House of Representatives
11 July 1919

7th Parliament · 2nd Session

  1. House of Representatives
  2. 7th Parliament
  3. 1919

Mr. Speaker (Hon. W. Elliot Johnson) took the chair at 11 a.m., and read prayers.

page 10649

QUESTION

RETURNING TASMANIAN TROOPS

Mr LAIRD SMITH:
DENISON, TASMANIA · ALP; NAT from 1917

– Some time ago troopships from the Old Country were allowed to enter the port of Hobart, in order to land Tasmanian troops. I desire to ask the Acting Minister for the Navy whether it is not practicable to. again revert to that system?

Mr POYNTON:
Honorary Minister · GREY, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · NAT

– The troopships are under Imperial regulations, and I am afraid that the honorable member’s proposal cannot be carried out. I shall, however, get into consultation with the Comptroller of Shipping with the object of seeing whether it can be adopted.

page 10649

QUESTION

WHARF LABOURERS’ DISPUTE

Report of Royal Commission

Mr TUDOR:
YARRA, VICTORIA

– Will the Acting Prime Minister state whether the Government has yet received through the GovernorGeneral the report of Mr. Dethridge, who was appointed a Royal Commission to inquire into the conditions obtaining in relation to the picking up of waterside workers on the Melbourne wharfs ?

Mr WATT:
Treasurer · BALACLAVA, VICTORIA · NAT

– Yes.

Later :

Mr TUDOR:

– Will the Acting Prime Minister state when it is intended to lay on the table of the House the report of the Royal Commission on the conditions of employment of the waterside workers on the Melbourne wharfs, and what action the Government intends to take upon that report?

Mr WATT:
NAT

– The report of the Commissioner will be laid upon the table of the House after the Cabinethas had an opportunity to consider it.

page 10649

QUESTION

SANITARY ARRANGEMENTS IN THEATRES

Mr KELLY:
WENTWORTH, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Will the Minister for Trade and Customs consult his officers as to whether or not insufficient air space and the sanitary arrangements make the ‘ theatres, behind the scenes, a focus of the influenza outbreak, and, in the event of his officers advising him in that direction, will he inform the State authorities of the necessity for reform in that respect ?

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– I will have the matter inquired into, and let the honorable member know the result.

page 10649

QUESTION

COMMONWEALTH SHIPS

Order for Construction in England.

Mr HIGGS:
CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND

– In regard to the report that the Prime Minister (Mr. Hughes) has placed orders in England for the construction of three vessels of about 20,000 tons each, I desire to ask the Acting Minister for the Navy whether there is any necessity for secrecy in the matter?

Mr Atkinson:

– There has been no secrecy.

Mr HIGGS:

– The Minister said the other day that he was not prepared to give any information. I would ask him whether there is any reason for secrecy, and whether he will be good enough to furnish us with details as to the order, which must represent a very considerable outlay?

Mr POYNTON:
NAT

– At a very early date the Acting Prime Minister (Mr. Watt) will make a statement to the House in regard to the whole of our shipbuilding activities. I am not able to give the honorable member all particulars, but I may say that portion of the statement published in the press is not correct.

page 10649

QUESTION

PEACE CELEBRATIONS

Sittings of the House.

Mr HECTOR LAMOND:
ILLAWARRA, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Has the Acting Prime Minister taken into consideration the position of representatives of other States with regard to the Peace Celebrations, and, if so, will he state what is the intention of the Government in regard to the sittings of the House next week? Is it proposed that we shall meet next Tuesday and adjourn on Thursday until the following week, or are we to get away next Thursday without a special sitting on Tuesday ? It will be impossible for honorable members to take part in the celebrations in the other States unless they can leave here on Thursday evening next.

Mr WATT:
NAT

– In the pressure of business during the last week or more, I have not had time to finalize the matter, but it has not escaped my attention. I hope to be able to deal with it some time to-day, and to inform Inter-State members before they leave for their homes what course the Government proposes to take.

page 10650

SINKING OF THE EMDEN

Criticism of Captain Glossop

Mr POYNTON:
Acting Min ister for the Navy · Grey · NAT

– (By leave.) - I notice that duringmy recent absence in Sydney the honorable member for Melbourne Ports (Mr. Mathews) made some very grave reflections on Captain Glossop, and to be charitable the only conclusion I can come to is that he was speaking without full knowledge of the facts. The honorable member criticised adversely Captain Glossop’s handling of H.M.A.S. Sydney in the duel with the German light cruiser Emden. In the first place, I wouldpoint out that the loss of life on the Sydney was small. Out of a complement of 400, three men were killed and fifteen wounded. The best Naval opinion is that the action against the Emden was ably and skilfully fought. The officer most exposed to the enemy’s fire was Captain Glossop himself, as shown by the fact that the first casualty occurred beside him on the bridge. The Admiralty’s ‘ appreciation of his work was shown by the conferring on him, of the Most Honorable Order of the Companion of the Bath. I trust that no more of these unwarranted attacks will be made upon a distinguished officer, who by his prompt and efficient action made the name of Australia ring throughout the civilized world by ridding the Empire of a raider which had done millions of pounds worth of damage.

Mr Mathews:

– I shall enlarge upon the subject at the first opportunity. There should not have been any casualties on the Sydney.

Mr POYNTON:

– I notice also that while the honorable member was speaking the honorable member for Wilmot (Mr. Atkinson), by way of interjection, said that Captain Glossop had been disrated. In this instance also I feel sure that the honorable member spoke without full knowledge of the facts; otherwise he would not have made such a statement. Captain Glossop has not been disrated on any occasion in connexion with this matter.

Mr ATKINSON:

– By way of personal explanation, I desire to say that in using the word “ disrated,” I was under the impression from statements that had been frequently made that Captain Glossop had been disrated, or had, at least, teen deprived of the command of the Sydney, because, in the engagement in question, he took his vessel too close to the Emden. I was led to interject as I did, because I thought that the honorable member for Melbourne Ports (Mr. Mathews) in his references to Captain Glossop, was not treating the Government fairly. He appeared to me to be endeavouring to show that the Government had promoted Captain Glossop to a higher position, and that his treatment was different from that extended to men in the ranks. I am very glad to learn that Captain Glossop was not disrated.

Mr MATHEWS:

– I also desire to make a personal explanation. The Acting Minister for the Navy (Mr. Poynton) has not explained the actual situation. On the occasion to which he has referred, I was trying to distinguish between the punishment meted out to the lower-paid men of the Australian Navy, and the treatment of those of the highly-paid ranks. The authorities which the Minister has quoted are not the only ones that might be cited with regard to Captain Glossop’s handling of the Sydney in the encounter in question. It is well known that the Sydney, with its guns of longer range and greater calibre than those of the Emden, should have been able to engage her without coming within her range of fire-

Mr Sampson:

– On. a point of order,-

Mr SPEAKER (Hon W Elliot Johnson:
LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES

– Order! The honorable member for Melbourne Ports, instead of making a personal explanation, is now debating the subject-matter of Captain Glossop’s handling of the Sydney in the engagement with the Emden. That is outside the scope of a personal explanation.

Mr Mathews:

– Well, if I am to be blocked now, I will raise the question in another form.

Mr SPEAKER:

-I would remind honorable members that, under cover of making apersonal explanation, it is not permissible to debate the subject-matter that hasbeen raised. It is, however, permissible to correct a misstatement or misunderstanding .

Mr Mathews:

– Then, Mr. Speaker, you ought not to have allowed the Minister to speak as he did.

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order ! The Minister obtained leaveto make, not a personal explanation, but a statement, which is an entirely different matter. The honorable member, if he wishes to make a statement, should ask for leave of the House to do so.

Mr Mahony:

– It was a very one-sided statement.

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order !

Mr MATHEWS:

– (By leave.)- I desire to state that I did not attack Captain Glossop, although I should have done so. I simply drew a comparison between the treatment of officers and the treatment of men in the lowerranks. I may say, however, that at the time the columns of the newspapers were teaming with condemnations of Captain Glossop in connexion with the Sydney-Emdcn fight; in fact, the suggestion was made that he ought to be court martialled. If the Minister thinks that I have done an injustice to this officer, let him be tried by some court rmartial. He will then see whether Captain Glossop isnotcondemned forthe manner in which he fought his ship. The

Sydney had greater speed than the Emden, her guns were immeasurably superior, and she should not have lost one man, or have had one plate tarnished in the fight.

page 10651

QUESTION

SEAMEN’S STRIKE

Importation of Coal

Mr BOYD:
HENTY, VICTORIA

– In view of the decision of the IndustrialDisputes Committee of the Melbourne Trades Hall Council to induce the coal miners to come out on strike, will the Acting Prime Minister inquire whether he can obtain from India or Japan coal for the use of industries here, and so keep employed the men engaged in them ? Failing that, will he permit private enterprise tobring coal here, and to distribute it to the best advantage?

Mr WATT:
NAT

– I appreciate the anxiety of the honorable member, and many others, to discuss at this stage the strike position in all its bearings, but since the struggle may be a very serious and protracted one, I should in future prefer that notice be given of all questions relating to it.

page 10651

QUESTION

COURT MARTIAL ON H.M.A.S. AUSTRALIA

Mr WEST:
EAST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

– In view of the strong feeling prevailing throughout Australia inregard to the severity of the sentences passed by the court martial on H.M.A.S.

Australia, I desire to ask the Acting Minister for the Navy whether the Government will use their influence with the British Admiralty , to secure a favorable reconsideration of the sentences. I believe that if that were done, the sentences wouldbe remitted, as desiredby the people of the Commonwealth.

Mr POYNTON:
NAT

– The Government has the matter in hand, and. is now giving it attention. As the honorable member has said, the question is one for the determination of the British Admiralty, since the men dealt with by the court martial were under Admiralty regulations. We are seeing what can be done in these particularcases.

page 10652

QUESTION

TERMINATION OF THE WAR

Mr.PIGOTT.-Will the Acting Prime Minister tell the House whether,, from a. legal point, of view, the “termination of the war” is considered to date from the isigning of thie Peace Treaty, or from the date- of the exciiamge of ratifications by the nations concerned?

Mr WATT:
NAT

– My honorable friend, as am’ inmiolceafiit layman, (has- toiicfoed: the button of a bell’ that is resounding throughout a good many . Oiaibinets: to-day. So’ impQastarut a question should not be put. ofi^hand1 by a laiyman ito a layman. If thehotntoraMe member wiH give notice, I shiall obtain for him . the advice of the CrownLawauthorities. repatriationboardsand COMMITTEES.

Appointment of Women.

Mr PAGE:
MARANOA, QUEENSLAND

– I desire to ask the Ministerrepresenting thie Minister- for Repatriation whether- it is. intended “to allow the appointment of a woman on each Local Repatriation Committee,, and one woman-,on each State Board ?

Mr POYNTON:
NAT

– I understand that it has recently been decided to appoint women to State Boards, and I believe also to the Central Board.

Mr MACKAY:
LILLEY, QUEENSLAND · NAT; UAP from 1931

asked the Minister representing the Minister for Repatriation, upon notice -

  1. Whether women are eligible for appointment on State Repatriation Boards and Local Committees!
  2. If not, will the Minister recognise the valuable work performed by the women of Australia in patriotic efforts during the recent war in connexion with the various schemes of Repatriation by making provision for their services being availed of in any contemplated amendment of the Australian Soldiers’ Repatriation Act of 1917-18?
Mr POYNTON:

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are: -

  1. Yes.
  2. See No. 1.

INTERNEE’s DEATH.

Mr YATES:
ADELAIDE, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– Has the wife of the internee . named Roesler, who died on the 17 th June, been officially informed of his death, and have the necessary documents been furnished to her in order that she may claim funeral allowance from his lodge and insurance money, andclean-up matters in connexion with the Postal Department, in which he was employed for thirty years?

Mr WISE:
Honorary Minister · GIPPSLAND, VICTORIA · NAT

– After the honorable member’s remarks the other night, I directed inquiries to be made. They are not yet complete.

page 10652

QUESTION

RAILWAY ACCOMMODATION

Members of Parliament

Mr HECTOR LAMOND:

– Willthe Minister for Home and Territories make representations to the New South Wales Railways. Commissioners with the object of securing more humane treatment for Federal members of Parliament who are paying a high price for railway accommodation ? Some honorable members, like myself, travel each week from 1,200 to 2,000 miles in order to serve in this Parliament, and we are invariably put in the worst compartments in the. train. The carriages in which we have to travel are constantly placed- in the worst position in the make-up of the train. As a matter of fact,, things are getting worse every session, and we are now threatened, that, on the next occasion, Federal members; -will have only, four-berth compartments made available for them.

Mr GLYNN:
Minister for Home and Territories · ANGAS, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · NAT

– The honorable member for Calare (Mr. Pigott) drew my attention to this matter yesterday, and I have directed that a communication be sent to the New South Wales Government upon the subject. My information is that the accommodation provided is not up to requirements. I shall look into the matter, and let the honorablemember know the result of my inquiries.

page 10652

QUESTION

RETURN OF PRIME MINISTER

Mr BRENNAN:
BATMAN, VICTORIA

– It has. been notified in certain reliable places that the Prime Minister (Mr. Hughes)1 is coming home to fight his, enemies. If the Acting Prime Minister can relieve my apprehension, I would like to know from him whether the reference is to honorable members on his own side, or honorable members on our side?

Mr WATT:
NAT

– I have no doubt that the question is intended to be funny as are most of the questions that fall from the honorable member’s lips, but it does not strike me as funny.I do notknow whether the Prime Minister made use of the remark referred to, but if he did, my own mind is clear as to where his enemies are, and the honorable member’s’ conscience ought to be able to tell him also where they are.

page 10653

QUESTION

DIRECTOROF NAVIGATION

Mr TUDOR:

– Have any steps been taken to appoint a Director of Navigation? If so, is it intended to fill the position soon with the object of proclaiming the Act at an early date?

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Steps have been taken to appoint a Director of Navigation. In the meantime, the Department is pushing on with the preparatory work as rapidly as possible.

page 10653

REPATRIATION DEPARTMENT

Materialforsoldiers’houses

Mr.FENTON. - In connexion with the building of soldiers’ homes, is the Repatriation Department taking steps to protect itself against the high prices being charged by timber merchants and others?

Mr POYNTON:
NAT

– The matter is under consideration. Only yesterday, I heard that it was quite possible the Repatriation Department would need to establish mills and brickyard’s in order to get the requisite materials for building, houses at a rate sufficiently cheap to enable it to provide soldiers with homes at a reasonable cost..

page 10653

QUESTION

AMALGAMATIONOF BANKS

Mr WEST:

– Has the Treasurer seen a cablegram in the public press in regard to a meeting held in London by abanking institution of New South Wales, whose head office is in Great Britain, at which it was stated that it was the intention of the Australian banks to amalgamate? Is he aware that the British Government regards the amalgamation of banks so seriously that a Bill of a very drastic character has already been tabled with the purpose of protecting the public ? Will he study the provisions of that Bill and tell the House what action the Commonwealth Government intends to take in regard to the amalgamation of banks in Australia ?

Mr WATT:
NAT

– I did not see the cablegraphic information to which the honorable member refers, but I have reason to believe that the British Government contemplates taking action in regard to banking. No further information with reference to the matter has reached Australia so far as I know.

page 10653

QUESTION

WAR PENSIONS

Ex-nuptial Mothers.

Mr BRENNAN:

– Is the Assistant Minister for Defence in a position to make an announcement in regard to a matter which has been very frequently mentioned in the House and sympathetically received on both sides, the intention of the Government in regard to mothers of ex-nuptial sons who have been killed in action at the war ?

Mr WISE:
NAT

– I shall give an answer to the honorable member’s question on Wednesday next.

page 10653

QUESTION

AVIATION SCHOOL

Mr TUDOR:

– Aviation officers, who have just returned from overseas, are anxious to know what is the intention of the Department in regard to the Aviation School at Point Cook. Will it be possible for the Government to make a statement on the matter so that these men will know whether they can goback to private life or not ?

Mr WISE:
NAT

– The matter is under consideration, and a statement will be made as soon as possible. The position of returned flying officers is quite recognised, and as it is understood that they are anxious to know whether they are to go back to private life or not, we are hastening a decision on the matter.

page 10654

QUESTION

PEACE CELEBRATIONS

Medals for Children

Mr CORSER:
WIDE BAY, QUEENSLAND

– Is it a fact that the peace medals for distribution in Queensland have teen completed for a considerable time, but that no steps had been taken to forward them until this week?

Mr WISE:
NAT

– Some delay took place owing to the illness of Captain Combes, the secretary of the Peace Celebrations Committee, but the distribution of the medals is now proceeding1 as rapidly as possible.

Mr ARCHIBALD:
HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA

– Will the Government consider the question of distributing these medals, not only to children attending school, but also to children who are not of school age; because, obviously, in after years, there will be a distinction between the children who have been able to secure the medals and those who were not old enough to attend schools ?

Mr WATT:
NAT

– When the Celebrations Committee was appointed under the presidency of the honorable member for Nepean (Mr. Orchard), and the medal question was considered, the Government expressed its desire that every child in Australia should receive a medal on- the proclamation of peace. I realize that there are many difficulties in the matter of distribution to children of tender age, but I suggested to the honorable member for Nepean, and J. think he has already dealt with the matter, that, on the application of parents, medals be provided for children in arms, so that it may be said that every child alive, within the Commonwealth, when peace was declared, received a token commemorating the event.

page 10654

QUESTION

NATIONAL FEDERATION MEETING

Mr HIGGS:

– I ask the Acting Prime Minister, having reference to speeches made by him, the Acting Minister for the’ Navy (Mr. Poynton), and the AttorneyGeneral (Mr. Groom), at a secret or private meeting of the National Federation in Melbourne, if he will be good enough to lay on the ‘table of the House the programme which was the result of those speeches ?

Mr WATT:
NAT

– I have not got it, but I saw some reference to it in the press. I might as well ask the honorable member himself to lay upon the table the programme of his own party.

page 10654

QUESTION

WHEAT POOL

Mr LYNCH:
WERRIWA, NEW SOUTH WALES

– I ask the Acting Prime Minister if he is in a position to state when further payments will be made in respect of any or all of the Wheat Pools ?

Mr WATT:
NAT

– I am not in a position to do that at present, as I have not had definite details as to how the £10,000,000 worth of wheat, which the Prime Minister (Mr-. Hughes)1 has succeeded in selling in London, is to be paid for. Until I receive that information I shall not be able to make a definite calculation as to its effect upon the Wheat Pools.

page 10654

QUESTION

TABLING OF PAPERS

Court Martial on H.M.A.S. “ Aus.TRALIA “ - Formula fob Shrapnel Shells - Trial of James Mathews.

