House of Representatives
9 November 1905

2^nd Parliament · 2^nd Session

QUESTION
- OUTRAGES ON JEWS IN RUSSIA
QUESTION
- ALTERATION OF THE TARIFF
QUESTION
- LONG SERVICE MEDALS
QUESTION
- FRIDAY SITTINGS
QUESTION
- CABLING OF CRICK.ET NEWS
QUESTION
- LETTER DELIVERIES IN STATE CAPITALS
QUESTION
- HOTEL TELEPHONE CALLS
PAPERS
QUESTION
- AUSTRALIAN-ENGLISH TELEGRAPH COMMUNICATION
QUESTION
- COMMONWEALTH TREASURY NOTES
JAPANESE : ADMISSION TO AUSTRALIA
PARLIAMENTARY WITNESSES BILL
- Second Reading
APPROPRIATION BILL
- Third Reading
SECRET COMMISSIONS BILL
SUGAR BOUNTY BILL
- Second Reading
EXCISE (SUGAR) TARIFF BILL
- Second Reading

Mr. Speaker took the chair at 2.30 p.m., and read prayers.

page 4859

QUESTION

OUTRAGES ON JEWS IN RUSSIA

Mr HIGGINS:
NORTHERN MELBOURNE, VICTORIA

– I wish to ask the Prime Minister, without notice, if he can ascertain whether the reports of outrages on Jews in Russia are true. If they are, is he prepared to move in this House a motion of abhorrence of the actions of the authors of the outrages, and expressing sympathy for the sufferers? I do not think that any expression of opinion will affect the perpetrators of the massacres, or those who administer affairs in Russia, but, if conveyed to the Chief Rabbi-

Mr SPEAKER:

– I ask the honorable and learned member not to argue the question.

Mr HIGGINS:

– Then I simply ask the Prime Minister if he is prepared to move such a motion, to be conveyed to the Chief Rabbi in London ?

Mr DEAKIN:
Minister for External Affairs · BALLAARAT, VICTORIA · Protectionist

– I hesitate to believe that such incredible atrocities as have been reported can have been perpetrated by any Christian people. The state of affairs in Russia is, at the present time, so chaotic that I suspect that themeans of obtaining intelligence as to what is proceeding there is even less trustworthy than usual. Therefore, until satisfied of the substantial truth of the statements which have been made, wemight, by carrying such a resolution as the honorable and learned member has referred to, place an undeserved imputation upon a great people who are in the throes of profound political and social change. I am sure that the whole Australian community wishes well to the Russian people in their struggles for constitutional liberty and freedom, and that the civilized world would join in reprobation of such horrible outrages as have been reported in the columns of the press. If the newspaper statements are established on some foundation making themsufficiently credible,I shall be prepared to consider whether anything said or done in Australia will help to bring to bear upon those who have been guilty of these fearful offences, the whole weight of civilized public opinion throughout the world.

Mr Higgins:

– Will the honorable and learned gentleman try to ascertain if the statements are true?

Mr DEAKIN:

– I will endeavour to do so.

page 4860

QUESTION

ALTERATION OF THE TARIFF

Mr CHANTER:
RIVERINA, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Has the attention of the Prime Minister been directed to the following telegram from Adelaide, which appears in this morning’s issue of the Melbourne Age : -

The Chairman of the Commission, Sir John Quick, made the following statement : - “ At a meeting of the Commission on 26th October last it was decided to suspend the sittings in Adelaide on 10th November and meet in Melbourne on nth November to consider progress reports. On 28th October a statement was published in the Ministerialist organ inMelbourne to the effect that the Prime Minister had announced that no Tariff amendment was possible this session. This has rendered it necessary for the Commission to reconsider its resolution of 26th October, and the following decision has been arrived at : - ‘ That in view of the announcement in the Age of 28th ult., namely, the Prime Minister says that no Tariff amendment is possible this session, it will be neither necessary nor desirable to suspend the sittings of the Commission in Adelaide on 10th inst., in order to meet in Melbourne on nth inst., to consider the question of progress’ reports, and the resolution passed on 2nd October is hereby rescinded.’ “

Is the Prime Minister prepared to correct that statement by informing the Chairman of the Commission that he has not said that no amendment of the Tariff will be made this session, and will he ask him to make some progress report which will give this Parliament an opportunity in the present session to prevent the destruction of some of our Austral?an industries?

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

– By an oversight, I did not see until ten minutes ago the statement which the honorable member has read, which, I am informed, appears in both morning newspapers. Ihave hurriedly endeavoured to discover what authority there is for the statement attributed to me, but the only articlein which reference is made to the Tariff upon which I have been able to place my hands is one appearing in the Age of the 28th October, in which the remarks about the possibility of dealing with it this session are general, and in no way attributed to myself. I have no recollection of having made the statement attributed to me, or any statement which could be construed as affecting the reports of the Tariff Commission. On the contrary, when addressing this House on the Appropriation Bill, no later than last night, I pointed out that the Government must keep an open door in regard to this matter on the chance that the Tariff Commission may make a recommendation of an. urgent character, requiring to be and capable of being dealt with this session. I have no recollection of having said anything to justify the remarks of the Chairman of the Tariff Commission, who is under a misapprehension. That misapprehension I will endeavour to remove.

Mr LONSDALE:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Does the Prime Minister think it possible to deal with Tariff questions this session with any chance of effecting anything?

Mr Carpenter:

– Yes, if the honorable member will stay away.

Mr LONSDALE:

– I shall not do that.

Mr DEAKIN:

– I do not anticipate that this session will afford much opportunity for dealing with Tariff questions generally, though it is possible that special questions may be dealt with.

Mr Lonsdale:

– What special questions ?

Mr DEAKIN:

-I cannot say, because I do not know what recommendations the Tariff Commission may make. The leader of the late Government foresaw the possibility of recommendations of a non-party and practical character, which could be dealt with without delay, being made by the Commission, and there are other possibilities.

page 4860

QUESTION

LONG SERVICE MEDALS

Mr WATKINS:
NEWCASTLE, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Will the VicePresident of the Executive Council ask the Minister of Defence to take into consideration the advisability of . giving long service medals to the membersof the Naval Militia on the same terms and conditions as govern the giving of medals to the members of the Volunteer and partially-paid forces? It appears that they have Hitherto been denied these medals, but I do not see why any distinction should be made.

Mr EWING:
Vice-President of the Executive Council · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

– I shall be very pleased to make a representation to the Minister of Defence on the subject.

page 4860

QUESTION

FRIDAY SITTINGS

Mr McDONALD:
KENNEDY, QUEENSLAND

-Is it the intention, of the Prime Minister to sit on Fridays after 4 o’clock in the afternoon?

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

– As I indicated last night, it may be necessary, for the transaction of necessary business, to ask the House to sit longer on Fridays and on other days.

Mr Wilks:

– Does the Prime Minister propose to sit after 4 o’clock next Friday ?

Mr DEAKIN:

What is the average number of calls per day on the telephone of the Grand Hotel, Melbourne, and of the Hotel Australia, Sydney.
How much is paid respectively by the Grand Hotel .and the Hotel Australia for the use of the telephone per annum?
How much is paid by the Government to operators alone for attending to the calls on the telephone for the Grand Hotel and for the Hotel Australia?

