House of Representatives
26 November 1907

3^rd Parliament · 2^nd Session

PETITION
QUESTION
- BUTTER BOXES : BOND
QUESTION
- PARLIAMENT HOUSE
QUESTION
- CLOSURE
QUESTION
- CHINESE HELMETS FOR POSTAL OFFICIALS
QUESTION
- CRIMEA AND INDIAN MUTINY VETERANS
QUESTION
- JAPANESE IRON INDUSTRY
MANUFACTURES ENCOURAGEMENT BILL
QUESTION
- SOUTH AFRICAN WARPROMOTION OF OFFICERS
QUESTION
- GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, SYDNEY
QUESTION
- LIGHT HORSE BRIGADE CAMP
QUESTION
- TARIFF
SPECIAL ADJOURNMENT

Mr. Speaker took the chair at 11 a.m., and read prayers.

page 6591

PETITION

Mr. TILLEY BROWN presented a petition from the Wilberforce Gold Dredging’ Company, of Stanley, Victoria, praying the House to grant an exemption from or rebate of Customs duty on a portable engine.

Petition received and read.

page 6591

QUESTION

BUTTER BOXES : BOND

Mr JOHN THOMSON:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · PROT; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I beg to ask the Minister of Trade and Customs whether, in view of the fact that the drawback on timber used in the making of butter boxes is not always participated in by the persons who have originally paid the duty on such timber, and also that some of the boxes are not exported, he will make provision for the making of butter boxes in bond, so that all persons purchasing boxes may participate in the exemption intended by the Minister?

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
Minister for Trade and Customs · EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

– The whole question of rebate in connexion with butter boxes . and fruit cases is now under consideration. We desire to give every possible help to the primary producer. At the same time, we are anxious that if it is to be done in the form of a rebate, the money shall go into the proper pockets. We have also to give due consideration to the timber industry. I am hopeful that, with the information I have at hand, we shall evolve something which will be satisfactory to all. parties concerned. Immediately I am in a position to give any information to the House I shall be glad to do so.

page 6591

QUESTION

PARLIAMENT HOUSE

Exhibits : Lobbying

Mr JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES

- Mr. Speaker, I desire to address to you a question affecting the privileges of honorable members. On the door of a room adjoining the Opposition room there is posted a notice “ Strictly private. For members only,” and signed under order by the Serjeant-at-Arms. In that room there has been erected by some strangers a machine with the object of influencing the votes of honorable members in regard to the duty on that particular machine. What I desire to know, sir, is whether it has been erected there with your authority or with your permission, and, if so, will importers of machinery be accorded a like privilege if they should desire it?

Mr Bruce Smith:

– We want a sample room here apparently.

Mr JOHNSON:

– In the corridors and passages between members’ rooms and the chamber there are posted notices requesting honorable members not to- introduce strangers into the lobbies and corridors during the sitting of the House. Yet time after time, while the House is sitting, when honorable members desire to pass to oi from their rooms, they have to pass through what seems like a public thoroughfare, in which they are intercepted and importuned by strangers in regard to different items in the Tariff. I desire to know, sir, if that is not in contravention of your order; also whether you gave permission for a machine to be erected in a private room; and, further, whether similar permission will be given to other persons if desired ? . I have asked these questions because the honorable member for Hume last night professed great indignation at the alleged fact that the representative of an importing firm had been seen in the precincts of the House; though he appeared to regard it as quite “proper that local manufacturers should be present in battalions.

Mr SPEAKER:

– I presume that the room to which the honorable member refers is that which is commonly known as the north lobby.

Mr Johnson:

– Yes.

Mr SPEAKER:

– About ten days ago the Treasurer asked me whether a room could be spared in that part of the building for the erection of an Australian-made sheep-shearing machine. I asked the honorable gentleman as to the amount of space required, and, having ascertained what it was, I said that the machine might be stood in the room, which is not strictly a private room, but really the entrance to that side of the building. I may men-, tion, although it lias not been referred to by the honorable member for Lang, that I found that the machine was being placed in the corridor immediately opposite the door. Of course, it was impossible to allow that. I, therefore, gave instructions that it should be placed where it was intended to be placed - in the north lobby. I do not think that any inconvenience will- be caused to honorable members by the exhibit. So far as space may permit in that room, but not- in the corridors, which are reserved for the use of honorable members only, I shall be prepared to give leave for the .placing of any exhibit of a similar kind. With regard to the presence of strangers in the corridors, I may say that six weeks or two months ago I called a meeting of the House. Committee because of the lobbying which was taking place, not only in the Queen’s Hall, but in the immediate precincts of the Chamber -lobbying which seemed to me most objectionable,, and to which the members of any party in the House ought not to be subjected by strangers. The House’ Committee resolved that for the convenience of those persons who might desire to see honorable members, tables . and chairs should be placed in the Queen’s Hall. The Committee thought that was the nearest place to the Chamber where such intercourse ought to be allowed. At the same time notices were posted in the corridors asking honorable members not to introduce strangers to those portions of the building reserved for their own use. If, in spite of the request of the House Committee, honorable members have introduced strangers I am very sorry. That is a matter for honorable members themselves to consider. I cannot accept, and I am sure that the House Committee cannot accept, responsibility for the introduction of strangers in such circumstances, because it is impossible for the officers of the House to know for what purpose an honorable member may be- bringing a friend into a corridor.

Mr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA

– Mr. Speaker, following upon the question of the’ honorable member for Lang, I think it is only fair for me. to ask you whether you are -aware that the Standard Oil Trust of America have sent out a special commissioner, namely, Mr. Campbell, and that he has been taken into one. of the corner rooms in order. to lobby honorable members who sit on the same side of the House as does the honorable member for Lang?

Mr SPEAKER:

– I never heard of the matter before.

Mr Johnson:

– I ‘ have not heard of it either.

page 6593

QUESTION

CLOSURE

Mr BRUCE SMITH:

– I desire to ask the Prime Minister whether, with a view to hasten the progress of the Tariff, he will consider the propriety of adopting the suggestion of the Age newspaper, and apply the closure to the Opposition ?

Mr DEAKIN:
Minister for External Affairs · BALLAARAT, VICTORIA · Protectionist

– So far as the rules of the House have permitted, we have been applying the closure of common-sense and sound judgment to the Opposition, and we propose to continue that practice.

page 6593

QUESTION

CHINESE HELMETS FOR POSTAL OFFICIALS

Mr BATCHELOR:
BOOTHBY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– I desire to ask the Postmaster-General, without notice, whether it is true that the new head gear supplied to the Post and Telegraph Department in Adelaide consists of helmets made in China; and, if so, is it because there is no suitable head gear of Australian manufacture ?

Mr MAUGER:
Postmaster-General · MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA · Protectionist

– If the case is as the honorable member states it, there will be trouble. I am not aware that it is so. But I will make inquiries, and, if the facts are as related, will have the order cancelled, if that be possible.

page 6593

QUESTION

CRIMEA AND INDIAN MUTINY VETERANS

Sir JOHN FORREST:
SWAN, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

– I wish to ask the Prime Minister a question, without notice. I observed, with very much pleasure, that on Saturday last an entertainment was given to veterans who had taken part in the Crimea War and the Indian Mutiny. I was sorry to learn that several of those veterans are now in charitable institutions, where they have to spend the evening of their days. Iknowthat this is rather a State than a Commonwealth matter, but I wish to ask thePrime Minister whether he will make inquiries as to how many of these veterans are resident in indigent charitable institutions, and whether he will take into consideration the desirableness of doing something - either in co-operation with the States or in some other way - to make the evening of their lives as pleasant as possible for them ? I should be glad, and I am sure the country would be glad too, to see these old soldiers, who have fought the battles of the Empire, properly provided for. I shall, therefore, be very pleased if the Prime Minister will make inquiries as to how many of them in all the States of Australia are in receipt of aid in charitable institutions.

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

– I shall have much pleasure in endeavouring to obtain the information asked. My colleague, the Minister of Defence, who organized the festival for the veterans on Saturday, found, on inquiry, that a certainnumber of them were in charitable institutions, nearly all of whom were able to come. But, in addition, there were some bed-ridden or otherwise incapable of attending. Provision was made for them to be entertained in the institutions where they reside.

Mr MALONEY:

– Arising out of the Prime Minister’s answer to the question of the honorable member for Swan, I should like to ask him whether he is aware that it was discovered’ in England some years ago that many of the Balaclava veterans were in workhouses, and that an organized effort was made to better their condition and to make a more worthy exhibition of Christian kindness towards them?

Mr DEAKIN:

– I remember the fund being raised to which the honorable member refers.

page 6593

QUESTION

JAPANESE IRON INDUSTRY

Mr McDOUGALL:
WANNON, VICTORIA

– I should like to ask the Prime Minister, without notice, whether his attention has been called to the following paragraph published in the Age of9th April last -

Thereis a probability that a JapaneseAustralian iron and steel industry will be brought into existence very soon. The Investors’ Review stated in a recent issue, “A large steel plant, to cost some 35,000,000 dollars, is reported to be about to be erected in Japan, and all the machinery has been contracted for in the United States by Japanese agents. The greater part of it is to be delivered before the end of the present year.” From another source we learn that recently the Japanese Government sent emissaries to Australia to report on the iron deposits, with a view to their utilization inJapan. We are informed that these agents are now negotiating for supplies with the Blythe River iron mines of Tasmania.

I desire to know whether, so far as the Prime Minister is aware, there is any truth in that statement?

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

– In regard to the first statement I have only the authority which the honorable member has quoted ; but owing to information received from the honorable member for Laanecoorie I made some inquiries lastyear, which did go to show that Japanese Commissioners were travelling, one might say, all the world over, in order to study the undeveloped iron resources of various countries. They spent a considerable time in Australia, made careful inquiries into our iron resources, and, as I understood, obtained quotations for the supply of crude iron ore - that is to say, iron ore untreated and fresh from the mine.

page 6594

MANUFACTURES ENCOURAGEMENT BILL

Mr PALMER:
ECHUCA, VICTORIA

– I should like to ask the Prime Minister, without notice, if, in view of the fact that the Manufactures Encouragement Bill was carried by a large majority in this House, it is assumed by the Government that it is the intention of the House to carry all the clauses in that Bill, including clauses 8, 9, and 10, which are objectionable because of their socialistic tendency ?

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

– The confirmation given on the second reading of any Bill is to its principle. No House of Parliament has ever parted with its right to criticise freely and if necessary to amend in detail, in Committee the provisions of any measure. I have no doubt that, after the honorable member hears further explanations, he will be so satisfied with the wisdom of the proposals in the measure to which he refers that he will not seek to alter them.

– If equity and good conscience demand it, why not make a principle to fit these cases?

Mr EWING:

– I shall endeavour to deal with the matter as promptly as possible.

page 6594

QUESTION

GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, SYDNEY

Mr J H CATTS:
COOK, NEW SOUTH WALES

asked the Treasurer, upon notice-

What was the amount paid to the New South Wales Government Printing Officefor printing the report of the Colonial Conference and the report of Mr. Beale in connexion with Patent Medicines, respectively?
What is the value of Commonwealth printing executed by the New South Wales Government Printing Office from1st January to 31st October of the current year?
Is he aware that in many cases boys are engaged doing men’s work in the Government Printing Office, Sydney?
Is he aware that a married man with a wife and two children and ten years’ service, is being paid 25s. per week, and another, 30 years of age, with alarge family and sixteen years’ service, is in receipt of 35s. per week, and that in many instances wages are being paid which are not fair and reasonable?
Under such circumstances, will he consider the advisability of withholding any Commonwealth work from the Government Printing Office, Sydney, until the State Government see that existing sweating is abolished?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

– The Secretary to my Department has again written for an answer to these questions, and as soon as a reply has been received I shall be glad to put it before the honorable member. Perhaps it would be as well for him to repeat his question about four days hence.

page 6595

QUESTION

LIGHT HORSE BRIGADE CAMP

Mr STORRER:
for Mr. Harper

asked the Minister of Defence, upon notice -

What was the attendance of the commissioned officers from each regiment in the Light Horse Brigade Camp, which concluded on the 8th inst.?
What was the total number of commissioned officers in each regiment?
What was the cost of the Brigade Camp?
Was the camp held during the shearing season ?
Had commanding officers concerned reported in favour of the date selected for the camp? or, if not,
Had they been given an opportunity of doing so?
Does the Minister consider that it is keeping faith with the militia to prescribe an annual list of parades and training, with pay based on the number of parades attended, “and then to deprive them of any pay for the twelfth month, with the result that a man, instead of serving 36 months, only serves 33 - or serves 36, and is paid only for 33 ?
Is the Minister aware that the Light Horse Regiments are deprived of their Instructional Staff during June each year, as no travelling can he incurred during that month?

Mr EWING:
Protectionist

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow -

No Light Horse Brigade Camp has been held since May last, but a voluntary School of Instruction, in accordance with Standing. Orders, paragraphs 244 to 260, for officers and non commissioned officers of the 3rd Light Horse Brigade, was held at Seymour from the 29th October to the 8th November, inclusive.

Attendance of commissioned officers was as follows : -

In addition, two officers, Instructional Staff, and one officer, 6th A.I. Regiment, attended.

The number of officers in each regiment is as under : -

Cost of the voluntary School of Instruction, as set out in paragraph 1, was approximately £160. This includes cost for twenty-one N.C. officers and the “ C “ Instructional Cadre (24 men, 27 horses), and, in addition, the cost of railway transport for ‘ officers’ and N.C.O.s’ horses to and from the school, all allowances, rations, &c, also the return of the “ C “ Instructional Cadre to Melbourne by rail.
Some of the officers of the 3rd Light Horse Brigade might have been engaged in shearing during the currency of the school, but the time of holding the school was evidently justified by the numbers who attended, which were as many as could be individually instructed and supervised at one time as prescribed by Standing Orders. The number who attended was greater than at any previous Light Horse School.
No. See answer to 6.
Yes. The proposals for the school were published in District Orders some time prior to the date of holding it, and ample opportunity was thereby afforded to Commanding Officers to make any representations as to the date being unsuitable if they so desired, but none were made.