Mr MATHEWS:

– I ask the Acting Prime Minister, without notice, and apologize for having to do so - he knows that usually I am not so very persistent - when he will lay on the table of the Library the papers referring to the trial of men on’ H.M.A.S. Australia, the papers connected with the endeavour of the Government to secure the formula for making shrapnel shells, and the papers relating to the trial of James Mathews ?

Mr WATT:
NAT

– My honorable friend is quite right when he says he is not usually so persistent, but he does convey the impression, sometimes, that he is a very pood substitute for persistency. I have communicated with the Ministers in charge of those Departments. I have received some replies, but I have not yet had time to deal with them. As soon as I have a chance to analyze them I shall be able to see how far public policy ought to condition the making known of the information referred to, particularly that relating to one James Mathews.

page 10654

QUESTION

PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSIONER’S REPORT

Mr TUDOR:

– Is the Acting Prime Minister in a position to say whether the report of the Public Service Commissioner, Mr. McLachlan, has been received, and if itwill be laid on the table of the House for perusal by honorable members?

Mr WATT:
NAT

– My honorable friend cannot say that he is not persistent in this or any other matter.

Mr Tudor:

– If I want information, I ask until I get it.

Mr WATT:

– The report was requested from Mr. McLachlan many months ago, and Mr. McLachlan, who devoted considerable attention to his work, has presented his report to the Government. It was sent from Cabinet to a sub-Committee, which is at present engaged in analyzing it. It is an important, lengthy, and informative document. When the sub-Committee’s report is ready for Cabinet, we shall deliberate upon it.

Mr Tudor:

– Shall we ever get it?

Mr WATT:

– I think so. May I add, Mr. Speaker, that there are eighty questions on notice, and I observe that over thirty of them are listed for myself in some capacity or other? As we have already had over half-an-hour of crossfiring on questions without notice, I suggest we might proceed with the questions on notice, and get to the business of the day.

page 10655

PERSONAL EXPLANATION

Mr.FINLAYSON. - I desire to make a personal explanation concerning some misleading and untrue remarks made by the honorable member for Hindmarsh (Mr. Archibald) yesterday.

Mr SPEAKER (Hon W Elliot Johnson:

– Order! The honorable member must withdraw that statement.

Mr.FINLAYSON. - I will withdraw the word “untrue,” Mr. Speaker, and substitute “ annoying “ for it. The remarks made by the honorable member for Hindmarsh induced me yesterday to use language which was quite unparliamentary, and, at your request, I withdrew it. The honorable member yesterday, referring to my political life, said that I had never voted Labour until I had voted for myself. The statement, in a somewhat similar form, was made previously by the Acting Attorney-General (Mr. Groom), and by the honorable member for Wide Bay (Mr. Corser), but I took little notice of it because it came from my political opponents, and manifestly it was made for political purposes. I do object, however, when an honorable member who deserted his own party in its time of trouble and trial accuses me of being false politically; and I think I have a right to inform the House and my constituents, who obviously were meant to be impressed by the statement, of the facts concerning my political career. I entered this House in 1910 at the very urgent request of two particularly honoured Labour representatives, Mr. Hinchcliffe, M.L.C., of Queensland, and David Bowman, ex-Leader of the Labour party in that State. I have often told them since that the only grudge I have against them was that they induced me to leave a comfortable position in private life for the political arena.

Mr Jowett:

– We all agree with that.

Mr.FINLAYSON. - Prior to that time, and particularly during the 1906 Federal election, I took a very active part in support of the Labour candidate, Dr. Culpin, and at about the same time I was urgently requested to submit myself as a Labour candidate for Warwick in the State Parliament; but I declined the invitation. Prior to that, and during the 1904 Federal election, I actively supported the candidature of Dr. Culpin against the two opposing Liberal candidates. Prior to that again, and while in Maryborough, as the honorable member for Wide Bay (Mr. Corser) is well aware, I identified myself with the Labour candidate, Mr. Norman, and the Independent candidate, Mr. Stafford, in opposition to the Liberal candidates, Mr. Annear and Mr. Bartholomew. From the time of my arrival in Australia in 1887, I have always taken an active part in temperance work, and whilst occupying an official position in that movement, I kept myself free from membership in any political party, because I believe that the temperance question should not be the plaything of party politics. I believe that the temperance movement is in a faulty position to-day, because its leaders have not followed a wise policy in this regard.

Mr SPEAKER:

– Order ! The honorable member cannot go into that question on a personal explanation.

Mr FINLAYSON:
BRISBANE, QUEENSLAND

– I realizethat, Mr. Speaker, and will not continue. While I was in Maryborough, which is in the Wide Bay electorate, I was repeatedly approached by Labour supporters with requests to submit myself as a candidate for the State Parliament, but I persistently declined. Some time later I was approached, on behalf of Mr. Kidston, the then Premier of Queensland, with a very tempting offer of subsequent promotion if I would contest the Oxley electorate against Mr. Denham, the ex-Premier.

Mr Watt:

– Evidently you have been very popular.

Mr.FINLAYSON. - I can say at all events that I have been more successful than most men in resisting temptations to enter politics.

Mr Kelly:

– Or to leave politics. We understand Mr. Ryan wants to get in here.

Mr FINLAYSON:

– Perhaps I cannot better explain my position than by reminding honorable members of the Shakspearian quotation -

Who Steals my purse stealstrash; ‘tis something, nothing;

Twas mine, ‘tis his, and has been slave to thousands;

But he that filches from me my good name

Robsme of that which not enricheshim,

And makes me poor indeed.

Those honorable members have deliberately tried to rob me of my good name, which I remind them is as dear to me as, perhaps, theirs isto them. What Ihavesaid is, I think, a sufficient answer to the statements made about my political life. Those honorable gentlemen - particularly the two Queensland members referred to-must know that never at any time was I a memberor supporterof the Liberal party, nor have I ever been inany way identified with it. I hope, therefore, that I have heard the last of these suggestions.

page 10656

QUESTION

INFLUENZA AT LIVERPOOL CAMP

Mr BRENNAN:

– Iask the Assistant Minister for Defence if hehas heard any complaint, resultingfromthe outbreak of influenza in the internment Gamp at Liverpool, of insufficient medical attention, and that generally the conditions there are very bad?

Mr WISE:
NAT

– I have not.

ADJOURNMENT (Formal).

Public Service : Western Australia.

Mr SPEAKER (Hon W Elliot Johnson:

– I have received an intimation from the honorable member for Swan (Mr. Corboy) that he desires to move the adjournment of the House to discuss a definite matter of urgent public importance, viz., “The appointment of certain persons to the Commonwealth Public Service in West Australia, and the effect of such appointments on certain other persons.”

Five honorable members having risen in their places,

Question proposed.

Mr CORBOY:
Swan

.- I am in receipt of the following telegram from the secretary of the Returned Soldiers Association in Perth: -

Federal Taxation Department eastern States sending over returned soldiers who have qualified in eastern States to take place of temporary clerks returned soldiers employed here. We object to introduction of men from east for these positions, contending it is a case of repatriating eastern returned soldiers at’ the expense of local returned soldiers. There are only a limited number of positions to fill in Western Australia, and by introducing men from other States there will be no positions for those men who are returning and who will desire to qualify for positions in the Service. Please note that the salary paid to these men coming over is approximately11s. 3d. per day. Minimum rate in this State for temporary officers 12s. 6d.

During the last two years there has been a decided drift of men from the eastern States to Western Australia to occupy the better-paid positions in the Service there. That hasbeen especially noticeable in the Defence Department. In the present instance the complaint is against the Taxation Department. We do not enjoy a reciprocal transfer of men from Western Australia to the eastern States, and I think the position of returned soldiers in the West, who desire to qualify for the Service, is being unjustly prejudiced by the sending over of men from the eastern States. I ask for some definite pronouncement on this matter from the Acting Prime Minister, because, when in the past, we have protested against Defence Department appointments of this kind, we have been informed that for the purposes of the Public Servicethe Government regard the Commonwealth as a whole, and take no notice of State boundaries. However, this practice operates unjustly against the returned soldiers in a State which did its part in the war extremely well. We, in this House, should now do our part in seeing that the positions in Western Australia are kept for the men from that State who did the job at the Front.

Mr WATT:
Acting Prime Minister and Treasurer · Balaclava · NAT

– The honorable member for Swan was courteous enough to show me the telegram when I entered the Chamber this morning, but I have not been able to get from the Department the papers relating to the case. I do not know whether or not the allegations made in the telegram are substantially correct, or whether, if they are, the practice referred to is followed at the instance of the Commissioner of Taxation, or is inter-departmental. All I can say at this stage is that the Government has laid down no policy of the kind indicated. The sending of officers to Western Australia appears to be an automatic operation of the Commonwealth Public Service machine. But if I were a resident of the West, and saw a drift of officers from the eastern States to the disadvantage of Western men, whether returned soldiers or not, I should be inclined to voice the indignation of the Western State. Of course, the theory is generally held that the Commonwealth Service is one body throughout Australia, and many transfers to Defence Department positions and others have teen made that are of a thoroughly reciprocal nature. That is the only way in which promotion can be gained in certain branches of the Service. However, if the honorable member for Swan will be content with this answer for to-day, I shall inquire into the matter and furnish him, as early as possible next week, with a more definite reply. If he is not then satisfied, he will be able to take further action.

Question resolved in the negative.

page 10657

QUESTION

PEACE CONFERENCE AND TREATY

Mr HIGGS:

asked the Acting Prime Minister, upon notice -

  1. Having reference to a meeting of the National members of the Federal Parliament, at Parliament House, on Tuesday, 24th June, and the announcement to the press by the Acting Prime Minister that at the said meeting he had made a statement in which he “dealt with the work of the Australian delegates at the Peace Conference “ ; that he “ described the fight which the Prime Minister (Mr. Hughes) had undertaken on behalf of Australia for freedom in economic matters, for a just indemnity for all the Allied parties of the war, and for a proper mandate in connexion with the Colonies in the Western Pacific” - Will the Acting Prime Ministermake a similar statement to members of the House of Representatives in Parliament assembled?
  2. Will the Acting Prime Minister lay on the table of the House a copy of the Peace Treaty as submitted to the Germans some weeks ago, and indicate what modifications have been made in the said Treaty before its signature by the Germans on Saturday last, the 28 th June?
  3. What is the reason important documents relating to the Peace negotiations have not been laid on the table of the House ofRepresentatives?
Mr WATT:
NAT

– I have already dealt with this question in my reply to the honorable member’s want of confidence amendment. The answers to his questions are -

  1. When the Prime Minister arrives, he will be able to give Parliament and the country a much fuller explanation of his representation of Australia at the Peace Conference than I am able to give.
  2. The Government have not yet received a copy of the Peace Treaty, nor of the modifications made as the result of the German counter proposals.
  3. I have previously informed the honorable member that I am not in a position to disclose the contents of any of the secret correspondence which has, during the war, passed between the Government of Great Britain and Australia; but that, on the arrival of the Prime Minister,I will refer the matter to him for his consideration.

page 10657

QUESTION

EXPORT OF PEARL SHELL

Mr JOHN THOMSON:
for Mr. Gregory

asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice -

  1. Whether particulars of the export of trocus shell, tonnage, and value, for the past three years is obtainable?
  2. Will the Minister instruct that separate statistics be kept of the values and tonnage of pearl and trocus shell?
Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

  1. No. Both the trocus and mother-of-pearl varieties are included in the one statistical heading Pearl Shell.
  2. Yes.

page 10658

NAVAL AND DEFENCE ADMINISTRATION

Report of Royal Commission

Mr HIGGS:

asked the Acting Prime

Minister, upon notice -

Will he lay on the table of the House forthwith the final report of theRoyal Commission on Naval and Defence Administration, and move that the same be printed?

Mr.WATT. - A copy of the report has been laid on the table of the House.

page 10658

QUESTION

EXPORT OF FRUIT FROM WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr JOHN THOMSON:
for Mr. Gregory

asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice -

  1. Whether he will cause special inquiries to be made by the Board of Trade for the purpose of providing ample and efficient storage space for the export of fruit, and particularly grapes, from Western Australia to Britain during the ensuing season?
  2. Will he also have inquiries made as to the best means of providing markets and promoting trade in the export of meats, contingent on the establishment of freezing works at Geraldton, Carnarvon, or other ports on the north-west coast of Western Australia?
Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Yes.

page 10658

QUESTION

MANUFACTURE OF WOOL TOPS

Colonial Combing, Spinning, and Weaving Company

Mr HIGGS:

asked the Acting Prime Minister, upon notice -

  1. What are the terms, in short detail, of the writ issued by the Government against the Colonial Combing, Spinning, and Weaving Company?
  2. When was the writ issued?
  3. Has the case been set down for hearing?
  4. If not, why not?
Mr WATT:
NAT

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are: -

  1. The action in question is, in substance, an action for recovery of moneys due to the Commonwealth and the Central Wool Committee under agreements made with the company referred to in respect of the manufacture of wool tops, and for a statement of account between the company and the Commonwealth.
  2. 1st March, 1919.
  3. No.
  4. The statement of claim has been delivered by the Commonwealth, but the company has not yet delivered its defence; and the case is, therefore, not ready to be set down for trial.
Mr HIGGS:

asked the Acting Prime Minister, upon notice -

Will he lay on the table of the House a copy of the agreement substituted, or proposed to be substituted, for the March, 1917, agreement between the Commonwealth Government and the Colonial Combing, Spinning, and Weaving Company?

Mr WATT:

– On 26th September, 1918, representatives of the Central Wool Committee of the Colonial Combing, Spinning and Weaving Company Limited met me at my office, with the view of arranging the terms of a new agreement to be entered into between the Committee and the company. The heads for such new agreement were drawn up by me; and, on 27th September, were signed by the respective parties. A draft agreement designed to embody the heads for agreement in formal shape was then settled by counsel on behalf of the Central Wool Committee, and submitted to the company for its approval; but the parties have so far not been able to. agree as to vital clauses. As the “heads for agreement,” inter alia, are included in the subject-matter of the litigation, and the ease is subjudice, no further explanation can be given.

page 10658

QUESTION

SOLDIERS’ OVERCOATS

Mr JOHN THOMSON:
for Mr. Aus tin Chapman

asked the Assistant Minister for Defence, upon notice -

  1. Is it a fact that when returned soldiers are being discharged they are asked to hand in their overcoats, or else pay 30s. for them?
  2. Will he give instructions that the “ Diggers “ can retain their coats without any payment being demanded?
Mr WISE:
NAT

– The answer to the honorable member’s questions is : - 1 and 2. It has been the practice in the past or men returning to Australia to be required to furnish a certificate that they would return the Military greatcoat on issue to them immediately after discharge, unless they joined the Army Reserve, in which case the retention of the greatcoat was permitted. Failing fulfilment of this undertaking men were charged with the value of the overcoat. The return of the greatcoat was considered necessary in order to maintain adequate supplies for A.I.F. requirements, including re-issues to troops overseas. The cessation of hostilities, and the rapidity with which our troops are returning has, however, enabled a stock to be accumulated in Australia, and it is no longer necessary to insist on the return of the articles in question; consequently, instructions have been given that all returning members of the A.I.F. may retain, without payment, the greatcoats on issue to them. It is the intention that men already demobilized shall be re-issued with greatcoats in cases in which coats have been withdrawn on discharge. Action in this direction will be taken as soon as the necessary arrangements can be made to deal with applications.

Mr FINLAYSON:

asked the Assistant Minister for Defence, upon notice -

  1. Whether it is a fact that, at the Kangaroo Point Hospital, Brisbane, two Anzac gunners, who had just returned by the Cluny Castle, were ordered to hand over their overcoats because they refused to join the Military Reserves?
  2. If, as is stated, the overcoats had been paid for by the soldiers, were they entitled to retain the articles as their own purchased property?
  3. Is the treatment of the two men referred to the policy of the Department, and applicable to all returned soldiers, irrespective of rank?
Mr WISE:

– I am unaware of the facts in the case referred to, but it will be dealt with as indicated in my reply to the questions on this subject asked by the honorable member for Eden-Monaro (Mr Austin Chapman).

page 10659

QUESTION

EXPORT OF GOLD

Mr.CORBOY (for Mr. Considine) asked the Acting Prime Minister, upon notice -

What quantity of gold has been exported by the Gold Producers’ Association during the following periods: - (a) 1st July, 1914, to 1st July, 1915; (b) 1st July, 1915, to 1st July, 1916, (c) 1st July, 1916, to 1st July, 1917; (d) 1st July, 1917, to 1st July, 1918; (e) 1st July, 1918, to 1st July, 1919?

What price per ounce has been obtained during the periods stated?

To whom has it been sold?

Mr WATT:
NAT

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are: -

  1. (a), (b), (c),(d), Nil; (e), 209,676 standard oz., of which quantity 158,311 standard oz. has been sold, and 51,365 standard oz. is in transit to port of destination for realization. The amount exported represents, approximately, one-third of the gold produced by the members of the association which was available for export.
  2. The average price obtained (exclusive of expenses and cost of realization), was £4 15s. 9d. per standard oz.
  3. Louey O’Hoy, Hong Kong; Chop Woshing, Singapore; Teong Wah, Singapore.

page 10659

QUESTION

WAR PENSIONS

Ex-Nuptial Soldiers - Case of W. M. O’Grady.

Mr TUDOR:
for Dr. Maloney

asked the Treasurer, upon notice -

In the case of mothers of ex-nuptial soldiers who have died on duty at the Front, will the Treasurer grant to the bereaved mothers the full pensions?

Mr WATT:
NAT

– Arrangements have been made by the Repatriation Department for the payment of special allowances in these eases.

Mr. TUDOR (for Dr. Maloney) asked the Treasurer, upon notice -

  1. In view of the pension of 7s. 6d. granted to Wm. O’Grady, the father of a soldier, who was his sole support, and who was killed at the Front, does the Minister consider this sufficient to live on?
  2. Is the old-age pension to be taken into account in the granting of war pensions?
Mr WATT:

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are: -

  1. Mr. O’Grady’s son was not his sole support. The son merely sent him a few pounds when ho required it. The Pensions Department accepted Mr. O’Grady’s statement asto the sums sent yearly, and granted a pension of equal amount, namely, £19 10s. a year (7s. 6d. a week ) .
  2. Mr. O’Grady also receives an old-age pension of 12s. 6d. a week, and his total income is therefore £1 a week.

page 10659

QUESTION

MILITARY ROAD: MELBOURNE TO BRISBANE

Mr FLEMING:
ROBERTSON, NEW SOUTH WALES

asked the Acting Prime Minister, upon notice -

Will the Government take into consideration the desirability of constructing and maintaining a military and general road from Melbourne viâ Sydney to Brisbane?