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
Protectionist

– The information is being obtained, and answers will be furnished as early as possible. I ask the honorable member to give notice for this day week.

page 4861

PAPERS

MINISTERS laid upon the table the following papers: -

Public Service Regulation No. 155, relating to allowances in the Postmaster-General’s Department, Statutory Rules 1905, No. 68.

Letter from the Premier of New South Wales to the Prime Minister on the Federal Capital Site, dated Sth November.

page 4861

QUESTION

AUSTRALIAN-ENGLISH TELEGRAPH COMMUNICATION

Motion (by Mr. King O’malley) proposed -

That Order of tEe Day No. 2 be made an Order of the Day for Thursday, 23rd November.

Mr. SYDNEY SMITH (Macquarie).I think that the honorable member should be prepared to go on with the debate upon this motion. I understand that this is the last time that the House will have an opportunity to deal with private business, and, as a very important principle is involved in the motion, it is desirable that honorable members should be permitted to discuss it this afternoon.

Mr KELLY:
Wentworth

– I understand that the honorable member for Darwin is prepared to withdraw the motion if any other honorable member is prepared to speak on the main question.. I think that it would be a pity to prevent honorable members from having an opportunity to refute the very able arguments of the honorable member for Barrier, so that as much light as possible may be thrown on the subject. While his speech appears on the pages of Hansard, no really prepared statement in reply has been published. The honorable member for Werriwa dealt with the matter historically, but he was necessarily speaking in an emergency, and without preparation. If the honorable member for Darwin will allow the discussion on the main question to proceed, I am willing, unprepared as I am, to address myself to it.

Mr Batchelor:

– Would it not be better to allow more time for preparation ?

Mr KELLY:

– Some honorable members appear to be only too anxious that the Order of the Day should be postponed. If they are afraid to meet criticism, I can understand their anxiety ; but, otherwise,, it is difficul to account for the desire for delay. Personally, I am prepared to discuss the motion at once.

Mr CONROY:
Werriwa

– It is highly undesirable that the Order of the Day, should be postponed, because there .are good reasons why a decision should be arrived at with regard to the policy outlined in the motion of the honorable member for Barrier. It is proposed to make such an. important departure from the policy that has hitherto been followed by the Commonwealth that a decision should not be delayed any longer than is necessary. Whilst the motion stands on the businesspaper, it may have the effect of hindering the development of wireless telegraphy, because, until persons outside are satisfied as to the intentions of this House, they cannot go forward with any enterprise. If any company were formed for the purpose of introducing a system of wireless telegraphy, they would at once be met by the objection that a proposal was now being considered by this House for acquiring control over the principal means of communication between Australia and the United Kingdom. The application of wireless telegraphy to the requirements of the people is being so rapidly extended that only yesterday we noticed a statement in the newspapers that wireless telegraphic communication was being established between different points of the dense forests of Brazil. For the reasons I have stated, I have no hisitation in opposing the proposed postponement.

Mr LEE:
Cowper

– I trust that the motion will be withdrawn, and that the debate on the main question will be at once proceeded with.

Mr SYDNEY SMITH:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT

– I presume that the honorable member for Barrier did not move his motion with the Object of humbugging the House or the country. I believe that the honorable member is sincere in his desire that the motion shall be carried to a practical conclusion, and I think it is important that it should be discussed at the earliest opportunity. Recently a conference met in London for the purpose of discussing the affairs of the Pacific Cable Company and its relation to the Eastern Extension Company ; and a recommendation was made that the businesses of the two companies shoul*d be 1 pooled.

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order. It is absolutely impossible for me to closely follow what the honorable member is saying whilst conversations are proceeding, in such a loud tone all over the House. I would ask honorable members to afford me an opportunity to listen to the honorable member who is now in possession of the Chair.

Mr SYDNEY SMITH:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT

– I look upon the main question as a matter well worth discussion. A great deal of correspondence has been published in the daily newspapers during the last few days with refer ence to me proposal to pool the businesses of the Eastern Extension Company and the Pacific Cable Company, and before anything is done in that direction, -honorable members should have an opportunity to express, their opinion. Personally, I think that it would be a mistake to enter upon any pooling arrangement upon the basis 0/ the present revenues of the respective companies, because it is well known that the Pacific’ Cable has not been worked in the past on the same business lines that have been adopted by the Eastern Extension Company.

Mr Mauger:

– I rise to a point of order. Is the honorable member in order in discussing the merits, of the motion of the honorable member for Barrier, instead of the question of postponing the Order of the Day?

Mr SPEAKER:

– Just now, I asked honorable members to discontinue their conversations so that I might have an opportunity of hearing the honorable member for Macquarie. The conversations have, however, been continued to such an extent that it has been almost impossible for me to follow the discussion. The honorable member for Macquarie will be in order in discussing only the motion for the postponement of the Order of the Day.

Mr SYDNEY SMITH:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT

– I am merely stating the reasons why I think it is desirable that we should proceed to the discussion of the main question at once. I view with alarm some of the proposals made for dealing with the business of the Pacific Cable, and I think that we should discuss the matter at the earliest possible moment. I intend to bring it under the notice of honorable members either in connexion with the discussion on the motion of the honorable member for Barrier, or during, the debate on the motion for the third reading, of the Appropriation Bill.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

page 4862

QUESTION

COMMONWEALTH TREASURY NOTES

Motion (by Sir John Forrest) proposed -

That Order of the Day No. 3 be made an Order of the Day for Thursday, 23rd November.

Mr KELLY:
Wentworth

– I regret very much that the Treasurer has not seen fit to make some attempt to answer the socialistic arguments nut forward bv the honorable member for Brisbane. We know that the right honorable gentleman is at heart bitterly opposed to the proposed scheme, but he has shown intense anxiety to avoid addressing himself to the question. An exceptionally good opportunity presents itself this afternoon for a discussion of the motion, with regard to which the intentions of the Government should be declared without delay. I venture to say that if the Order of the Day is postponed, the motion will not be dealt with this session ; and it appears to me that the Treasurer either regards it with contempt or is unable to answer the arguments advanced in support of it. I can conceive of no adequate reason for postponement. Personally, I think the motion should be struck off the business-paper, and I would support any movement in that direction. Under present conditions it will appear 10 the outside world that the anti-socialistic Treasurer is unable to answer the socialistic arguments put forward by the honorable member for Brisbane, or is averse to discussing them lest he may alienate the sympathies either of his masters in the Labour Corner, or of his masters in Bunbury.

Mr CONROY:
Werriwa

– When the honorable member for Brisbane submitted this proposal, I at once intimated that I could not support it. One of the most cogent reasons for refusing to adjourn the consideration of any item which appears upon the business-paper is that it is unfair, after honorable members have spent days in preparing themselves to discuss that subject, to suddenly proceed with the consideration of some other matter. That practice, I contend1, is a distinct breach of the privileges of honorable members, and if it be encouraged the incentive to study any question which may demand our consideration will be weakened, if it be not entirely removed. Therefore all motions of this character should be resisted. The honorable member for Brisbane, who submitted the proposal in regard to a Commonwealth note issue, has not asked for an adjournment of the debate upon it. The first portion of his motion reads -

That in the opinion of this House it is desirable that Commonwealth Treasury notes should be issued, on the lines of the Treasury notes issued by the State of Queensland.

Mr WILKS:

– No; but I .am about to argue that the Order of the Day should not be postponed, but that we should deal with and negative the motion as soon as possible, and thus, remove all public anxiety on the subject. I regret that the honorable member for Brisbane has permitted himself to be flaunted.

