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House of Representatives
9 December 1907

3^rd Parliament · 2^nd Session

ABSENCE OF MR. SPEAKER
QUESTION
- TEMPORARY EMPLOYES : HOLIDAYS
QUESTION
- TELEPHONE SERVICE, NEWCASTLE
ORDER OF BUSINESS
QUESTION
- INVOICE VALUE OF PIANOS
QUESTION
- PUBLIC SERVANTS: INCREMENTS
QUESTION
- EXCISE TARIFF (AGRICULTURAL MACHINERY) ACT
QUESTION
- POSTAL OFFICIALS : OVERTIME
TARIFF

page 7169

ABSENCE OF MR. SPEAKER

The Clerk acquainted the House that he had been informed of the unavoidable absence of the Speaker.

Mr. Deputy Speaker took the chair at 11 a.m., and read prayers.

page 7169

QUESTION

TEMPORARY EMPLOYES : HOLIDAYS

Mr PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND

– I desire to ask the PostmasterGeneral, without notice, a question in -which the employes in his Department, particularly the temporary employes throughout. the Commonwealth, are interested.’ It appears that the’ officers can get no clear information - the matter is clouded in mystery - and to them the rulings of the Minister are as clear as mud. I desire to know to what holidays temporary employes are entitled, and whether they are paid for them; and if they are not paid for. holidays, will the’ Minister see that they are allowed to work on all holidays except Christmas Day and Good Friday ?

Mr MAUGER:
Postmaster-General · MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA · Protectionist

– If the honorable member will give notice of the question, I shall- give him full particulars to-morrow morning. I think ‘I am correct in saying that all temporary hands are paid for their proclaimed holidays in exactly the same way as are regular employes.

– That Bill requires the assent of both Houses, whereas 1 am now speaking of a Bill which has passed both Houses, and in which only verbal amendments have to be considered. I do not see upon the paper any other measure that needs mention.

Mr McWilliams:

– Why not pick out those Bills which have a chance of passing?

Mr DEAKIN:

– I think there is a chance of passing those named.

page 7170

QUESTION

INVOICE VALUE OF PIANOS

Mr JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES

– But for the fact we are likely to reach the item of pianos today I should have given notice of the following question, seeing that it is rather a long one. The question is as follows -

Is the Minister aware of the following facts, and, if not, will he cause inquiry to be made into them and communicate the result to the House before a vote is taken on the duties to be placed on pianos -

That the Customs returns for the several States show no appreciable decline in the average invoice value of German pianos imported, except in New South Wales?

That the decline as shown for New South Wales amounts to about £7 per piano, i.e., from £23 in 1901, to a little more than£16 in 1906, and is accompanied by an exceptional increase in the number of pianos alleged to have been imported ?

That on these facts being pointed out to the Acting Comptroller-General, this officer unhesitatingly expressed the opinion that a blunder had been made, and . that the return for New South Wales was erroneous.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– I think the information for which the honorable member is asking, might very well be ascertained on the item in Committee of Ways and Means. It is anticipated that that item will be reached to-day, and the question can be discussed then.

Mr Johnson:

– I think the information is necessary to enable us to discuss the item.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– So far as the honorable member has read - I do not know what is to follow - he appears to be going beyond the ordinary form of a question.

Mr JOHNSON:

-I had not quite finished. It will be seen that I am referring to erroneous statistics that have been furnished, and which ought to be corrected before we go into Committee on the item. My question proceeds -

That on investigation this was confirmed, and that the Customs Department has now ascertained that no decline has taken place in the average invoice value of pianos imported in New South Wales, and consequently that no decline has taken place in the average value of pianos imported into the Commonwealth as a whole.

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

– The honorable member must see that he is going beyond the ordinary form of a question.

Mr Johnson:

– Very well, I shall deal with the question on the ‘ item in Committee of Ways and Means.

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
Minister for Trade and Customs · EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

– The honorable member for Coolgardie asked a question in reference ‘to this matter some four or five days ago. and this morning I forwarded him a reply to the effect that a mistake had been made - as stated by the Acting Comptroller-General of Customs - in that only an estimate had been given of the number of pianos imported into New South Wales, instead of the actual number. I have requested the officials in Sydney to furnish me with the most definite particularsthat it is possible to obtain, and immediately I receive these, I will supply the information to honorable members. But, undoubtedly a mistake has been made, so that honorable members need not base their remarks in reference to the duty upon pianos upon the figures which have been supplied.

page 7171

QUESTION

PUBLIC SERVANTS: INCREMENTS

Mr POYNTON:
GREY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– I wish to ask the Prime Minister whether the statement which appears in the newspapers of to-day that arrangements have been made to pay the automatic increments due to public servants before Christmas, is correct?

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

– As promised several days ago, I have had a consultation with the Treasurer, and he now informs me that he intends to make arrangements for the payment of the increments referred to before Christmas.

page 7171

QUESTION

EXCISE TARIFF (AGRICULTURAL MACHINERY) ACT

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
DARWIN, TASMANIA

asked the Minister of Trade and Customs, upon notice -

What is the policy of the Government, and what is the intention of the Ministry as to the manufacturers of harvesters who have failed to observe the Commonwealth law as to Excise, and who are defying the same while receiving the benefit of the Customs duties on agricultural machinery imported?
’ Does the Minister intend to enforce the law without fear or favour?
Will the Government consider the advisability of immediately introducing legislation in order to suspend the imposition of duties so long as the manufacturers of harvesters defy the law ?
What does the Government propose to do as regards the employes who have been spending their money in upholding the Commonwealth legislation ?
Does the Government intend to allow the men to lose this money ?
What are the intentions of the Government as to reimbursing the employes in the agricultural implement trade, who have incurred heavy expenses in defending Commonwealth legislation ?
What steps are the Government taking to see that the law is being carried out?

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
Protectionist

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow -

The policy of the Government will be the subject of a memorandum to be laid on the table immediately. Ministers are not yet aware of any defiance of the law.
Yes.
Should manufacturers defy the law, and the present remedies be found insufficient, the Government will consider legislation to amend the defects.
5, and 6. The Government cannot undercake to reimburse litigants on the ground that they are suing under Commonwealth legislation.
The collectors have general instructions, and the necessary papers are in the hands of the Crown Solicitor. There will be no delay in enforcing the law.

page 7171

QUESTION

POSTAL OFFICIALS : OVERTIME

Mr JOHNSON:

asked the PostmasterGeneral, upon notice -

Is it a fact that, although instructions from the Central Office have been issued for arrangements to be made to avoid the necessity for officers working after the official hour, some of the heads of branches in Sydney have since given specific instructions for’ all hands to remain on duty each day from Monday to Friday until 5.30 p.m.?

Mr MAUGER:
Protectionist

– The answer to the honorable member’s question is as follows -

The instructions from the Central Office referred to were that officers of Clerical Branches whose ordinary hours were from 9 a.m. to 4.30 p.m. were not to be required to attend on any day later than 5.30 p.m., Monday to Friday, or 1 p.m. on Saturday, except in cases of extreme urgency, and with the express’ approval of the Deputy Postmaster-General.

The authority for detaining officers until s-3° p.m. is contained in the Public Service Regulations. Only time worked after 5.30 p.m.. is regarded as “overtime” under those Regulations.

page 7171

TARIFF

In Committee of Ways and Means (Consideration resumed from 6th December, 7de* page 7168):

Division XIII. - Paper and Stationery.

Item 352. Paper, viz. : -

Manufactures of, Framed or Unframed, having advertisements thereon, including price lists and trade catalogues, and all printed or lithographed matter to be used for purposes of advertising, per lb., 6d.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

Sir JOHN QUICK:
Bendigo

– I point out to the Committee that the A section of the Tariff Commission suggested that price lists and catalogues printed specially for Australian houses to advertise goods sold in the Commonwealth should be liable to this duty. Tha* is a limitation. _ Mr. Mcwilliams. - Does it mean that if’ an English house has a large branch in Australia, it will be compelled to get its printing done here? .,

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– The recommendation speaks for itself.

Most of the Master Printers’ Associations of Australia had no objection to British and foreign manufacturers’ price lists and catalogues being admitted free of duty so long as the same privilege was not accorded to Australian manufacturers attempting to get their work done abroad.

That is the evil j printing done abroad for Australian houses is brought here to compete with local printers, but the local printers do not object to British and foreign merchants being allowed to print their own price lists and catalogues, and bring them in for commercial purposes. Consequently, I suggest to the Treasurer that he should add after the word “Catalogues” the words “printed for Australian houses to advertise goods sold in Australia.”

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

– I think the amendment covers such cases.

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– It must be made clear, because the Customs have hitherto had great trouble in dealing with such matters. These words were actually suggested by a Customs expert to remove difficulties and ambiguities, and to make the administration of the Tariff easier.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– I think that my amendment meets the suggestion of the honorable member for Bendigo, when read in conjunction with an amendment which I intend to move subsequently, and which I will now read - 352B. Catalogues, show-cards, or pictures used by or alluding to the goods of any manufacturer or producer not having a special place of business in Australia, free.

Sir John Quick:

– That covers the case.

Mr MCWILLIAMS:
Franklin

– - I do not think that the Treasurer’s amendment would meet the cas.e. I can quite see a very -wide distinction between an Australian firm sending its printing out- side Australia, and an English firm having branches in Australia, and desiring to import its own printing. Take the case of Sutton’s, the well-known seed merchants. They have an establishment in practically every town in the Commonwealth.’ According to the Treasurer’s amendment, Sutton’s seed catalogue would be taxed on coming into Australia. I do not think that that is the intention of the Minister, and I am sure that it is not the intention pf the Committee. The Master Printers had no intention that’ the catalogues of large English firms, having branch houses all over Australia, and sending their catalogues out to advertise their business, should be taxed, and I think that that should be made perfectly clear. The Treasurer’s amendment would mean that any English firm having an establishment in Melbourne or Sydney would not be able to bring in its catalogues for distribution without paying duty. Personally, I do not desire to impose any taxation at all on catalogues advertising such goods as machinery, books, and seeds, I do not think that this is a source .from which we really want to draw revenue. The duty can give no employment to our own people, and if is good policy to admit catalogues and price lists free.

Mr POYNTON:
Grey

.- I have received a letter from an advertising firm in Adelaide who point out that these duties work out at 100 per cent. The letter is from Fred C. Powell, street car advertising agent, and agent for calendars, novelties, show-cards, and signs. The writer says -

There is no discrimination between the fully finished goods intended to advertise the foreign made article, and the partially finished material intended to be finished here and to be used in advertising Australian made goods.

He goes on to say -

I have employed considerable labour in the finishing of these goods, desiring to have as much work as possible done locally. Therefore, if the Tariff is not made to discriminate as I have suggested between matter with advertisements and matter without advertisements, it will pay better to import them wholly finished.

I have also been requested by the Public Libraries Board in South Australia to say that whatever duty may be fixed on these lines, there should be a proviso to the following effect -

Except when imported for use in Public Libraries, Museums, or Art Galleries ; in which case they should be free of duty. I think that suggestion is worthy of the attention of the Treasurer. I have received a second letter from the firm to which I have previously referred, in which the writer points out that - the duty under the old Tariff, 3d. per lb., or 25 per cent., whichever was the higher, was often, at the former collection, as high a rate as 50 per cent, on the value, and 6d.. per lb. is 100 per cent. - too heavy a tax on the Australian “manufacturer who uses advertising matter. Nowadays it is imperative that advertisements be of a very attractive character, and whilst it is possible that a few of the larger firms can have matter of their own special design, this is not possible for those in a smaller way.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

. -I think that the honorable member would do well to make a separate paragraph of his amendment.

Sir William Lyne:

– So do I.

Mr Poynton:

– Very well, I am agreeable to do that.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I presume that the object ofthese excessive duties, amounting, as the honorable member for Grey has said, to too per cent., is to exclude newspaper supplements and such like material, as well as to compel our business people to have their printing done locally. I do not know why we should be at such pains to make people do so, and I say this with no desire to belittle our own printeries. On the contrary, I hold that we ought tosupport them : but I do not think that we should eventually help them by completely shutting out this material, representing, as it does the skill, enterprise and up-to-dateness of the world.

Mr McWilliams:

– The supplements come in blocks.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– They come in lithographed. The old duties, to my mind, were sufficient even from the point of view of a protectionist. I am quite sure that magazines will also be taxed under the amendment moved by the Treasurer, which includes the words, “ unframed, having advertisements thereon.”

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

– Magazines are dealt with in paragraph c.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Is the Treasurer going to strike out that paragraph when we reach it, since we deal with magazines in paragraph a?

Mr Fisher:

– The insertion of the letters “n.e.’i.” would coverthe honorable member’s objection.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

-The Treasurer may propose to cover magazines by this paragraph and to exclude them from later ones. Magazines and periodicals would certainly be covered by the words “unframed, having advertisements thereon,” unless we took steps to exclude them. If our people insist upon going to the other end of the world for some particular article or paper, we should not prevent their doing so, provided that they are prepared to pay a reasonably heavy penalty. But is not a duty of 100 per cent. altogether too high? I have no sympathy with those who seek abroad what can be reasonably done for them here. I have no patience with those who patronize every one but their own people ; but my experience is that a good, stiff, hide-bound protectionist always reaches out with both hands for a cheap thing wherever he can get it. That being so, this proposal will fall quite as heavily upon the protectionist section of the community as it will upon any other. Those who clamour most loudly for duties upon foreign goods are the first to use them if they find it to their advantage to do so. Only the other day, when we were discussing the confectionery duties, it came out that manufacturers of confectionery in Melbourne, who were clamouring for high duties, were using Nestles milk, and not Australian milk, in their manufacture.

Mr Coon:

– That is not in order.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Certainly not. That should only be allowed in regard to the other fellow. Without the slightest desire to encourage the sending away to other parts of the world for anything which can be reasonably done here, it seems to me we should impose a sufficiently high penalty if we adhered to the old duties. I intend to propose that we should substitute the duties under the old Tariff for those now submitted.

Mr KNOX:
Kooyong

.- I do not think that anything created more irritation in connexion with the administration of the old Tariff than did the influx of these price lists. As honorable members are aware they accumulated in tons in the Post Office. The position I take up is very much that which is embraced by the concrete amendment suggested by the honorable member for Bendigo. We should prevent local firms sending abroad to get their advertisements printed for them, since we can command sufficient skill and ability in the Commonwealth to meet all reasonable requirements in this direction. But to impose a heavy charge upon the admission of trade catalogues which reach us from all parts of the world would be to restrict the information required by the ordinary trader, the need for which has been felt so very much. The comprehensive letters “n.e.i.” appear much too frequently in the amended proposal of the Minister.

The amendment suggested by the honorable member for Bendigo would certainly be much more definite, and the Minister would be well advised if he accepted it. I wish to emphasize what has been said by the honorable member for Grey with respect to catalogues for public libraries and galleries. I am glad that the authorities of these institutions communicated with so influential a. member of the Committee. They have also communicated with me. The authorities of the public libraries in Sydney, Brisbane, and Adelaide, as well as in Melbourne, join in a representation that in accordance with the custom, followed without exception in every country in the world, information of this character intended for the benefit of the public should be admitted free. I suggest to the honorable member for Grey that it would be well for him to move the insertion of some exclusive provision which would embrace the whole of the items to which he has referred.

Mr McWilliams:

– The Minister has agreed to that.

Mr KNOX:

– I am glad to hear it. I was not aware of it. In regard to the other matter, I hope the Committee will be guidedby the principle that all work required by our own people should, if possible, be done by our own people, whilst the admission of catalogues, giving necessary information to traders and business people, should not be restricted as was the case in the administration of the old Tariff.

The CHAIRMAN:

– Where does the honorable member for Grey desire to introduce his amendment?

Mr POYNTON:
Grey

.- I understand that it is the wish of the Committee that a new paragraph to meet what I desire should be inserted. I think I can leave that to the Minister.