Mr WATT:
NAT

– Any representations on the subject will be considered, but, from a military point of view, expenditure on this object is deemed to be secondary to other more important requirements.

page 10660

QUESTION

DEPORTATION OF ENEMY ALIENS

Mr HIGGS:

asked the Acting Prime Minister, upon notice -

Will the Acting Prime Minister lay on the table of the House copies of all letters or memoranda issued to German and other residents of Australia or their wives, as the result of the Cabinet’s decision with regard to persons of enemy origin in Australia?

Mr WATT:
NAT

– To supply this information would require the appointment of an additional staff in each State to examine files. Compliance with the request would not be justifiable.

page 10660

QUESTION

PROSECUTION OF ARTHUR BLAKELEY, M.P

Mr BLAKELEY:
DARLING, NEW SOUTH WALES

asked the Acting AttorneyGeneral, upon notice -

Whether he will lay on the table of the House the whole of the papers in connexion with the issuing of a summons against Arthur Blakeley, in December, 1917, by the AttorneyGeneral’s Department?

Mr GROOM:
Minister for Works and Railways · DARLING DOWNS, QUEENSLAND · NAT

– It is not the practice of the Department to lay on the table of the House the papers in connexion with prosecutions instituted by the Commonwealth.

page 10660

QUESTION

ADMIRAL VISCOUNT JELLICOE

Visit to Cockatoo Dock

Mr JOHN THOMSON:
for Mr. Austin Chapman

asked the Acting Minister for the Navy, upon notice -

  1. Is it a fact that a large sum of money was expended in sweeping upCockatoo Dock for the recent visit of Lord Jellicoe?
  2. If so what amount was expended, and who was responsible for this expenditure?
Mr POYNTON:
NAT

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are: -

  1. No. The only hands employed cleaning the dockyard were those usually so employed, and whom it is customary to employ to keep theyard decently clean.
  2. See 1.

page 10660

QUESTION

REPATRIATION DEPARTMENT

Australians in British Army - Nurses.

Mr TUDOR:
for Dr. Maloney

asked the Minister representing the Minister for Repatriation, upon notice -

In view of the statement by Mr. Hughes that upwards of 8,000 Australian citizens joined the British Armies, willhe requesttheCabinet todecide quickly and sallow suchsoldiers to have equal rights from the Repatriation Department, as if they had joined the A.I.F.?

Mr POYNTON:
NAT

– Under the present Act the benefits ofrepatriation are already secured, not only to Australians serving with the Imperial Forces, but to those serving with the Forces of any of the King’s Dominions, subject in each case to satisfactory proof of domicile.

Mr. TUDOR (for Dr. Maloney) asked the Minister representing the Minister for Repatriation, upon notice -

In view of thebravery and self-sacrificing service rendered by -nurses at the Front, will herequest the Cabinet to grant them equal rights to those enjoyedby soldiers from the Repatriation Department?

Mr POYNTON:

– This has already been done. Under the Repatriation Act, nurses are regarded as soldiers, and are, therefore, entitled to the full benefits conferred by it.

page 10660

QUESTION

CASE OF PAUL FREEMAN

Mr CORBOY:
for Mr. Considine

asked the Acting Prime Minister, upon notice -

  1. Whether the Governmentwill grant a public trial to Paul Freeman, in connexion with certain charges made against him, and in consequence of which he has beenheld prisoner afloat and ashore for the past seven months?
  2. If so, will the Government permit the release on substantial bail of Paul Freeman, pending his trial?
Mr WATT:
NAT

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are: -

  1. No. The action taken in this case was similar to that taken in all Hike cases since the outbreak of the war.
  2. See answer to No. 1.

I would add that inquiry has been made in respect to the allegation made by the honorable member for Barrier(Mr. Considine) that it was upon information supplied by Mr. Corbould, an employee of the Mount Elliot Mining Company, that action was taken in this matter. I have ascertained that the statement is absolutely incorrect; that the gentleman had no connexion whatever with thiscase, and, moreover, has no present intention of leaving Australia.

Mr FINLAYSON:

asked the Acting Prime Minister, upon notice -

  1. Was an inventory taken ofPaulFreeman’s possessions when he was arrested?
  2. If so, what action was taken in regard to the protection or disposalofthe various items?
  3. If any of the goods were sold, who were the purchasers and what was the amount obtained for each?
  4. To what fund has the money so obtained been allocated?
  5. Who are the occupiers of the copper “ show “ previously held by Paul Freeman ?
Mr WATT:

– I am advised as follows : -

  1. No inventory of Freeman’s possessions was taken by the Commonwealth Government. His property was at no time in the possession of the Government.
  2. See answer to No. 1.
  3. It is not known whether any of Freeman’s goods were sold. Information in the Department’s possession indicates that a friend took charge of his property. 4.See answer toNo.3. 5.This Department does not know who occupiessuch leases, butthe following information has been obtainedfrom the MinesDepartment, Brisbane.: - “Freeman hada quarter interest in five mining claims, none of whichare being worked at present.His three partners, apparently, abandoned their interests and left the district in 1918, and Freeman continued to work one of the claims. Freeman’s rights would cease if new applications were received by the Department and approved by it.”

page 10661

QUESTION

SOLDIERS’ FINES

Mr McDONALD:
KENNEDY, QUEENSLAND

asked the Assistant

Minister for Defence, upon notice -

What was the amount of money received by the Defence. Department in fines from the soldiers who went abroad during the war?

Mr WISE:
NAT

– To supply this information would involve the examination, for this purpose, of the individual account of every soldier who has served in the Australian Imperial Force - a huge and costly task. A consecutive account of fines to show the total fines for the Australian Imperial Force hasnot been kept, as the information was not required for departmental purposes, and would have involved considerable cost.

Mr SAMPSON:

asked the Assistant Minister for Defence, upon notice -

  1. Whether fines imposed on soldiers killed on active servicehave been refunded, and paid to dependants of such fallen soldiers?
  2. Whethersuchrefunds, if paid, apply only in cases ofsoldierskilled subsequent to a certain date?
  3. If so, what is the reason forsuch differentiation, since the principle of refunds has been admitted by theDepartment?
Mr WISE:

– Theanswers are : -

  1. Yes; as regards those soldiers who died on service onor after 1st July, 1918, excepting in possibly a fewcasesofsoldiers whose accounts have notbeen finalized. These latter, however, wall be treated similarly.
  2. The concession hasrecentlybeen extended to all cases; and
  3. Irrespective of the date of death, in which the proper beneficiary of thesoldier’s estate was either dependent upon him, or was. his parent, wife, or child.

page 10661

QUESTION

PUBLIC SERVICE ACT

Amending Legislation - Furlough of Retiring Officers

Mr FINLAYSON:

asked the Acting Prime Minister, upon notice -

Whether itis proposed, during the present session, to amend thePublicService Act?

Mr WATT:
NAT

– The matter is at present receiving the consideration of the Government.

Mr.RICHARD FOSTER asked the Acting Prime Minister, upon notice -

  1. Whether any decision has been arrived at by the Government concerning furlough to Public Service officers reaching the retiring age of sixty-five years?
  2. Has the Solicitor-General advised the Government on the legal aspect?
  3. Has the Acting Public Service Commissioner recommended in favour of retiring officials ?
Mr WATT:

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are: -

  1. The matter is at present under consideration.
  2. Yes.
  3. The Acting Public Service Commissioner has made a recommendation that the provisions of the Public Service Act in regard to furlough be amended. The whole question of the amendment of the Public Service Act is receiving the attention of the Government, and this particular matter will be dealt with at the same time.

page 10661

QUESTION

CARGO FOR AUSTRALIAN TRANSPORTS

Mr McDONALD:

asked the Acting Minister for the Navy, upon notice -

  1. Are transports of the Commonwealth line of steamers compelled to leave England in ballast?
  2. Is it correct to say that the Boonah left England in ballast, and had to ship maize at Capetown ?
Mr POYNTON:
NAT

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are: -

  1. None of the Commonwealth Government line transports have left England absolutely in ballast.
  2. No. She carried a small quantity of general cargo from the United Kingdom. She was not compelled to ship’ maize in Capetown ; but, having the space, and the cargo being available, it was carried.

page 10662

QUESTION

WAR ALLOWANCE FOR GARRISON WARRANT OFFICERS

Mr TUDOR:
for Dr. Maloney

asked the Assistant Minister for Defence, upon notice -

  1. Is it a fact that warrant officers of the R.R.A. and R.A.E. did not receive the war allowance that other warrant officers received?
  2. If so, cannot similar consideration be given to these deserving men?
Mr WISE:
NAT

– The answer to the honorable member’s questions is as follows : - 1 and 2. It was approved by the Cabinet that the pay of the Royal Australian Garrison Artillery be equalized to that of mobilized Australian Garrison Artillery (Militia) rates by the payment of a war allowance for the period of the war, to date from 1st July, 1917. This concession was also extended to certain other units of the Permanent Forces. As the highest rank below “ Commissioned “ officer in the A.G.A. (Militia) is Company Sergeant-Major - pay,11s. per diem - no provision was made for the payment of war allowance to ranks of Permanent Forces in receipt of pay higher than that of C.S.M. Warrant Officers and Noncommissioned Officers of the Instructional Staff, who were practically employed seven days per week in Australian Imperial Force Camps and Schools of Instruction, were paid extra duty pay, at the rate of1s. 6d. per diem, whilst so employed. This payment was reviewed in 1917; and, in view of the fact that the work had somewhat eased down, the payment of extra duty pay was superseded by the granting of a daily allowance of 9d. to all Warrant and Noncommissioned Officers of the Instructional Staff, and was likewise extended to members of the Survey Corps and Provost Staff. It was never intended that any member of the Permanent Forces should be adversely affected, but that they should be placed on at least an equal footingto mobilized members of the A.G.A. At the same time, it was not intended that any member of the Permanent Forces already in receipt of pay and allowances greater in total than was payable to members of the A.G.A., of corresponding rank, should receive any additional payment.

page 10662

QUESTION

CONSTRUCTION OF WOODEN SHIPS

Mr MAHONY:

asked the Acting Minister for the Navy, upon notice -

  1. Have any of the contracts for the building of wooden ships in Australia been cancelled?
  2. If so, who arc the firms whose contracts have been cancelled?
  3. What is the full amount of money paid to each of such firms for - (a) Compensation; (b) Material, or any other reason?
Mr POYNTON:
NAT

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

  1. Yes.
  2. Wallace Power Boat Company’s contract for six ships; Hughes, Martin, and Washington’s contract for six ships; Kidman and Mayoh’s contract for six ships has been varied by the cancellation of four ships.
  3. Wallace Power Boat Company were paid one sum of £ 55,000; Hughes, Martin, and Washington were paid one sum of £72,500; Kidman and Mayoh will be paid at the rate of £5 per ton deadweight capacity of the four ships, which will amount to, approximately, £52,000. The reasons for cancellation and payments were that the Government considered it sound policy, after the conclusion of the war, not to complete the contracts for wooden ships; and the payments made included progress payments and covered contractors’ liabilities, as well as some measure of compensation. Advice has been received from the Commissioner for Australia in the United States, indicating that contracts for building 385 wooden vessels were cancelled by the American’ Government, at an average cost of £13 5s. 4d. per ton, or a total cost of £14,942,877 ; and that they further cancelled the building of fifty-two ships, at a cost rather more than that involved in the cancellation of the 385 ships. This included 342 vessels, the construction of which had not commenced, and 94 vessels in various stages of construction - mostly under 50 per cent. completed.
Mr MAHONY:

asked the Acting Minister for the Navy, upon notice -

  1. What number of wooden ships have been, or are being built, in America for the Commonwealth of Australia?
  2. What is the full cost of building (a) each ship; (b) total cost of all such ships?
  3. How many of such ships have been repaired in(a) Australia; (b) other countries?
  4. What has been the cost of repairing each of such ships?
Mr POYNTON:

– This information, which will take some time to compile, will be furnished to the honorable member as soon as possible.

page 10663

QUESTION

NAVAL, MILITARY AND CIVIL OFFENCES

Mr YATES:

asked the Acting Prime Minister, upon notice -

Whether he will, irrespective of uniformity with the States in connexion with Peace remission to prisoners, consider the release of all prisoners whose offences are of a purely military character, and a substantial remission to others?

Mr WATT:
NAT

– The whole question of the remission of sentences imposed on prisoners convicted of naval, military, and civil offences is now receiving attention, and an announcement will be made shortly.

page 10663

QUESTION

REPATRIATION: LAND GIFT

Mr MAHONY:

asked the Minister representing the Minister for Repatriation, upon notice -

  1. Has a free gift of 35 acres of building land, towards the provision of soldiers’ homes in Lithgow, New South Wales, been refused by the Department?
  2. If so, for what reason was such gift refused?
Mr POYNTON:
NAT

– A report is being obtained from the Commissioner in charge of the administration of the War Service Homes Act.

page 10663

QUESTION

SALES OF FLOUR

Mr BURCHELL:
FREMANTLE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA

asked the Acting Prime Minister, upon notice -

Whether he will say what sales of flour have been made by the Australian Wheat Board since 1st June last -

Quantities sold from each State;

Ports of destination these several cargoes;

Actual price per ton secured?

Mr WATT:
NAT

– The answers are-

  1. and (c) Prom Victoria. - 2,700 long tons at £35 per long ton c.i.f., 1,500 long tons at £30 per long ton c.i.f., 7,250 long tons at £30 per long ton c.i.f., 150 long tons at £31 per long ton c.i.f. From South Australia. - 5,800long tons at £30 per long ton c.i.f. From Western Australia. - 7,000 long tons at £27 10s. per long ton c.i.f.
  2. Denmark, Greece, and Egypt. The destinations are not known in all pases. In addition, other sales are under negotiation.

page 10663

QUESTION

H.M.A.S. BRISBANE

Punishment of Sailors

Mr BOYD:

asked the Acting Minister for the Navy, upon notice -

Whether he will lay on the table of the House the papers in connexion with the punishment of two sailors on the Brisbane mentioned in a speech on the 2nd July by the honorable member for Darling, Mr. Blakeley?

Mr POYNTON:
NAT

– No papers concerning any such occurrence have been received by the Naval Board. In the absence of names it is not known which men are referred to.

page 10663

QUESTION

STEAMERS FOR WESTERN AUSTRALIA

Mr BURCHELL:

asked the Acting Prime Minister, upon notice -

  1. Whether he will arrange with the Shipping . Controller for oversea steamers, which ordinarily would be sent in ballast to Western Australian ports, to convey general transhipment cargo at present congesting the wharves in eastern ports?
  2. If necessary, will approval to this action be sought from the Imperial Shipping Controller?
Mr WATT:
NAT

– The answers are-

  1. As far as it is known, overseas ships do not proceed to Western Australia in ballast. Oversea shipping is being used to carry out urgent Empire requirements, and under present circumstances, it is impracticable for them to be used to clear up the congestion due to local strikes.
  2. This matter is at present under consideration.

page 10663

QUESTION

RED FLAG PROSECUTIONS: BRISBANE

Mr FINLAYSON:
for Mr. Considine

asked the Acting Attorney-General, upon notice -

  1. Who signed the authority for the State, police to prosecute the men recently imprisoned in Brisbane in connexion with the red flag cases?
  2. Did the State police submit to the Commonwealth Law Department the names taken by them?
  3. Who selected the names for the Federal police for the prosecution in the first batch?
  4. How many names were handed to the Federal police by the State police, and were they all prosecuted?
  5. Were the names taken by the Commonwealth police included in the list of names taken by the State police?
  6. Why were not all the prosecutions conducted by the Commonwealth?

Mr.GROOM.- It is necessary that in quiry bemade in Queensland, and a reply willbe given as soon as possible.

page 10664

QUESTION

APPLE BOUNTY

Mr HIGGS:

asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice -

Will he lay on the table of the House forthwith a list of the persons, firms, or companies who received bounty under the Apple Bounty Act, and the amounts received?

Mr.GREENE.- The information desired by the honorable member will be made available as early as. possible.

page 10664

QUESTION

WAR PENSIONS

Home Service: Munition Workers

Mr CORSER:

asked the Treasurer, upon notice -

  1. Has any provision been made in connexion with war pensions or allowances which will include an ex-South African soldier, who, owing to incapacity caused by such war service, was rejected as unfit for service in the recent war, and was permanently injured while engaged in war recruiting work?
  2. If not, will the Treasurer make provision for such cases in any amending Bill to be introduced?
  3. No.
  4. The matter will receive consideration.
Mr CORSER:

asked the Treasurer, upon notice -

  1. If any arrangement has been made to provide for the dependants of a munition worker who died while on service abroad, leaving , a wife and young children totally unprovided for?
  2. If not, will he amend the War Pensions Act to provide for such cases?
Mr WATT:
NAT

– The answers are -

  1. Munition and war workers proceeded to England at the request of the British Government, and under agreement with the Commonwealth, in order to undertake munition and war work for the Minister of Munitions, England. No provision is made for the dependants of workers who died abroad, or on the voyage home,’ other than to continue allowances for a period of two months from receipt in the Military District of notification of death.

If a munition or war worker is injured or killed whilst at work or on the voyage, as the result of an accident not the result of his own negligence, he, or, in the case of death, his dependants, are entitled to compensation under the Workmen’s Compensation Act or the Seamen’s Compensation Act, as the case may be.

  1. It is not considered that munition workers should be placed on. the same footing as members of the Australian Imperial Forces.

page 10664

QUESTION

GREAT BRITAIN AND JAPAN:

Mr HIGGS:

asked the Acting Prime Minister, upon notice -

  1. Has the Prime Minister requested the. Acting; Prime Minister not to disclose the agreement, or understanding, between Britain and Japan, whereby Japan was. to. occupy the islands of the Pacific to the north of the Equator, and Great Bri tain, the islands to the. south of the Equator?
  2. In view of the importance of the matter, will the Acting Prime Minister cable to the Prime Minister, asking whether he objects to the documents beingmade public?
Mr WATT:
NAT

– The answers are - 1.No.