Mr Kelly:

– The Treasurer would not have flaunted any member of the Labour Party prior to the Western Australian elections.

Mr WILKS:

– I do not intend to pursue the subject further, but I should like to know why the Labour Party have deserted the honorable member for Brisbane at the eleventh hour.

Question - That Order of the Day No. 3 be postponed - put.

The House divided.

AYES: 33

NOES: 15

Majority 18

AYES

NOES

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

page 4867

JAPANESE : ADMISSION TO AUSTRALIA

Motion (by Mr. Brown) proposed -

That Order of the Day No. 4 be made an Order of the Day for Thursday, 30th November.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

page 4869

PARLIAMENTARY WITNESSES BILL

Second Reading

Mr FULLER:
Illawarra

– I move -

That the consideration of this Order of the Day be postponed till to-morrow.

I recognise the importance of this measure, and I am anxious to proceed with it, in accordance with a request by Senator Neild, in whose charge it was in the Senate. As, however, I do not agree with the Bill in its entirety, I have written to him in reference to it. Unfortunately he has been so ill that he has been unable to reply to my communication. I am, however, expecting aletter, from him this afternoon, and if it should come to hand, I shall be prepared to move the second reading of the measure to-morrow.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

page 4870

APPROPRIATION BILL

Third Reading

Motion (by Sir John Forrest) pro posed -

That the Bill be now read a third time.

– How could we do so, when the honorable member’s party was opposed to it ?

Mr Poynton:

– Were not the Estimates prepared by the late Government?

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– No Government ever brings down Estimates, and says, “ We “will stand by every line.” Once the House gets into Committee of Supply, the Estimates are the property of the Committee. Honorable members opposite, if they had wished to consider the finances of the country, should not have been dumb, as they were during the consideration of the Estimates. Those who claim to be the watch-dogs of the people were dumb while millions of pounds were being voted away. As to the other measures on “the Government programme, we, on this side, will try to give them our best consideration, in order to meet, as far as possible, the public interest, and to make them as little harmful as we can to the various interests of Australia. Whether this will occupy a long or a short time will depend on the nature of the proposals. I have already indicated that they are highly controversial, and I hope that the1 Government will not complain if they are debated at length. Nothing more will be attempted on this side than to give them reasonable consideration.. But the fact that the noticepaper is being choked at the end of the session will not deter us from doing what other sections of the House seem to have lost all thought of doing - paying attention to the needs and interests of the community.

Mr Conroy:

– There is not a quorum present. [Quorum formed.]

Mr ROBINSON:
Wannon

Council, I do not like the union label, but the difference between us ‘is that I shall vote against it, whilst they will record their votes in favour of it. I did not speak upon more than two occasions when the Estimates were under discussion, because I did not wish in any way to delay their progress. I think it is desirable that we should afford the other branch of the Legislature the fullest opportunity to consider the financial proposals of the Government. I cannot help coming to the conclusion that the greater number of the Bills now on the business-paper are like so many goods in a shop window, intended for mere display, and that the Government have no real intention to pass any measures except those which meet with the unqualified approval of those lucky honorable members who sit in the Labour corner.

Mr CROUCH:
Corio

– I think it is rather unfair to charge honorable members on this side of the Chamber with remaining dumb when important matters are under consideration. I have been endeavouring for a week past to bring under the notice of Ministers a most important matter, but whilst honorable members of the Opposition speak at such length, it almost becomes the duty of honorable members, who desire to see the business of the country transacted, to remain silent. In the Age of 7th November, an article was published relating to the new examination system which is being adopted in connexion with Australian Artillery commissions. It is alleged that this change has been made in consequence of the discussion which took place in this House upon my motion for the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the Defence Regulations. The Army Administration Board, after having laboured for several weeks, have produced a scheme which is said to be intended to remedy the evils complained of, and to give effect to the desire expressed by honorable members that every reasonable opportunity shall be afforded to rankers to obtain commissions. The Prime Minister, upon the 14th September, expressed the opinion that it was only right that professional as well as literary qualifications should have full weight attached to them in the examination. Now I desire to direct attention to the new proposals. The articles, after referring to existing anomalies, states that -

The new regulation - the first examination under which takes place in the week ending 16th December - alters all this materially, and dispenses with the special, confidential military board. The examination itself is divided into two parts, compulsory and voluntary, and the candidate who did not score heavily in literary subjects might, by special military and practical subjects, score over a purely “ college stuffed “ competitor.

That will be a very good thing if it is only carried out. The statement, however, appears to be all padding, because, when we examine ‘the proposed regulations, we can see what their effect will be. It is stated, further -

The compulsory subjects are mathematics (including the first three books of Euclid) English, geography, and English history, from 1850 to the present time, “ especially with reference to Australia and other British dependencies.” To pass candidates must get 5 in each subject. The voluntary subjects, 10 in number, include some of the old “compulsories,” like mensuration, French or German, logarithms, in which it is possible to get from 50 to 100 marks; and the following new subjects : - Military history and strategy, tactics, military engineering, military topography, military law. Text books : - “ Defence Acts “ and “ Commonwealth Military Regulations.”

It will be seen that the new subjects include military history, about which the ordinary artilleryman is likely to know little or nothing, and that the text books are to be the Defence Acts and the Commonwealth Military Regulations.

Mr Page:

– God help the ranker !

Mr CROUCH:

– That is the way in which it is proposed to help the ranker. All his knowledge of the practical working of guns is to go for nothing, and he is to be subjected to a purely theoretical examination. It is also stated in the article that the subjects are to be divided into obligatory and optional subjects, and that -

In order to count marks in a voluntary subject, says a footnote, candidates must obtain 5.5 in that subject. The marks so obtained will be added to those gained in the obligatory subjects. The candidate who obtains the highest total’ in the obligatory and voluntary will (provided he has “ qualified “ in the obligatory subjects”) receive the appointment.

Therefore, a candidate is to be examined in ten subjects, five of which are to be voluntary, and five obligatory, and the candidate who obtains the highest total in both classes of subjects will come out at the top of the tree. It was distinctly promised that the whole system should be revolutionized, and upon that understanding the proposal for the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the Regulations was defeated. I was certainly under the impression that an honest attempt would be made to give full effect to the intentions of hon orable members, but 1 am sadly disappointed with the new system of examination. It is necessary for candidates to obtain five marks in each of the compulsory subjects, which include mathematics, English, geography, and English history. Any ordinary college man would be able to pass in those subjects. The voluntary subjects include French, of which the ordinary artilleryman could scarcely be expected to know anything; German, with which they would be equally unfamiliar; and logarithms, with which it is extremely unlikely they would have any acquaintance. The whole of the voluntary subjects are not mentioned, but I imagine that they would include Latin and Greek, and I would ask whether the test proposed to be applied can be considered a fair one, so far as artillerymen are concerned. I do not propose to delay the passing of the Appropriation Bill, but I think that it is time that action was taken to secure fulfilment of the promises made by the VicePresident of the Executive Council. The only concession that seems to have been made is the abolition of the confidential board, before whom the men formerly had to appear. That is something gained, and possibly I may, by persistent effort, be able to improve the conditions for rankers of merit who desire to obtain commissions. Unfortunately, I am afraid that, instead of having effected a change for the better, I have placed the men in a less favorable position than previously, because, instead of some of the subjects being purely voluntary, as was previously the case, the marks gained in connexion with such subjects are now to count in the total, and will go a long way towards securing preference to candidates, other than men who are now rankers. I wish to direct attention to another matter of urgency in connexion with the military review to be held on Monday next. It appears to me that some of the military officers are deceiving the Minister. On 31st October I asked the Minister, in reference to the consecration of banners and the holding of a military religious service, whether he would state -

How many chaplains there are of the Baptist, Congregational, Jewish, Roman Catholic, and Unitarian denominations ?