Sir JOHN QUICK:
Bendigo

– The Minister might cut this debate short by accepting the suggestion of the Tariff Commission and including an exemption provision to read in this way -

Price lists and trade catalogues not specially printed for Australian houses to advertise goods to be sold in the Commonwealth - free.

That would prevent any restriction of trade circulars, and, I think would meet with the approval of the majority of the Committee.

Mr Salmon:

– Perhaps the Minister would say what his amendment is.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– I am afraid thatthe amendment suggested by the honorable memberforBendigo involves a repetition of part of my amendment. What I propose is that the following should take the place of paragraph a: -

Manufactures of, framed, including the weight of the frame, or unframed having advertisements thereon, including price lists n.e.i., trade catalogues n.e.i., show cards n.e.i., posters and all printed or lithographed matter, pictures n.e.i., and posters of all kinds used or intended to be used for advertising purposes, also all printed bags and cartons.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– That would include magazines - “or unframed, having advertisements thereon.”

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– No; they are dealt with specially in paragraph c. There cannot be two paragraphs including magazines. The honorable member for Bendigo suggests a separate paragraph -

– But I know something about it, because a few days ago I heard what was to be done.

Sir William Lyne:

– [ am afraid that the honorable member has been listening to a lot of tittle-tattle.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– I am afraid that it is the Minister who listens to tittle-tattle ; I always take care to sift information which I receive. Whether the’ Minister’s intention is .or is not what I have stated, the effect will be an increase of the duty on strawboard, and the strawboard boxmakers who complain’ so bitterly about the increased duty on their raw material will be protected by a prohibitive duty.

Sir William Lyne:

– Does the honorable member say that this duty is imposed for the unworthy purpose he indicates ?

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– I have already said that a few clays ago I heard what the intention was, though I do not suggest that the Minister had any knowledge of the matter. However, I leave the question of intention aside, and merely point to what will be the effect, lt may be thought that under this arrangement the strawboard boxmakers will have nothing to complain of ; but, as a matter of fact, their trade will be seriously affected, because, as I said before, cardboard boxes are used only when the price is close to that of ordinary paper packages. I move -

That the amendment be amended by leaving out the words “ also all printed bags and cartons.”

– In order to limit debate, and at the suggestion of some honorable members, I ask leave to amend my amendment by omitting from it the words “ also all printed bags and.”

Amendment of the amendment, by leave, amended accordingly.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– The Honorable member for Parramatta stated that he heard, a few days ago, that this arrangement was to be made. Here is a letter written on the 26th September last -

We have the honour to submit to you the recommendations of the Master Printers’ Association of Victoria, The Paper Manufacturers, The Cardboard Box Makers, The Paper Bag Makers, The Manufacturing Stationers, the Paper merchants of Victoria,, in reference to items affecting Paper, Printing and Stationery, in your proposed Tariff. We indorse the Government’s proposals with the inclusion of “ Printed Bags and Cartons,” with the exception of Magazines. We do not think that Magazines would be produced in Australia, so we do not see the necessity for this duty, especially is the case with “ Trade and Scientific Journals.” We suggest therefore that clause c should read “ Printed matter n.e.i. including printed bags and cartons (except newspapers registered for transmission through the post as magazines), 6d. per lb.”

– It seems that all we have to do is to register, to crystallize, the decisions of interested persons. I do not pretend to know very much about a number of these items, and therefore I am always glad to get information from any quarter. But when we are furnished with a circular stating that this,, that and the other have been agreed to at a private meeting, and that, therefore, there is an end of the matter, I venture to suggest to honorable members that this Parliament has a higher function to perform than the mere registration of decrees which have been issued outside. We are npt here to put on the statute-book some ukase issued by interested individuals, but to exercise our “discretion, and to make the best possible arrangement in the interests of those who consume the goods which are made dutiable with so much alacrity, and with so little compunction as regards the consequences to their pockets.

Question - That the words “and cartons” proposed to be left out stand part of the amendment (Mr. Dugald Thomson’s amendment of Sir William Lyne’s amendment) - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 23

NOES: 20

Majority … … 3

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative Amendment of the amendment negatived. Mr. MAHON (Coolgardie) [12.56].- I move -

That Hie amendment be amended by inserting after the .word “cartons” the words “and calendars anil almanacs n.e.i.”

I move this amendment because I do not think there ought to be any difference in the treatment of calendars and almanacs, and that extended to the other goods mentioned in the item.

Amendment of the amendment agreed to.

Amendment (by Mr. Joseph Cook) proposed -

Thar the amendment be amended by inserting after the letters “n.e.i.” just inserted the words “ framed, ad val., 25 per cent.”

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– Under another item the duties on frames are 30 per cent, and 25 per cent. I shall not object to those duties in this instance. If the honorable member for Parramatta will move that the duties in this case be the same as on ordinary frames, I will agree to it.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Very well, I will do that, and ask that mv amendment be amended accordingly.

Amendment of the amendment amended accordingly.

Sir JOHN QUICK:
Bendigo

.This item deals exclusively with advertising pictures. The other item, in which frames are included, relates to pictures not necessarily of an advertising character.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– This is the same item on which the A section of the Tariff Commission recommended a duty of 25 per cent.

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– We recommended a duty of 25 per cent, on picture frames.

Sitting suspended from 1 to 2.1 j p.m.*

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– I ‘ cannot agree to the amendment of the amendment as it stands since the amendment covers not only the framing, but the advertisement within it, and the adoption of the honorable member’s proposal would make the paragraph ridiculous. I should have been willing to accept the amendment had I been able to do so.

Amendment of the amendment negatived.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– How does the Treasurer propose to cure the anomaly that frames elsewhere are taxed at 35 per cent., while he proposes under this paragraph to make them dutiable at 6d. per lb.

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

– No; it is only the j.aper that is taxed.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Are we to have two rates? I did not press for a division on my last amendment of the amendment, because I wished the Minister to cure the anomaly. I move -

That the amendment be amended by inserting after the letters “n.e.i.” just inserted, the words “per lb., 3d.”

Question put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 12

NOES: 0

……. 33

Majority

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment of the amendment negatived.

Mr POYNTON:
Grey

.- I wish now to move that these goods be dutiable’ at 30 per cent.

The CHAIRMAN:

– The honorable member has allowed the matter to go too far to now move an ad valorem duty. I divided the last question: submitted in order to give every honorable member an opportunity to vote for a percentage duty if he pleased; but the Committee has now decided that the duty shall not be an ad valorem duty.

Mr POYNTON:

– Since lunch I indicated that I wished to test the opinion of the Committee as to whether an ad valorem duty instead of the proposed fixed dutyshould not be adopted.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I proposed 30 per cent, and 25 per cent.

Mr POYNTON:

– I did not understand the honorable member to do so.

The CHAIRMAN:

– I divided the question. I did not put the whole of the honorable member’s amendment, in order not to deprive other honorable members of an opportunity to move a further amendment. The Committee has, -however, now distinctly decided not to adopt an ad valorem duty, and it is therefore impossible for trie to accept the amendment suggested by the honorable member.

Mr MAHON:
Coolgardie

.- I agree that the duty should be a fixed one at a certain rate per lb., because of the difficulty which the officials of the Customs Department would have in ascertaining the value of imported printed matter. I think, however, that a duty of 4d. per lb. would give ample protection to the local industry.

Sir William Lyne:

– Oh, no.

Mr MAHON:

– The Treasurer must see that a duty of 4d. per lb. would amount to an increase of about 33 per cent, on the duty imposed under the old Tariff, and with landing charges, freight, insurance, packing and so on, would give a very y substantial protective encouragement to the printing industry in Australia. The Treasurer would be well advised to accept my suggestion, .which, I feel sure, will commend itself to the common-sense of honorable members generally. I am certain that if the Minister would fake expert advice, every unbiased and impartial printer would admit that a duty of 4d. per lb. on printed matter of this kind would give ample protection, and would be all that could reasonably be expected by those concerned in this industry. I move -

That the amendment be amended by inserting after the letters “n.e.i.” just inserted the words “per lh., 4d.”

Question put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 21

NOES: 27

Majority 6

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative. Amendment of the amendment negatived.

Amendment (by Mr. Johnson) negatived -

That the amendment be amended by inserting after the letters “n.e.i.” just inserted the words “ per lb., 5d.”

Amendment, as amended (Sir William

Lyne’s), agreed to.

Paragraph, as amended, agreed to.

Mr MALONEY:
Melbourne

.- I wish to make an explanation in reference to a dispute I have had with some one who lobbied me in Parliament House. I was lobbied here by Mr. McDougall, of Sands and McDougall, and I think it is only right that honorable members should understand what occurred. Briefly. I had simply been told that he could not make the very finest qualities of coated boards, and when he came here I asked him - and it was the only question I asked him - if any evidence had been given before the Tariff Commission, and whether he would read it and let me know if he had a different view. Oh the following day I received from him this letter, which is the most insulting letter I ever received from any one in my life.

Mr Liddell:

– These men ought, not to be admitted inside the building.

Mr MALONEY:

– When I was a clerk in the Colonial Bank, Mr. McDougall, ae the representative of a big firm, impressed me greatly, and we were very friendly ; but I do not think I can be friendly with him after this letter. He has written me as follows : - 365 Collins-street,

Melbourne, 7th December, 1907. Hon. Dr. Maloney, M.P., Parliament House, Melbourne. Dear Dr. Maloney,

I was under the impression that you were returned as the member for Melbourne as a protectionist. You therefore very much surprised me yesterday when you said that you would oppose the proposed duty of 25 per cent, on surface-coated board.

said no such thing.

At present the duty on plain and coated Boards is the same. We now only ask for a protection of 15 per cent. We have invested a large sum in up-to-date plant, occupying one whole floor of our factory, and employ a large number of men in the production of _ these boards, and have continued their production in the hope that when the Tariff should be revised we would get .the protection that we are entitled to. Should we not receive that protection we will be compelled to close that department and throw all those hands out of work. It is sad to think that that result should be brought about by you, a supposed protectionist. How can you justify your action?

YoUrs faithfully, jas. MCDOUGALL.

Perhaps if I ‘ read my reply it will be clearer than anything I can say. But I wish it to be understood that I have respect and regard for any man who is a free-trader, so long as he honestly holds that opinion, and if I use the term in what I write, I only do so in the course of my answer to the insult and slur that has been thrown upon me as the honorable member for Melbourne -

Sir,

Yours of the 7th inst. to hand. Your impression is correct. I am a protectionist. My political faith has been, and will ever be, publicly declared. I do no skulking, doubledealing, or underhand scheming. My votes embody my principles. I point to the votes I have given.

But I am surprised, after lobbying me at Parliament House, you should now write me - and such a letter - a letter of craft and wile and not straightforwardness. You threaten to turn men out of work - with what object? - to frighten me !

You know the thought that “ Houseless heads and unfed sides “ of my fellow men and women would break my heart, if I were directly or indirectly the cause. You care nothing about them. Gain is your object. To put money in your purse you try to frighten me by conjuring before my eyes workless men and hungry children. You want money only, and I am to be but a tool in your hands - and you threaten men and women and children to influence me to vote rs you desire.

Ought I not admire you? Noble character, disinterested humanitarian !

Yet you are the man - you lover of protection and of workmen - who did your utmost, who hesitated at no expedient, to oust me from Parliament House and put in - who, a protectionist? No - a free-trader. Yes - wealth went to wealth. The wealthy McDougall supported the. wealthy Sir M. McEacharn. Where was the poor workmen then?

Now carry out your threat to dismiss your workmen if you dare. I believe that manhood and womanhood in this country will say you are not the master of their lives - that you are not as God - that to you they need not pray “ Give us this day our daily work that we mayearn the bread of sweat.”

It proves conclusively to my soul’s satisfaction that the policy .of the Labour Party is the right one - the right of the man to live without being at the beck and call of his fellow man, because that man has money. With tenfold earnestness will I advocate a policy of nationalization of industries, so that the McDougalls may become as Dodos - extinct.

The fact that Sir M. McEacharn was one of the four who voted against “White Australia,” and who was then an acknowledged free-trader, shows me it is not of your workmen you are thinking - black or slave does not signi’fy to you.

To you your men are machinery - instruments of money-making. To me they are men with God-created souls and “rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.”

When the duties are considered, you may rest assured I will think of my duty to my fellowmen and to my country, Australia, and your threats will not operate’ on my mind.

After my experience of your lobbying, and of your letter, I deem it my duty to prevent your misunderstanding my words, or misrepresenting me, and all future communications, if any, must be in writing.

Mr WILKS:
Dalley

– I do not think this incident ought to be allowed to pass unnoticed, although the highlycoloured reply of the honorable member for Melbourne may excite a little laughter. Right through the Tariff that sort of thing has been the experience not only of the honorable member for Melbourne, but of myself and others. We have been waylaid by importers’ agents and manufacturers’ agents. The one side is as bad as the other. . I gave short shrift to them both, for I have refused on all occasions to go into matters with them. It is only right that the Government should now intervene. The Tariff Commission sat for the purpose of getting all the necessary information from interested parties, and it should not have been necessary for the corridors of Parliament to be crowded with persons desiring to make representations. This sort of thing has been going on throughout the discussion of the Tariff, and to-day it is more marked than ever. The honorable member for Melbourne has taken up the right position, but he has not done so a bit too soon. The honorable member for Lang mentioned Mr. Beale’ s name. Although’ that gentleman is a manufacturer in a large way in my electorate, I have treated him in the same way as I have treated the importers’ agents. 1 only wish that every other member would do the same. Of course, those interested have a right to make representations, but they can approach honorable members by circular, instead of personally. Only to-day I received a large sheaf of circulars by post. The honorable member for Melbourne has done the best public action that we have had since the Tariff has been under consideration. Only a fortnight ago Mr. Speaker was asked to intervene against the placing of exhibits in this building. If interested parties want to make exhibits, let them hire a place in Collins-street for the purpose. When the last Tariff was being considered, I said that’ we appeared to be threatened with the American system of lobbying, but if the present condition of things is going to continue, what goes on in America will be only a circumstance to it. No member, whether a free-trader or protectionist, should be intimidated as to his votes. Importers’ agents and manufacturers’ agents should use the one channel only - by letter - and should not come to this House to make personal representations when their interests are at stake.

Sir JOHN QUICK (Bendigo) [2.53J.- I desire to propose a new paragraph. I think that this is the proper place to provide for the exemption of price lists and trade catalogues not printed for Australian houses. Adopting the form of the exemption suggested by the Tariff Commission, I move -

That the following new paragraph be inserted : - “ aa. On and after I oth December, 1907, Price lists and trade catalogues not printed for Australian houses to advertise poods sold in the Commonwealth - free.”

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– When the honorable member for Melbourne rose, I rose also with the intention of submitting a comprehensive amendment, as follows -

Catalogues, show-cards, o’r pictures issued by, or referring to the goods of, any manufacturer or producer not having an established place of business in Australia, and all printed matter and photographs, the property of any public institution, and intended for deposit or exhibition therein.

The latter part has been framed by the Comptroller-General to meet the suggestion of the honorable member for Grey.

Mr Harper:

– Is it intended to make those things free?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– Yes.. The paragraph was framed after the discussion, . which took place this morning.

Mr Harper:

– Is it to enable foreign houses to advertise their own goods in this country if they have no branch here?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– Yes. . The amendment moved by the honorable member for Bendigo is not so comprehensive as the one which I have outlined.

Sir John Quick:

– I will withdraw my amendment for the present.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) proposed - l lint the following new paragraph be inserted : - “ aa. On and after 10th December, 1907, Catalogues, show-cards, or pictures issued by, or referring to the goods of. any manufacturer or producer not having an established place of business in Australia, and all printed matter and photographs, the properly of any public institution, and intended for deposit or exhibition therein - free.”

Mr POYNTON:
Grey

.- I am afraid that the Minister’s amendment does not cover all that I suggested, such as works of art, including sculptures–

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

– They come later on. I believe they are free now, as works of art.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– Apparently price lists are not included in the amendment moved by the Minister, although I understood him to say that thev were.