  1. It is not considered advisable to make public at this stage any documents of the kind referred! to by the honorable member.

page 10664

QUESTION

GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS: ARBITRATION

Mr HIGGS:

asked the Acting Prime Minister, upon notice -

  1. Whether the Government has any objection to the inclusionof an arbitration clause in contracts entered into by the Government to provide that if at any time any question or dispute shall arise between the Government and the contractor the same shall be referred to the arbitration, of a personto be mutually agreed upon?
  2. Will the Government accept the form of arbitration clause set out in a letter written by the Electrical Traders and Contractors Association of Victoria; and if not, will the Acting Prime Minister state the Government’s objections to the proposed clause?
Mr WATT:
NAT

– Following the receipt of a suggestion by the Electrical Traders and Contractors Association of Victoria for the inclusion in Government contracts of an arbitration clause,the matter was referred to the Commonwealth Supply andTender Board, which, after full consideration, recommended the Government not to adopt the suggestion.

page 10664

QUESTION

BANANAS

Mr MACKAY:
LILLEY, QUEENSLAND

asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice -

  1. What are the numbers of centals of bananas imported into New South Wales and

Victoria, the estimated value, and amount of duty collected for the years 1916, 1917, and 1918 respectively?

  1. Whether the question of increasing the present duty against imported, bananas has been listed for consideration at the forthcoming: revision of the Tariff?
  2. Is it a fact that there is plenty of land available in Queensland and Northern New South Wales suitable for producing all the bananas required for the trade in Australia, and that an increase inthe amount of the present duty is necessary to encourage production and to keep the Australian market for Australian-grown fruit without an increase in price to the consumer?
Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– The answers are-

  1. The information desired is not available in regard to the calendar years mentioned. In regard to the statistical years (July to June) covering the same periods, the figures were as follow : -
  1. Yes.
  2. There is plenty of land available as stated. In reply to the other part of his question, the honorable member is referred to the answer to question (2).

page 10665

QUESTION

WAR SERVICE HOMES DEPARTMENT

Appointment of Mr. J. C. Morell: Appointments in Queensland.

Mr MAXWELL:
FAWKNER, VICTORIA

asked the Minister representing the Minister for Repatriation, upon notice -

  1. What are the duties of the position to which Mr. j. C. Morell was recently appointed in the War Service Homes Department?
  2. Is Mr. Morell a returned soldier?
  3. If not, were any steps taken before Mr. Morell’s appointment to ascertain if a returned soldier, possessing the necessary qualifications, was available?
  4. If not, why not?
Mr POYNTON:
NAT

– The answers are-

  1. The selection of land areas for group settlements, bearing in mind their suitableness for convenient and economic development. The preparation of lay-out plans that will create a community interest, increase the healthfulness and contentment of the soldiers, as well as the values of the properties. The preparation of standard plans for homes to be built by the Commission. The control generally of the technical work throughout the Commonwealth and the organization of the supply of materials in bulk.
  2. No.
  3. Mr. Morell was an applicant for the position of Commissioner, and it was owing to his exceptional qualifications and. experience that he was appointed to the position of DirectorGeneral of Works by the Commissioner.
  4. See No. 3.
Mr MACKAY:

asked the Minister representing the Minister for Repatriation, upon notice -

  1. How many applications were received for the position of Deputy-Commissioner of the War Service Homes Department in Queensland?
  2. What was the number of applications received for the clerical staff of. the above Department, and what are the names of the successful applicants?
  3. Is there any truth in the published statement that members of the staff were selected previous to the calling for applications?
  4. Are all the successful male applicants appointed returned discharged soldiers?
Mr POYNTON:

– The answers are-

  1. Fifty-one. 2. (a) 371; (b) Allsop, W. G.; Smith,R. G.; Broughton, N. E. C.; Merotsy, A.L.; Sweyne, A. B. ; Morrison, A. S.
  2. No.
  3. Yes.

page 10665

QUESTION

SIGNING OF PEACE

Mr HIGGS:

asked the Acting. Prime Minister, upon notice -

If he is satisfied that the Mauritius Radio Office definitely issued the message, “Peace Signed,” will he make inquiries of the British Government through the proper channel as to who was responsible for the dissemination of inaccurate information, and what steps have been taken to punish the offender?

Mr WATT:
NAT

-I do not think that any good purpose would he served by proceeding further in the matter.

page 10665

QUESTION

SALE OF PRIMARY PRODUCE

Mr JOHN THOMSON:
for Mr. Pigott

asked the Acting Prime Minister, upon notice -

Whether he will consider the advisability of emulating Canada by authorizing the primary producers to elect their own representatives to act in conjunction with the High Commissioner in the disposal of their pooled produce overseas?

Mr WATT:
NAT

– I have referred this matter to the Minister for Trade and Customs for consideration.

page 10666

QUESTION

APPOINTMENT OF MR . H. JACKSON, PORT PIRIE

Mr YATES:

asked the Acting Minister for the Navy, upon notice -

  1. Whether applications were called for the position now held by Mr. H. Jackson, at Port Pirie?
  2. On whoso recommendation was the appointment of Mr. Jackson made?
  3. Was any endeavour made to secure a returned soldier for the position?
  4. Will the Minister lay on the table of the Library all papers connected with the resignation of Captain Davis, and the appointment of Mr. Jackson to the vacant position?
Mr POYNTON:
NAT

– The answers are -

  1. No.
  2. Engineer Rear-Admiral Sir William Clarkson, Chairman of the Commonwealth Shipping Board; and the previous manager, Captain J. K. Davis.
  3. No. It may be stated that Mr. Jackson volunteered for active service, but was rejected. He is at present President of the Rejected Volunteers’ Association in South Australia.
  4. No; but I shall be pleased at any time to allow the honorable member to peruse the files.

page 10666

NORTHERN TERRITORY CRIME STATISTICS

Mr.FINLAYSON asked the Minister for Home and Territories, upon notice -

Whether he will inform the House of the number of arrests and imprisonments in the Northern Territory during the years 1913, 1914, 1915, 1916, and 1917, showing the number for each year, and the nature of the offences?

Also the number of sly grog-selling cases reported and adjudicated upon in each of such years, giving the names of those convicted and the sentences imposed?

Mr GLYNN:
NAT

– It will be necessary to refer to Darwin for some of the details, but the return desired by the honorable member will be submitted as soon as possible.

page 10666

QUESTION

MAJOR J. C. CHANTER

Mr YATES:

asked the Assistant Minister for Defence, upon notice - 1, Will the Minister give his attention to a statement (which the honorable member for

Adelaide will hand to him) given to the press by Major J. C. Chanter, while on active service?

  1. After perusal, will the Minister say whether Major Chanter acted contrary to regulation?
  2. Has any action been taken by the Minister in this connexion?
  3. If so, with what result?
  4. If no action was taken, what was the reason ?
Mr WISE:
NAT

– The answers are -

  1. The Assistant Minister has perused the extract from the press.
  2. In the absence of definite information as to the facts regarding the publication, it is not possible to say whether Major Chanter acted contrary to the regulations. 3, 4, and 5. No action had been taken by the Minister. The matter had not been previously brought to his notice. A report has now been called for.

page 10666

QUESTION

CORNSACKS

Mr SAMPSON:

asked the. Minister for

Trade and Customs, upon notice -

  1. How many bales of bags (surplus supplies) were sold to merchants?
  2. What was the price charged per dozen?
  3. Who were the purchasers?
  4. Has any condition been made with the purchasers as to the selling price of this surplus?
  5. If so, what is the price?
  6. Did all merchants and dealers in bags have an opportunity to buy?
  7. Has the Minister imposed such conditions which, in his opinion, will protect the producer from exploitation?
Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– The answers are -

  1. Approximately, 31,537 bales. 2 and 3. As the sacks were sold to those usually dealing in jute goods, and as it is presumed they will be disposed of in the ordinary course of trade, it is thought that it would be unfair to disclose the actual prices paid, or the names of the purchasers; these prices, however, were based on the rates ruling at the time of the sales, and showed a profit to the Government on ‘the transactions.
  2. The sacks were sold under ordinary trade conditions, and as the quantity in the hands of the Government represented only a small proportion of the total required for a normal harvest any attempt to impose special conditions in the interests of the farmers would have had the effect of preventing the trade from purchasing them. In addition to this, as the power under which price fixing had been carried out will shortly lapse any stipulation of the kind suggested could not have been enforced.
  3. See answer to No. 4.
  4. Yes.
  5. See answer to No. 4.

page 10667

QUESTION

DEFENCE DEPARTMENT

Surplus Stores

Mr WALLACE:
WEST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES

asked the Assistant Minister for Defence, upon notice -

Whether the Minister will allocate a portion of the blankets and flannels being disposed of by the Department to the different S.O.S. committees formed in the City of Sydney for the purpose of distribution free to the poor and needy who are obtaining assistance owing to the influenza outbreak?

Mr WISE:
NAT

– The Commandant, Sydney, has been advised of full particulars regarding prices to be charged to In fluenza Relief Committees for various classes of part-worn blankets held by the Defence Department in Sydney. Duly accredited representatives of Influenza Relief Committees should accordingly make application at the Ordnance Stores, Circular Quay, Sydney. The Commandant has also been authorized to make a certain quantity available free to meet necessitous cases vouched for by responsible bodies

Mr BLAKELEY:

asked the Assistant Minister for Defence, upon notice -

Whether the Minister will allow of all stocks of surplus blankets, boots, wearing apparel, cloth, flannel, &c, being disposed of in each State by public auction in lots of not more than £1 in value?

Mr WISE:

– In view of the great value of the stocks tobe disposed of, it is regretted that the proposal is impracticable of adoption. All part- worn blankets in Victoria have already been disposed of either to charitable institutions; in connexion with the influenza outbreak; or to the public, and a similar course is being followed in other States where stocks are held.

page 10667

QUESTION

CENSORED LITERATURE

Mr BLAKELEY:

asked the Acting

Prime Minister, upon notice -

  1. Whether he will inform the House when be will release the great amount of written matter, hooks, papers, &c, now in the hands of the different censors?
  2. Also, will the Minister take steps to deliver letters, which have been retained by the censors to the persons to whom such letters are addressed?
  3. Have the whole of the letters, papers, &c, been preserved intact at the offices of the censors?
Mr WATT:
NAT

– The answers are-

  1. A great amount of the written matter, books, papers, &c, previously held by censors under the authority of the proclamation establishing censorship and the War Precautions Regulations has already been destroyed under the powers granted by the War Precautions Regulations.
  2. The whole question of the delivery of “held” letters is now being considered by the Crown Law officers.
  3. No; see answer to question No. 1.

page 10667

QUESTION

MR. W. B. GRIFFIN’S FEES

Mr BAMFORD:
HERBERT, QUEENSLAND

asked the Minister for

Works and Railways, upon notice -

  1. Whether it is correct, as stated in the Argus of the 31st May last, that “ he,” meaning Mr. Griffin, “ was paid special fees for designs for altering the G.P.O., Elizabeth-street, Melbourne, and the telegraph operating rooms, amounting to over £1,000.”?
  2. Is it true, as further stated in the same journal, that “ Mr. Murdoch, in the execution of his duties, also prepared plans for the very work for which Mr. Griffin’s plans were made, and the greater portion of the new post-office buildings in Spencer-street was built from Mr. Murdoch’s designs.”?
  3. Is the Mr. Murdoch here referred to an officer of the Public Works staff of the Commonwealth, and identical with the Mr. Murdoch, who was sent to England in connexion with the designs for Australia House, London?
Mr GROOM:
NAT

– The answers are -

  1. Particulars of the special fees paid to Mr. Griffin were given by me in answer to a question in the House on the 26th November last - videHansard, page8299.
  2. Mr. Griffin did not prepare plans for the new G.P.O., Spencer and Bourke streets, Melbourne; the Commonwealth Works Branch, after consultation, as usual, with the postal authorities, was responsible for the design and execution of the work. Alterations to the Elizabeth-street buildings, consequent upon the removal of certain activities to Spencer-street, were under consideration for some time, and the Minister for Home ‘ Affairs (Mr. King O’Malley) commissioned Mr. Griffin to furnish designs, which he did. The designs finally adopted, after consultations between the Works Department and the Postmaster-General’s Department, differ in certain respects from those above mentioned.
  3. Yes.

page 10667

QUESTION

WAR MUSEUM COMMITTEE

Mr JOHN THOMSON:
for Mr. Gregory

asked the Minister for Home and Territories, upon notice -

  1. Who are the members of the Australian War Museum Committee, whoso duties, it is stated, will include a recommendation for the distribution of war trophies throughout the States?
  2. Will the Minister see that all States are represented on this Committee to enable the most equitable distribution among the States of these trophies?
Mr GLYNN:
NAT

– The answers are -

  1. The Minister for Home and Territories (chairman), the Acting Minister for the Navy, the Acting Minister for Defence, and Sir Henry Weedon (chairman of trustees of the Exhibition Building, Melbourne) were the Committee originally appointed.

It has recently been decided to invite some gentlemen whose services would be of considerable help to the Committee to become members. All the replies have not yet been received, but Sir W. Brudenell White and Sir Douglas Mawson have agreed to act on the Committee.

  1. The personnel of the Committee must be largely determined by possibility of attendance at meetings. It has not been arranged, as it is not considered necessary, to include on the Committee a resident of each State.

The rights of more distant States will not be prejudiced in consequence, as I am confident the Committee will be anxious to see that the most equitabledistribution possible will be arranged.

page 10668

QUESTION

BUTTER POOL

Mr MACKAY:

asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice -

  1. Whether it is true that the Commonwealth Bank made a charge of¼ per cent. for supervising the 1917-18 Butter Pool?
  2. If so. is a similar charge being made for the supervision of the operations of the present Pool ?
Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– The answers are-

  1. Yes.
  2. Yes; but the matter is at present under consideration.

page 10668

QUESTION

MILITARY OFFICERS RETIRED

Mr TUDOR:

asked the Assistant Minister for Defence, upon notice -

  1. How many officers, on reaching the retiring age, as laid down in the Defence Act and Regulations1916, No. 152, have been retired since the war began?
  2. How many officers over the retiring age have been retained?
Mr WISE:
GIPPSLAND, VICTORIA · PROT; ALP from 1910; IND from 1914; NAT from 1917

– The answers are-

  1. One hundred and forty-eight.
  2. One hundred and fifty-six.

The above figures include both permanent and Militia officers.

page 10668

QUESTION

COUNTRY MAIL SERVICES

Mr JOHN THOMSON:
for Mr. Gregory

askedthe Postmaster-General, upon notice -

  1. Do not the regulations in regard to increased frequency of mail services require that the estimated revenue be equal to 75 per cent. of the total anticipated or ascertained cost of the service, those concerned to make good any estimated deficiency?
  2. Can the regulations not be liberalized in outlying districts where mail services are very infrequent?
Mr WATT:
for Mr. Webster · NAT

– The replies are as follows -

  1. No; but when an increased frequency is desired on a service which is already nonpaying, or which would be rendered unfinancial by the establishment of the increased frequency, the estimated revenue from the additional service, and the contribution by the persons concerned, or both, must equal 75 per cent. of the increased frequency, the remaining 25 per cent. being a charge against the Department.
  2. The policy of the Department in this connexion, taken in conjunction with the general policy in regard to the establishment and maintenance of mail services, is considered liberal.

page 10668

QUESTION

DARDANELLES COMMISSION

Mr TUDOR:

asked the Acting Prime Minister, upon notice -

Will he have the Report of the Dardanelles Commission printed and made public?

Mr WATT:
NAT

– The Government is not yet in a position to make the report public.

page 10668

QUESTION

FROZEN MEAT EXPORT

Mr SAMPSON:

asked the Acting

Minister for the Navy, upon notice -

  1. What is the number of shipments of frozen meat sent from Australia since the signing of the Armistice?
  2. What were the quantities shipped overseas from each State, separately stated, during the months of May and June?
Mr POYNTON:
NAT

– The information desired by the honorable member will be furnished as soon as possible.

page 10668

QUARANTINE

Surchargeonsteamerfares.

Mr.TUDOR asked the Acting Prime Minister, upon notice -

What was the reason for the surcharge of £3 10s. on steamer fares from Tasmania to Melbourne?

Is there any likelihood of this money being refunded?

Mr WATT:
NAT

– Theanswers are -

  1. The increase of £3 10s. was imposed owing to the heavy additional expense of running steamers on account of the quarantine restrictions. The increase in fares and freights charged at the time was not nearly sufficient to cover the extra expense of running the vessels.
  2. No.

page 10669

QUESTION

AUSTRALIAN IMPERIAL FORCE

Soldiers’ Overcoats - Medical Examinations - Pensions - Deceased Soldiers’ Blankets - Duntroon Cadets - Exemption from Taxation.

Mr BURCHELL:

asked the Assistant Minister for Defence, upon notice -

  1. Whether the Government will reconsider their decision, and allow returned soldiers to keep their greatcoats, without payment, as part of their official uniform?
  2. If favorable to such a course, will the men already discharged be able to secure a re-issue of greatcoats?
Mr WISE:
NAT

– Answers to these questions are contained in my reply to the questions asked by the honorable member for Eden-Monaro (Mr. Chapman) on this subject.

Mr BURCHELL:

asked the Assistant Minister for Defence, upon notice -

  1. Whether the present system of medically examining members of the Australian Imperial Force in a cursory way is considered sufficient?
  2. Is it a fact that many complaints are arising from the system from soldiers claiming pensions?
  3. Will he arrange for the members of the final Medical Board to, simultaneously with examination of the individual soldier, review the previousmedical history of each soldier ?
Mr WISE:

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

  1. The present system of medically examining members of the Australian Imperial Force on disembarkation is not cursory, and is considered more satisfactory than any alternative method. Men arriving from overseas are anxious to have their cases dealt with by a Medical Board as soon as possible, and this is achieved after scrutiny by a Board of experienced Medical Officers. Delay is not only unpopular with the men, but allows injuries and illnesses to become aggravated in the interval, while useless expense to the Commonwealth is caused.
  2. Only a very few complaints are known to this Department, and of these several were unjustifiable.
  3. The previous medical history, if available, is invariably considered at the time of examination. The instructions issued to the Commandant, Australian Imperial Force, Headquarters, London, provide that all medical history papers shall be placed on the same transport as the men embark on. A full medical examination is also made of themen while on the transports, and this is in the hands of the Examining Board.

Any dissatisfied man can have his claim to pension reviewed by the P.M.O. on application.

Mr JOHN THOMSON:
for Mr. Gregory

asked the Assistant Minister for Defence, upon notice -

  1. Whether it is not a fact that, in the event of the death or incapacity of a soldier who enlisted at the age of eighteen or nineteen years, the pension is based on the average earnings of the soldier during the year prior to enlistment?
  2. As such earnings may possibly have been nil, and as the youth was voluntarily doing a soldier’s work and duty, will the Minister favorably consider an amendment of the Act whereby pensions in such cases will be granted on the basis of an average man’s earnings?
Mr WISE:

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow: -

  1. Pension is based on the extent of dependence during the twelve months prior to enlistment.
  2. This matter is under consideration, but in the meantime the Repatriation Department has arranged that special allowances may be paid in such cases.
Mr BURCHELL:

asked the Assistant Minister for Defence, upon notice -

  1. Whether it is a fact that blankets used to bury deceased soldiers are charged against the said soldier’s pay account?
  2. If so, will he have the amount refunded to the relatives?
Mr WISE:

– Such a procedure would not be countenanced by the Department, and no instance of its occurrence is known.

