House of Representatives
31 October 1907

3^rd Parliament · 2^nd Session

PETITION
DUTY ON POTATO FLOUR
BOUNTIES BILL
QUESTION
- MAIL SERVICE TO EUROPE
QUESTION
- HIGH COMMISSIONER
QUESTION
- CUP DAY
QUESTION
- IMPERIAL CONFERENCES
QUESTION
- OVERTIME : SYDNEY GENERAL POST OFFICE
QUESTION
- RABBIT PEST: INTRODUCTION OF DISEASE
SUGAR REBATES
QUESTION
- TARIFF
EXCISE PROCEDURE BILL

Mr. Speaker took the chair at 2.30 p.m., and read prayers.

page 5415

PETITION

Mr. HENRY WILLIS presented a petition from Helena Molyneux Parkes, president of a public meeting held in Sydney on the 14th October, embodying its resolutions, and praying the House not to pass into law the high duties proposed in the Tariff.

Petition received and read.

page 5415

DUTY ON POTATO FLOUR

Mr JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I have received the following letter -

In the Argus of this morning we notice you moved that potato flour should be reduced from 2d. to1/2d. per lb., which was the old duty.

We note the Minister struck the item out. Not quite understanding how we stood, inquiries were made at the Customs House this morning, and we now find that potato flour is included as “starch flours, dutiable at21/2d. per lb.” Therefore, the position is worse than ever, the former Government proposal of 200 per cent. having been practical ly increased to 250.

We would point out that this potato flour is used for manufacturing purposes only, as far as we know.

I wish to know by whose authority duty is now being collected on potato flour, seeing that that item was last night struck out of the Tariff, and, although starch flours are dutiable, there is no authority for the collection of duties on potato flour at the rate fixed for starch flours.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

– I told the Committee, when we were dealing with the proposed duty on potato flour, that I was willing to permit the item to be struck out, so that when we had under consideration the duty on other starch flours we might deal with them all together, as in the Kingston Tariff.

page 5415

BOUNTIES BILL

Mr. BAMFORD. When will the Senate’s amendments of the BountiesBill be submitted for discussion?

Mr GROOM:
Attorney-General · DARLING DOWNS, QUEENSLAND · Protectionist

– There are two measures - the Excise Procedure Bill and the Australian Industries Preservation Bill - which are more urgent than the Bounties Bill, but it is thedesire of the Government to pass the latter as soon as possible, if it can be done without unduly delaying the consideration of the Tariff.

Mr Bamford:

– The consideration of the Senate’s amendments should not take more than an hour or two.

Mr GROOM:

– I do not think that it will take very long. The amendments made by the Senate are not very extensive.

page 5415

QUESTION

MAIL SERVICE TO EUROPE

Mr BOWDEN:
NEPEAN, NEW SOUTH WALES

– When will the Prime

Minister be in a position to take the House into his confidence in reference to the proposed new mail contract?

Mr DEAKIN:
Minister for External Affairs · BALLAARAT, VICTORIA · Protectionist

– I doubt that I can do so to-morrow, but hope to do so on Tuesday or Wednesday.

Mr EDWARDS:
OXLEY, QUEENSLAND

– Is the Prime Minister trying to provide that Brisbane shall be a, port of call for steamers under the new mail contract?

Mr DEAKIN:

– When tenders were invited tenderers were given the widest scope for suggesting additions to the service which would render it more useful to Australia, and were asked to state the terms upon which they could be made. Full advantage has been taken of that invitation, and a number of contingencies are provided for which are now under consideration.

page 5416

QUESTION

HIGH COMMISSIONER

Mr SALMON:
LAANECOORIE, VICTORIA

– In view of the con tinued misrepresentations and misapprehension in London concerning Australian affairs, will the Prime Minister take steps to provide for the appointment of an officer to represent the Commonwealth there ?

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

– The High Commissioner Bill will be introduced, and its consideration proceeded with, so soon as the Tariff is disposed of.

page 5416

QUESTION

CUP DAY

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
DARWIN, TASMANIA

– In view of the fact that the Victorian Government has declared Tuesday next- Cup Day - a public holiday, that the occasion is a great ore for the gathering of Christians from all parts of Australia, and that most members, being Christians, desire to attend, will the Prime Minister arrange for the meeting of the House then at half-past 7 instead of at half-past 2 p.m.? If he does he will be sure of aquorum.

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

– The arrangement made the year before last, when we agreed that Mr. Speaker should take the chair at halfpast 2, and, if a quorum were not then present, resume it again at half-past 7 p.m., was regarded as satisfactory.

Mr King O’Malley:

– It was not a fair arrangement.

Mr Thomas:

– We ought to agree either to meet at the usual hour or not to do so. In my opinion, we should meet at 2.30 p.m. as usual.

Mr DEAKIN:

– The circumstances under which we are now sitting do not permit us to weigh this proposal as we might in an ordinary year, when we might be inclined to alter our hour of sitting. Any delay in dealing with the Tariff would be so serious that we cannot afford to lose even a few hours.

page 5416

QUESTION

IMPERIAL CONFERENCES

Mr CROUCH:
CORIO, VICTORIA

asked the Prime Minister upon notice -

In the representation of the Commonwealth in future Imperial Conferences, will he endeavour to arrange - so as to place these gatherings upon a democratic and permanent basis- that those members, additional to its Prime Minister, representing Australia shall be chosen by popular election?

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

– The answer to the honorable member’s question is as follows-

The late Conference widened the representation so as to include Ministers generally whenever questions affecting their Departments are under consideration. The next Conference summoned upon the same principle will assemble four years hence. It will rest with the Commonwealth Government of that period to submit its proposals for any changes in the construction of the Conference which it may desire. These, if approved, would, of course, be subject to ratification by the Parliaments of the United Kingdom and the Dominions.

page 5416

QUESTION

OVERTIME : SYDNEY GENERAL POST OFFICE

Mr JOHNSON:

asked the PostmasterGeneral, upon notice -

Is it a fact that certain officers in the Sydney G.P.O., in the Electrical and Account Branches, are still required to work excessive hours. Are any officers required to work from 8.30 a.m., or . 9 a.m., until 9, 10, and 11 p.m., with no time off except three-quarters of an hour for dinner and one hour for tea?
What is the highest amount of overtime worked by any individual officer in any one day?
In connexion with a recent examination for two testing officers, Professional Division, were officers in the Electrical Branch refused time off after the tea hour for a few weeks in order to study for such examination, although willing to work from 9 a.m. until the tea hour, 6 p.m. ?
Is it a fact that one officer who was refused such time off after tea was further refused the right of appeal to the Public Service Commissioner. Was such refusal of an appeal in accordance with the usual departmental policy? ‘

Mr MAUGER:
Postmaster-General · MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA · Protectionist

– The information is being obtained, and will be furnished as early as possible:

page 5417

QUESTION

RABBIT PEST: INTRODUCTION OF DISEASE

Mr CHANTER:
RIVERINA, NEW SOUTH WALES

asked the Minister of Trade and Customs, upon notice -

Referring to previous question on the subject, has he made inquiries regarding the attempt by a New South Wales sheepbreeder to surreptitiously introduce a new rabbit disease into Australia ?
If so, is he prepared to state the result of those inquiries, and the name of the sheepbreeder alluded to?

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
Minister for Trade and Customs · EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow -

Yes. It is proposed to lay papers before Parliament.
So far, the name of the sheepbreeder in question has not been ascertained.

page 5417

SUGAR REBATES

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
Protectionist

– On the 29th October, the honorable member for Kennedy, on behalf of the honorable member for Coolgardie, asked - Hansard, page 5240 - in reference to the export of £419,530 worth of fruit mentioned in the Budget Papers, what were the sugar contents, what sum was allowed the exporters, when was the practice of allowing rebate commenced, and whether rebate is allowed on the sugar contents of beer, wine, preserved milk, andother articles. It was promised that the information would be obtained, and I am now supplied with the following replies -

8th January, 1902.
Drawback is allowed on sugar contents of the following : -

Confectionery Fruits, canned and

Jams and Jellies, preserved,

Jellies (table) in Milk, condensed, packets, Chocolate.

The amounts allowed till end of 1906 as drawback on the several items were : -

page 5417

QUESTION

TARIFF

In Committee of Ways and Means (Consideration resumed from 30th October, vide page 5366) :

Item 68. Hay and Chaff, per cwt.,1s.

Upon which Mr. Thomas Brown had moved, by way of amendment -

That the words “ and on and after 31st October, 1907, free,” be added.

And Mr. McWilliams -

That the amendment be amended by adding the words “ until 31st October, 1908.”

The whole of the country embraced in the Camden electorate, extending from the mean angle to Liverpool, is experiencing the rigours of an exceptionally severe drought. In several respects, it is asserted that the districts have never previously passed through such a time of tribulation as is now being endured . Mr. F. W. A. Downes, M.L.A., who has had years of experience as a farmer on an extensive scale at Brownlow Hill, unhesitatingly pronounces the present as the worst season during that period. His carefully-kept rain records for the last twenty years are especially interesting just now, and they may be accepted as a criterion for the whole electorate. They show that the last succession of good years terminated in 1894, in which year there was a total of 35.22 inches, while the average for that and the previous four years was about 40 inches. There have only been two good years in the last period of 1900 and 1904, when the rainfall amounted to 39 and 35.8 inches respectively. In 1905 there is a record of 20.25, and in 1906 it fell to 18.08. This year to date only 10 inches have been vouchsafed, and of this only 1 inch has fallen during the past four months. A very serious aspect of this continued absence of adequate replenishing supplies of moisture is that the ground has never been thoroughly saturated for three years, and the water supply has generally become more and more limited. The creeks upon which farmers away from the river frontages have been dependent have stopped running, and in most instances the large holes in the beds of these’ watercourses have also dried up. . . . The dairy cows and other stock, as a general thing, look better than might be, expected. This is entirely owing to the careful way they have been nursed by their owners. It has entailed great expense”, but hand-feeding has been followed without intermission practically the whole of the year, and, generally speaking, the stock have not been allowed to get into hopelessly low condition. How much longer this can be kept up is the problem. Many previously prosperous farmers, who have done a good deal to make the district what it was at its best, have exhausted their resources and their credit. The immediate future for such looks dark indeed.

I should now like to direct attention to the South Coast district in regard to which the special reporter says -

Most doleful news come from the South Coast. Each item tells a more distressing tale than the last, and the farmer one meets in the city is almost unable to describe the condition of affairs in his district. At sales of fodder every day South Coast farmers are regular buyers, and they are called upon to pay high prices for very poor stuff.

– Who said that?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member did. He declared that we were willing to allow the manufacturers to go to the wall so long as the interests of the primary producers were safeguarded. I make bold to say that there is more genuine . sympathy with the bond fide manufacturer to be found upon this side of the chamber than there is to be found upon the other side.

Mr Hutchison:

– Lip sympathy.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member has spoken with so much confidence because he has only viewed one side of this question. In the same way the Treasurer has regarded this supremely important matter to Australia from only one aspect. He has quoted figures to show that during times of drought we have not imported very much fodder, but that during such periods there have been large InterState transfers of fodder. He has argued that we have no need to remit the proposed duty, because we have sufficient fodder to tweet all our requirements. If his statement be accurate, how is it that we have witnessed such a positive holocaust upon the bare and barren fields of Australia?