The answer was -

Nineteen Church of England chaplains and five Presbyterians -

I did not wish to know anything about the ministers of these denominations, because

I was already aware that they were connected with the Forces. two Roman Catholics -

There is not one Roman Catholic chaplain in Victoria, to which State the question was obviously directed - one Methodist.

This answer is merely a pretence at frankness on the part of the Department. As a matter of fact, quite unnecessary information is given, and some of it is incorrect. Another question was -

Does he think the prayer set out is acceptable to the non-Christian members of the Forces?

The answer given was -

The Minister is not in a position to judge.

I contend that that is not a straightforward reply. I intend presently to read a portion of the prayer, so that honorable members may judge for themselves. Before doing so, however, I should like to relate a story in reference to the late President of the Transvaal. Upon one occasion Mr. Kruger was asked to open a Jewish synagogue in Johannesburg. He attended, and opened the synagogue with the statement -

In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ I declare this synagogue open.

Kruger may have called it consistency, but personally I regard that as blasphemy.’ In the prayer which it is proposed to use at the consecration of the banners, constant reference is made to “ Jesus Christ our Lord.” Can such a prayer be acceptable to Jewish members ofthe Forces, or should we compelthem to stay away ? Upon the 26th October last, the statement was made in this House that the prayer to be used would be acceptable to all denominations. Upon the 31st October, I asked if it would be acceptable to non-Christian members by reason of the constant references which it contained to “ Jesus Christ our Lord.” The Minister’s reply was that he was not in a position to judge. I do not think that that statement is true. I then asked -

Will only members of the denominations whose chaplains are represented at such service be expected to pay for its cost?

The reply given by the Minister was -

Members of the Forces do not pay for the cost of chaplains, except in an indirect way as taxpayers.

In consequence ofthat reply, which is quite inaccurate and misleading, it has been necessary for some chaplains to write to the newspapers stating that chaplains receive no remuneration whatever. I also asked -

Will the Minister of Defence permit members of the Permanent Forces, and such members of the Militia and Volunteer Forces as require such military parade for efficiency, to absent themselves from this religious ceremony ?

The reply was -

No members are obliged to attend this parade- in order to be classed as efficient.

I would point out that when a similar matter was discussed last year, the then Minister of Defence stated that he would permit members of the Permanent Forces to be absent from the ceremony if they had any objection to it. I regret that the present Minister does not intend to adopt an equally liberal attitude upon this matter. Last year, in consequence of the protestswhich were made by some of the churches, the members of the militia and volunteer forces were informed, immediately prior to the service, that if they did not choose to attend it, they were at liberty, during its progress,to parade in some other portion of the ground. Yet, despite what was ‘done upon that occasion, the Minister has supplied incomplete and inaccurate answers tomy questions. In order to be classed as efficient, a man in the militia has to attend a certain number of parades each year. If he does not, he is classed as non-efficient, and cannot draw his pay. It may be that some members of the Forces - if they cannot attend next Monday’s parade - will be classed as inefficient. Last year three dominations made a public protest against the use of a similar prayer. Archbishop Carr publicly warned the Roman Catholic members of the Forces not to attend the service if this form of prayer were adopted. Of my own knowledge, some men absented themselves from that parade on account of the prayer which was used, although they might have required to attend it in order to be classed as efficient. I do not think that we should create such a position as that. We ought not to maketheduty of any member of the Forces conflict with his religious principles.

Mr Conroy:

– How would the collision arise ?

Mr CROUCH:

– Last year, the members of certain denominations were warned not to attend the parade if this form of prayer was to be used. . Their duty to their country required their attendance; their loyalty to their church required them to absent themselves. It may seem a trifling matter, but there is a vital principle underlying it.

Mr Conroy:

– I quite agree with the honorable and learned member.

– No. Until MajorGeneral Hutton came to Australia, such prayers were never read. I also object to the new form of enlistment. That is another matter into which the Minister might with advantage inquire. Although a promise was made by the Minister of Defence in the Watson Government that the practice would be discontinued, a volunteer who wishes to enrol in the Forces is still asked, “What is your religion?” I omit the reply to that question in every enlistment form that I am called upon to fill up. Why should any man be asked to state his religion ? When this matter was brought under the attention of Major-

General Hutton, he replied that the reason for the question was that the authorities wished to know what form of burial should be accorded a member of the Forces when he died.

Mr McDonald:

– That statement isquite in keeping with the actions of the late G.O.C.

Mr CROUCH:

– These are slight matters, but I repeat that they touch vital principles.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I desireto make a personal explanation. Last evening, as well as upon several previous occasions, when referring to the question of the Federal Capital Site and the relations of the lateMinister of Home Affairs with the Government of New South Wales, the accuracy of my statements has been questioned. For instance, I have told the Housethat the late Minister of Home Affairs, when conducting negotiations with Mr. Carruthers, the Premier of New South Wales, made a definite promise that Hewould submit the proposals of that gentleman to this Parliament. I have had no communication with the honorable member for North Sydney, who is unfortunately absent this week, but this afternoon I received the following telegram from him : - .

Sydney Telegraph, 10th June, and doubtlessMelbourne papers, contains under Commonwealth notes one of several statements made by me, that New South Wales Capital resolutions would receive the consideration of the Federal Parliament.

That wire confirms the statement which I made, and which was perfectly within my knowledge when I made it.

Mr Deakin:

– It does not appear upon the files.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I propose to react the statement to which the telegram relates. It is as follows : -

It is the intention of the Government to submit the Federal Capital question at an early date to Parliament. The procedure will probably be by way of resolution, though this hasnot yet been determined. The proposal is toallow (he whole subject to be discussed, and theresolutions adopted by the New South WalesParliament to be considered.

Mr McDONALD:
Kennedy

Mr. Speaker, in the absence of a quorum. [Quorum formed.] I object to the Minister having power to prevent a person who feels aggrieved by his decision from appealing to” the law courts. Such a state of affairs is little short of a public scandal, and the sooner we amend the Act in this regard the better it will be for every one. It is, to say the least, remarkable that when a manufacturer makes to the Minister substantial representations as to an alleged grievance, the honorable gentleman, without any inquiry as to the real facts, is prepared to induce the Cabinet to at once take action. Without considering whether the farmers or any one else except Mr. McKay is affected by the harvester combine, the Ministry are prepared to introduce legislation dealing with the whole question. We know that Mr. McKay, who is responsible for the statements upon which the Ministry propose to take action, gave evidence before the Tariff Commission as to the values placed upon certain machinery imported into the Argentine Republic, and that the Government made inquiries which demonstrated that his assertions were absolutely false. The man must have made them with the knowledge of the falsehood, but in the hope that they would be acted on before the falsehood was found out.

Mr Fisher:

– The honorable and learned member is asserting that, in vulgar parlance, he was a liar.