Mr RILEY:
for Mr. McGrath

asked the Assistant Minister for Defence, upon notice -

  1. Is it a fact that sixty Duntroon military cadets went to England by the Marathon, which sailed last January?
  2. Is it also a fact that sixty officers (who had been fighting in France) have been relieved by these cadets?
  3. If so, arc these cadets who left Australia after the Armistice was signed permitted to wear the colour patches of the battalion of the officers whom they have relieved?
  4. What was the object in sending these cadets to England?
Mr WISE:

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

  1. Sixteen, not sixty, graduates from the Royal Military College, Duntroon, left Australia on 25th January, 1919, by the Marathon.
  2. No information is available on this matter.
  3. Every officer and soldier of the Australian Imperial Force is permitted to wear the colour patches of the unit to which he has been allotted in the field. 4 Cadets from the Royal Military College arc on graduation appointed to the Permanent Military Forces as commissioned officers, and are sent to England for twelve months for completion of their training. During the war they were also appointed to the Australian Imperial Force as lieutenants. The. last batch of sixteen wore so appointed, but as hostilities had ceased they had to finish their training with units of the British Army.
Mr FLEMING:

asked the Treasurer, upon notice -

To what extent are soldiers and munition workers returning from service abroad exempt from taxation?

Mr WATT:
NAT

– The answer to the honorable member’s question is: -

For Income Tax. -Returned soldiers are exempt from taxation in respect of all personal exertion income derived by them from sources within Australia from the date of their enlistment for service abroad until the date of their discharge from the Forces, or the termination of appointment in the case of officers. From the latter date they become liable to taxation from personal exertion income like ordinary citizens. Soldiers’ on active service have always been liable! to pay tax on any income from property derived from sources within Australia provided it amounted to £100 in the case of a single person without dependants, or to more than £156 in the case of persons with dependants. Munition workers have never been exempt from taxation on any part of their Australian income, because they were not on active service outside Australia with the Naval or Military Forces of the Commonwealth, or any part of the King’s Dominions, or of an Ally of Great Britain, as provided by section 13 of the Act.

War-time Profits Tax. - Returned soldiers who own businesses, or are partners in a firm, or shareholders in a company consisting of not more than twenty shareholders, are exempt from this tax if they were in the danger zone while the assessable profits were being earned or when the tax thereon was assessed. Munition workers are liable as ordinary citizens of Australia who are temporarily absent from Australia for any reason.

Land Tax. - There is no exemption from this tax to either returned soldiers or munition workers who own land having an aggregate unimproved value of over £5,000.

page 10670

QUESTION

GENERAL BIRD WOOD

Visit to Australia

Mr BURCHELL:

asked the Acting Prime Minister, upon notice -

  1. Whether General Sir William Birdwood is to visit Australia this year at the invitation of the Government or in a private capacity?
  2. If General Birdwoodis coming to Australia as. a guest of the Government, is it solely in recognition of his work as General Officer Commanding Australian Imperial Force, or is it intended to obtain a report on postwar military problems?
Mr WATT:
NAT

– The Government have no information whether General Sir William Birdwood intends to visit Australia. I understand that the Prime Minister has been considering the matter, but I do not know whether a formal invitation has been given to the General. When the Prime Minister returns he will be’ in a position to inform the honorable member and the House.

page 10670

DEFENCE DEPARTMENT

Pay Clerks in England.

Mr WISE:
NAT

– On the 26th June the honorable member for Dampier (Mr. Gregory) asked -

Will the Assistant Minister for Defence lay on the table a statement showing the names, the ages, and the period of service in the Australian Imperial Force, if any, or the pay of the pay and other clerks who accompanied Senator Pearce to England.

A statement has now been prepared, which I propose to hand to the honorable member.

page 10670

QUESTION

FROZEN MEATS AND BUTTER

Mr SAMPSON:

asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice -

  1. Whether the statement made by the Victorian Director of Agriculture at Ballarat “ that New South Wales had been given substantial relief” in the shipments of its frozen meats and butter, “ that dozens of cables had passed between the Victorian Government and the Imperial authorities, with the result that the matter was referred to the Shipping Committee in Australia, that Victorian cold stores were jammed full, and that Victoria had not had a fair deal “ is correct?
  2. If so, will the Minister explain the reason for this differentiation?
Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions’ are as follow : -

  1. No. During March, April, and May, nine vessels were allotted to Victoria, and loaded 9,343 tons of meat. During the same period two vessels were allotted to New South Wales, and loaded 2,101 tons of meat. As far as can be ascertained, no shipments were made from either State during June. The provision of refrigerated space to meet requirements for the forthcoming season has had the attention of the Government, and urgent representations have been made, through the Prime Minister, with a view to obtaining a further allotment of refrigerated space for Australian requirements, special attention being drawn tothe position in the Southern States.
  2. See answer to No. 1.

page 10671

QUESTION

IMPORTATION OF SHEEP DIP

Mr JOHN THOMSON:
for Mr. Palmes

asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, upon notice -

  1. Whether he will afford the House an early opportunity of discussing and arriving at a decision in regard to the question of the embargo placed upon the importation of sheep dip?
  2. Will the Minister permit the importation of sheep dip till Parliament has otherwise determined ?
Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– The . Government have already stated fully their reasons for placing the embargo on the importation of sheep dip, and their intention of lifting such embargo when the Tariff is introduced. Meanwhile, importers have been informed that, if agreeable to such a course, they may make shipments to Australia on the understanding that all such shipments will be held under Customs control pending the introduction of the new Tariff, delivery then to be given subject to the payment of duty..

page 10671

WHEAT POOL

Sales to Japan

Mr BLAKELEY:

asked the Acting

Prime Minister, upon notice -

  1. Whether it is a fact that the New South Wales Wheat Board sold inferior wheat for export to Japan at an average price of 4s. 4½d. per bushel?
  2. Is it a fact that the Victorian Wheat Board disposed of inferior wheat to Japanese buyers at 5s. 7½d. per bushel?
  3. If so, were such sales consummated with the consent of the Australian Wheat Board?
  4. If so, why not?
  5. Is it a fact that Mr. Graham; Minister for Agriculture, New South Wales, in April last sold to G.Georgeson, of Sydney, for the Eastern trade, 3,000,000 bushels of inferior 1917 wheat at an average price of 4a. 4½d. per bushel?
  6. Is it a fact that local millers were asked to pay 5s. per bushel for similar wheat?
  7. Is it a fact that this sale was effected by the New South Wales Wheat Board without consultation with the Australian Wheat Board?
  8. Is it a fact that the Australian Wheat Board wrote to the State Wheat Board asking for information with reference to the sale to Georgeson, and such information was refused?
  9. Is it a fact that Senator Russell, Acting Minister for Defence, went to Sydney and demanded such information, and threatened to cancel such contract with Georgeson?
  10. Is it a fact that the sale to Georgeson means a loss to the Australian Wheat Pool and the farmers therein of approximately £100,000?
  11. Will the Acting Prime Minister, in the interests of the wheat-growers, immediately appoint a Royal Commission to inquire into the working of the New South. Wales Wheat Board, especially in re the Georgeson sale?
Mr WATT:
NAT

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

  1. Yes.
  2. Yes.
  3. The New South Wales sale was not made by the Australian Wheat Board, or with its knowledge. The Victorian sale was made by the Australian Wheat Board.
  4. To facilitate business and avoid loss of time, latitude was permitted to States in making sales of inferior wheat without reference to the Australian Wheat Board, the basis f.a.q. price, however, being fixed by the Board.

As States were debited by the Board with the f.a.q. rate, even though a considerably lower price might be realized, it was to the advantage of the States to obtain as high a price as possible, and the interests of the Australian Pool were safeguarded. The practice was to report such sales immediately to the Australian Wheat Board, which thereupon issued a contract note. The New South Wales sale referred to was not so reported.

  1. Yes; the quantity, however, was 72,000 tons.
  2. This is not known to the Australian Wheat Board, sales to millers being made by the State offices.
  3. Yes.
  4. The Australian Wheat Board asked for information. The reply received was that the

Minister of Agriculture, Sydney, would make an explanation to the Wheat Board at its next meeting.

  1. No. Senator Russell arranged that the matter should be dealt with at the next meeting of the Board.
  2. Under the system in force at the time the sale was made, the loss, if the wheat had been sold below its value, would have been confined to the New South Wales Pool. This system, was altered at the meeting of the Wheat Board held in May, with the result that if the wheat had been sold substantially below its value the AustralianPool, aswell as the New South Wales Pool, would have suffered loss. As no sample of the wheat sold has been supplied to the Australian Wheat Board, it is not known by the Board whether or not therehas been any loss.
  3. The New South Wales State Wheat Office is under the control of the Government of New South Wales, and, therefore, any requests for the investigation of the working of that office should be made to the Premier of the State.. The Minister of Agriculture for New South Wales explained the circumstances of the Georgeson sale to a full meeting of the. Australian Wheat Board in May, at which growers’ representatives from all the States were present.

page 10672

QUESTION

NORTHERN TERRITORY

Appointment to Advisory Council

Mr RICHARD FOSTER:
WAKEFIELD, SOUTH AUSTRALIA · ANTI-SOC; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; LP from 1922; NAT from 1925

asked the Minister for Home and Territories, upon notice -

Whether the Mr. H. G. Nelson appointed to the Advisory Council in the. Northern Territory is the person who organized the riot at Darwin on the 20th December last, when the effigy of Dr. Gilruth was burnt before the Government House, and violence was done to the person of the Administrator and other Government officials?

Mr GLYNN:
NAT

-The Mr. Nelson mentioned was one of those present on the occasion referred to, and subsequently, in relation to what took place, was charged on information with assault. A conviction resulted, which was upset on appeal by the Acting Supreme Court Judge of the Territory. The question of appeal to the High Court is under consideration.

page 10672

QUESTION

NAVIGATION ACT PROCLAMATION

Mr.WALLACE asked the Acting Prime Minister, upon notice -

Whether it is intended to issue a proclamation bringing the Navigation Act into operation?

If so, on what date will the proclamation be issued ? 3.. Has; the British Government any objection to the Act being proclaimed law?

If so, what is. the objection?

Mr WATT:
NAT

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

  1. Yes.
  2. The Government hope to give an early intimation as to the date on which the Navigation Act will be brought into operation. Meanwhile all necessary steps are being taken to prepare the preliminary work. 3 and 4. The Act has received the Royal Assent, but, owing to shipping difficulties connected with the war, the British Government desired that the Act should not be proclaimed. The Commonwealth Government consented to this course being taken;but it is not anticipated, now that the war is over, that amy further difficulty will be raised.

page 10672

QUESTION

WOOL-SCOURING PLANTS

Mr LISTER:
CORIO, VICTORIA

asked the Acting

Prime Minister, upon notice -

  1. Will he state what are the number and names of owners of wool-scouring plants, prewar and at present, respectively - (a) in Melbourne; (b) in Geelong?
  2. The plant (giving capacity in bales per eight hours’ shift) operating at each of such works - (a) pre-war;(b) at present?
  3. What quantity of wool has been supplied to each of such wool-scouring works by the Central Wool Committee from 1st January, 1919, to date?
  4. Were any wool-scouring plants (and, if so, which) permitted to work more than one shift of eight hours during the abovementioned period?
  5. If such permission was granted in some cases was it refused in others?
  6. If so, why?
Mr WATT:
NAT

– I shall have inquiries made, and furnish the honorable member with a reply as soon as possible.

page 10672

QUESTION

PEACE CELEBRATIONS

Sale of Intoxicants

Mr.FINLAYSON asked the Acting Prime Minister, upon notice -

  1. Whether the Cabinet had yet considered the matter of prohibiting the sale of intoxicating liquors on the day appointed for the celebration of Peace?
  2. If so, what decision has been arrived at?
  3. If not, when is it proposed to decide the question ?
Mr WATT:
NAT

– The answers to the honorable member’s questions are as follow : -

  1. Not yet.
  2. See answerto No. 1.
  3. Indue time.

page 10673

POST AND TELEGRAPH DEPARTMENT

Forage Allowances

  1. Whether he will state if it is his intention to pay increased forage allowance to mounted postmen and assistants as from 1st May, 1910?
  2. If so, at what rate? and
  3. When will such payments bemade?
  4. Has the Minister yet finalized the many applications from mail contractors asking for forage allowance on account of the drought and the increased priceof chaff, oats, &c ?
Mr WATT:
for Mr. Webster · NAT

– Inquiries arebeing made, and replies will be furnished as early as possible. repatriation.

Mr POYNTON:
NAT

– On the 26th June, the honorable member for Calare (Mr. Pigott) asked -

Whether all the privileges enjoyed by returned soldiers under the Repatriation Act will be extended to nurses,includinglandsettlement?

To which the following reply was given -

Under the Repatriation Act, members of the Army Medical Corps Nursing Service accepted or appointed for service outside Australia are regarded as returned soldiers,and are therefore eligible for all thebenefits of that Act. Inquiries arebeing made as to whether nurses are included in the land-settlement legislation of theseveralStates. The honorable member will be informed of theresult of these inquiries.

I am now able to supply the following additional information -

Nurses are included in the land settlement schemes of New South Wales and Victoria, but not in those of theother States.

page 10673

QUESTION

COMMONWEALTH AIR FORCE

Mr WISE:
NAT

– On the2nd July,the honorable member forCorio (Mr. Lister) asked -

As a scheduleof pay has beendrawn up, provisionallly, forthe Commonwealth AirForces, does the Assistant Minister for Defence regard £2 a week, the amount proposed to be paid to privates in the new Air Force, as a living wage, especially in view of the fact that no additional allowance is proposed for board or clothing? As many of these men have served their country at the Front,and aremarried, and have families,will heconfer with the Acting Minister for Defence with a view to revising the proposed rates.

I am now able to furnish the honorable member with the f ollowing information: -

No regulationshave yet been gazetted with regard tothe pay for the personnel of the proposed Air Force.

page 10673

COMMERCIAL ACTIVITIES BILL

Second Reading

Mr GROOM:
Minister for Works and Railways and Acting AttorneyGeneral · Darling Downs · NAT

– I move -

That this Bill be now read asecondtime.

I dealt with this measure so fully upon the motion for leave to introduce ft that I desire merely to add one or two particulars arising from questions which have been put to me. If honorable members willexamine the Bill they will note that it purports to continue in force the regulations set out in extenso in the schedules. Those are actually the regulations in operation to-day. The Bill, with its schedules, has embodied all existing regulations on each (particular activity concerned, and has consolidated them.

Mr Higgs:

– Do you see no. reason for amending them in any way?

Mr GROOM:

– The regulations were framed by theGovernmentas being necessary for the conduct of the activities in question. If honorable members will study the schedules they will perceive thatopposite to each particular amendment of the original regulationthereappears the date of that amendment. The whole item appears in theform of a consolidated group. Take, for example, the subject of dairy produce. Icall attention to Part2,dealing with that activity. The principle involved asa declaration that the dairy produce regulations are to continue in force untila prescribed date. The date is fixed upon the basis thatthe Commonwealthhas entered into a contract with the Imperial authorities, which contract expires on the date prescribed.

Mr Fleming:

– This Bill is only intended to cover the period for which those contracts were made, and after that they automatically cease?

Mr GROOM:

– The regulations are to continue in operation until the dates prescribed. Power remains with the Government, however, to amend or alter regulations if the necessity arises. There is the further provision that where the Dairying Committee, the Wool Pool Committee, and the Flax Committee require to carry on after the expiration of the regulations, those bodies may continue operations to enable them to wind up.

Mr Bamford:

– What position is the flax industry in?

Mr GROOM:

– I have fully set out the whole circumstances, but can sum them up by saying that considerable encouragement has been afforded, and that there has been noteworthy advance in the industry. After the winding up of the Flax Committee’s activities there is no reason why the Commonwealth should not take additional steps to further develop that industry in Australia.

Mr Boyd:

– Is there any power contained iri the Bill to extend the various contracts beyond the periods set out?

Mr GROOM:

– There is not.

Mr Boyd:

– Are there any activities included under any of the regulations except those specified in the Bill itself ?

Mr GROOM:

– This Bill covers certain specified activities, and constitutes the fulfilment of a promise to the House. The Government undertook that if it were deemed necessary to ex: tend any of the War Precautions Regulations beyond the specified period of three months after the expiration of the war, they would ask for specific authority. Two other activities, to which I have not to-day referred, are sugar and wheat. That part of the Bill dealing with sugar is simply a reproduction of existing regulations. In regard to wheat, we ask for authority to ratify the existing agreement, and to enter into a further agreement.

Mr Higgs:

– What is the proposed duration of this measure?

Mr GROOM:

– Its duration is indicated within the Bill’ itself. The dates with respect to the regulations are contained in the definition clause. The scope of the measure itself, however, will cover the winding-up operations of the Committees named.

Mr Riley:

– What position would the various industries be in if this Bill were not passed?

Mr GROOM:

– The whole of the powers of the organizations would immediately go-

Mr Riley:

– We would return to where we were before the war ?

Mr GROOM:

– All the activities concerned would be suddenly thrown into chaos.

Mr Riley:

– But were not those Committees appointed to act only for the duration of the war ?

Mr GROOM:

– That is merely what this Bill proposes.

Mr Riley:

– But this is an extension.

Mr GROOM:

– It is not! Specific dates had to be attached to the contracts in order to give an element of certainty to the activities. That was in the interests of Australia, and of the Empire generally.

Mr Maxwell:

-The Government are seeing the contracts through.

Mr GROOM:

– That is so. In dealing with large concerns it is absolutely essential to be able, to make contracts for definite periods. That has been a great security to Australia to have these contracts made for definite periods. It has led to a feeling of confidence in the community. This Bill covers only the periods of those contracts, and enables these activities to be carried on in order that the contracts may be fulfilled.

Mr Considine:

– Will the honorable gentleman state what the constitutional position will be once the War Precautions Act ceases to operate?

Mr GROOM:

– The constitutional position is that this Parliament has the power to pass the measure I .am now submitting.

Mr Corser:

– Is ample provision made for seed plants to be sent to Queensland ?

Mr GROOM:

– I shall refer to that matter when the Bill is under consideration in Committee.