This school was first proposed to be held in September last, prior to the shearing season, but owing to the small numbers who signified their intention of attending, it was postponed until October.

The Commanding Officer, 3rd Light Horse Brigade, visited this school, and expressed himself as satisfied with everything in connexion with it.

I am informed it has been the custom, in order to comply with the instructions of the Treasury Department, that all accounts are to be settled before the 30th June of each year, not to hold parades duringJune, and to devote that month to the compilation of financial and other returns required to be rendered before the close of the financial year.

No hardship is involved by these arrangements.

Ample opportunities are given to earn the maximum pay allowed during the remaining eleven months, and no complaints have been received at District Headquarters regarding this matter.

No day parades are held in June owing to the short duration of daylight in that month.

Consequent upon (7) no parades being held’ during June, the Instructional Staff are employed during that month in supervising the preparation of the various returns referred to in. (7).

Further inquiries will be made, and the matters referred to dealt with.

page 6596

QUESTION

TARIFF

In Committee of Ways and Means (Consideration resumed from 25th November, vide page 6590) :

Postponed item 159. Nails, viz. : -

Horse-shoe nails, per cwt. (General Tariff),8s. 3d. ; (United Kingdom), 7s. 6d.

Brads (including moulders’ and glaziers’) ; Picture Nails; Rail-dogs or Brobs; Spikes; Staplesn.e.i.; Tacks n.e.i. ; Wire and other Nails n.e.i., per cwt. (General Tariff), 5s. 6d. ; (United Kingdom), 5s.

Mr. DUGALD THOMSON (North Sydney [1 1.25]. - The duty on horseshoe nails is higher than was proposed under the original Kingston Tariff. When that Tariff was under consideration, the Committee decided, after a long debate, that there was no justification for the proposed duty, and reduced it from 7s. to 5s. per cwt. The Government now propose that the duty on horseshoe nails from the United Kingdom be 7s. 6d. per cwt., and that the imports from foreign countries shall be dutiable at 8s. 3d. per cwt. Those imposts are, to my mind, out of all proportion. Although it was said that the industry would be destroyed by the reduction of the duty from 7s. to 5s. per cwt., the evidence given before the Tariff Commission by the sole manufacturer in the Commonwealth, was that in a late year he had an output of 15,000 boxes, which constituted a record for him, and that additions had also been made to his factory. Thus even from the protectionist stand-point, the old rate of duty ought to be ample.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– The former duty was equal to 20 per cent., whilst that now proposed is equivalent to 30 per cent. Import and other charges amount to 12 per cent., so that the total protection proposed to the industry is equal to about 42 per cent. The evidence of the one manufacturer of horseshoe nails in Australia was that he desired a duty in order that he might be able to increase the price, and that if he could raise his selling price by 2s. 6d. per cwt, or £210s. per ton, he would be satisfied. Such an increase would fall entirely upon the farriers of Australia, who would not be able to charge more than they do at present for shoeing.

Mr Watkins:

– Are these nails made chiefly by machinery?

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– Yes. In answer to question No. 68,852, the manufacturer, when before the Commission, said that he employed twenty hands, and were the whole of the horseshoe nails used in, Australia locally made employment would be found for only from sixty to seventy men and boys. If an increase in the old duty is required, then the industry is not worth maintaining. I am satisfied, however, that, according to the evidence given before the Commission, the old rate of duty will be sufficient to support the industry. The local factory has been increased in size at least once since the imposition of the first Federal Tariff.

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

– Not the nail-making part of the factory. This manufacturer produces other goods.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– I can only say that, according to the evidence, the factory has been increased on five different occasions, and once since the imposition of the first Federal Tariff. It is very questionable whether we should increase the cost of these nails to all the users in Australia for the sake of so small an industry. It is doubtful whether even a duty of 5s. per cwt. is justifiable, but, recognising that the local manufacture is in existence and supplying about one-third, or a little more, of the horseshoe nails required in Australia, I, for one, would not go back upon it. Such an impost, however, is quite as much as the users of these nails should have to bear. I propose to move -

That, after the figures “ 8s. 3d.,” paragraph a, the words, “ and on and after 26th November, 1907,per cwt. (General Tariff), 5s.,” be inserted.

Mr McDougall:

– To give them a chance to support themselves.

Mr BRUCE SMITH:

– That is even better for my argument, because I propose to show that a dutyof 5s. per cwt. has not only enabled those engaged in this industry to support themselves but to considerably increase their business. According to the statement of the honorable member for North Sydney, based upon evidence given before the Royal Commission, they are at present producing nearly one-third of the whole of the horseshoe nails used in Australia.

Mr Storrer:

– They commenced operations with a 14s. duty under the Victorian Tariff.

Mr BRUCE SMITH:

– I am not going back to antedeluvian times. Five years is a fair period within which to judge whether an industry is going to be a success. The present duty, with charges, is equal to 30 or 35 per cent.

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

– Nonsense.

Mr BRUCE SMITH:

– I shall read the part of the Commission’s report which shows that. It says -

The net cost f.o.b. in England of horseshoe nails is about £25 per ton.

The net cost f.o.b. in England of horseshoe nails is about £25 per ton. The landed cost with all charges added is from £32 15s. to £34. The present duty amounts to 20 per cent. of the invoice price and the present duty and charges together amount to an increase on the English cost of from 30 to 35 per cent.

The honorable member for Laanecoorie asked me for the. evidence, and this evidence will be found at page 2366 of the Tariff Commission’s Report. On the 27th March, 1906, Benjamin George Paddle, manufacturers’ representative, of 418 George-street, Sydney, sworn and examined, said -

The laid-down cost of imported horseshoe nails averages £34 per ton; and a similar assortment of Victorian nails would cost £42 per ton. Importing charges amount to from 30 per cent. to 35 per cent. on the invoice value; and if horse nails cannot be made properly under these circumstances, it would appear that the existence of such an industry was not justified.

– They do.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I assure the honorable member for Bass that they do not, according to the evidence of the maker here. He alleges, as has been done many times before by Australian manufacturers, that it is simply owing to prejudice, and nothing else, that his nails do not come into general use. He told the Commission -

It would appear that the users in that State -

New South Wales - had become so accustomed to the imported nails and satisfied as to their quality that they were not prepared to do more than give the Victorian nail a trial. They did not to any extent give repeat orders, notwithstanding the inducement offered by a price lower than that charged under like conditions in Victoria.

It appears, therefore, that that man cuts the price in New South Wales, and yet they will not take his nails.

Mr Fuller:

– He cut the price lower in Tasmania, where he used to dump them.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– He adds-

Endeavours were made by the witness to deal direct with farriers by means of a traveller from the works and a local agent, but still the trade did not come, and the cost of distribution by that method was found to be too heavy.

Apparently, therefore, he has tried every conceivable plan to get the people in the other States to use his nails, and, for the most part, they still prefer those which come from Norway, Sweden, and Great Britain. Honorable members will see from the evidence that there really is a very substantial reason for the preference which is given to some nails over others. As a rule, there is no accounting for tastes, but in this case there appears to be a solid basis for the preference. It relates to the process by which the nails are manufactured. It seems there is a new process in the Old Country and on the Continent, known as the cold process, whereas in Australia, I understand, Mr. Pender simply employs the hot-forge method. There would seem, therefore, to be nothing more than preference or inclination of the users to account for the placing of orders sometimes in Australia and sometimes abroad.

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

– The hot-forge method produces the superior nail.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I should like to know whether the Government Whip, even as a protectionist, would deprive people of the opportunity of obtaining a good article or from indulging their preference? Does the honorable member desire to shut out altogether nails made by the cold process ? If so, where does the liberty of the buyer come in? We must not forget that there is only one nail-maker in Australia, Mr. Pender; and he told the Tariff Commission, in plain language, that he hoped to secure from the increased duty an additional profit of 2s. 6d. per cwt.

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

– Not by increasing the price, but by getting increased trade.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Does the honorable member suggest that increased trade will give him an advantage of 2s. 6d. per cwt. in price?

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

– There would be no additional cost for the factory or hands.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

-At any rate, Mr. Fender was very frank with the Committee.

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

– He was quite right in what he said.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– If Mr. Pender was quite right, what becomes of the honorable member’s repeated statement that protection cheapens articles to the consumer ?

Mr Coon:

– So it does; and that has been the effect in the case of nails.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– From that 1 gather that the Australian manufacturer is to get a bigger price by selling his nails at a cheaper rate?

Mr Coon:

– Let the honorable member read the evidence.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

- Mr. Pender told the Commission that he expected to get 2s. 6d. per cwt more. Where from?

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

– Profit; a man can make 50 cwts. at a proportionately cheaper rate than he can make 1 cwt.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– But if purchasers be confined to the goods of one manufacturer, is the price likely to be made lower or higher? Has Mr. Pender some superiorkind of human nature? Is he the one man in Australia who is prepared to make nails on purely philanthropic lines, or is he not likely to do what every other business man does, namely, get as much profit as the market will permit? At any rate, the fact remains that Mr. Pender makes only onethird of the nails consumed in Australia ; and, clearly, if we increase the duty we shall increase the price of two-thirds of the nails which cannot be produced here, or which are not produced here at the present time.

Mr Hutchison:

– That is better.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I should imagine that if a local manufacturer can meet one-third of the total requirements, there is room for competition. If I could see competition, there would not be so much to say, but there does not appear to be any on the horizon. Mr. Pender has all the local manufacture to himself, and if we put a ring fence around one man, then, as day follows night, the price will be increasedto the consumer, there being no motive to so shape the manufactures as to meet the tastes and preferences of the people. If a man desires nails -which have been made by the cold process no legislation under heaven ought to prevent him from obtaining them.

Mr Mathews:

– Not if hepays for them.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– But, at what rate? If the price be too high, the purchaser must sink his preference, and accept nails which he thinks are not suitable for his purpose. We have no right to interfere with purchasers in that way. This is not a matter of fiscalism - it goes beyond fiscalism. All we have a right to do is to so order our protective arrangements as to give the purchaser a fair preference between one class of nails and another. It is significant that Mr. Pender could not be got to say one word about the wages cost of his production, and, so far as I can see, his evidence appears to have been that of a very unsatisfactory witness.

Mr Mathews:

– That is perhaps because Mr. Pender did not give evidence to suit the honorable member.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member for Melbourne Ports ought not to make a remark of that kind. Mr. Pender refused, as I have said, to give any evidence regarding the wages cost of his production, but he, at the same time, volunteered evidence as to the wages cost in other countries.

Mr McDougall:

– What is the use of a Royal Commission unless witnesses are compelled to give evidence?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– A Royal Commission cannot compel a man to give evidence against his will. Of course, a witness, under such circumstances, may be fined or sent to gaol ; but I apprehend that a Royal Commission takes a sensible course when the matter is not pressed. We know that in a Court of Law, when a man refuses to give evidence because he thinks it may injure his case, the fact is certainly not counted in his favour. The refusal of Mr. Pender is significant, in view of the fact that he was prepared to give evidence which was not wanted in regard to the wages cost elsewhere. He would not give the amount of work done on piece-work in Victoria, or any other data, on which the Commission might have arrived at the wages cost ; but he went on to say that the labour cost in Canada, which is not a competing country, is 5s.10d., as compared with 8s.10d. in Victoria. Is not that absurd evidence? What did the Commission require to know about a noncompeting country? No more unsatisfactory evidence could have been furnished to the Commission by any man; and, therefore, I think that Mr. Pender’s statements then made ought to be dismissed. There is already a substantial protective duty on horseshoe nails, and the duty, added to the cost of importation, is a very heavy imposition. Under the circumstances, the only local manufacturer ought to be able to compete; and an increased duty would only inflict an unnecessary penalty on users throughout Australia.

Mr SALMON:
Laanecoorie

– The honorable member for Parkes, when quoting from some documents, said that he was reading evidence; and I challenged him on the point. For a long time, the honorable member would not give me any satisfaction.

Mr Bruce Smith:

– 1 gave the honorable member the page.

Mr SALMON:

– I asked whether the honorable member was reading evidence or a portion of the report of the Commission!; and when I pressed the matter he appeared to be somewhat disturbed. I can assure the honorable member’ that all I desired to know was what document he was reading from.

Mr Bruce Smith:

– lt would take a better man than the honorable member to disturb me !

Mr SALMON:

– Then I have been judging by appearances again, and may have been deceived. In” reference to what was read by the honorable member”, there are, in my opinion, a few brief sentences in the report of the A section of the Royal Commission which I think the Committee should hear. On page 27 of Progress Report, No. 9, section XVII., having reference to horseshoe nails, there is. the following -

The Victorian manufacturer intimated that he was induced to - leave Canada and start the industry in Victoria by the then existing duty of 12s. per cwt. That duty was increased in 1893 to 14s. per cwt., and remained in force until Federation took place. His business increased under the old Tariff, and his factory was enlarged four times. Under that Tariff prices had been as low to the consumer in Victoria as elsewhere ; but they were higher than the rates now ruling.

He asserted that the present low duty of 5s. per cwt. had so affected the industry that’ onefifth of his nail-making plant had never been started. Although he had npt lost trade, he had reduced his price list on two occasions, amounting in all to 1¾d. per lb., and his profits had been thereby reduced bv about id. a lb. According to the .statement of the witness, it was owing to the assurance of the first Prime Minister of the Commonwealth that he would favour raising revenue without destroying local industries, that the witness enlarged his buildings, plant, &c, to nearly double their former proportions.

– The honorable member is making a great mistake about the price of nails in Tasmania.” If he looks at page 2351 of the evidence he will find that.

Mr FULLER:

– I propose to quote from the evidence to substantiate the position of free-trade members of the Commission, and that of the honorable member for Parkes. I quote from the evidence at page 2373, question 83742.

Can you tell us what the freight is on the importation of a ton of nails from London to Melbourne? - When I said that we principally imported Hamilton nails, I ought to say that we also import Globe and Capewell nails, both of which are of English make.

Do you import those in large quantities? - Yes.

Can you tell us what the freight and other charges are on a ton of those nails from London to Sydney? - I refer to some figures that were given in the Sydney Evening News and the Telegraph- on the matter - figures which were set out in the Evening News on 9th February, and I fmd they are practically correct. I have an original invoice here from London, showing that the figures are substantially correct.