Sir William Lyne:

– They are covered by the word “ catalogues,” according to the practice of the Department.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– I am not. sure that they are. .

Sir William Lyne:

– If the honorable member desires me to include “ price lists.” I will do so.

Mr Mathews:

– We do not. desire to collect the duty, but rather that the -work shall be done here.

Mr POYNTON:

– I have already explained the reason why the Sydney firm of printers refused to renew their’ contract. I move -

That the words “ and on and after 10th December, 1907, per lb., 3d.,” be added.

This will make the duty is. od. on .each volume of Wise’s Directory, and with that, I should say, the Committee, with all the greed there is for duties, ought to be satisfied. The publishers do not desire to be at the mercy of a local printer, when the main point is to have the directory issued at a certain time.

Mr Sampson:

– And that is to be accomplished by having the printing done at the other end of the world !

Mr POYNTON:

– The publishers of Wise’s Directory spend ^10,000 per annum in wages .in Australia, and of the total expenditure, as I have said, only one-fourth is represented by the printing.

Mr ATKINSON:
Wilmot

– I can understand the anxiety of the honorable member for Melbourne Ports to have the whole of this wark dene in Victoria.

Mr Mathews:

– Not in Victoria, but in Australia.

Sir William Lyne:

– I think such work is mostly done in Sydney.

Mr ATKINSON:

– Then I shall substitute Australia for Victoria. The publishers of Wise’s Directory distribute ^10,000 in wages in Australia, and if a duty of 6d. per lb. - renders the enterprise unprofitable that distribution will cease, because the book will not be published.

Mr Storrer:

– Some one else will bring out a directory.

Mr ATKINSON:

– No one else, so far, seems to have been able to bring out a satisfactory directory of the kind.

Mr Mauger:

– This directory is not satisfactory.

Mr ATKINSON:

– Perhaps it is not so satisfactory as it ought to be, but it is the best we have had up to now. The publishers have endeavoured to get the printing done in Australia, but have failed, simply because the printers require, perhaps, nine months to do work which is required in three months. Under the circumstances, I think that the publishers are not to be blamed for going abroad for their printing ; and I have much pleasure in supporting the amendment of the honorable member for Grey.

Mr MATHEWS:
Melbourne Ports

– Of course, we may take it that the whole of the information supplied by the honorable member for Grey is his own compilation - that he did not receive it by means of a circular from the publishers, or that their representatives did not follow the. example of manufacturers, and bring the information here.

Mr Atkinson:

– Can the honorable member refute the information?

Mr MATHEWS:

– I am not endeavouring to do so, but merely pointing out that apparently importers as well as manufacturers can supply all the information necessary to promote their own interests. We have been told that philanthropic publishers spend £10,000 per annum in wages in Australia. I point out, however, that that money is obtained from Australia, before it can be paid as wages. We are told that the imposition of a duty of 3s. 6d. Der volume will stop the circulation of the directory. But can we believe that these publishers would “bite off their nose to spite their face “ ? This is a business run on commercial lines, and while a profit can be made the directory will be issued. Free-traders will admit that if there is any work that can be done in Australia, it is a compilation of a directory of the residents of Australia. Extreme protectionist as I may be regarded, I think I am not asking too much, even from so-called free-traders, when I suggest that publications of this sort ought to be printed here.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– The honorable member for Melbourne Ports expresses satirical anxiety as to whether the information given by the honorable member for Grey has been supplied, or- is his own compilation. If there is any honorable member who has given abundance of supplied information to the Committee, it is the honorable member for Melbourne Ports.

Mr Mathews:

– But I do not condemn the supplying of information - the condemnation comes from honorable members opposite.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– Whence the strength of the satire on the honorable member for. Grey? Those interested by these duties have a perfect right, not by lobbying, but in a. proper way, to place the effects of the duties before honorable members.

Mr Mathews:

– I have been lobbied myself in this matter.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– I* am making no accusation against the honorable member. I do not approve of lobbying ; but those interested have a perfect right to place what information they have before us, if they do so in a proper way ; and on that information honorable members may come to a conclusion. Some protectionist members will not accept any representations, simply because they come from protectionists,, and so with free.trade members in regard to representations from free-traders. They will themselves weigh the arguments advanced on either side. I think that the case put forward upon the. present occasion possesses some strength. The duty proposed is aimed entirely at one individual.

Sir William Lyne:

– Who is that? Mr. DUGALD THOMSON.- It is aimed at the proprietor of Wise’s Directory.

Sir William Lyne:

– What about the other directories?

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– T am aware that some directories are printed in Australia, but Wise’s Directory, though compiled in Australia, is printed in England.

Mr Salmon:

– The honorable member’s objection to the strawboard duty was based upon the fact that only one manufacturer was engaged in the industry. His efforts are now being directed in favour of one person.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– If the honorable member is so “ mixed “ that he associates strawboard and directories, I confess that I have not yet reached that frame of mind. Who is the person to whom he refers?

Mr Salmon:

– Mr. Wise. The honorable member stated .that the protectionist members of the Committee were operating against one importer.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– Is it not within the honorable member’s own- knowledge that threats have been used in this connexion, and that the outcome of those threats is this attempt to compel a particular individual to print his directory in Australia? Mr. Wise says that he has endeavoured to get his directory printed in the Commonwealth, but that the time required for its production would be nine months, and that the information which it contained would thus be stale by the time it was published.

Sir William Lyne:

– How are the other directories printed?

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

- Mr. Wise declares that nine months is the shortest period within which he can get his work printed in Australia. If his statement be accurate, there seems to be some justification for his getting it printed elsewhere. Therefore I shall support the amendment of the honorable member for Grey. I would further point out that we admit other printed books - some of which could be printed in the Commonwealth much more easily than could a directory - free. The issue of a directory is a special class of work. Only a few firms are willing to undertake it, and it is stated they require nine months within which to print it.

Mr Chanter:

– Would it not be better to have this directory printed here 50 that its publisher might revise the proofs?

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– No doubt there are advantages attaching to having it printed here. But when the compiler says that he cannot get the work done in the Commonwealth within a reasonable time, we must pay some attention to his statement. I object to this special attack being made upon one individual.

Mr CROUCH:
Corio

– I understand that a deputation recently waited upon the Minister of Trade and Customs in regard to the publication of Wise’s Directory. Upon that occasion it was stated that the work could not be printed in Australia. That assertion has been repeated by the honorable member for North Sydney, who says that the directory cannot be printed here in less than nine months, which means that it cannot be printed locally at all. The Minister of Trade and Customs promised the members of the deputation that he would make inquiries and ascertain whether the statement to which I have referred is correct. I should like him to give the Committee the result of his inquiries, and to say whether Wise’s Directory can be printed in the Commonwealth within a reasonable period.

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
Monaro - Minister of Trade and Customs · Eden · Protectionist

-~ I recollect the deputation to which the honorable member for Corio has referred. At that deputation conflicting statements were made. Of course, those who were interested in having the work done oversea made out the best case that they could. But to those who have seen the directories that are printed in Australia, it must be obvious that the work can be performed locally. As a matter of fact, a number of printers who waited upon me some time ago pointed out that this work could be done within the Commonwealth at a time when printing work was slack, and that it would thus provide employment for men who would otherwise be idle. I cannot understand the statement that nine months is required to print this directory.

Mr Crouch:

– The Minister does not accept that statement?

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:

– No. I gave the deputation to understand that, as far as possible^ the Government believed in encouraging work to be undertaken locally, in preference to having it performed across the sea.

Mr MAHON:
Coolgardie

.- The duty proposed might be reduced with advantage. I regret that I cannot see my way to support the amendment of the honorable member for Grey. It is idle to contend that the directory to which reference, has been made cannot be printed in Australia with advantage to everybody concerned. I will undertake to say that it can be done by any large firm. If Mr. Wise chose to enter into a contract with any large firm for the production of his directory for a period of five or seven years, I am certain that he could get the work turned out within three months. It is simply a question of paying the necessary price. At the same time, I think that 6d. per lb. is rather too heavy an impost to levy upon directories. Some honorable members have argued that the publications mentioned in paragraph a cannot be produced in Australia to commercial advantage. But certainly directories can. There is nothing elaborate about them. They involve only ordinary plain setting. It is ridiculous to suggest that the publisher can economize time by sending his copy oversea, thus sacrificing six weeks upon the voyage each way.

Mr Chanter:

– He also has to wait for his proofs

Mr MAHON:

– He has either to incur the risk of error or engage some person oversea having some knowledge of Aus.alia to read the proofs very carefully. 1. think that one might search the world vainly in an effort to discover a directory which is printed in other than the country in which it is issued. I was utterly astounded when I learned that Mr. Wise’s directory is printed in London. Apart al together from fiscalism, these books ought: to be printed in the country to which they refer.

Mr Atkinson:

– If they were printed in Australia, would it add to the employment here? Would not the present firms Ve able to turn them out without adding to their staffs?

Mr MAHON:

– Undoubtedly the printing would add to the employment here. “Mr. Johnson. - Mr. ‘ Wise complains that he cannot get the work turned out in Australia with sufficient expedition.

Mr MAHON:

– That is because he is not willing to make the necessary financial sacrifice.

Mr Atkinson:

– If the work can be done in Australia, I should like to see it done here.

Mr MAHON:

– It can be done here much more advantageously than can the work connected with a number of other items upon which we have placed protective duties.

Mr KNOX:
Kooyong

– I wish to enter my protest against the suggestion that these directories cannot be printed in Australia, and with very great advantage. To mv mind, the whole matter is one of pounds, shillings, and pence, because it is recognised that the directories which are issued in Melbourne by Messrs. Sands and McDougall, and in Sydney by Mr. John Sands, are as good as those which are published in any other part of the world.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– But their establishments are large ones, and they employ special staffs for tlie purpose.

Mr KNOX:

– The suggestion that time’ can be economized by sending the copy for these directories to Great Britain is positively ridiculous. In the circumstances I shall support the imposition of the duty, believing that not to do so would be to do an injustice to our printing establishments, which are turning out most excellent work, and which, if afforded the opportunity, would turn out this additional work creditably.

Mr BAMFORD:
Herbert

.- In my opinion, a duty of 6d. per lb. is too high.’ I do not know whether the honorable member for Coolgardie intends to propose a reduction of the duty, but I certainly mean to vote against the amendment of the honorable member for Grey. I am informed that a great quantity of this work is done in Germany. I know, as a matter of fact, that similar work is done there. If it be a fact that these directories are printed in Germany, or elsewhere, I do not see why we should not give a small preference to the United Kingdom, and I suggest to the Treasurer that if the amendment before the Committee be rejected” the, duty per lb. should be fixed at 6d. in the general Tariff, and at 4d. in the preferential Tariff. That, I think, would meet the case very well.

Amendment negatived. Amendment by (Mr. Poynton) agreed to-

That the words “and on and after roth December, 1907, per lb. (United Kingdom), 4d.” be added.

Paragraph, as amended, agreed to.

Mr MAHON:
Coolgardie

– I propose to move the insertion of a new paragraph. We are imposing .duties of 10 and 15 per cent, on- various papers used in the production of books in Australia, and to admit books from outside countries free. This is an anomaly, and one which I find it very difficult to defend. During the consideration of the old Tariff it was made an argument for the abolition of all duties on what is known as printing newspaper. My proposal, if 1 can get the support of the Committee, will keep out low class literature of the

Deadwoo’d Dick type, which comes in very freely. The list of books which I propose to admit free may not be very complete, but my proposal is open to amplification -

Books dealing exclusively with art, science, or religion, scholastic publications, histories, biographies, dictionaries, encyclopaedias, and works of travel, subject to departmental bylaws (General Tariff), free.

Paragraph c. Printed Matter n.e.i. (except newspapers registered for transmission through the post) being or containing advertisements, including Magazines containing advertisements being more than one-fifth of the printed matter contained within the outside covers, per lb., 6d.

Mr WILSON:
Corangamite

.- This item imposes a duty on all kinds of magazines. In my opinion they ought to be made free, and therefore, I move -

That the words “and on and after 10th December, 1907, free,” be added.

Show-cards or pictures issued by or referring to the goods of any manufacturer or producer not having a special place of business in Australia shall be free. So that nearly all the advertisements which appear in these magazines are specially allowed to be admitted free under the last item we dealt with, when they are sent out as advertisements only through the post.

Mr HUGHES:
West Sydney

.- The Treasurer in his rather remarkable speech seems to have quite misunderstood the .point at issue, or has been incapable of stating his case in such a way as to commend it to honorable members who are accustomed - in spite of the fact that he has been permitted to be in charge of. this Tariff for a considerable time - to have cases presented to them in a logical manner. The honorable gentleman says that it is desirable to foster art and literature. No doubt it is; but if that be the object which he has in view, I ask: What . earthly connexion is there between a number of advertisements which he declines to be allowed to be ‘attached to Munsey’s Magazine and the fostering of literature and art? The whole gravamen of the Treasurer’s charge is that these magazines are accompanied by quantities of advertisements. If thev are cut out he has no objection to allowing the magazines to come in. Therefore, his objection is to the advertisements, not to the literature and art of foreign countries. As to the honorable gentleman’s remarks about lobbying - which, of course, are made rather late in the day, and when the precincts of this chamber are full of exhibits of various kinds - I remind him that not very ‘ long ago he came down to this House with a sheep-shearing machine, the driving gear of which occupied the lobby and which he said was made in Australia when, as a matter of fact, it was imported. We have not heard the Treasurer taking exception to men coming here day after day and stating their case -to honorable members. A hundred of them have tried to speak to me, but few have been successful. I should be very sorry if I could not present a case better than the Treasurer has done on this occasion. The magazine which he has exhibited is an American magazine - Munsey’s. The American magazines, without exception, differ from the English magazines in the number of advertisements which they contain. I take up half-a-dozen English magazines, and find hardly any advertisements in them. Now, I am perfectly prepared to listen to a proposal in favour of excluding the literature and art of all foreign countries, on the ground that it is desirable to foster literature and art in Australia. But I am not to be influenced, by foolish f fulminations against advertisements contained in foreign magazines, and which come in merely incidentally. I am sure that some of us enjoy reading the advertisements in magazines. There is no greater evidence at once of the ingenuity and the credulity of mankind than can be found in reading the advertisements in the American magazines. But the literary men of Australia do not want to exclude magazines because of their advertisements. They want to exclude them - if they have any such desire at all - because they have their own brains to sell here. But the Minister in charge of this Tariff does not want to exclude American magazines for that reason. They are to be permitted as magazines to come in; but their advertisements are to be cut out. That is an illogical and senseless position to take up. The Treasurer seems to think that literature” and art can be dealt with on the basis of so much per pound - that works over a certain weight ought to be excluded, whilst those under a certain weight should be admitted free. He appears to think that literature is a thing that is capable of being weighed and measured.

Mr Johnson:

– He would probably like to tax paintings on the square foot of canvas.

Mr Deakin:

– Ah; that touches the honorable member I

Mr HUGHES:

– I certainly agree that the contents of some magazines are very trivial and foolish, but I should be sorry to think that we are guilty of the intolerable assumption that we do not require all that the intellect of foreign countries can give us. Half-a-dozen magazines which I have in mind have, perhaps, only half-a-dozen pages of advertisements as against thirty or forty pages of general reading matter. The Treasurer has said a great deal on the question of preference to Great Britain, but this is an opportunity which I am sure he will not avail himself of to grant a preference to the Old Country, because according to him advertisements alone are anathema. If he excludes only those magazines in which advertisements preponderate he will allow British magazines to come in at a cheaper rate. I hope that the Committee will determine that magazines shall come in free.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I am inclined to think that–

Several Honourable Members. - Divide ! divide !

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I am quite willing to at once go to a vote, for I admit that it seems like flogging a dead horse to debate this question further.

Amendment agreed to.

Paragraph, as amended, agreed to.