Mr Considine:

– Will the honorable gentleman state whether the powers proposed to be conferred by this Bill existed constitutionally prior to the passing of the War Precautions Act ?

Mr GROOM:

– I say that we have the power to enact this legislation under the Defence powers of the Commonwealth. I do not wish at this stage to deal with the constitutional aspect of the measure.

Mr Higgs:

– Because the honorable gentleman is aware that that is the main point, and the Government’s weakest point.

Mr GROOM:

– That isnot so. This Bill is certified to as being within the power of this Parliament to pass by an expert committee of eminent lawyers in Australia whose names I have already mentioned. They are Sir Edward Mitchell, Mr. Adrian Knox, Mr. H. E. Starke, Professor Moore (of the Melbourne University), Professor Peden (of Sydney University), and two leading solicitors. They certified that the measure is within the competence of this Parliament to enact. I have fully explained the principles of the measure in a previous speech.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

. -This is the most peculiar Bill that was ever introduced into this Parliament.

Mr Brennan:

– And it was introduced in amost peculiar way.

Mr TUDOR:

– Unfortunately I was not present when the Acting AttorneyGeneral (Mr. Groom) introduced the Bill and made his preliminary speech upon it. The Government Whip last night informed me that it was intended to go on with the consideration of the Bill to-day, and the Minister supplied me with a copy of his speech on the introduction of the measure. We had the power conferred by this Bill before, or we do not possess it now. That is certain. We had the power to deal with these matters under the Constitution, war or no war, or we had not. The gentlemen who certify to the competence of this Parliament to pass this Bill do not refer to the war in any shape or form. The Minister told us that the expert Committee to whom the Bill was referred consisted of Sir Edward Mitchell, K.C., M.A., LL.B. ; Mr. Adrian Knox, K.C., C.M.G. ; Mr. H. E. Starke, Barrister at Law; Mr. T. M. Campbell, LL.M.; Professor Harrison Moore, C.M.G., G.A., LL.D., Professor of Law of the University of Melbourne; Professor the Hon. T. B. Peden, M.L.C., Professor of Law of the University of Sydney; Mr. E. P. Simpson, of Sydney, who subsequently retired and was replaced by Mr. A. M. Hemsley, of Messrs Allen, Allen and Hemsley, solicitors, of Sydney.

Mr.Fenton. - What about Sir Josiah Symon?

Mr TUDOR:

– He was in another State. The gentlemen consulted are from Melbourne or Sydney. The Melbourne members of the Committee, consisting of Sir Edward Mitchell, Mr. Campbell, Mr. Starke, and Professor Harrison Moore, state : -

We have carefully considered this Bill, and are of opinion that it is within the competence of the Commonwealth Parliament.

  1. guarantee that if any firm in Melbourne desires to fight the Commonwealth Government on this matter in the High Court any of these gentlemen will be prepared to accept’ a brief to conduct their case. Every one knows quite well that the High Court would take no notice whatever of the certificate which these gentlemen have given. The Court would consider only the Bill itself, if a case were brought before it under the measure. It would not consider what might have been said in Parliament. ‘ The Court would consider merely whether, in its opinion, the law was valid or not. My hope is that we have this power to fix prices which these gentlemen say that we have. If we have the power to fix the price of sugar until the 30th September, 1920, we have the power to fix the price of any and every commodity which any person consumes in this country.
Mr Boyd:

– And up to 1990.

Mr TUDOR:

– If we have the power to fix the price up to 1920, then I agree with the honorable member that we have the power to fix it up to 1990. My mind goes back to the first case taken under the price-fixing regulations, that of Burvett v. Farey. Burvett was the detective employed by the Department, and Farey was a baker in Kew or Hawthorn. I was a member of the Government at the time that case came before the High Court, and was very much interested to know whether we had the power to deal with price-fixing. The Crown Law Department had up to that date contended that we had no such power. Early in June, 1916, two or three months before I left the Government, a decision on the question was given in the High Court. Chief Justice Griffith said that the case of Burvett v. Farey raised a Defence matter, and that the action of the defendant affected recruiting in the Commonwealth. The question whether the money allotted by a soldier to his dependants was sufficient to buy bread and other commodities depended on their price, and he held that the fixing of the price of bread was within the Defence powers of the Commonwealth.

Mr.Fenton. - Did he not say that the action of the defendant interfered with the conduct of the war, and that the only people who were judges of what was necessary for the conduct of the war were the members of the Executive ?

Mr TUDOR:

– I believe that he said something to that effect. Mr. Justice Bartons, as he always does, said, “ I concur.”

Mr Groom:

– That is not correct, because Mr. Justice Barton gave an exceptionally capable judgment.

Mr TUDOR:

– Then it was exceptional for him to do so.

Mr Groom:

– That is grossly incorrect.

Mr TUDOR:

– Then I will apologize to His Honour Mr. Justice Barton. I do not know whether he is to be the next Chief Justice of the High Court or not, butIdo know that he has on many occasions, when a judgment has been given by Chief Justice Griffith, said “ I concur. I say the same as the Chief Justice says,”

Mr Boyd:

– It would save time if honorable members opposite followed the same practice, after the Leader of the Opposition has spoken.

Mr TUDOR:

– I should favour the adaption of a practice which would enable us to get home at a reasonable time. We were kept here until a quarter to 2 o’clock this morning, and had to come back at 11 o’clock. That is over the odds. I have not had the time to look up this question and read the judgments which have been delivered in connexion with it. I can only speak of them from memory. Mr. Justice Higgins and Mr. Justice Isaacs gave judgments which were in accord with the decisions they have given throughout, backing up the Federal powers and giving them the widest interpretation. Speaking from, memory, in the cases to which I have referred four of the Judges of the High Court said that we have the power to deal with the fixing of prices. I think that Mr. Justice Duffy and Mr. Justice Rich said that we have not that power.

The gentlemen who have given their certificate in connexion with this measure say that we have the power . The New South Wales members of the Committee supplied the following certificate: -

We have carefully considered this Bill, and are of opinion that it is within the competence of the Commonwealth Parliament, subject,, as regards. Part IV. (Sugar)., to the proviso that the Bill becomes law before the termination of the war.

I may mention that the part dealing with sugar is the only part of the Bill in which specific reference is made to price fixing, although there is a reference to it in one of the butter regulations. The proviso which the Sydney members of the Committee consider necessary means that any Bill which we desire to pass dealing, with price fixing, must be passed before the termination of the war and Mr. Hemsley telegraphed to say -

Knox and I understand “termination of war” to be “exchange of ratifications.”

According to these gentlemen, who take the most circumscribed view of the matter, to be valid this. Bill, or any part dealing with price fixing and any provision of the kind introduced into it, must be passed before the exchange of ratification’s.

Mr Hector Lamond:

– They do not say that anything which may be put into the Bill will be legal, but that the continuance of existing contracts will be legal. There are no new contracts, in the Bill

Mr TUDOR:

– If we have the power to deal with this matter nearly twoyears after the signing of the armistice and about fifteen months after the signing of peace, I say that we have the power to deal with it for an indefinite period.

The Acting Attorney-General (Mr. Groom), in dealing with the dairy produce regulations, said, in reference to the dairy season -

This season will terminate on the 31st August, 1920, and the Bill provides for the extension of the regulations up to that date.

If honorable members will look at the regulations dealing with dairy produce set out in the schedule they will find that they cover six or seven pages of the measure, though there is only one line dealing with the subject in the Bill itself. There are some amendments that I desire to move in the Dairy Produce Regulations when we reach the Committee stage. In reference to. the Dairy Produce Control Committee, the Acting Attorney-General (Mr. Groom), when introducing the Bill, said -

It was decided, therefore, to form a Pool to provide against this expected shortage. Committees chosen by the dairying and commercial interests concerned were set up in the various States, with a central committee, of which the Chief Prices Commissioner in Melbourne was the chairman. A conference was held in Melbourne, and another, later on, in Sydney, at which certain recommendations were made and approved by the Government.

The honorable gentleman then referred to the amount of butter dealt with, and went on to say -

The Committee consisted of the Minister - who is chairman - a deputy chairman appointed by the Minister, three nominees of the Commonwealth Government, the Commonwealth Dairy Expert, two representatives for each of the States of New South Wales, Victoria, and Queensland in respect of the butter factories in those States, one representative for each of the States of South Australia and Tasmania in respect of the butter factories in those States, and one representative for each of the States of New South Wales, Victoria, and Queensland in respect of the cheese factories, in those States. The representatives of the producers in the various States were elected’ by ballot held on 14th October, 1918. Immediately upon the ballot being taken the Committee formerly in existence voluntarily retired and handed over to the newly-elected body……

It will be observed that the Commonwealth Dairy Expert is. to have no vote ; that is, the only employee of the Commonwealth Government who is on the Committee is not allowed to vote, although the employees of the State Governments are. As I pointed out the other evening, there are fifteen persons on this Committee, and, although the producers, the manufacturers’ agents, and others are represented, there is no representative of the consumers. If I, when Minister of Customs, had appointed a committee consisting of fifteen consumers only, without any representation for producers or agents, what would have been said?I trust that, in Committee, honorable members will see the advisability of providing for at least some representation of the consumers, who are certainly as important and as much entitled to it as. are producers and agents. The Acting Attorney- General will, I hope, agree that on all committees of the kind, not only employers, buyers and sellers - the latter of whom produce nothing, being merely agents or brokers - but also consumers, shall be represented. Speaking of brokers, I remember ex-Senator Trenwith, at the time of the Kyabram movement, some years ago, saying that it was worked by “ sharebrokers, pawnbrokers, and stony-brokers ‘ ‘ ; and I certainly think the consumers will be the “ stony- brokers ‘ ‘ if they are not allowed to have some say in the fixing of prices.

We require information in regard to some of the regulations, which are certainly the most important part of the Bill - indeed, one regulation is more important than the whole of the fourteen clauses. No. 5 of the Dairy Produce Regulations is as follows: -

Members of the Committee, other than the Minister, may be paid, from moneys held by the Committee, such sums as remuneration or expenses as the Minister may from time to time authorize;

The Government, of course, are all. powerful, and may appoint whom they like, and pay themembers of the Committee as they choose; and it is in regard to this that information is necessary. We know the personnel of various Pools, and are told that in connexion therewith certain gentlemen give their services free.

Mr Fenton:

– Not under this Bill.

Mr TUDOR:

– They may or may not give their services.

Mr Fenton:

– They are entitled to payment.

Mr TUDOR:

– Of course; members of the Pool have been entitled to pay all along, and some have received it for outofpocket expenses, and, no doubt for servicesrendered. I remember that when the Labour party were in office, some of the gentlemen now on the Government benches were very persistent with questions as to what this or . that member of any committee received for his services; and it is only fair that information of that kind should be given now.

Mr McDonald:

– They are all patriots !

Mr TUDOR:

-They may be, of course; but if any aregiving their services, no matter whether it be the honorable member for Moreton (Mr. Sinclair), who is deputy-chairman of the Butter Control Board, or Sir John Higgins, who is chairman of the Wool Committee

Mr Groom:

– The honorable member knows that Sir John Higgins has been doing this work gratuitously.

Mr TUDOR:

– I believe he has.

Mr Groom:

– And no man has done more work.

Mr TUDOR:

– Other people have, also done good work, though they have not been in the limelight. If any members of these committees have been giving their services gratuitously the fact ought, in justice to them, to be made public.

Mr Hector Lamond:

– Are they paid by the Pool or by the Government?

Mr TUDOR:

– I take it that they are paid by the Pool.

Mr Hector Lamond:

– Then the payments will not be extravagant.

Mr TUDOR:

– I presume the payments are made out of the moneys of the Pool, and not out of the Commonwealth revenue.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– In all the cases of which I have any knowledge the committees are paid by the Pools.

Mr TUDOR:

– So far as I know there has never yet been a complete statement of the operations of some of these Pools; and so long as only one interest is represented we are not likely to get any statement! Possibly the Minister for Trade and Customs (Mr. Greene) thinks that only one’ section of the community is entitled to representation. When I was Minister for Trade and Customs - a position which my generous friends on the press said I occupied by pure accident - I was accused of concerning myself with one interest only.

Mr Brennan:

– It must have been more than an accident, and rather a coincidence, because the honorable member was Minister several times.

Mr TUDOR:

– In any case, it was said that I was concerned with only one interest, and that was the interest of the consumer. My opinion, however, is that all sections have a right to be represented.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Canyou tell me what interest of the consumer his representative could conserve in the business management of a business, apart from the price, which the Committee does not control.

Mr TUDOR:

– But the Government have the control, and will take the advice of the members of the Committee. Any Minister must have expert advice, for no matter who or what he is, he cannot know everything about everything.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– That is true.

Mr TUDOR:

– The Department of Trade and Customs has to be continually calling in experts, and probably to-day experts are being consulted in every State of the Commonwealth.

Mr Bamford:

– And a very wise thing.

Mr TUDOR:

– Of course.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– The consumer is concerned only with price and quality. Quality is fixed by the Government graders, and the Chief Prices Commissioner fixes the price on the evidence tendered.

Mr TUDOR:

– But directly this Bill is passed, the Chief Prices Commissioner will find his work finished.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member is quite in error. The powers of the Chief Prices Commissioner under the War Precautions regulations are incorporated in the Bill, and will continue.

Mr TUDOR:

– An election must take place before September, 1920, and before the operations of the Butter Pool come to an end; and it is within the bounds of possibility that the present Government may be displaced.

Mr West:

– That is a foregone conclusion.

Mr TUDOR:

– As to that, I am, perhaps, as little concerned as any man in the House. According to the Minister for Trade and Customs, the Chief Pricefixing Commissioner, Mr. Whitton, retains his position under this Bill.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– For the purposes of the Bill he does.

Mr TUDOR:

– That is in the ease of butter and sugar; and I contend that if we have the power in regard tobutter and sugar, we have the power in the case of a great number of other commodities.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Can the honorable member give us his legal authority for that statement ?

Mr TUDOR:

– We are told by the Legal Committee which inquired into the matter that it is within the competence of Parliament to pass this Bill dealing with price fixing.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Yes, in regard to two commodities.

Mr TUDOR:

– Quite so ; and I should like the Minister to show me the section of the Constitution providing that we have power to deal in this way regarding only two commodities, leaving us no power to deal with any other commodities. The idea is absurd.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– Will the honorable member give us his legal authority?

Mr TUDOR:

– I am speaking in accord with what the Acting AttorneyGeneral has told me.

Mr Groom:

– You are not speaking in accord with anything I have said.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member is misrepresenting what the Acting AttorneyGeneral said.

Mr Groom:

– When did I say that we could pass legislation providing for price fixing in regard to any other commodities ?

Mr TUDOR:

– On page 3 of the published report of his speech on the introduction of this Bill, the honorable gentleman said that certain gentlemen, includ ing himself, had supplied the following certificate: -

We have carefully considered the Bill, and are of opinion that it is within the competence of the Commonwealth Parliament.

That does not say we must stop at these two articles. We either have no power to deal with price fixing at all, or we have power to fix the prices of any number of articles.

Mr MASSY-GREENE:
Minister for Trade and Customs · RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES · LP; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member either cannot or will not understand.

Sitting suspended from 1 to 2.15 p.m.

Mr TUDOR:

– When the sitting was suspended, I was referring to the opinion given as to the constitutionality of this Bill by the Melbourne members of the Legal Committee. That opinion reads -

We have carefully considered this Bill, and are of opinion that it is within the competence of the Commonwealth Parliament.

But the questions submitted to these gentlemen had reference to only two commodities, namely, butter and sugar, and to a limited period of time, and I desire to know whether they would not have given the same answer if the Bill had covered an unlimited number of articles, and an unlimited period of time.

Mr Fleming:

– Might not the fact that we have a limited number of contracts to fulfil affect the situation ?

Mr TUDOR:

– No. Either we have the power to deal with: these particular commodities, or we have not. That is the common-sense view ofthe matter.

Mr Fleming:

– Acts are not always interpreted according to common sense.

Mr TUDOR:

– No. It is well-known that legal gentlemen are prepared to give an opinion either way. Everything depends upon the manner in which the questions are put to them.

Mr Groom:

– The honorable member means that upon some questions differences of opinion arise.

Mr TUDOR:

– I know that a question was submitted to one of the highest legal authorities in Australia, whose answer was,”Yes. You can do that.” Subsequently that opinion was withdrawn, and he said, “ No. You cannot do that. I forgot that I had given an opinion in the other direction.”

Mr.Groom. - As a rule the members of the legal profession give a conscientious opinion.

Mr TUDOR:

– And theywill give it either way, according to the sidewhich briefs them.

Mr Groom:

– I know the high traditions that govern the profession.

Mr Riley:

– Will the Acting AttorneyGeneral state his own views on this constitutional question ?

Mr TUDOR:

– The Acting AttorneyGeneral has not given his opinion except in conjunction with that of the gentlemen who were members of the Legal Committee. They have affirmed that this Bill is within thecompetence of this Parliament.

Mr Mathews:

– That may have been only a majority opinion.

Mr Groom:

– It wasa unanimous opinion.

Mr TUDOR:

– In other words, theCommittee said, “ You have asked us whether the Commonwealth Parliament has power to fixthe prices of sugar and of butter until August and September, respectively, of 1920, and we say that ithas.” What would have been their answer had they beenasked whether Parliament bad power to fix the price of every commodity without any limitation as to time? The honorable member for Henty (Mr. Boyd) looks as if he is about to make an interjection. I think I can anticipate him by saying that if we havepower to fix the price of two articles, we have power to fix the priceof a hundred and twoarticles. If we have power to determine the prices oftwo commodities untilSeptember, 1920, we have power to determine those prices until September, 1990:

Mr Boyd:

– If we have the power to fix the prices of the commodities covered by this Bill, it is because the War Precautions Act is still operative. But shall we possess that power after that Acthas ceased to operate?

Mr TUDOR:

– Messrs. Knox and Hemsley, two of the Sydney members of the Committee, have also declared -

We havecarefully considered this Bill, and are of opinion that it is within the competence of the Commonwealth Parliament, subject, as regards Part 4 (Sugar), to the proviso that the Bill becomes law before the termination of the war.

Messrs. Knox and Hemsley affirm that “termination ofwar ‘” means the “‘exchange of ratifications.” Their straightout opinion, therefore, is that we possess the requisite power.

Mr Higgs:

– That is the shortest legal opinionever given by anybody of men.

Mr Boyd:

– Itall depends upon haw much they were paid for it.

Mr TUDOR:

– The Acting AttorneyGeneral says that they havegiventheir servicesgratuitously.

Mr Boyd:

– Therefore,the shorter opinion.