Have you any objection to our seeing that invoice? - Not the slightest, although I do not think it ought to be published in the newspapers. The invoice, which is dated London, 27th October, 1905, and was sent to our London house, is as follows : -

I do not propose to weary the Committee by reading the items in the invoice. It simply shows that the maximum discount for large quantities is 70 per cent, and 5 per cent. The invoice shows a net London cost of ^24 us. 9d., which is half the quantity booked. The cost here would be about £32 15s. The evidence goes on: -

Does that include freight and insurance? - Yes.

And what else? - Wharfage, duty, cartage, and exchange.

How much per cent, does that come to on the invoiced cost? - Practically between 30 and 35 per cent.

That was under the old duty. So that the position of the one nail manufacturer of Victoria was that in addition to the duty he had this protection in connexion with freight, charges and insurance of 33J per cent. I remind honorable members that Mr. Rupert Clarke is well known to be one of the most experienced business men in the city of Sydney. I point out further that for years and years the local firm has exported nails, not only to Tasmania and New South Wales, but also to New Zealand ; they are at the present time, and have, been ever since the Federal Tariff came into existence, exporting nails to New Zealand, where they pay duty .and sell in competition with nails imported from other parts of the world.

Mr Salmon:

– Did the honorable member read Mr. Rupert Clarke’s statement that he had not worked out the figures exactly ?

Mr FULLER:

– His statement was: -

T would point “out that I have not worked out these figures exactly, having received notice to attend only last night.

– I move -

That, after the figures “8s. 3d.,” paragraph a, the words, “ and on and after 26th November, 1907, per cwt. (General Tariff), 6s.,” be inserted.

If this amendment be carried I shall move that the duty, in the case of imports from the United Kingdom, be 5s. per cwt. I think that my proposal should, to some extent, meet the views of honorable members opposite.

Sir JOHN QUICK:
Bendigo

– I hope that the amendment will be rejected. The very lowest duty that we should impose is 7s. 6d. per cwt., but if honorable members wish to grant a preference to Great Britain, that suggested by the Government is a fair and reasonable one.

Question - That after the figures “ 8s. 3d.,” paragraph a, the words “ and on and after 26th November, 1907, per cwt. (General Tariff) 6s.,” be inserted - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 0

NOES: 39

Majority … …” 26

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Mr WILKS:
Dalley

.- I move -

That after the figures “ 8s. 3d.,” paragraph a, the words “ and on and after 26th November, 1907, per cwt. (General Tariff), 7s.,” be inserted.

If this amendment be carried I shall subsequently move in favour of fixing the duty for the United Kingdom at 6s. per cwt. A little while ago, when an industry in New South Wales in which only one man was interested was under consideration, the honorable member for Flinders warned us that we ought to look very carefully into the matter. But we. have heard no such warning from him in reference to the horse-shoe nail industry in which only one man is interested, and it is somewhat significant that this is a Victorian industry. A duty of 7s. per cwt. would represent an increase of about 40 per cent. upon the rate operative under the old Tariff. Surely such an increase ought to be sufficient even for a Victorian industry.

Question put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 14

NOES: 36

Majority … … 22

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Amendment (by Mr. Joseph Cook) put -

That, after the figures “ 8s. 3d.,” paragraph

A, the words “ and on and after 26th November, 1907, per cwt. (General Tariff), 7s. 6d.,” be inserted.

The Committee divided.

AYES: 20

NOES: 30

Majority … … 10

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Mr MAHON:
Coolgardie

.- The proposal of the Government involves an increase of 50 per cent. upon the old rate of duty. Personally, I think that the duty under the general Tariff should not exceed 8s., and, consequently, I move -

That, after the figures “8s. 3d.,” paragraph a, the words “ and on and after 26th November, 1907, per cwt. (General Tariff), 8s.,” be inserted.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment (by Mr. Joseph Cook) put -

That, after the figures “ 7s. 6d.,” paragraph a, the words “ and on and after 26th November, 1907, per cwt. (United Kingdom), 7s.,” be inserted.

The Committee divided.

AYES: 16

NOES: 34

Majority … … 18

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Amendment (by Mr. Mahon) put -

That, after the figures “ 7s. 6d.,” paragraph a, the words “ and on and after 26th November, 1907, per cwt. (United Kingdom), 7s. 3d.,” be inserted.

The Committee divided.

AYES: 19

NOES: 31

Majority … … 12

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Sitting suspended from 1.25 to 3 p.m.

Mr JOHNSON:
Lang

.- These duties, like many other high protective duties in the Tariff, have already led to the combination of local manufacturers for the purpose of increasing prices. I find that although the actual importations of the nails included in paragraph b from the United Kingdom increased between 1903 and 1906, the percentage of the British importations to the total importation decreased. In 1903 the importations from the United Kingdom were 22,752 cwt., about 28.3. per cent. of the total importations, which were 80,340 cwt., Germany sending 28,847 cwt., the United States of America 20,482 cwt., and all other countries 8,259cwt.In1906 the importations from Great Britain were 28,104 cwt., 25.8 per cent. of the total importations, which were 104,967 cwt., Germany sending 42,120 cwt., the United States of America 23,472 cwt., and all other countries 10,271 cwt. The exports from Australia, however, increased from 361 cwt. in 1903 to 720 cwt. in 1906, that is, they almost doubled themselves within three years. While in 1906 the importations were 104,967 cwt., the total output of eight factories was about 300,000 cwt.

Mr Tudor:

– Where does the honorable member get those figures?

Mr JOHNSON:

- Mr. Gold, giving evidence before the Tariff Commission - page 2393 - questions 69423-4 - said -

Of the eight factories, one alone, by no means the largest, has an output of 50,000 cwt. ayear, The total output of the local factories, therefore, is about 300,000 cwt., while the imports for 1906 were 104,000 cwt.

Mr JOHNSON:

– I have no intention to traverse the general question of combines, or to say whether they are right or wrong. I wished merely to direct the attention of the Treasurer to the fact that we have passed legislation to prevent the operation of combines acting in restraint of trade, and that there is a combine in connexion with this particular industry whose operations are injurious to the public. I put that forward as one of my objections to the proposed increase of duty. I have no wish to enable the combine in this industry to be more injurious to the public by becoming more firmly entrenched in the monopoly which it at present enjoys. For the reasons I have given, I move -

That, after the figures “ 5s. 6d.,” paragraph b, the words “ and on’ and after 27th November, 1907, per cwt. (General Tariff), 3s. 6d.,” be in.serted.

It is my intention, should the amendment be passed, to move that the duty be 3s. on imports from the United Kingdom.

Mr HEDGES:
Fremantle

.–I do not complain of the inclusion in this item of such articles as picture nails, tacks, and wire nails, or that they should be dutiable at the rates proposed ; but I think it is not fair to include in the same item such articles as bridge spikes and raildogs. I point out that several packets of tacks might be made from the material in one bridge spike or rail-dog. In the circumstances, it is almost ridiculous to propose that the same duty should be imposed on bridge spikes and . rail-dogs as on tacks and picture nails. I wish to move, as an amendment, the omission of the words “rail-dogs or brobs, spikes,” with a view to moving the insertion of the following new item -

Rail-dogs or brobs, and spikes, per cwt. (General Tariff), 3s. 3d. ; (United Kingdom), 3s.

Amendment (Mr. Johnson’s), by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment (by Mr. Hedges) proposed -

That the words “rail-dogs or brobs; spikes,” be left out.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– I do not rise to oppose the amendment submitted by the honorable member for Fremantle, but to point out that -while there may be justification for the amendment, there is certainly justification for a reduction of the proposed duty on the whole line of goods included in this item. It does not stand on the same footing as the item with which we have just dealt. In connexion with the last item there was only one maker, and it was difficult, if not impossible, to obtain information as to what profit he was making. There are many makers of wire nails. There are at least eight factories in the Commonwealth, and there is evidence that they employ at the’ present time nearly three times the number of hands engaged in the industry when the 1902 Tariff was passed. That is evidence that the industry is successful, and is paying under the duty imposed by the last Tariff. As a matter of fact, since the last Tariff came into operation, two factories have been started in New South Wales.

Sir William Lyne:

– And the owners of both are complaining. At least one of them came to me as a deputation, complaining that importers were dumping wire nails from Germany at a lower price than that at which the local manufacturers can import the material to make the articles in Australia.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– The Treasurer speaks as if a request from a manufacturer for an increased duty were a proof that She, increase is necessary. With the present Government, it is altogether too much a case of “ Ask and ye shall receive.” Apparently no inquiry is made, the Treasurer does not require to be satisfied as to the real need for an increased duty, and it is sufficient merely that a request for an increase “should be made. Two factories were started in New South Wales since the Tariff of 1902 was imposed, and another is just about to be started. One was started in South Australia under the same Tariff, and one is about to be started in Western Australia. That is pretty good evidence that profits are being made in the industry. I have a balance-sheet here - and I believe it is not by any means the best that could be shown in the industry - which shows that one concern engaged partly in the- manufacture of wire nails and partly in the. manufacture of barbed wire, made a profit of ^2,092 on a capital of .£12,250. That represent* a profit of oyer 16 per cent.

Mr Tudor:

– What is the name. of the company ?

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– I do not care to mention names. The honorable member can see the balance-sheet if he wishes. 1 think that the names of companies and individuals are mentioned too freely in this Chamber. The rush of people into this business is an evidence that there is profit to be derived from it.

Sir William Lyne:

– The enormous importations do not suggest that.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– More than double the quantity is made locally. The fact that the number of hands engaged in the industry has been increased three-fold since the Tariff of 1902 came into force is the best possible evidence that the duties imposed by that Tariff were ample to bring about an increase in the business, to secure more and more of the local trade, and to give profitable returns to those engaged in the industry. The Treasurer referred just now to dumping in connexion with this item, but we bear a great deal about dumping that is altogether inaccurate. I should like to refer the Committee to a statement concerning dumping in connexion with some of these local companies, given in sworn evidence before the Tariff Commission in answer to question 68589. A witness was asked - .

Are you selling cheaper here or in Svdney? - In New Smith Wales.

By nearly 2s. per cwt., are you not? - No.

I am speaking of the run of the gauges, not of any particular gauge? - We sell at is. per cwt., f.o.b., less for Sydney than we do for Melbourne.

Then you have done with them, when they ]lft Ve left Melbourne? - Yes.

There is an illustration of dumping. In the answers given to other questions, it is shown that the companies engaged in this Industry have combined to fix selling prices. Question 68604 was -

Have you a schedule price with, the other makers here? -

The answer was -

Yes, we all sell at the same price.

What I have said is good evidence that the business was a very profitable one under the 3s. duty. Whatever doubts honorable members, may have had as to whether the industry of horse-shoe nail-making was profitable or not under the old duty, there is strong evidence that we ought not to increase the duty in this case. As the honorable member for Fremantle is in favour of the exclusion of some of the items, I hope that he will also see his way to vote for a more reasonable duty on the’ whole item than that proposed bv the Government.

Mr COON:
Batman

.- The strongest argument in favour of the increased duty is the fact that last year ^71,890 worth of nails came from Great

Britain, where the wage in connexion with the industry is about 15s. a week. In giving evidence before a Commission appointed in the Old Country, one witness said that the duty they required was the same as obtained in Germany and the United States in order to keep foreign nails from entering. That is what thev are asking for in free-trade Great Britain, where they are paying 15s. a week against our 4.1s. 6d. a week wage. It is clear proof that the extra duty is required when we have to compete under those conditions.

Mr FULLER:
Illawarra

– I should like to hear something from the Minister on this question..

Sir William Lyne:

– I want to get to a division.

Mr FULLER:

– Honorable members are entitled to know reasons why the Minister’s proposal for an increase of duty should be adopted. . It has been clearly proved that the old duty amounted to about 40 per cent, on the invoice value of the goods. To that must be added the insurance, freight, and other charges on bringing goods to Australia. When, therefore, it is proposed to about double the old duty, the Committee ;s entitled to some explanation. The honorable member for Lang drew attention to the existence of a combine in order to fix the price amongst the Australian’ nail manufacturers. Evidence to that effect was given, not by one manufacturer only, but by several. The first to give evidence was Mr. MacDougall, who stated distinctly that they had a schedule, and all sold at the same price. The next witness was Mr. Gold. On page 2302 of the Tariff Commission’s Minutes of Evidence, appears the following - 69413. I am talking ‘about the ordinary wire nail. Cannot the Austral Nail Company turn them out? - I am not going to let them have all the trade. 69414. Are you underselling them? - No, we practically sell at the same price.

– That is a nice confession to make.

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– T am quite capable of deciding how to decide in regard to this question without the assistance of the honorable member. Iri reference to nails, wire and other, I shall support the increased duty, which I may say is supported, not only by protectionists in Victoria, but also strongly by Mr. Symon Hill, of 99 York-street, Sydney,’ the representative of the Acme Manufacturing Works, Pyramont. In his evidence, Mr. Hill said-

The pioneers of the industry were brought ti> a standstill through lack of capital, and the extensive import of nails from Germany and the United States of America.

We have not paid a dividend, and I cannot see any prospect of our doing so while the present Tariff obtains. The market is flooded with nails made in other countries, and exported here at about ns. per ton higher than the raw material costs in these countries, as this, difference of ns. per ton would not cover ihe cost of casing, cartooning, labelling, and weighing even in these countries.

The quantity of nails imported into New South Wales is about 3,000 tons per annum. ‘Our present capacity is equal to about 1,000 tons when the machines are fully employed. With) a Tariff of ^5 per ton we would at once put up the necessary plant and engage the requisite labour to meet the demand consequent upon the stoppage of imports.

– How is it then that the local manufacturers have supplied two-thirds of the nails used in Australia?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– I am only telling theCommittee that these persons produced their invoices and gave me full particulars. I asked the Department to see if they could find the invoices, but they have not been able to do so. I forget the name of the company, but their representatives convinced me at that time that it was a crying shame that wire nails should be dumped into Australia at a price less than that at which the material to make them could be obtained.

