House of Representatives
8 August 1907

3^rd Parliament · 2^nd Session

PRINTING COMMITTEE
- Pro Chairman
QUESTION
- POST AND TELEGRAPH CONVENIENCES
CONVEYANCE OF MAILS
PAPER
QUESTION
- FIELD ARTILLERY RANGES
QUESTION
- SALVATION ARMY SETTLEMENTS
QUESTION
- PRINTING OF ELECTORAL ROLLS
QUESTION
- NEW HEBRIDES
UNDESIRABLE ALIENS: PROSECUTIONS
FIRE INSURANCE BILL
- Second Reading
PUBLIC SERVICE (APPEALS) BILL
ELECTORAL (DISPUTED RETURNS) BILL
FIRE INSURANCE BILL
- Second Reading
QUARANTINE BILL
ESTIMATES OF . REVENUE AND EXPENDITURE AND NEW WORKS AND BUILDINGS
- Referred to Committee of Supply
BUDGET
- Customs and Excise Tariffs
- In Committee of Ways and Means:
IMPORT DUTIES
THE CUSTOMS TARIFF
QUESTION
- BUDGET PAPERS
ADJOURNMENT
- Order of Business. - Pulmonary Phthisis - Tariff Information

Mr. Speaker took the chair at 2.30 p.m. and read prayers.

page 1595

PRINTING COMMITTEE

Report (No. 4) presented by Mr. Hutchison, and read by the Clerk, as follows -

The Printing Committee have the honour to report that they have met in Conference with the Printing Committee of the Senate.

The Joint Committee, having considered all the papers and petitions presented to Parliament since the last meeting of the Committee, recommend that the following be printed : - Precis of correspondence between the Commonwealth Government, the late Right Honorable R. J. Seddon, and the Government of the United Kingdom, &c, respecting the navigation laws of the Empire, and the question of coastal trade. (Presented to Senate.)

Exemptions in regard to manufacturers of agricultural implements.(Presented to Senate.) (Signed) J. Hutchison,

Pro Chairman

Committee-room, 8th August, 1907.

Motion (by Mr. Hutchison) agreed to-

That the report be adopted.

page 1595

QUESTION

POST AND TELEGRAPH CONVENIENCES

Mr FRAZER:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

– In the Perth Morning Herald, of the 22nd July last, appeared the following paragraph -

As an outcome of representations made by the Premier to the postal authorities for postal and telegraphic conveniences at the Black Range gold-field, in addition to those for which provision had already been made, the Department consented, without guarantee from the State, to connect Maninga Marley with the Black Range telegraph terminus by telephone. The work was completed yesterday, when the Premier sent a congratulatory message to the people of the district served. Another locality which is to be served is Beria, better known as Lancefield. At this place it has been decided to establish a non-official post-office, to provide money-order facilities, and to construct a telephone line from Laverton.

I wish to know from the PostmasterGeneral if it is not a fact that the facilities mentioned in that paragraph were granted on the direct representation of the honorable member for Coolgardie, supported by the senators for Western Australia?

Mr MAUGER:
Postmaster-General · MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA · Protectionist

– The honorable member was kind enough to ‘tell me that he intended to ask this question, and I am therefore prepared with the following answer -

Application for this line was first made by the Hon. H. Mahon, M.P., and was subsequently supported by Senators de Largie, Henderson, and Lynch, who, with Mr. Mahon, waited upon Mr. Mauger, when Acting PostmasterGeneral, to urge the construction of the line. The report from the Deputy PostmasterGeneral of Western Australia showed that the construction of this line would not be justified without a guarantee, and those interested were so informed. It was subsequently shown, to the satisfaction of Mr. Chapman, that owing to the construction party being in the immediate vicinity attending to the erection of lines to Black Range and Sandstone, and to other reasons, a guarantee could be dispensed with. Instructions were given to provide the line without a guarantee. The establishment of an office at Beria with telephonic communication to Laverton was at the instance of Mr. H. Mahon, M.P., and no guarantee was asked for.

Mr McDONALD:
KENNEDY, QUEENSLAND

– Will the PostmasterGeneral, without requiring a guarantee, grant the same facilities in Queensland as have been granted in Western Australia at the request of the honorable member for Coolgardie?

Mr MAUGER:

– So far as possible. I do not like the guarantee system, and where there is any prospect of a telephone connexion paying, I shall sanction the erection of a line.

page 1595

CONVEYANCE OF MAILS

Mr JOHN THOMSON:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · PROT; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Will the Postmaster-General inform the House whether, as the result of recent negotiations, he is likely to be able to arrange for the conveyance of mails at reduced rates, particularly on short country lines.

Mr MAUGER:
Protectionist

– We are meeting the Railway Commissioners in conference, and I hope that an equitable arrangement will be made.

page 1595

PAPER

Sir WILLIAM LYNE laid upon the table the following paper -

Report of the Royal Commission on secret drugs, cures, and foods.

Ordered to be printed.

page 1595

QUESTION

FIELD ARTILLERY RANGES

Mr KELLY:
WENTWORTH, NEW SOUTH WALES

– It is stated in this morning’s newspapers that the Minister of Defence proposes to place on the Estimates a sum for the purchase of ammunition for field artillery. Will he also provide for an appropriation for the purchase of proper ranges for the field artillery ?

Mr EWING:
Minister for Defence · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

– The provision of ranges forthe field artillery has been under the consideration of the Department for some time past. Inquiries as to the land available have been made in each of the States; but it is found difficult to obtain, at anything like a reasonable cost, the large areas which are necessary.

Mr Kelly:

– Ranges are essential if full use is to be made of the ammunition.

Mr EWING:

– Ranges should be provided; but the prices asked for the necessary land have been such as Parliament would not sanction. The endeavour of the Department is to obtain land which is not fit for anything else. I regard the matter as of great importance, and will not lose sight of it.

page 1596

QUESTION

SALVATION ARMY SETTLEMENTS

Mr BOWDEN:
NEPEAN, NEW SOUTH WALES

– The following cablegram appeared in this morning’s Argus -

A settlement scheme of considerable magnitude has been formulated by the Salvation Army, which has chosen Canada as the field for its colonizing operations.

In pursuance of its project, the “ Army “ will buy ten townships in the province of Ontario, where it is proposed to settle the immigrants from Great Britain. The purchase of the land is conditional upon its approval by a joint commission consisting of representatives of the Salvation Army and the Canadian Government.

I wish to know if the Acting Prime Minister has read that cablegram, and if he will communicate with the Governments of the States, with a view to offering an inducement to the Salvation Army to establish similar settlements in Australia?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

– I have not read the cablegram; but I do not intend to communicate with the Governments of the States with regard to the matter.

page 1596

QUESTION

PRINTING OF ELECTORAL ROLLS

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

asked the Minister representing the Minister of Home Affairs, upon notice -

Referring to the Return of 19th February, 1907, showing the total cost of elections to have been in1901, £56,33111s1d; in1903, £51,414 6s. 7d. ; and in 1906, £46,679 9s. 8d., will the Minister say how much of each total represents the cost of printing rolls?

Mr MAUGER:
Protectionist

– The answer to the honorable member’s question is as follows - 1901. The elections were carried out by the States. The information asked for in respect of same is not in the possession of the Department.

£12,245.
£9,306.

page 1596

QUESTION

NEW HEBRIDES

Mr BOWDEN:
for Mr. Johnson

asked the Acting Minister of External Affairs, upon notice -

With reference to question No. 1, paragraphs (5) and (6), on the notice-paper of Tuesday last, 6th instant, and the replies furnished thereto, respecting the destination and amounts of disbursements in connexion with the £500 voted for the relief of settlers in the New Hebrides -

. Does not Captain Rason furnish the Department with the growers’ receipts or vouchersof payment? If not, how is it possible to trace the destination of the payments in order to secure a proper audit of accounts of expenditure?

Will he request Captain Rason to furnish information as to the names of the growers who have received relief from the fund, and the amount paid to each ?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Protectionist

– The replies to the honorable member’s questions are -

No. The amount paid is the difference between the price paid to the settlers in the islands and the price realized in Sydney, which can be checked with quite sufficient accuracy, having regard to the smallness of the individual amounts affected.
Captain Rason will be asked to supply all the information in his possession.

page 1596

UNDESIRABLE ALIENS: PROSECUTIONS

Motion (by Mr. Frazer) agreed to -

That a return be prepared showing -

How many aliens have escaped from vessels into the Commonwealth since the passage of the Immigration Restriction (Amended) Act 1905 ? 2. (a) In how many cases did prosecutions of those responsible for the escapees follow?

If not in all cases, why?

What is the amount of the fines paid ?

Were the fines refunded in any cases; if so, to whom, and why ?

page 1596

FIRE INSURANCE BILL

Second Reading

Mr FRAZER:
Kalgoorlie

.- I move -

That the Bill be now read a second time.

This Bill was read a first time on the 25th July. In view of the strict scrutiny to which, during the last few months, proposals for Federal legislation have been subjected, I shall begin my remarks by showing that, in my judgment, the Commonwealth Parliament is within its rights in passing a Bill of this description. The power to do so is given to us by the Constitution, section 51 (xiv.), providing that -

The Parliament shall . . . have power to make laws for the peace, order, and good government of the Commonwealth with respect to-

Insurance, other than State insurance; also State insurance extending beyond the limits of the State concerned.

If my memory serves me aright, in 1904 the total receipts of the State Insurance Department amounted to only£1,400, and an increase to£20,000 ‘in three years seems to show that State insurance is becoming immensely popular in New Zealand.

Mr Kelly:

– What is the profit on State insurance?

Mr FRAZER:

– I shall deal with that in a moment. The profit to the State Department is not large, but the profit to the people is considerable. The report proceeds -

Early in1906 the insurance companies abandoned all their “ higher rates,” and from thence forward the rates of premium of the State Fire Insurance Office and the private insurance companies have been alike. I may here say that in my opinion the difference between the rates which now prevail and those which prevailed just prior to the advent of the State Fire Insurance Office represents, say, £200,000 per annum.

This report of the general manager of the Department shows that the profit results to the people of New Zealand, and not to the State office.

Mr Kelly:

– I wish to know the profit to the State office.

Mr FRAZER:

– It does not come quite within my speech to give that information, but the profit is stated to be £699 10s. 4d. The report gives this information -

The revenue account and balance-sheet attached hereto show that after writing off £634 5s., one quarter of the preliminary expenses, there remains a credit to profit and loss account of £699 10s. 4d., and this result in my opinion is as satisfactory as could be expected in the circumstances.

If any difference shall arise in the adjustment of a loss, the amount, if any, to be paid by the company shall, whether the right to recover under the policy be disputed or not, and independently of all other questions, be submitted to the arbitration of some person to be chosen by both parties, or of two indifferent persons, one to be chosen by the party, and the other by the company ; and in case either party shall refuse or neglect to appoint an arbitrator within twenty-eight days after notice, the other party shall appoint both arbitrators ; and in case of the arbitrators differing therein, the amount shall be submitted to the arbitration of an umpire, to be chosen by the arbitrators before they proceed to act ; and the award of the arbitrators or umpire (as the case may be) shall be conclusive evidence of the amount of the loss, and the party insured shall not be entitled to commence or maintain any action at law or suit in equity upon this policy until the amount of the loss shall have been referred and determined as hereinbefore provided, and then only for the amount so awarded.

My legal friend, whom I have already quoted, informs me that in one instance a company actually refused to pay, and declined to assign reasons forits action. I may tell the honorable member for Robert son that they frequently adopt that course. He says -

They went to arbitration, and afterthat expense they still would” not part, and would not give any reason for not doing so. They did not pay, and the assured could not afford to fight, and he never got a bean.

This is not my statement-

Mr Henry Willis:

– But it is that of the honorable member’s friend.

Mr FRAZER:

– It is that of a man who is ten thousand times more competent to speak upon this question than is the honorable member. While my legal friend has expressed these opinions, I wish honorable members to understand that he did not agree entirely with the provisions of the Bill which I introduced into the last Parliament. He further states -

A man should have the right to sue without arbitration, or the company might be given the right to claim arbitration, but if so they should be bound to pay the amount awarded without being allowed to make other defences. A favorite practice by companies is not to pay, not to refuse to pay, and not to give any reasons for not doing so. When this occurs the assured is placed in this position : He reads the numerous and stringent conditions of his policy. He finds after consultation with his lawyer that it would be easier for him to walk a tight rope than to live up to all these conditions. He imagines all sorts of things, from want of authority on the part of the agent of the company.

That brings me to another point, because in Western Australia it has been held that the agent who secured the risk for a particular company was the agent of the assured, and not of the company.

Mr Wynne:

– Then there could not have been a policy issued ?

Mr FRAZER:

– A policy was issued. The result of an action in the Law Courts of Western Australia was that the assured was defeated, and the agent who secured the business for the company was held to be the agent of the assured.

Mr Glynn:

– It was a very hard case, in which I think there was some misrepresentation by the agent.

Mr FRAZER:

– It was a hard case, but it indicates the limits to which these companies will proceed in order to defeat the claim of the assured to the face value of his policy.

Mr Henry Willis:

– Did the fire take place before the policy was issued?

Mr FRAZER:

– I think that the policy was perfectly in order, but the company pleaded that it was not the work of their agent, and that consequently they were not responsible for it. Experience shows that fire insurance companies will take advantage of all the conditions which are indorsed upon the back of their policies. They have done it time and again, and will continue to do it. My legal friend continues -

He has before him the expenses of first arbitration, and secondly a Supreme Court action. He is probably compelled by his lessee to build, whether the company pays or not, and possibly there is a hungry mortgagee looming largely on the horizon with threats. He generally accepts what the company offers or gives.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– Yet the author of that letter is opposed to the honorable member’s Bill?

Mr FRAZER:

– He did not agree with some of the provisions embodied in the Bill which I previously introduced. His chief objection was to a provision which has been eliminated from this measure. He is not opposed to what is known as the value system of policy.

Mr Kelly:

– Is he in favour of that principle ?

Mr FRAZER:

– I am. sure that if he were, the honorable member would not be convinced of its equity. My legal friend is an undoubted authority upon fire insurance matters, and has had a very extensive experience of them. After the companies have resorted to all the measures which I have indicated, they usually fall back upon their right to reconstruct. The provision relating to this, matter reads -

In every case of loss or damage by fire for which the said company shall be liable, the same, on being duly proved, shall either .be paid within sixty days, or the said company shall have the option with all convenient speed, to re-build, repair, or reinstate or replace the property insured, and in the case of buildings, to put them into as good and substantial a condition as they were in at the time such fire happened.

That is the clause under which the greatest hardships are inflicted on the community. The companies have the right to withhold settlements for sixty days. Within that period no claimant can proceed to arbitration or enter upon litigation to enforce his demands. I intend to again put before honorable members a letter which I read when the Bill was last under discussion. I do so, not because it refers to a particular case, or because I have no other evidence of a similar nature, showing the disinclination of the companies to settle, but because the writer has made a clear statement of the facts, in very moderate language. He is a relative of the Chairman of Committees, and is named McDonald. Before introducing my first Bill, I wrote to him, asking for an account of his experience in connexion with the settlement of a claim under a fire insurance policy. His reply was as follows - 950 Bourke-street, Boulder City, 12th July, 1906.

Dear Frazer,

I received our letter, and I see you wish to be reminded of the actual facts regarding the fire which occurred at my place on January 16th, when my home and furniture were totally destroyed. The fire started in my sisterinlaw’s bedroom, through the curtains coming against a lighted candle. My house and my furniture were insured with the Commercial Union Insurance Company for ,£250 and £y$. Of course, after the fire, I made my claim to the insurance company. After waiting about fourteen days the company’s adjuster, Mr. Horner, arrived, and I met him, and he had a builder named Heron with him, and we took measurements of what remained of the house. After about nine days, I received a wire, “ Heron’s price to rebuild £iSo, offer you that amount without prejudice. Horner.”