I could understand the Treasurer’s argument had we been able to keep all our stock alive. But the fact is that after we have exhausted our supplies, after we have imported all that we can afford to purchase, millions of sheep have perished for want of fodder. Their owners were unable to purchase it at a price which would permit of the stock being kept alive. Does not the Treasurer see that the moment fodder touches an unreasonable price our stock must die? That is the point. It is not a question of what movements of an Inter-State character may have taken place during times of drought in the matter of fodder or grain supplies. Everything depends upon the price which has to be paid for these supplies, and whether it has paid the stock-owners to keep their starving stock alive. The figures of Coghlan tell their own sad tale of what the price of fodder must have been in those years. Had the Treasurer desired to present the Committee with a complete statement of the case, he would have told us what were the average prices which ruled for fodder during the drought years. We should then have been able to draw our own inferences. In his statistics Coghlan points out that during the ten years prior to 1903 there had been more or less of drought conditions obtaining in Australia. Owing to the difficulty experienced in feeding our live stock, there was a decrease in the number of our sheep from 1,06,000,000 to 55,000,000. In other words, half our sheep died during those years. That is the answer to all the twaddle which is talked about there being sufficient fodder in Australia to keep our starving stock alive.

Mr Hutchison:

– If fodder had been only half the price, the stock would still have died.

Mr Watson:

– A lot of stock would not have been saved if fodder had been at the lowest possible price upon the coast.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

-I am not suggesting that all of the stock which perished would have been’ saved, but I do say that the death-roll would have been very much less if cheap fodder instead of dear fodder had been obtainable.

Mr Hutchison:

– Where would the honorable member get cheap fodder ?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member said just now that we had plenty of fodder for all our stock requirements in Australia.I have quoted figures to show that during the ten years prior to 1903 more than half our sheep died. If we had all those sheep to-day we should be millions sterling richer than we are. Is it notstrange that those honorable members who are most demonstrative in this debate represent portions of Australia which are particularly well off in the matter of fodder for stock? The honorable member for Hindmarsh hails from a State which is enjoying most favorable conditions just now. The honorable member for Wannon, who has just left the chamber, and who has been interjecting that it is unnecessary to remit the proposed duty upon fodder, represents one of the most favoured constituencies in Australia, where, I believe, at the present time the. cattle are nearly hidden in the fulness of the growth which obtains.

Mr Storrer:

– That shows that we have plenty of fodder in Australia.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– That is an absurd statement to make ! What nonsense it is to suggest that because there are some rich and succulent paddocks in particular portions of this continent we have sufficient fodder for all our stock requirements. It is true that there are some beautiful spots in the Commonwealth, which are still enjoying most prosperous conditions because of their assured rainfall. But the fact remains that in the remote portions of the continent there exists a state of drought and disaster. There the stock-owners are feeding their flocks where they can, and allowing them’ to perish where they cannot. The story that I have told in regard to sheep is also applicable to cattle. During the two years mentioned by the Treasurer there was a decrease of 20.000,000 in our sheep alone.

Mr Hutchison:

– Did they not die in New South Wales when no fodder duties were operative?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– But they did not die in such numbers.

Sir William Lyne:

– Yes, they did.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Will the Treasurer permit me to proceed. In ordinary years they do not die in such quantities as to reduce the total number of our flocks. But in the two years which I have indicated 20,000,000 of sheep were lost to Australia.

Mr FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– To whatyears is the honorable member referring?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– To the years from. 1901 to 1903 inclusive.

Mr Watson:

– But owing to the lack of means to conserve water internally millions of sheep died in New South Wales when no fodder duties were in operation.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I am not disputing that. I am disputing that stock died in such quantities during ordinary seasons as to diminish the total number of our flocks.

Mr Watson:

– But in 1898, 1899, and 1900, they did die in such quantities as to diminish the number of our flocks.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Coghlan points out that the years mentioned by the honorable member were for the most part drought-stricken years. The simple answer to the honorable member’s statement is that more stock would have died during those years if a duty upon fodder had been operative.

Mr Watson:

– There was no duty upon fodder then.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The position is in a nut-shell: Can the honorable member purchase as much fodder at ^5 per ton as he can at £4. per ton? If he has to pay jQi per ton duty in addition to the famine prices for fodder in drought time, he can, feed less stock than he could if fodder were plentiful and cheap. The Minister told us of the quantities of fodder which were moved from one State to another during the last drought; but he ought also to have told us of the millions of sheep which rotted on the plains because fodder could not be obtained for them at reasonable prices.

Mr Sampson:

– Should not those who grow hay receive consideration?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– They do. In times of drought the prices of their produce are double and treble what they are in ordinary times. The question is, should we make them higher still by agreeing to this duty.

Mr Sampson:

– Why should the farmers be the only class in the community not permitted to take advantage of a duty ?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Duties on produce give no advantage to the farmers, except in times of drought, when the bulk of the land-holders of Australia are suffering loss to the extent of millions of pounds. The loss of flocks affects not only the pastoralists, but, through them, the secondary industries of the community, arid causes the Commonwealth itself almost to stagger. The question is, should a few individuals “Mr. Sampson. - The farmers are a considerable section.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Of course they are, but those who have fodder to sell in times of drought are very few in comparison with those who want to buy it, and in this, as in all other matters of legislation, we must consider the greatest good of the greatest number. We ought not, in times of national disaster, to make it more difficult for the pastoralists to feed their starving flocks. I find from a newspaper that to-day wheat is 6s. a bushel, flour £12 15s. a ton, maize 5s. a bushel, and hay £7 a ton.

Sir William Lyne:

– The duties have nothing to do with those prices.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– If it were not for the duty, hay would be £6 a ton.

Mr Watkins:

– It is ^7 a ton at Maitland, where it is grown.

Mr Fuller:

– The Hunter River district cannot supply us at the present time.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– If it were not for the duty, hay at Maitland would be j£6 a ton.

Sir John Forrest:

– That is a very fair price.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– It is a very high price.

Mr Atkinson:

– The duty could be suspended when prices reached a certain rate.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– We ask that the proposed duty on hay alnd chaff be .free or suspended for twelve months. Queensland and New South Wales are suffering most at the present time. They always suffer most from droughts. As an evidence of the effect of the drought in New South Wales, I call attention to the statement of the Treasurer last night that in his district pastoralists are renting land at 20s. an acre for six months, or at the rate of 40s. “an acre per annum, to depasture sheep. They would not do that unless the drought were very severe.

Sir Willia’M* Lyne:

– The honorable member’s remarks are stupid. He knows nothing about the subject.

Mr Page:

– One does not need to know much about it to know that this is not right.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The Treasurer has been squatting all his life, but he told us the other night that he has nothing, so that he would appear to know all about it. Perhaps that is why he is so ready to lecture squatters who have succeeded, and to tell them what they ought to do in times of drought.

Mr Watson:

– A man engaged in politics has not much time to attend to his private affairs.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Then he might speak more mildly. According to him, no one knows anything about any subject.

Mr Maloney:

– The honorable member is a walking encyclopaedia !

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I know what the figures tell me, and what I am taught by my observation and experience. The prices of the necessaries of life are increasing by leaps and bounds, which seriously affects the poorer classes. To-day, milk in Sydney is 6d. per quart, an increase of 33& Per cent., while bread is 3½d. per loaf, which is more than it was five or six years’ ago, during the last drought.

Mr Fisher:

– That is because of the high price of grain in other parts of the world.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– If the price of grain in other parts of the world is high, it is absurd to impose a duty to make.it more difficult for our people to obtain. I am in full sympathy with the proposal of the honorable member for Franklin that the operation of this duty be suspended for twelve months.

Mr CHANTER:
Riverina

.- When last this question was discussed in a former Parliament, the circumstances were different from those which at present exist; the Tariff having been passed, and Parliament having no right, by remitting duties, to discriminate between the States. New South Wales asked for the remission of the duties, and the Prime Minister did all he could to persuade the authorities of the other States to agree to their suspension for a certain period ; but three or four of them refused to do so. To-day, however, Parliament is engaged in framing a new Tariff, and can determine whether the proposed duty should be agreed to, and, if so, when it should come into force. I am not in favour of entirely removing the duty on hay and chaff, nor do I think it necessary to suspend it for twelve months ; I think that its suspension for six months would be sufficient. According to a New South Wales official of high repute, who has given great attention to the cycle theory, we ‘shall next year enter upon a really first-class season, to be followed by several others. Those who know the central parts of that State - the Riverina district - are aware that rain, to be of value, must fall at certain periods of the year. Just now, unless it were excessively heavy, and were to be followed by slight showers a few days later, it would be worse than useless. I plead with the representatives of the States which are more fortunately situated at the present time than are New South Wales and Queensland.

Mr Poynton:

– The honorable member should plead with the Minister.

Mr CHANTER:

– I plead with him, too; but he is in the hands 0* the Committee, which must decide this matter. I ask honorable members to consider the special circumstances of the case. No one can deny the seriousness of the present drought. During the last drought the loss of stock- was enormous. No doubt some loss was inevitable, but a great deal more stock would have been saved had fodder been easily obtainable.

Mr Watkins:

– Whence could fodder be imported ?

Mr CHANTER:

– Chiefly from New Zealand. According to the Minister’s statement, the revenue paid on importations of hay and chaff amounted to only £3,670. During the last drought, although hay and chaff were exceedingly dear, as they are now, cereals were much cheaper than they are at present, and were used - wheat especiallyfor keeping animals alive, so many ounces or pounds being allowed per animal. As the Committee has agreed to the duty on cereals, we can give relief only by suspending the operation of the proposed duty on hay and chaff. I ask the representatives of South Australia, Victoria, and Tasmania to remember that the drought will affect not only the large pastoralists; farmers are also suffering. Surely the farmers in the more favoured parts of the Commonwealth should be prepared to forego this protection for a time, in order that, their less fortunate brothers in the drought-stricken areas may be benefited. The honorable member for Parramatta quoted from Coghlan figures showing that as the result of the last drought the sheep of New South Wales were reduced from 63,000,000 to about 30,000,000. After the breaking up of that drought the difficulty of obtaining stock was so great that small farmers had to pay as much as 25s. and 30s. per head for breeding ewes. At the present time, in consequence of the dry season, ewes which four or five months ago were selling at 25s. per head in Riverina are now being sacrificed at 2s. per head in the Melbourne market, because of the inability of their owners to obtain fodder for them. In this connexion the farmers are not producers but consumers ; many of them are compelled to purchase hay .and chaff to keep alive not only their sheep and cattle but the horses which they must employ to put in another crop. Their position is very serious, and since we now have an opportunity to come to their assistance we might fairly agree to a suspension of» this duty. But instead of suspending it, as proposed by the honorable member for Franklin, for twelve months, I think it would be better to move that the suspension should extend until ist May, 1968. I am hopeful that a further suspension will not be necessary, but if at the end . of the period I have mentioned the drought has not broken up we shall be able to take a more drastic step. The honorable member for Parramatta, when referring to the high prices of hay and chaff, forgot to mention that those prices are being obtained not by the producers but by some merchants who have cornered our fodder supplies. As a matter of fact, chaff in Adelaide is selling at from £3 5s. to £3 10s. per ton, whereas in Sydney those prices have been nearly doubled. This shows that a corner has been formed in New South Wales. T should like to aim a blow at the Combine.’ There is no warrant whatever for anything like the prices now being demanded. A few men have manipulated the market, and, having cornered chaff and hay, say in effect to the purchaser, “These are our prices, and you must pay them.”

Mr Watson:

– I doubt whether free imports would correct the trouble.

Mr CHANTER:

– They would not entirely correct the trouble, but they would tend to minimize it.

Mr Watson:

– During the last big drought cargoes of grain stuff entering Sydney Harbor could not find a purchaser except at the ring’s prices.