Mr HANS IRVINE:
GRAMPIANS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910

– I desire to inform the Treasurer that a director of a. Melbourne Wire Nail Making Company has assured me that for years, under the old duty of 3s. per cwt., they have been paying dividends of from 15 to 18 per cent. Does the honorable gentleman mean to tell me that in those circumstances it is necessary to fix the duty at 5s. 6d. per cwt. in the general Tariff, and at 5s. in the preferential Tariff? This director, who is known personally to many honorable members, told me that his company do not want an additional duty, but are quite satisfied with the old duty.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– What are a couple of shillings per cwt. ?

Mr HANS IRVINE:
GRAMPIANS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910

– It is a lot of money, especially when it has to be paid by poor persons. In this country everybody more or less uses nails. No matter where a man may go he will find that nails are used as commonly as shoes are used. It is the working man who has to pay the duty on these articles. Some honorable members are apparently trying to build up a monopoly. The proposal of the Government means not protection, but prohibition. I am utterly opposed to it, because I think that it will be quite sufficient to revert to the old duty. In any case I would not support a duty of more than 5s. in the general Tariff, and 4s. in the preferential Tariff, and that is 1s. per cwt. more than I think ought to be paid.

Mr TILLEY BROWN:
INDI, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC

.- I agree with the last speaker who has corroborated the statement I made at an earlier hour to-day that the South Melbourne factory does not want a duty imposed at all. It is quite clear to me that now we have got into the division relating to metals and machinery, there is a deliberate attempt to impose duties upon the people for the purposes of revenue. We have clear evidence to the effect that the bulk of these manufacturers are doing well and do not need an additional duty.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment (by Mr. Johnson) put-

That, after the figures “ 5s. 6d.,” paragraph b, the words, ‘” and on and after 27th November, 1907, per cwt. (General Tariff), 3s. 6d.,” be inserted.

The Committee divided..

AYES: 17

NOES: 41

Majority … … 24

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Amendment (by Mr. Johnson) put -

That after the figures “ 5s. 6d.,” paragraph b, the words “ and on and after 27th November, 1907, per cwt. (General Tariff), 4s.,” be inserted.

The Committee divided.

AYES: 17

NOES: 41

Majority … … 24

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Amendment (by Mr. Fuller) proposed -

That, after the figures “ 5s. 6d.,” paragraph b, the words “ and on and after 27th November, 1907, per cwt. (General Tariff), 4s. 6d.,” be inserted.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– I desire honorable members to know what relation the duty proposed by the Government bears to the number of hands employed in the industry, and the wages paid. The consumption of Australia is about 15,000 tons, of which about 7,000 tons are imported. At the duty now proposed - 5s. per cwt. - the cost to the consumer amounts to £5 per ton, or £75,000. At the duty of 3s. which was previously imposed,the taxation amounted to £45,000. That duty was pretty fully taken advantage of because the makers were combined, and just underquoted the imported article. The increase we propose to give - that is, an in crease of 2s. per ton - means an additional payment of £30,000. The whole of the wages paid in the State of Victoria, according to the Factory Inspector’s return, amount to £13,700 odd per annum - that is to say, 168 hands at 31s. 6d. per week. If we take it that Victoria makes only a third of the whole manufacture of Australia, though I believe she makes more than half, the total wages paid in the Commonwealth would amount to not more than £40,000. As the makers took advantage of the previous duty of £3 per ton, we may take it that they will go practically up to the English price at the increased duty. That is to say, they will take advantage of the consumers to the extent of about £45,000, whilst the whole of the wages paid in Australia do not exceed £40,000.

Question - That after the figures “5s. 6d.,” paragraph b, the words “and on and after 27th November, 1907, per cwt. (General Tariff) 4s. 6d.” be inserted - put:

The Committee divided.

AYES: 18

NOES: 38

Majority … … 20

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Amendment (by Mr. Wilson) put -

That after the figures “ 5s. 6d.,” paragraph b, the words “and on and after 27th November, 1907, per cwt. (General Tariff), 5s.,” be inserted.

The Committee divided.

AYES: 15

NOES: 37

Majority … … 22

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Mr JOHNSON:
Lang

. -I move-

That after the figure . “ 5s.,” paragraph b, the words, “ and on and after 27th November, 1907, per cwt. (United Kingdom), 3s.,” be added.

Three shillings per cwt. was the duty under the old Tariff, and I wish to give those honorable members who are pledged not in any way to interfere with that Tariff an opportunity to redeem their promise when on the hustings.

Amendment negatived.

Amendment (by Mr. Wilson) put -

That after the figure “5s.,” paragraph b, the words, “ and on and after 27th November, 1907, per cwt. (United Kingdom), 4s.,” be added.

The Committee divided.

AYES: 17

NOES: 37

Majority … … 20

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Amendment (by Mr. Hedges) agreed to-

– This is a Tariff framed in the interests of the towns and cities, and greatly in the interest of the two chief cities of Australia. The tanks on which it is proposed to put a duty will continue to be imported, however much wemay tax them, and the impost will be passed on to those who purchase them here. Thus, by agreeing to the duty, we shall b.: increasing the burdens of those whoare least able to bear taxation. Although this is a protectionist Tariff in some respects as it affects the large cities, it is a crushingly heavy revenue Tariff as it affects the country districts, and .will make a fine inroad into the earnings of the poor.

Mr HANS IRVINE:
GRAMPIANS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910

– They are the sole persons who will be taxed by the present: duty.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr BATCHELOR:
BOOTHBY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ALP

.- I move -

That thewords “and on and after 27th November, 1907, free,” be added.

.- The only reason advanced by the honorable member for Bendigo why these tanks should be dutiable, was that the farmers can get them cheaply. That is a good reason from - the stand-point of certain members of the Committee, with whom it is a crime to allow the farmers to obtain anything cheaply. Another reason advanced in support of the duty, is that these tanks are necessary to people in the back country, to the pioneers who have to cart water from one end of the year to the other. A further reason suggested is that they are not required about towns. These reasons will, no doubt, be sufficient to induce certain honorable members to support the proposed duty. That anything which will be of use to the farmers should be put on the free list, would be something quite unusual in this Committee. These tanks would not come into competition with galvanized iron tanks locally-made to the extent suggested. They are* very useful for carting water; and who would think of carting water in a galvanized iron tank? As I believe that the numbers are up in favour of the amendment, I need say no more.

Mr SPENCE:
Darling

.- Amongst all the by-products of commerce - to use the term quoted by the honorable member for Laanecoorie - I should say that the square iron tank is one of the most valuable that comes to Australia. It competes with the galvanized-iron tank only to a very small extent indeed. I look upon these tanks as a necessity in the back country. A fact which impressed me,, and which I think should impress the Treasurer, is that at one time of drought in

New South Wales, the whole of the water supply for Cobar had to be brought by rail. I represented the district in the New South Wales Parliament at the time, and I know that if it had not been for the use of these tanks, the Railway Department would have been unable to supply the water required. Water was carried in these tanks a distance of 120 miles. It was a case of life and death when a wire was sent at the last minute that water was required, and it was conveniently carried by the Railway Department in these square iron tanks. They do not come into competition with the galvanized iron tanks, and there is no substitute for them throughout the country districts. At Cobar these square tanks are used to carry water from the taps to the outside portions of the town where the water is not laid on. On pastoral properties they are used as fire appliances, and I have seen them used on sleds for bringing water up to the house. The Treasurer will see that this is purely a revenue duty. It will not be protective. It will not cause any more galvanized iron to be used. If the duty is added to the cost, it will mean an extra tax on people in the country who must use these tanks.

Mr WYNNE:
Balaclava

.-The view I take with reference to these tanks is the same as I hold regarding packages in which goods come. Let us have whatever duty we think fit on the articles themselves, but let us not charge the packages or coverings. These malt tanks are very useful. We should regard it as a very petty tax if people in England put a tax on our butter boxes, our wheat or flour bags, or wool bales.

Mr Salmon:

– England is a free-trade country.

Mr WYNNE:

– Take any other country the honorable member likes.

Mr Salmon:

– Other countries do put a duty on.

Mr WYNNE:

– If a package of crockeryware comes into this country, I am told that the Customs Department actually assesses the straw in which the goods are packed, and imposes a duty on it. That sort of thing is too small, and ought to be beneath the dignity of this country.

Question - That the words “ and on and after 27 th November, free “ (Mr. Batchelor’s amendment) be added - put. The Committee divided. .

AYES: 36

NOES: 19

Majority … … 17

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Amendment agreed to.

Item, as amended, agreed to.

Postponed item 161. Weighing Machines; Weighbridges ; Scales, n.e.i.; including Adding and Computing Machines, and all attachments; Cash Registers; Chemists’ Counter Scales; Spring Balances and Steel-yards; Weights n.e.i., ad val., 20 per cent.

Mr JOHNSON:
Lang

– I desire to move the adoption of a duty of 15 per cent. as regards the United Kingdom.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

.- I have a prior amendment. I move -

That after the figures “20 per cent.,” the words “ and on and after 27th November, 1907 (General Tariff), 25 per cent.,” be added.

– Does the honorable member want it to remain without any preference to Great Britain?

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– I intend to move that measuring machines be inserted in the item. I understand that these machines are made here to a considerable extent. But I was not made aware of the fact until within the last few days.

Mr Bruce Smith:

– What are these ma chines ?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– They are used in connexion with the measurement of leather. In answer to the honorable member for Barrier I may say that I understand that cash registers are not made here, at any rate, not in any payable quantity ; and the same may be said of computing machines.

Mr Thomas:

– Is the Treasurer pre pared to omit adding and computing machines and cash registers from the item?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– I shall askthe Committee to strike the articles mentioned out of this item, but I think that I shall move that they be inserted in an item making them subject to duties of 10 per cent. and 5 per cent. I now move -

That the words “ adding and computing machines, and all attachments; cash registers,” be left out.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr Batchelor:
BOOTHBY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– The honorable member may propose that amendment after the Treasurer’s amendment has been dealt with. There can be only one amendment before the Committee at the one time.

Sir JOHN QUICK:
Bendigo

.- I hope that weighbridges willnot be eli minated. The honorable member for Fremantle has said that they are not made in Australia. Mr. John Felix Martin, of James Martin and Company, Gawler, gave the following evidence before the Tariff Commission - 49160. What have you to say about weighbridges, on which you suggest a duty of £2 10s. per ton of carrying capacity ? - They can be made in Australia. They have been made for some time by Hawke and Co., at Kapunda ; but I believe the firm have lately been driven out of the market by the cutting of prices. The machines are made in Victoria. Any engineering firm can make them.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr HEDGES:
Fremantle

.- If I am in order, I propose to move -

That the following words be inserted, “except automatic weighing machines and weighbridges.”

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN.Owing to a misunderstanding for which I was responsible, it is rather difficult for the honorable member for Fremantle to submit his amendment now. I understand that the honorable member desired to move the omission of some words that followed the words which the Treasurer proposed to omit ; but now it appears that he proposes to insert after the words “ weighing machines,” the words “ except automatic weighing machines,” and to strike out the words “ weighbridges.” It is obvious that the Committee cannot go back, except by general consent. There will be no opportunity for the honorable member to test the feeling of the Committee as regards weighbridges, unless it allows me to accept an amendment now. But, so far as automatic weighing machines are concerned, he can submit a proposal.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– If that course were taken in this case, it would create a precedent which hereafter might be found to be inconvenient. I do not object to a test vote being taken, but I submit that after a line and a half have been deleted from the item it is too late to move the omission of prior words. What I suggest is that the honorable member should move the insertion of a new paragraph, or an addition to a motion which probably I shall move presently, to bring the deleted articles under a lower duty. If I were to take no further action, those articles would be liable to a higher duty than they were under this item, but that I did not and do not intend. I have a note to propose that they should be made dutiable at 10 per cent. and 5 per respectively. Have we arrived at the stage, sir, when I can move in regard to tanners’ measuring machines? I want to get them included in this item.

Mr Johnson:

– Some honorable members want to speak first.

Mr Bruce Smith:

– I submit, sir, that it would be very unfair if the amendment of the honorable member for Fremantle were ruled out of order, because I called to you, “ Will he not be too late?” You did not hear what I said ; but I heard you distinctly tell’ the honorable member that he could move his proposal afterwards; and, relying on that direction from the Chair, he deferred taking any action until after the Minister had moved. I submit, sir, that the Committee ought to offer no objection to the honorable member moving his proposal now, seeing that he was misled by what you said.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I wish to suggest that there is a very easy way out of the difficulty, and that is to pass this item as it is, with an addendum that on and after a certain date, automatic weighing machines shall be free.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN.If the honorable member for Fremantle desires to move that on and after the 2 7 th November, automatic weighing machines and weighbridges shall be free, he may do so when the item before the Committee has been dealt with.

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) proposed -

That after the word “ including “ the words “Tanners’ Measuring Machines” be inserted.

Mr FRAZER:
Kalgoorlie

.- There is a misunderstanding on the part of some honorable members as to the extent to which the honorable member for Fremantle wishes to go. I do not think that he desires his proposed amendment to apply to penny-in-the-slot weighing machines.

Mr Hedges:

– No.

Mr FRAZER:

– The object which the honorable member has in view is to exempt automatic machines used for weighing coal and various ores. As the trucks run along the lines they pass over automatic scales which record their weight as they cross them. Those machines are patented, and despite what has been said by the honorable member for Bendigo, I do not think that they have ever been made in Australia. If the honorable member will accept, a proposition which, I understand, the honorable member for Newcastle intends to make, he will have my support, since it will enable a specific proposal to be put before the Committee.

Mr HENRY WILLIS:
Robertson

– Tanners’ measuring machinesare designed to measure the surface of leather. Leather is sold by measurement instead of by weight, and these machines, which are made in Fitzroy, are very ingenious. I have lately had an opportunity to test them, and think that if we are to give the protection of a 20 per cent. duty to any machine made in Australia, we ought certainly to do so in this case.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr LIDDELL:
Hunter

.I move -

That the words “ Chemists’ counter scales “ be left out.