That is, £70 less than the amount upon which he had been paying premiums -

Well, I tell you, I was surprised, as the place cost me well over ^300 to build. I immediately wrote back, and said that the only offer I could accept was the place rebuilt as it was before, or the full amount of the insurance, £250. Mr.- Bignell, who lives next door to me, told me that the way he heard Heron and Horner speaking he did not think I would get a fair deal. After another week’s delay I was informed that Mr. Horner would be up on the fields again, and would see me himself. I met him, and he had Heron with him again, and he asked me to accept the money, j£i8o, but I told him I did not want any money, I wanted the place rebuilt as it was before. He said that they would start to rebuild right away, but when I told him I wanted to see the architect’s plans of the place he proposed to build, he was taken back. -He thought he was just going to run up any sort of place, but I would not consent to any building going up without an architect and proper plans and specifications. Horner then took me to Mr. Cummings, architect, Lanestreet, Boulder, and instructed him to draw up plans and specifications, and gave him the measurements of the place. Well, the trouble began then. The architect made me get a copy of invoices for nearly every item in the place, such as box framed windows, size and make of doors, stamped metal ceilings, fly screens for windows, and fly doors, and every little item that was outside of Jarrah timber. As the timber and materials were all purchased in the Boulder, I was able to get -them, “although i<P gave me a great amount of trouble. Another week’s delay and the plans and specifications were finished, and, on the whole, it was a fair thing, and about as near as could be expected. But I had to keep getting notes from the timber merchants to make the architect put them in. Another fourteen days’ delay, and Mr. Horner arrived again, and I asked him when they were going to start and build. He said he was not satisfied with the plans, and I asked him what part he was not .satisfied with, as I had got all the proofs his architect wanted. He said he would underline all he took objection to, and would then send the plans back to me. He then offered me £225 in settlement of my claim for £250 for the house, as I had received the £j$ for the furniture. But I told him again that the only offer I could accept was the full amount of the insurance or the place rebuilt. Another week’s delay, and the specifications were sent back to me with all Mr. Horner’s objections underlined in red pencil, and I had to prove every detail. Mr. Horner said . if I could prove his objections he would recommend that my claim should be settled in full. One item in the specifications that he underlined was - stamped metal ceilings at 22s. 6d. per square, and I produced a copy of Wills and Company’s invoice to show I had paid 37s. 6d. and 28s. 5d. per square for all stamped metal used in my place. The studs in my house were only 18 in. apart, and in the new plans they were 2 ft. apart. But the architect told me that there must be a little give and take in these matters. Well, when I satisfied them of all materials they took exception to the way the place was painted, but I had lost patience, I wrote direct to the head manager in Perth, and went and saw the Kalgoorlie manager, and told him that unless I had a speedy settlement I would publish the full details of my case in the press. I also instructed Mr. J. N. Brown, solicitor, to write a letter for an early settlement. I had also engaged an expert builder to go through the plans with me, and he told me that the place could not be built for under £300. Anyhow, I do not know whether it was the solicitor’s letter or my threatening to write to the press, but the company settled up with me in full, after keeping me waiting over sixty days.

– Is to blame.

Mr FRAZER:

– Certainly. In such circumstances, the company ought to bear its share of the responsibility. It should be its duty to provide against .the .taking of exceptional risks or premiums when it does not intend to pay. Sub-clause .2 of clause 5 deals with partial losses. The circular to which I have referred states that the - one rule laid down now is that unless the parties can agree, the damaged properties shall be sold, and the full amount of the insurance paid, less the proceeds of the sale.

That is an absolute mis-statement of fact on the part of those who have issued the circular. I believe I have proved the misstatement by the documentary evidence I have submitted to-day, and also out of the mouths of the same people, per medium of their balance-sheets, in face of the fact that there is, roughly, £2 50,000 of unsettled claims throughout the Commonwealth to-day. We are told that the full amount will be paid less the proceeds of the sale; but I say that no endeavour has been made to do anything of the kind in Australia. The next clause provides against fraud ;’ and I repeat ‘that if the Bill is not sufficiently stringent I shall gladly assist in amending it so as to prevent any frauds on those carrying on fire assurance business. Any one ‘who attempts fraud of the kind will receive no sympathy from me, and I shall, as I say, gladly assist to make the penalty severe enough to deal with any cases which may arise. The next clause provides for the abolition of the arbitration provisions which are in the policies at present, and which, in my, opinion, are unnecessary. I am told by the companies that my suggestion is an extremely novel one in these days ; and I admit that the tendency is ‘in the direction of arbitration. If we could have equitable arbitration, with a Judge or an impartial person as chairman - in the same way as there is in industrial arbitration - well and good. But the companies refuse to allow any chairman to be appointed unless they know him to be in sympathy with their own ideas; and hence the arbitration provisions lead to a waste of time, and are practically useless. The provisions are never resorted to except for the purpose of securing delay. We are told in the circular that, as a matter of fact, arbitration does not occur in one case out of a thousand, and that it is well known that cases where claims are resisted by the company, and are taken into Court, are few and far between.

Mr Glynn:

– In small cases the parties could not afford to arbitrate.

Mr FRAZER:

– They cannot afford to arbitrate even in big cases. Claimants do not resort to arbitration, for the simple reason that the companies insist on having a chairman who is in sympathy with their views, and who ultimately decides the question.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– What the circular means is that a settlement is made in all but one of a thousand cases.

Mr FRAZER:

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

Mr Hutchison:

– Because in New Zealand the houses are wooden ones.

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

– Nobody would ever dream of instituting a comparison between buildings which were constructed of different materials. I atn perfectly satisfied that if this Bill becomes law, the honest insurer will be required to pay more than he ‘pays now to cover the losses caused by dishonest insurers. When the honorable member for Kalgoorlie first brought forward this Bill, he had not the advantage of the criticism which has since been directed to -it. But in the .last Parliament he had that advantage. Yet I note that there are still blots remaining: upon the measure - blots which were pointed out at the time, and which make it absolutely unworkable. For instance, subclause 2 of clause 5 states -

In the event of partial loss covered by apolicy, the insured shall, notwithstanding any stipulations contained in the policy, be entitled to recover from the company compensation equal’ to the amount of the loss sustained, but not exceeding the amount insured by the policy. Such loss shall be ascertained by mutual agreement or by the sale of the salvage, and a deduction of the amount received therefrom from the amount of the policy.

Motion (by Mr. Hughes) agreed to -

That leave be given to bring in a Bill for an Act to amend the Commonwealth Public Service Act 1902.

Bill presented, and read a first time.

page 1612

ELECTORAL (DISPUTED RETURNS) BILL

Motion (by Mr. Chanter) agreed to -

That leave be given to bring in a Bill for an Act to amend the Commonwealth Electoral Acts of 1902 and 1905 as regards the Court of Disputed Returns.

Bill presented, and read a first time.

page 1612

FIRE INSURANCE BILL

Second Reading

Consideration resumed (vide page 161 1).

Mr HUTCHISON:
Hindmarsh

– The honorable member for North Sydney seemed to think that, as relief cannot be given to every one, the honorable member for Kalgoorlie should not try to relieve the hundreds who are suffering injustice at the hands of the fire insurance companies. I take a very different view. If the measure will relieve the cases of hardship which we have had brought’ under our notice this afternoon, its introduction will be absolutely justified. The honorable member for Kalgoorlie made out an excellent case for an alteration of the law relating to fire insurance, and I hope to supplement if with some figures which I wish to place before honorable members. The object of the Bill is, in the first place, to provide that an insurer who suffers the total loss of an insured property shall receive the amount for which he has insured it - a very fair proposition ; and, in the next place, that where only partial damage results from a fire, he shall be paid only the amount at which the damage is estimated. Furthermore, the Bill protects the fire insurance companies from fraud and illegal practices; so that it is fair to both the companies and those who insure with them. In a circular which has been issued by the Fire Underwriters’ Association in regard to the Bill, it is stated that, if the measure were carried, encouragement would be offered to gambling ; but I think honorable members will admit that all fire insurance business is gambling. An aspect of the case which was not dealt with very fully by the honorable member for Kalgoorlie is the injustice done to the public by. the action of the companies in forming themselves into a “ ring.” Some years ago, in South Australia, I insured the premises of the firm with which I was connected with the Liverpool, London, and Globe Insurance Company, and after I had paid premiums for some years, I received ‘a notice increasing the rate to 8s. or 9s. per £100, accompanied by a circular, which read -

The increased premium, . as per the renewal notice attached, is strictly in accordance with the provisions adopted by the fire tariff of all companies. ,

That is quite so, but that is a matter about which the companies have never troubled their heads; they have allowed insurers to believe that if anything happens to an insured building, they will get the amount for which it has been insured. There is an injustice which it is our bounden duty to remove at the earliest moment. The circular also says that it would not be a convenience to the public for the companies to be perpetually revising the amount of the insurance, and endeavouring to adjust it to th* actual value. What trouble would there be in doing that ? If a man is in business it is well known what the usual deduction for depreciation is. It would be just as easy for the insurance companies to fix a fair depreciation on all properties insured as it is for them to fix the rates of premium on the amount insured - rates are most arbitrary. It must be remembered that all the companies met and agreed upon a tariff which applies, not only to one industry or one street, but to all the different streets and conditions in both town and country. If the insurance companies can do that, it would be a simple matter for them, in the case of furniture or other goods not new, to write off 20 per cent, for depreciation, and make a corresponding reduction in the premium paid. The circular goes on to say that the business is a special one, and cannot with advantage to the community be conducted without safeguards. But what safeguard has the insurer at the present time? He has not even the safeguard of the solvency of the insurance company,, but has to take the whole risk, although he is called upon to pay any premium which the company chooses to extort. The circular further says that it is contrary to public policy for ii man to make money out of a fire. If that be so in regard to the insurer, surely it should also apply to the insurance company. The companies ought to be able not only to make a fair profit, but to do well. It is when they become extortionate that it is time for the Government to step in. We are told in the circular that the cost of insurance under the Bill will be increased. But the companies have increased the cost of insurance just as far as their conscience would allow. There is nothing to prevent the companies at the present time going further, except their fear lhat, in view of their enormous profits, which are published, the State would feel bound to step in and see justice done. Although I am not satisfied with the Bill as it stands, I am wholly in agreement with its object, and I shall do whatever I can to pass it into law.

Mr GLYNN:
Angas

– I agree with the honorable member for North Svdney that it is a pity to deal piecemeal with such legislation. I acknowledge that there is a good deal in what has been submitted bv the honorable member for Kalgoorlie. While I am perfectly certain that what he placed before the House were facts, I can not, of course, say that the facts are quite so- significant as they seemed, from the stress he laid on some of them. For instance, we had certain cases mentioned as having come from a lawyer. I do not mind much those cases which come from lawyers. We cannot possibly strike an average of those which are disputed or undisputed when we take cases from the business done by professional men, because, in every instance, they have to do with disputes. Again, I do not mind very much the apparent deductions he drew from the figures in regard to the amount of the losses suffered between certain balance-sheets and the total of the unsettled claims. For instance, the. honorable member for Kalgoorlie mentioned one case in which £160,000 was the total of the claims in the interval between the two balance-sheets, while the actual unsettled claims amounted to something like £60,000. If the balance-sheets are, as in many cases, issued half-yearly, we have a total of over £200,000 of settled and unsettled claims, and if only onefourth of that total are unsettled, it simply means that they are pending inquiry. If the interval between the balance-sheets is only six months, and the total claims ,£200,000, and only a fourth” of these are unsettled, there is no significance to be attached to the figures. We must assume that at least ,£50,000 of the claims will be unsettled for six or seven weeks, seeing that, in case of fire, there must be some scrutiny or ascertainment, through invoices or otherwise, as to the total stock and damage of goods. Even then, we should have to find the proportion of the total claims to the’ total business done, before we could draw anything like a reasonable deduction. Again, I do not pay much attention to the quotation in regard to the profits made by the companies. Some companies carry a large portion of their profits to a reserve fund, which is proper insurance ; other companies do not do so, which is not proper insurance, but, largely, gambling. I shall not say it is purely gambling, though it partakes too much of the character of gambling to make it true insurance. For that reason, when big fires occur in certain parts of the world, a number of companies go to the wall, because they have never based their returns on a true calculus of probabilities in relation to fire. A great many companies were ruined when Chicago was burnt, and the same occurred in connexion with the more recent disaster at San Francisco; but in true insurance, catastrophes of that sort ought not to smash- companies. Some of the States have hesitated to follow the example of New Zealand in establishing a State system of insurance, because it requires a very wide basis of operation to average a true calculus of the probabilities of fire. This seems to have been done fairly well in New Zealand, though not so well as was anticipated. There have been no big fires in that Colony, but the difference between the State premiums, as quoted by the honorable member for Kalgoorlie, and the premiums of ordinary companies, was at the start, as mentioned by the honorable member for Hindmarsh, about 10 per cent., and is too small to suggest the success of the New Zealand system in comparison with private companies. In the case of lives, we can fairly well ascertain the percentage of deaths, even within a year. If we take Bayle’s Table, we can, in the case of one thousand people of the age of twentyeight years, ascertain that about 1 per cent, will die within the year, and even if there is abnormal mortality in relation to that number, it does not go up to more than n or 12 per thousand. With, therefore, the abnormalities of human life so little affecting the rate of premium, we may with absolute certainty predict what the premiums ought to be. There is not required, in the case of lives, an area of operation over a very wide field, but in the case of fire insurance, the circumstances arc? quite different. We cannot, over a period of ten years, or even fifteen years, form a general theory as to the number of fires - the calculations must be more or less haphazard. Under the circumstances, there is a very large element of gambling risk in fire insurance operations that are limited to comparatively small geographical areas, or to areas in which settlement is not very dense. One result of a Bill of this sort, which makes an exception of Australia to the general principle that insurance is a contract of indemnity, may be that some of the larger companies may decline to take the risk of operating in the country where the conditions do not harmonize with their general principles. If that be so, we shall drive away those very companies which, with their wide spheres of operations, can afford to do business at lower rates. I merely throw out the suggestion as a pos.sible development of this Bill. No doubt we are entitled to make the proposed change from a contract of indemnity, which is the basis of insurance, to an Act of Parliament regulating, to a great extent, the future relations of insurer and insured. We are., 1 say, entitled to make the change if it be expedient. Insurance is more or less a monopoly. One of the very reasons I gave - that the sphere of operations prevents a State, if not a large State, from engaging In such an undertaking with the prospect of benefits great enough to justify State interference - shows that, more or less, it must be a monopoly, because it requires a company with considerable operations to do the work. .The better class of companies are those who do not only local business, but also business over a greater part of the British Dominions. But the business is in its nature a monopoly, and, being such, we are entitled to effect a change in the law of” contract if it becomes expedient to do so. I do not approve, of the legislation, which the honorable member desires to place upon our statute-book. To my mind, it is a pity to deal with the question of insurance in a piece-meal fashion, and by a measure which is so open to criticism, as far as it goes. There ought to be a comprehensive Bill introduced relating to insurance. Perhaps, if the subject be well considered, with the staff which the Government have at their disposal, a measure may be submitted which will mitigate, if it does not entirely remove, some of the evils upon which the honorable member for Kalgoorlie dwelt in moving the second reading of this Bill. I acknowledge that cases of great hardship do occur. I have had professional experience of some cases, in which claims were ultimately paid up to many times the amount originally offered to the insured. Of course, it is to the interest of insurance agents, who assess the damage caused by fire, to stand as well as they possibly can with their companies. However honest a man may be - seeing that he is only the assessor for one side in a good many cases - he will, as far as possible, keep down the estimate of damage. As a result, the insured frequently labours under a sense- of injustice when, through lack of capital, he is unable to employ another assessor to counteract the estimate of the companies’ assessor, or to proceed to arbitration where, should he fail to establish his claim, he would be required to pay the whole of the costs. Then there are cases in which insurance companies, not wilfully, but owing to excessive suspicion - that arson might have been committed,, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, harass the assured. Though these cases may not be as numerous, or may not go so far as the honorable member declared, they exist, perhaps, to an extent that would justify some legislative check being imposed upon their operations. By means of combinations the companies also maintain premiums at an unfairly high rate. But against that we must re- collect that fire insurance business is, to a large extent, a gamble, and the premiums must necessarily be high to enable them to survive great losses. The companies receive a tremendous shock when big losses occur, and, consequently, the premiums paid must be high. The premiums, therefore, seem to bear a very large proportion to the capital invested, but, as a matter of fact, in some cases, the invested capital is not the security of the assured. It is the capacity of the shareholders to answer applications for calls. They take the risk, and accept a certain premium. That premium 5s not based upon the true principles of assurance. Consequently, the premiums seem high. We must not attach too much significance to that, but that there have been combinations to maintain premiums at undue rates is well attested by the evidence given by the honorable member for Hindmarsh in connexion with suggested proceedings in the South Australian Parliament. While I do not like to oppose an attempt to accomplish something by means of a Bill introduced by a private member, I’ think that the Government should announce that, within a’ reasonable time, they will bring forward a comprehensive measure dealing with the question of insurance. I do not like to say that the Bill under consideration will fail in its operation, but I fear that it is a dangerous one to pass, at all events, in its present form. Where a total loss occurs, it undoubtedly proposes to substitute an entirely new principle - the gambling principle - for that of indemnity, which is the true principle of insurance. Of course, I exempt marine insurance, because in that case the insurance is effected for the whole value invested. Why ? Because, as a rule, marine insurances are effected for voyages, and a proper estimate of the value of the vessel is obtained before she is insured. The valuation takes place at the beginning of every voyage. But that does not occur in connexion with the insurance of f furni- ture or houses. It would not pay a com: pany if it were obliged to obtain a fresh valuation of every property insured before accepting a renewal premium each year. The payment of a small premium of ios. per £100 would not justify an annual valuation, which might perhaps cost 15s. Under the circumstances, the fire insurance companies, to a large extent, have to rely upon the honesty of the assured, instead of testing his honesty every year by means of a valuation. I am afraid that if the Bill is’ passed in its present form we shall be substituting a new principle - really that of a gamble, represented by the payment of the total value of the policy irrespective of the loss sustained - for the present indemnity contract,’ which to some extent is a security against the commission of arson. If the assured must prove the total loss which he has sustained before he can recover, there is no doubt that that safeguard must diminish the probability of arson being committed. The particular provision in the Bill relating to this matter is subclause 1 of clause 5. But, in sub-clause 2 of the same clause, the honorable member for Kalgoorlie departs from this principle, and falls back upon the old one - the contract for indemnity - by declaring that the company concerned shall be called upon to pay, not the difference between the amount of the insurance and the loss SUStained, or the difference between the amount insured and the salvage, but the difference between the loss at the time of the fire and the loss immediately afterwards. That is the effect of sub-clause 2 of clause 5. In other words, this Bill is inconsistent with itself. The first portion of clause 5 deals with a new principle, and the next, portion abandons it, thus evidencing the necessity for a comprehensive and well-considered measure being presented to the House. Sub-clause 2 of clause 5 states-