Mr TUDOR:

– In all probability it is a very good opinion. Some timeago I was speaking to one of our Judges upon the work of the Arbitration Court. I was told that the High Court had been worrying for weeks to discover what constituted an industrialdispute. This Judge told me thathe hadhad awitness before him to whom he put thequestion, What is an industrial dispute?” The witness immediately replied,. “When I ask the boss for a rise, and be says that he will notgive it to me, then you have an industrial dispute.”

Mr Boyd:

– I supposethatthe Court would argue in thesame way over the question of whether there is a strike in existence at the present time.

Mr TUDOR:

– Most people would say that there is an industrial dispute in our midst. The Government propose in this Bill to deal with only four or five commodities. They have already fixed the price of sugar. Under this measure they desireto fix the price of every commodity exported overseas. But, while we send only about one-fifth of ourbutter production (overseas, it must be remembered that the whole ofthesugar manufactured in Australia is consumed locally, and that we are obliged to import more. It is now proposed to fix the price of this article, not only at the mill, but also the priceat which it shall be retailed. Consequently the Legal Committee, by their opinion, affirmed that this Parliamentpossesses the power to fix the wholesale and retail price of sugar until September,1920. While the present juncture practically marks the termination of the War Precautions Act and of the regulations framed under it, it is significant that the ‘Government are anxious to abandon -their power ito. control prices. They have accordingly (banded this power over to the States, saying, “ We must nc longer deal with this matter.” Yet, according to the opinion which I have quoted, they ‘possess the power to deal with it. eternally, so long as we pass the Bill before the “ exchange of ratifications.”

It is interesting to look back upon the history of this sugar business. Within four or five weeks of the outbreak of war, the party which I have the honour to lead was returned ‘by the electors of this country with a majority. Within a period of twenty-four hours after the Labour Ministry was sworn in, it prohibited the export of sugar, which had reached a very high price overseas. Wo thus saved the local consumer many thousands of pounds. If we possess the power to fix the price of sugar until the 30th ‘September, 1920, I unhesitatingly say that we possess -the power to fix the price of any other commodity. To-day we are not sending a pound of sugar outside of Australia. The -position which it occupies is quite! different from -that of wool or butter, which :we are exporting. But why does not the Bill extend to shipping? When the War Precautions Act was before this Parliament, and many of us protested against its extension, we were assured that if shipping were re0leased the ship-owners would immediately increase freights and fares. The Acting Prime Minister (Mr. Watt), stated that if shipping were released, and if we did not allow the ship-owners to increase freights and fares, they would withdraw their vessels from Australian waters. But I contend that if the Government can’ control sugar they can also control shipping. Wo were told not long ago that ship-owners would be able to sell their ships for double the price at which they stood in their books -at that time. During the first twelve months of the war ustrailiion ship-owners were ‘anxious to sell their vessels outside of the Commonwealth. The honorable’ member for

Henty (Mr. Boyd) knows that perfectly well. A number of those ships were somewhat out of date, but nobody then imagined that the war would be such a protracted one. The ship-owners at that time were under the impression that -they would- ‘be able to replace their vessels with new and up-to-date ships at a less price than they would get for their own out-of-date vessels. In all probability, had they been as wise then as they are to-day, they would not have been anxious to dispose of them. We know that shipping is essential to Australia, since it is impossible to reach some parts of the Commonwealth except by steam. At an early hour this morning the honorable member for Franklin (Mr. McWilliams) called attention to the isolation of Tasmania, and I certainly think that if the Government have power to deal with sugar in this way they have power to deal with shipping. Since the Legal Committee, to whom this measure was referred, say that it is within the competence of the Parliament to pass it, it must be admitted that the Government have just as much power to deal with the shipping industry as they have to control sugar. With the exception of the sugar industry, none of the interests covered by this Bill will be likely to contest it, inasmuch as they will be better off under it than they would be without it.

Mr McWilliams:

– Those engaged in the shipping industry may contest it in the High Court.

Mr TUDOR:

– That is very likely.

I do not know what will be the position of the meat industry under this measure. In the early days of the war the Queensland Parliament passed a Sugar Acquisition Bill, under which the State Government have since dealt with many other commodities. Indeed, it may be said that the whole of the commercial activities of the Queensland State Government have been carried out under it. Meat was acquired under it to enable the contract which the Denham Government entered into with the Imperial authorities to be carried out. Beef and mutton, under that contract, were to be supplied at fixed prices, which have been varied from time to time, and in all probability, notwithstanding that the war is over, that contract will continue to operate. The position is, therefore, that beef and mutton will continue to be controlled under the Queensland State legislation, and wool will be controlled under this Bill, whereas hides will not be dealt with.

In to-day’s Argus there appears the following telegraphic report from Adelaide : -

Adelaide. - The Prices Commission sat on Thursday, when the leather industry was under consideration. J. M. Reid,’ tanner, stated that under normal conditions Australian tanners readily obtained all the hides they required, and turned out a big quantity of leather, which gave an exportable surplus of 25 per cent. On the declaration of war, the Australian hide and leather markets were greatly upset, and hides fell considerably in value, as there was no opportunity to export. Subsequently, British tanners wanted Australian hides, and opportunities were afforded for shipments to Great Britain. The prices of hides then gradually rose, until, early in February last, light hides were up 60 per cent., medium hides from 43 per cent., and heavy hides from 54 per cent. Leather values advanced in a relative ratio.

As stated by the honorable member for Hunter (Mr. Charlton), in the course of the debate on the Ministerial statement, since February last the price of hides has increased to the extent of nearly 50 per cent., so that if there had been an increase of 54 per cent, up to February last, the increase to-day, as compared with the price before the embargo was imposed, is practically 100 per cent. According to some figures that I obtained from Mr.Knibbs, the price of heavy hides before the imposition of the embargo was less than ls. per lb., whereas to-day it is over ls. Sd. per lb.

Mr CHARLTON:
HUNTER, NEW SOUTH WALES

– The prices are practically double what they were before the embargo was imposed.

Mr TUDOR:

– That is so. That embargo was imposed while I held office as Minister for Trade and Customs. A point that needs to be emphasized is that the advantage of this great increase in the price of hides has not been reaped by the producer. I make bold to say that hundreds of thousands of hides were held by the big mea t companies. They purchased their beef on the hoof at from 40s. to” 60a. per cwt., and would estimate to receive about 55s. for a heavy hide, or, at 13d. per lb., about 60s. ‘ Since then, as I have said,, the price of hides has gone up to ls. 8d. per lb., so that the meat companies are reaping the advantage of the enormous increase. Those who have leather stocks are also reaping the advantage of the increase in leather values. The Government, however, say that they will leave the State Governments to deal with the price of meat, that they themselves will control the wool, but that the hides and pelts shall be free from governmental control. Every person in the community is being called upon to pay higher prices for his boots because of the failure of the Government to control the hides. The Acting Attorney-General (Mr. Groom) should tell us at once whether the Government have power to deal with hides and pelts. According to’ a report of the InterState Commission, if a man goes to a timber merchant for building material he is told that he -must buy from that firm everything he wants for his building, otherwise he will not be supplied. The Government, in the same way, should say in respect of all these matters, “ All or none.”

Mr Jowett:

– The honorable member is aware that the Government has not attempted to control the price of boots.

Mr TUDOR:

– I am aware of .that, but although this Bill affords an opportunity to go into the whole question of price fixing, I do not intend to deal with the question in detail to-day. I have not the slightest intention of going into the whole question of unrestricted price fixing when dealing with this Bill. Let me quote further from the evidence given before the Price Fixing Commission -

The Commonwealth Government then decided to regulate the prices of hides, leather, and boots. A conference was called, and a basis for increases on pre-war rates was determined, ranging from 33 per cent, on light hides to 38 per cent.- for heavy hides. Taking a leading line of sole leather between July, l914, and .July, 1919, there had been an increase of 87$ per cent, in the price, but an exceedingly dangerous period had been entered, which had filled up the tanneries’ with hides.

If the Government have power to control the price of one commodity, they ought to have power to control that of another. The Bill practically admits that they have. The legal gentlemen who have given an opinion say that the Commonwealth have the absolute power to control wool and wheat. If the Commonwealth can control two matters it ought to be able to control more than “two. But possibly the whole thing is illegal. If the question should come before the High Court, no cognisance will be taken of any opinion given by legal gentlemen- or of any speech delivered in this House. The question will be decided on its merits only and in accordance with the enacted law.

Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– Does the honorable member object to the Minister fortifying himself with the opinion of the best men available ?

Mr TUDOR:

– Before lunch I said that it was the duty of every Minister to get the best opinion available, so that he might avoid making mistakes. On the question of the examination of the lighthouses of Australia, upon which the Commonwealth proposed to spend a considerable sum of money in order to bring them up to date, I called into consultation in my office the chairman of the Steam-ship Owners Federation and the secretary of the Merchant Service Guild, although they were having a controversy in the newspapers at the time, and, apparently, were not friendly. I asked for their assistance in making a choice from among the persons who had tendered their services to do the work. Both gentlemen readily acceded to my request. I hold that if a Minister will not seek assistance he is not worthy of holding office. A man makes a big mistake who sets himself up to be an expert in everything. In fact, the person who knows all about everything is generally a “ mug.” “When the . Fisher Government were in office a Bill was brought forward in which it was proposed to ask the High Court to give a decision as to the constitutionality of any measure. It was an unusual procedure, aud I do not know that the’ Court was ever asked to give such a decision ; but it is not a bad idea for Parliament to ask the Court whether it has the constitutional power to legislate in any particular direction.

There is one matter in which the Government will have absolute power to fix prices. “We have committed ourselves to an expenditure of £50,000,000 on homes for soldiers, and I commend to the notice of the Assistant Minister for Repatriation (Mr. Poynton) the report of the InterState Commission on Rents and Building Combines, dealing with the increase in the cost of building. If, according to the sworn evidence given before the Commission, we do not fix prices, those gentlemen who control the supply of materials for building purposes will do so. On page 21 the Commissioners comment upon the action of the New South Wales Government in establishing a State brickworks, and quote the report of the State AuditorGeneral dealing with this matter. This is what the report says -

The manager of the State Brickworks gave evidence, and produced the Auditor-General’s reports on the workings pf this enterprise. The works sell common bricks at 38s. 6d. per 1,000, as against the Combine price of 50s. per 1,000.

They have since raised the price by 2s. 6d. per thousand.

Operations began in 1911, and the financial results, according to the Auditor-General’s report, 191S, have been remarkable. He states (pages 1-2) - “Accumulated profits- at 30th June, 1918, were £23,022 Ss. 9d., or 26.94 per cent.: reserve for renewals, £27,489 15s. 6d., or 31.36 per cent.; amounting in all to £51,112 4s. 3d., or 58.30 per cent, of the capital employed. In addition to- the declared profits, direct savings to the extent of £68,470 18s. 2d., on account of Government services, must be taken into consideration. These savings were effected by Government services, but also the general public participated in these reduced prices, though necessarily such estimates are not included. It will thus be seen that the profits were £23,622 8s. 9d., plus the savings of £68,470 188. 2d., or, in all, £92,093 6s. lid., a sum in excess of the capital employed, viz., £87,669, bv which amount the State has benefited.”

Mr Poynton:

– Did the honorable member hear the answer I gave this morning with regard to bricks and -timber for soldiers’ houses ?

Mr TUDOR:

– I believe the honorable member said that the Repatriation Department intended to follow the example of New South Wales in this respect. On page 11 of the Inter-State Commission’s report we find the following: -

The following comparison of the total cost of building in 1914 and 1918, and the distribution of that cost into the principal items of material and labour, was supplied by a Sydney builder of wide experience in the class of construction dealt with: - Brick cottage with fiverooms, including kitchen and bath, and labour- 1914, £131 6s.; 1918, £146 3s.

Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– The honorable member does not object to that?

Mr TUDOR:

– No; but the cost of material increased in the same period from £278 to £410. The cost of the material in 1918 was more than the cost of material and labour combined in 1914.

Mr Groom:

– Does the honorable member know how much of that material was imported ?

Mr Boyd:

– Do not forget also, that the cost of material goes up because the cost of production increases owing to advances in wages.

Mr TUDOR:

– The report states that various trade associations or combinations are dealing with building material, and exercising a rigid control in fixing prices as well as in regulating distribution. If the Government do not fix prices, outside organizations of employers will do so. It is better for the Government to take this course. The Bill, in my judgment, does not go far enough with regard to them. Instead of asking the Legal Committee whether the Government ha? power to deal with these particular items, they should have asked whether power was not vested in the Government to deal with every item in regard to price-fixing. I believe we have the power, and now that the war is over any failure on the part of the Government to control these matters cannot be excused because we are in a state of war, as was urged in the Burvett v. Farey case, which came before Chief Justice Griffith. The Acting Attorney-General has stated that we have power to deal with the matters referred to in the Bill, but I think we have a great deal more power under the Constitution than many of us have been led to believe.

Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I intend to speak for only a few minutes on one or two salient features of this Bill. I should like to compliment the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Tudor) upon his marvellous industry. He must have spent many hours going into all the details of this measure, but, notwithstanding his industry, his speech will land him nowhere. He reminds me very much of an occasion when he introduced a Bill on the subject of navigation in this House. He sat at the table with nobody behind him, as all the members of his party were upstairs. They had gone through the Bill and left it to the Minister. He sat at the table while I made a speech from the opposite side of the House, occupying about an hour and a half, in which I brought to bear all the knowledge I possessed, covering many years of experience of shipping and the law, and simply nodded his head at me very much like a Chinese toy. In the end he did not make one single amendment. I am afraid he has been beating the wind this afternoon, and that the Minister will probably not make one alteration in the Bill as the result of the many suggestions he has made.

I take an interest in this measure, because I think I was the leading spirit in opposing an indiscriminate extension for six months of the War Precautions Act last session. It was proposed then to extend the Act with regard to all the activities at that time controlled by the Government. I pointed out that as the war was practically over, we ought, as soon as possible, to return to government by Parliament. I consider that during the last three or four years I have been paid £600 a year for doing nothing because the whole power of Parliament has been vested in heads of Departments. We have been governed by heads of Departments. None of us have had the advantage of knowing what the Ministerial intentions were, as they will be in future explained in Bills to be placed before us for consideration and criticisms. When . the Minister brought forward the Bill for the indiscriminate extension of the

War Precautions Act for six months, I contended that it was altogether too general; that, as the Avar was over, he might pay us the compliment of allowing us to return to parliamentary practice, and have some opportunity of criticising Government activities. With five or six other honorable members I voted against the Bill, and as a consequence of a reduction in the Government majority the Ministry thought it wise to extend the powers for three months only instead of enacting an indiscriminate extension of war powers . for six months. I want to see a’ return to parliamentary government to-day. We are a democratic community, and whether we believe that the man in the street knows as much as we do about politics, we are quite satisfied to regard this House as representing the country and to criticise measures on their merits. I urged at that time that, because of the termina-tion of the war, there was an obligation on the Government to demonstrate the necessity for an extension of any War Precautions Act powers, and that they ought to bring down a Bill at the end of three months indicating what activities it might be thought advisable to still further control. The Government have done that, and I am perfectly satisfied to leave the matter in their hands.

In this measure the Government have enumerated daily produce, wool, sugar, flax, and wheat, which it is desirable further to control. Shipping is not mentioned, and in connexion with that matter I remind the Leader of the Opposition that when he is talking about shipping he always appears to be talking at me, and points his finger at me. One would think, from his general attitude, that I was fortunate enough to possess all the shipping of Australia. Perhaps he would be very much surprised to know that, although I had the honour to manage a very big company for three years, as a ship owner I now take no more interest in shipping except so far as it affects the dividends I receive. I know nothing of the details of purchase, freights, or arrangements, and therefore I would have the honorable member to- understand that, he should shake his finger at some other member, remembering that I know no more about the subject than he ‘does. Asa professional man, I have learned not to use my head for nothing, unless it be foi my own edification and amusement, and ] can assure him that I am just as innocent of all these wicked practices of the snipping rings as he is. I suppose I know about as much of the shipping rings as he does of the rings in the Trades Halls of this country.

The Government have done as I suggested, though I do not say it is in consequence of my observations. They have taken upon themselves the responsibility of stating in . regard to what particular subjects they desire an extension of powers, and, as the Leader of the Opposition has pointed out, they have obtained the best legal talent to advise them as to the effect of existing law and laws which they propose for the future. I am perfectly satisfied, as i. private member, while we are living under the War Precautions Act, to accept the suggestion of the Government as ti the necessity for extending the law in regard to those particular activities. 3 understood the Minister to say that if, as time goes on, ‘they find it necessary to extend powers affecting ‘other activities, they will bring down Bills and consult. Parliament. That being the case, I think the Leader of the Opposition is only beating the wind, and that when the Bill comes out of Committee he will find it haibeen but little altered in consequence oi’ his observations this afternoon.

Mr CHARLTON:
Hunter

.-] differ from the opinion expressed by thf honorable member for Parkes. This is e measure of which Parliament should be exceedingly careful.

Mr BRUCE SMITH:
PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES · FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917

– I, too, think thatMr. CHARLTON . - I am surprised that the honorable gentleman, who possesses legal knowledge, did not attempt to offer an opinion as to the validity o; the Bill, in view of the fact that the wai has terminated,’ and that the War’ Pre cautions Act was passed for the purpose of enabling the Federal authority te operate certain powers during the currency of the war and for six month; thereafter. The honorable gentleman i; quite prepared to accept the decision oi the legal authorities consulted by the Government. ‘ I .do not question that decision, but it appears to me, as a layman, that there is need for some further explanation of the legal decision, because, if, as the Minister (Mr. Groom) stated, the Government must have power under the Constitution to extend the control of some commodities till 1920, and others to an earlier date, there is no reason why. the control should not be extended in regard to all commodities. If that is so, why do the Government tell us that, peace having been restored, certain commodities, the price of which was formerly controlled by the Commonwealth, must now, in accord”ance with the powers of the Constitution’ revert to the control of the States? There must be something wrong in that con7tradictory statement. . If the Government can continue to regulate the prices of sugar, butter, cheese, wheat, and other commodities, surely they can do the same in regard to every commodity; no line of demarcation can be drawn between one set of articles and another. What is legal in respect of one commodity must be legal in respect of others. I find the Minister’s statement a little perplexing. Frequently legislation which has passed this Parliament has been found, when tested in the Courts, to be ultra vires, ind we ought, therefore, to be very careful not to pass legislation that is possibly beyond the province of the Commonwealth. I am not convinced by the legal decision which the Acting AttorneyGeneral has quoted. ‘ The honorable gentleman did not offer his own individual opinion..