Mr MAHON:
Coolgardie

– I propose to move the insertion of a new paragraph providing for the free admission of illustrated supplements. Certain newspapers are importing high-class art pictures for distribution as Christmas supplements, and I am informed that under paragraph c those supplements will be dutiable at 6d. per lb.

Sir John Quick:

– They have now been made free.

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

– That is so.

Mr MAHON:

– Then my proposed amendment is unnecessary.

Paragraph n. Printing, in Rolls or Folios, known as Newspaper, to be used exclusively for Newspapers under Departmental By-laws, in sizes not .less than 20 x 25 inches or its equivalent (General Tariff), 10 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), free.

Mr MAHON:
Coolgardie

.- I move -

That the words “ and on and after 10th December, 1907, Printing known as Newspaper, in reels or rolls, to be used exclusively for newspapers, under departmental by-laws, ad. val. (General Tariff), 10 per cent.,” be added.

If that amendment be agreed to I shall move a further amendment providing that -

Printing, known as newspaper, in the flat, in sizes not less than 20 inches by 25 inches, or its equivalent, to be used exclusively under departmental by-laws - shall be free.

Mr Mahon:

– Then I am prepared to temporarily withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr SINCLAIR:
Moreton

.-! move1 -

That the words “ known as Newspaper, to be %used exclusively for Newspapers under Departmental By-laws, in sizes not less than 20 x 25 inches, or its equivalent “ be left out, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the letters “n.e.i.”

Sir John Quick:

– Because we could not agree.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– On the original typed document I found the name of the honorable member for Bendigo had been attached and then erased. I suppose the honorable member made the erasure himself?

Sir John Quick:

– Hear, hear. But I always opposed the duty.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– That was the first stage. Then in the second stage this appeared in the report of the protectionist section of the Commission - “ We are of opinion that this item should be amended to read-

To import pulp is out of the question. Wood pulp can be carried only in what is called a condition 50 per cent, dry - half pulp and half water. The freight alone on the pulp necessary to make a ton of paper, even at the most favorable sailing ship rate of 15s. a ton measure, would amount to over 60s. per ton, in addition to charges for insurance, exchange, &C. In a long voyage of 90 to 100 days, pulp would considerably deteriorate, owing to its tendency to decompose. If it dried to any extent, the material would lose its fibrous quality and become mere powder, from which only the coarsest paper could be made;

Newspaper could not be produced in this country in any quantity from rags because the supply is limited, but all writing papers should bear a heavy duty. I have here the following statement with reference to the difficulties that small printers and others are experiencing at present -

All stocks of papers here before the introduction of the Tariff have been charged a duty bv the Paper Combine, which have circularized all printers to that effect.

There is a paper combine at all events in Victoria, if not throughout Australia.

Sands and MacDougall make a certain printing paper - this paper was invoiced prior to the Tariff at 25s. per ream duty. The duty of 20 per cent, was not, of course, operative on such a paper. They were asked for some 35 ream, to be delivered immediately, and answered this way : - 25s. old price, 5s. per ream duty ; 30s. a ream new price, and you must wait a month for the delivery of the order, as since the Tariff our mills are overworked.

Mr Mcwilliams:

– What sort of paper is that?

Mr MALONEY:

– A certain high class paper that Sands and McDougall manufacture, but such is the power of the Combine that the duty is being charged even where it has not been paid. I feel that I am perfectly” justified in voting against the duty, so that the paper which we cannot manufacture here should be admitted free, but I trust that this or some other Government in the near future will take steps to encourage by a judicious bounty the production of suitable wood pulp.

Mr. MATHEWS (Melbourne Ports) [4.48I. - I think it will be admitted that I am fairly keen on anything that affects my electorate. I happen to have in my electorate one of the largest paper mills in Australia, and I am assured, both by employers and employes who are well versed in the manufacture of paper, that ‘ it is almost an impossibility to manufacture newspaper here..

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– What about those rushes ?

Mr MATHEWS:

– I assure the honorable member for Parramatta that I am a scientific protectionist. If T. thought there was a hundred to one chance of manufacturing newspaper and printing paper in Australia I should vote for the highest duty I could get, but. having been assured by those in the trade that it could not be done, I intend to vote to make this article free. I know there is a feeling - I must: admit that I have it myself - that it would lie well to make some people pay. a little bit more taxation than they are paying just now ; but. seeing that that would be stretch>ing my belief as a protectionist, I am willing to let it go. I should like to see “ printing paper ‘ ‘ inserted in this paragraph as well as newspaper, as ordinary printing paper is not made here.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I am going to try to deal with that point in a separate paragraph.

Mr MATHEWS:

– Very well. I wish to impress upon the Treasurer, and upon honorable members, that in taking up this attitude I am not “ slipping “ on paper. I have assured myself that this paper has not been and cannot be made here. The Minister has admitted that the production of pulp requires encouragement by means of the bounty system, and I believe that he himself will place it upon the bounty list. I believe the House would indorse that, seeing that the paper question involves such large interests. As the pulp is not produced here, and our timber is not suitable for pulping, I shall vote against the duty on newspaper and printing paper.

Mr EDWARDS:
Oxley

.- Will the Treasurer give way, and allow printing paper to be made free?

Sir William Lyne:

– Only a vote of the Committee will make me give way.

Mr EDWARDS:

– I hope the Minister will give in, seeing that every member who has spoken on the other side intends to vote against the duty.

Mr Mahon:

– That is quite incorrect. I am not going to vote against it.

Mr EDWARDS:

– I have a great deal of material, with which I could go on for an hour ; but out of consideration for the Treasurer and the Committee I shall deny myself the privilege of saying much about this question, except that I rather favour the amendment, moved by the honorable member for Moreton, to delete all the words after the word “folios,” so that the paragraph may apply to all sizes of printing paper. Why should newspaper be made free, in sizes not less than 20 inches x 25 inches, or its equivalent - because I am quite satisfied that it will be made free - while all smaller sizes are penalized? The smaller sizes are used in various ways for books, particularly school books. Printing paper of all sizes should be made free.

Mr PALMER:
Echuca

– A fear is expressed by the Country Press Cooperative Company that paper in rolls will be made free, while paper in the flat is dutiable. I wish to be assured that all classes of paper will be on the same footing.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I think the honorable member will -find that none of it will be dutiable.

Question - That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the paragraph (Mr. Sinclair’s amendment) - put. The Committee divided.

27 15

AYES: 0

NOES: 0

Majority

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative. Amendment negatived.

Mr MAHON:
Coolgardie

.- I move -

That the following words be added : - “ and on and after 10th December, 1907, Printing, known as Newspaper, in Reels or Rolls, to be used exclusively for Newspapers under Departmental By-laws, ad val., 10 per cent.”

– Does the honorable member propose an- preference?

Mr.- MAHON.- No; I do not think a preferential duty would do much good. A good deal of the reel paper comes from Great Britain, but the countries of origin are not British. I wish it to be clearly understood that my amendment contemplates that the paper used by the small country newspaper proprietors shall still be admitted free.

Mr ARCHER:
Capricornia

.- It would appear that the honorable member for Coolgardie, in his keen anxiety to tax the wealthy metropolitan newspaper proprietors, is quite prepared to do a great injustice to a number of other newspaper proprietors. The honorable member mentioned Rockhampton, and other coastal towns, and classed the newspapers there with the great metropolitan dailies. But I entirely disapprove of any .step being taken which would impose heavy burdens on struggling newspaper proprietors, who are ill prepared to bear them. Bundaberg, Rockhampton, Maryborough, and other places are growing in. importance ; and there came under my notice the other day a newspaper which has just been changed into a daily.

Mr Mahon:

– But all the newspaper proprietors in those places do not use roll paper.

Mr ARCHER:

– But the time is arriving when they will use that paper, and some are using it now. The honorable member said that the newspaper proprietors who use this roll paper could .be counted on the fingers of both hands; but, as a matter of fact, it is used by many more, and numbers of them are by no means wealthy. In all the towns which have been mentioned newspapers’ .have been started bv enterprising men in the face of great difficulties, and yet, in his anxiety to tax the large proprietors, the honorable member is prepared to put a heavy impost on the paper required by men who are doing good work for the country. Some of these newspapers are excellent publications, providing good news at considerable expense, though the proprietors are just managing to scrape along, faced, in some cases, no doubt, with .overdrafts incurred in improving their plants.

Mr Thomas:

– Can the honorable member see his way clear on this occasion to support the Government, who are very anxious to have this duty?

Mr ARCHER:

– I have supported the Government on many items, but I am afraid I cannot support them on this item.

Mr. JOSEPH COOK (Parramatta) [5.131. - The amendment of the honorable member for Coolgardie simply repeats the words of the item, and inasmuch as I originally intended to move that it should be free, I think the only way to raise the question is for me to now move -

That the amendment be amended by leaving out the words “ 10 per cent.,” with a view to insert in lieu thereof the word “ free.”

The honorable member for Coolgardie has endeavoured to show that there should be some differentiation shown between the paper used by the small country newspaper proprietors and -that used by the proprietors of the large city dailies.

Mr Mahon:

– I have done so.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Whether the honorable member has or has not succeeded in doing so, I decline to have anything to do with class taxation of any description. We ought to treat the big proprietors of the cities with the same fairness and justice that we extend to the proprietors of small weekly newspapers; even a big newspaper proprietor has a right to expect that at the hands of the Committee. It is all very well for the honorable member to say that we propose to let the big city newspaper proprietor escape taxation, whilst taxing the small newspaper proprietor in the country. As a matter of fact, we wish to do nothing of the kind. We intend, I hope, to give all newspaper proprietor’s their printing paper free. I need not enumerate the reasons why this commodity should be free. But I wish to reply to the statement made by the honorable member for Coolgardie as to what is going on in other parts of the world. Two months .ago I read in a British newspaper that in New York a movement was in progress to requisition the .United States Government to remit the duty upon wood’ pulp.

Mr Bamford:

– Does not the honorable member think that that is rather a strange coincidence ?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I am speaking pf a movement which was in progress two. months ago. Already the duties imposed under this division of the Tariff are injuring our Australian publishers, who, I am told, are forwarding their books to London to be made up there. It may be that the time will come when we shall be able to convert the rushes grown in Tas- mania, of which the Treasurer spoke, into newspaper, but even if we could do that I do not know whether there is an unlimited supply available. It seems to me that if all the rushes grown in Tasmania were utilized for the purpose they would not keep a huge newspaper mill running very long. The prospects in that direction are, therefore, very small indeed. This newspaper problem is becoming a very serious one all over the world. There is no doubt that the supplies of pine wood, from which the pulp is made, are becoming exhausted, and already the industry is in the hands of one or two individuals. Even if we impose a tax upon printing newspaper we shall not stimulate enterprise in the direction of finding an efficient substitute for pine. It will be a tax pure and simple, and we ought not to impose a burden upon newspaper proprietors for the sake of levying taxation. I think that printing paper ought to be admitted free, inasmuch as it is the raw material of the printer’s finished product.

Mr FISHER:
Wide Bay

.- The proposed duty is undoubtedly a revenue duty. A number of items have beenincluded in the Tariff for reasons which have never been explained, and this is one of them. I sympathize with the proposal of the honorable member for Coolgardie, but cannot see that there is any justification for proposing a tax upon newspaper. I shall vote in favour of the item being made free.

Sir JOHN QUICK:
Bendigo

.- I think that the Government are quite justified in challenging the opinion of the Committee upon this item, because no less than seven out of eight members of the Tariff Commission recommended the imposition of a duty upon this class of paper. There is no reason, however, why that recommendation should be accepted by the Committee. I should like to remind the honorable member for Coolgardie that, in voting for the free admission of newspaper rolls, honorable members will not be voting solely in the interests of the great metropolitan newspapers alone. In Sydney there are twelve newspapers and other publications using these rolls–

Mr Mahon:

-I challenge the accuracy of that statement.

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– In Melbourne there are six, in Adelaide there are six, in Perth four, in Kalgoorlie two, in Launceston two, in Hobart two, in Brisbane six, in Townsville two, in Charters Towers two, and in Victorian country towns six. I give these figures upon the authority of Mr. James Spicer, a Melbourne merchant. There is no reason to doubt that they are substantially accurate.

Mr SPENCE:
Darling

.- I have very grave doubts whether the amendment of the honorable member for Coolgardie would have the effect of taking a single penny out of the pockets of the large newspaper proprietaries. All of these firms are in a position to pass on the duty. That is their policy. As is well known, the mere cost of the paper actually used in the production of a big daily newspaper exceeds the price which the public pay for it. But it must be recollected that the city newspapers can command largerprices for advertising space than can country journals. The latter cannot obtain anything like the same rates. Any tax that we may impose upon printing paper will be passed on to the advertisers, who in turn will pass it on to the consumers. For these reasons I hope that the Government proposal will be defeated.

Mr WILSON:
Corangamite

.- I am sorry that this item is not the first or second item in the Tariff. Had it been we might have been in a position to take to heart the injunction of the honorable member for Bendigo. He has told us that seven out of the eight members of the Tariff Commission recommended the imposition of a duty upon printing paper, but that that was no reason why theCoramittee should accept their recommendation. His words should be written up in large letters. Again and again he has urged that the recommendations of the Tariff Commission should be upheld. Yet here is an item upon which he advises the Committee to vote against its finding.

Sir John Quick:

– I did not recommend the imposition of this duty.

Mr WILSON:

– But upon the honorable member’s own showing seven out of eight members of the Tariff Commission recommended it. I feel that it is in the public interest that printing paper should be admitted free. Country newspapers are deserving of every consideration, because they are working under great disabilities. I shall support the amendment of the honorable member for Parramatta.

Mr MAHON:
Coolgardie

.- I regret that so many honorable members are apparently oblivious of the fact that under my amendment the paper required by country newspaper proprietors would be admitted free.

Mr Archer:

– I questionthat.

Mr MAHON:

– It is only those large newspaper offices which can well afford to pay the extra impost which would be touched.

Mr Archer:

– We say that the honorable member’s statement is entirely wrong.

Mr MAHON:

– The honorable member ought to know that when I speak of the country press I mean the small journals which are published once or twice a week. I should like to read a short extract from the debate which took place upon this item a little more than five years ago. The then Treasurer, Sir George Turner, who I suppose understood the Tariff better than did any other member of the Committee, said -

I know that an agitation has been started, and that circulars have been sent right and left from a particular centre in Melbourne lo prove that this duty will mean ruin to the proprietors of the country newspapers. But the duty is really a light one, and is put on in order to obtain revenue. I do not see why printing paper should be more sacred than anything else.

He went on to say -

I am certain that the imposition of a duty of 10 per cent, will not discourage the publishing of books and pamphlets within the Commonwealth. The proposed duty, besides providing ^25,000 of revenue, will give encouragement to the large mills which are now starting in New South Wales.

I point out to the honorable members for Melbourne and Melbourne Ports that Sir George Turner, when Treasurer, thought that the duty would have a protective incidence -

If the Committee wish to strike out revenue duties, there are other items which can more fairly be amended.

Mr THOMAS:

– I have never attacked the Treasurer. I have always defended bis personal honour. I have never said an unkind word about him, and when any other honorable member has attacked him I have always defended him. But I say that he is the last man who should make such an insinuation as he has done, because, if he insinuates against others, others will insinuate against him.

Sir William Lyne:

– They can do it as much as they like.

Mr THOMAS:

– I do not think they ought to do it. This Parliament should be above conduct of that sort. The Treasurer should be above baseless insinuations, and if he makes them others will do the same. He ought not to set a bad example The Treasurer should have put up a big fight on this question if he really wants the duty. But there is a vague idea that the Government do not want the item carried. It has been left for the honorable member for Coolgardie to defend the item. If the Government were in earnest they should have said that they would stand or fall by the item. Why not make the stand of their life about it if they really believe in it. But we have had the Treasurer for three-quarters of an hour orating about a point qf order and practically dragging a red herring across the trail. If he had only devoted that time, and the powerful oratory and argumentative ability which he possesses and can use when he Likes to defending this item, it would not have mattered about the point of order - he could have had his own way on the main issue.