Mr CHANTER:

– That is so, but if the duties were suspended it would be possible for farmers to obtain supplies direct from other places. On the occasion of the last drought many stock-owners in the drought-stricken areas of New South Wales were able to shift their flocks to the eastern part of that State, where good supplies of grass were obtainable at a fair price. _ At the same time those in the drought-stricken areas of Victoria removed their flocks to the southern part of the State’, where grass lands could be leased at a reasonable rate. But on this occasion even the grass has been cornered, and exorbitant prices are being levied. I know of a case in which 30s. per acre is being paid for a six: months’ lease of grass land. Such a pricecould be paid only in respect of a certain, class of stock. It would be impossible to lease land at so high a rate for the grazing of ordinary flocks. In the Deniliquin district, where stock-owners have been paying highprices for breeding ewes in order to raisetheir flocks to a normal level, we have today the sorry spectacle of thousands of sheep being driven to the freezing works to be boiled down for the little tallow obtainable from their carcasses. This has to be done because fodder cannot be obtained at a reasonable price. It’ is a. national calamity that such a state of affairs should prevail. I intend at the proper time to move that the duty shall be suspended! until ist May, 1908.

Mr ATKINSON:
Wilmot

.- A few moments ago I said, bv way of interjection, that the present high prices of fodder were due to the rotten climate of New South Wales rather than to this duty. That was an unfortunate expression, and lest it should be taken to indicate on my part a want of sympathy for the stockowners of the States where the drought is being severely felt, I wish to explain that my desire was simply to point out that the present high prices were not due to this duty. The duty of is. per cwt. has very little effect on the price.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– It increases it to the extent of is. per cwt.

Mr ATKINSON:

– I think- I. can show that it does not. The unfortunate occurrence of a drought, and not the mere imposition of this duty, has been responsible for the increase in prices. When hay and chaff are selling at £6 per ton in Sydney, there is nothing to prevent prices being regulated by importations from New Zealand or any other country having ‘ surplus supplies. No one recognises more fully thanI do the deplorable effects of a drought onthe people generally. I intend to vote for this duty for the reason that I assigned for the vote which I cast yesterday infavour of a duty on potatoes. When Federation was established, it was understood that the farmers would receive some protection, and, as I told the electors that I should support- the existing duties’, I intend to do so. This duty is not of much assistance to the farmer, but since he cOnsiders that he is entitled to it, he can have it so far as I am concerned. In normal seasons it may protect our producers against importations from New Zealand. Instead of suspending the duty for twelve months, I think it would be better to give the Minister power to suspend it when occasion arises. No advantage would be gained by suspending the duty for six months if a drought extended over three years. In some circumstances, if we had to wait for Parliament to suspend the duty, all the sheep in New South Wales might die before action could be taken.

Mr Page:

– Does the honorable member think it would be fair to place such- a responsibility upon the Minister? If Tasmania were enjoying a good season while the other States were suffering’ from drought, the suspension of the duty would be received with a howl of indignation on the part of the farmers of the island State.

Mr ATKINSON:

– I do not think that the Minister would hesitate in such circumstances to suspend the duty. He would know that he would be fully justified in taking that action if the price of chaff went up, as it has done, to £6 or ^7 a ton. The duty could be re-imposed as soon as the price fell to about £4. per ton. We have heard a great deal about the existence of a ring in New South Wales.

Mr FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– There was such a ring in existence during the last drought, and it has never been removed.

Mr ATKINSON:

– I am sorry to hear it, but that is no reason why the farmer should be- penalized. I have been charged with inconsistency, and “my attitude may afford another opportunity for the honorable member for West Sydney to play the part of Satan reproving sin. I feel, however, that I am perfectly consistent in voting for this duty, because I am acting in accordance with my electioneering platform, and, at any rate, in accordance with what I consider to be the dictates of justice.

Mr SPENCE:
Darling

.- It is a recognised fact that a considerable portion of Australia is very frequently in a condition of drought, and, therefore, it is of no use making any arrangement merely to meet the circumstances- of the present year. In New South Wales alone, sheep were reduced by the last drought from about 61,000,000 head to about 28,000,000 head. I know that that loss extended over several years ; but in one year the loss was about 18,000,000 sheep, and if we value these at £1 per head, we get some idea of the tremendous loss, not only to the owners, but to the community generally. Doubtless by making fodder more accessible some sheep might be saved in time of drought, but, as a matter of fact, owners who are beyond the railway service do not attempt feeding,, removing their stock, if possible,, to districts ‘ where there is grass. Indeed, there are owners of millions of sheep who have decided that in times of drought they will not attempt feeding, but will, depend on moving them, if it be possible, by railway, the State allowing a rebate of 75 per cent, on the ordinary freight I know that in the past some stock-owners, instead of taking their stock by railway, have moved them by road, and carted hay for feeding; but much in- that way cannot.be done, unless, of course, hay is at a very reasonable price. Those who do attempt feeding stock in times of drought are mainly those within 300 miles of the coast ; and in those districts where smaller areas are held. Some honorable members seem to think that the farmers most affected are those who produce grain for sale; but, as a matter of fact, the stock-owners and wool-growers- not big squatters with capital at their backs, but men in a small way - feel more acutely any shortage in the supply of fodder. During the last drought these people made great efforts to feed their stock, seeing that they could not do much in the way of moving them ‘about, owing to the prices charged for pasturage in more favoured districts. We have been informed to-day that as much as 25s. or 30s. an acre for six months was paid for paddocks leased for the purpose of feeding starving stock. Those who are fortunate enough to have such paddocks are now following the example of the ring of which we have heard, and are taking advantage of other people’s sufferings in order to make profit for themselves. In my own electorate I find great extremes ; there are places with very good pasture, and other .places with less pasture than could be found in Bourke-street, and any spare grass is eaten up by grasshoppers. I wish to emphasize the point that, unless some relief is given, either by a remission of the duty or the empowering of the Government to suspend it, stock-owners do not intend to attempt much feeding during the coming drought.

Mr Page:

– Stud stock must be fed.

Mr SPENCE:

– Quite so; but experience of the high prices charged during the last drought has’ caused . stock-owners to determine, as a policy, that they will not again attempt feeding during drought. Many who did make, some attempt to preserve their stock during the last drought lost everything, not having sufficient capital behind their backs to carry them successfully through. We ought to remember that all over the world there is a threatened shortage of cereal supplies ; and here, in the antipodes, our situation may be worse than that of other countries, seeing that in a “time of great scarcity we” should have to depend on ourselves, or,- it may be, on New Zealand. Our local supply is sufficient under normal conditions, but,unfortunately, there is no great demand until what may be called a universal scarcity arises. So long as stock-owners can shift their stock to grass country near the coast” they will not buy fodder, and, only a few weeks ago, when I was in my electorate, I found that the whole of the available railway trucks had been engaged for the purpose of removal. Only on rare occasions does a drought extend to the coastal districts ; and the people of Victoria, as compared with the people of New South Wales, do not know what a drought is. In Victoria, a farmer, who has a tank capable of holding a four weeks’ supply, thinks there is a drought if there is no rain for a month; but in New South Wales it may not rain for four months, and at one place there was no rain for seven years.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– There has been very little rain for seven years on the coast near Sydney!

Mr SPENCE:

– Just so. Leaving the western district, I should like to deal with the circumstances of those who have dairy herds in the coastal districts. Here, the animals are of greater value, and feeding is resorted to:

Mr WATSON:
SOUTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– Where is the fodder got from ?

Mr SPENCE:

– I am pointing out- that when a drought reaches those districts, it is a very serious calamity for the whole country ; and the question arises whether the local supply of fodder is sufficient, and whether some means should not be devised for obtaining fodder supplies from outside. Our only chance in this respect is, I think, in New Zealand. .

Mr Watson:

– The prices in. New Zealand are as high as they are here, owing lo the drought there.

Mr SPENCE:

– I have already said that our present prices are not due to

Tariff influences, but to a world-wide shortage of supply ; and I am afraid that we shall not be able to rely on New Zealand if the drought is going to .be as severe as some people suppose. In dealing with this Tariff we are, I suppose, legislating tor a number of years ahead, and doubtless a suspension o.f this duty might afford some slight help, though I- am afraid it would not “reduce prices very much. But although prices for stock were extremely’, high (some time ago, they are rapidly falling. The price of fodder is increasing, whilst that of stock is decreasing, owing to the fact that the small owners are being compelled to dispose of their stock to prevent them dying of starvation. The position is a very serious one. A great deal has recently been said in reference to the establishment of rings and combines. But it seems to me that such organizations are inevitable under the social conditions under which we live. What is the complaint of the producer to-day? Is it not that the middleman- secures the major portion of the profit? Irrespective of whether or not a duty is levied upon fodder, a combination will endeavour to make all that it can out of that commodity. I should like the Treasurer to recall what happened when the memorable drought of 1002 was in progress. Upon that occasion practically everybody, with the exception of the Commonwealth Parliament, did what they could to assist our stock-owners. The Railways Commissioners carried fodder at freights which ‘ involved them in a- loss, and moved starving stock from place to place at very low rates, whilst the Commonwealth Government collected” from the stock-owners .£500,000 by way of Customs duties.

Mr Sampson:

– The States received most of that money back again.

Mr SPENCE:

– I am quite aware of that. It is our duty to assist the stockowners in time of disaster, and to make the burden imposed upon them as light as possible. In m’v judgment, the best way out of this difficulty is to place fodder upon the free list. If that course is notadopted we ought to vest in the Executive the power to suspend the operation of this duty. The latter mav not he a- very workable plan, and I think that Parliament will be very, loth to adopt it. Nevertheless our stork-owners ought to know definitely what is to be done, so that they may make their arrangements accordingly. I repeat that fodder should be placed upon the free list, but if it is not, the Executive should be given power to suspend the operation of the duty.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– - The honorable member for Parramatta has made some observations as to the losses sustained by New South Wales during the great drought of 1901-2-3. I Wish that he had referred to figures for years further back. I intend to show the Committee the losses of stock sustained by New South Wales when there was no fodder duty operative, in that State. In 1891 New South Wales possessed the largest number of sheep that she has ever had, namely, 62,000,000. Bad seasons were experienced, and, as a result, in 1894, the number of her sheep had been reduced to 56,000,000 ; in 1898 it had declined to 41,000,000 ; and in 1899, to 36,000,000. Honorable members will observe that these losses were sustained before the imposition, of the Commonwealth Tariff. It will thus be seen that the number of her sheep was reduced by 26,000,000 at a time when the stockowners were at liberty to buy their supplies anywhere, conclusively proving that the absence, of a duty had no effect in the saving of stock.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I did not say that it had.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– I am merely emphasizing the point which I made previously. New South Wales has not since sustained such a big loss, in sheep. The operation of the duty upon fodder has had no effect whatever in that direction.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– In quoting the figures which he did regarding the losses of sheep sustained in New South Wales, the Treasurer attempted to convey an entirely wrong impression of my remarks upon this subject. What I said was that the losses in sheep were sustained in spite either of the .duty upon fodder or of the supplies which were available in Australia. I declared that stock died simply because there was not sufficient fodder to keep them alive. When sheep are perishing by millions, it is absurd to impose a duty upon fodder merely for the purpose of making it dearer, and consequently more difficult to obtain.

Mr GLYNN:
Angas

.- I think that the honorable member for Darling has suggested the proper method of dealing with this item, namely, the placing of it upon the free list. The suggestion that the operation of the duty should be suspended is open to all sorts of objections. In the first place, it would really amount to an intimation to persons in advance of what the duty would be upon a certain date, a course of procedure which is opposed to all rules of Customs administration. Then, in the absence of a settled policy, there would always’ exist in some of the States a feeling that an injustice had been done to them. We had an illustration of that feeling a few years ago, when a strong remonstrance was entered by those States which possessed fair supplies of fodder against the proposed suspension of the duty upon that commodity, whilst others were suffering acutely from drought. I would also point out that contracts have already been entered into upon the assumption that we should have a continuity of policy, and that, if the operation of the duty upon fodder be suspended, these contracts will be unduly disturbed. I hope that the Committee will remit the proposed duty. The Treasurer has quoted figures with a view to showing that under Inter-State free-trade we are making the abundance of one State minister to the scarcity of another. If that be so, casual suspension is destructive of the very object of Inter-State free-trade. But it seemed to me that he failed to prove his case by the statistics which he cited. He mentioned that, in 1902-3, 6,065,000 cwt. of hay and chaff were imported into New South Wales. The local production was 4,866,000 cwt., making the supply in that lean year 10,913,000 cwt. In the previous year, which was a much better one, the local production of New South Wales was 9,452,000 cwt., but it and the importation amounted to 1,000,000 cwt. less than in 1902-3. What do those figures show?