Mr CONROY:

– If he had made the same statements in a Court of Justice, instead of before the Tariff Commission, he would have been charged with perjury, because they were statements made on oath. Ministers, however, acted on his representations. They did not think that he would dare to igo before the Commission, and deliberately make false statements there, so they telegraphed1 to the Argentine, and to Canada, and found that the state of affairs was quite different from what it had been represented to be. The honorable member for Gippsland, who was then Minister of Trade and Customs, and a protectionist—-

Mr Fisher:

– He was a member of the Government which the honorable and learned member supported.

Mr CONROY:

Mr CONROY:

Several Honorable Members. - Talk sense!

Mr CONROY:

– If the people upon a referendum declared that they were tired of the Union, just as the electors of Norway did the other day-

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order ! The honorable and learned member must confine his remarks to the question which is before the Chair.

Mr CONROY:

Mr WILKS:

– Yes, and there would be no readier way of prolonging the session than by opposing their restoration. If I were viciously inclined, I ‘could use such motions as an engine for obstruction. I wish it to be known, however, that we are speaking in the public interest, and hot for party purposes. If all the members of the Opposition were in the same frame of mind as I am, they would not allow the Appropriation Bill to leave this House until some satisfactory assurance has been given regarding the settlement of the Federal Capital Site question. I trust that when the measure reaches the Senate, the representatives of that State, whose special business it is to guard the rights of the State, will see that the measure does not become law until the important stages of a Bill for the settlement of the Federal Capital question have been dealt with in this House.

Mr WEBSTER:
Gwydir

Mr KELLY:

– Immediately after the last general election, the State Parliament, with a mandate of the people clearly before it, discussed the question of the Federal Capital Site, and came to the conclusion that the claims of the Commonwealth could not be acceded to.

Mr Watson:

– Does the honorable member think that the New South Wales Government approached the question in a diplomatic manner, or with any show of courtesy?

Mr KELLY:

State. Wherever I have gone I have found the same bitter resentment at the protracted delays on the part of this Parliament. Discontent ls general, and it is to ‘the interests of honorable members of this House not to permit that feeling to develop into hatred of the Federal tie, otherwise they will probably find their occupation gone. I do not wish to say anything more on this question. I should not have felt constrained to speak again but for the attitude assumed by the honorable member for Gwydir, who apparently is under the impression that this question demands the exercise of legal agility such as that undoubtedly possessed by the Attorney-General. It demands rather the display of statesmanlike qualities, and I tr ist that the Attorney-General and his colleagues will rise to the occasion.

Mr JOHNSON:
Lang

– I should not have spoken at this juncture but for the fact that the honorable member for Gwydir went out of his way to attack honorable members of the Opposition, and myself in particular, in a most unwarrantable fashion. No matter upon what subject the honorable member speaks, he seems to be unable to avoid imputing unworthy motives to, and casting unworthy reflections upon, members of the Opposition. There was not the slightest necessity to import personalities into the discussion of the Federal Capital question, or to challenge the right of the Opposition to criticise the Estimates. Every honorable member has a perfect right to express his views, and it certainly ill becomes the honorable member for Gwydir to take any exception to the action of honorable members on this side of the House. I protest against the charges made against the Opposition of having sold the people of New South Wales in regard to the Federal Capital Site, and of having engaged in intrigues to that end. No one is better versed in the art of intriguing than is the honorable member for Gwydir, and he should be the last person in the House to charge other honorable members with indulging in that practice. His peculiar tactics in connexion with the selection of the Federal Capital Site are a matter of notoriety. It is characteristic of the honorable member to hurl charges across the Chamber, and then to run away from any criticism which his remarks may evoke. I distinctly told him across^ the table that I intended to challenge the truth of his assertions. The honorable member asserted that I had spoken for three hou.cs on the Federal Capital question last evening. I did not occupy the attention of the House for that length of time, although I addressed myself to a number of subjects. I simply rise now for the purpose df enter-: ing my protest against the accusations of the honorable member, which no one knows better than himself were wholly without foundation. I intend to assert my right to criticise any measures which are placed before the House for its consideration, and I shall certainly not be influenced by the intimidating methods of the honorable member for Gwydir.

Mr KING O’MALLEY:
Darwin

– I should like to know whether certain honorable members representing New South Wales are in order in continually talking about secession, and threatening that New South Wales will withdraw from the Union unless we decide to establish the Federal Capital in a site of which it thoroughly approves. All this talk amounts to treason. Her late Majesty Queen Victoria signed the charter of the Commonwealth, it forms a part of the Constitution of the Empire, and when honorable members talk of secession they are acting as treasonably as did Jeff Davis, when he declared that’ the Southern States would secede unless the nigger was made the master of the United States. I think it is about time that some one called attention to the fact that some honorable members are continually threatening that New South Wales will secede, and thus dissolve the Union. It seems to me that some honorable members are acting as secession messenger boys from the New South Wales Parliament. I protest against these continual references to secession. The Commonwealth Parliament has selected a Capital Site, which the New South Wales Legislature declares that it will not grant us. Consequently, I hold that we should remain where we are. After all, New South Wales constitutes only one-sixth of the Commonwealth.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– It is no bigger than Tasmania ?

Mr KING O’MALLEY:

– Under the Constitution we are not bound to consult New South Wales upon the question of the Seat of Government at all. We do so only as a matter of courtesy. It is the duty of the Government to submit a Bill determining the Federal Territory, and to take steps for establishing the Capital within that territory. .Then if Mr.

Carruthers choosers to interfere they should put him in gaol, as Jackson did the Governor of Louisiana. That is what I would do.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Bill read a third time.

page 4899

SECRET COMMISSIONS BILL

Bill returned from the Senate, with amendments.

Motion (by Mr. Deakin) agreed to -

That the message be taken into consideration forthwith.

In Committee (Consideration of Senate’s amendments) :

Mr DEAKIN:
Minister of External Affairs · Ballarat · Protectionist

– In this Bill the Senate has made three amendments, or rather the same amendment has been made three times, viz., in clauses 4, 5, and 6. As the measure left this Chamber provision was made for the imposition of certain penalties. The maximum penalty was a fine of £500. In respect of corporations the Senate has increased that penalty to £1,000. I move -

That the Senate’s amendments be agreed to.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I do not intend to offer any objection to the amendments made by the Senate, but it is scarcely fair that we should be asked to agree to them instanter, without being afforded an opportunity of understanding their nature.

Mr Deakin:

– I should not have asked the Committee to deal with them immediately if anything more than verbal alterations had been involved.

Mr ISAACS:
Attorney-General · Indi · Protectionist

– As the Prime Minister has stated, the only effect of the Senate’s amendment is to increase the maximum penalty imposed by the Bill for a breach of its provisions by a corporation from £500 to £1,000.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– What is a “corporation “ under this Bill ?

Mr ISAACS:

– It is an incorporated company. In the form in which the measure left this Chamber, if a person accepted a secret commission he was liable to a penalty not exceeding £500, and also to two years’ imprisonment, either as alternative or as cumulative punishment. In the case of a corporation £500 was also fixed as the maximum pecuniary penalty. That amount has now been increased to £1,000. Evidently the Senate is of opinion that, as we cannot imprison a corporation we should impose a higher pecuniary penalty. Even in the case of a corporation, however, an individual who is a party to the offence is also liable to imprisonment.

Resolution reported ; report adopted.

Mr. JOSEPH COOK (Parramatta).- I desire to know whether this Bill will now be returned to the Senate without any recommendation from this House?