My desire is that these scales shall be included in item 212, under which chemical analytical and assay scales are free. A great deal depends upon the accuracy of dispensing scales, for a slight defect in one of them might lead to the loss of valuable lives. These scales, I understand, are not made in Australia.

Sir William Lyne:

– I am advised that they are.

Mr LIDDELL:

– No reputable chemist would think of using any other than Avery’s scales.

Mr Chanter:

– That is an antiAustralian statement.

Mr LIDDELL:

– The honorable member knows as well as I do that I put the interests of Australia before those of any other part of the world. I hope that my amendment will be agreed to.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– I should think that item 212, which deals with -

Scales, viz., chemical, analytical, and assay, including weights; and precision and physical balances covers the scales which the honorable member has in view. The scales included in this item are used on counters in the ordinary way, and the amendment would make them free.

Mr WILSON:
Corangamite

.- The scales which the honorable member for Hunter desires to have placed on the free list are not covered by item 212. They are small dispensing scales balanced in the hand, and they weigh quantities of from half-a-grain upwards. I do not think they are made in Australia.

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

– Are not dispensing scales referred to in item 212 as “ precision balances “ ?

Mr WILSON:

– No. The object which the honorable member for Hunter has in view would be met by inserting in item 212 the words “ dispensing scales.”

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Surely the chemists can stand 20 per cent. on their scales.

Mr WILSON:

– Dispensing chemists work longer hours for a poorer return than do men in any other profession. Very few chemists in the retail trade make fortunes. Counter scales are larger than dispensing scales, and are used for measuring from a dram upwards. So far as they are concerned, the Tariff should not be altered, but I hope that dispensing scales will be included in item 212.

Sir William Lyne:

– I dare say that they would be classed as coming under that item.

Mr WILSON:

– No; chemical and analytical scales are usually kept in a glass case; they have to be protected from any draught, in order that they may weigh correctly. The passing of the amendment will do justice to a profession that deserves consideration.

Mr Liddell:

– By leave, I wish to withdraw my amendment, in order that I may again bring forward this question when we are dealing with item 212.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

.- I wish the question “ that the words ad val., 20 per cent.” stand part of the item, to be put.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN.The honorable member for Fremantle has a prior amendment.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– It can be dealt with subsequently. .

Mr Fisher:

– I rise to a point of order. I submit, Mr. Chairman, that you must leave the chair and suspend the sittings at 6.30, unless leave be obtained to continue.

Mr FRAZER:
Kalgoorlie

.- I should like to, understand what the position now is. If the question, that the item as amended be agreed to, be now put, it will dispose of the whole item. Would it not be advisable that the amendment to be proposed by the Minister should be submitted before the submission of the question that the item be agreed to?

Mr JOHNSON:
Lang

.- If the question, that the item be agreed to, is now put, I point out that it includes a duty of 20 per cent. If the item be agreed to, it will preclude any honorable member from moving a lower rate of duty.

The CHAIRMAN:

– I understand that an amendment is to be moved by the Treasurer which will take the form of a new item.

Item, as amended, agreed to.

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) proposed -

That the following new item be inserted - “ 161A. Adding and Computing Machines and all Attachments, Cash Registers, Automatic Weighbridges and Automatic Weighing Machines, except Coin-Freed Automatic Weighing Machines, on and after 27th November, 1907, ad val. (General Tariff), 10 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 5 per cent.”

Mr McDougall:

– Is this a tax upon the poor working man, then?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Every man employed in a coal-mine has to have the result of his work passed over one of these automatic machines. My honorable friend may be quite certain that the capitalists will not pay this taxation themselves: They will pass it on to the poor working man, to whom the honorable member ironically alludes. There is nothing surer under the sun than that the working man will have to shoulder his proportion of . the burden, which is ostensibly imposed upon the employer. There is no pretence that we make the machines in Australia. I therefore move -

That the amendment be amended by inserting after the word “ machines,” line 5, the word “free.”

Question put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 15

NOES: 30

Majority … … 15

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment of the amendment negatived.

Proposed new item agreed to.

Postponed item 162. Marine engines, boilers, and machinery; and fittings and mountings n.e.i., for such engines, boilers, and machinery ; shafts, propellers; winches; liners for cylinders; windlasses; steering gear; feed water heaters; feed pumps; evaporators, auxiliary condensers; feedwater fillers; and ash ejectors, ad val. (General Tariff), 25 per cent.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– I ask the Committee to negative this item,’ with a view to the insertion of the following new item : - “ Motive power machinery and appliances (except electric), viz. : -

Gas producers; flue-heated economizers; mechanical stokers; steam traps; steam turbines; superheaters; water purifiers, ad val. (General Tariff), 5 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), free.
N.E.I. ad val. (General Tariff), 30 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), 25 per cent.”

As I informed honorable members a week or ten days ago, officers have been employed to effect a re-arrangement in respect of some of the items in this division. It will be observed that the new item which I have placed before theCommittee does not include electrical machinery and appliances, which will be embodied in item 178. But in respect of the articles enumerated in the item under consideration., I have endeavoured to meet the wish of the Committee, and I hope that I have been successful. I admit that when I have previously attempted to do the same thing, I have been told that I have not succeeded. The articles originally specified in item 162, with the exception of those which are specifically mentioned in the new item, are covered by paragraph b. I hope that the course which I have adopted will have the effect of shortening debate.

Mr Henry Willis:

– But the Treasurer has raised the duty, which was originally imposed, by5 per cent.

SirWILLIAM LYNE.- I am anxious to extend a preference of 5 per cent. to GreatBritain, and I hope that the Committee will assist me to do so. Two experts have been employed in re-arranging this item, one of whom is connected with the University, and the other with the Commonwealth public service. The instructions which I gave to them were to divide the articles specified in the amendments I have circulated into two groups, one of which was to include machinery and appliances, which it was possible to profitably manufacture in the Commonwealth, and the other articles which we cannot profitably manufacture for some time to come. The machinery and appliances contained in the former group have been subjected to a higher rate of duty than the articles comprised in the latter. Of course, it is quite impossible to obtain absolute accuracy in regard to what is likely to be made in the Commonwealth with commercial success. Therefore, I have had recourse to experts for information which will enable me to devise a scheme that would be just and acceptable to the Committee.

Mr FRAZER:
Kalgoorlie

.- The item whose discussion we are now beginning, is one of the most important, if not the most important, in the Tariff. I am not sure that the Minister’s proposal will be accepted by the Committee. I have heard it said that there will be a lot of debate upon it, and I think that it will be well to discuss the whole item at once instead of having a discussion on each of its two paragraphs.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I do not think that there need be any debate on paragraph a:

Mr Batchelor:

– I have an amendment on that paragraph.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– So have I.

Mr FRAZER:

– I cannot conceive of there being no debate on a proposal in regard to which two amendments are to be moved. No doubt the re-arrangement of items which the Minister has submitted is intended to make the Tariff clear, and to facilitate its administration. Paragraph a covers several kinds of machinery, all others being dutiable as “ n.e.i.,” at a higher rate, under paragraph b.

Mr Harper:

– The item deals with motive power only.

Mr FRAZER:

The representatives of Mort’s Dock and Engineering Company alleged that, with the view of giving the 12½ per cent. Tariff a trial, and of instituting a comparison between the cost of local production and” that of importation, his firm had during 1900 and 1904 built several sets of engines and boilers, aggregating about £18,000 in value, but, instead of profit, there had been a loss of about £2,000, or 11 per cent. on the cost of production.

I do not like to hear of that loss, sir, but I do not wish the Committee to be influenced by that fact too much, as it may have been due to want of administration. We. certainly are confronted with this position, that fewer men are employed in engineering establishments in Australia to-day than in 1899 ; and, so far as New South Wales is concerned, less men are employed to-day than was the case prior to Federation. That should appeal to every one who has any consideration for the welfare of Australia. I desire to give an illustration of the difficulties against which local manufacturers have to contend. Referring to Mr. Franki’s evidence, the protectionist section of the Tariff Commission said -

As an illustration of the difficulties against which local manufacturers contended he mentioned one case where his firm tendered for the construction of a boat of about 1,700 tons for the Newcastle trade. His company was prepared to execute all the work in connexion with the hull, but were, he alleged, handicapped to the extent of about £20,000 at the outset. The work, as a whole, was estimated to be worth nearly £70,000, of which labour represented £23,000. The difference between labour here and in England would be about £12,000 in favour of the latter country. About £16,000 worth of patented machinery would have been required, the freight and charges on which would total £4,000.The duty on these importations would be about £2,000, and on the framing, &c, for the ship, which would have to be imported, an additional £2,000.

– Even in regard to machinery, very much depends upon the wages paid to those who tend the machines.

Mr TILLEY BROWN:
INDI, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC

– If we make machinery very expensive we lessen the opportunities for men to get good wages.

Mr BATCHELOR:

– Of course if we were to impose such taxation that industries would not be able to prosper, and external competition was prevented, the honorable member would be perfectly right. Speaking as one who is just as anxious to see that the producer is not handicapped as is the honorable member, I point out that unless the duty is sufficiently high to encourage local production, there will be no local competition with the imported article, and, consequently, the foreigner will put up his price far beyond what it would be if there was internal competition. The best results are obtained when we bring the foreigner and the local manufacturer into competition. This industry is well worth protecting, so that we may hav e healthy local competition with the imported article. Anything like a reduction to 15 per cent. would lead to a repetition of the trouble we have experienced” in regard to the manufacture of iron and steel. By making such an amendment, we should disregard the mandate which protectionists in this House have received from Australia, and deal a heavy blow at one of the best industries that we could preserve.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– I should like the Committee to agree at once to the omission of the old item so that I may move the insertion of the proposed new item, and thus afford the Committee a better opportunity of dealing with the Government proposal.

Item negatived.

Amendment (by Sir William Lyne) proposed -

That the following new itembe inserted - “ Item 162. On and after 27th November, 1907, Motive Power Machinery and Appliances (except Electric), viz. : -

Gas Producers; Flue-heated Economizers;. “ Mechanical Stokers; Steam Traps; Steam Turbines; Superheaters; Water purifiers, ad val. (General Tariff), 5 per cent. ; (United Kingdom), free.

N.E.I., ad val. (General Tariff), 30 per cent.; (United Kingdom), 25 per cent.”’

Mr Hedges:

– Where is it situated.

Mr KING O’MALLEY:

– Its name is the “ Grizzly Anaconda.” I have more faith in this country and its resources than have many persons who were born here. Some honorable members who are possessed of affluence, have been singularly blessed in Australia. In short, it is a country which they ought never to forget.

Mr FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– They have not seen other countries, and consequently do not appreciate how good a place Australia is.

Mr KING O’MALLEY:

– I trust that the Treasurer will adhere to his proposals.

Mr SPENCE:
Darling

.- I think that the Treasurer has acted wisely in remodelling this portion of the Tariff.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– This is the most important item in the Tariff, and in the circumstances I think that the Government should consent to adjourn at this hour.

Mr Groom:

– No.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I venture to say that the haste with which the Ministry are pushing this matter through is absolutely indecent. If I remember rightly, when we dealt with the first Tariff, the duties proposed on mining machinery occupied the attention of the Committee for nearly a week. I am in favour of the proposal contained in paragraph a of this item, but I wish to include an additional article. I wish to have hot-air engines included.

Mr Watson:

– They are very easily made.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– That may be so, but it is complained that the demand for them in the Commonwealth is not sufficiently large to make it worth the while of any one to manufacture them, otherwise I should not ask the Committee to make an exception in their favour”.

Mr Watson:

– They are extremely simple in construction.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

proposal of duties of 25 per cent. and 20 per cent., and then, if the Opposition see their way to make the first duty 20 per cent., I shall vote for it.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I move -

That the amendment be amended by inserting after the word “ Economizers “ the words “Hot Air Engines.”

Those engines are in a class by themselves, and do not come into competition in any way with engines made in Australia.

Mr Watson:

– They are about the simplest engines ever . made.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– That is quite true; but, owing to the extremely limited demand, there is no inducement to local manufacture, or they would have been made here long ago; and in New Zealand and other places hot air engines are on the free list. If these engines were being produced here, I should not propose any differentiation.

Mr THOMAS:
Barrier

.- I am sorry that the Government are not prepared to consent to an adjournment.

Mr Frazer:

– But if we adjourn, it will not be possible to collect the duties to-morrow.

Mr THOMAS:

– I am sure that if the Government were to move the re-insertion of the duty with the idea of resuming the discussion to-morrow, no objection would be raised. We have been here since 1 1 o’clock this morning, and it is only fair that at nearly midnight we should be permitted to go home. I move -

That the Chairman do now leave the chair.

Motion negatived.

Mr WATSON:
South Sydney

– I can see no possible reason why any distinction should be made between hot-air engines and other engines. Their construction is extremely simple.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Are they made here at all?

Mr WATSON:

– I do not think so, nor do I expect that with a duty of 12½ per cent. they will be made here. No one expects a revenue duty to encourage in any material way local manufactures. Any : reason which can be urged for putting hotair engines on the free list is, in my opinion, a ground why no duty should be imposed on any class of engine. The honorable member for Parramatta was not correct when he said that hot-air engines do not enter into competition with locallymade engines, because I know that they compete with oil engines and windmills which are made here.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member is quite wrong. Hot-air engines are only used where a windmill cannot be used.

Mr WATSON:

– I knowof my own knowledge that persons are using hot-air engines in places where a windmill could be used. But same persons prefer to use a hot-air engine, because in their localities it is more reliable “than is a windmill. Wind cannot always be got in a country district as well as it can be obtained, for instance, in Parliament House. For that reason some persons prefer to use a hot-air engine. So far as I know, it is a very good engine, but as regards difficulty of manufacture there is no difference between it and any other class of engine. I trust that it will be treated in just the same way as other engines.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I am prepared to admit all that the honorable member for South Sydney has said. There is not sufficient demand to make it worth while for any one to manufacture hot-air engines. They are not made here at the present time, and I am told on the best authority by those who use them that they do not, and are not likely to, compete with any other kind of engine.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I hope that the Committee will agree to the amendment of. the honorable member for Parramatta. The hot-air engine has very small power. It does not enter into competition with any large engine power.