Mr Storrer:

– That there was less grass in the later year.

Mr GLYNN:

– Yes; a larger quantity of hay and chaff having to be purchased by some of those hard pressed, to take the place of grass. A true comparison could be made only by showing how the supply of grass was affected in any two periods.

Mr FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

.- In listening to the debate, I have come to several conclusions. In the first place, it is evident that no one could tell the Committee, with the expectation of being believed, that the fact that millions of sheep, and thousands of the cattle, are in danger of perishing, and that the primary industries of New South Wales are engaged’ in a struggle which means life or death, is unimportant. But is it wise to be hysterical on the subject, and to paint the condition of the State in such colours that the representative of another State was led to interject, “ It is on account of the rotten climate “ ? We are trying to induce white people to come to this country; but if some of the speeches which have been made to-day get into the press of the world, persons abroad will regard Australia as a magnificent place to keep away from. One of our newspapers, which is very Australian in spirit, has gone so far as to brand certain persons who have besmudged the Commonwealth as the “stinkingfish “ party. I do not say that there are any members of that party in the Committee, but I deprecate hysteria in this matter. Would it not be better to calmly face the facts? Western Australia is sending chaff to the eastern States; South Australia has had a good rainfall, and has plenty of grass ; Tasmania has plenty of grass, and a large part of the continent is in splendid condition. But many of the speeches which have been made this afternoon might lead persons to believe that Australia is an abominable place. It is because of similar speeches in the past that the tide of immigration has flowed so strongly to Canada, although no member of Parliament, notwithstanding that the country, for several months of the year, is covered with ice and snow, so that stock have to be fed, thinks of drawing attention to the circumstance.I consider that those who have been fighting for the suspension of the proposed duty have wasted time. I belong to a party which stands for Australia first and always.

Mr Reid:

– Never for Foster?

Mr FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I am for fostering the native industries of Australia all the time. Honorable members have spoken of the fodder which, if it were not for the duty, would come from New Zealand to save our starving stock. But, on the 25th of this month, in Wellington, prime oaten sheaf chaff was selling at £6 5s. a ton, and could be bought in Melbourne for £6 a ton, while prime chaff was selling at

Mr Fairbairn:

– Everything is high in New Zealand because of the price of labour.

Mr FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– Does the honorable member wish us to believe that, if the farmers of New Zealand had an immense surplus of. chaff to sell, they would be getting these high prices? The high price of labour in New Zealand has enabled them to get better prices, but not famine prices. There would be something in the contention of those who ask for the suspension of the proposed duty, if we could get large supplies of cheap produce from New Zealand ; but under present circumstances there is not much justification for it. Still, I should be willing to empower the Government to remit this and other duties if exorbitant prices were being charged by those whom they protected. I have no sympathy with those who charge the Australian public too much. I believe in protection because, by increasing production and creating competition, it tends to reduce prices.

Mr McWilliams:

– The honorable member cannot produce rain.

Mr FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I am not like the hon orable member for Franklin, who voted for a duty of£1 a ton on potatoes and now asks for the suspension of the duty on chaff. If he were sincere, he would have taken similar action in regard to the potato duty, because he knows that potatoes are a good food for starving stock.

Mr McWilliams:

– Potatoes have been as low as £1 a ton this year.

Mr Watkins:

– At the present time they are fetching a big price in New South Wales.

Mr FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– The profits of the farmers at the. present time have been referred to as blood money; but it often happens that farm produce is unsaleable, and if, when they demand high prices because supplies are scarce, they are to be charged with exacting blood money, I ask what is to be said of the conduct of manufacturers and importers in increasing their prices ?

Mr McWilliams:

– I was not speaking for myself.

Mr FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– Although honorable membershave spoken of the high prices of produce now reigning, and of them being due to the existence of a ring, they have not done anything to prevent the formation of such rings. . During the last drought a ring increased prices, and honorable members who were in Parliament at the time knew that that was so, yet, when the party to which, I belong has tried to deal with rings and trusts, by nationalization if necessary, they have opposed it.

Mr Reid:

– They have never opposed action for the prevention of rings and trusts.

Mr FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– When sellers form a ring to rob the people, it is our duty to pass measures to put an end to the existence of such monopolies. I shall vote for the proposed duty because, in my opinion, it will not. affect prices. It will operate to the advantage of our farmers only when prices are very low, and I object to its suspension for a long period. I would, however, urge the Ministry to suspend the duty if prices were unduly raised, and I hope that later on, when we are considering measures for the new protection, or other means for preventing extortion, honorable members will assist us to make such legislation effective.

Mr SINCLAIR:
Moreton

– I hope that the Committee will suspend this duty; and since it has not been sought by the farmers, and is unlikely at any time to benefit them, I think ‘we should be wise in remitting it.

Mr Watkins:

– Does not that argument apply to maize?

Mr SINCLAIR:

– Not to the same extent.

Mr Watkins:

-Because it is grown in Queensland ?

Mr SINCLAIR:

– In good seasons we produce in Queensland enough fodder to supply the wants of the whole Commonwealth, and are sometimes glad to obtain £1 a ton for it. When we have a good season the duty is inoperative. The honorable member for New England has referred to the existence of a ring. During the drought of 1901-2-3 I had the painful experience of seeing the incomes of the dairymen in the Moreton district dwindle away from £20,000 per month to the vanishing point, whilst during the same time their outlay on fodder amounted to something like £20,000 or £30,000 per month. We obtained a considerable proportion of our fodder from Victoria and South Australia, and although in. the first-named State it was selling at £6 per ton, the stock-owners of Queensland, owing to the action of the shipowners, who favoured the produce merchants, were unable to obtain it at less than £14 a ton. The result was that we had to draw largely upon supplies obtained from the Argentine and other countries. The honorable member for South Sydney and the Minister of Trade and Customs drew a harrowing picture of the loss of millions of sheep in New South Wales in 1897, when there was no duty on fodder. Do they wish to add to the enormous losses of the stock-owners by taxing them to the extent of £1 per tonin respect of all the fodder they import?

Mr FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– How can we tax them when there is no fodder coming in? The price of fodder in New Zealand is dearer than it is here, and there has also been a drought in the Argentine.

Mr SINCLAIR:

– There are other countries from which it can be obtained. If, under the new protection proposals, the honorable member can devise a scheme which will enable the farmers in, say, Queensland to obtain fodder from South Australia during a drought without being at the mercy of a ring of shippers or produce dealers, than I shall be prepared to listen to him.

Mr FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– Will the honorable member help us?

Mr SINCLAIR:

– Everything will depend upon the nature of the proposal that is submitted. I hope that the Committee, in its wisdom, will determine to suspend this duty.

Mr PAGE:
Maranoa

– I was greatly amused by the statement of the Treasurer, who shed crocodile tears over the unfortunate lot of the pastoralists in the Western. Districts of Queensland and New South Wales. No honorable member is more familiar than he is with the difficulties by which farmers and pastoralists are assailed ; but it appears that because he has “ soured “ against the settlers in the country, he wishes to penalize the country which has penalized him. Every sheep in the Commonwealth is a national asset, since it creates work for many people. Those who have been engaged in the pastoral industry alone know the value of each of our sheep to Australia. During the existence of the last drought the Commonwealth Government, instead of coming to the assistance of the principal primary producer in Australia, slapped heavyduties upon his fodder. My experience during the drought was that the duty of £1 per ton meant that the price of every ton of fodder that I had to buy was increased to that extent.

Mr Atkinson:

– What did the honorable member have to pay for his fodder?

Mr PAGE:

– Up to £12 per ton.

Mr Atkinson:

– The duty becomes inoperative after the price goes beyond a certain stage.

Mr PAGE:

– The duty had to be paid : on every ton of fodder that we imported from the Argentine. I hope that honorable members will endeavour for a moment to place themselves in the position of the men on theland who are struggling to save their flocks and herds, and that they will be prepared to extend to them the same consideration that most of them are always ready to give to the manufacturers in our big cities.

Mr PALMER:
Echuca

.- The honorable member for Angas and a number of other free-traders have declared their intention of voting for the remission of this duty. As a. protectionist, I assert that as long as protection is the settled policy of the country every person in the community should enjoy to the greatest possible extent the advantage of that system. The Government propose to continue the old duty of £1 per ton on hay and chaff, and I am prepared to support that proposition, because it is in accordance with the settled policy of Australia. At the same time, I recognise that there are peculiar circumstances of which we must not lose sight in imposing this duty. It has been proposed by the honorable member for Franklin that the impost shall be suspended for a period of twelve months, but the honorable member for Riverina has urged that a six months suspension would be sufficient. As a matter of fact, it may be found necessary to suspend the duty for two years in order to meet the exigencies of a drought. Our desire is to pass a Tariff that will stand for a number of years, but we must not lose sight of the fact that after the Tariff has been passed we shall not be in the same position as we are to-day to make special provision to meet the exigencies of a drought.

Mr McWilliams:

– We could next year, if necessary, extend the proposed suspension.

Mr PALMER:

– I doubt whether we could do that. The Treasurer, a few moments ago, quoted figures which showed that, even under free-trade in New South Wales, there had been enormous losses of stock owing to drought. That is admitted ; but, nevertheless, it is obviously the duty of Parliament, in a matter of such great national concern, to minimize the loss as much as possible. I shall vote for the duty proposed ; but, at the proper stage, I shall move the addition of the following proviso -

Provided that when the wholesale value rises above £6 per ton at the chief ports of entry of any State, the duty shall be remitted.

Sir William Lyne:

– I knew that I could noi carry the proposed rate.

Mr FULLER:

– This is what the Svdney Morning Herald says about the position of affairs in New South Wales -

The condition of things caused by the want of rain has made it necessary to invoke the aid of the Railway Commissioners once more. We have heard much about the demand for more trucks lately, but in that respect the department appears to be hampered by its limited supplies of rolling stock. There is thus a difficulty in meeting the immediate demand for assistance, at any rate to a satisfactory extent. But in another” direction the Commissioners have shown themselves not unmindful of the requirements of starving stocky and not slow to amend their regulations in special cases. One of these regulations says that the reduced rates fixed for this emergency shall not apply to places within 100 miles of Sydney; and it is obvious at once that there are excellent grounds for that limitation. In ordinary circumstances, when the country is visited by drought, the parts within that radius of Sydney have no reason to ask for special concessions. This is especially the case on the South Coast, which has been in the habit of getting a very fair supply of rainfall. But just now and for some time past this rule does not apply. The drought is exceptionally severe there, arid we had a pitiful tale to report the other day about the straits to which the Dapto dairy farmers were reduced.

Dapto is on the south coast, about 60 miles from Sydney.

The cost of hand-feeding is so high that they find it less costly to let their stock perish, hoping to buy more when the season changes and the rain comes. It looks like a cold-blooded calculation, but we are bound to believe that such a resolution would not be come to except under pressure of the direst necessity.