In the event, of partial loss covered by a policy, the insured shall, notwithstanding any stipulations contained in the policy, be entitled to recover from the company compensation equal to the amount of the loss sustained but not exceeding the amount insured by the policy.

That is the principle of insurance at the present time. So that this Bill will not improve matters. The law of general averages is not touched by the new definition embodied in the measure. The Bill is chiefly designed to protect insurances upon houses and furniture. But the danger is that sub-clause 2 will be chiefly operative, because the bulk of the losses sustained will be partial losses. Even if one article of furniture only were destroyed by fire, it would represent a partial loss, and the principle of the payment of the total amount would apply. If a joint assurance of furniture and a house were effected - one cannot oblige a fire insurance company to issue separate policies - it might be that if the house were totally destroyed whilst the whole of the furniture was not, the assured, instead of getting the total amount, would get -only the difference between the value of the house and furniture immediately before the fire, and their value immediately afterwards, so that he would be in no better position than he is at present if the Bill became law. The impression which I formed in listening to the honorable member moving the second reading of the Bill was that the measure ought not to be initiated by a private member, but by the Government. For the edification of the House, the sooner the Ministry declare their policy upon the matter the better.

Debate (on motion by Mr. Hume Cook) adjourned.

page 1619

QUARANTINE BILL

In Committee (Considerationresumed from 7th August, vide page 1565) :

Clause 14 -

The Governor-General may exempt, for such time and subject to such conditions as he thinks fit, from all or any of the provisions of this Act-

any ship of war;

any vessels trading exclusively between Australia and New Zealand or Fiji, or other places adjacent to Australia;

any particular vessel or class of vessels ; and,

any persons, animals, plants, or goods.

Mr GLYNN:
Angas

.- In paragraph d of this, clause, it is proposed to give the Governor-General power to exempt from the provisions of the Act any person, animals, plants or goods. Judging from reports which I have seen, this provision is regarded in some of the States as rather dangerous, since it gives the Minister too much discretion. Under it, any animals, plants or goods could be exempted from the operation of the measure. There is no such provision in the South Australian Act, and the regulations passed under that Act fix a specific period of quarantine for each class of animal, so that any one reading the Act and the regulations is completely informed on the subject. I am not willing to submit an amendment; but I ask the Minister to consider the advisability of modifying the clause. If the measure is sensibly administered, there will be no danger, although the South Australian Chief Inspector of Stock speaks of the clause as a very dangerous one.

Mr GROOM:
AttorneyGeneral · Darling Downs · Protectionist

– The power given by the clause will be exercised sparingly, and only on the strongest recommendation from the quarantine authorities. However, since the honorable member has raised the point, I shall consider the matter again.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 15 -

The owner of any Australian vessel going from one State or part of the Commonwealth to another State or part of the Commonwealth, shall, if required by the Minister by order in writing so to do, cause to be carried on the vessel an efficient disinfecting apparatus or appliance approved by him.

Penalty : Fifty pounds.

Amendment (by Mr. Groom) proposed -

That after the word “ Commonwealth,” line 3, the words “ or of any vessel carrying passengers and trading regularly with the Commonwealth “ be inserted.

Mr GLYNN:
Angas

– Inasmuch as this amendment applies to all British and foreign vessels, I think that if it is agreed’ to, the passing of the Bill will have to be delayed until the King’s assent has been obtained. The clause as it stands deals with Australian vessels; but the amendment makes its provisions apply to all oversea vessels, and, if I am not mistaken, legislation of this kind must, under the provisions of the Imperial Merchant Shipping Act of 1894, be reserved for the. King’s assent.

Mr GROOM:
AttorneyGeneral · Darling Downs · Protectionist

– The amendment applies the provisions of the clause to all vessels trading regularly with Australia, requiring them to carry efficient disinfecting apparatus ; but I am inclined to think that the honorable member is in error in believing that the Bill must therefore, if it be carried, be kept back for the King’s assent. We have power to order British vessels into quarantine; but the clause simply requires that if they trade regularly with Australian ports they must carry disinfecting apparatus.

Mr McWilliams:

– Will the clause apply to all sailing vessels?

Mr GROOM:

– If they trade here regularly, and carry passengers.

Mr McWilliams:

– If they trade here regularly and do not carry passengers ?

Mr GROOM:

– Then it will not apply to them.

Mr MAHON:
Coolgardie

.- In my opinion the word ‘ ‘ master ‘ ‘ should be substituted for the word “ owner “ in this clause. It may be difficult to find the owner of a vessel, while it may be necessary to travel half round the planet to serve a notice upon him. The master, however, will be on board, and always accessible. I wish, too, to know why, if the Government consider it necessary, in the interests of health, that vessels trading regularly to Australia shall carry disinfecting apparatus, the provision is made to apply only to such vessels as carry passengers. Surely the health of seamen is equally entitled to consideration? I think that the clause should apply to all vessels.

Mr Groom:

– I shall look into the matter.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 16 -

The owner or master of any Australian vessel or of any vessel going from one port in the Commonwealth to another port in the Commonwealth, shall, when required by a quarantine officer by order in writing so to do, cause his vessel to be fumigated or submitted to any specified process for the destruction of rats, mice, and insects in the presence and to the satisfaction of an officer.

Penalty : Fifty pounds.

Mr KNOX:
Kooyong

.- I atn advised that, if the power given in this clause were exercised by an inexperienced officer, valuable merchandise might be seriously damaged. Certain disinfectants will damage certain cargo, and their use, therefore, may involve shippers in serious loss.. There ought to be some safeguard against this. I do not assume that any official will maliciously try to injure shippers or ship-owners ;. but I suggest that consideration should be given to an amendment which I have been asked to submit, inserting after the word “ Commonwealth,” in line 4, the words “ and not proceeding to a port outside the Commonwealth and in completion of the voyage.” This would narrow the scope of the clause. No doubt the Government should have the fullest powers, to use in times of emergency ; but I suggest that consideration should be given to this proposal for safeguarding shippers and ship-owners from loss by the action of ignorant or over-officious persons.

Mr GROOM:
AttorneyGeneral · Darling Downs · Protectionist

– If the honorable member carefully examines the clause he will recog nise that there is no reason why it should be dreaded. The process of fumigation would be specified, and the owner of the vessel would then see that the work was carried out as directed. I cannot conceive of an officer attempting to fumigate a vessel in such a way as to do damage to its structure or cargo.

Mr Knox:

– As a matter of fact, such a thing has frequently taken place.

Mr GROOM:

– This and the preceding clause were inserted on the recommendation of the Conference, who reported -

The Conference has advised in the proposed Commonwealth Quarantine Bill that it should be made lawful to require vessels trading in Commonwealth waters to be fitted with such disinfecting plant as the Director-General may deem necessary, and as may be prescribed by regulation.

Then we have the statement in regard to this clause that -

It has further advised that the Commonwealth Government should seek powers for subjecting every vessel trading in Commonwealth waters to an approved process for the destruction of vermin at intervals.

– As a matter of fact, a vessel should be fumigated after every trip she makes, when trading from an infected port. A vessel might be perfectly clean when she reaches one port and yet be practically overrun with rats when she arrives at the next. I hope that this power will be retained, for, as I understand it, under the proposal made by the honorable member for Kooyong, a vessel could not be fumigated when empty.

Mr FOSTER:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES · ALP

.- I trust that full power to order the fumigation of a vessel will be given the Federal authority, but I must admit that there is a. good deal of force in the contention that during the process cargo might be seriously damaged. I hope that great attention will be paid to cargoes, especially those from China and Japan. A few days ago I read of an incident in connexion with the fumigation of a cargo which had arrived in the United States from Japan; and it emphasizes the contention that a cargo may be damaged in the operation. In fact, when the work of fumigation was going on, the cargo commenced to sneeze, and, on a search being made, it was found that the “ merchandise “ consisted of Japanese women. The discovery of such a cargo would be one good result of fumigation.

Mr KNOX:
Kooyong

– I have no intention to restrict the power of the Commonwealth under this clause; the object I had in view is secured by the Ministerial undertaking that the authority will be exercised with caution. Care is absolutely necessary, because there have been actual instances of officers exercising the power vested in them to the great disadvantage of ship-owners and shippers. In the case of butter, for instance, if any taint be imparted to it the consignment might as well be thrown overboard at once. I quite agree that the Commonwealth should have full power to take every necessary precaution when there is an outbreak of disease. I urge the Minister to reconsider this provision with a view to seeing whether greater precautions cannot be taken against the injudicious exercise of the power given.

Mr MALONEY:
Melbourne

.- I do not believe in any power of the Commonwealth being curtailed in this connexion, and I am supported in that view by the incident related by the honorable member for New England. In Hongkong no fewer than 1,100 dead bodies are found every year .in the streets, and in at least 200 of these cases, the cause of death .is plague, yellow fever, or small-pox. It will be seen, therefore, that the chance of contagion is very great, and I indorse the view that ships, especially those from the East, should be thoroughly fumigated, and the strictest vigilance exercised in regard to them. I shall vote against any amendment which has a tendency to lessen the power of the Federal Government.

Clause agreed to..

Clauses 17 to 19 agreed to.

Clause 20 -

The master of an oversea vessel arriving in Australia shall not, unless from stress of weather or other reasonable cause, suffer the vessel toenter any port other than a port declared to be a first port of entry.

Penalty : Five hundred pounds.

Mr KNOX:
Kooyong

The master of every vessel shall (unless the vessel is actually performing quarantine under the supervision of a quarantine officer) forthwith, after becoming aware that any disease has broken out on his vessel which he believes or suspects or has reason to believe or suspect to be a quarantinable disease -

notify a quarantine officer of the breaking out of the disease, and

hoist the quarantine signal at the maintop of his vessel, and keep it so hoisted until he is authorized by a quarantine officer to take it down or until the vessel is released from quarantine.

Penalty : Fifty pounds.

Amendment (by Mr. Groom) proposed -

That all the words from “The master” to “ quarantinable disease,” inclusive, lines1 to 7, be left out with a view to insert in lieu thereof the following words : - “ When the master of any vessel becomes aware that - “(a) any eruptive disease; or “ (i) any fever disease attended with glan dular swellings ; or ” (c) any disease which he believes or suspects, or has reason to believe or suspect, to be a quarantinable disease - has broken out on board his vessel, he shall forthwith (unless the vessel is actually performing quarantine under the supervision of a quarantine officer) - “

The master of every vessel shall (unless thevessel is actually performing quarantine under the supervision of a quarantine officer) forthwith, after becoming aware that any disease has. broken out on his vessel which he believes or suspects, or has reason to believe or suspect, tobe a quarantinable disease -

notify a quarantine officer of the breaking out of the disease, and

hoist the quarantine signal at the maintop of his vessel, and keep it so hoisted until he is authorized by a quarantine officer to take it down or until the vessel is released from quarantine.

Honorable members will see that under paragraph (b) which I understand has been incorporated in the amendment, the master of a vessel who discovers that any disease has broken out on board is required to hoist the quarantine signal at the main-top of his vessel. I do think that intricacies of this sort might with advantage be left to the executive authority. Why should we insert in the Bill a provision that in a particular part of a ship’s rigging a signal should be hoisted?

Amendment (by Mr. Wilson) proposed -

That the amendment be amended by leaving out of paragraph (4) the word “fever,” with a view to insert after the word “ with “ the words. “ fever and.”

Mr KELLY:
Wentworth

.- The difficulty which I see in the amendment is that glandular swellings, unless they are febrile, would not be regarded as sufficient evidence upon which to quarantine a ship. Of course, simple-minded members like myself cannot be expected to understand a proposal of this character without being afforded an opportunity of studying it in print. When I. have a Bill before me, I make it a practice to carefully study every provision in it, so that I know exactly where I stand. But when an amendment like this is suddenly placed before honorable members, those whose intellects, like my own, work slowly, are placed at a great disadvantage. I suggest that in future the Attorney-General should take care that every new clause which he proposes to incorporate in a Bill shall be printed and circulated amongst honorable members.

Sitting suspended from 6.30 to 7.45p.m.

Mr KELLY:
Wentworth

.- I rise to offer my opposition to the proposal of the Government, because, with the exception of the Minister and the honorable member for Corangamite, no one knows what it is, and, as I, like other honorable members, must take my share of responsibility for every provision that is agreed to with my consent, I must know what is proposed before I can support it. In my opinion, we might well postpone the fur then consideration of the clause until the serious business of the evening - which I take to be the introduction of the Tariff - is concluded. This is not a party measure, and we ought to be most careful that nothing is done in regard to it which may risk the health of the people of Australia.