Mr SPEAKER:

– We shall, as the originating House, retain the Bill, but we shall intimate to the Senate that we have agreed to its amendments.

page 4899

SUGAR BOUNTY BILL

Second Reading

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Minister of Trade and Customs · Hume · Protectionist

– In moving -

That the Bill be now read a second time,

I propose to makemy remarks as concise as possible. I think that honorable members will admit that this measure is one of considerable importance, and I trust that after reasonable debate it will be allowed to pass.

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I hope that the Government will not imagine that if there is reasonable debate upon it, the Bill is being “ stone-walled.”

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– I do not think that we shall imagine anything of the kind. 1 recognise that honorable members will probably desire to discuss two or three of its clauses which in their opinion are of a contentious character. It will be recollected that the present Sugar Bounty Act will terminate at the end of 1906. The bounty now payableupon sugar which is produced exclusively by white labour is £2 per ton. Under the provisions of this Bill it is proposed to increase it to £3 per ton, and also to increase the excise duty to £4 per ton. Before the Bill was framed the Cabinet deemed it wise to obtain all the information that they could in reference to the sugar industry. Accordingly, they induced the Premier of Queensland to permit Dr. Maxwell - who understands this question perhaps better than does anyother man in Australia - to visit Melbourne for the purpose of making a report to the Government. I shall presently read from his report, because it contains some very valuable information - information which has influenced members of the Cabinet in the framing of these proposals. Dr. Maxwell was strongly in favour of the existing Act being extended for a term of seven years. The Cabinet, however, could not see their way to grant that extension, because the ‘Braddon section of the Constitution will expire in the interim, and when that provision terminates, a readjustment of the financial relations between the States and the Commonwealth will be rendered necessary. Consequently it would be unwise to extend the operation of the Act beyond the period provided for. Several provisions have been included in this Bill which I should not have embodied in it, but for the experience which I gained in administering the present Bounty Act when I was in office upon a former occasion and now. There are several things in the measure which may not have been expected - and perhaps in the estimation of some honorable members are a little dangerous. But I do not think that after they have heard my explanation, they will be of that opinion. Clause 2 contains a provision of a very exceptional character. It has come to my knowledge that a good many of the planters who have been employing black labour desire to substitute white labour at as early a date as possible. In the absence of this provision, if they wished to participate in the bounty, they would be required to destroy the cane at present in their plantations, and a delay of several years would elapse before they could secure any return from replanted cane, and by the employment of white labour. In the past, any cane planted by kanaka labour had to be destroyed, to the injury of the planter, and before he was able to participate in the bounty.

Mr Hutchison:

– A lot of white planters! had to submit to that condition.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– That may be so. But the honorable member must recognise that it is not wise to compel the destruction of cane which has been planted bv kanakas where there is an evident desire to employ white labour only in the future. The provision to which I refer reads - “White grown cue or beet” means, sugar cane or beet produced on a white plantation, and in the production of which white labour only has been employed after the first day of January one thousand nine hundred and seven, or for a period of twelve months immediately preceding the delivery thereof for manufacture…..

That is to say that if advantage be not immediately taken of this measure, an interval of twelve months must afterwards elapse before registration can take place and the bounty become payable. In the following lines we protect next year’s crops - or (in respect of the cane crop which will be cut in the year 1906) -

That is about eight or ten months hence - from the commencement of this Act to the delivery of the cane crop for manufacture.

– It will be sufficient to shut out sugar grown by black labour in Fiji and elsewhere, which might be imported. Clause 4 is rather an important provision. It sets forth that -

The occupier and the lessee of any plantation on which any sugar-cane or beet is produced shall be deemed to have been employed in the production of all sugar-cane or beet produced thereon.

This clause is designed to cope with the practice of subdividing and leasing estates to aliens - a practice which I am informed obtains in , Northern Queensland. These alien lessees do not actually work on the plantations, but employ white labour. In some cases aliens own sugar plantations, but although the word “owner” appeared in the draft clause, it has been struck out. Under this provision an alien who has leased land for sugar-growing purposes will be regarded as a coloured worker, and even if he has employed white labour in its cultivation, will not be able to obtain a bounty in respect of his crop. Strong representations have been made in regard to the desirability of such a provision as this, but the representatives of Queensland are more familiar with the intricacies of this phase of the question than I am. At this stage I propose to give merely an outline of the objects of the Bill. Clause 6 deals with the rates of bounty to which I have already referred ; while clause 7 relates to the sugar-giving contents of the cane or beet.

– I put a “number of questions to Dr. Maxwell, dealing with the kernel of the matter, and the first of these was -

For what period does it appear necessary to extend the system of paying bonus on whitegrown cane?

As I have already informed honorable members, Dr. Maxwell is strongly of ““opinion that the system should be extended for a further period of seven years, but the Government have come to the conclusion that it should be renewed for a period of five years. Dr. Maxwell furnishes the following important table relating to the areas registered for bonus, and the number of white cane-growers: -

Commenting on that table, Dr. Maxwell says -

It is seen that very notable increases have been made in the total number of White Growers, and in the gross areas registered to earn the bonus. The full results of the operations of 1905 are not yet to hand, but the figures given under this year in the table indicate that these increases are steadily progressing. The table shows, further, that the increases in the number of White Growers, and of registered areas, have transpired mainly in the Southern and Central Districts, and that a small relative progress has been made in the tropical north. The total number of all cane-growers in Queensland at the beginning of this year was 3,422. The number of White Growers, according to the latest official figures, is 2,681, or 78 per cent, of the whole.

Mr Poynton:

– The sugar-cane grown by white labour is only about 35 per cent, of the whole.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– With regard to the extension of the bonus, Dr. Maxwell1 says -

An extension of the bonus for a period of seven years can claim the greatest measure of support; providing, as it appears, the highest mean of security and advantage to all interests concerned. On the maturing of such further period, the situation would again come under consideration.

Mr Henry Willis:

– He does not seemto think that the bonus can come to an end even then. ,

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– He does not express an opinion on that point. He was strongly in favour of making the period seven years ; but the Government do not feel justified in agreeing to so long a period. He was next asked -

Should the bonus continue to be paid in its present amount, or are there reasons for a revision ?

Without quoting in detail his reply to that question!, I may say that he is favorable to the proposal of the Government, which is to increase the bonus by £1, and the excise by £1. The third question put to him was -

Should a reducing scale be adopted, with_a view to the gradual diminution and extinction of the bonus?

His answer to that question is -

The measure of achievement has not yet been reached that would render the adoption of a !’ reducing scale “ applicable to the situation -at this time. To enforce its adoption prematurely can undo the present success, and threaten the future promise that waits upon the experiment.

He is opposed to a gradual reduction, and I commend to honorable members this part of his report, because I have no doubt that there will be some debate on the question, whether it will be wiser to pay the full bonus up to the end of the fiveyear period, or to gradually reduce the amount. The question was discussed at length in “Cabinet before it was decided to adopt the suggestion to pay the full rate during the whole period. Dr. Maxwell was next asked -

Are there reasons for a revision of the present rate of import duty ?

He is against increasing the duty. He says-

The present rate of import duty is £6 per ton, as compared with a duty of approximately ^£9 per ton upon foreign sugars entering the United States of America, in which country no excise upon homegrown sugars exists. The present import duty- of £6 on foreign produced sugars entering Australia, although low when compared with rates of duty operating in some other countries, appears to be adequate for its purpose.