Mr Watson:

– The cost of a hot-air engine runs into nearly£200 sometimes.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– The only purpose for which I know it is used is lifting water but of shallow wells and tanks for watering stock. As a rule, windmills are used for that purpose, but where these are not suitable, usually a hot-air engine is called in to do the lighter and easier kind of work. Where heavy work is required to be done, a hot-air engine is out of the question. It is not sufficiently strong and reliable to compete with oil or steam power. So far as I know, the only hot-air machines that enter into competition with other engines are Ericsson’s machines, which are turned out in fairly large quantities in America, I think, and which previously were on the free list or subject to a low duty. The proposal of the Minister, if accepted, means that farmers and squatters will have to install a steam or oil engine to do the work which the cheaper forms of engine have been doing. The great point is that hot-air engines are not made in Australia.

The CHAIRMAN:

– Order ! Honorable members are conversing around me in such loud tones that I cannot hear what the honorable member is saying. I again ask them to discontinue their conversations.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– That ought to be an indication to the Minister that it is time to report progress. Certainly the Committee is not in a condition to hear a question argued out in a reasonable way, and therefore I content myself with stating that I shall support the amendment.

Mr WILKS:
Dalley

.- The last speaker has really upset the position. From the remarks of the honorable member for Parramatta one would have thought that a hot-air engine was a cheap engine worth about 25s. when, as a matter of fact, the cost runs as high as £200. I am in favour of putting the £200 hot-air engine on the same footing as any other engine.

Question - That the words “Hot- Air Engines “ proposed to be inserted be so inserted (Mr. Joseph Cook’s amendment) - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 22

NOES: 31

Majority … … 9

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

– I have been to the Library and tried to lay my hand upon a book bearing upon this matter, but have not been able to find it. But I believe that the patent rights ran out many years since.

Mr Fuller:

– They had not run out on the 15th February, 1906, according to the evidence of Mr. Rigby, the manager of the Austral Otis Engineering Company.

Mr SALMON:

– Is it not possible that he may have made a mistake in that regard? I am quoting from the records of the Patent Office in Melbourne, and can assure honorable members that my statement is correct. If I am unable to confirm it later in the day, I shall apologize to the honorable member for Parramatta ; but I object to his describing as a specious argument, or an attempt to mislead the Committee, a statement made in good faith.

Mr Bruce Smith:

– I rise to a point of order. The honorable member for Laanecoorie has accused the honorable member for Parramatta of attempting to mislead the Committee.

Mr SALMON:

Mr FULLER:
Illawarra

– The honorable member for Laanecoorie has requested the Committee to accept his assurance that the patents appertaining to the Babcock and Wilcox boilers have expired, and says that during the day he will look up the authority on’ which he relies, and submit it to the Committee.. He overlooks the fact that by that time we shall have dealt with this item. I intend to show the Committee that as late as February, 1906, patent rights in connexion with the Babcock and Wilcox boilers were still running. . That was the evidence -given by Mr. Rigby, manager- of the

Austral Otis Engineering Company, when before the Tariff Commission.

Mr Bruce Smith:

– And it was given on oath.

Mr FULLER:

– It was. In his examination in chief - in answer to question No. 71839, he said -

The tubular boilers referred to undoubtedly are the Babcock and Wilcox make, and other tubular boilers of similar shape. We have built such boilers in our own works here. The Babcock and Wilcox tubular boilers can and have been built here.

That definite statement, like many others made by manufacturers in their evidence ;n chief, was not substantiated on crossexamination. Mr. Rigby was crossexamined - questions 72075 to 72081 - as follows -

Is there anything special about the Babcock boiler? - The patents.

Are you able to produce a boiler here free from the patents and of equal steam-raising capacity? - They have patents on portions of their boiler which would prevent you making a Babcock boiler at all without their consent.

But could you make a tubular boiler of approximately the same steam fuel consumption? -

Then can you tell me how it happens that the patented boiler is chosen by certain protected industries? - Yes, I think I can. It is because of its general excellence and economy effected by it. These advantages are probably due to the patent construction.

Then, as a matter of fact, you cannot make one equal to it here? - You cannot make one equal to it without infringing their patent.

This evidence was given on 15th February, 1906 -

I ask you if you could make a similar boiler with the same amount of fuel consumption? - To make a boiler with the same steaming capacity of the same construction without having their patent construction, it would be necessary to make a much more expensive one, that would probably be double the weight and cost more.

So if two or three Babcock boilers were installed in a protected establishment, where” there is a local industry, they would be put there in order to save money? - Certainly. Taking a 1,000 h.p. boiler - if you put in one of Babcock’s construction, or Hornsby’s, or other similar boilers, the first cost would probably be “50 per cent, less for same power.

That was the evidence of the managingdirector of a very large engineering company in Melbourne, who declared that patent rights in connexion with the Babcock boiler were in existence in February, 1906, and that it could not be made in. Melbourne without the special consent of the patentees.

Mr HEDGES:
Fremantle

-I hope that the Committee ‘ “ will recognise that those engaged in the mining industry are the best judges of what they require. They surely know more about this question than do honorable members generally. These boilers save labour and fuel, and are more efficient for the purposes for which they are used than any others that come to Australia. At the same time, I think that the amendment ought to apply to all tubular boilers or boilers of a similar type, which, in my opinion, should come in free, or be subject to only a reasonable duty. One of the advantages of the Babcock and Wilcox boiler is that it can be taken to pieces, which enables it to be handled by lighter cranes, and transported with less difficulty than, say, a Lancashire boiler, which would weigh from 16 to 20 tons, and would do the work . of two such boilers. Facility in transport is a big thing when mining is being conducted in a remote part of the interior.

Mr KNOX:
Kooyong

.In my opinion, it would be a “mistake to specify the name of any particular manufacturer. The difficulty might be got over by making the amendment apply to watertube boilers. We should be doing a great injustice if we did not give the same treatment to the Stirling and other boilers that could be named as it is proposed to give to the Babcock and Wilcox. In confirmation of what has been said of the portability of the last-named boiler, I would mention that within the last few months, it was necessary to send a boiler to a remote part of Gippsland, through almost inaccessible mountain ranges.

Mr Wise:

– Where?

Mr KNOX:

– The boiler was sent to the Crooked River, in Gippsland.

Mr Wise:

– I do not know that that country is inaccessible.

Mr KNOX:

– The place is a very difficult one to get “machinery to. The honorable member would not like to take a big Cornish boiler there. One of the great advantages of the Babcock and Wilcox boiler is that it can be taken to pieces, and the makers have given so much attention to the subject of transport that every piece is packed and numbered so carefully that one may be sure that when they arrive at their destination everything will be there for putting the boilertogether again. I attach greater importance to that than to the fact that the boiler is patented. As I pointed out earlier in the evening, in not specifying in more instances the articles on which the duties are to be imposed, we are not making an efficient Tariff. Local imanufacturers are not in a position to make Babcock and Wilcox or Sterling boilers. Apart from the patents, the perfection of these boilers is such as we could not obtain here. That is due to the fact that the manufacturers have a large market, not in Australia only, but throughout the world. I think that a case has been made out for giving special consideration to these boilers.

Mr PALMER:
ECHUCA, VICTORIA · PROT; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

.I suggest to the honorable member for Darling that he should amend his amendment by making it apply to watertube boilers, the technical name for all boilers of the type to whichhe has referred. On the general question, I would point out that, although item 162 deals with motive power, machinery and appliances, the only motive power machinery specified as dutiable at5 per cent. is steam turbines. There is nothing about steam turbines entitling them to different consideration from other kinds of motive power machinery. The same thing might be said of the other machinery which is particularized. The whole item should be recast, if we are to act in accordance with common-sense, reason, and jusfice. In my opinion, the Minister should report progress, so that the matter may be considered, calmly and deliberately, when honorable members will be in better temper, and in a mood more conducive to its settlement in the best interests of the country. The item as it stands is not as we individually would have it framed, nor what the country would approve of.

Mr Fowler:

– The honorable member for Echuca, in suggesting that progress be reported, has said what I intended to say.

Mr SPENCE:
Darling

.When the honorable member for South Sydney spoke, I saw that his objection was a reasonable one, and that it would not be well to name any particular manufacturer. Therefore I wish to adopt the suggestion of the honorable member for Echuca, by making my amendment apply to water-tube boilers, which, I think, covers what we mean better than the word “ multitubular.”

Amendment, by leave, amended accord ingly.

Mr SINCLAIR:
Moreton

– It appears that an attempt is being made to admit these boilers free in competition with boilers made in Australia. Under item 183 a, large part of these Babcock and Wilcox boilers can be introduced free, and there is therefore no reason why honorable members should atempt to secure their free admission under item 162.

Sir JOHN QUICK:
Bendigo

– I wish to quote, on this question, the evidence of Mr. William Frederick Harrington, manager of Walkers Limited, Maryborough. Referring to these watertube boilers, he said -

They are all being made abroad, and under the existing 12½ per cent. Tariff they bid fair to oust the ordinary boilers.

In other words, the free admission of these boilers would destroy the boilermaking industry in Australia, which is largely occupied in the manufacture of Cornish and Lancashire boilers. Mr. Harrington added that, in his opinion -

All these water-tube boilers should pay an ad valorem duty of not less than 33 per cent.

That is the proposal of the representative of the biggest foundry in Queensland. The representative of the largest foundry in South Australia, Mr. John Felix Martin, speaking of the Heine and Babcock boilers, said -

They can be made in Australia. … I do not know that any part of the Babcock boiler is now protected by patent. I think the patent has expired. No boiler is made that cannot be made in Australia. The locomotive boiler stands a higher pressure than any mine boiler.

He contended that if we can make locomotive boilers in Australia we can also make these water-tube boilers. The Government would make a great mistake if they accepted the amendment. It would knock the bottom out of the Tariff altogether.

Mr MATHEWS:
Melbourne Ports

– I wish just to say that the Babcock and Wilcox boiler has been made in Australia. I could put three journeymen into the witness-box who would be prepared to make affidavit that they had made Babcock and Wilcox boilers in Australia during the last two years.

Mr Fuller:

– Where?

Mr MATHEWS:

– In my electorate.

Mr Fuller:

– In which establishment?

Mr MATHEWS:

– In my electorate. If we place the Babcock and Wilcox boilers on the free list, we might just as well say that we wish no more boilers to be made in Australia. Such a proposal as has been made would result in the penalizing of those who are compelled to use the cheaper boilers, and, as usual, the “ fat man” would be given the advantage.

We have in Australia to-day engines of every capacity, and of all known boilers, and they do work of the most diverse character. Yet to-night we have been told that there is only one boiler made that is fit for certain engines. If that be so, how is it that Lancashire and Cornish boilers are so generally used? If these Babcock and Wilcox boilers are admitted free, there will be but a poor look-out for those engaged in the boiler-making industry in Australia. Those who support the amendment, no doubt mean well, and think they are acting in the interests of the people of Australia, but they forget that the effect of the amendment, if carried, would be to wipe out the Australian boiler-making industry.

Mr FOWLER:
Perth

.The honorable member for Melbourne Ports no doubt believes he has supplied a very forcible argument, when he refers to these modern water-tube boilers as the “fat man’s” boilers. I have to inform the honorable member that it is owing to the ability of employers in the mines in Western Australia to utilize such upto date appliances as these boilers that wages are found for thousands of workers in that State, and a good living for thousands of families. If the present proposals of the Government are carried into effect they will work disaster to the mining industry of Western Australia.

Mr Wise:

– We have heard that on every Tariff proposed in Australia.

Mr FOWLER:

– No Tariff of this kind was ever proposed in Australia before, and I believe that if it is adopted it will create such a reaction against, protection as to bring about the downfall of the beautiful theories of those who profess that doctrine.

Mr Mauger:

– Does the honorable member know of any place where such a reaction has set in?

Mr FOWLER:

– I do not wish to enter upon the general question, or I could supply the Postmaster-General with some interesting information. . The honorable member for Bendigo has quoted the evidence of Mr. Martin, of Gawler, in connexion with these boilers. The evidence of that gentleman is, in my opinion, worthless. He admitted to the Tariff Commission that he was not an engineer, and it is a fact that, in spite of the long period of protection which his industry enjoyed in South Australia, and the disgraceful sweating of his employes, Mr. Martin has had to go out of the business altogether. The extraordinary argument has been used that if these water-tube boilers are admitted, the older type of boiler will be pushed outof existence. If that argument were carried’ to its logical conclusion, we should go back tq the wheelbarrow instead of the locomotive, and the trucks behind it. We should revert to the use of the most primitive appliances, and reject those which have done most for the advance of civilization. No doubt boilers of a type have been made here. In the Perth Museum there is a bicycle made by a bushman in the West some years ago, of exactly the type of the best bicycle made nowadays. It is constructed from wire, scraps of myall, and raw cowhide. According to the theory advanced by some honorable members to-night, that article is as good and effective as the machines turned out by the best equipped works in the world. The difference between the alleged water-tube boiler turned out in Australia and those turned out by the large firms mentioned is simply that those firms have spent enormous sums in laying down extensive plant in order to give quality as well as cheapness. They have had large experience, and have brought to bear on the production of their boilers all the skill, money, and enterprise possible. They manufacture for the whole world, and are undoubtedly in a position to commend themselves to buyers by the excellence and value of their product. It is just as though in Australia some enthusiastic believer in Australian industry brought the necessary number of wheels, pinions, and levers to a watchmaker, told him to put them together, and was prepared to regard the result as of equal value to the best work of Rotherham. The way to develop the making of such boilers in Australia is to give opportunities to those who are likely to purchase and utilize them, and when there is a sufficient demand in Australia, then, and not till then, shall we be able to make them in a way that will commend them to buyers for quality and cheapness:

Mr BATCHELOR:
Boothby

– Whatever mav be said for the Babcock and Wilcox boilers, whether the patent rights have run. out or not, it is palpable that if we make an exception of water-tube boilers, the prestige which the firm already have, and the excellence of their work, will only accentuate the monopoly, whether we name the firm specifically or not. One type of boiler will ha”p mi absolute monopoly of the whole boiler market, and boiler-making in Australia will go out. ‘ What reason can be offered for giving that firm the Australian market for all time? We are passing this Tariff not for a week or a year, but for several years at least. Of all the mischievous proposals I have heard, this strikes me as the most mischievous.