Mr Tudor:

– The honorable member does not know what the proposal of the Government is, and yet he opposes it.

Mr KELLY:

– As a conscientious representative of the electors of Wentworth, I must oppose a proposal which is unknown to all but the Minister and the honorable member for Corangamite, to whom, I understand, it has been submitted under the bond of professional secrecy. The Minister suggests that the amendment of the honorable member for Corangamite should first be dealt with ; but I am filled with suspicion of these medical gentlemen who are in the confidence of the Government, and therefore am indisposed to accept the offer.

Progress reported.

page 1625

ESTIMATES OF . REVENUE AND EXPENDITURE AND NEW WORKS AND BUILDINGS

Mr. SPEAKER reported the receipt of messages from His Excellency the GovernorGeneral, transmitting Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure, and Estimates of Expenditure for Additions, New Works, Buildings, &c, for the year ending 30th June, 1908, and recommending appropriations accordingly.

Referred to Committee of Supply

page 1625

BUDGET

Customs and Excise Tariffs

In Committee of Ways and Means:

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– I propose to make a few remarks in reference to a matter which has been hinted at by honorable members, and that is the interchange between

Tasmania and Australia. On page 21 of the Budget Papers will be found a statement showing the amount of these debits and credits. The States from, which the goods are transferred are shown as debtors, and the States to which the goods are sent as creditors. It will be seen that New South Wales and Victoria are still maintaining the lead as distributing States. In 1906-7 the net debit to New South Wales was £150,214, and to Victoria £424,827, as compared with £133,396 to New South Wales and £366,411 to Victoria in 1905-6. Honorable members will see what a great distributing State Victoria continues to be. I have no doubt that a great deal of that distribution takes place to Tasmania, and perhaps to Western Australia. Queensland was credited in 1906-7 with £247,319, as . against £214,358 in 1905-6. Western Australia, although suffering from a certain amount of depression, as shown by the smaller revenue collected, is increasing her purchases from other States, being credited with £161,922 in 1906-7, as compared with £135,917 in 1905- 6. Tasmania also purchases more largely, being credited with £127,677 in 1906- 7, as against £112,592 in 1905-6. Honorable members will find on page 21 of the Budget papers an account of the Inter-State Customs and. Excise Adjustment. An attempt is now being made to arrange an average or total sum to be paid to the State of Tasmania to prevent the necessity for the continuance of Inter-State certificates. Communications have been entered into, and are now proceeding, with New South Wales and Victoria to this end. The Federal Government cannot agree to the proposals of Tasmania, or. anything approaching them, without the consent of the two States - New South Wales and Victoria. I took the opportunity while I was at the head of the Customs Department to communicate, through the Prime Minister, with those two States, in order to try to get them to agree to some adjustment of the kind. I may add that in my opinion they may fairly be liberal. I hope they will be as liberal as they possibly can be, as it will be shown that Tasmania is losing something this year on account of these adjustments. The following table shows the debits and credits to each State during several years -

Before leaving the subject of revenue, I submit the following table showing the Customs and Post Office revenue received in each State during 1906-1907, and the. revenue estimated to be receivedin 1907-1908 -