Unless the Government are prepared to make a stand on this .item I, for one, shall be forced to the conclusion that they would prefer to see it rejected rather than carried. I am prepared to support the item, and I think that when a- number of honorable members who, as a rule, vote against the Ministry are prepared to vote for one of their proposals, they should put up a fight for it.

Mr SPENCE:
Darling

.- The Government proposition places a limitation on the extent of the taxation on paper, and the honorable member for Coolgardie proposes to impose a further limitation. It seems to me quite proper that the Committee should have a chance to vote upon such an amendment. At the same time, I can fully understand the position taken up by the Treasurer. He is afraid that the further amendment moved by the honorable member for Parramatta will, since it is proposed by the honorable member for Coolgardie to exempt paper required for country newspapers, secure votes that it would not carry in other circumstances.

Sir William Lyne:

– Hear, hear;” that is so.

Mr SPENCE:

– Nevertheless, I think that the Committee has a perfect right to vote on that basis.

Sir William Lyne:

– But we should not be tied down to such a position.

Mr SPENCE:

– I do not think that any complication will arise. Those who prefer that the item should be free will be able to vote for the amendment moved by the honorable member for Coolgardie. Both amendments may be rejected, and we shall then revert to the original proposal submitted by the Government. The Committee have a right to vote for any limitation that may be proposed, but if either amendment were withdrawn we should not have an opportunity to do so.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– The Chairman’s explanation absolutely supports my contention. The amendment moved by the honorable member for Parramatta will force honorable members to take up a position regarding the amendment . moved by the honorable member for. Coolgardie which they do not wish to occupy.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– How will it do so?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– I am opposed to the honorable member’s amendment.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– What for?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I do not know that I ought to do so after what has been said. Am I to be submitted to a lot of abuse and then to be asked to accommodate these same honorable members ? The honorable member for Coolgardie, after asserting that I am responsible for the trouble that has occurred, wishes leave to withdraw his amendment, whilst the Treasurer for the last hour has been throwing out all sorts of insinuations. I know what is the matter. It is just as well that it should be publicly stated that the Treasurer fears that the feeling on the part of some of the members of the Labour party against the big daily newspapers will lead to the duty originally proposed by him being carried if they are kept together. That is at the bottom of the trouble. It is a sinister move on the part, not of the Opposition, but of honorable members opposite to get the old duty through when it is tied together.

Sir William Lyne:

– Nonsense.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– As. the honorable member for Coolgardie desires to withdraw his amendment, I do not object to withdraw mine.

Amendments,, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment (by Mr. Joseph Cook) proposed -

That after the words “ 10 per cent.,” the words “and on and after 10th December, 1907, (General Tariff), free,” be inserted.

Mr SINCLAIR:
Moreton

.- As I am sure that my previous amendment was misunderstood by a number of those who voted on it, I wish to test the feeling of the Committee again by proposing the omission of all the words after the word “ by-laws.”

The CHAIRMAN:

– The Committee has already determined that those words shall remain part of the item.

Mr THOMAS:
Barrier

.- Do I understand that we are now being asked to vote on the main question whether paper for the printing of newspapers shall be free or dutiable?

The CHAIRMAN:

– Yes.

Mr THOMAS:

– In that case I appeal to the Government, before a division is taken, to say something in defence of their proposals. . So much is due to those of us who are ranging ourselves with them, assuming that, as the duty has been proposed, there is some particular reason for it. A large number of members have voted for revenue and protective duties, and are now backing out, although the big newspaper proprietors are as well able to pay a duty as are those upon whom they have been piling up taxation. As a matter of fact, even the Postmaster-General would faint if this duty were carried. However, reason or no reason, I shall support the Ministry on this occasion, though they cannot expect support on other items if they do not make a fight in this case.

Question - That after the words “ 10 per cent.,” paragraph d, the words “ and on and after 10th December, 1907 (General Tariff), free “ (Mr. Joseph Cook’s amendment) be inserted - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 29

NOES: 14

Majority … 15

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr LIDDELL:
Hunter

.- As a matter of privilege, I wish to draw your attention, Mr. Chairman, to the fact that this afternoon, at intervals, the privacy and silence of the room allotted to the Opposition has been disturbed by the playing of pianos. Pianos have been placed in one of the ante-chambers which we have been accustomed to use for the interviewing of our constituents and friends. Having been ousted from that apartment, we are now compelled to use the lobby for the purpose. I do not complain of that so much as I do of the fact that when one sits down to the study of the Tariff in the Opposition room, he is annoyed by the noise to which I refer. Honorable members should jealously guard their privileges, and especially those which are designed to facilitate the discharge of their functions within the precincts of this building. I ask you, Mr. Chairman, to take notice of this complaint, and get rid of the nuisance. Several honorable members have spoken to me about the matter.

The CHAIRMAN:

– I shall see that it is attended to.

Paragraph, as amended, agreed to.

Amendment (by Mr. Knox) proposed -

That the following new paragraph be inserted : - “ DD. On and after 10th December, 1907 - Printing n.e.i., free.”

Sir JOHN QUICK:
Bendigo

.- I think that the amendment should be carried. Under the old Tariff the Customs authorities had great trouble in determining whether imported printing paper was to be used for the printing of newspapers or for other purposes. The best thing to do is to make all printing paper free.

Mr Bowden:

– Is the amendment in order, since its effect would be the same as that of the amendment moved by the honorable member for Moreton, with which the Committee has dealt?

The CHAIRMAN:

– The Committee decided that it would not make printing paper free by doing what was proposed by the honorable member for Moreton ; but that does not prevent it from doing what is proposed by the honorable member for Kooyong.

Sitting suspended from 6.3o to 7.45 p.m.

Mr SPENCE:
Darling

.- We should know exactly what is covered by the amendment. It seems to me that, in accordance with their policy, the Government should be prepared to do something to encourage the local paper mills. I believe the proposed new paragraph would cover all kinds of paper, because there is hardly any limit to the variety of paper which is used for printing. The new magazine known as the Native Companion is, I understand, printed on paper made in Geelong.

Mr Thomas:

– Is the Lone Hand also printed on Geelong paper?

Mr SPENCE:

– I could not say, though I am aware that the people connected with that magazine strongly advocate protection. In the case of the Native Companion, however, I am able to say that the editor, writers, and artists are all Australians, and the paper used is manufactured in Australia. I think the amendment should not be accepted. It is too much of a drag-net, since it would cover paper used for the printing of books, magazines, and job printing, as well as for the printing of newspapers. If we do not give some encouragement to the local manufacturers of paper we cannot expect any development of that industry, although, as we make greater progress in forestry, we shall probably grow timber from which pulp can be obtained for the manufacture of paper: The proposed new paragraph would cover every kind of paper except that specially mentioned in paragraph w - writing paper and paper for typewriting. I should like to hear the views of the Treasurer on the amendment.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– I think the honorable member is quite right in asking these questions I believe the proposed paragraph would be found to be too much of a drag-net, and the honorable member has given excellent reasons why it should be opposed. We have paper mills, in which paper used for these purposes is at present being manufactured. I think the Committee has gone very far already in allowing printing paper to be admitted free. This is a serious matter for those who have established and are carrying on the manufacture of paper in the Commonwealth. I think the Committee should be prepared to give them encouragement and support.

Proposed new paragraph agreed to.

Paragraph e. Writing (plain), cut less than 16 in. x 13 in., ad. val., 15 per cent.

Mr MAHON:
Coolgardie

.- I think the Government might just as well eliminate this paragraph. The quantity of this paper imported in 1906 amounted in value to only ^308. There is an anomaly in this division to which I should like to direct the attention of the Treasurer. It will be found that, although this paper is dutiable at 15 per cent., writing and typewriting paper identical with it is dutiable under paragraph (w) at only 5 per cent. Some of this paper is used for the printing of the better class of circulars. I- do not know how the Customs officials are to administer a Tariff of this kind. It seems to me that they would require to have an expert constantly at hand, and even then I should say there would be great difficulty in deciding what paper should be admitted at the lower duty and what at the higher duty. I suggest that the Treasurer should postpone this paragraph until we reach paragraph (w), and then deal with the papers contained in both at the same time.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– The object of this paragraph is to secure that the cutting of the paper shall be done here.

Mr Mahon:

– That is no argument at all. The cutting would be done by machinery.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– That is why it is proposed that this paper should be dutiable at 15 per cent.

Mr Mahon:

– That cannot be, because it refers to paper 16 in. x 13 in., and the same paper is referred to in paragraph w, where it would be dutiable at 5 per cent.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– I was going to say that I think the paper included in paragraph w should also be dutiable at 15 per cent.

Colonel Foxton. - In one case the reference is to paper “cut less “ and in theother to paper “not less” than 16 in. x 13 in.

My. JOSEPH COOK. - Thatmay be; but in connexion with some of these items, as to which there is practically no evidence, a little inquiry might have been made before the Commission recommended the old duty. If that had been done, it would have been found that this line gives very little employment. I understand that all that is necessary is a machine, and that practically no labour will be employed. One or two men and a machine doing nothing else but cutting the paper would cut up enough for the whole Commonwealth. One hesitates to interfere with old duties, but if ever there was a case made out for that interference it is this one. It does not give any employment, and is only another instance of many which we have already had under review, in which Ministers while pretending to impose duties in order to bring into being great national industries, are taxing the whole of the people of the Commonwealth for the purpose of trying to bring into operation a small incidental process.

Sir John Quick:

-It means that the paper is cut. folded and bound in parcels.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Which means hardly any labour. Without disturbing the general duty, we might at least give Great Britain a preference on articles of this sort. I therefore move -

That the words “ and on and after 10th December,1907, ad val. (United Kingdom), 10 per cent.,” be added.

Mr MAHON:
Coolgardie

– I desire to impress again upon the Treasurer the necessity of putting paragraphs e and w together. There must be something wrong, because the importation last year of the paper under this paragraph amounted only to £308 worth, and it is quite possible that a great quantity of it was imported free under the other description. Without saying anything at present about the rate of duty, I urge the Treasurer to put the two together, and also typing paper. There is no reason why a man who wants to type a letter should be able to buy cheaper paper than another who wants to write a letter. That is an absurd distinction.

Sir William Lyne:

– Leave it over until we reach paragraphw. I will then see if I can meet the honorable member in some way.

– Then I move-

That the words “ and on and after10th December, 1907, ad val. (General Tariff),20 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 15 per cent,” be added.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– I will accept duties of 25 per cent. and 20 per cent. The honorable member seems to forget the provisions in the last Tariff.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Would it not be fair to take the mean between the two old duties of 15 per cent. and 25 per cent.?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– No ; we should have the proper duties. We want no compromises of that sort.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The Treasurer is consolidating the two classes of this paper as distinguished in the old Tariff, and he should consolidate the old duties also by accepting a compromise of 20 per cent.

Mr MATHEWS:
Melbourne Ports

– I hope the Treasurer will adhere to his offer to take nothing lower than duties of 25 per cent. and 20 per cent. Ruling is carried on by many firms in Australia. I do not say that it is art work, but the men who are employed at it get good wages, and therefore it cannot be a very simple process. It is still better in the case of bordering. We ought to endeavour to keep those occupations at any rate for the workmen in Australia.

Mr SPENCE:
Darling

.- If there was any justification for imposing a duty in order to have writing paper cut here - a process of great rapidity by the use of the modern guillotine - there is much greater reason for imposing a duty to encourage ruling and bordering here. It is done by machinery and insures the giving of agood deal of work. The Government will do right to retain the duty proposed.

Amendment negatived.

Amendment (by Mr. Joseph Cook) agreed to -

That the words “and on and after 10th December,1907, ad val. (United Kingdom), 20 per cent.,” be added.

Paragraph, as amended, agreed to.

Paragraph g. Browns, and Sugar (grey, blue and other tints) ; Fruit Bag Paper, per cwt. (General Tariff) 6s. 6d., (United Kingdom), 6s.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– I move -

That after the word “ Paper,” the following words be inserted : - “ Candle (blue and grey) Paper, CandleCarton Paper.”

I submit the amendment because these papers are of the same class as those already in the item. The alternative rate is proposed to deal with light-weight papers. In 1906 the imports from the United Kingdom amounted to 12,000 cwt., and from other countries to 78,000 cwt.

Mr MATHEWS:
Melbourne Ports

– I should like to see carpet-felt paper included in this paragraph.

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

– That paper is dealt with in paragraph k.

Mr MATHEWS:

– But the duties on the papers in paragraph k are not so high as the duties imposed in the paragraph under discussion. This paper is made here in large quantities from any sort of pulp, and its manufacture ought to be adequately protected.

Colonel FOXTON (Brisbane) [8.18].- One reason for not including carpet-felt paper in this item is that the papers already included, and those proposed to be added by the Minister, are largely the raw material of the paper-bag manufacturing industry. Carpet-felt paper, so far as I know, is. not the raw material of any industry. The carpet-felt paper is simply used as imported, whereas the papers which are included are closely related to those comprised in paragraph j. I call attention to the fact that the duty on paper bags is considerably lower than the duty on raw material ; and I should like to move that the duties be reduced to 3s. 6d. and 3s. as in the old Tariff. In order to preserve the paper-bag industry, which employs a much larger number of people than is employed in the making of the paper itself, it is necessary to leave a margin of at least 2s. per cwt. in the duty. I have a letter here from a firm which is largely engaged in the manufacture of paper bags, and as it is short, and puts the case very clearly, I shall read it -

So far as we are concerned, we have been working quite satisfactorily under the old Tariff of 3s. per cwt. duty on paper, and 5s. per cwt. on bags; and we think any addition to the duty unnecessary. There are, so far as we know, only two paper mills working in Australia, employing, on a liberal estimate, perhaps 100 hands. Afair price for paper, such as is used for sugar bags, which form a considerable portion of their output, is 7s. per cwt. f.o.b. London. The freight and charges, exclusive of duty, average about 4s. per cwt., so that, with the old duty of 3s. per cwt., the total charges amountto 7s., giving the local mills a protection of too per cent. If the duty is made 6s., as proposed, the protection will amount to 143 per cent. In the paper-bag business alone, there are a far larger number of hands employed than in the two paper mills. According to the proposed Tariff, our raw material, paper, is to have its duty doubled - though a large portion of it must be imported in any case - in order to give an unnecessarily high protection to the papermakers. That it is unnecessarily high is shown by the fact that a paper mill was run for many years in New South Wales without any protection. We hope, therefore, you will see your way to assist in having the duty on paper, Brown sugar (grey, blue and other tints) and Fruit Bag Paper,” reduced to the old rate of 3s. per cwt. Far more serious to us than the increase in duty on paper is the alteration of the duty on paper bags. This was formerly 5s. per cwt., which allowed us a margin of 2s. per cwt. over the protection of 3s. on paper. This is now altered to 25 per cent, on English manufactured bags, and 30 pex cent, on foreign. What is the result? Grey and brown sugar bags, which form the larger proportion of our, and many other, manufacturers’ output can be bought in London at from 8s. to 10s. per cwt, ; 50 that the duty on these will be reduced from 5s. per cwt. to 2s. to 2s. 6d. less than half, while the duty on paper, of which they are made, is to be doubled, viz., raised from 3s. to 6s. per cwt. The result of this will be to do away with the present protection both to the paper mills and the paper-bag makers; as, unless the mills reduce their present prices, which they say they cannot afford to do, it will pay the makers of such bags better to stop making and import, thus throwing a large number of hands out of employment. We should suggest that, as the present Tariff has worked satisfactorily, the duties on paper and bags should be as before, 3s. and 5s: per cwt. respectively; but if this cannot be secured, at least the duty on bags should be at a fixed rate per cwt., as that on paper is, not ad valorem ; and that the same proportion should be maintained between the two as under : -

Sir William Lyne:

– I have a memorandum here to move that the duties on bags be increased to its. and ros.