Amendment of the amendment negatived.

Mr THOMAS:
Barrier

.I oppose the 5 per cent, duty in the gene1 ral Tariff column for paragraph a, and therefore move -

That the amendment be amended by leaving out the words “ 5 per cent.,” with a view to insert in lieu thereof” the word “ free.”

It is nothing but a revenue-producing item. The revenue from it will be very small, but the cost of the article to the consumer will be” increased by 5 per cent. The matter with which we are dealing is one of the most important in the Tariff. It affects the mining industry very seriously. We ought not to penalize that industry unnecessarily. If the Government and the Committee think that it is not worth carrying on, let us say so frankly. Although I represent a mining constituency, when I consider the large number of people that are killed in mining and the amount of illhealth caused by the work, it is an open question to me sometimes whether the ore produced is worth the sacrifice of life and health. If honorable members are desirous that the mining industry should be strangled, let us say so calmly, and not penalize it by imposing unnecessarily high duties. I admit that there are a large number of engineering establishments in Australia which we ought to encourage. , We all desire a diversity of industries and employments in Australia; but there is no doubt that the proposed duties will raise the prices of mining machinery.

Mr Coon:

– The duties will make mining machinery cheaper.

Mr THOMAS:

– It is peculiar that while manufacturers, when before the Tariff Commission, contended that their products would be made cheaper by protection, they all urged that the articles they required in order to carry .on their industries, ought to be free. We ought, as far as possible, to relieve the mining companies from duties which are not of a protective character. Three or four years ago, I proposed that all mining machinery should be admitted free; but that proposal was defeated. On the present occasion. I am merely asking the Government to admit free all mining machinery which cannot reasonably be made here, and offering, if that be done, to accept a duty of 20 per cent. as against both foreign countries and the United Kingdom. Under a duty of 12½ per cent., a great deal of mining machinery is already being manufactured in Australia ; and that is a fact which must be gratifying to all of us. Some time ago, when in the South Mine, Broken Hill, I saw a winding engine, which the manager told me had been manufactured at Maryborough, Queensland, and was the finest in the line of lode. The mining industry is one of the most important in Australia; and is, therefore, entitled to some encouragement. If twenty-five men happen to be thrown out of work in an industry in Melbourne, Sydney, or Adelaide, especially in Melbourne, an extra duty is clamoured for at once in order to find employment for them. In to-day’s newspaper, I read that 200 men have been thrown out of work - I hope only temporarily -in Block 14 at Broken Hill, owing to a poppet head having caught fire. Until it can be replaced with a temporary poppet head, those men will be unemployed. When any men are thrown out of work in a mining district, we cannot find employment for them by the mere imposition of a duty. The importance of the mining industry to a community is demonstrated by the effect which the working of the Broken Hill mines has had upon South Australia. If those mines were to cease work to-day, one out of every three of the railway officials in South Australia would have to be dismissed almost immediately, and Port Pirie would cease to be a township. We ought not to interfere unnecessarily with the mining industry. Seeing that I am prepared to agree to a duty of 20 per cent. on those articles which can be made in Australia, I submit that it would be only fair and reasonable on the part of the Government to forego the duty of 5 per cent. on other articles which come from Germany, America, and other places outside England. Unless Ministers are prepared to give way, and ‘allow all the articles mentioned in paragraph a to come in free, it will mean an added cost of 5 per cent. on those articles to the mining industry. Is it fair to unnecessarily tax the mining and other industries of Australia ?

Mr McWILLIAMS:
Franklin

– Judging by the way in which we are proceeding, I believe that this Tariff will be very much more complicated than the last one. The Government make a proposal, and if one can get a sufficient number of honorable members who are interested in the item to vote with him, the duty is removed or cut down very materially. A great many of the honorable members who to-night have been advocating a reduction in the duty on mining machinery or its removal, were amongst those who last session, without a quiver of conscience, doubled the duties on agricultural machinery, showing very little consideration for the primary producer. I think that there ought to be some consistency with regard to the Tariff, but I do not intend to vote for the imposition of high duties on mining machinery. In some States, a dividend tax is collected. Suppose that a company spend£10,000 in developing a mine. As soon as the first dividend is declared, a dividend tax of1s. in the £1 has to be paid to the State. Men who have paid calls month after month and year after year, have been called upon to pay that tax to the State as soon as their first dividend has been declared. Of all the people in Australia the miner is the one person who derives no benefit from protective duties. When we can give him no protection, surely it is not fair to tax those things which are practically his tools of trade? It has been said that wealthy companies pay the tax. But machinery is employed in many mines in which working men are very large shareholders. Every tax levied upon mining machinery is a blow to the mining industry.

Mr COON:
Batman

.- I merely wish to say that every item of machinery mentioned by the honorable member for Kooyong can be manufactured in the Commonwealth, and some of it at a cheaper rate than it can be imported. Under these circumstances, I trust that the Committee will agree to the proposed duty.

Question - That the words “ 5 per cent.” proposed to be left out stand part of the proposed new item- put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 38

NOES: 13

Majority … … 25

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Amendment of the amendment negatived.

Amendment (by Mr. Frazer) proposed -

That the amendment be amended By leaving out the figures “ 30,” paragraph B, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the figures “20.”

Sir JOHN QUICK:
Bendigo

– I shall support the omission of 30 per cent. with a view of imposing a uniform duty of 25 per cent. In my opinion, a duty of 25 per cent. is absolutely necessary in order to be effective. We have heard a great deal about effective protection. Now is the time to show our earnestness in favour of effective protection. So far as concerns the representatives of the engineering industry in Western Australia, the bulk of them are of opinion that unless they get a duty of 25 per cent., the whole of these duties on machinery might as well remain at 12½ per cent. The result of a lower duty will be that instead of settling this Tariff question as we desire to settle it, we shall leave this great problem outstanding, and the agitation will go on. It is of no use talking about fiscal peace until we have this matter settled on a satisfactory basis. As Chairman of the Tariff Commission, I have had the same application for a duty of 25 per cent. from every State except Tasmania. In Western Australia, in South Australia, in Victoria, in New South Wales, and in Queensland, the representatives of the biggest mechanical industry in the country asked for - almost demanded - a duty of 25 per cent., and said that they could not effectually carry on business with a lower duty. I sayagain, therefore, that* if honorable members agree to a lower duty than 25 per cent., they will simply be leaving this great question unsettled, and the agitation will go on indefinitely. I am in favour of fiscal peace. I want a settlement that will be definite. It is of no use attempting to patch up a temporary peace. We want a permanent one.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– We shall not have a permanent peace with prohibition. That is not the way to settle it.

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– This is not a Victorian application. It is an Australian application. Unless it is agreed to the whole settlement will be merely of temporary duration. With reference to the alleged incapacity of the foundries and engineering establishments in Australia I say that they are quite capable of turning out the biggest and most elaborate power-producing machinery required for industrial purposes in Australia. I will take the constituency of the honorable member who has moved this amendment. When the Tariff Commission visited the Great Boulder mine,they saw there a mill engine of. 750 horse power. The engine was made in Melbourne by the Austral Otis Company. The manager of the mine gave a certificate to the Otis Company testifying to the satisfactoriness of its work. That is an answer to the charge that this machinery cannot be made in Australia.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– It was made under the old duty.

Sir JOHN QUICK:

– There is the motive power in operation at the present time, and it has given satisfaction to the purchasers. ‘ Then, again, in the Boulder Perseverance Mine, there is a winding engine which is the most powerful engine of its kind in the Kalgoorlie field. That also is of Australian make. It was manufactured by the Austral Otis Company. It is a thoroughly satisfactory engine, and the manager of the mine has given a certificate to that effect to the makers. Those are instances in which the local makers had an opportunity to obtain plans and specifications to enable them to compete. But all the mining companies have not given the Australian firms an opportunity of making their machinery. On the contrary, some of them have given orders direct to English and American firms, and others have asked. English and American firms to send in prices for machinery without supplying plans and specifications to enable the local makers to have a chance. As to the reason why plans and specifications have not been supplied to the Australian companies, I make no reflection upon the mining managers. They are a splendid lot of men, and I believe they would give fair play to our Australian industries if they had their own way. But most of the companies that are creating this clamour are British-owned, having their head offices in London, the directors being probably interested in other enterprises and inclined to give a preference to British productions. I say that if these mining companies would prepare plans and specifications of the machinery they require, and call for tenders in Australia, they would get the machinery made as well in this country as in any part of the world. It is only a matter of duty and opportunity. What we want is a higher duty to secure fair play for our own manufactures.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I congratulate my honorable friend who has just resumed his seat on the triumphant cheers which greeted him from the Government benches.

Sir William Lyne:

– He made a very good speech !

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I should like to say to the honorable member just one word - and I think it is time to say it in this House - that he must not expect this fiscal question to be settled on a basis of prohibition.

Mr Watson:

– A duty of 25 per cent. is not prohibition.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I should like to remind the honorable member, too, that there are other States which must be considered in the settlement of this question than the one which he particularly represents and speaks for. The honorable member has been pleading for Victorian manufacturers, and for none other. These are Victorian duties, which to-morrow would be scouted if they were referred to all Australia.

Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– It is a great pity to bring in that sort of consideration.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– It is about time to bring it in. It is being brought in by honorable members constantly.

Mr Austin Chapman:

– It is a slander on New South Wales to say such a thing.

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

– A slander on Queensland, too.

Sir John Forrest:

– We ought to be able to deal with the question on its merits.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I am dealing with it on its merits. The honorable member for Bendigo has said that we cannot have fiscal peace unless we pass practically prohibitive duties. He will find out that that is not the way to secure fiscal peace, and that there are more States than one to be consulted in regard to the question. I am tired of hearing the cry of fiscal peace raised as a reason for voting prohibitive duties. In that connexion the whole of Australia must be considered. I do not believe that Australia to-day is in favour of the fixing of these duties at the high rates proposed by the Government. - I should like to make some reference to what I thought was an implied reflection by the honorable member for Bendigo on the management of mines in Western Australia. The honorable member says that the managers, if they were free agents, would be glad to place their orders for mining machinery in Victoria and elsewhere in Australia, but that they are under the domination “ of directorates having their head offices in London. The implication that these mining managers are not free agents in the control of the mines, is an unworthy reflection upon a body of independent men obtaining their machinery, I believe, where they think they ought to get it.

Mr Watson:

– The directors have a voice in the determination of where their machinery shall be obtained.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I should like to hear of a London directorate of one of the huge mines in Western Australia which would dictate to its manager on the field where he should obtain his machinery. I do not believe that there is such dictation. No manager with so huge a responsibility upon his shoulders would submit to it.

Mr HANS IRVINE:
GRAMPIANS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910

– They have an absolutely free hand.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I should think so. If it be true as has been said - and I believe it is - that magnificent mining machines, made in the eastern States, are doing splendid work in Western Australia, what a triumph for the old duty it is. If we were able under the old Tariff to make such machinery, and to ship it to the West, why do we need these high prohibitive duties to. foster a strangled industry? Nearly all the mining managers in Western Australia are unanimous in their request that these duties should be lowered. Here are their statements. Does the honorable member for Bendigo suggest that they are not honest, or that the mine managers were acting under compulsion on the part of the London directors in submitting them tous? I do not believe it. “ We have heard during this debate repeated references to the Austral Otis Engineering Company.

Sir John Quick:

– The Mort’s Dock EngineeringCompany applied for’ the same duty.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I am afraid that my honorable friend is too ready to listen to all that interested persons have to say. He seems to think that the mere fact that interested persons ask forthese dutiesis conclusive evidence of their need. Who would not ask when he knew that he might receive? Who would not say in such circumstances that he wished to dip into the public Treasury ? Such statements have no right to be considered unless they were proved up to the hilt before the Tariff Commission. The Commission was appointed to investigate every statement regarding the Tariff, and to prove or disprove it. I should not have spoken to this question but for the statement made by the honorable member for Bendigo, which, I think, was unworthy of him, in regard to the position of mine managers. In order to buttress up his case, he had to make a reflection upon a body of men as independent and as capable as are any to be found in Australia, and men who above all others would not brook any dictation in the management of their mines. I shall vote for the amendment moved by the honorable member for Kalgoorlie, that the general Tariff be 20 per cent. - and that the duty on imports from the United Kingdom be 15 per cent. - not because I think that we ought to impose a duty of 20 per cent., but because I believe it is all that we shall be likely to get. If I thought we had the slightest chance of reverting to the old duty I should propose an amendment accordingly, but since I think that there is no chance of our doing so, I shall vote for this compromise.

Mr FOWLER:
Perth

.Since my night’s rest has been broken, I! intend now to justify the work that I did as a member of the Tariff Commission 011 this item and the promises I have made to my constituents in connexion) with it. I agree with the honorable member for Bendigo that the engineering firms asked for duties of 25 per cent:; but many of those employed in the industry asked for double that rate. If the honorable gentleman is looking at the matter from the stand-point of the workman, he should advocate duties of not 25 but 50 per cent. We were told by some in the industry that duties of 25 per cent. are of no use to them ; that what they want is prohibition. If protection is worth anything at all to the working men of Australia, the protective duties should be raised until they become absolutely prohibitive. A great deal of the equipment of Australian mines has been made by Australian engineering firms. I was glad to see that evidenceof the willingness of the managers of those mines to use Australian productions as much as possible. But while much of what they require is made in Australia, they said that it is absolutely impossible to procure within the Commonwealth everything that they need, and they asked to be permitted to import special machinery, without being penalized by duties which would seriously handicap the development of the industry. The honorable member for Bendigo has insinuated that the mining managers are influenced by their directors in London to purchase machinery outside Australia.

Sir William Lyne:

– I have heard the same thing many times.