Some further details concerning the Post Office revenue are set forth in another table- Another interesting table which I would draw attention to shows the receipts per head of population under Customs and Excise - I will next deal with the estimated expenditure .for 1907-8. The following table shows the estimated expenditure as compared with that estimated last year - Honorable members will not be surprised to learn that a considerable amount has been provided for the current year. The total expenditure last year amounted to £4,987,30.1, whereas the estimated expenditure for the current year is £5,967,992, showing an increase of £980,691. I will enumerate the principal items of increase, and then make some remarks concerning them. The increase on account of sugar bounty amounts to £244,407 ; other bounties, £25,000. On account of the transcontinental railway route survey, I have put down £15,000, as I do not think it is possible for the full amount of ,£20,000 to be spent during the year. Increases on account of votes are as follow : - Meteorological branch, £15,996; works and buildings - maintenance - £33,509 ; quarantine, £8,500. {: .speaker-F4R} ##### Mr Watson: -- That is very low. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- The reason why I have put down that sum, on the recommendation of my officers, is because it is not estimated that' more than that amount will be required this year. But it is desirable to point out that the whole of that amount, or nearly the whole of it, is merely expenditure transferred from the States to the Commonwealth. It is not an increase in the true sense of the term. We are taking over quarantine, and we have to provide for expenditure on account of it, but the States will be relieved to that extent. Other increases are - in the Customs Department, £17,449; in the Defence Department, £89,514. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr Mcwilliams: -- Is that the increase? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- Yes; I will show the reason for it presently. The increase on account of the Post and Telegraph Department amounts to ,£181,891. The increase for additions, new works, and buildings, including special defence provision, amounts 'to £347,093. {: .speaker-F4R} ##### Mr Watson: -- Does that include the naval proposals of the Government? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- Yes. I have already dealt with the subject of the sugar bounty. In regard to the bounties included in the Bill being considered by Parliament, it is estimated that about ,£25,000 will be spent during the current year. My officers have furnished me with that estimate. Next year probably the full amount contained in the schedule approved by Parliament will be expended. I wish to add in connexion with the sugar bounty - and the ex-Treasurer will know very well what I am referring to - that the States get back three-fourths of the excise received by the Commonwealth Government on account of sugar. That, I admit, is a point which had escaped me before I came to look into the subject in preparing theBudget. The Federal Government has topay the whole of the bounty, but the States receive back three-fourths of the excisecollected by us. {: .speaker-F4R} ##### Mr Watson: -- I pointed that out a couple of years ago. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- It has been pointed out a hundred times that the fact to which theMinister refers embarrasses our finances. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- It does very much. I have included ,£1 5,000 for thesurvey of the transcontinental railway route. It is possible that the whole amount voted by Parliament will be spent during; the current financial year, but I think it probable that it will be found impracticable to finish the survey during the ensuing twelve months. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- It is impossible todo it. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- I think so. I believe that I have made a fairly liberal' estimate on that account. The amount of £15,996 is provided for the newMeteorological Branch. The undertaking; of that work by the Commonwealth is alsoa relief to the States. It transfers expenditure from them, and involves additional expenditure by the CommonwealthBy separating the meteorological work from the work proper to astronomical observatories, and by making it a special branch of study, it is hoped that research will be carried out in a much more effective manner, and that in the end practical1 results of great importance will accrue.. It is also considered that it will be an> advantage to the States Government Astronomers to be able now to concentrate their energies on their own special workAs the expense of the various meteorological stations was previously borne by theStates, there is really .no new expenditure involved, the. burden being merely shifted from the States to the Commonwealth. With regard to works and buildings, the increase of £33,509, under that heading is spread over all the States. I will not take up the time of the Committee by enumerating the amounts. Provision has beén made for sanitary work in Sydney demanded by the Board of Health on account of the plague. In consequence of the erection of a number of new' post-office buildings and telephone exchanges, and the establishment of the meteorological bureau, a considerable amount - say, £8,500 - has been provided; . for fittings and furniture. Provision for new boilers for naval boats, and for repairs, has been made, amounting to£5,000. Many urgent services, authorized during the last financial ' year, were not carried out, and provision has been made in this . year's Estimates for carrying out works authorized in the previous year amounting altogether to £60,847. These are all set out in the column of the Estimates headed " Revotes." The sum of £8,500 has been provided for the expenses of quarantine. This is not a new expenditure; it simply represents a transfer from the States to the Commonwealth. With regard to the increases in the Customs expenditure, amounting to £1 7,449, an extra sum of £5,640 has been provided to reimburse the States the cost of carrying out the provisions of the Commerce Act. Last year only £6,282 was expended, but as that was in respect of a period of only nine months, a sum of £11,922 in all has been provided under this heading for the present financial year. I should like to explain that this arrangement will give relief to the States. We have taken over the States officers engaged in carrying out this work, and have become responsible for the payment of their salaries, so that we are thus taking a burden from the States and placing it upon our own shoulders. The advantages which are accruing from the Commerce Act are so great that I am sure there will be no disposition on the part of honorable members to object to this expenditure. It has been found necessary to strengthen the Customs Department in New South Wales, the additional expenditure, inclusive of contingencies, being a little over £5,000. The remaining increases, amounting to £4,000, will be found distributed amongst the branches of the Department in the various States. I have already said that the increase in the cost of the Defence Department, as compared with the actual expenditure last year, will be £89,514. But if honorable members will refer to page 74 of the Estimates they will see that, comparing the Estimates of 1906-7 with those of the current year, the addition to the cost of the Department will be only £24,000, which is accounted for by increased expenditure in respect of rifle clubs and cadets. I should like to impress upon honorable members the point that the total increase will come under those two headings. The increased provision for cadets includes £12,402 for additional *personnel;* £4,898 for camps of instruction, and £2,000 for rifle meetings. The increase in the vote for rifle clubs includes the sum of £1,000 granted to the council of the Commonwealth Rifle Association to meet expenditure in connexion with the visit of a rifle team from Great Britain. I am sure that honorable members will not object to that expenditure. Honorable Members. - Hear, hear ! {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- A proportion of that grant will be distributed among each of the States to be visited by the team. The increase in the vote relates also to increased railway fares and ammunition and increased grants to the Rifle Associations. I am happy to state that the membership of rifle clubs increased by 5,817 during the last financial year. The number of Australians serving under the Naval Agreement is 651, including 128 men from New Zealand. These are serving in the *Challenger,* the *Pioneer,* the *Psyche,* and the *Pyramus.* Forty-one of them, consisting of thirty-one Australians and ten New Zealanders, have been sent to England to undergo a twoyears' course of training, in order to qualify for higher ratings. Upon their return, "they will be given petty officer ratings on the ships of the Australian Squadron. In the Australian branch of the Royal Naval Reserve 310 Australians and 67 New Zealanders are enrolled. Honorable members will probably be surprised at the large increase in expenditure in the Postal Department. It must be remembered, however, that this is not a stationary Department. It is a progressive and growing service. The revenue of the Department has increased from £2,372,000 in 1901-2 to £3,129,000 in 1906-7. Notwithstanding a prospective loss of £117,000 owing to the introduction of penny postage, it is estimated that for the current year the revenue will be £3,190,000. {: .speaker-F4R} ##### Mr Watson: -- We have not yet decided to suffer a loss by the introduction of penny postage. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- That is so. {: .speaker-JX7} ##### Mr Austin Chapman: -- It would not be: a loss. We should simply refuse to take the sum mentioned out of the pockets of the people. {: #subdebate-15-1-s1 .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLAM LYNE:
Treasurer · HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist -- I hope that my, honorable colleague will restrain himself. If the Parliament is to provide for the growing demands of the public for telephonic and telegraphic conveniences in connexion with the great expanse of trade that is taking place, then a considerable increase of expenditure is inevitable. That this increase in expenditure is not peculiar to the Commonwealth may be seen by comparing the present expenditure of the States with that of six years ago. I would direct special attention to the fact that the total expenditure of the States, including interest on loans, was increased by about £4,250,000 during the period 1899-1900 to 1905-6, which is the last year in respect of which audited figures are available. Carping critics who declare that our expenditure is increasing very rapidly, will recognise from these figures that there is really no substantial foundation for complaint. We have taken over so many services previously carried out by the States, that our expenditure has necessarily increased. The States, on the other hand are, so to speak, selfcontained, and have not had to embark upon such new expenditure as has been unavoidable in connection with the establishment of the Commonwealth. As regards the mail contract, I merely wish to state that the Government regrets the long delay which has' taken place. Although it was felt that it would be greatly to the advantage of the Commonwealth if the arrangement entered into with **Sir James** Laing and Sons were carried out, we could not but recognise that more than ample time had been given to the contractors to carry out their part of the undertaking. When the Prime Minister and I were in London, we came to the conclusion that the contract should either be carried out or cancelled. Instructions have been given that every step that can be taken legally to enforce the payment of the bond of £25,000 shall be taken'. {: .speaker-L1N} ##### Mr Wilson: -- Has the honorable gentleman included that £25,000 in his Estimates of revenue for the current financial year? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- I have not, but T believe that the money will be obtained. I think it possible that there is another item in respect of which a claim may be made. I am not sure on the point, because I could not obtain definite information with regard to it this afternoon, but the Minister of Trade and Customs may be able to . enlighten me on the subject. In my opinion we should insist upon the contractors meet ing every liability that they have incurred in connexion with the contract. Honorable Members. - Hear, hear ! {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- Tenders have been invited for a new mail contract, and care has been taken that no delay shall occur in the execution of the contract without the imposition of a heavy penalty. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- Which can be recovered, I hope. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- We will see about that when we enter into a new contract. There is no doubt that past experience will make the Government very careful in connexion with another contract; and I am sure honorable members will admit that the object of the Prime Minister and the Postmaster-General, in entering into the previous contract, was to save money for the Commonwealth, and get a more extensive service than we have at the present time. Correspondence is in progress with the States Governments on the subject of cold storage. Quick passages, which are essential to the interests of the mercantile community, will be insisted upon. In order to cope with the largely increased business, especially in the telephone branch of the Postal Department, it has been found necessary to considerably augment the staff. I own that. I was astonished at the large amount provided for in the draft Estimates first submitted to me; but I am glad to say that in pursuance of my instructions to the Department, they have been materially cut down. The total expenditure provided for is £2,805,277 for the post-office alone, as against £2,646,201 provided and ,£2,623,386 expended last year, the increase in the estimate for 1907-8, and the expenditure for 1906-7, being £181,891. In New South Wales there is an increase under the head of " General Contingencies " of £20,000, this being for the purchase of 1,000 water-proof capes, extra travelling expenses, sorting English and foreign mails on the trains between Sydney and Melbourne, conversion of nonofficial post-offices, purchase pf motor vehicles, and so forth. In Victoria there is a similar increase of £32,926, this being for telephone maintenance work, larger payments to the Railway Department, new regulation in respect to Sunday pay, a higher rate for bicycle contract, higher price of coal and firewood, opening new offices, &c In Queensland in contingencies, there is an increase of £10,629, being a general increase in telephone maintenance works and business generally ; and in South Australia there is an increase, in contingencies, of £7,903 for purchase of motor vehicles and increased business generally. Under the Estimates for Tasmania, an item of £8,781 appears as the amount payable under the guarantee to the Eastern Extension Australasia and China Telegraph. Company. I may explain that in order to promote telegraphic communication between Tasmania and the mainland, the ½d. rate charged for the transmission of telegrams across the Straits, was abolished on the 1 st October, 1906. Under an agreement between Tasmania and the Telegraph Company, the latter was guaranteed a revenue from message receipts - namely, for payment for transmission across the Straits - of £5,600 per annum. Up to the time when the rate was abolished, the revenue received by the Company had been in excess of the amount of the guarantee. In consequence of the abolition of the charge, it is now necessary to pay the Company the full amount of £5,600 per annum. Including arrears, the sum of £8,781 appears on the Estimates for the purpose. That the abolition of the cable rate of½d. per word has had the effect of largely, increasing the telegraph business between Tasmania and the mainland, is evidenced by the fact that during the six months ended 30th September, 1906,. the sum of £9,236 was received for messages, exclusive of cable charges, whilst for the six months ended31st March, 1907, £11,933 was received, showing an increase of receipts of £2,797 in the half-year. Although the increase was partly due, perhaps, to increased prosperity, much of it was doubtless owing to the reduction in the rate. {: .speaker-F4R} ##### Mr Watson: -- There is always an increase in the summer time, in any case. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- There is no doubt about that. {: .speaker-F4R} ##### Mr Watson: -- I think the person originally responsible for that statement should have remembered that there is always an increase in the summer. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- I may also draw attention to the item of £1,000 included under " New Works and Buildings " for the survey of a cable route between Tasmania and the mainland. {: .speaker-F4R} ##### Mr Watson: -- Is that cable going to Twofold Bay? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- I do not think so. It is intended, should Parliament approve, that the Commonwealth shall in the future have a cable of its own, so that no difficulty can arise in consequence of the cable being owned bya private company. Before leaving the subject of Postal expenditure, I desire to draw attention, to the figures in the following table, which sets forth the receipts and expenditure in the Postmaster-General's Department - In explanation of the large increase asked for under " New Works and Buildings," I would remind the Committee that since the establishment of Federation, the Commonwealth Parliament has resolutely set its face against loan expenditure, thus neces- sitating the expenditure of considerable sums out of revenue, which would otherwise be charged to loans. Of course, that is a state of things, I think, which will not continue indefinitely, as, in the event of the Commonwealth undertaking extensive defence works, and works such as the transcontinental railway, it will be found absolutely necessary to have recourse to loan expenditure. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- I hope defence works will always be paid for out of revenue. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- I do not think that is possible. I am speaking from a practical stand-point, and I hope honorable members will not think that I desire to see this expenditure out of loans. But I know from past experience that defence works sometimes entail very heavy expenditure. {: .speaker-F4R} ##### Mr Watson: -- The Minister ought to wait until war occurs before he talks about loan expenditure. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- We wish to have insurance against war. {: .speaker-F4R} ##### Mr Watson: -- And we can provide that insurance out of revenue. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- Honorable members, I am sure, will agree with me that a time of abundant revenue is the most opportune for expenditure of a nonrecurring nature, and they will find in the Estimates for new works and buildings a considerable amount of expenditure of this character. Under the control of the Department of Home Affairs, the amount of £221,824 is provided, this being an increase of £131,372 on the expenditure of last year. Provision has been made for underground tunnels for telephone wires, £1 2,000 ; alteration to General Post Office, Sydney, £7,000; telephone exchanges, New South Wales, £4,000 ; alterations to General Post Office, Melbourne, £19,000; telephone exchange, Melbourne, £8,000 ; telephone exchange, Windsor, £6,000 ; extension, General Post Office, Brisbane, £17,000; telephone exchange, Adelaide, £8,000 ; Customs House, Fremantle, £7,500, the total estimated cost being £10,000 ; and purchase of land for rifle" range, Sandy Bay. Tasmania, £4,495. In the Postmaster-General's Department, £300,000 is provided for telegraphs and telephones, this being an increase of £78,301 on the expenditure of last year. Provision has also been made for the con-' struchon of conduits and the placing . of wires underground in each of the capitals. A sum of £16,000 is provided for switch boards and additional equipment for a central exchange, Sydney, and £10,000 has been again provided this year for wirelesstelegraphy. The increase in the portion of the new works and buildings vote, under the control of the PostmasterGeneral, is altogether £78,301. I now come to a very important and interesting part of the Estimates, namely, the provision made in the new works portion of the Estimates for Defence. Under the Special DefenceMaterial vote last year, £169,156 was. voted, and the expenditure was £159,988. This year it is proposed to expend £104,050 besides making further provision of £29,000 for field artillery, £10,000 for cadet rifles, £20,000 for Martini LeeEnfield rifles, and £8,000 for camp equipment. A new vote of £18,750 is asked for 25,000 sword bayonets and scabbards for short rifles, these short rifles and bayonets being considered the most effective of modern weapons for the purpose. {: .speaker-L1N} ##### Mr Wilson: -- It was stated in the newspapers that the Government were going to convert the bayonets that we already have. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- The honorable member should not take too much notice of what appears in the newspapers. Negotiations were carried on in London between the Prime Minister and the First Lord of the.: Admiralty with regard to the establishment of harbor and coastal defence in Australia, and also the payment of the naval subsidy. I am not aware of the full details of these negotiations, and would prefer that the Prime Minister himself should submit his views to the House with full details. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- The Treasurer is not aware of the full details of the negotiations, notwithstanding thathe came back: in the same steamer with the Prime Minister ? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- I did not ask him everything that was in my mind. {: .speaker-KEA} ##### Mr Kelly: -- A good deal of what the Prime Minister did is disclosed in the document referred to. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- Then thereis no necessity for me to repeat it. I have accordingly provided in my Budget proposals for the contribution of the usual' £200,000 a year to theImperial Navy. A sum, to whichi I will now refer, is the amount which has been placed upon the Estimates for the . purpose of commencing the establishment of a coastal' defence Navy. . There is no doubt that an effective coastal defence schemer can be carried out only by the expenditure of a considerable sum of money, but I feel sure that the policy of having such! a protection will commend itself to all who consider that Australia should at least protect itself from the incursion of hostile cruisers. We know how uncertain it is where the British Fleet would be stationed in time of war, and certainly Australia should be in a position to prevent its ports being blockaded or bombarded, or its commerce destroyed by perhaps one or two comparatively insignificant cruisers. There is a sum of £32,000 provided for a factory for manufacturing our cwn small .arms and ammunition, which policy, I am sure, will appeal to honorable members. The following amounts have accordingly been provided on the Estimates : - Towards harbor and coastal defence, £250,000; small arms factory, £32,000 ; cordite factory, £10,000 ; guns, lights, and emplacements for fixed defences, £50,000; total, £342,000. My honorable colleague, the Minister of Defence, desired these items to be placed in this way upon the Estimates, and being of a good-natured disposition, I agreed to his request. I have placed there " Less amount which it is anticipated will not be expended in the year, £125,950," leaving a balance of £216,050. The amount of £32,000 included for the establishment of a small arms factory represents approximately half the cost of the undertaking according to the latest estimates that have been received. The plant would provide for the local manufacture of magazine rifles, cadet rifles, revolvers and bayonets in sufficient quantities for all requirements. It is expected that the factory will be able to turn out about 20,000 rifles per annum. {: .speaker-K99} ##### Mr Johnson: -- Has the Treasurer made up his mind about the site yet? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- No; that is a Cabinet matter. The question has been raised as to whether this factory will not be useless iri a short time. My answer to that is that it will be a good thing if we are able to manufacture more rifles than we want, because then perhaps we may supply those weapons either to Great Britain or some other part of the world. £TO,000 has also been provided for the establishment of a cordite factory, and the erection of the same. **Mr. Hake,** Chief Inspector of Explosives in Victoria, is now in England making inquiries and obtaining the latest information on the sub ject- of service explosives. It is anticipated that as the result of his inquiries the defects previously experienced will be overcome, and it will be found that all our requirements in cordite can be met locally. Figures in detail are not yet available, but £10,000 will be all that will' be required this year. With reference to the ,£50,000- for guns, lights, and emplacements, the Imperial Defence Committee have recommended that the armament of the fixed defences of the Commonwealth should, as far as possible, be uniform, the gun to be used being 6-inch mark 7. The Committee of local officers appointed to consider the question agreed with the recommendation of the Imperial Defence Committee. The total cost of the recommendations of the Imperial Defence Committee, including the electric lights, will be about ,£280,000. {: .speaker-F4R} ##### Mr Watson: -- Is it proposed to get rid of the 9.2 guns at Sydney Heads? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- I do not know that it is. We are not proposing to get rid of them, but the Admiralty have made some suggestion of the sort. {: .speaker-F4R} ##### Mr Watson: -- It seems a very foolish thing to get rid of good guns like those. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- So. I informed the First Lord of the Admiralty. Honorable members are aware that under the present system of accounts, the expenditure of the Commonwealth is under two headings: one being "transferred" expenditure - that is the expenditure incurred for the maintenance and continuation of the Departments transferred from 'the States to the Commonwealth - and "other" expenditure - that is new or original expenditure on the part of the Commonwealth. Last year the "other," or new, expenditure amounted to ,£1,236,148, but deducting from that sum the provision for new works in the transferred Departments, which in ordinary circumstances would be charged to loans, and which totalled ,£472,139, New Guinea £23,626, sugar bounty and expenses _£335>9 16, repatriation of Pacific Islanders £8,015, conveyance of mails between Victoria and Tasmania £7,000, guarantee to Eastern Extension Company for the abolition of message receipts, £1,551, making a total of £848,247, we find that the net amount was £387,901, or equal to is. iod. per head of the population. If we treat the amount estimated for the current year, namely, .£1,908,654, in a similar manner, and deduct provision for new works, transferred Departments £817,874, New Guinea £25,000, sugar bounty and expenses £580,323, repatriation of Pacific Islanders £6,500, conveyance of mails between Victoria and Tasmania £13,000, guarantee to Eastern Extension 'Company £8,781, bounties ,£25,000, non-recurring expenditure £15,000, or a total of £1,491,478, we find that the net expenditure will be £417,176, or equivalent to 2s. per head of the population. 1 think I have now dealt with the expenditure at sufficient length. The following tables will, however, be useful to honorable members : - One effect of the imposition of the new duties will be that this year the State Treasurers will receive much larger surpluses than they would otherwise have done. Under section 87 of the Constitution, the expenditure of the Commonwealth is limited to onefourth of . the Customs and Excise revenue, the corollary to which is that the States must receive three-fourths of such revenue. This state of things will last until the termination of the ten years period on the 31st of December, 1910. I consider that this provision in the Constitution places the Federal Treasurer in an exceedingly difficult position, and I shall point out later on when I deal with our prospective ' requirements', how seriously the Commonwealth is hampered -by the operation of "this clause. I may also remind the Committee that, as the period of five years fixed by clause 94 of the Constitution, which defined the manner in which the surplus revenue was to be handed to the various States, has expired, it is not necessary that such surplus revenue shall be handed to the State Treasurers according to the system of debits and credits we have hitherto been accustomed to. In fact, I am advised that, by Act of Parliament, these conditions can now be varied in a manner which will be advantageous to the Federal Trea surer. It is estimated that the following amounts will be paid over : - It is estimated that in the current year the States will receive £65,550 less than last year. They will also receive £103,992 more than the three-fourths of the net Cus toms and Excise revenue which is secured to them by section 87 of the Constitution. Last year the amount of £805,766 was returned in excess. The figures for 1907-8 are : Table showing the Effect of Section 87 of the Constitution (Braddon Clause), which provides that it? Commonwealth shall pay to the States three-fourths of the Net Customs and Excise Revenue. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- The honorable gentleman's figures show that we are over the limit by £250,000. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- No. As I have shown, the States will receive £103,992 more than the three-fourths of the net revenue returnable to them under the Braddon section. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- We ought to pay them £350,000 in respect of the properties which have been transferred to us. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- I shall deal with that matter in its proper place. I have previously referred at some length to the operation of the Braddon clause, and to its hampering effect on the Federal Treasurer. We have, in the future, also to provide for the payment to the States for transferred properties, to which I shall afterwards refer, for the- development of the Northern Territory and Papua, and for old-age pensions. Further expenditure will, doubtless,, be necessary for the transcontinental rail- way, for quarantine, and the Meteorological Bureau. This year I provide only £25,000 for bounties, and the annual expenditure will be a much larger amount. In reference to the question of payment to the States for transferred properties, I have not had time, nor is it yet necessary, to fully consider the matter. The valuation of properties is proceeding rapidly, and will soon be completed. A scheme must be devised to arrange for equitable payments. {: .speaker-F4R} ##### Mr Watson: -- Will account be taken of what the States have already received ? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- That is a mat,ter which must be dealt with when I consider the subject in detail. It has been quite impossible for me to deal with large problems during the. short period that I have been Treasurer, but the State Treasurers may be satisfied that they will be fairly dealt with in this important matter. The estimated population of the Commonwealth, on 31st December,. 1906, was 4,119,481, as shown in the following table- Since the establishment of Federation there has been a total estimated increase of only 354,142, the annual rate of increase being 1.5 per cent. That this condition of things is satisfactory, I think no one will admit. We cannot but realize that, whilst Canada has, by judicious land legislation and a great expenditure in advertising its resources, succeeded in attracting a very large number of settlers, from Great Britain especially, Australia has been somewhat supine in the matter. With such a large coast-line to guard, and with such formidable neighbours, it certainly behoves us to do what we can in the .direction of filling up this great continent with a suitable, industrious, and thriving population. {: .speaker-KNH} ##### Mr Mathews: -- We shall have them . walking about doing nothing. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- That is not ray intention. Although it is eminently desirable that a large population shall, be settled in Australia, I am of opinion that we should be careful that the class of immigrant we attract to our -shores is a desirable one. I think that before we take any important steps in the direction of inducing them to leave their present surroundings and try their fortunes in a new country, we should know that land is available in the various States, and that proper arrangements are made for meeting them on arrival, and every facility given to them to select their land. It is, however, hoped that arrangements will shortly be made so that the Commonwealth Government can co-operate with the State Governments in this direction. Accordingly, a sum of £20,000 has been placed on the Estimates to further this policy, so desirable in the interests of Australia Last year, only £5,000 was voted, so that we now propose a large increase, but I wish that a larger sum were available. Whilst in London, at the instance of the Prime Minister, I selected a site which appeared to me a very convenient one for the Commonwealth Offices in London. It appears to me desirable that, if possible, we should induce the State Premiers to centralize their London staffs in one building, and for that building to be fairly in the centre of traffic. I have accordingly proposed a most suitable site in the Strand, and a sum of £2,000 appears on the Estimates for expenditure in connexion therewith. The reason that only £2,000 has been placed on the Estimates at present is that for a time only incidental and preliminary expenses will be incurred. If the site to which I have referred is obtained, and I have the offer of it for about six or seven weeks, and of another area in this particular place, we shall pay nothing at all for the first year, and shall not pay the full rent until five years have elapsed. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- Is it the ground rent that will be payable? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- Yes, the ground rent upon . a ninety nine years' lease. It is impossible to buy the land, because it is not for sale. {: .speaker-K5D} ##### Mr King O'Malley: -- What is the value of it? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- I would rather not say at present, because negotiations are still going on. I know what **Mr. Bent** paid for a part of the land, and a portion of it was offered to me at the same, rate. {: .speaker-K5D} ##### Mr King O'Malley: -- Is it not the intention .that there should be the one building for the States and the Commonwealth ? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- Yes ; that is certainly intended. In this connexion let me say that I was never more disgusted with anything in my life than I was with the difficulty I had to find the offices of the Australian States in London. They are scattered through the city. I was in only two of them, though I looked for three or four others. I think it is quite time that some better arrangements were made and a proper office established, not only for the representatives of the States, but also for the Commonwealth High Commissioner. I feel that the appointment of such an official cannot be very much longer delayed. {: .speaker-L1H} ##### Mr Liddell: -- Has the honorable gentleman made provision for the appointment ? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- No; that will be done in a special Bill. Honorable members who know the site to which I refer will not be surprised when I say that it was by far the most suitable place for the purpose that I saw when in London. Of course, the proposed offices when established, will be available for the High Commissioner. of the Commonwealth, and his staff. If the proposal is accepted a building will, of course, be erected. The site belongs to the London County Council, and if the States Governments do not avail themselves of the opportunity which will be afforded them to establish their offices in the building, the accommodation provided can Be easily sub-let until they have decided to do so. {: .speaker-KWL} ##### Mr Tudor: -- Did the honorable gentleman say that the site belongs to the London County Council? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- Yes ; they resumed the land and took down the buildings that were erected upon it. The land is now vacant, and the London County Council are making a new street there. No provision has been made on the Estimates for the development of the Northern Territory. I take it that nothing can be done in this matter until the Commonwealth Parliament and the State Par liament of South Australia come to an agreement as to the cession of the Territory to the Commonwealth. It is well known, however, that provisional arrangements have been made with the Premier of South Australia for the Commonwealth to take over the Territory under certain conditions if Parliament concurs. Dealing with affairs in Papua, I may say that Judge Murray is at present acting as Administrator, and **Mr. Staniforth** Smith is attending to agricultural matters in that territory. The whole subject of the future administration of Papua is under consideration, and will .be dealt with as expeditiously as possible. I do not propose to say very much on the subject of banking legislation, but I certainly intend, if time permits, to deal with the subject. My late colleague, the ex-Treasurer, gave it much thought, and put his ideas concerning it into type. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- I did not settle the question. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- I aim quite aware of that. No doubt the right honorable gentleman gave very great thought to this important matter, and when I come to deal with it, and with some other questions, I shall be very glad if he will give me the benefit of his experience and ideas in framing a good banking Bill. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- I shall be very glad to assist the honorable member. {: .speaker-KJE} ##### Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Does the honorable gentleman suggest the establishment of a State bank? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- I think it will be something approaching a State bank. I may tell honorable members that when in London, and when I had no idea that I should be placed in my present position as Treasurer, I had the privilege of an invitation to lunch with the Governor and Directors of the Bank of England. {: .speaker-K7U} ##### Mr Crouch: -- That is not a State bank ; it is a private bank. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- An offshoot of that bartle is practically a State bank. It so happened that the Governor of the Bank of England had a- copy of the Banking Bill drafted by my right honorable friend the ex-Treasurer, which had been sent to him by the right honorable gentleman. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Things have evidently gone very far. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- I did not know of it before. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- That was all confidential. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- Of course, and I am satisfied that it was a very good thing for' the ex-Treasurer to do, as honorable members will find, when they know what the opinion of the authorities of the Bank of England was in regard to the matter. The Governor of the Bank of England was informed that I had been a member of a Ministry that had a good deal to do in New South Wales with the question of banking at the time of the banking crisis in 1893, and I had a long conversation with him, which will be of very great assistance to me when I come to deal with the question. {: .speaker-L1N} ##### Mr Wilson: -- What revenue does the honorable gentleman expect to get from the issue of the Treasury notes proposed ? {: #subdebate-15-1-s2 .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · PROT; IND from 1910 -- Perhaps the honorable member will ask me that question later on. With reference to old-age pensions, like my colleague, the Minister of Trade and Customs, I. have always taken a great interest in the proposed Federalization of old-age pensions, and as my record, at any rate, in New South Wales, shows, I have always been prepared to make an onward step towards providing for such pensions as early as possible. Once the Tariff has been sufficiently mastered in this House, I intend to devote myself to the examination of the possibilities in this direction, of which Parliament will be duly informed. I hope that the money can be found for the establishment of a Federal scheme at once, because the matter is one which cannot be allowed to rest. Honorable members will admit that stepping into the Treasury Department as I have done, and having to find such a large amount of money, I have not had time up to the present to consider any practical scheme. I wish, however, to remind honorable members that before the election last year, an attempt was made by the Government to secure a referendum for the alteration of the Constitution to provide for the imposition of special duties for the purpose of old-age pensions. That attempt was defeated in the Senate by only one or two votes, but where there is a will there is a way, and the question is one of such greatimportance, that if I cam possibly bring about the establishment of a Federal oldage pension scheme, it shall be done. {: .speaker-F4R} ##### Mr Watson: -- I hope the honorable gentleman will put the Opposition to the test, and see if they are in favour of oldage pensions. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- At the recent Conference in London, the Prime Minister was informed that there would be no objec tion raised on the part of the Imperial Government to a special silver and bronze coinage for Australia. The Prime Minister is still in communication with the Imperial authorities, who have been asked to facilitate the displacement of the present coinage. It may be confidently anticipated that, at an early date, this matter will be settled, and the Commonwealth will receive the profit on the Australian coinage. I was present when that statement was made, . and it was emphasized in a way that showed that the Imperial Government fully intended that we should be allowed to carry out what we desire in this respect. {: .speaker-K5D} ##### Mr King O'Malley: -- It will mean ?. profit of only about £25,000. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- That would be something. Five Conferences have now been held with the Premiers of the States' in order to come to an understanding as to the best method of arriving at the surplus to be paid over by the Commonwealth Treasurer to the States after the termination of the operation of the Braddon section of the Constitution, and also to assist the Treasurer in making arrangements for. the transfer of the debts of the States to the Commonwealth. At the Hobart Conference, in 1905, it was agreed to by the Commonwealth representatives, and by a majority of the States, that the Braddon section should remain in operation until 1930, that the whole of the States debts should be taken over by the Commonwealth, and that the States should cease to borrow outside of Australia except through the Commonwealth. At the Sydney Conference, held twelve months later, the States' representatives passed resolutions stating that in their opinion the Braddon section should be operative for all time, and that the Commonwealth surplus revenues should be divided among the States on a population basis. On this latter question, the Premiers of New South Wales and Victoria dissented; Western Australia was not represented. At the Sydney Conference, it was also agreed that the time was ripe for the Federal Parliament to consider the question of taking over the States' debts, in accordance with section 105 of the Constitution. In October, 1906, a Conference was held in Melbourne, at which my predecessor, the right honorable member for Swan, brought forward certain proposals. The State representatives passed the resolutions which follow - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. The Constitution to be amended to provide for payments to the States of a fixed annual amount based on the three-fourths of the net revenue from Customs and Excise up to 1910. 1. A payment in addition to such fixed amount to be made to bring the aggregate payment' to the States up to three-fourths of the net Customs and Excise Revenue - such additional payment to be distributed per capita. 2. The Commonwealth to have the right to impose new duties for specific purposes, and to retain the whole of the revenue raised thereby. The Conference also expressed a general approval of the ex-Treasurer's scheme for taking over the whole of the States debts, and left the discussion of the details to a future Conference. Two months ago, another Conference was held in Brisbane, when the following proposals were agreed to by the Premiers - {: type="1" start="1"} 0. From 1910 until 1920, and thereafter until Parliament otherwise provides, the 'States to receive a fixed annual sum based on the average of three-fourths of the net Customs and Excise revenue during certain years. {: type="1" start="2"} 0. The States to receive a payment in addi tion to such fixed amount to bring the aggregate payment to the States up to three-fourths of the new Customs and Excise revenue, such additional payment to be distributed per capita. 1. The Commonwealth to have the right to impose new duties for specific purposes, both on items at present subject to duty, and also on items at present not subject to duty - the Commonwealth Treasurer to retain the whole of the revenue raised thereby. The above three clauses, which were agreed to, were those submitted to the Conference by the right honorable member for Swan. The Conference also agreed that the further consideration of the taking over of the States debts by the Commonwealth should be postponed until the question of distribution of the surplus revenue amongst the States was determined. {: .speaker-KJE} ##### Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- The honorable gentleman is not surprised at the States being willing to accept that provision? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- Not at all. Of course, those provisions would not be binding on Parliament ; they were adopted subject to ratification by Parliament. With regard to the other question - the continuation of the operation of the Braddon section - it appears very evident from the figures I have quoted this evening that such an arrangement, however desirable to the States, will be quite impossible in view of public expenditure which must be carried out by the Commonwealth. I have been called so suddenly to takethe position I now occupy, and Have had so little opportunity of considering this question, that I feel that some time must elapse before my views are thoroughly matured. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Has the Treasurer correctly stated the position? Is it not a fact that the ex-Treasurer offered the States the surplus out of the, special duties ? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- Yes. The statement I have given has been handed to me by my officers. {: .speaker-KXK} ##### Mr Webster: -- Has the honorable gentleman made any provision for increased allowances to members of this House? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- I am not sorry the honorable member has asked that question, because no one can shut his eyes to the fact that it is very hard for some members to come to this Parliament at all under existing conditions. I understand that this is not a party question. It is one for the consideration of members themselves, and I must say that if honorable members desire the matter to be considered, the Government will afford an early opportunity for that to be done. {: .speaker-KJE} ##### Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Surely it is a question for their constituents to have an opportunity of considering? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- I have nothing to say about my constituents in that regard, because I expressed my views on many occasions, and so have a large number of honorable members. I have merely made these remarks in answer to a question. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Is that all the an-; swer to it? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- I shall give another answer very shortly, I believe, but not to-night. I was going to say something about the protective policy. When I have concluded my Financial Statement, I intend, before I sit down, to submit the Tariff, and to give a short explanation of it. Let me say, first, that in a country like Australia - so different from every other country - even if we suffer occasionally a time of depression, caused by climatic conditions, which we cannot control, it would ill become us as a people to take a pessimistic view of the future. We are not in the same category with countries whose development has been carried to the highest pitch; but, on the contrary, we are yet unaware how great are our possibilities. With such an immense country, possessing such great resources, with industries so certain of development, we can afford to be optimistic, and confidently look forward to a prosperous future for the Commonwealth. Honorable members will find in the Tariff, to the preparation of which a great deal of work has been' devoted, a better arrangement of the duties, which are brought under headings with which they are more distinctly associated than in the previous Tariff. Honorable members will find two columns, one showing the general Tariff, and another applying to goods produced or manufactured in the United Kingdom. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Is there not another column to show the difference between the present duties and the proposed duties? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- Not on this paper, but I shall submit a paper in which that information is given. I have a great deal more information available, but I have kept this copy clean because it is the one on which the duties are to be collected. I desire to refer to the question of iron bounties. Honorable members know that I have tried twice - I think that my honorable colleague has tried once - to pass ah Iron Bounties Bill, but failed. I hope that we may succeed on this occasion. I have an Iron Bounties Bill ready to submit. I have not brought it here to-night, because there is no necessity to submit it now. {: .speaker-F4R} ##### Mr Watson: -- Is that a Bill to provide for a bounty on the production of iron? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- Yes. {: .speaker-F4R} ##### Mr Watson: -- Where does the honorable gentleman expect to get the money from, seeing that, according to his estimates, he expects to have a surplus of only £100,000 ? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- I shall tell the honorable member when I am discussing the question. {: .speaker-F4R} ##### Mr Watson: -- It is only a fair thing that in his Budget the honorable gentleman should tell us where he expects to get the money from. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- Perhaps the honorable member will not object to the way in which I propose to raise the money. I have here a provision to which I wish to call attention. It will be remembered that our previous proposals contained a division - VIa. - which empowered the Minister to recommend, under certain conditions, the imposition of a duty, that is, when a sufficient quantity of raw material was manufactured in the Commonwealth. I have in the Tariff a similar provision with a slightly different heading. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr McWILLIAMS:
FRANKLIN, TASMANIA · REV TAR; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; CP from 1920; IND from 1928 -- The Minister proposes to have a duty instead of a bonus? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- I am going to have either a bonus or a duty this time. The Prime Minister is very anxious that I should submit a proposal; for bounties first, because there is no doubt that that has been the course followed in other countries. I want to give honorable members an opportunity of voting on the Bill, but if it is not carried, I shall resort to the duties which are mentioned in Division VIa. The proposal is to levy a duty of 12½ per cent. on pig iron. The duty on other items is a little higher. In Division VIb. I have a provision enumerating most of the manufactures in which pig iron and steel are used. These items are already included at lesser rates in the part of the Tariff which will come into force tomorrow. If the Iron Bounties Bill is not carried, and the imposition of the duties is authorized, then I shall ask the Committee to omit the heading from Division VIb., and bring into operation a duty of 2 per cent. on those items in order to make up for the extra payment on the raw material. {: .speaker-K7U} ##### Mr Crouch: -- Do I understand that a duty will be collected on iron to-morrow ? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- I have made provision so that I can get a duty under certain conditions. If a duty is preferred to a bonus, then in the Tariff I have a division from which I can strike out the heading, so there will be an increased duty on the manufactured article, protecting the manufacturer to the extent of 2 per cent. {: .speaker-K7U} ##### Mr Crouch: -- It ought to be well considered, anyhow. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- It has been framed in such a way that it will be well considered. I was very much tempted to propose a duty which could be levied forthwith, but I recognised that if we put a duty on the raw material without giving some compensation to the manufacturer we should do a great injustice. {: .speaker-F4R} ##### Mr Watson: -- How much is the duty on pig iron to the manufacturer? Only 1 or 2 per cent. at the outside. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- I have a calculation showing that it is equal to from 1¼ to 2 per cent. {: .speaker-F4R} ##### Mr Watson: -- It is hardly worth talking about. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- I have put on a duty of 2 per cent. to make an equivalent, so that the manufacturer shall not be injured in either case. {: .speaker-F4R} ##### Mr Watson: -- The honorable gentleman is very tender about some manufacturers. {: .speaker-KJE} ##### Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Can the Minister give an approximate idea of what the amountof the iron bounty will be? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -There is a schedule attached to the Bill. Some items have been struck out, but the bounty is less than was proposed on a' previous occasion. {: .speaker-KJE} ##### Mr W H IRVINE:
FLINDERS, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- What was it then ? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- I do not remember the exact amount; but I think it was nearly £500,000. Perhaps I had better say here that, at the present moment, some negotiations are proceeding in reference to an exchange of the products of the New Hebrides and New Guinea, The negotiations had not advanced sufficiently for me to deal with the matter in my Budget, but the Prime Minister is anxious that the Committee should know that negotiations are proceeding in regard to the products of those and other Pacific Islands. I have a list here which I shall have printed, showing the imports from Great Britain and from foreign countries on which a preference is given. In most cases, where the imports from foreign countries are large, we have given a preference to Great Britain, and I have been advised that, on the items which have been considered, it averages per cent., and that the annual difference in duty payable, between the general Tariff and the preference Tariff, would be between £1,200,000 and £1,300,000. {: .speaker-JZF} ##### Mr Fuller: -- Is the Minister reducing the present duties in order to do that? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- Only in one or two cases. For the information of honorable members, especially the protectionist side of the Tariff Commission - I shall also refer to the free-trade side, because they are widely different- {: .speaker-JZF} ##### Mr Fuller: -- We shall be very glad to be recognised. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- I am afraid that that is the extent to which I can go. {: .speaker-JZF} ##### Mr Fuller: -- That is all I expected. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- I have not had it worked out; but I am inclined to think that, on the whole, the result of the recommendations of the free- trade members of the Tariff Commission would be to reduce the present duties. The number of items on which the proposed Tariff agrees with the recommendations of the other members of that body is 325 out of a total of 444. The number of items on which It does not agree with their recommendations is 82, and the number of new items is 37. There are one or two cases in which the recommendation of the Tariff Commission has been reduced a little. But in most cases we have done what we could to give recognition to the reports to which so much time and labour have been devoted. I do not think that it is necessary to read the paper which I have before me with reference to the pre ference proposals of the Government, but the following table shows the value of the imports in 1906 of the articles enumerated below from Great Britain and from foreign countries, including British Dominions : - The concessions will, on the basis of our present imports, represent £1,250,000. or 11 J per cent. That is to say, that amount represents the difference in duty between the general Tariff and the preference Tariff ; but as it is expected that the imports from Great Britain will increase in consequence of these preference proposals, it will not be improper to estimate that the concession will amount to, say, £1,500,000, or 1 3 J- per cent. {: .speaker-JUV} ##### Mr Mcwilliams: -- Is that on the basis of the existing Tariff or of the proposed Tariff? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- On the basis of the proposed Tariff. {: .speaker-K7U} ##### Mr Crouch: -- Is it conditional on Great Britain giving Australia any concession in return ? , {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- None whatever are asked by us. I wish to add in reference to that question, that I am very sorry that Great Britain cannot see her way clear to give us some preference. When I was in Great Britain on one or two occasions I took the opportunity - and I know that the Prime Minister did also - to say that, although we did not receive the concession that we asked for, or any other concession, from Great Britain, still Australia did not intend to approach this question again from the point of view of bargaining. We shall, however, always be very glad indeed to accept any concession that Great Britain may think fit to give to us. {: .speaker-JOC} ##### Mr Batchelor: -- Is any preference proposed with any other country than Great Britain ? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- Not in these proposals, but what the honorable member suggests can be done. I have been considering the question in reference to Canada, and when I was in London I had an interview with **Sir Wilfrid** Laurier and the Canadian Treasurer with regard to it. But it seeme'3 to be almost impossible to arrive at an understanding. Otherwise proposals would have been embodied in the Tariff now submitted. An arrangement can, however, be made with Canada at any time by way of a reciprocal Tariff. The South African Preference Tariff will continue on the same footing as at present. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Is the honorable gentleman able to state how the preference proposals will affect Great Britain? Are the duties affecting her put up or down ? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- The duties against Great Britain are below those affecting other countries. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Is it proposed to reduce any duties? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- I will not say whether we are reducing any, but if so they are very few. The point is that the preference to Great Britain takes the form of duties lower than those against other countries. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Is it proposed to take any duties off for the benefit of Great Britain ? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- I am not sure. I cannot say positively, but I do not wish the honorable member to take that answer as definite. The. British preference proposals of the Government affect 153 items, all of which are important, out of a total of 436 items. We think that that is a fairly reasonable preference to make. I am glad to find, from the cheers of honorable members, that they are in accord with the Government in the action they are taking, and that they also approve of the policy of the Government in not asking for reciprocity from Great Britain in connexion with our preference proposals. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Does the Minister intend to give us any idea as to the scale or range of the new duties? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- I cannot go into details. There are 245 columns in the new Tariff. I have devoted a considerable amount of work to it during the last week or two, and- 1 am sure that the Committee will not expect me to deal with the ques- . tion more fully to-night. The Tariff will be circulated at once. I have had a weight on my mind with regard to it for a good many days past. Our proposals have been ready for practically a fortnight. The members of the Government and the officials concerned with this work have had to maintain the greatest secrecy.. I think that we have kept our secret very well ; though I admit that I was almost expecting every morning to see something in the press, and to be compelled, in consequence, to bring down the Tariff in the course of the day. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- What is the average amount of the increases? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- I have not those particulars at my fingers' ends, but I can get the information for the honorable member. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- We ought to have it here. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- The principal thing is that I have brought the' Tariff down and circulated it. It will be something for honorable members lo consider during the next few days. {: .speaker-F4R} ##### Mr Watson: -- Even now the Opposition are not satisfied, though they have been clamouring for the Tariff for the last month ! {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- If they read the whole of it, they will have more than sufficient food for reflection for to-night. I have to conclude by thanking honorable members . for their consideration and patience in listening to a speech that has occupied nearly two hours. I hope that I have been as concise as was consistent with the nature of the subject, engaged as I have been in the delivery of a Budget which is of unusual importance, having regard to the future of this Commonwealth. I beg to move - >That duties of Customs and duties of Excise be imposed according to the following Tariff to come into operation on the 8th August, 1907, at 4 p.m. Victorian time : - {: .page-start } page 1648 {:#debate-16} ### IMPORT DUTIES {: .page-start } page 1648 {:#debate-17} ### THE CUSTOMS TARIFF All imitations to be dutiable at the rate chargeable on the goods they imitate, unless such rate is less than the rate which would otherwise be chargeable on the imitations. "Proof" or "Proof Spirit" means spirit of a strength equal to that of pure ethyl alcohol compounded with distilled water so that the resultant mixture at a temperature of 60° Fahrenheit has a specific gravity of 09198 as compared with that of distilled water at the same temperature. The term "Iron" includes Steel. "Sheet," When applied to Metals, means a sheet or plate not exceeding3/10ths of an inch in thickness ; When applied to Glass, means a sheet or plate not exceeding1/8 of an inch in thickness. Plate," When applied to Metals, means a plate or sheet more than3/10ths of an inch in thickness; When applied to Glass, means a plate or sheet more than1/8 of an inch in thickness. " N.E.I." means " not elsewhere included." "Departmental by-law " means by-law made by the Minister, and published in the *Gazette.* Any article, not otherwise dutiable, composed of a combination of other articles, some of which Are dutiable when imported separately, and of others free of duty when imported separately, shall be dealt with as follows : - >When the value of the dutiable portion exceeds the value of the free portion, duty shall be charged upon the whole article at the same rate as would be chargeable on that portion of the dutiable portion which, if imported separately would be liable to the highest rate of duty. > >When the value of the free portion exceeds the value of the dutiable portion of such article, the whole article shall be admitted free of duty. EXCISE DUTIES. All imitations to be dutiable at the rate chargeable on the goods they imitate, unless such rate is less than the rate which would otherwise be chargeable on the imitations. 1 ' N. E.I. " means ' : not elsewhere included. " {: #debate-17-s0 .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I rise for the purpose of asking for an adjournment of the debate on the Budget. Our trouble is that we have not been able to" get sufficient information about "it. We know very little about it now. This is the first time I have ever known a Tariff to be laid on "the table of a Parliament without honorable members being given the slightest inkling as to what it contains. We appear to be living in a new era in regard to 'these matters. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- At any fate, I did not throw the Tariff down on the table and say, " Take it or leave it." {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I do not intend to ask for the customary adjournment for a week, but I would ask the Acting Prime Minister to consent to an adjournment of the debate until Wednesday next. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- I shall be glad to meet the wishes of the honorable member. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I do not wish to have any unnecessary delay in regard to the consideration of either the Budget or the Tariff, and with that object in view I ask for a shorter adjournment than usual. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- I am happy to be able to comply with the honorable member's wishes. {: #debate-17-s1 .speaker-JZF} ##### Mr FULLER:
Illawarra -- I wish to ask the Actings-Prime Minister whether he will have printed" and circulated, for the information of honorable members, the whole of the reports of the Tariff Commission ? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- Certainly. I 'have had to keep them secret so far, but they shall be circulated. {: #debate-17-s2 .speaker-K5D} ##### Mr KING O'MALLEY:
Darwin -- I wish to ask the Acting Prime Minister whether he intends to give honorable members an opportunity of discussing the suggested increase in the allowances to members of Parliament? {: #debate-17-s3 .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist -- If honorable members desire to deal with the subject, they can do so next week. At any rate, it will be dealt with as soon as possible. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- The Minister has not the pluck to say anything definite upon the subject. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- Honorable members know my opinion. I am in favour of the increases.- Progress reported. {: .page-start } page 1678 {:#debate-18} ### QUESTION {:#subdebate-18-0} #### BUDGET PAPERS {: #subdebate-18-0-s0 .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · Hume · Protectionist -- - 1 beg to lay on the table the Budget Papers, and move - >That the papers be printed. . Question resolved in the affirmative. {: .page-start } page 1678 {:#debate-19} ### ADJOURNMENT {:#subdebate-19-0} #### Order of Business. - Pulmonary Phthisis - Tariff Information Motion, (by **Sir .** William Lyne) proposed - >That the House do now adjourn. {: #subdebate-19-0-s0 .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I should like to know whether the Acting Prime Minister proposes that we shall meet to-morrow, or whether we are to spend the day in cogitating over the Tariff, which he has not explained. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- I have explained it sufficiently for the honorable member. He knows all about it. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- Then if we are to meet to-morrow what business is to be taken ? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir William Lyne: -- We shall proceed with the consideration of the Quarantine Bill. {: #subdebate-19-0-s1 .speaker-L1H} ##### Mr LIDDELL:
Hunter .- I feel it my duty at this stage to call the attention of the House to a matter of much moment to the Commonwealth. At the outset I must apologize to honorable members for proposing to address them after having listened to the lengthy speech made by the Acting Prime Minister in submitting the Budget and the Tariff, but I am sure they will not grudge me the time 1 shall 'occupy in bringing this question before them. The subject is one that I can deal with only on a motion for the adjournment of the House, and had it been exceedingly urgent, I should have availed myself of an opportunity earlier in the day to submit a formal adjournment motion in order that it might be discussed. Yesterday I put the following question to the Acting Prime Minister - >In the cases of how many prohibited immigrants within the meaning of sub-section *d* of section 3 -of the Immigration Restriction Acts' 1901-1905, has that provision been put in force on the ground that immigrants were suffering from pulmonary phthisis (consumption) ? The reply to that question was as follows - >There is no record of any person having been, refused admission to the Commonwealth under paragraph *d* of section 3 of the Immigration Restriction Acts 1901-1905, on account of suffering from consumption. Two persons suffering from the above disease were, however, prohibited under the provisions of paragraph *b* of this section, on the ground that they were likely to become a charge upon a public or charitable institution. This shows that no serious attempt has been made to prevent the introduction of persons suffering from tubercular disease to Australia. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- Does the honorable member think that they should be prohibited? {: .speaker-L1H} ##### Mr LIDDELL: -- I intend to point out a method by which the danger consequent upon the introduction of such people into Australia may be ameliorated. It may appear somewhat harsh to suggest that people suffering from tubercular disease who seek an asylum in Australia, should be prevented from taking advantage of our genial and generous climate. At the same time I would remind honorable members that we have to consider the healthy people resident in Australia as well as those whomay come after us. {: #subdebate-19-0-s2 .speaker-10000} ##### Mr SPEAKER: -- Order. I admit that there is an excuse for perhaps a little excitement on the part of honorable members to-night, but I must ask them to converse in much lower tones than they are doing, since it is impossible for the honorable member to make himself heard. {: .speaker-L1H} ##### Mr LIDDELL: -- It is useless to draw attention to a danger of this kind unless one is prepared to offer a remedy. I propose first of all to show how serious the position is, and then to suggest a remedy. On turning to page 200 of Coghlan's *Statistical Account of Australia and New Zealand* for 1903-4, we find the following Phthisis claims more victims in Australasia than any other disease, but notwithstanding this fact the death rates are lower than in the other countries of the world. This is all the more gratifying when it is considered that many persons afflicted with the disease, or pre-disposed to it, are attracted to this country in the hope of obtaining relief, as the Australian climate is undoubtedly favorable to people suffering from pulmonaiy complaints. During 1903 phthisis caused 3,571 deaths in the Commonwealth, and 570 in New Zealand - equal to rates of 9.13 and 6.95 respectively per 10,000 living. In the *Official Year Book of New South Wales,* for 1904-5, the following passage appears - The Australian climate is certainly favorable to those who suffer from pulmonary diseases, and a large number of persons suffering from phthisis visit Australia in search of relief. Many of these are in the last stages of the disease, and succumb after a short residence in the State. The experience of the last ten years shows that 5 per cent, of the fatal cases of phthisis were those of persons whose residence in Australia had not exceeded five years, and 2 per cent. of those who had been resident less than one year. The figures for the year 1904 show that out of the 1,195 persons who died from phthisis 767 were born in Australasia, and of the remainder 40 had been resident in the Commonwealth less than five years, 86 from five to twenty years, and 270 for more than twenty years. Of the total persons dying from this disease 623, or 51 per cent., comprising 329 males and 294 females, were married, the familiesborn to some of them being ratherlarge. The experience of the last ten years shows that the average number of children to married males who died from phthisis was 4.05, and to married females. 3.96. Nearly 80 per cent. of the issue born of these persons survived them. Phthisis is the most deadly of all diseases, and the following comparison showing the rates in various countries is interesting. The rates are based on the experience of the last ten years, and are stated per 1,000 of total population, and thus do not take into account either age or sex, which, as will be seen from the preceding tables, are rather material factors. If anything, this omission renders the comparison favorable to New South Wales and other Australian States, because here the proportion of aged persons is smaller than in the countries of the Old World. This tends to show that the Australian climate is, to. a certain extent, favorable for the treatment and the amelioration of the disease of phthisis. The following table also appears in the *Year Book -* It will be seen thatthe rate in New South Wales is fourth lowest in the above list. The rate in all the European countries is higher than in New South Wales, the three with lower rates being all Australian States. The experience of all these countries, with the exception of Ireland, is similar to that of New South Wales, namely, that the rate is decreasing. In Ireland it is increasing, and in Austria' and Switzerland it is practically stationary. I have made these quotations with theobject of showing how necessary it is that we should endeavour to prevent the introduction of this disease from oversea. I should like to show the nature of the disease in so far as an explanation is necessary to illustrate the points that I wish to make. Consumption is not an infectious disease in the ordinary sense of the term. It is really communicated from one person to another through the medium of the seeds of the disease. That is to say, certain germs develop in the course of phthisis, which may be carried abroad by the air, and ' inhaled by people, who thus have the disease implanted in them. In the early stages of consumption, the disease is not, as a rule, particularly dangerous to those persons with whom the patient comes in contact; but, when the disease has so far progressed that the lung tissue begins to break down, owing to the extensive growth of the germ within the tissue itself, it is very dangerous. It is comparatively easy, therefore, for medical men to determine whether a patient suffering from phthisis is in a condition likely to spread the disease, because it is possible, by microscopic examination of the sputum or spittle, to ascertain if the germ is there. It is when the patient, in that stage of disease, goes about living in different houses, and communicating withdifferent people, while taking no precaution in the way of disinfection, that the disease is most likely to be disseminated throughout the Commonwealth.. Another peculiarity is that, although consumption is not absolutely hereditary, parents hand down certain constitutional characteristics to their children, who are thus, perhaps, more liable to attack than other people are. It does not necessarily follow, however, that the disease is hereditary - that much, I think, has been practically proved by scientists. **Dr. Norris,** the head of the Health Department of Victoria, has kindly handed me a report which was issued after an investigation made in that State. In this report, it is stated that it was discovered that the number pf cases which could be distinctly traced as having come from oversea, was about 3 per cent. - that 5 per cent, of the cases came from beyond the State, and probably 3 per cent, from oversea - but, at the same time, it is pointed out that the number of oversea cases would probably have been- proportionately increased had the cases which were treated in. the hospital been taken into account. It. appears, however, that the cases treated in the hospital were not followed up, but -.only those which were treated in private houses. Some of the latter cases may be of special interest, as showing how the disease is carried from person to person, and family to family, and how it is that, large portions of. families are sometimesswept away. The following is an extract from the report: - >Report of investigation of the personal, family, and .sanitary circumstances of personsreported as having died in 1902 in the Metropolitan Area from tuberculosis in private premises. > >S.H., female, aged 27; died from pulmonary tuberculosis; had nursed her brother and mother, who died of same disease; mother had previously nursed a daughter and son, who had died of the disease; no history of any hereditary taint; family had occupied same house 45 years; house very defectively lighted ; badly ventilated ;. no disinfection had been carried out after death of any case prior to that of S.H. Four other members of same family who left during illnessof first member attacked by tuberculosis, are all alive ,and' well. > >E.H., female, aged 24; died from pulmonary tuberculosis ; had nursed her husband, who was suffering from the same disease whenthey married. After his death she had occupied the position of domestic servant in *several houses* until too weak to work. Came home to her mother to die in one month. > >J.T.P., history of having been ill fdr several years, and of having lived at a *number* of boarding-houses during that period. Five weeks only at lodging-house at which he died. . > >M.C., female; died of pulmonary tuberculosis; had nursed her husband, and subsequently a daughter, suffering from same disease. > >A.G., female, died of pulmonary tuberculosis ; family had occupied house for twenty years ; father and brother had also died of same disease. > >R.H.', male, aged 30; died of pulmonary tuberculosis ; family had left Ireland eight years? previously owing to a daughter having contracted tuberculosis while living in house in> which wife of previous tenant, had died of same disease. Mother of R.H. informed me' that a member of the family, who subsequently occupied the house; had also died of pulmonarytuberculosis. > >A.S., male; *fifth* in the family who has died from tuberculosis acquired while living in South Melbourne, where mother suffered for several years from the disease ; no disinfection) carried out until the death of A.S. Here we have a series of cases which show distinctly how this disease can be communicated from one. patient to another, or from husband to wife, and mother to children - how, as a matter of fact, although the disease is not hereditary, the fact of living, in a house where it has occurred, exposes a healthy person to considerable risk. {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr Groom: -- Have the State authorities of New South Wales taken any- action? . {: .speaker-L1H} ##### Mr LIDDELL: -- The local authorities of the various States have taken, action in the way of encouraging patients to go into various sanatoria. {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr Groom: -- Do the local authorities of New South Wales require notification in case of death from consumption, and subsequent disinfection of the premises? {: .speaker-L1H} ##### Mr LIDDELL: -- The State authorities have made consumption a notifiable disease in both Victoria and New South. Wales. Further, indigent, patients are, as far .is possible, encouraged to enter hospitals, where they are taught to disinfect their feeding requisites, their towels, and so forth, and are shown the best methods of living, so as to avoid spreading the disease. These patients, when they return to their homes, carry out that *regime* with great advantage. I do not think it is necessary to exclude tubercular patients who propose to come to this country. Many such persons may derive great benefit from living in the climate of Australia ; and it would be a hardship to prevent them taking advantage of the favorable conditions. {: .speaker-KLM} ##### Mr Maloney: -- In the earlier stages. {: .speaker-L1H} ##### Mr LIDDELL: -- Yes. What I suggest is that no emigrant should be admitted to Australia, who, in the opinion of a medical officer appointed by the State or by the Commonwealth, shows evidence that he is in the last stages of the disease. Indeed, it would only be doing such a patient a kindness to refuse him admission, because many patients, in an advanced stage, are sent here only to die far away from their homes amd friends. If an intimation were given ,:to the various ship-owners, shipping companies, and ship surgeons, that they would be called upon to repatriate any such patients whom they might bring to Australia, it would act as a deterrent. Later on. when we have the Department of Health, about which I spoke, it is .just possible that we may be able to proclaim certain districts in which these patients can be segregated until- thev are no longer capable of spreading the disease. {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr Groom: -- They would be under State control. {: .speaker-L1H} ##### Mr LIDDELL: -- To a certain extent they would. {: .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir John Forrest: -- Consumptives very frequently recover when they come to Australia. {: .speaker-L1H} ##### Mr LIDDELL: -- That is the reason why we ought not to prohibit all consumptive patients from entering the Commonwealth. We should discourage those who are in the advanced stage of the disease - a stage in which recovery is hopeless. But in all other cases, we ought not to object to their admission to the Commonwealth. I have pointed out the danger which exists, and also what I consider would provide a remedy. I would particularly urge upon the Minister the necessity for taking some further action than has hitherto been taken. The Immigration Restriction Act distinctly states that any person suffering from a dangerous disease may be prohibited from entering the Commonwealth. That is practically a mandate from the Government to put the remedy which I suggest into operation. Paragraph *d* of section 3 of the Act declares that any person suffering from " a contagious disease of a loathsome or dangerous character" may be refused admission. It is well known that phthisis is a particularly dangerous disease, and one which is communicable from one individual to another. It is a disease which is preventible, and for that reason everything should be done to prevent its introduction to Australia. All our legislation, I think, should be guided by scientists. Scientific men have proved that this disease is communicable from one person to another, and that it can be prevented. I feel very strongly upon this matter, and if my remarks this evening have the effect of inducing the Ministry to take action to, prevent its introduction to the Commonwealth, I shall feel that I have done something to advance the welfare of my country. {: #subdebate-19-0-s3 .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER:
Wide Bay .- The matter which the honorable member has brought before the House is a very important one. Notwithstanding the ravages of phthisis, I am exceedingly sorry that any remarks should be made in this Chamber which are calculated to discourage persons suffering from that disease, and who contemplate settling in Australia in the hope of effecting a recovery, from carrying out their intention. I know that the honorable member for Melbourne and the honorable member for Hunter do not desire to inflict an injury upon any individual. They imagine that, by denying the admission of certain persons into Australia, they will be safeguarding its interests. What do they fear? They fear that these persons may be admitted into the Commonwealth, and thus spread the disease. Let me say that during the first Parliament of the Commonwealth there sat. in this House an honorable member, representing the State of Queensland, who, at one time, was supposed to toe in the last stages of phthisis, and who today is alive and well, and rendering good service to his country. That gentleman determined to isolate himself from the world, and, accordingly, he went out some distance from Brisbane, where he could not procure professional attendance, and, -under our genial sunshine, was thoroughly restored to health. By having recourse to nature, and sleeping in the open air, he recovered so far as to be able to render good service in commercial circles and, later on, admirable service as a representative of the people. I admit that we should exclude persons suffering from " loathsome diseases," but the meaning of those words is, I think, quite clear to honorable members. I very much question whether we shall do ourselves any honour as a Parliament if we place an embargo upon the admission of any persons suffering from consumption if they come to Australia in the hope of being restored to health. I call upon the members of the medical profession to treat these patients when ' they arrive here. I quite agree that segregation is a proper thing in certain circumstances. {: .speaker-KLM} ##### Mr Maloney: -- They will be quarantined on their arrival. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr FISHER: -- They might be, in extreme cases. I would point out that, in the Immigration Restriction Act, provision is made to prevent the admission of persons who are likely to become a burden upon Australia, so that we need have no fear in that connexion. But I implore the members of the medical profession not to allow it to be said that, among the restrictions which Australia imposes upon the admission of persons to her shores, is one that individuals suffering from a disease which has been the despair of medical science in every part of the world shall lie excluded. If we wish to do our duty, let us establish sanatoria in suitable parts of Australia, and thus show that our love of humanity is greater than the mere protection of our material interests. {: #subdebate-19-0-s4 .speaker-KFJ} ##### Sir JOHN FORREST:
Swan -- I wish to call the attention of the AttorneyGeneral to the necessity of having the rates in the Tariff tabulated in such a way that honorable members will be able to compare the existing rates with the rates recommended by both sections of the Tariff Commission, and also with the rates proposed by the Government. It is desirable also that the volume of imports and their value should be stated. In the absence of this information we cannot properly deal with the Tariff. If it is not provided by the Government, honorable members will have to fossick it out for themselves, and that will involve an immense amount of trouble to them, besides which the information, when compiled, will probably not be so accurate as it would be if it were prepared by the Department. {: #subdebate-19-0-s5 .speaker-KLM} ##### Mr MALONEY:
Melbourne .- I am very much obliged to the honorable member for Hunter for having brought forward the question of the admission of consumptives into Australia. I am sure that when honorable members read his . remarks in *Hansard,* and the data which he has supplied, they will confess that they are under an obligation to hL_. Both the honorable* member and myself fully indorse every word which was uttered by the honorable member for Wide Bay. But I would point out to him that twenty or thirty years ago the treatment of consumption was not understood in the scientific way that it is to-day. Patients who were then regarded as having no hope 6? recovery would not be so regarded nowadays. I am sure that the honorable member for Hunter does not desire to keep out of Australia any person who by coming here would have a chance to recover his health. But we must remember that, much as the black plague is feared - and we do not hesitate to go to any length or to undertake any expenditure to keep it out of Australia - it has perhaps only one victim for every one thousand victims destroyed by the white plague. Consumption is the curse of our civilization. I think that the honorable members for Laanecoorie, Corangamite, and Hunter, all being medical men, might draft a provision for insertion in the Quarantine Bill, either here or in the Senate, allowing persons who come to Australia, hoping that our climate will restore them to health and strength, to land here, but requiring them to stay in certain places. If while there they showed signs of recovery, and ultimately became convalescent, we might ask them to stay. The finest region of the Mediterranean, one of the most -beautiful lands upon which God's sun shines, is permeated with the germs of tuberculosis, so that there is hardly a resident household there which has not lost one of its members from consumption. That having happened on the Riviera, it is not impossible that, unless we take steps to prevent it. Australia may in time become similarly infected. It is our duty to take every step to avoid that dread possibility. {: #subdebate-19-0-s6 .speaker-L1N} ##### Mr WILSON:
Corangamite .- I would be no party to drafting a clause to keep out of Australia persons suffering from consumption, although, as a medical man, I, like the honorable members for Hunter and Melbourne, know from experience the dangers of phthisis. I have met with it in various par.ts of theworld, and on the Riviera. But, at the same time, I agree with every word uttered by the honorable member for Wide Bay. I hope that, for ail time, it will be the policy of Australia to treat this disease on broad, humanitarian principles. {: #subdebate-19-0-s7 .speaker-KJ8} ##### Mr HUTCHISON:
Hindmarsh -- I disagree with the honorable members for Wide Bay and Corangamite. When the South Australian Parliament was considering a Health Bill, some years ago, I tried to provide for the isolation of consumptives, but there was great prejudice against interfering with them. If the subject were beine discussed to-day, there would be no difficulty about getting the legislation I then desired. I once travelled on a steamer on which a consumptive was coming to Australia for his health; but he left immediately, and was buried at sea. That man was a source of danger to every person on board the vessel. While we cannot but have the greatest sympathy with sufferers from this disease, we must safeguard the community from infection. It is true that occasionally consumptives are cured - that has happened to personal friends of mine - but we do not know how many deaths they are responsible for, while suffering from consumption. Medical friends with whom I have conversed on this subject have indorsed the views which I am now putting forward. I have had relatives who died of this dread disease. I am glad to say that I do not suffer from it, but my father died of it before I was born, and had I lived in a house in which the members of the family were suffering from it, I should in all probability have contracted it too. It is well known, as the medical members of theHouse will admit, that consumption is highly infectious. {: .speaker-KLM} ##### Mr Maloney: -- There are houses in this city in which any family is liable to catch consumption. {: .speaker-KJ8} ##### Mr HUTCHISON: -- Some time ago I knew of a family in which there was consumption. I urged one of them to leave the house in which they were living. He did so, and went to Western Australia, where to-day be is a strong, healthy man, although another member of the family is likely to die of this disease. While here and there a consumptive may recover, the disease may be communicated to hundreds by permitting infected persons to mix with their fellows. I trust that strong measures will be taken to safeguard the health of the community. As an instance of the carelessness which is now shown in dealing with consumptives, I may mention that a year or so ago a consumptive was carried from the Sydney express to the Adelaide express, and' died on the journey to Adelaide in a compartment which heprobably shared with another, and, perhaps, with three other passengers. We should do all we can to isolate consumptives, and discourage the immigration of diseased persons to this country. {: #subdebate-19-0-s8 .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM:
Darling DownsAttorneyGeneral · Protectionist -- This is an important matter in the interests of the general community, and bears on the question we have recently been discussing, as to how far the States should be left uncontrolled in the exercise of what are called their police powers for the protection of the public health. I was a member of a society whose object was to prevent the spread of tuberculosis, and the information wc collected revealed the need for action on the part of. the local authorities. We found that proper by-laws for the prevention of the spread of consumption were required by the railway, tramway and municipal authorities of Queensland, and we therefore took steps to bring the matter under their attention, with the result that the necessary regulations were framed. We also took steps to have proper instructions issued - in some districts to the school authorities, as well as to the local authorities - for the prevention of the disease. Considerable evidence was given before the Navigation Commission in regard to the travelling about of diseased persons, and very strong recommendations were made on the subject. *ti* was considered that the disinfecting of cabins was a very necessary step. This matter is an important one. I am perfectly sure that we all sympathize with the humane spirit which prompted the protest of the honorable member for Wide Bay. t think the honorable members for Hunter and Melbourne share that honorable member's feelings. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- I do not doubt that. {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM: -- But, from their point of view, the preservation of the health of many individuals at present possessing full physical vigour should be regarded as a sacred trust. {: .speaker-F4N} ##### Mr Fisher: -- It is not a question of the introduction of the disease. Unfortunately we have it here. {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM: -- Yes, but from their point of view, it may be spread by the admission to Australia of persons in the last stages of the disease. Humanitarian considerations would suggest that a person, possessed of means, wishing to come here in quest, of health, and to proceed immediately on landing to a sanatorium, should not be prevented. {: .speaker-L1H} ##### Mr Liddell: -- Under existing conditions he goes to the leading hotel of the port at which he lands. {: .speaker-KFK} ##### Mr GROOM: -- Conditions might be imposed. When persons suffering from disease, on coming to Australia, mingle with the community, they spread the germs of the disease from which they suffer wherever they go, and are a source of injury to the community. The question is one which should be dealt with by the Minister of External Affairs, and I shall direct his attention to the remarks which have been so well put by the honorable member for Hunter. As regards the statement made bv the right honorable member for Swan, I shall put his suggestion before the Minister of Trade and Customs, who, I am sure, desires to give all the information he can to assist honorable members in dealing with the Tariff. Question resolved in the affirmative. House adjourned at 10.37 P-m-