Colonel FOXTON. - I do not know what protection the duty gives to tEe maker of paper. My proposal would give continued employment to a large number in the bag-making industry, and would, I Imagine, though, personally, I do not know, give some protection, at all events, to the paper-making industry. From the point of view of the employment given, the paper-bag industry is much more important than the paper-making industry ; and it is necessary, therefore, that the former should have this modicum of protection. There is a further passage in the letter, as follows -

It is important to note in this connexion, that 6s. per cwt. on paper was the rate of the old Victorian Tariff previous to 1901, and that iri that Tariff the duty on- paper bags was 10s. per cwt., the same as we now suggest, in the event of the 6s. duty being retained on paper.

– I think that 6s. per cwt. is rather a high impost to levy upon this class of paper. If the first amendment be defeated I shall be prepared to move that the duty under the general Tariff be 5s. per cwt., and under the preferential Tariff 4s. 6d. per cwt. It is only right that all industries should receive a fair amount of protection.

Amendment . (Sir William Lyne’s) agreed to.

Mr WYNNE:
Balaclava

.- I think that the duties proposed upon the paper enumerated in this paragraph are too high. In this connexion we have to consider the interests of the small shopkeepers. I know that in Victoria the industry of bagmaking has been a remunerative one under the old rates. But confectioners have complained that they are unable to sell their goods at a reasonable profit on account of the increase in the duty upon bags.

Mr Page:

– They weigh them with the lollies.

Mr WYNNE:

– But under the Government proposal the duty upon paper-bags will be far heavier than that upon sweets. Consequently, if confectioners weigh the baes with the sweets thev will lose money.

Mr Page:

– Can the honorable member get lollies for 6s. 6d. per cwt. ?

Mr WYNNE:

– But the bags made from this class of paper weigh very heavy. By agreeing to the Government proposal we shall be placing upon the retailers a charge which they will not be able to pass on to their customers. Consequently it will fall very heavily upon the small men. I would further point out that very few paper-bags are imported. The total value of our imports under this heading is only about £3,000 annually. If we increase the duty upon bags to 4s. 6d. per cwt. under the general Tariff, and to 4s. per cwt. under the Tariff for the United Kingdom - an increase of 50 per cent. - I am sure that that will be sufficient.

Mr MATHEWS:
Melbourne Ports

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– A large proportion of these bags are imported and are made of a paper which our mills do not make. I have received from the trade a communication, in which this passage occurs -

It does not seem to us that any benefit will result by putting such a heavy impost on bag papers. Paper known as “ krafft “ is generally used for this purpose, and cannot be made in Australia. Krafft paper is only made in northern Europe. Thousands of tons ale sent annually to the United States, showing that it cannot be made even in America, neither is it made in England.

We are asked to put a tremendous impost on that paper. The honorable member for Melbourne Ports has said that in New Zealand the duty on paper is 7s. 6d. per cwt., but I think that he has made a mistake.

Mr Mathews:

– No; that will come into force in Feburary

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– No. I have a copy of the Tariff which has just been passed ; and I find that the duty on paper bags, not paper, is 7s. 6d. per cwt.

Mr. EDWARDS (Oxley) [94The duties as proposed in the Tariff are 6s. 6d. and 6s., which are extraordinarily high. The Treasurer- has agreed to reduce them to 5s. and 4s. 6d. But he might reasonably accept the amendment of the honorable member for Balaclava.

Sir William Lyne:

– Our duty ought to be higher than that of New Zealand.

Mr EDWARDS:

– What have we to do with New Zealand ? A short time ago a committee of commercial men was appointed in Sydney to report on various matters connected with the Tariff. In their report on this particular matter they say - ‘-

The proposed tax of 6s. 6d. per cwt. as against 3s. per cwt. in the old Tariff is a percentage that is altogether out of proportion to even the requirements of the manufacturers. On some papers it means a duty of 75 per cent. ; and is a prohibitive duty on an enormous quantity of bag-making paper that cannot possibly be made in the Commonwealth. It also tends to place the ordinary bag-maker absolutely’ at the mercy of the paper merchant and the paper manufacturer; the latter especially (in lines that he can manufacture), is able to quote his made bags at a price which, when compared with his quotations to the bag-maker for. paper, leaves the latter no option but to go out of the business. Three shillings per cwt. should be an ample duty on these lines. No bag-making papers are imported from Great Britain.

I will gladly vote for the amendment foreshadowed by the honorable member for Balaclava, although I had intended to support that suggested by the honorable member for Brisbane.

Mr CROUCH:
Corio

.- The honorable member for Brisbane made a great mistake in saying that these goods cannot be made in Australia. I am sorry that I cannot take him down to the Geelong Paper Mills, where I have actually seen the papers in question being manufactured.

Colonel Foxton. - Not all of them. Some of them cannot even be made in the United States, and have to be imported from Great Britain.

Mr CROUCH:

– That is a dreadful thing ! A little while ago they could not manufacture eucalyptus oil in the United States, but was that a reason why we should not make it in Australia? Because America cannot manufacture an article, is that a reason why Australia cannot? I know that these goods are made in Geelong, and I believe that they are- also made in Sydney. The South Australian printers, whose opinion has been quoted by the hon orable member for Grey, are blind to what is being done in Australia. ‘ We do not find the Victorian Printers’ Association, who live on the spot where the goods ar« manufactured, saying that they cannot be made here. They recommend the acceptance of the proposed duties.

Colonel Foxton. - The duties do not affect the printers a bit.

Mr CROUCH:

– If the duties do not affect the printers, why was such an appeal made by the honorable member for Grey on behalf of the South Australian printers, who are asking that the duties shall be reduced? The honorable member for North Sydney has said that we should not protect outsiders. I agree with him. I urge the Government to allow the duty to remain as it stands, and to increase the duty on bags to about double what is at present proposed. I wish to appeal to those who are in favour of good wages being paid, and short hours of labour worked, to support these duties. We. have lately had an example of the good effects of the new protection, which honorable members opposite seem glad to talk about without doing much to promote when they have an opportunity. In consequence of the imposition of these duties the mills of Geelong have been .able to reduce the hours of labour from sixty per week to forty-eight without a reduction of the wages of the workmen, and I am glad to be able to publicly state that the directors have promised me that that shall be a permanent reduction of hours.

Sir John Forrest:

– They were too long before. Surely that state of things did not exist in the honorable member’s electorate ?

Mr CROUCH:

– I am sorry it did. Forty-eight hours is long enough for any man. It existed under the Tariff proposed by the Government to which the right honorable member belonged. The duty was so low that it was impossible to reduce the hours of labour. But they have been reduced under the present Tariff. Seeing that that has been the effect of increased duties, I trust that the Committee will not reduce them.

Mr WYNNE:
Balaclava

.- Personally, I do not mind whether the duty in the first column is made 4s. 6d. or <;s. But why should we not insert a new paragraph providing that, while the duties on brown and sugar grey, blue, and other tints shall be 5s. and 4s. 6d., those on white sulphide and krafft brown, which cannot be made here, shall .be 4s. and 3s. ?

Mr Crouch:

– The consequence would be that papers imported at the lower duties would be used, and we should not have the brown made here at all.

Mr WYNNE:

– White sulphide and krafft brown can only be used’ for fruit bags and similar purposes. We do not want to put duties on the raw material of the bagmaker. I do not object to higher duties on the other varieties.

Mr STORRER:
Bass

.- Before Federation the duty on bags in Queensland was 8s. per cwt., and in South Australia and Victoria 10s. Therefore, if the Minister agrees to make the duties 7s. and 6s. 6d., they will be much lower than they were before’ Federation in the three States I have named.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– In Tasmania the duty was 20s., in Western Australia 15 per cent., and in New South Wales the goods were free.

Sir JOHN QUICK:
Bendigo

– In Sydney there is a large’ paper mill in Moore-street, at which blues, greys, and wrapping paper are very largely made. .A witness, representing the mill, appeared liefore the Commission, and informed us that it was an established fact that, notwithstanding the duty of ^3 per ton on wrapping paper, it could be landed in Sydney from Germany, Sweden, and other foreign countries at about £2 per ton cheaper than the cost existing prior to the formation of the present Tariff. The witness consequently claimed consideration against this fierce competition. He particularly drew attention, to the fact that this printing paper, which we have made free, and which is made free under the character and in the name of printing paper, is often brought into use as wrapping paper. I should like the Minister to consult his officers about this question, and to see whether some strict definition of. printing paper cannot be introduced into the Tariff. I think that it is possible to provide that free printing paper should not be allowed to be used as paper for wrapping purposes. I also think that the manufacturers should receive consideration for their wrapping paper. In the meantime, I am disposed to think, on re-perusing the evidence, that 6s. per cwt. for these papers is too high. I am disposed to accept .the Minister’s suggestion, and to bring it down a little.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– The evidence just read by the honorable member for Bendigo supports my proposition. It shows that the imported paper can be sold at £2 per ton less than the price of the locallymanufactured paper. The increased duty which I propose, namely, 5s. per cwt., instead of 3s. per cwt. in ‘the case of general imports, will make good that difference.

Mr WYNNE:
Balaclava

.- I propose to move that the words “ Fruit-bag Paper “ be left out, and that we insert another paragraph, providing that white sulphide and krafft brown paper for bagmaking be dutiable at 4s. and 3s. per cwt.

The CHAIRMAN:

– We have already carried a later amendment, which renders it impossible for the honorable member to submit that suggested by him.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– Since the suggestion was made, I have consulted the officers of the Department, who tell me that it would be almost impossible, as proposed by the honorable member, to separate the papers. The work would be so difficult that they urged me not to agree to such an amendment.

Mr Wynne:

– Then I shall not press it.

Colonel FOXTON (Brisbane) [9.19].- By way of explanation, I should like to point out that under the old Queensland Tariff this paper came under the heading of “ Paper, E.O..E.” - except otherwise enumerated - and was dutiable at 5 per cent, ad valorem. Paper bags not printed were dutiable at 8s. per.cwt., while paper bags printed were dutiable at 12s. 6d. per cwt.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I move -

That after the figures “6s. 6d.” the words “and on and after 10th December, 1907, per cwt. (General Tariff), 4s. 6d.,” be inserted.

If that amendment be carried, I shall move that the duty on imports from the United Kingdom be 4s. per cwt.

Question put. The -Commitee divided.

Ayes … … … 18

Noes … … … 27

Majority

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to -

That after the figures “6s. 6d.” the words “ and on and after 10th December, 1907, per cwt. (General Tariff), ss.,” be inserted; and after the figures “6s.” the words “and on and after 10th December, 1907 (United Kingdom), 4s. 6d.,” be added.

Paragraph, as amended, agreed to.

Paragraph h. Cartridge and Blotting, per cwt. (General Tariff), 6sl 3d. ; (United Kingdom), 6s.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I intend to move -

That after the figures “6s. 3d.” the words “and on and after 10th December, 1907, per Cwt. (General Tariff), 4s. 9d.,” be inserted; and after the figures “ 6s.” the words “ and on after i oth December, 1907 (United Kingdom), 4s. 3d.,” be added.

This. will be a reduction in proportion to that which we have just made in regard to paragraph g.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– It is complained by some makers of envelopes that this is another case in which the duty on the raw material has been increased to the detriment of the manufactured article. They assert that the duty on envelopes is not more than the duty on cartridge paper, which is largely used in their manufacture. I do not know to what extent cartridge paper is. made here. Can the Treasurer explain the reason for the increase?

Sir William Lyne:

– The protectionist section of the Tariff Commission recommended an increase.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– Perhaps the honorable member for Bendigo will be able to tell us whether cartridge paper is made here.

Sir John Quick:

– I cannot find any reference to the subject.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– I do not think that it is, and this duty is said to be as high as, if not higher than, the duty on envelopes.

Mr Crouch:

– Blotting-paper is made here.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– I am dealing only with cartridge paper. I move -

That the words “ and Blotting “ be left out.

If the amendment be agreed to, I. shall move that the duty on cartridge paper under the old Tariff be adopted.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– Under the New Zealand Tariff cartridge paper is free, but blottingpaper is dutiable at 20 per cent. The departmental officers inform me that both cartridge and blotting paper are made here.

Mr Atkinson:

– Of good quality?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– I do not know much about the cartridge paper, but I have used the locally-made blotting paper, and found it very good.

Mir. ‘ Mahon. - It is very inferior ; one generally has to re-copy his letters after using it.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– At any rate, I am willing to make the duties 5s. and 4s., to bring them into harmony with those in paragraph g.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendments (by Sir William Lyne) proposed -

That after the figures “6s. 3d.,” the words “ and on and after 10th December, 1907, per cwt. (General Tariff), 55.,” be inserted; and that after the figures “ 6s.,” the words “ and on and after roth December, 1907 (United Kingdom), ‘4s. 6d.,” be added.

Mr SPENCE:
Darling

.- Both blotting and cartridge papers are made here; but some of those in the trade have suggested that there should, be an ad valorem duty of 20 per cent, on cartridge paper and a fixed duty on blotting paper. I am not sufficiently acquainted with the subject to know what is best to be done, but I should like the Treasurer to consider the matter.

Sir William Lyne:

– I do not think an alteration necessary.

– No. Consequently we may dismiss the proposed preference in favour of Great Britain as likely to be inoperative, and we can regard the duty for all practical purposes as that set down in the general Tariff, namely, 2s. 6d. per cwt.

Sir William Lyne:

– Will the honorable member accept a duty of is. 6d. per cwt. ?

Mr J H CATTS:

– If the Minister will come down to is. 6d. per cwt., which is nearly half the rate proposed, I shall resume my seat ; but,, before doing so, I move -

That after the figures “ 2s. 6d.,” the words “ and on and after 10th December, 1907, per cwt. (General Tariff), is. 6d.,” be inserted,i and after the figures “2s.,” the words “and on and after roth December, 1907, per cwt. (United Kingdom), is. 6d.,” be added.

Mr Mcwilliams:

– Is the imported article the cheaper?

Mr HARPER:

Mr Harper:

– That statement is contained in a letter which has been circulated.

Mr JOHNSON:

– I am not depending entirely upon that letter for my information.

In a circular which has been addressed to honorable members I find the following’ statement -

The Broadford Strawboard Mills have been so busy the last three years that a year ago they imported 500 tons of strawboard to try to keep pace with the demand. They also enlarged their plant considerably, including putting in two extra lining machines.

Whether this statement is true or not I am not prepared to say, because, like the honorable member for Mernda, I can only depend upon the information which has been given to me.

Mr Harper:

– It is not true.

Mr JOHNSON:

– Persons who are well qualified to give correct information have told me that the statement is true, but the honorable member says that it is not, and in these circumstances it will be for the Committee to judge between the conflicting statements.

Mr Harper:

– The one statement is based on hearsay and the other emanates from the principals themselves.

Mr JOHNSON:

– Yes; but it must be remembered that both statements come from sources which are interested in the industry, though perhaps from opposite stand-points. It will rest with the Committee to determine which statement is right. I am not prepared to vouch for the accuracy of the statement I cited, but I am prepared to vouch for the character of the person from whom I obtained my information. Strawboard is not manufacture’d in England. . As a matter of fact, there is a clause in the leases of most English farmers requiring them to return all the straw to the soil for manuring purposes. It is stated in a journal published in the interests of the boxmakers and strawboard manufacturers that practically all the strawboard manufactured in Holland is exported to Great Britain.

The American Vice-Consul at Rotterdam has been going specially into the strawboard industry of that country, and in putting the report before his Government states that the manufacturers will not give any information on the subject

It is stated that practically all the strawboard exported from England is first imported into England from Holland. Reference has been made to the number of telegrams sent to honorable members with the object of influencing their votes on this question. It is a strange thing that these telegrams should have been sent simultaneously. I wonder who paid for them. Does any one really believe that the employes sent them at their own expense? I am sure that they have not money to spare for sending so many telegrams to honorable members. Now in his evidence before the Tariff Commission, Mr. James McDougall was questioned with regard to prices. He told the Commission that if the duty was increased the prices of strawboard would not be raised. I will quote from his evidence - questions 80,787 to 80,789 -

You also said that you are making a profit of 2^ per cent., and you are asking for an increased duty equivalent to 12^ per cent. ? - Yes ; but I also told you that we do not intend to increase our price.