– When the drought has broken up and. the farmer has been freed from the anxiety which it entails, he will probably have time to glance at the records of the House, and will be very much surprised to find how many friends he has in it. He will also be astonished to learn how many of his so-called friends in this Chamber have any knowledge of the actual conditions under which he labours. If we could only send some honorable members to the drought-stricken areas in order that they might obtain a little practical experience of the disadvantages under which the man on the land is labouring, the probabilities are that the farmers would have a few more real friends in this Parliament than they have at present. Unfortunately, we are subject to periodic visitations of drought, and we can only hope that human ingenuity and intelligence will enable us to some extent to counteract their effect. Progress is already being made in that direction, but we cannot expect to accomplish everything in a day. The farmers are learning by bitter experience the conditions which they must be prepared to meet from time to time ; a very large expenditure of capital and labour is necessary to enable them to successfully cope with them. We have in this connexion a national problem to face. Until the States Governments provide large national reservoirs on the tablelands, the man way-back will be able to do little to minimize the effects of a drought. During this debate we have heard some honorable members inquire why the farmer has not resorted to irrigation in order to secure ample supplies of fodder. But those who talk in that way do not realize that during a long drought, such as we experienced in 1902-3, and such as we seem to again have immediately before us, the water necessary for irrigation purposes is not available. Our natural sources of supply are dried up, and it will be necessary for the States Governments to take steps for the conservation of water in good seasons in order that the severity of the effects of a drought may be minimized. Such an undertaking would be so gigantic that no individual could think of entering upon it. It is a task which the States Governments must take up, and I am glad to say that they are beginning to see that water conservation is just as much a national work as is the construction of a railway. The Government of New South Wales, in the construction of the Barren Jack reservoir, have launched a large water conservation scheme, which involves great engineering skill and the employment of a vast amount of labour. I refer to that fact only as indicating the difficulties with which the farmers have to contend, and in support of my contention that’ those who object to the remission of this duty on the plea that the farmers and graziers should provide themselves with supplies to carry them over a drought need some little practical experience. The effects of a drought visitation are intensified by the rabbit and grasshopper pests. Unfortunately, the rabbit pest is ever present. It is with us in good seasons and in bad. But the grasshopper pest, by which we are assailed from time to time, has again assumed serious proportions in New South Wales. Although by the exercise of forethought and the expenditure of a large sum of money a farmer may think that he has made sure of a certain return from his land, even in good seasons he is brought face to face with a pest which often deprives him very largely, if not completely, of the whole results of his work. Yet in face of all the disadvantages under which the men on the land labour, some honorable members tell us that the losses of stock which they are now suffering are due to their indifference and. failure to secure themselves against the ravages of drought. The Government practically say to the man on the soil,. “ We ask you to grant protection by way of high duties to the manufacturers in the cities, and we compensate you by placing high duties on the fodder which in dry seasons you have to import.” In this item we have an excellent advertisement of the benefits which protection confers on the farmer ! We might as well impose a duty on wool or minerals as on fodder or any other agricultural . produce. Such a duty never operates except in times of drought and shortage, when it is necessary to call for outside supplies in order to make up the local deficiency ; and it means artificial and increased prices. So far from being of benefit to the farmer, dairyman, and small agriculturist generally, it is a detriment; and the only advantage gained is in the shape of increased revenue by already wealthy States. So far as we can judge, there is bound to be a shortage in grass and fodder, unless we are favoured with an abnormally wet summer. The Treasurer has been very liberal in quoting figures showing the large decrease of stock in New South Wales prior to the imposition of a Tariff ; but the honorable gentleman did not tell us that that decrease was brought about by the rabbits, which practically -drove the stock from the western district, and which are now operating in the central district where, fifteen years ago, its presence in Australia was not regarded as of much consequence. A further reason for the decrease is the discovery by stock-owners that it is not a good principle to overstock - that wealth is not to be computed by number but by quality. There has been a large expenditure in the direction of perfecting the sheep and dairy and other herds, and the animals, though smaller in number, are of considerably tetter quality. It would not pay, therefore, to permit them to perish in a drought season. Perfection has been gained only after long and expensive experiment ; and if losses are occasioned by drought, they cannot be replaced as previously by merely breeding up numbers. Sir George Turner, when Treasurer, stated in his Budget speech, after the imposition of the former Tariff, that the whole of the financial arrangements with the States for 1902-3 had, to a certain extent, been upset, because of the large amount of revenue received in consequence of the fodder duties. In a list which is published in Hansard, Vol. XV., page 2621, Sir George Turner showed that the increases under this head were, in New South Wales, £272,409; in Victoria, £148,884; in Queensland, £68,530; in South Australia, £5,584 ; in Western Australia, £17,164; and in Tasmania,’ £6,575. From these figures it will be seen that the fodder duties operated not only in New South Wales and Victoria, but over the whole of the Commonwealth, owing to the importations that were then found necessary because of the drought. There is no reason,, unfortunately, to suppose that such a duty will never operate again; the probability is that it will operate, and very speedily. In order to show that this is a revenue duty, I. have only to refer honorable members to the- Budget

Papers laid before us by the Treasurer himself when he made his Budget statement for the current year. I there find figures showing that the revenue derived from the grain and fodder duties in 1902-3 for the whole of the Commonwealth totalled £597,719; and in 1903-4 it was £265,219. Then, with the recurrence of good seasons in 1904-5, the revenue sunk to £29,000, while in 1905-6 it was £31,000, and in 1906-7 £22,000. Under normal conditions, the Treasurer expects to receive something like £20,000 from this source; and such a reduction, as compared with the receipts for 1902-3, shows the character of this taxation. If I cannot appeal to the Treasurer, who is so thoroughly imbued with protectionist principles that apparently he is prepared to ride them to death, I may, I think, appeal to some of my brother Labour representatives who are protectionists, but who, I hope, will regard this question from a sensible point of view. Is it reasonable that the whole of the community, and particularly the toiling small farmer and dairyman, or the man with only his horse and cart, should bear this heavy impost under exceptionally trying conditions? In good seasons, possibly, these men would not mind bearing an additional charge, if the duty then operated, but, as I have already . shown, that is just the time when the duty does not operate. It is flying in the face of facts to contend that the duty does not operate in time of drought, and that it is not a charge which falls very heavily on people who are ill-prepared to bear it.

Mr FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– Where is imported fodder to come from ?

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– That is a matter for consideration ; at any rate, this duty will operate as against importations. I remind the honorable member that a serious proposal was made to the State Government of New South Wales, by those who call themselves Socialists, that, under severe conditions such as prevailed in 1902-3, it is the duty of the Government to import fodder for the purpose of helping people who cannot help themselves.

Mr FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– There is no fodder to-be imported.

Mr THOMAS BROWN:
CALARE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– The honorable member may know more of the matter, than do a number of us ; but I think it will be discovered that there are sources of supply : otherwise it will be unfortunate foi Australia. The Treasurer claimed that prices are not being affected by present conditions ; butI have here an extract from the Sydney Daily Telegraph, which shows that in 1904, after the break-up of the big drought, chaff was selling in Sydney, on the 29th October, at £3 15s. ; on the same date a year later, at £3 6s. 8d. ; on the same date a year later still, at£3 16s. 8d. ; while last Tuesday the price in the same market was from£6 to £6 10s., and even as high as £7 a ton. There is no doubt that that rise is owing to the present scarcity, and to the anticipation of still greater scarcity, large stocks being bought up and held inreserve.I hope the Committee will remove this duty, which only operates when taxation is not justifiable. If the. Committee do not see theirway to remove the duty, I hope they will insert a proviso, such as that which the Treasurer has indicated was in operation in Western Australia, providing for the suspension of the Tariff on certain items under exceptional circumstances. I do not think, however, that if it be decided to provide for a remission of the duty, it should be remitted at the caprice of a Minister, but that it should be done by a resolution of Parliament.

Question- That the words “until the 31st October, 1908 “ (Mr. McWilliams amendment) be added to Mr. Thomas

Brown’s amendment - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 23

NOES: 25

Majority … … 2

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

.- If the honorable member for Calare withdraws his amendment, and the proposal to suspend the operation of the duty for six months be carried, will he be in order in afterwards re-submitting the amendment?

The CHAIRMAN:

– It would not be competent for the honorable member for Calare or for any other honorable member to do what the honorable member suggests. The Committee would have already decided upon a certain course of action.

Sitting suspended from 6.30 to 7.45 $.m.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I should like to know how the item will read if both the amendments before the Chair are carried..

The CHAIRMAN:

– If both amendments are -carried, it will read -

Hay and Chaff, per cwt., is., and on and after 31st October, 1907, free, until ist May, .1908.

AYES: 9

NOES: 33

Majority … … 24

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment of the amendment negatived.

Question - That the words, “ and on and after 31st October, 1907, free “ (Mr. Thomas Brown’s amendment) be added - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 24

NOES: 20

Majority …. … 4

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Amendment agreed to.

Item 69 (Straw) agreed to.

Item 70 (Herbs, dried - -not medicinal) negatived.

Item 71, Honey, Jams, and Jellies; including Calves’ Foot but not Meat Jellies,. per lb., 2d.

Mr WILKS:
Dalley

.- I oppose this duty on general principles, but I think it just as well to give a few details in justification of my opposition. The duty has been increased beyond the recommendation of11/2d. per1b. by the protectionist section of the Tariff Commission, and is1/2d. more than the duty imposed under the Tariff of 1902. In 1906, the cash value of the importations of jams and jellies was £8,270 odd, of which £8,125 represented the importations from the United Kingdom Right through this debate we have paid much attention to the products of the Old Country, and it has been urged that it is the foreigner whom we are to tax. It appears from the figures, however, that we have little to fear from the foreigner, so far as jams and jellies are concerned ; and, in my opinion, no matter what duty we impose, practically the same quantity will be imported from the United. Kingdom, because the importations consist of special brands, for which a certain section of the public are always prepared to pay the higher price. We are told by experts that jams consist of 50 per cent. of sugar; and jam manufacturers may, therefore, complain that they have to pay’ an Excise duty of 3s. per cwt. My own opinion is that a duty of 1d. per lb. is quite sufficient, but I am content to revert to the old duty of11/2d. I should like to hear some reason from the Treasurer why it is proposed to increase the duty on jams and jellies by 331/3 per cent., considering that, according to the information we have received, sugar has decreased in price. So far as honey is concerned, I - regard the duty as a sham one. Honey is largely exported from Australia, and I suppose that in no past of the world is a larger quantity produced. The imports of honey during 1906 amounted to only £27 in value, whereas the value of the exports amounted to over £1,000. I move -

That the words “ and on and after 1st November, 1907, per lb.,11/2d.,” be added.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– I hope honorable members will not discuss this item atany length.

Mr Wilks:

– Why not accept my amendment?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– I cannot be expected to accept every amendment.

Mr Reid:

– Leave the duty at 2d., but impose a preferential duty of11/2d in favour of Great Britain.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– The importations under this head amounted to 381,747 lbs. last year. I can understand the Opposition desiring that there should be no duty, but even in taking a train journey one can see that the industry of bee-keeping is extending in all directions, and that it is carried on mainly by poor people, for whom we ought to have some consideration. However, this is really a small matter, and, in order to save time, I am prepared to agree to the suggestion made by the leader of the Opposition, and accept a proposal for a preferential duty of11/2d. per lb. in favour of the Old Country.

Mr Wilks:

– I am prepared to agree to that compromise.

Amendment (by Mr: Wilks) agreed to -

That the words “ and on and after1st November, 1907 (United Kingdom), per lb.,11/2d.,” be added.

Item 72. Hops, per lb., 6d.

Mr STORRER:
Bass

– I ask the Government to consent to this duty being increased. It is only right that the duty on hops should be made higher, seeing that the duties on other commodities have been increased. The honorable member for Swan and others are always talking about the small importations of certain items, but I see that in 1906 the duty paid on hops was £35,450.