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 8 August 1907, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1907/19070808_reps_3_37/>.

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House of Representatives 8 August 1907

PRINTING COMMITTEE

Pro Chairman

QUESTION

POST AND TELEGRAPH CONVENIENCES

Mr FRAZER:KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr MAUGER:Postmaster-General · MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA · Protectionist

Mr McDONALD:KENNEDY, QUEENSLAND

Mr MAUGER:

CONVEYANCE OF MAILS

Mr JOHN THOMSON:COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · PROT; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr MAUGER:Protectionist

PAPER

QUESTION

FIELD ARTILLERY RANGES

Mr KELLY:WENTWORTH, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr EWING:Minister for Defence · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

Mr Kelly:

Mr EWING:

QUESTION

SALVATION ARMY SETTLEMENTS

Mr BOWDEN:NEPEAN, NEW SOUTH WALES

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:Treasurer · HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

QUESTION

PRINTING OF ELECTORAL ROLLS

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

Mr MAUGER:Protectionist

QUESTION

NEW HEBRIDES

Mr BOWDEN:for Mr. Johnson

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:Protectionist

UNDESIRABLE ALIENS: PROSECUTIONS

FIRE INSURANCE BILL

Second Reading

Mr FRAZER:Kalgoorlie

Mr Kelly:

Mr FRAZER:

Mr JOSEPH COOK:PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr FRAZER:

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

Mr FRAZER:

Sir John Forrest:

Mr FRAZER:

Mr Knox:

Mr FRAZER:

Mr Wynne:

Mr FRAZER:

Mr Hedges:

Mr FRAZER:

Mr Hedges:

Mr FRAZER:

Mr Hedges:

Mr FRAZER:

Mr Hedges:

Mr FRAZER:

Mr Hedges:

Mr FRAZER:

Mr Tudor:

Mr FRAZER:

Mr Hedges:

Mr FRAZER:

Mr Tudor:

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

Mr FRAZER:

Mr Kelly:

Mr FRAZER:

Mr Kelly:

Mr FRAZER:

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

Mr FRAZER:

Mr Kelly:

Mr FRAZER:

Mr HUME COOK:BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

Mr FRAZER:

Mr JOSEPH COOK:PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr FRAZER:

Mr FRAZER:

Mr JOSEPH COOK:PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr FRAZER:

Mr Kelly:

House of Representatives
8 August 1907

Mr FRAZER:
KALGOORLIE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr MAUGER:
Postmaster-General · MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA · Protectionist

Mr McDONALD:
KENNEDY, QUEENSLAND

Mr JOHN THOMSON:
COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES · PROT; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr MAUGER:
Protectionist

Mr KELLY:
WENTWORTH, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr EWING:
Minister for Defence · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

Mr BOWDEN:
NEPEAN, NEW SOUTH WALES

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Treasurer · HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

Mr MAUGER:
Protectionist

Mr BOWDEN:
for Mr. Johnson

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Protectionist

Mr FRAZER:
Kalgoorlie

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES · PROT; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr TILLEY BROWN:
INDI, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC

Mr TILLEY BROWN:
INDI, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC

Mr TILLEY BROWN:
INDI, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

Mr TILLEY BROWN:
INDI, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC

Mr TILLEY BROWN:
INDI, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC

Mr TILLEY BROWN:
INDI, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC

Mr TILLEY BROWN:
INDI, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC

Mr TILLEY BROWN:
INDI, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC

Mr TILLEY BROWN:
INDI, VICTORIA · ANTI-SOC

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906

Mr DUGALD THOMSON:
NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906