You can give no guarantee beyond your word, and, as a matter of business, you know that we have to look at the matter from the bare figure point of view? - We could give an undertaking that we will not increase the price.

That would be unwise when the price would be contingent upon the price of raw material? - I am quite prepared to take the risk.

Here is sworn evidence that if Mr. McDougall secured this duty he would not increase the price. Yet we know that he has increased the price. I have in possession a circular which h<is been issued in reference to cardboard boxes by a firm called the Morris Manufacturing Company, carrying on business in Degraves-street, Melbourne. T do not know who the members of the firm are, but I have obtained . a copy of this trade circular, which I may as well read to the Committee -

Dear Sir,

On account of the increase in price of out raw material, occasioned by the introduction of the new. Tariff, from 12^ per cent, to 20 per cent., we shall have to increase our prices 15 per cent., as from the 9th of September. All invoices from that date will bear the additional percentage.

Thanking you for your past favours, and trusting you will continue to place your orders with us, which at all times will receive our best and careful attention,

Yours faithfully,

The Morris Manufacturing Coy.

We see from this document that the makers of cardboard boxes have had to increase their prices to their customers because of the increase of the price of strawboard, which is their raw material.

Mr Spence:

– They may not get it from Mr. McDougall’s firm at all.

Mr JOHNSON:

– There is no other local firm which makes strawboard. The increase referred to is, I understand, in the locally-manufactured article. The circular speaks for itself. In face of this evidence, I hope that honorable members will pause before they consent to an increase in the duty. They must remember that strawboard is the raw material of a very large number of industries employing many hands - many more than those employed in the strawboard industry itself.- Are not these people to have any consideration? Are not the people who use strawboard boxes for the purpose of enclosing their wares not to have consideration either? Is the consumer always to pay the piper, and grin and bear it? He is the one individual in the community whose interests do not seem to enter into the consideration df protectionists for a single moment. There is only one other point to which I wish to refer, and that is the case of those who have to import strawboard for the purpose of manufacturing the finer kind of boxes. I am- credibly informed by those in the trade that the locally-made strawboard, although it is useful, cannot be used for all purposes. It is not useful for the manufacture of the better class of boxes which are required for the more delicate articles of manufacture. We have therefore to consider first that the local strawboard, although it is improving in quality,, is not equal to the imported article, and secondly that the works of the manufacturers of the local strawboard are not sufficiently large to supply all the requirements of the Commonwealth. The suggestion of the honorable member for Parramatta for an ad valorem duty, even as high as 25 per cent., as preferable to the fixed duty of is. 6d., or even is., is one that should commend itself even to high Tariff protectionists in the Committee.

Mr BOWDEN:
Nepean

.- I rise principally on account of a remark made by the honorable member for Mernda, who observed that the making of strawboard was almost entirely a manual labour industry. As a matter of fact, the Committee will find that Mr. McDougall himself, in his evidence - question 80,768 - when asked, “ How many hands do you employ in the strawboard mill?” replied -

I should think that we have between fifty and sixty hands at Broadford, but the manufacture of strawboard is almost all automatic.

That disposes of the statement of the honorable member for Mernda that this is a manual labour industry. The honorable member for Lang has quoted from the evidence of Mr. McDougall, showing that he undertook, after due consideration, not to raise the price of strawboard if the duty were increased. The honorable member for Darling urges that we ought not to pay much consideration to such statements. But Mr. McDougall is not the man to speak lightly of such things. He is not the man to make a promise of that kind without consideration. He knew what he was talking about when he gave that promise. One is almost forced to the conclusion that he made it with the reservation that he would break it as soon as he got an opportunity. His explanation of the increase in the price will not, to my mind, hold water. In writing to the Sydney Morning Herald, Mr. McDougall said -

We have a perfect right to increase our price until such time as the duty is determined upon, because we have now to pay heavy duty on felts, wires, lining paper, and dextrine, etc., that were heretofore free. Should the increased duty be passed, we will at once reduce our price to the rate that it was -when I gave evidence before the Commission plus the extra cost that we will have to pay consequent upon the increased duties - if carried - on fells, wires, lining paper, dextrine, etc.

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

– Dextrine is free.

Mr BOWDEN:

– I am simply reading Mr. McDougall’s explanation. I propose now to read a reply to which ‘ Mr. McDougall has not seen fit to answer. In the same newspaper, Messrs.. Fuerth and Nail wrote -

In reply to this, we question the justness of raising the prices while the Tariff is under consideration, but totally disagree with him in his reasons for so doing, based as they are on the heavy duties imposed on felts, wires, lining paper, and dextrine. In the first item, “felts” - even if used in a strawboard-making machine - would, come in free under division XVI. (Miscellaneous). Item 441 reads - “ Felts foi papermaking machine, free.” Next, “wires” is dealt with under division VI. (Metals and Machinery), item 225, General, 5 per cent., British, free. As the British-made wire is better quality and as cheap as any other make, this item can be reckoned free also. Lining paper and dextrine - As neither of these is used at all on un-lined boards, no extra duty on them need be considered.

In this letter Messrs. Fuerth and Nail, who are paper-box manufacturers in Sydney, show that every one of the reasons given by Mr. McDougall for raising prices is without foundation. Even if these raw materials were not free Mr. McDougall could not be released from the promise that he made when before the Tariff Commission that he would not, under any circumstances, increase the price of strawboard. The only other point with which 1 desire to deal is that relating to the natural protection enjoyed by the local manufacturers. It is true that for a short time a few consignments of strawboard came in - while the freight war lasted - at 5s. per ton. A special shipment was brought in at that rate when the ship-owners were cutting freights, but those circumstances do not pertain to-day, and are not likely to recur. The Bulletin, in writing in opposition to Messrs. Fuerth and Nail’s contention, in its issue of 12th September last, acknowledged that it was only while the freight war lasted that this rate was charged.

Mr Harper:

– The war of freights lasted for about two years.

Mr BOWDEN:

– But it is dead now.

Mr Harper:

– Yes.

Mr BOWDEN:

– It will be interesting to place on record a comparison of charges on Dutch and Australian strawboard. The expenses on one ton of Dutch strawboard are as follow: - Freight from Holland to Hamburg,10s. ; Hamburg dues and agency f . o.b., 7s. 6d. ; freight from Hamburg to Sydney by sailer, 18s.9d. ; insurance, 3s. 7d. ; exchange, 5s. ; agent’s commission,5 per cent. on c.i.f., 5s. 5d. ; wharfage, 3s.9d. ; cartage, 3s. ; duty under old Tariff, £1 ; total, £3 17s. The expenses on one ton of Broadford strawboard are as follow : - Expenses from mill, Broadford, to f.o.b. Melbourne, 12s. 6d. ; freight, Melbourne to Sydney, at 12s. 6d., less 10 per cent.,11s. 3d. ; insurance, 8d. ; wharfage, 3s.9d. - these are the actual charges - cartage, 3s. ; leaving a balance of £2. 5s.10d., which is equal to an ad valorem duty of 513/4 per cent. f.o.b. in favour of the Broadford mill. The strawboard mill gives employment to twenty or thirty hands, whereas the industries that seeks a reduction of the duty give employment to between 3,000 and 4,000.

Mr Harper:

– The local mill gives employment to about sixty-five hands.

Mr BOWDEN:

– Even if it does, I think these facts show that it is undesirable to increase the duty. If, however, the Treasurer is prepared to agree to a duty of 25 per cent. as a compromise, I shall be ready to accept it.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment (by Mr. Poynton) negatived -

That after the figures” 2s. 6d. “ the words “ and on and after 10th December, 1907, per cwt. (General Tariff),1s.,” be inserted.

Amendments (by Mr. J. H. Catts) agreed to -

That after the figures “ 2s. 6d “ the words “ and on and after 10th December, 1907, per cwt. (General Tariff),1s. 6d.,” be inserted; and that after the figure”2s.” the words “ and on and after 10th December, 1907, per cwt. (United Kingdom),1s. 6d. “ be added.

Paragraph, as amended, agreed to.

Paragraph J. Bags, ad val. (General Tariff), 30 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 25 per cent.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– When moving in connexion with a previous paragraph the reduction of rates to 5s. and 4s. 6d., I said that I thought that a corresponding reduction in the rates on bags would be 7s. and 6s. 6d. ; but I have since been informed by a number of honorable members that those rates would not give a sufficient margin, and that the rates should be 8s. and 7s. 66. I therefore move -

That after the words “30 per cent.” the words “ and on and after 10th December, 1907, per cwt. (General Tariff), 8s.,” be inserted ; and that after the words “ 25 per cent. “ the words “ and on and after 10th December, 1907, per cwt. (United Kingdom), 7s. 6d.,” be added.

Amendment by (Mr. J. H. Catts) proposed -

That the words “ Millboard, Greyboard, Leatherboard, and Woodboard “ be left out.

Mr J H Catts:

– I do not think I should stand in the honorable member’s way if he desires to move a prior amendment, though I shall, not vote for’ the amendment he proposes. I ask leave to temporarily withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment (by Mr. Frazer) proposed -

That the words “ Cardboard, ‘ Pasteboard,” be left out.

Question - That the words “ Cardboard, Pasteboard,” proposed to be left out, stand part of the paragraph (Mr. Frazer’s amendment) - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 19

NOES: 16

Majority

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative. Amendment negatived. Amendment (by Mr. J. H. Catts) agreed to-

That the words “ Millboard, Greyboard, Leatherboard, and Woodboard “ be left out.

Mr POYNTON:
Grey

– ! have a letter from the Master Printers’ Association, pointing out that quite a number of these lines, more particularly pasteboard, pulpboard, leatherboard, greyboard. and woodboard are not made here. I move -

That after the words “ 20 per cent.,” the words “ and on and after 10th December, 1907, ad val. (General Tariff), 15 per cent.,” be inserted.

I intend, if that is agreed to, to move that the duty be 10 per cent, in the case of imports from the United Kingdom.

Question put. The Committee divided. Ayes … 15

AYES: 0

NOES: 20

Majority

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative. Amendment negatived. Paragraph, as amended, agreed to. Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) proposed -

That the following new paragraph be inserted : - “ (kk) On and after 10th December, 1907, Millboard, Greyboard, Leatherboard, Woodboard, ad. val. (General -Tariff), 5 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), free.”

Mr BOWDEN:
Nepean

.- I suggest that Manila board should also be included. This board is made from grey board, with an outside of wood board, and is used for purposes similar to those for which the boards proposed by the Treasurer are used. I am afraid that unless it is included it may fall under some other paragraph.

Sir William Lyne:

– I accept the suggestion of the honorable member.

Proposed new paragraph amended accordingly.

Mr J H Catts:

– Why should not the . whole item be free?

Sir William Lyne:

– Because it is desired to bring these boards in unison with a number of other articles which bear a similar duty.

Mr JOHNSON:
Lang

.- There is no advantage in the preference that is proposed. For instance, wood pulp middles are not brought from the Old Country, and those interested in the paper mills admit that the article ought to come in free. I have here a statement from the manufacturers as follows -

The middles are a rough paper, forming the body of the cardboard, and they are made from spruce and some other soft woods, which in Canada and Sweden and some other countries where water-power is plentiful are ground up into a kind of pulp, and in the one process made into middles, such as we use. There is no wood grown in Australia in any marketable quantity which could be used for this purpose, nor is water-power available.

No witness on behalf of the local paper mills or, as far as we know, on behalf of any Australian paper mill, made any request that, these wood pulp middles should be made to pay duty. They do not compete against any article produced in Australia, or likely to be produced, as they are far too expensive to compete against strawboard, and the thickness to be admitted free might be limited to an equivalent of 140 lbs. per ream royal, and under.

It will be seen from this that wood pulp middles are not made in the United Kingdom, and that, therefore, the proposed preference is a sham. The Treasurer wishes the Committee to believe that by admitting these articles free under the Tariff for the United Kingdom he is giving a substantial preference to the Mother Country. But, as a matter of fact, he is doing nothing of the kind. I move -

That the proposed new paragraph be amended by leaving out the words “ 5 per cent.,” with .1 view to insert in lieu thereof the word “ free.”

Mr MALONEY:
Melbourne

.- I ask the Treasurer, to include in this paragraph cardboard and pasteboard, which, are not made here, and which are imported in the rough.

Sir William Lyne:

– They have already teen dealt with, and we cannot revert to them.

Mr MALONEY:

– If I cannot get the articles I have mentioned placed upon the free list by this Committee, it will be my duty to endeavour to persuade the Senate to put them in that category.

Sir William Lyne:

– It is such a small matter that I shall not worry about it.

Amendment of the proposed new para.graph., by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment (by Mr. Bowden) negatived -

That the proposed new paragraph be amended by inserting after the words “ Manila board “ the words “ lined and unlined.”

Amendment (by Mr. Johnson) negatived -

That the proposed new paragraph lie amended by leaving out the words “’ 5 per cent.,” with a view to insert in lieu thereof the word “ free.”

Proposed new paragraph agreed to.

Paragraph (l). Surface-coated Paper, including Marble, and Foil Paper, ad val., 20 per cent.

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne; proposed -

That the following words be added : - “ and on and after 10th December, 1907 - (l). Flint or Surface-coated Paper, plain or embossed, also Marble and Foil Paper and Box Makers’ Bordering and Lace Paper, free.”

Amendment agreed to.

Paragraph, as amended, agreed to.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– I move -

That the following new paragraph be inser/ed : - “ rx. On and after 10th December, 1907 - Coated Boards n.e.i., which, at the size of a single royal 20 x 25 inches, or its equivalent, weigh 80 lbs., or over, per ream of 4S0 sheets, ad val. (General Tariff), 25 per cent.; (United Kingdom), 20 per cent.”

– He knows what he is talking about. We need a fair margin, and if necessary the item covering the raw material should be recommitted. The average Customs officer would probably find it difficult to distinguish between the Australian and the imported paper, but an expert in half-an hour could teach him readily to do so by means of a magnifying glass. If the superior surface-coated board is not and cannot at present be made here, it should be placed on the free list. The firm of Messrs. Sands and McDougall seems to have A dominating influence over the printing community, and if Mr. McDougall would swear that hd could make high-class paper equal to the imported we should have no difficulty in deciding the matter. As it is, I prefer to accept the evidence of six witnesses as against that of one. The local firm imports the Manila board - which is dutiable at 5 per cent, and free - and coats it, and it is largely used for making cardboard boxes. ‘It is our duty to see that Australian artists engaged in the colour process work are able to secure the best material in order that they may compete with the rest of the world. We have a multitude of post-cards printed in three colours. I shall endeavour if, as I have been assured, cardboard and pasteboard are not manufactured here, but merely coated after being imported, to get the Senate to reduce the duty. In my opinion, we should follow the example of Japan, and nationalize the paper industry. We should not then hear mean and paltry threats of the dismissal of workmen. I read this afternoon a letter in which Mr. McDougall said that since the Tariff was introduced he could not supply a certain kind of paper for a month or six weeks, and then only at 5s. above the former price, making it 30s. instead pf 25s. a ream. This increase was charged although no duty had been paid on the raw material. I voted under a misapprehension in regard to some of the paragraphs in this item, but had I heard th; honorable member for Yarra speak I should have voted differently, and I think that the Committee would have voted differently had it known what it knows now. However, I do not suppose that I shall persuade the Treasurer to agree to a recommittal. I never yet knew a political speech to alter the vote of a member -whose mind was made up, and I do not lay the flattering unction to my soul that my speech will do so.

Mr. SPENCE (Darling) [12.28 a.m.l.It seems to me rather too late for the Committee to take exception to a duty of 25 per cent. I understand that the rates arrived at were agreed upon at a conference in which all connected with the trade were represented, and in which Mr. McDougall did not get his own way.