Item agreed to.

Item 73 (Linseed), item 74 (Linseed for the manufacture of oil and cake under Departmental by-laws), item 75 (Linseed Meal),and item 76 (Linseed Cake and Oil Cake) agreed to.

Item 77. Arrowroot,, Macaroni, and Vermicelli, per lb.,1d.

Mr POYNTON:
Grey

– I should like to know why the duty on arrowroot has been increased from1/2d. to1d. Only £19 in duty was collected last year in respect of arrowroot, the total importation being 9,118 lbs., of which3,828 lbs. came from the New Hebrides. I understand that the arrowroot growrnin the French settlements is admitted free to France and other French possessions; whereas the British missionaries are placed at a disadvantage, inasmuch as on the arrowroot they produce they have to pay a duty when it enters the Commonwealth. I understand that the chief missionary work in the New Hebrides is done by the Presbyterian Church, which has spent £100,000 in efforts to civilize and evangelize the natives. The increased duty is felt as a great hardship, particularly in view of the policy of the French authorities in the direction I have already indicated. ,

Sir William Lyne:

– Do not keep us too long over this item.

Mr POYNTON:

– Will the Minister consent to the duty on arrowroot being made1/2d. ?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– The Prime Minister stated the other evening that the whole question of our trade relations with the New Hebrides would be considered in connexion with the proposal to encourage British settlement in those islands. I have no doubt that a preferential arrangement will be arrived at between the Commonwealth and the New Hebrides, and that, if possible, a similar agreement willbe entered into with Canada and New Zealand. But the amount involved in the point raised by the honorable member for Grey is really so small that it is scarcely worth discussing. Rather than waste two or three hours in debating it, I move -

That the following words be added : - “ and on and after 1st November, 1907, arrowroot, per lb.,1/2d.”

Mr SINCLAIR:
Moreton

.- I am rather surprised at the attitude adopted by the Treasurer this evening in view of his action last -night in. holding out so tenaciously for a duty of 2d.per lb. on cornflour. I think that the growers of arrowrootare entitled to some consideration at the hands ofthe Committee.

Mr STORRER:
Bass

.- I am very glad that theTreasurer has consented to reduce the duty upon arrowroot, because that article islargely used in Tasmania, although it isnotgrown there.

Amendment agreed to.

Item, as amended, agreed to.

Item 78. Malt, including granulated, maize, and rice malts androasted, or torrefied barley, per cental, 6s.

Mr FAIRBAIRN:
Fawkner

.- I would point out that the duty upon barley, from which malt is manufactured, has been increased, to 2s. per cental, and therefore it is necessary to increase the duty upon malt to a similar extent if the farmer is to be protected.

Mr FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– What shrinkage is there in malt?

Mr FAIRBAIRN:

– I do not think that there is very much. To make the duty upon malt harmonize with that imposed upon barley, it is necessary to increase the proposed tax upon malt by 6d. per cental. Otherwise, we shall be completely stultifying ourselves.

Mr Frazer:

– Barley is used for purposes other than malting.

Mr FAIRBAIRN:

– It is chiefly used for malting purposes. If the Treasurer desires to protect the farmer, he will move in the direction I have suggested.

Sir William Lyne:

– Will the honorable member be very good, and vote with me hereafter if I do so ?

Mr FAIRBAIRN:

– I cannot give a blind promise of that sort. It was. stated the other evening that the brewers manufactured their own malt. But I find, as the result of inquiry, that there is only one brewer in Victoria, and that there are very few brewers in the other States who are maltsters. The maltster is usually a person. between the farmer who produces the barley and the brewer who uses the malt.

– At the present rate of importation the higher duties will mean increased taxation to the amount of £80,000 per annum.

Mr HANS IRVINE:
GRAMPIANS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910

– The working man will have to pay most of that.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– He will feel it especially. We are asked to tax the community to this amount to support an industry which has not asked for additional protection, although the Tariff Commission advertised that it was ready to hear the complaints of all manufacturers who did not think themselves justly treated under the old Tariff. I move -

That after the figures “1s.9d.” in paragraph

A, the words “and on and after1st November, 1907 (General Tariff), per gross, 9d.,” . be inserted.

– I have already said that I have increased it because of the recommendation of the protectionist section of the Tariff Commission.

Mr PAGE:

– Every one uses matches, and I fail to understand why a duty should be imposed upon them. I have here a statement of the case which should prove of interest to honorable members -

Vestas are sold in the following three styles of boxes : -

Round plaid, containing an average of 45 vestas.

Royal (flat box), containing an average of 85 vestas.

No. 4 (oval tin box), containing an average of . 145 vestas.

Royal (flat box), 6s. 6d. per gross.

No. 4 (oval tin box), 10s. per gross.

Of the above lines only the round plaids are manufactured by the local factory.

That is a point which I desire to emphasize. Matches used in Queensland and in the western districts of New South Wales are not manufactured within the Commonwealth -

The consumption runs almost entirely on the round plaid, save in the case of Queensland, where a fair proportion of the oval tin box is used-, owing to its. beinga safeguard to the contents against the moisture of the climate.

The consumption of the Royal (flat box) is nominal.

The late duty of 6d. per gross was equal to a protection of , seemingly, 25 per cent. to the local factory, but was in reality fully double that amount, owing to the way in which it was levied on the number of vestas.

The new duty is equal to a protection of, seemingly, 75 per cent. to 871/2 per cent. oil United Kingdomand foreign respectively, but in reality fully double that amount, owing to. the way in which it is levied on the number of vestas’.

In other words, there are not so many vestas in a locally-produced box as there are inan imported box-

The foregoing is exclusive of the natural pro- tection in transit charges, which amount to about another 15 per cent.

– I know the gentleman; he goes to church three times every Sunday. The letter continues-

As the duty is levied on the basis of 100 vestas to the box, . and the round plaid boxes contain only 45 vestas, the duty, whatever fixed, is actually more than double the protection to the local manufacturers which it appears to be.

It may be said - why not import larger boxes to hold just under 100 vestas, and so pay duty on full limit allowed, instead “of less than half? This has been attempted, but without success, as it is a clumsy package, and disapproved by consumers.

The price of the locallymade round plaid article was 2s. 2d. per gross prior to about the middle of last year, before the local factory, by some arrangement come to with London, advanced, their price 6d. per gross, such advance being the amount of the import duty then in. operation.

It will likely be contended, and with some show of justification, in extenuation of an advance in price by the local manufacturers, that there has been an increase in the cost of production, owing to the increased cost of raw materials. The increase, however, is at most about 5 per cent., or equal to about1d. per gross, as against the advance in sale price above-mentioned of 6d. per gross, and pertains equally to the imported as well as the locallymade article.

The. annual output of the local factory is about£30,000 on late quotations, out of a consumption of. about£160,000 for the Commonwealth, or under 20 per cent.

How does the manager of the local factory explain the fact that under a practically prohibitive duty it has producedonly 20 per cent. of the matches used in the Commonwealth ?

Though the Tariff Board took no evidence on? this line at its sittings, the members of it are reported to have made recommendations. On what premises?

The wax vesta is a very valuable article to the Australian community,far more so than the safety match, as it is always at hand for, ignition without other paraphernalia, its great merit being’ its “ strike anywhere “ value.

I know what “phossy jaw” means. As a boy I lived close to’ Messrs. Bryant and May’s match factory in London, and I then saw sights which I do not wish to see in the fair country of Australia.

Better far for Australians to leave the manufacturing of this very useful and necessary little article to the over-populated centres of London and the Continent, than to tax the poorer classes here, who are far and away the largest consumers of it, to the extent of somewhere approximating £83,000 annually (which it will amount to under the new duties), to foster an industry ( ?) which is a menace to the health of its operatives and the wage earnings from which do not amount to more than£3,000, or thereabouts, per annum (vide evidence of manager of local factory before Victorian Tariff Commission, 1895, pages 341 to 343, of Second Report of Board).

The profits made by the local factory must amount to over£10,000 per annum since the late rise in prices, to which, later, if the increased duties become effective, and the price accordingly increased, a further£13,750 per annum, or thereabouts, is likely to be derived, or at least£23,750, which will go to, and be spent in, London.

– I do not know the difference between a “ fat “ importer and a “fat” manufacturer; and I do not think the Treasurer could tell the difference if he saw the two walking up Bourke-street together.I do not see why a man, because he is an importer, should be regarded as an utter vagabond. I am with the honorable member for North Sydney in regarding the proposed duty as the most iniquitous tax that could possibly be imposed on the masses. I cannot for the life of me understand a Labour representative being induced to vote for an increased duty on matches.

Mr WILKS:
Dalley

.- The honorable member for Maranoa has put the case very clearly against the proposed duty ; and I ask the treasurer whether he, even as a protectionist, can assert that this is a desirable industry to encourage in Australia? There are, however, other grounds on which I may appeal to honorable members. We have heard a great deal in the courser of the Tariff discussions about combines and’ the match industry is in the peculiar position of being a combine which is in operation not only outside Australia, but inside Australia. Messrs. Bell and Company, of London, conductthe only local match factory in Victoria, and that firm is in combination with Messrs. Bryant and May, notonly for the production of matches in Great Britain, but also on the

Continent of Europe. Here is strong evidence that the public of Australia have to pay according to the duty. If a duty of 1s.9d. be imposed, imported matches will be1s.9d. per gross dearer; while the same manufacturers will be able to sell the locally produced article at1d. per gross cheaper, so that the Australian people will have to bear a burden equal to1s. 8d. per gross.

It will be remembered that when safety matches were made free of duty, the tax was left on wax matches, neither for revenue nor protective purposes., but to discourage their use, as it was considered that in this country they werea source of danger.

It will be seen that the duty was proposed, not to protect the industry, but to discourage the use of wax matches in Victoria. But fashion has overridden legislation; and. notwithstanding any danger which may attach to their use, the public insist on being supplied with wax matches. The report from which I have quoted says further -

The result of the duty has been to encourage the establishment of a local factory. A well- known firm of British makers has found it more profitable to manufacture in the Colony than to pay the Victorian duty. The tax has, therefore, had a wholly unlooked-for effect. It must, however, be stated that, apart from the establishment of this factory, the tax has failed as a prohibitory measure, wax vestas being so generally in demand that large quantities were imported notwithstanding the heavy duty.

Again, let me emphasize that these are not statements of importers, but of fullblooded protectionists on the loyal soil of Victoria. Again -

Taking all the circumstances of this industry into consideration, we do not think it is of sufficient value to the country to warrant the large loss of revenue which will follow its development; but we cannot overlook the fact that the duty has remained on vestas for a long period, and that directly it is proposed to take advantage of the protection afforded an outcry is raised for its repeal.

Mr GLYNN:
Angas

.- When the first Federal Tariff was under consideration in 1901 I moved that the proposed duty on matches of1s. per gross of boxes be reduced, and intimated that I intended to propose an Excise duty of 3d. per gross.