Mr FOWLER:

– One after another of the mining managers came before the Tariff Commission, and all swore that they had an absolutely free hand in ordering what they thought necessary for their mines. Nearly all of them are Australians by birth, and expressed the desire to use Australian machinery as much as possible. They said that it is only in cases of absolute necessity that they go outside the Commonwealth. I hold in my hand a letter which has been sent to me by one of the best-known and most-respected managers in Western Australia, a gentleman who stands as high as any one in the mining world. His reputation for honesty and integrity is unsullied, and his word shouldbe taken absolutely and entirely. He was Presi- dent of the Western Australian Chamber of Mines when the Tariff Commission visited Western Australia, but was unable to give evidence. At the time I thought that he might have made a special effort to do so, and I was . inclined to draw what proved subsequently to be an altogether false conclusion. The gentleman to whom I refer is Mr. Richard Hamilton, the manager of the Great Boulder Proprietary Gold Mining Company. Although he did not come before the TariffCommission, he sent to the Chairman a letter in which he explained bis attitude in regard to duties. I believe I am correct in saying that that letter was not taken into consideration by the Chairman in drawing up his reports, and that it was not placed amongst the papers of the Commission. The letter which I received from Mr. Hamilton, enclosing a copy of a letter which he sent to the Chairman of the Tariff Commission, was as follows -

The Great Boulder Propty. Gold Mines Ltd.,

Boulder, W.A.,17th October, 1907.

The Hon. J. M. Fowler. M.P.,

Parliament House, Melbourne, Victoria.

My dear sir, -

Mr. Kirwan has written me regarding a recent conversation he had with you on the Tariff question, when you expressed a doubt that my published opinions as President of the Chamber of Mines did not correctly reflect my private views. In order to dispel any misconception, I hasten to inform you that there is no divergence between them. Although in favour of a low Tariff for revenue purposes, and to prevent importers’ monopolies, I am strongly opposed to duties that will tend to cripple primary industries, in order to maintain manufactories that must eventually entirely depend upon the indigenous industries.

With so small a population in the Commonwealth, the prohibitory duties on high -class machinery seem to invite monopoly by a firm that might be induced to undertake the manufacture, for there is not demand enough within the Commonwealth to adequately employ even one firm, if that firm will spend a sufficient amount of money to keep it abreast of the progress made by manufacturers in the older manufacturing countries. The effect would be a great increase in the immediate cost of the machines and inferiority of design and workmanship.

I do not think I can do better than enclose for your perusal a copy of my letter of the 3rd October,1905, to the Chairman of the Tariff Commission, wherein I have set out at length my private views on the import duties on mining machinery. I also send you a report of an interview published in the Kalgoorlie Miner on the 31st August, 1907.

In conclusion, I may add that the opinions expressed by the protectionist section of the Tariff Commission in paragraph 12 of their report are quite in accord with my views, viz. : - That wherever price and efficiency of production will allow them to do so, the mine managers will always give the preference to Australian manufactures.

You are at liberty to make whatever use you deem necessary of this letter.

Yours faithfully,

Rd. Hamilton.

The letter sent by Mr. Hamilton to the Chairman of the Tariff Commission is as follows -

Kalgoorlie, 3rd October, 1905.

The Chairman,

Royal Commission on the Commonwealth Tariff, Kalgoorlie.

Sir,

I regret that, having been called away on urgent business, I have not had an opportunity of appearing before the Commission to give evidence in support of more favorable treatment in the matter of import duties on machinery and requisites used in connexion with the mining industryof this State.

The reasons which led me to take up the position of advocating a reduction in the duties on machinery - which I think should be classed as “tools of trade” in this industry - and on materials used in the pursuit of mining, are briefly as follows -

We have in this State an enormous area of auriferous country awaiting development. So far only the richer mines are being worked ; but the future will entirely depend on the lower grade deposits, of which a large number, almost payable under present conditions, are already known to exist.

If by means of good and cheap machinery we are placed in a better position to open up these low grade mines, it will be to the material advantage of the whole community of this State.

Unlike other industries, the product of gold mining is not of fluctuating value, and having established our mining industry on a wider basis, we need have no fear of the profitable disposal of the product, inasmuch as a standard price is always obtainable. . Mining is a natural industry, and in it Western Australia has no fear of outside competition. Every extra man employed directly supports on the average four other persons; this can easily be proved by taking the number of workers in any group of mines in the State, and it will be seen that where100 workers have found employment a community of about 500 congregates in the neighbourhood.

It seems to me that by encouraging the mining industry we are, by its expansion, creating a greater demand for the manufactured products of subsidiary industries,and that by natural growth the latter can hone for ‘more assistance than the artificial support of protective duties.

I do not wish to discourage the manufacture in Australia of the simpler lines of machinery which the local manufacturers are able to produce in competition with the outside world, but I am convinced that Western Australia’s first consideration must be the development of its great primary industry of mining.

This State affords an excellent example of the fact that there is nothing which will open up a new country so quickly as gold mining. j have no doubt that in the course of time the expansion of the mining industry and the consequent growth of the agricultural and pastoral industries, due to the increase of population, a greater demand will be created for machinery, which Australian manufacturers will be able to make, but in the meantime it is a distinct disadvantage, froma mining point of view, that the industry should pay protective duties to enable local manufacturers to supply us with copies of high class machinery and often, I am sorry to say, very bad copies.

In my opinion, the population of the Commonwealth is loo small and too scattered to expect the establishment of manufactories on a sufficiently large scale,and equipped with the costly tools necessary to make high class machinery, either in the field of steam and electricity.

From my intimate knowledge of the goldbearing country within a radius of 200 miles from Kalgoorlie, I am sure that for generations to come there will be work provided in the opening up of the low grade bodies to which I have referred, and which have not yet been thoroughly prospected ; and it is more to the advantage of the community at the present stage that every facility should be given to open up these natural resources, than to retard their development by bolstering up what may be termed artificial industries.

So long as there is a population here supported by the gold produced, we can make use of the pastoral value of the gold-fields country to a considerable extent ; otherwise large tracts of good pasture land, suitable for raising cattle and sheep for local consumption, must remain unutilized.

I, personally, would advocate the removal of the duties on all machinery which comes into the country to develop its mineral resources andgive employment to workers, and would suggest that the revenue which would be lost from the abolition of such duties could be raised by a tax on, say, liquors and narcotics, and articles of luxury, tea, coffee, and several articles of food which cannot be produced in the Commonwealth. These might be legitimately taxed to raise revenue, and a very small duty on such items would return many times more than the amount now raised by duties on mining machinery, &c.

Western Australia essentially differs from all the other States in the necessity for supporting the mining industry, because, owing to the deficiency of the rainfall in the interior and on the gold-fields, the agricultural land does not extend inland very many miles. Unless we keep the industry going on the gold-fields, this particular part of the country will revert again to the wilderness, and the agricultural interests of the State would immediately suffer a serious decline.

My firm conviction is that in the interests of the State it is of paramount importance that the mining industry should receive every legitimate encouragement.

I have read the reports of the evidence submitted by the mining representatives who have appeared before the Commission, in which evidence I fully concur, and as the case has been, in my opinion, well placed before you from the mining point of view, it does not appear to me that I am able to add anything of much importance to the voluminous evidence that has already been submitted.

In these circumstances, it is not my wish to further trespass on the time of the Commission, particularly in view of the fact that the brief time remaining at their disposal in Kalgoorlie will be fully occupied in hearing the evidence which witnesses representing other sections of the community desire to tender. i have the honour to be, sir,

Your obedient Servant, (Signed) Rd. Hamilton.

– That has reference to portable engines, which are not in question under this item.

Mr.MAHON. - The two are intimately related. Portable engines are in the next item ; and I am anxious to see what the honorable member for Bendigo will do in this connexion. That class of engine is not manufactured here; it is absolutely necessary under the conditions of this particular company. It is mainly composed of working miners; and they recently held a meeting, at which resolutions were passed demanding a reduction of the duty. I remind honorable members that in Western Australia, as the honorable member for Swan, is aware, there are many one-mine towns, which are dependent on low-grade ores ; and, if the high prohibitive duties favoured by the honorable member for Bendigo, by raising the cost of machinery, have the result of rendering such mines unprofitable, not only will the foundries of Bendigo, Castlemaine, and Melbourne not receive orders, but unemployed miners will be thrown on the labour market in competition with the workers of the towns. We have heard enough about the bigmines at Kalgoorlie and Broken Hill; and I do not desire to detainthe Committee by any further reference to them. I am sure that the honorable member for Bendigo desires only what is fair and right in the interests of the whole of Australia. I do not accuse him of speaking merely on behalf of Victorian foundries; he had given proof of his zeal as a Federalist long before we ever dealt with the Tariff ; and we all give him the utmost credit for being a good Australian. I point out, however, that if, by any action of his the low-grade mines of Western Australia are closed, and the miners, who have been fertilizing other portions of Australia with the proceeds of their industry, are thrown out of employment, the expenditure by the Postal and other Departments, in extending the conveniences of civilization, will be lost. Some of these small centres will disappear from the map, and the workers, instead of receiving remunerative employment, will be thrown into competition with workers elsewhere. I am sure that that is not a consummation the honorable member desires; and I place it before the Committee as a consideration which ought not to be excluded in dealing with this duty.

Question - That the figures “ 30 “ be left out - resolved in the affirmative.

Question - That the figures “ 20 “ be inserted - put.

The Committee divided.

AYES: 26

NOES: 25

Majority … … 1

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Amendment of the amendment agreed to.

Amendment (by Mr. Frazer) agreed to-

That the amendment be amended by leaving out the figures “ 25,” paragraph b.

Amendment (by Mr. Frazer) put -

That the figures “ 15 “ be inserted in lieu of the figures “25,” just left out.

The Committee divided.

AYES: 25

NOES: 26

Majority …. … 1

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Amendment (by Mr. Fuller) negatived -

That the figures”17½” be inserted in lieu of the figures “ 25,” just left out.

Amendment (by Mr. Fisher) agreed to -

That the figures “ 20 “ be inserted “in lieu of the figures “2.5,” just left out.

Proposednew item, as amended, agreed to.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– I said earlier in the evening that I would be prepared to adjourn when the consideration of the item which has just been dealt with had been completed.

Mr Fowler:

– The Treasurer also stated that we should cease work each evening at about 11 o’clock.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– That arrangement was conditional upon fair progress being made. In the circumstances, I do not think it would be fair to ask members to deal with any fresh items this morning. Of course, there are times when the Government might feel compelled to proceed further. If such a long debate had not taken place upon this item in the early portion of the day it would have been disposed of by 10 or 11 o’clock last evening.

Progress reported.

page 6673

SPECIAL ADJOURNMENT

Motion (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to -

That the House, at its rising, adjourn until 2 p.m. to-day.

House adjourned at 2.45 a.m. (Wednesday).

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 26 November 1907, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1907/19071126_reps_3_42/>.

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House of Representatives26 November 1907

PETITION

QUESTION

BUTTER BOXES : BOND

Mr JOHN THOMSON:COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · PROT; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:Minister for Trade and Customs · EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

QUESTION

PARLIAMENT HOUSE

Mr JOHNSON:LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr Bruce Smith:

Mr JOHNSON:

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr Johnson:

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr MALONEY:MELBOURNE, VICTORIA

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr Johnson:

QUESTION

CLOSURE

Mr BRUCE SMITH:

Mr DEAKIN:Minister for External Affairs · BALLAARAT, VICTORIA · Protectionist

QUESTION

CHINESE HELMETS FOR POSTAL OFFICIALS

Mr BATCHELOR:BOOTHBY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr MAUGER:Postmaster-General · MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA · Protectionist

QUESTION

CRIMEA AND INDIAN MUTINY VETERANS

Sir JOHN FORREST:SWAN, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr DEAKIN:Protectionist

Mr MALONEY:

Mr DEAKIN:

QUESTION

JAPANESE IRON INDUSTRY

Mr McDOUGALL:WANNON, VICTORIA

Mr DEAKIN:Protectionist

MANUFACTURES ENCOURAGEMENT BILL

Mr PALMER:ECHUCA, VICTORIA

Mr DEAKIN:Protectionist

QUESTION

SOUTH AFRICAN WARPROMOTION OF OFFICERS

Mr JOSEPH COOK:PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr Maloney:

Mr JOSEPH COOK:PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr EWING:Minister for Defence · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

Mr Page:

Mr EWING:

Mr Page:

Mr EWING:

Mr Maloney:

Mr EWING:

Mr Bruce Smith:

Mr EWING:

QUESTION

GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, SYDNEY

Mr J H CATTS:COOK, NEW SOUTH WALES

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:Treasurer · HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

QUESTION

LIGHT HORSE BRIGADE CAMP

Mr STORRER:for Mr. Harper

Mr EWING:Protectionist

QUESTION

TARIFF

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

Mr Watkins:

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

Mr HUME COOK:BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

Mr Bruce Smith:

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

Mr TILLEY BROWN:INDI, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC

Sir William Lyne:

Mr TILLEY BROWN:INDI, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC

Mr HUME COOK:BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

Mr TILLEY BROWN:INDI, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

Mr TILLEY BROWN:INDI, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

Mr Frazer:

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

House of Representatives
26 November 1907

Mr JOHN THOMSON:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · PROT; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
Minister for Trade and Customs · EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

Mr JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr MALONEY:
MELBOURNE, VICTORIA

Mr DEAKIN:
Minister for External Affairs · BALLAARAT, VICTORIA · Protectionist

Mr BATCHELOR:
BOOTHBY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr MAUGER:
Postmaster-General · MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA · Protectionist

Sir JOHN FORREST:
SWAN, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

Mr McDOUGALL:
WANNON, VICTORIA

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

Mr PALMER:
ECHUCA, VICTORIA

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr EWING:
Minister for Defence · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

Mr J H CATTS:
COOK, NEW SOUTH WALES

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

Mr STORRER:
for Mr. Harper

Mr EWING:
Protectionist

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

Mr TILLEY BROWN:
INDI, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC

Mr TILLEY BROWN:
INDI, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

Mr TILLEY BROWN:
INDI, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

Mr TILLEY BROWN:
INDI, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC

Mr TILLEY BROWN:
INDI, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC

Mr TILLEY BROWN:
INDI, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC

Mr BRUCE SMITH:
Parkes

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

Mr TILLEY BROWN:
INDI, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES · PROT; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr SALMON:
Laanecoorie