We have left’ the duty as it is. The fifth question put was -

What are the foreseen effects of an increase of the excise duty?

On that subject, Dr. Maxwell says -

If an increase in the excise were made, with a corresponding increase in the bonus upon white-grown sugar, the position of the producer of white-grown cane will remain unaltered. But the protection of the black grower will be lowered in the exact proportion that the excise is raised.

With a view to still further stimulate the production of sugar bv white labour, the Government have determined to increase the excise duty. The sixth question put to Dr. Maxwell was -

What are the main factors which govern the cost of sugar to the consumer, and what modifications are possible that can lower the cost?

In his reply to that question, he says -

The cost of and the profit from refining has an essential bearing not only upon the cost of the finished article to the consumer, but also upon the selling value of raw sugar, and upon the position of the producer in the field. The refining business, however, could, with greater advantage, be kept separate from the present considerations, and be made a matter of special inquiry.

Mr Hutchison:

– The Colonial Sugar Refining Company has a big say in that.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– Yes. I cannot quite understand why the price of sugar grown in Australia should be practically the same as that of imported sugar. We are approaching the time when we shall produce enough sugar for our own demands, and I hope that when we do so the price of locally-grown sugar will be much less than the price of imported sugar. Of course, the excise duty helps to keep up the price of locally-grown sugar, but it should not be as high as it is.

Mr Wilkinson:

– That is owing to the monopoly of the Colonial Sugar Refining Company.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE:

– Possibly so. The price is fixed at £10 or £15, or some other amount, and apparently no one can say “nay” to the Colonial Sugar. Refining Company. Question 7 reads as follows : -

Can any leading modification be made in the regulations governing the administration of the bonus legislation, which could contribute to its adoption more rapidly, and upon a more extensive scale?

Dr. Maxwell enters into considerable detail in his reply. He says -

It is required that the fundamental regulation governing the eligibility of land to register to earn bounty shall be modified and broadened. It is necessary that areas that have not been yet brought under white conditions shall not be at any time prevented from doing so by restrictive - regulations. It is also to be advised that provision shall be made for the re-registration of areas which were placed under white conditions, but which have lapsed, and become again ineligible for earning -bonus. These primary registrations were made in good faith, and the lapses have been due, in the most part, to the unripeness of the conditions necessary to the change from black to white production. Unless such modifications in the administration are made, the progress of the bonus legislation will be blocked by its own provisions.

Question 8 reads -

What are summarily the lines upon which the substitution of white for coloured labour can be induced, and sugar production in Australia be placed most expeditiously and permanently upon a white basis, without risk or diminution of the industry ?

The answer is -

In the foregoing considerations it has been seen that the legislation providing for the white production of sugar has made a very practicable and notable achievement during the short period that it has been in operation, and it is indicated that progress continues steadily to be made.’ In the year 1901 there were 2,610 cane-growers in Queensland. At the beginning of the current year there were 3,422 growers, and 2,681 of this total, at this date, are registered to grow cane under the white conditions. These white growers have not registered all of their lands suitable for growing cane ; neither have they earned the bonus upon the whole that was registered. Nevertheless, 78 per cent. of the total number of cane-growers have placed themselves upon the lines which lead to an ultimate white basis of the industry.

I do not know that there is any necessity for me to quote any further from Dr. Maxwell’s report. I have only done so to the extent necessary to emphasize my remarks. It is estimated that at the present time there are 7,265 kanakas in Queensland, and 14.505 aliens other than kanakas. These figures show that we must so shape our legislation as to prevent aliens from taking the place of the kanakas. It is with this view that the present Bill has been introduced. I wish to quote a few figures to indicate to honorable members the changes that have taken place in the conditions of the industry during the past few years. The following table shows the number of persons employing white and black labour respectively upon sugar plantations : -