Mr MALONEY:
Melbourne

– I have been asked who is the artist or printer responsible for the splendid work which I have exhibited to the Committee, and it is only , just to state that Messrs. Oboldstone and Attkins printed the Australian pictures.

Proposed new paragraph agreed to.

Paragraph M. Gummed, paper, n.e.i., ad val., 20 per cent.

Amendment (by Mr. Joseph Cook) negatived -

That the words’ “and on and after 10th December, 1907, ad val. (United Kingdom), 15 per cent.”

Paragraph agreed to. Paragraph n (Vesta and match-boxes) agreed to.

Paragraph o. Vesta and Match-boxes having advertisements thereon, empty, per gross, gd.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I think that this duty should lie reduced to 3d.

Sir William Lyne:

– I am willing to consent to a reduction to 6d.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Will the Minister agree to 6d. and 3d. ? Sir William Lyne. - No.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Will the honorable gentleman give any preference ?

Sir William Lyne:

– No.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Then I moveThat Hie words “ anr] on and after 10th December, 1907, per gross, 6d.,” be added.

Amendment agreed to.

Paragraph, as amended, agreed to.

Paragraph p (Playing cards) and paragraph o (Fashion plates and books) agreed to.

Paragraph r. Paper Shavings and Waste Paper for Paper-making (General Tariff), 5 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), free.

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to -

That after the words “5 Per cent.,” the words “ and on and after 10th December, 1907 (General Tariff), free,” be inserted.

Paragraph, as amended, agreed to. Paragraph s (Emery Paper, &c.) agreed to.

Paragraph t. Pulp for manufacturing paper (General Tariff), 5 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), free.

Amendment (bv Sir William Lyne) agreed to -

That after the words “5 per cent.,” the words “ and on and after 10th December, 1907 (General Tariff), free,” be inserted.

Paragraph, as amended, agreed to. Paragraph u (Roofing, Sheathing and Insulating Paper) agreed to.

Paragraph v. True Vegetable Parchment (General Tariff), 5 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), free.

Mr SINCLAIR:
Moreton

. -This is a direct tax of 5 per cent, on the whole of the paper used in the dairying industry, and I ask the Treasurer in the circumstances to make vegetable parchment free.

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to -

That after the’ werris ‘-5 per cent.,” the words “ and on and after 10th December, 1907 (General Tariff), free,” be inserted.

Paragraph, as amended, agreed to.

Paragraph w (Writing and Typing Paper) agreed to.

Paragraph x. Tissue Cap Paper in sheets, 20 x 30 inches and over (General Tariff), 5 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), free.

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) proposed -

That the following words be added : - “ and on and after 10th December, 1907, Copying, Tissue, and Tissue Cap Paper, and Paper for Paper Patterns in sheets or rolls, not to exceed 0 lbs., for 500 sheets 20 x 30 inches, free.”

Mr. BOWDEN (Nepean) [12.38 a.m. 1.- 1 wish to ask the Treasurer whether he is satisfied that if fruit papers are printed with the name and address of the exporter of apples before they are imported, in accordance with the practice which the honorable member- for Franklin has said is adopted, they will be admitted free?

Sir William Lyne:

– No; I said they would not.

Amendment agreed to.

Paragraph, as amended, agreed to.

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to -

That the following new paragraph be inserted : -

On and after 10th December, 1907, Monotype paper for use iri ‘ Monotype Machine, free.

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) proposed -

That the following new paragraph be inserted : -

On and after 10th December, 1907, Baryta Surface Coated Paper or Board for photographic purposes, free. ‘

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– I wish to know if this paragraph will cover all this special photographic paper. I understand that, although it was free under the old Tariff, the Customs officials have been demanding duty on the heavier paper, on the ground that it is cardboard.

Sir William Lyne:

– The new paragraph is intended to cover all this photographic paper.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– It is a distinct paper, prepared for photographic purposes, but, although that is admitted, two-ply paper used for postcard photographs has been held to be dutiable.

Siu William Lyne. - It is intended under this new paragraph to make it all free.

Proposed new paragraph agreed to. Item 353. (a) Stationery, manufactured ; including Bill Files and Letter Clips; Cardboard Boxes, cut and shaped, or finished ; Mounts for Pictures; Calendars and Almanacs, n.e.i.; Date Cases and Cards; Albums, including Birthday, Scrap, Motto, and Character ; Cards, and Booklets, including Printers’, Visiting, Menu, Programme, Wedding, Funeral, Christmas, Easter, New Year, and Birthday; Scraps; Transfers; Ink-stands ; Ink Bottles ; Ink-wells ; Paper Knives; Blotters; Blotting Cases and Pads; Billheads and other printed, ruled, or engraved forms of paper n.e.i., bound or unbound; Books - Account, Betting, Cheque, Copy, Copying, Diary, Drawing, Exercise, Guard, Letter, Music, Memo., Pocket, Receipt, Sketch, and the like; Envelopes; Stationery Packets; Wrappers for Writing Paper ; Memo, and Sketch Blocks ; Memo. Slates and Tablets; Labels, Tags, and Tickets ; Sealing and Bottling Wax ; Pictures of all kinds n.e.i.; Pencil Cases; Pencils n.e.i.; Pen and Pencil Sets and Penholders n.e.i. ; fountain Pens; Bookmarkers; Rulers; Writing Desks (not being furniture) ; Writing Cases ; Stationery Cases; Paper Binders; Card Hangers ; Pen Racks ; Bookbinders’ Staples ; Charts for manuscript use; Corrugated Strawboard ; Strawboard made into bottle envelopes ; Paper Lace ; Academy Boards ; Confetti Paper ; Printed Parchment, ad val. (General Tariff), 30 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 25 per cent.

Manufactures of Paper n.e.i., including

Printers’ .Matrices, ad val. (General Tariff). 30 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 25 per cent.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– I wish to make some alterations in this item. In the first place, I wish to have calendars and almanacs n.e.i. left out, as they have been provided for in a previous item. Then I wish to strike out inkstands, pencils n.e.i., fountain pens and rulers, with the intention of making them free.

Amendments (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to -

That the words “ Calendars and Almanacs n.e.i.” and “Inkstands” be left out.

That the words “ Pictures of all kinds n.e.i.” be left out, with a view to insert iri lieu thereof the words “Postcards n.e.i.”

That the words “ Pencils n.e.i.,” “ Fountain Pens,” and “Rulers,” be left out.

Mr BOWDEN:
Nepean

– I suggest to the Treasurer the exclusion of “paper lace” from the item. I understand that lace paper is on the free list, but that is not paper lace, which is used by the makers of boxes and cartons for ornamentation, and so is practically part of their raw material.

Sir William Lyne:

– I will not omit “ paper lace.” I have gone as far as I can go, and I. shall not go any further. The. making of this lace gives a great deal of work.

Mr BOWDEN:

– I move-

That the words “Paper lace”, be left out. Amendment negatived.

Mr JOHNSON:
Lang

.Academy boards are prepared for students for oil-painting. They are not manufactured here. They are made by Winsor and Newton, the English firm. I move -

That the words “ Academy boards “ be left out.

Sir William Lyne:

– I agree to that. Amendment agreed to.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– This is a large item, and a number of these articles will never be made here at all. It is really a revenue duty.

In order to arrive at a compromise between the old rates, I move -

That after the words “ 30 per cent.,” the words “ and on and after 10th December, 1907, ad val. (General Tariff), 25 per cent.,” be inserted.

– No. The CHAIRMAN.- I think the question had better be tested by moving to omit the words “ per lb.”

Amendment (by Mr. Archer) proposed -

That the words “ per lb. “ be left out.

Mr TUDOR:

– That provides only for the retention of the old rate of duty. I ask the Treasurer to adhere to a fixed duty, especially as there is a heavy duty upon most of the raw materials used in the manufacture of printing inks.

Mr. JOSEPH COOK (Parramatta) ls. 14 a.’m.]. - I should like to add a few words to what has been said by the honorable member for Capricornia and the honorable member for North Sydney upon this item. My information is that the duty proposed by the Government is equivalent, in some cases, to an ad valorem rate of 200 per cent. 3£d. per lb. it must be.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– Upon ink at

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– If we force inferior ink upon the country newspapers - as we shall do by the imposition of high duties - it will be at the loss of their readers. These journals should not use the ink that is used by the large newspapers with bad results to the eyes of their readers. For the sake of their readers we ought not to force country newspapers to use cheap inks. The Postmaster- General is referring me to an article which was prepared under special conditions.

Mr Mauger:

– That shows the quality of the ink.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I am pointing out that an ink which may be perfect in the Age office may be of scarcely any use in a small country office. If their ink is taxed to the extent of 200 per cent, it can only tend to drive the proprietors of country newspapers to use an inferior ink. We ought to see if we cannot make the article a little cheaper to them so as to give them the same advantage as the large newspapers enjoy with their cheaper ink. This is essentially a tax on country newspapers, and as such ought to be discouraged.

Mr. mcwilliams (Franklin) [1.17 a.m.]. - I assure the Committee that there is no more difficulty in differentiating between the varieties of printers’ ink than there is in distinguishing between the varieties of any other imported article. That statement is corroborated by inquiries which I have just made. There can be no doubt that the Treasurer is proposing an extraordinary duty, being practically equal to 100 per cent. Is the Committee prepared to vote that high tax? It has been stated that one of the reasons for keeping the fixed duty was that it was practically impossible for the Department to . distinguish between the values of the ink. But I can assure honorable members that that statement is absolutely wrong, as they can ascertain by reference to the officers of the Department. Is it desirable to place a high duty on these inks? In my opinion it is not. A duty of 25 or 20 per cent, is practically the proposal of the Tariff Commission.

Mr Tudor:

– No, a duty of 6d. per lb., or 25 per cent.

Mr Archer:

– The duty proposed in the Tariff is 30 and 25 per cent.

Mr MCWILLIAMS:

– If it is intended to impose a duty of 30 and 25 per cent, that is going farther than the Tariff Commission recommended. If honorable members give the Department the option of levying a fixed or an ad valorem duty if will put those who have to use the dearer inks at a decided disadvantage.

Mr STORRER:
Bass

.- We have really been engaged in discussing two items. Of course i know that stencilling ink is different from printing ink, but what the difference between them is I am not in a position to state at the present time. I do not see why there should be any limitation. If a man wants 50 lbs. of cheap ink he should be in a position to get it just as readily as a man who wants a ton of the article. I trust that the Minister will remove that limitation.

Sir William Lyne:

– When we get to that item I will alter it.

Mr ARCHER:
Capricornia

– A great injustice is sought to be done. It is most objectionable that when strong representations are made from this side the Treasurer and his supporters should merely interject and deny our statements. I have absolute knowledge that what I said is true.

– I know that a number of honorable members who have gone home paired would have all voted for our proposal. If we are defeated in this thin Committee it will be simply owing to the lateness of the hour. It will certainly not represent the decision of a full Committee. But it will perpetuate a gross injustice to the users of the ink. We are not asking for a lower duty, but for that which the Government proposed in the Tariff originally, namely, 30 and 25 ‘per cent. I do not think that the Treasurer is justified in taking up this stand. He will not even rise and tell us why he is acting in this way. If he wants to stick to a fixed duty, why does he not propose the same rate all round?

Colonel FOXTON (Brisbane) [1.25 a.m.]. - I should like to point out, in reply to an interjection made by the PostmasterGeneral to the effect that if more honorable members had been present and had heard the facts of the case they would have changed their minds, that not one solitary fact has been advanced from the Ministerial side of the chamber. All the facts have been stated by those who support the amendment of the honorable member for Capricornia. Many of trie salient facts have been clearly stated by the honorable member for Franklin, who has had practical experience, and who says that if the proposed duty be carried it will have the effect of almost compelling the’ country newspaper proprietors, to use cheaper ink. The effect of this would be that the high duty would defeat its object. A further effect of the duty will operate upon the readers of the country newspapers. I approach this matter in an entirely unbiased frame of mind. I have not been approached in regard to it by any one. All that T know about it has been learnt from reading the circulars which have ‘been issued, and from hearing the speeches of honorable members. It appears to me that the honorable member for Capricornia is quite right in his contention, and I shall vote with him.

Question- That the words “per lb.” proposed to be left out stand part of the item (Mr. Archer’s amendment) - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 18

NOES: 0

Majority

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative. Amendment negatived. Mr. ARCHER (Capricornia) [1.32 a.m]. - I should like to ask the Treasurer whether he favours a fixed duty as against’ an ad valorem duty?

That after the figures “ 6£d.” the words “and on and after 10th December, 1907, per lb. (General Tariff), 3d.,” be inserted.

Question put. The Committee divided. Ayes … … … 12

AYES: 0

NOES: 17

Majority

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Amendment (by Mr. Archer) put -

That after the figures “6id.” the words “ and on and after 10th December, 1907, per lb. (General Tariff), 4d.,” be inserted.

Question put. The Committee divided.

Iti division:

AYES: 0

NOES: 0

Majority

AYES

NOES

The CHAIRMAN:

– I have no power to prevent his doing so. As it appears from the Tellers’ lists that there is no quorum present, I must report the matter to the House.

In the House :

No quorum reported.

Mr.’ Deputy Speaker adjourned the House at 1.55 a.m. (Tuesday).

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 9 December 1907, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1907/19071209_reps_3_42/>.

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House of Representatives 9 December 1907

ABSENCE OF MR. SPEAKER

QUESTION

TEMPORARY EMPLOYES : HOLIDAYS

Mr PAGE:MARANOA, QUEENSLAND

Mr MAUGER:Postmaster-General · MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA · Protectionist

QUESTION

TELEPHONE SERVICE, NEWCASTLE

Mr WATKINS:NEWCASTLE, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr MAUGER:Protectionist

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Mr JOSEPH COOK:PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr DEAKIN:Minister for External Affairs · BALLAARAT, VICTORIA · Protectionist

Mr JOSEPH COOK:PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr DEAKIN:

Mr Bamford:

Mr DEAKIN:

Mr JOSEPH COOK:PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr DEAKIN:

Mr JOSEPH COOK:PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr DEAKIN:

Mr W H IRVINE:FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr DEAKIN:

Mr W H IRVINE:FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr DEAKIN:

Mr W H IRVINE:FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr DEAKIN:

Mr Chanter:

Mr DEAKIN:

Mr McWilliams:

Mr Thomas:

Mr DEAKIN:

Mr Thomas:

Mr DEAKIN:

Mr McWilliams:

Mr DEAKIN:

QUESTION

INVOICE VALUE OF PIANOS

Mr JOHNSON:LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

Mr Johnson:

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

Mr JOHNSON:

Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER:

Mr Johnson:

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:Minister for Trade and Customs · EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

QUESTION

PUBLIC SERVANTS: INCREMENTS

Mr POYNTON:GREY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr DEAKIN:Protectionist

QUESTION

EXCISE TARIFF (AGRICULTURAL MACHINERY) ACT

Mr KING O’MALLEY:DARWIN, TASMANIA

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:Protectionist

QUESTION

POSTAL OFFICIALS : OVERTIME

Mr JOHNSON:

Mr MAUGER:Protectionist

TARIFF

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

Sir John Forrest:

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

Mr Storrer:

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

Mr JOSEPH COOK:PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

Sir John Forrest:

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

Sir John Forrest:

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

Mr JOSEPH COOK:PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

House of Representatives
9 December 1907

Mr PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND

Mr MAUGER:
Postmaster-General · MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA · Protectionist

Mr WATKINS:
NEWCASTLE, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr MAUGER:
Protectionist

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr DEAKIN:
Minister for External Affairs · BALLAARAT, VICTORIA · Protectionist

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
Minister for Trade and Customs · EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

Mr POYNTON:
GREY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
DARWIN, TASMANIA

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
Protectionist

Mr MAUGER:
Protectionist

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

Sir JOHN QUICK:
Bendigo

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

Mr MCWILLIAMS:
Franklin

Mr POYNTON:
Grey

Mr POYNTON:
GREY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr KNOX:
Kooyong

Mr POYNTON:
Grey

Sir JOHN QUICK:
Bendigo

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917