The Committee reduced the duty to 6d. per gross, and the proposition that an Excise duty be imposed was lost by only five votes. Those facts constitute a fairly strong case against the impositionof the increased duty. In order that there might be no misapprehension, between the date on which I moved that the import duty be reduced and that on which I moved for the imposition of an Excise duty, I saw some of the representatives of Bell and Company, and endeavoured to put a view of their case before the Committee. Had the Excise duty of 3d. per gross been imposed the protection would have been reduced to only 3d. per gross. In these circumstances I do not think that the offer of the Treasurer is good enough for the free-trade section of the Committee. It has been mentioned by the honorable member for Batman that a good deal of sweating takes place in connexion with this industry in other countries. It is a curious fact, however, that in 1900, under the Victorian duty of 1s. per gross, the wage paid in the local factory was 18s. 8d. to the male employes, and 14s. 11d.- to the female employe’s, or an average of about 16s. per week, whereas the honorable member for Batman tells us that under the lower Federal duty the female employes are receiving 16s. per week, whilst the male employes receive 33sor 34s. per week. If labour has been protected under the reduced duty imposed by us, surely it will be hereafter protected in the same way by a duty of 6d. per gross. Evidence given before the Victorian Tariff Commission in 1895, by, if I remember rightly, a representative of the local factory, was to the effect that a very slight addition to the plant, and the employment of thirty or forty additional hands, would enable it to supply the whole of the requirements of Australia. If that be so, I fail to see that the imposition of the increased duty proposed by the Government would give much more employment in Australia. The evidence was that at a total wages cost of less than £3,000 per annum the whole of the demand for matches in Australia could be met. In 1901 only about ninety-three hands, of whom sixtysix were women and twenty-seven men, were employed in the Victorian factory. If we prohibit imports we shall not help to abolish sweating in the industry in the Old Country. As a matter of fact, the sweating which takes place there is not a bit worse than was the sweating in the industry here in 1901. I trust that in the circumstances the Minister will have a little more consideration for the revenue, which would be affected by the imposition of a lower duty.

Mr POYNTON:
Grey

.- If there is one item in the Tariff that is more absurd than another it is this. There is no evidence to support it, and no attempt has been made by the Minister to justify it. For the sake of this industry, which at the best is a bad one, giving employment to only a limited number of hands, at an average wage of about 14s. 3d. per week, we are asked to impose a duty equivalent to11/2d. per dozen boxes of matches. - Last year, there was paid by way of duty on safety matches £18,000, or £41,000 on the combined imports of wax and safety matches. It may be argued by some honorable members that the local industry has tended to reduce prices. I have quotations showing, however, that from the outset the price of the local matches has been just below the margin of the duty. An increased price, therefore, has been clearly paid by the users. If I had my way, I should make the manufacture of matches a prison industry. It seems absurd to tax the whole of the community to the extent proposed by the Government in order to encourage an industry which is chiefly carried on by girls, and which must ultimately have a detrimental effect on the health of those engaged in it. I should certainly be prepared to prohibit the introduction of wax matches into Australia, since they are highly dangerous ; I could point to cases where lives have been lost as the result of the striking of a wax match. The old duty afforded substantial protection to the industry. The report of the Chief Inspector of Factories of Victoria deals with the number of hands engaged in the Richmond factory, where match-making, as well as the manufacture of fire-kindlers, is carried on. It is difficult to ascertain the number of hands actually employed in each branch, but I find that in the combined industries there were, on the male side, two employes receiving a wage of11s. 3d. per week, seven employed at 7s. 8d. per week, five at 8s.1d., one at 17s., three at 15s. 8d., one at 16s.,one at 20s., and seventeen at 35s.5d., or a total of thirty-seven. The female employes are as follow : - One at 7s. per week, eleven at 7s.10d., thirty at 10s. 7d., twenty-three at 12s. 3d., twentysix at. 13s. 4d., twelve at 13s., twelve at 13s.10d., and twenty-three at 16s.11d. ; or a total of 138. I am anxious to know what the Treasurer’s proposal is. We have been told that he refuses to agree to any duty less than1s. and9d., and also that he is willing to agree to duties of 9d. and 6d. Which is correct?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– I thought that the arrangement was quite understood. The offer that was made, and agreed to, was that under paragraph a, the duty should be1s. and 6d. ; under paragraph b, 2s. and1s., which is in the same proportion as under paragraph a.

Mr Tudor:

– That is leaving the Tariff exactly as it was.

Sir William Lyne:

– Yes. Then under paragraph c it was agreed that the duties should be1s. and 6d., paragraph d remaining as printed.

Mr Wynne:

– Is the same proportion observed all through?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– Yes.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– I am prepared to accept the suggested arrangement.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendments (by Sir William Lyne) agreed to.

That after the figures “1s.9d.,” paragraph A, the words “ and on and after 1st November, 1907 (General Tariff), per gross,1s.,” be inserted; and that after the figures “1s. 6d.” the words “ and on and after 1st November,1907 (United Kingdom), per gross, 6d.,” be inserted.

That after the figures “3s. 6d.,” paragraph B, the words “ and on and after 1st November, 1907 (General Tariff), per gross, 2s.,” be inserted ; and that after the figure “ 3s.” the words “ and on and after 1st November, 1907 (United Kingdom), per gross,1s.,” be inserted.

That after the figures “1s. 9d.,” paragraph C, the words “ and on and after 1st November, 1907 (General Tariff), per gross,1s.,” be inserted; and that after the figures “1s. 6d.” the words “ and on and after 1st November, 1907 (United Kingdom), per gross, 6d.,” be inserted.

Item, as amended, agreed to.

Item Sr. Meats. Poultry. and Game. viz. : -

Mr.JOSEPH COOK (Parramatta) [10.22]. - Here we have a series of small advances over and above the recommendations of the Tariff Commission.

Sir William Lyne:

– I do not think that we ought to import any meat or poultry.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The quantity that is imported is not worth considering. I do not think that we ought to go beyond the old duty, which, after full investigation, was recommended by both sections of the Tariff Commission; and, therefore, I move -

That after the figure “2d.,” paragraph A, the words “and on and after 1st November, 1907, 1d.,” be inserted.

Amendment negatived.

Amendment (by Mr. Joseph Cook proposed -

That after the figure “ 2d.,” paragraph A, the words “and on and after 1st November, 1907 (United Kingdom), per lb.,1d.,” be inserted.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– Only £8 was paid in duty on this commodity last year; and I think the Treasurer might very well accept the amendment.

Amendment negatived.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I move -

That after the words “ 25 per cent.,” paragraph B, the words “ and on and after 1st November, 1907, 20 per cent.,” be inserted.

This is an item, small as it may appear, that is very important in the back blocks of Australia, where people are unable to obtain fresh meat, and have to resort to the potted varieties.

Mr Wilson:

– These potted or concentrated meats are very largely made in Australia.

Sir William Lyne:

– And exported, too.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

-They are made so largely that both sections of the Tariff Commission recommended no increase in the duty. I appeal to honorable members, for once, to adopt a unanimous recommendation of the Commission. Will the Treasurer give us any reason why the duty has been increased ?

Mr LIDDELL:
Hunter

.- There is a very small importation of these commodities, a certain class of which - invalid foods - we do not produce in Australia.

Question - That after the words “25 per cent.,” paragraph b, the following words be inserted: - “and on and after 1st November, 1907, 20 per cent.” - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 19

NOES: 24

Majority … … 11

Majority … … 5

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Amendment (by Mr. Joseph Cook) put -

That after the words “ 25 per cent,” paragraph B, the following words be inserted : - “ and on and after 1st November, 1907 (United Kingdom), 20 percent.”

The Committee divided -

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Amendment (by ‘ Mr. Joseph Cook) negatived -

That the following words be inserted after the figures “11/2d.,” paragraph d : - “ and on and after1st November, 1907, 20 per cent.”

Mr TILLEY BROWN:
INDI, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC

– I regard paragraph e, Meats, n.e.i., as simply an inducement for Customs officers to tax the public at their discretion. This “n.e.i.” business is something like a policeman taking a man into Court ; the chances are that he will get convicted whether he deserves it or not.

Mr.JOSEPH COOK (Parramatta) [10.46]. - I trust that the Government will agree to put the duty with regard to paragraph f, Meats preserved by cold process, back tothe old rate. I understand that it includes the hams which are imported at Christmas-time, and the duty therefore -means a ‘fax on our’ Christmas food.

Mr Salmon:

– I am very loth to again address the Committee on this item. But in view of the amount of indignation which the honorable member for Corangamite has pumped up, some statement is due from me. The honorable member for Balaclava stated that during the summer it was the custom of persons engaged in this industry to import from New Zealand a certain quantity of legs of pork which had been treated by the cold process for the purpose of turning them into hams for the Christmas trade. I said that if pork legs were imported here during the summer they could not be turned into, hams for the Christmas trade, except by what is known as the quick process, which consists of pumping pyrogallic acid into them. If the honorable member for Corangamite chooses to say that that is an aspersion on the local manufacturers of hams he is welcome to do so. Every other member of the Committee will agree that I did not cast any aspersion upon those engaged in this industry. If,however, the manufacturers- of baconandhams wish to be allowed to importpork free of duty, I say that theyare not entitled to a high duty on the finished product, seeing that they are careless of the interests of those engaged in producing the raw material in Australia.

Mr FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

.- I wish to challenge the assertion of the honorable member for Corangamite that pig-raising cannot be profitably carried on unless the pigs are fed on milk.

Mr Wilson:

– I did not say that the industry could not’ be carried on, but that it could not be carried on profitably.

Mr FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

– I do not wish the honorable member to mislead the Committee. Thousands of pigs are reared on the northern Dividing Range in New South Wales, and driven down to the maize fields to be fattened, and they are turned into excellent bacon. Lucerne is also used in vast quantities for pig-raising. This item should be passed in the interests of closer settlement.

Amendment (by Mr. Joseph Cook) negatived -

That after the figure “2d.,” paragraph f, the words “and on and after 1st November, 1907, free,” be added.

– We have the best evidence in the world that we cannot

The imposition of the duty means increasing the cost to the consumers, who comprise the poorer sections in the community. I hope that the Committee will divide at once, and strike out the item.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I desire to ascertain from the Treasurer what he really does propose to do? He made a statement which was as vague and as indefinite as it could possibly be.

Sir William Lyne:

– I was not allowed to complete my statement.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I should be very glad to hear the Treasurer.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

– I was asked to postpone the consideration of about five items, namely, milk, oilmen’s stores, salt, soap, and starch, and, I think, rice.

Mr Atkinson:

– Will the honorable gentleman postpone Item 83?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– No. But I am quite agreeable to postpone the consideration of those items, so that we can deal quickly with the other items in the division, and afterwards consider the postponed items, which might, if proceeded with to-night, provoke much discussion. I desire to meet honorable members opposite as reasonably as I can.

Mr Poynton:

– What is the advantage of postponing those items if we are to sit all night?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– There will be no necessity to sit all night if honorable members will pass the other items without much discussion. Probably they will be passed in the course of a few minutes.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– As the Treasurer has agreed to postpone the consideration of the items - and they are really the debatable items in the division - it occurs to me that we might reasonably pass the other items without undue debate. But I suggest for his consideration that the item of sausage casings is very debatable.

Sir William Lyne:

– No.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I can assure the Minister that half-a-dozen members on this side feel very strongly on the item.

Sir William Lyne:

– It is not debatable. Let us take a division.

Mr GLYNN:
Angas

.- I believe that both sides have come to a fair understanding with a view to facilitate business. I have been furnished with some informa tion with regard to the item of sausage casings. We import these articles from

America, and in return send mutton and lamb casings. In order that a division maybe taken at once, I move -

That the following words be added : - “ and on and after 1st November, 1907, free.”

I am told that a very good reciprocal trade is carried on, and that the demand cannot be locally met.

Mr LIDDELL:
Hunter

.- We should not go to a division without a discussion on the item. It involves a great principle, and that is, whether we can produce the articles. There is evidence that we do not produce the kind of article which it is proposed to tax. We export to Germany the heavier article, which is made from the entrails of sheep. But theclass of casing which the Australian prefers is the lighter pig casing, which is imported from the United States. The imports and exports are fairly evenly balanced. The imports were worth £41,925, and the exports from Australia £42,915, of which £34,728 went to Germany. This duty will penalize the Australian butcher. It was proposed in the Kingston Tariff to impose a duty of 2d.