The next statement shows the number of acres under cultivation, and distinguishes between the areas cultivated by white and black labour respectively - It will be seen that, whilst the area under cultivation by white labour has been increased, so also has the area under black labour. The next table relates to the sugar production, a distinction being made between that being grown by white and that grown by black labour - Therefore, although the production of .black sugar has increased, the production of white-grown sugar shows a still larger expansion. That change has been brought about by the legislation we have passed. The quantity of sugar upon which the bounty has been paid, and the number of persons employed, is indicated by the following tables : - The number of persons estimated to be employed in sugar growing in New South Wales and Queensland is indicated below - The amounts of import duty collected on sugar in the various States, in. the year 1900, prior to Federation, are shown in the following table: - {: .speaker-L1D} ##### Mr Henry Willis: -- The figures which the Minister has quoted, relate to the Customs duty which was collected prior to Federation ? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- They refer to the import duty - not to the Excise. I have here a table setting forth the consumption of sugar, the amount of Excise received, and of bounty paid by each of ' the States : - It must be understood that the amount collected by way of Excise, is based upon the consumption of sugar *per capita.* I have also had prepared in the form of a table an estimate of the quantity of white-grown sugar that will be produced from 1907 onwards. The estimate is based upon an excise duty of £4 per ton, and upon a bounty of £3 per ton. From 1907, until 191 1, it is estimated that the annual consumption of sugar within the Commonwealth will be approximately 200,000 tons. This will represent, by way of excise, a sum of £800,000 per annum. The esti mated production of white-grown sugar in 1907 is set down at 107,000 tons; in 1908, at 122,500 tons; in 1909, at 138,000 tons ; in 1910, at 153,500 tons; and, in 1911, at 169,000 tons. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- From where did the Minister obtain those figures? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- They are based upon information which we obtained from Queensland, and from data which was available in the Customs Department. {: .speaker-L1D} ##### Mr Henry Willis: -- They are based on the increased production which has taken place during the past few years. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- They are merely in the nature of an estimate, and are based upon normal years. The amount which will be payable by way of bounty in 1907 is estimated at £321,000; in 1908, at £367,000; in 1909, at ,£414,000; in 1910, at £460,500; and in 1911, at £507,000. The net revenue for 1907 is estimated at £479,000; in 1908, at £432»S00; m I9°9> at £386>000; in 1910, at ^339.5°°' andin 1 911, at £293,000. This is the best estimate that the officers of the Depart; ment have been able to furnish. {: .speaker-KYD} ##### Mr Poynton: -- Approximately, it will be £100,000 less than the nef amount now received. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- That is so. The following is a return showing the quantity of sugar imported into each State during the years 1896 to 1905, and dealing separately with the foreign and Australian article: - {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I suppose that the importations of foreign sugar into New South Wales this year have been mostly from Fiji. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- I think so. It may fairly be assumed that the. importations of foreign sugar into New South Wales this year will total about 5,000 tons, on the basis of figures up to May last. {: .speaker-KYD} ##### Mr Poynton: -- What was the consumption of Australian sugar in that State? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- For the first five months of this year it amounted to 6,872 tons. {: .speaker-KYD} ##### Mr Poynton: -- A mistake must have been made «in the return, because 45,555 tons of Australian-grown sugar were consumed in New South Wales during 1904. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- It may be that a large quantity was introduced and stored towards the close of the year. {: .speaker-KDR} ##### Mr Ewing: -- If we are growing more sugar locally, we, must be importing less. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- That is so. I have no doubt that the importations of foreign sugar into New South Wales this year will not amount to much more than 5,000 tons. The total quantity of Australiangrown sugar consumed in the Commonwealth last year was 121,817 tons, whilst 45,862 tons of foreign-grown sugar were imported. It is estimated that we shall grow nearly sufficient this year to satisfy our own requirements, and, whilst I cannot forecast what the actual importations will be, I am satisfied that they will be very small. I have endeavoured to place the fullest information before the House in regard to this question, and the preparation of the tables I have read has involved considerable labour. I feel that the amendments proposed to be made, by means of this Bill, in the original Act will be found to work beneficially, and that they will render it unnecessary for the Minister to resort to illegalities in order that justice may he done in cases where the spirit, if not the letter, of the law has been observed. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- I think that the honorable gentleman promised to take action in regard to the demand for a drawback oh the sugar used in jam. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- It is true that I promised to consider that question, but the matter is one that could not be dealt with in the Bill now before us. The honorable member introduced a deputation from jam manufacturers and others, who put their complaints before me, and I may say that, although a determination has not yet been arrived at, the matter has been discussed by the Cabinet. One of the requests made by the deputation was that a drawback should be allowed in respect of the sugar used in jam for home consumption. That was a proposal which I could not at present entertain. {: .speaker-KYD} ##### Mr Poynton: -- If it were complied with, it would result in a serious loss of revenue. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- That is so. {: .speaker-KIC} ##### Mr Lonsdale: -- I do not think that they preferred such a request. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- They certainlv did. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- What about the drawback in respect of the sugar used in jam. for export? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- At the present time a drawback of five-sixths of the duty paid on sugar so used is allowed. {: .speaker-F4S} ##### Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917 -- The remaining £1 per ton makes all the difference. {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- I know that that is the claim made by the jam manufacturers. The officers of the Customs Department maintain, however, that the quantity of sugar used in the manufacture of jam is mot as large as the manufacturers assert, and' they hold that the granting of a drawback amounting to five-sixths of the duty is a faircompromise. 1 have discussed the matter with the ComptrollerGeneral, as well as with some of my colleagues, and I fail to see why, if the sugar is used as claimed by the manufacturers, they should not be allowed the full rebate in respect of it. Instructions have been given for further tests to be made as to the sugar contents of the jam, and drawback will be allowed on the full quantity used. {: .speaker-KYD} ##### Mr Poynton: -- If the Minister decides to grant a drawback in respect of the sugar used in jam intended for home consumption, will he consider the position of the housewives who make their own preserves? {: .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE: -- It would be rather a difficult matter to ascertain the quantity of preserves made by every housewife. At any rate, I do not think there is any occasion to discuss the subject at the present moment, because it is financially out of the question. If there is any point which I have not touched on, in regard to which honorable members wish for information, I should like to be reminded of it. I have rapidly gone through a mass of figures, showing the effect of our legislation up to the present, and honorable members will find the report of **Dr. Maxwell** a very valuable document, the perusal of which will, I think, cause them to come to the same conclusions as have prompted the proposals of the Government. Debate (on motion by **Mr. Joseph** Cook) adjourned. {: .page-start } page 4908 {:#debate-15} ### EXCISE (SUGAR) TARIFF BILL {:#subdebate-15-0} #### Second Reading {: #subdebate-15-0-s0 .speaker-KIN} ##### Sir WILLIAM LYNE:
Minister of Trade and Customs · Hume · Protectionist -- I move - That the Bill be now read a second time. I do not think that there is any occasion for me to make a lengthy speech on this Bill, because it is intimately connected with the Sugar Bounty Bill, and its intention was explained by me in moving the second reading of that Bill. We propose to increase the excise on sugar to 4s. a cwt., or £4 a ton. Debate (on motion by **Mr. McCay)** adjourned. House adjourned at 11. 15 p.m.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 9 November 1905, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1905/19051109_reps_2_28/>.

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House of Representatives 9 November 1905

QUESTION

OUTRAGES ON JEWS IN RUSSIA

Mr HIGGINS:NORTHERN MELBOURNE, VICTORIA

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr HIGGINS:

Mr DEAKIN:Minister for External Affairs · BALLAARAT, VICTORIA · Protectionist

Mr Higgins:

Mr DEAKIN:

QUESTION

ALTERATION OF THE TARIFF

Mr CHANTER:RIVERINA, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr DEAKIN:Protectionist

Mr LONSDALE:NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr Carpenter:

Mr LONSDALE:

Mr DEAKIN:

Mr Lonsdale:

Mr DEAKIN:

QUESTION

LONG SERVICE MEDALS

Mr WATKINS:NEWCASTLE, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr EWING:Vice-President of the Executive Council · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

QUESTION

FRIDAY SITTINGS

Mr McDONALD:KENNEDY, QUEENSLAND

Mr DEAKIN:Protectionist

Mr Wilks:

Mr DEAKIN:

Mr Wilks:

QUESTION

CABLING OF CRICK.ET NEWS

Mr THOMAS:BARRIER, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:Postmaster-General · EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

QUESTION

LETTER DELIVERIES IN STATE CAPITALS

Mr HUTCHISON:HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:Protectionist

QUESTION

HOTEL TELEPHONE CALLS

Mr THOMAS:

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:Protectionist

PAPERS

QUESTION

AUSTRALIAN-ENGLISH TELEGRAPH COMMUNICATION

Mr KELLY:Wentworth

Mr Batchelor:

Mr KELLY:

Mr CONROY:Werriwa

Mr LEE:Cowper

Mr SYDNEY SMITH:MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr SYDNEY SMITH:MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT

Mr Mauger:

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr SYDNEY SMITH:MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT

QUESTION

COMMONWEALTH TREASURY NOTES

Mr KELLY:Wentworth

Mr CONROY:Werriwa

Mr Mauger:

Mr CONROY:

Mr Thomas:

Mr CONROY:

Mr Mauger:

Mr CONROY:

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr CONROY:

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr CONROY:

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr CONROY:

Mr Mauger:

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr CONROY:

Mr SPEAKER:

Mr CONROY:

Mr Kelly:

Mr Mauger:

Mr CONROY:

House of Representatives
9 November 1905

Mr HIGGINS:
NORTHERN MELBOURNE, VICTORIA

Mr DEAKIN:
Minister for External Affairs · BALLAARAT, VICTORIA · Protectionist

Mr CHANTER:
RIVERINA, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

Mr LONSDALE:
NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr WATKINS:
NEWCASTLE, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr EWING:
Vice-President of the Executive Council · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

Mr McDONALD:
KENNEDY, QUEENSLAND

Mr DEAKIN:
Protectionist

Mr THOMAS:
BARRIER, NEW SOUTH WALES

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
Postmaster-General · EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES · Protectionist

Mr HUTCHISON:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
Protectionist

Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN:
Protectionist

Mr KELLY:
Wentworth

Mr CONROY:
Werriwa

Mr LEE:
Cowper

Mr SYDNEY SMITH:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT

Mr SYDNEY SMITH:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT

Mr SYDNEY SMITH:
MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT

Mr KELLY:
Wentworth

Mr CONROY:
Werriwa

Mr LONSDALE:
New England

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr HUME COOK:
BOURKE, VICTORIA · PROT

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr WILKS:
Dalley

Mr KELLY:
Wentworth

Mr KENNEDY:
Moira

Mr WILKS:
Dalley

Mr SKENE:
Grampians

Mr LONSDALE:
New England

Mr CONROY:
Werriwa

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr FULLER:
Illawarra

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

Mr JOSEPH COOK:
PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917