. less than the imported article. The specification to which I refer reads as follows -

No. 7 Sirocco Fan with capacity of not less than 17,000 cubic feet per minute, with11/2inch water gauge, suction and free delivery requiring motor ofII horse power, giving 450 revolutions per minute.

I venture to say that a better fan can be produced in Australia, which would not require half that power to get the same work out of it. I ask the Minister whether he is prepared to extend the time within which tenders are to he sent in, and to have the specification altered in such a way that an Australian manufacturer can tender for these fans.

Mr BOWDEN:
Nepean

.I think the Minister should consent to an adjournment. It is now 2.30 a.m., and the House will meet again at 10.30 this morning. There are many matters involved in these Estimates which require careful consideration. I agree with the honorable member for Maranoa that there is a good deal of circumlocution in the Home Affairs office which requires to be done away with. The method at present followed in carrying out public works seems to have been devised merely to waste time. The simplest works are not carried out for six or twelve months, and little jobs, involving an expenditure of£25 or £30 which ought to be carried out by the Departments concerned, are handed over to the Home Affairs Department. Plans are sent from the Home Affairs Department to the Works Department of the State, and back to the Department concerned, with a delay of some months in each case. When at last tenders are sent in, they have to go through the same circumlocutory course, and it may take any time from ten months to two years to get the simplest job done. It seems to me that the States Works Departments give precedence to works required to be done for the States Government. Within the last week, I have had five or six letters from the Postal Department, to say that certain plans are being prepared, and that they will be sent to the Home Affairs Department, and that Department will then have to be written to. I have had the same kind of information given to me before.

Mr Mahon:

– There is another Minister in charge now.

Mr BOWDEN:

– I hope the new Minister will be able to do better but I think it is the system, rather than the administration, which is at fault. If works are delayed until after the 30th June in any year, they have then to stand over until the Estimates for the following financial year are dealt with. A new post office is urgently needed in one portion of my electorate, and it is now nearly two years since instructions were given for the preparation of the plan. I believe that a rough sketch plan was drawn up by the Public Works Department in Sydney, in the first instance. It was sent on to the Home Affairs Department, where some alteration’ was suggested in order that it should be brought into harmony with a style of post office buildings adopted by the Department. It went back then to the State Works Department, where it was altered in the way suggested, and it was then sent through the Home Affairs Department to the Postal Department. This Department suggested that sufficient accommodation for the postmaster had not been provided for, and the plan had then to go through the same channels again to be altered to provide for increased accommodation suggested. After it again reached the Department it was proposed that a post office only should be built, and not a residence, as the land was not very extensive and was very valuable, and it was accordingly decided to erect a post office without a residence upon the site for which they paid £10 or £20 a foot, and take a cheaper site in another part of the town for the erection of a residence. Accordingly, new plans were prepared for a. post office without a residence, and, so far as I know, they are somewhere between the State Public Works Department and the Department of Home Affairs, and the Post and Telegraph Department. That sort of thing takes place in connexion with almost every public work.

Progress reported.

page 2697

MANUFACTURES ENCOURAGEMENT BILL

Bill returned from the Senate with amendments.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 3 December 1908, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1908/19081203_reps_3_48/>.

View PDF View XML View in Voyant

House of Representatives 3 December 1908

QUESTION

DUTY ON TISSUE PAPER

Mr JOHNSON:LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr TUDOR:Minister for Trade and Customs · YARRA, VICTORIA · ALP

QUESTION

MONO-RAIL SYSTEM

Mr BAMFORD:HERBERT, QUEENSLAND

Mr BATCHELOR:Minister for External Affairs · BOOTHBY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

QUESTION

DEFENCE STORES BRANCH

Mr JOHNSON:

Mr HUTCHISON:Minister (without portfolio) · HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

QUESTION

SELECT COMMITTEE ON STRIPPER HARVESTERS AND DRILLS

Mr McDONALD:KENNEDY, QUEENSLAND

Mr FISHER:Prime Minister · WIDE BAY, QUEENSLAND · ALP

BUNBURY RIFLE RANGE

Sir JOHN FORREST:SWAN, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr MAHON:Minister for Home Affairs · COOLGARDIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP

Sir John Forrest:

QUESTION

IMMIGRATION RESTRICTION

Dr MALONEY:MELBOURNE, VICTORIA

Mr BATCHELOR:ALP

QUESTION

QUEENSLAND-SOUTH AUSTRALIAN TELEGRAPH CONNEXION

Mr SINCLAIR:MORETON, QUEENSLAND

Mr THOMAS:Postmaster-General · BARRIER, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

QUESTION

AUSTRALIA, NEW ZEALAND, AND PACIFIC ISLANDS : TELEGRAPH CONNEXION

Mr McDOUGALL:WANNON, VICTORIA

Mr FISHER:ALP

QUESTION

PEARL AND BECHE DE MER FISHERIES

Mr BAMFORD:

Mr BATCHELOR:ALP

QUESTION

POST AND TELEGRAPH DEPARTMENT

Mr THOMAS:ALP

Mr FULLER:ILLAWARRA, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr THOMAS:

Mr THOMAS BROWN:CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr THOMAS:

Mr FULLER:

Mr THOMAS:

Mr FULLER:

Mr THOMAS:

Mr FULLER:

Mr THOMAS:

QUESTION

COINAGE OF SILVER

Dr MALONEY:

Mr FISHER:ALP

JOINT LIBRARY COMMITTEE

IMMIGRATION RESTRICTION BILL

QUESTION

ESTIMATES

Mr BOWDEN:Nepean

The CHAIRMAN:

Mr BOWDEN:

Mr Deakin:

Mr BOWDEN:

Mr Batchelor:

Mr BOWDEN:

Mr SAMPSON:Wimmera

Mr Watson:

Mr SAMPSON:

Mr SAMPSON:

Mr SAMPSON:

Dr Liddell:

Mr SAMPSON:

Dr Liddell:

Mr SAMPSON:

Dr Wilson:

Mr SAMPSON:

Mr SAMPSON:

Dr Wilson:

Mr SAMPSON:

Dr Wilson:

House of Representatives
3 December 1908

Mr JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr TUDOR:
Minister for Trade and Customs · YARRA, VICTORIA · ALP

Mr BAMFORD:
HERBERT, QUEENSLAND

Mr BATCHELOR:
Minister for External Affairs · BOOTHBY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

Mr HUTCHISON:
Minister (without portfolio) · HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

Mr McDONALD:
KENNEDY, QUEENSLAND

Mr FISHER:
Prime Minister · WIDE BAY, QUEENSLAND · ALP

Sir JOHN FORREST:
SWAN, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr MAHON:
Minister for Home Affairs · COOLGARDIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA · ALP

Dr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA

Mr BATCHELOR:
ALP

Mr SINCLAIR:
MORETON, QUEENSLAND

Mr THOMAS:
Postmaster-General · BARRIER, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr McDOUGALL:
WANNON, VICTORIA

Mr FISHER:
ALP

Mr BATCHELOR:
ALP

Mr THOMAS:
ALP

Mr FULLER:
ILLAWARRA, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr FISHER:
ALP

Mr BOWDEN:
Nepean

Mr SAMPSON:
Wimmera

Mr MATHEWS:
Melbourne Ports

Mr HANS IRVINE:
GRAMPIANS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910

Mr HANS IRVINE:
GRAMPIANS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910

Mr GLYNN:
Angas

Mr CARR:
Macquarie

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906