Mr Watkins:

– We will make it free now if we go to a vote at once.

Mr WILKS:
Dalley

.- The burning protectionists are anxious to admit sausage skins free. According to them, Australia can produce electrical machinery the most complicated in the world, but cannot make an ordinary sausage skin. Throughout the Tariff there are duties up to 40 per cent. on the ordinary commodities of life, but the protectionists make the farcical admission that Australia cannot make sausage skins. 1 can understand the Treasurer, as a protectionist, being annoyed with his friends.

Sir William Lyne:

– The casing is not made. It is taken from the entrails, cured, and sent away, and a manufactured casing containing a good deal of impure matter is brought back.

Mr WILKS:

– The protectionists in this House now admit that Australia cannot undertake the process of curing and preparing the skins. In the last Parliament, Sir John Quick and Sir William McMillan agreed to the article being placed on the free list. During the discussion at that time, I suggested to protectionists a “ sausage rampant,” or a “ sausage in the summer season,” as a coat of arms. I shall vote for placing this item on the free list, but the Treasurer or Minister of Trade and

Customs ought to rise and apply the whip most powerfully to the protectionists, who in this case are going back on their professions.

Colonel FOXTON (Brisbane) [11.36].- If anybody ought to know whether there is an ample supply of pork skins for sausages obtainable in Australia, it is the butchers of the country. I have here a document, signed by thirty butchering firms in Brisbane, who state, as do other butchers in country towns, that the local article is very much inferior to the imported article.

Sir William Lyne:

– That is not true.

Colonel FOXTON. - The butchers ought to know better than the Treasurer does.

Sir William Lyne:

– I know more about the question than the honorable member docs

Colonel FOXTON.- As I am not a butcher, the honorable member probably knows more about it than 1 do, but I am voicing the opinions of men who understand a great deal more about it than the honorable member does. I have evidence that the men who are most interested in producing a palatable article protest most strongly against the proposed duty as tending to prevent them from obtaining the best materials. Those opinions may be no more palatable to the Treasurer than sausages with thick skins are to other people.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Trea, surer · Hume · Protectionist

– The honorable member for Brisbane has challenged my statement. I say that the imported sausage casings are not manufactured from the best material, and are very injurious. Butchers may say what they like, but we export the natural casings which are proper for sausages. We export to the United Kingdom, Canada, Cape Colony, Fiji, Natal, Austria, Belgium, France, Germany, New Zealand, South Sea Islands, Italy, Japan, the Philippine Islands, and the United States, £43,403 worth every year.

Mr Atkinson:

– But those are sheep casings.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– It does not matter whether they are or are not sheep casings. I have had to do practically with the business, and I know exactly what casings they are. One reason for the imposition of this duty is a desire to make people use our own natural casings, and not the imported spurious and injurious stuff. -

Mr WATKINS:
NEWCASTLE, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP; FLP from 1931

.- I regard this as one of the irritating items in the Tariff. In the first place, imported skins can always command upwards of 3d. per lb. more than do the colonial skins, so that there is no competition. What the Treasurer has said about our sending away the natural skin is hardly correct, because what we export is the entrails of the sheep, which the German and other people like for the bigger classes of sausage. The butchers use all the skins that can be produced in Australia, and are glad to get imported skins, even at a cost of 3d. or 4d. per lb. more. This,as I say, is simply an irritating duty, which confers no advantage even on those people who breed pigs in Australia.

Question - That the words “ and on and after 1st November, 1907, free,” be added (Mr. Glynn’s amendment) - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 22

NOES: 19

Majority … … 3

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Amendment agreed to.

Item 84 (Milk) postponed.

Item 85 (Mustard Seed) agreed to.

Item 86. Mustard, including French Mustard, per lb., 3d.

Amendment (by Mr. Joseph Cook) negatived -

That the following words be added: - “ and on and after1st November, 1907, per lb., 2d.”

Item agreed to.

Item 87. Nuts - Edible, viz. : -

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I should like to know why a duty of 4d. per lb. has Been levied upon almond kernels. It seems to me that it is practically a prohibitive impost.

Sir William Lyne:

– The duty proposed accords with the recommendation of the Tariff Commission, whose members in their report made a strong reference to this matter.

Amendment (by Mr. Joseph Cook) negatived -

That after the figure “4d.,” paragraph D, the following words be inserted : - “ and on and after1st November, 1907, per lb., 2d.”

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I should like to know what is meant by the use of the term” meal ‘ ‘ in association with almond paste?

Sir William Lyne:

– It refers to ground meal which is used in the manufacture of cakes.

Item agreed to.

Item 88 (Copra) agreed to.

Item 89 (Oilmen’s Stores) postponed.

Item 90 (Annatto) agreed to.

Item 91. Isinglass -

In. sheets … free
N.E.I. … ad valorem, 15 per cent.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– I suppose that half-a-pint was considered a small quantity, such as wouldprobably be used for purposes other than oilmen’s stores.

Item 94 (Rice), item 95 (Salt and table preparations thereof), and item 96 (Salt, rock) postponed.

Item 97 (Seed, canary, hemp, and rape), item 98 (Seed ; cotton), and item 99 (Seed ; cotton for the manufacture of cake and oil) agreed to.

Item 100 (Soap) postponed.

Item.101 (Spices) and item 102 (Spark lets) agreed to.

Mr Wilks:

– The Treasurer is merely passing dummy items, although he seems to think he is effecting so much.

Item 103 (Starch), and item 104 (Starch flours) postponed.

Item 105 (Tea) -

In packets not exceeding 20 lbs. in weight, per lb.,1d.
N.E.I., free.

Amendment (by . Mr. Poynton) proposed -

That after the figure “1d.,” paragraph a; the words “ and on and after1st November, 1907, free,” be inserted.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.-Ihope that the Minister will not agree to the amendment. The packet tea comes chiefly from India, where it is put up by cheap labour, in packets manufactured by and covered with labels printed by cheap labour. If we deal in this way with packet tea, it will be necessary, to be consistent, to deal similarly with other items.

Mr HUTCHISON:
Hindmarsh

– I should like to see the importation of packet tea prohibited. Surely we can put up into packets the tea that we require. But little supervision can be exercised over tea imported in packets, whereas tea imported in bulk can be easily examined. Prior to Federation tea which was allowed to enter the free ports of New South Wales was not permitted to enter South Australian ports, being considered unfit for human consumption.

Mr Fisher:

– The importation of such tea is prevented by the Commonwealth Customs Act.

Mr HUTCHISON:

-When the amendment is disposed of, I intend to move to prohibit the importation of packet tea.

The CHAIRMAN:

– If the amendment be carried the honorable member will not be able to do that.

Mr LIDDELL:
Hunter

.- The honorable member for Hindmarsh contends that packet tea should be prohibited from coming here, because it is put up by coloured labour, but to be consistent he should refuse to drink tea, because it is all the product of coloured labour.

Mr BOWDEN:
Nepean

– Some of the best tea that comes into this market is imported in 10 and 20-lb. packages. I do not think that we should put a duty upon it.

Mr MATHEWS:
Melbourne Ports

– I think that tea should be brought to Australia in bulk, and packed here. It is undoubtedly easier to supervise the importation of bulk than of packet tea, while we have persons who are trained in the art of blending, which needs special professional skill. The duty will not be. a tax on tea, but it will create employment.

Question - That after the figure “1d.,” paragraph a, the words “ and on and after 1st November, 1907, free,” proposed to be inserted be so inserted - put. The Committee divided.

AYES: 10

NOES: 24

Majority … … 14

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the negative.

Amendment negatived.

Mr HUTCHISON:
Hindmarsh

. -I move -

That the following words be inserted after the figure “1d.,” in paragraph a : - “ and on and after 1st November, 1907, tea in packets not exceeding 10lbs., prohibited.”

Honorable members will understand that this is not in any sense a prohibition of the import of tea, but is intended to afford employment to our own people in putting up tea in packets, and in the printing of the wrappers and labels. In addition to giving employment to labour, the effect of the proposal would be to secure a better supervision of the tea consumed in Australia. I chink it is unnecessary that I should say anything further in support of the amendment.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– I should like to know if the honorable member for Hindmarsh is in order in moving this amendment. The original resolution submitted was -

That duties of Customs and Excise be imposed according to the following’ Tariff, to come into operation on the 8th August,1907, at 4 p.m. Victorian time.

– I believe that that statement is perfectly true in respect of many cases, but not in regard to all.

Item agreed to.

Progress reported.

page 5465

EXCISE PROCEDURE BILL

Bill received from Senate and (on motion by Mr. Groom) read a first time.

House adjourned at 12.36 a.m. (Friday).

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 31 October 1907, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1907/19071031_reps_3_41/>.

View PDF View XML View in Voyant

House of Representatives31 October 1907

PETITION

DUTY ON POTATO FLOUR

Mr JOHNSON:LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:Treasurer · HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

BOUNTIES BILL

Mr GROOM:Attorney-General · DARLING DOWNS, QUEENSLAND · Protectionist

Mr Bamford:

Mr GROOM:

QUESTION

MAIL SERVICE TO EUROPE

Mr BOWDEN:NEPEAN, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr DEAKIN:Minister for External Affairs · BALLAARAT, VICTORIA · Protectionist

Mr EDWARDS:OXLEY, QUEENSLAND

Mr DEAKIN:

QUESTION

HIGH COMMISSIONER

Mr SALMON:LAANECOORIE, VICTORIA

Mr DEAKIN:Protectionist

QUESTION

CUP DAY

Mr KING O’MALLEY:DARWIN, TASMANIA

Mr DEAKIN:Protectionist

Mr King O’Malley:

Mr Thomas:

Mr DEAKIN:

QUESTION

IMPERIAL CONFERENCES

Mr CROUCH:CORIO, VICTORIA

Mr DEAKIN:Protectionist

QUESTION

OVERTIME : SYDNEY GENERAL POST OFFICE

Mr JOHNSON:

Mr MAUGER:Postmaster-General · MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA · Protectionist

QUESTION

RABBIT PEST: INTRODUCTION OF DISEASE

Mr CHANTER:RIVERINA, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:Minister for Trade and Customs · EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

SUGAR REBATES

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:Protectionist

QUESTION

TARIFF

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

Mr Fuller:

Mr Reid:

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

Mr Reid:

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

Mr Fuller:

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

Mr Fuller:

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

Mr JOSEPH COOK:PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

Mr JOSEPH COOK:PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

Mr Fuller:

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

Mr JOSEPH COOK:PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

Mr Glynn:

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

Mr FULLER:Illawarra

Mr Watkins:

Mr FULLER:

Mr Storrer:

Mr FULLER:

Mr FULLER:

Mr McDougall:

Mr FULLER:

Sir John Forrest:

Mr FULLER:

Sir John Forrest:

Mr FULLER:

Sir John Forrest:

Mr FULLER:

Mr HUTCHISON:Hindmarsh

Mr JOSEPH COOK:PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr HUTCHISON:

House of Representatives
31 October 1907

Mr JOHNSON:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

Mr GROOM:
Attorney-General · DARLING DOWNS, QUEENSLAND · Protectionist

Mr BOWDEN:
NEPEAN, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr DEAKIN:
Minister for External Affairs · BALLAARAT, VICTORIA · Protectionist

Mr EDWARDS:
OXLEY, QUEENSLAND

Mr SALMON:
LAANECOORIE, VICTORIA

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
DARWIN, TASMANIA

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

Mr CROUCH:
CORIO, VICTORIA

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

Mr MAUGER:
Postmaster-General · MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA · Protectionist

Mr CHANTER:
RIVERINA, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
Minister for Trade and Customs · EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
Protectionist

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr FULLER:
Illawarra

Mr HUTCHISON:
Hindmarsh

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr CHANTER:
Riverina