Mr Groom:

– Yes, I gave my certificate with the others.

Mr CHARLTON:

– The honorable gentleman did not state his views at length when speaking on the measure: he relied on the certificates of the other legal gentlemen whom the Government consulted. Their opinion may, or may not, be correct. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Tudor) stated that, with one exception, he did not think anybody would appeal to the High Court against this Bill. I, on the contrary, think it is quite probable -that’ every interest that finds itself adversely affected by this legislation in the near future will appeal against it.

Mr McWilliams:

– The statement has been publicly -made that the measure will be tested in regard to sugar.

Mr CHARLTON:

– And if a decision adverse to the Commonwealth is given in respect of sugar, it must have equal application to other controlled commoditiesBut if the sugar companies do not appeal, it is quite possible that other persons will.

Mr McWilliams:

– I think it has been stated also that the Act will be tested in respect of wool.

Mr CHARLTON:

-Do honorable members imagine that, because -the primary producer is not so wealthy as some, of the corporations, he will not test a law which is prejudicial to his interests? The co-operative societies in the dairying industry have accumulated large sums of money, and do honorable members think that they will not test this legislation? We ought to take the precaution of getting sound legal advice as to the position we occupy in regard to this measure.

Mr Atkinson:

– Do not the certificates of the legal gentlemen who have been consulted give us the necessary security ?

Mr CHARLTON:

– I do ‘ not know the nature of ‘ the case that was stated to them. If 1, as a member of a Government, asked certain legal gentlemen if, under the War Precautions Act, I could legally extend the duration of the control of certain commodities, they might reply, “ Yes, as you have full power under the War Precautions Act to do certain thingsin time of war.” But if I were to say, “ Now that Peace is restored, have we power to continue to regulate the prices of these commodities,” .they might give quite a different answer.

Mr Atkinson:

– I understand that the text of this Bill was submitted to them.

Mr CHARLTON:

– I am stating my own view. We know how lawyers differ in their opinions regarding many matters.

Mr Maxwell:

– They differ as muchas doctors do.

Mr CHARLTON:

– I accept the honorable member as an authority on that question. There is considerable- danger in this Bill. If the contention of the Minister is correct, what are we to say t”o. the people when it appears that we have extended the control of certain commodities under this measure, whilst we have permitted to continue unchecked the profiteering in other commodities? We must be logical. Either we can control all commodities, or we can control none. The honorable member for Parkes (Mr. Bruce Smith) said that the Minister will have power to add from time to time to the commodities ‘mentioned in the Bill. If that is so, the Parliament must have power to bring within the scope of the measure all the necessaries of life’, and there can be no justification for permitting profiteering to continue one minute longer. How can we shelter ourselves behind the people by saying that before we can act we must have an amendment of the Constitution? If the opinion upon which the Minister is acting be sound, no amendment of the Constitution is necessary,. I admit that when the Fisher Government were in power we were advised that an amendment of the Constitution was necessary before the Federal Parliament could legally deal with trade and commerce and monopolies. We appealed to the people, and they rejected our proposal. But in the light of the latest legal opinion, it appears as if there is no longer any necessity to take a referendum of the electors; we have the constitutional power to deal with trade if we only care to exercise it. If it be true that we can legally do the things which this Bill seeks to do, I shall not go before the people and shelter myself and Parliament behind the plea that we have no constitutional power. That is a position which the Government will be obliged to face, During the recent debate, whenever any one on this side mentioned the cost of living and pointed out the necessity of this Parliament doing something to regulate it, there was a chorus from the other side to this effect : “ Oh, we cannot do anything; we have not the power. The war is over; it is now a matter for the States.” Even the Minister now sitting at the table said it was. Now we find it is a matter not for the States, but for this Parliament. Why, then, are we shirking our responsibilities? There seems to be no room for argument if that legal opinion is correct. I believe it will be found that this Parliament has not the power that it should have to deal with these matters, but I am not a legal man, and my opinion does not justify the Go vernment, who believe they have the power, in permitting certain things to go from their control, and certain individuals to charge exorbitant prices. R&cently the Leader of the Opposition and myself asked what justification there was for this Parliament permitting the price of boots to rise as it is doing. It can be raised now week after week if those interested wish it. The Minister says that . the reason they allow it is that they no longer have control over them.

Mr Atkinson:

– That is under the Constitution.

Mr CHARLTON:

– That is the cry we get immediately.

Mr Atkinson:

– If this measure is upset it will be for the same reason.

Mr CHARLTON:

– Can we not, then, up to the time that this measure is wiped out, control the question of leather prices? Can we not protect the people until the end of 1920 in regard to boots, clothes, and food?

Mr Atkinson:

– I understood that this Bill deals only with the actual contracts the Government have entered into.

Mr CHARLTON:

– It is not a question of actual contracts, although the Minister puts it that way. The honorable member will find from the schedules that in connexion with the commodities enumerated the prices to be charged to the people of Australia, who have no contracts with the Government, are regulated.

Mr Groom:

– Take butter, for instance. We are under a contract to supply the Imperial Government. There is another contract covering wool. We also have a contract with the Queensland Government in the case of sugar.

Mr CHARLTON:

– So far so good; but the Government take control of the whole of the consumption of the people of Australia in regard to those very commodities, although there is no contract between the people and the Government. This measure not only covers those commodities where they are contracted for, but also where there is no contract in existence. Yet the Government intend to allow some things to go unchecked, and people handling certain lines to make additional profits, because increases” are taking place every day. Those interested are not satisfied for one week. Directly they get an increase, up goes the price again, and we are allowing this fo go on. The honorable member for Wilmot (Mr. Atkinson) says the Constitution will not permit us to interfere, but the Constitution will permit the Government to regulate the price of butter, cheese, sugar, and wool to the people of Australia. If the Constitution permits the Government to do that up to the end of 1920 for certain specified articles, it will permit them to do it for everything that they care to specify in this Bill. This measure, therefore, will not give the satisfaction which the public expect. I question very much whether it will stand the test of an appeal to the High Court. The Government ought to be sure about the constitutionality of any measure that chey bring forth, and get the best legal advice to guide them. We should not be doing certain things, and setting up new Departments, in the dark.

The honorable member for Parkes (Mr. Bruce Smith”) rightly pointed out that we have been governed by Departments for a long time past. I have said the same thing myself here, and many of those Departments have not given the satisfaction that the public expected. Having established that system of government, however, we cannot abandon it all at once. It must be a matter of gradual evolution, and during that evolution the people should be protected in regard to all commodities, and not only in relation to certain specified articles. The dairy farmer has no greater sympathizer in .this House than myself. I know how he and his family have to toil. He has a perfect right to get a fair price for his commodities, and I do not think he is getting more than a fair price now. But what happens between the man that produces and the man who retails the stuff to the consumer? That is where the leakage takes place, and we are making no endeavour to control it. We are allowing those interested a free hand. If, later on, we ask the people to give us greater powers to control these things, Ave shall lay ourselves open to the charge of hypocrisy, because, when we had the power, we would not attempt to exercise it. How is the public protected on the Boards enumerated in the schedules? See Who are on those Boards, and you will find that the consumers have no representatives. If we seriously intend to try to keep down the cost of living, ‘and to do what is right between man and man - out guiding principle in fixing prices should be to see that the man who produces gets a fair return to enable him to keep his family in decent comfort and provide for old age, and also that the consumer gets a fair deal - we should give both sides representation on these controlling Boards. Whoever represents the general public on the Boards will be able, to put the point of view of the consumer. Surely he will carry some weight, and he may be able to prevent exorbitant charges being made to the people of Australia.

The Minister says we have contracts for certain things entered into by these Boards. The Boards seem always to take the ruling price abroad as the guiding principle, and then expect the people here, in a country which produces in abundance, to pay exactly the same as they would have to pay in other parts of the world which depend on us for supplies; although so many miles of sea roll between us and them that the cost in freight alone to carry our commodities to them represents a good deal of money. Even then tremendous profits are made out of our produce. The Boards persist in regarding the needs of our own people from the stand-point of the demands of the people abroad, and this is due to the fact that only one class is represented on them - that is, those directly concerned in the commodities which are dealt with. That sort of thing should not continue. Now that the Minister proposes to prolong these controls until the and of 1920, why does he not invite the House to alter the composition of the Boards? Why does he not provide for representatives of the consumers to have seats on those bodies during the remainder of the term? The honorable member for Grampians (Mr. Jowett) told us the other night that his Board did not charge the same for wool here as they exported it for. That may be so, but it does not follow that they are not charging too much to the people of Australia even then. It is quite ‘ possible, if there were representa- tives on that Board looking after the interests of the consumers, that they might find it necessary to urge that even less should be charged here for wool, in order to enable the people of Australia to get their clothing much cheaper.

Mr Wallace:

– And that certain stipulations should be made to the manufacturers.

Mr CHARLTON:

– Quite so; but those who have to pay for these commodities have no voice in the matter. We regulate the price of sugar, for instance, throughthe Customs Department. A few months ago the honorable member for Newcastle (Mr. Watkins) and myself got a surprise. The co-operative people asked us to meet them at Newcastle, and pointed out what the wholesale merchants were doing. When I speak of the wholesale merchants, I invite honorable members to look at the Inter-State Commission’s report on groceries,and see who they are. They are called the Co-operative Distribution Company, and certain wholesale firms are members. They fix the prices. Manufacturers have to supply them, and they distribute to the retailers. It is claimed that they are fixing exorbitant prices. This wholesale Co-operative Distribution Company evidently had sufficient influence to deal with the Government in regard to sugar. A certain rebate was given to all who bought sugar from that source. But it is strange that the various co-operative societies, which belong to the consumers themselves, and are not capitalistic concerns, did. not secure the rebate which was allowed to other storekeepers. The co-operative societies in my district, where they are strongly established and have their own wholesale society, could not get sugar on the same terms as other retailers, although it is a commodity which the Government are regulating.

Mr Sampson:

– I think you willfind that that has now been remedied.

Mr CHARLTON:

– It had not been until very recently. Why should it have occurred at all, when we had the sugar ourselves ? Why did the Government, who had charge of the sugar and its distribution, permit those middlemen, who produce nothing to decide what re-, bate ought to be paid, and to whom it should be allowed ?

Mr Corser:

– I think the honorable member is mistaken. There is no such arrangement, so far as I know.

Mr CHARLTON:

– I was supplied direct with facts and figures some three or four months ago. This all goes to show that the consumers ought to be represented on the Boards; that is all I urge. If there is to be an extension until the end of 1920, why is not provision made in the Bill for the representation of the consumers ? Prices have been going up, despite the control we have been exercising. There is a screw loose somewhere. We have a right to demand an explanation of the mystery. We should insist that the interests of the consumer be protected. No one is against those concerned in business securing fair returns ; but we want to prevent profiteering, which is rampant. Nothing is being done. This measure seeks to perpetuate what has been carried on for the past two or three years. I want to see the people getting a fair deal.

I am not much concerned about the Shipping Board, but I believe we would be no worse off if the Board were disbanded to-morrow.

Mr McWilliams:

-A jolly sight better off.

Mr CHARLTON:

– Probably ! The Board is composed of men directly concerned in shipping. While we have taken over their ships and are paying them rental for their vessels, they have been practically permitted to run the boats to their own satisfaction. Wherever they have been concerned in a particular commodity they have not been hindered in using their craft to carry that commodity to their own choice of markets, to the exclusion of other people. Take the carriage of coal, for instance. I cannot complain with regard to my own district, for the miners hate been kept going fairly constantly. But the honorable member for Newcastle (Mr. Watkins) cannot say the same, unfortunately. The shipping managers have worked their own favoured propositions, and have carried coal in their ships quite independently of Commonwealth control; but a fair deal has not been given other districts.

I am notsatisfied with the Wool Board, either. I am not assured that it has been in the best interests of the country. We have seen wool taken past Newcastle 100 miles and more to Sydney for appraisement. The biggest boats visiting Australia put into Newcastle for loading. We can load the biggest wool-carrying ships at that port. Yet all the wool from the north goes past Newcastle for appraisement in Sydney.

Mr Pigott:

– It is a question of build ing sheds.

Mr CHARLTON:

– Sheds which could have been made thoroughly suitable, and could have held all the wool, have been lying empty in Newcastle.

Mr Pigott:

– The sheds had to be specially built. There must be a particular light.

Mr CHARLTON:

– There have been empty sheds at Newcastle during the war. That fact has been brought by the Newcastle Chamber of Commerce under the notice of the Board and of the Government; and the reply has been that the wool could not be appraised at Newcastle. Evidently it was better business to drag the wool 103 miles past that port rather than pay the expense of sending an appraiser from Sydney to Newcastle, to do the work there. These things are very unsatisfactory, and should be remedied.

Mr Livingston:

– There is not much wrong with the Wool Board. .

Mr CHARLTON:

– Selfishness is a trait of human nature, and it is because every one is looking after his own particular interests that the general public suffer. These Boards are all right, in the opinion of those directly interested in the commodities with which they deal, but what is necessary is that they should have the confidence of the general public.

Mr Pigott:

– The people of Australia are interested in the wool business to the extent of only 3 per cent. of the wool clip, which covers the local consumption.

Mr CHARLTON:

-I agreethat that isa very small percentage, but that 3 per cent. of the wool clip is essential to the people in Australia. From it we manufacture our woollen goods. If we have an over-supply of wool,is it to be argued that, because we require only 3 per cent. of the clip for local consumption, we should pay for that 3 per cent. a price on a parity with the price secured for the 97per cent. which is sent abroad?

Mr Pigott:

– We are not paying on a parity with the London price.

Mr.CHARLTON. - I heard the honorable member for Grampians (Mr. Jowett) explain that there was a reduction on the London price; but the question is, whether that reduction is sufficient.

Mr Pigott:

– The price is 40 or 50 per cent. higher on theother side.

Mr CHARLTON:

– Is the honorable member going to argue that, while before the war wool was 8½d. per lb., and to-day it is1s. 3½d. per lb., or over-

Mr Jowett:

– The honorable member’s figures are not correct.

Mr CHARLTON:

– Perhaps the honorable member will tell me what are the correct figures.

Mr Jowett:

– It is a question of an increase of 55 per cent.

Mr CHARLTON:

– That will do me. Is the honorable member going to contend that in Australia, where we produce all this wool, our people, who must have woollen clothing, should be charged 55 per cent. more for wool to-day than before the war, merely because our woolgrowers can get that price for it in countries abroad, where they grow no wool? Such an argument would be fallacious, and, if carried out with respect to every commodity, where wouldthe cost of living soar to?

Mr Jowett:

– That is not the cause of the increased cost of living.

Mr.CHARLTON.- I heard the honorable member say the other night that it is not; but I say that it is a factor in determining the cost of woollen goods.

Mr Jowett:

– An infinitesimal factor.

Mr CHARLTON:

– I should say that itplays a very large part. I have used wool as an example, and some honorable members suggest that it is a bad example ; but my argument applies to the prices of all commodities. It is not a fair thing to say that, because we can get 100 per cent. more for a certain commodity overseas, we should charge the people in Australia about the same price for it. How are our people going to live, if we do that?

Mr Fenton:

– We are not doing that in connexion with wheat.

Mr CHARLTON:

-That is so. How are we to meet the conditions confronting us, andwhichare growing more difficult day by day, in regard to the needs of the community and the inability of the people to purchasewhat theyrequire from their earnings?

Mr Jowett:

– Destroy the Combines.

Mr CHARLTON:

– Exactly.Let me say that I was very pleased to hear the honorable member say the other night that he is prepared to do his part in destroying the Combines; but he will be found supporting the measure now before the House.

Mr Jowett:

– Yes.

Mr CHARLTON:

– I venture to say that every honorable member opposite will support it. What does it do to destroy the Combines? So far from destroying them, it will give them another lease of life. We desire that these arrangements should come toan end within a certain time after the war; but this Bill proposes to extend them. With the experience of the operations of these Boards during the last five years, we have learned their defects. If it is necessary, because of certain contracts with people abroad, to extend the operation of these powers, what isto prevent us remedying the defectswhich have been discovered? This Bill regulates the prices of commodities to the people in Australia, where there are no contracts in existence at all; and it should receive the very careful examination of honorable members before it is passed.

Mr McWilliams:

– Does the honorable member not think that the public should be represented on these Boards?

Mr CHARLTON:

– I have said so over and over again. It is a one-sided business to provide that only those directly concerned in a particular commodity shall be represented on the Board dealing with it. If honorable members wish to restore public confidence in these matters, they will see that the public have representation on these Boards. If we do not do so, the public will say, “Who are running these Boards that fix the prices that we have to pay for bread, sugar, butter, and other things? They are people who are directly interested in those commodities.” I have said that the price of dairy products is not too high ; but the very fact that there is no representation of the public on these Boards creates suspicion in the public mind. If the public were represented, everything could be investigated, and the true position made clear.

Mr Pigott:

– Theyare too much represented on the Wheat Board.

Mr Fenton:

– Who are?

Mr Pigott:

– Those outside the industry.

Mr CHARLTON:

– During the last sittings of this House I went through the list of these Boards. There is a very large number of them, and if honorable members will examine them they will find that they are all composed of interested persons. That is what the “ public are crying out against. If we are going to regulate the prices of commodities, the public demand a voice in the business. It is only human nature that if men personally interested in a particular article are appointed to the Board regulating the price of that article they will get as much for it as they can. If a man is given the opportunity to exploit the public in any way, he will avail himself of it. The public should be represented on these Boards, to prevent that sort of thing.

Mr Jowett:

– The Government are represented.

Mr CHARLTON:

– The Government are advised by the Boards. The honorable member may be a member of a Ministry at some time; and, if he is, he will find that he will be guided upon many matters by reports submitted to him by others from time to time. Everyone knows the great amount of work which the Acting Prime Minister (Mr. Watt) has to perform, and we know that he cannot possibly go into all matters with which he has to deal.

Mr Jowett:

– The Government have a direct representative on every Board.

Mr Riley:

– They have not on the Wool Board.

Mr CHARLTON:

– I concede the statement of the honorable member ‘for Grampians (Mr. Jowett), that the Government are represented on every Board ; but that is no satisfaction to the general public, who are not represented on them.

Mr Jowett:

– I admit that.

Mr CHARLTON:

– There is always a danger where there is only one representative of the Government on a Board that the others may do something which will not be in the best interests of the country.

Mr Jowett:

– It is assumed that the Government represents the consumer.

Mr CHARLTON:

– If a man is a member of a Board, and the majority of the members of that Board differ from Lim on a particular matter, he will, ordinarily, accept the decision of his colleagues. He may think that it is entirely wrong, but he will not come out and stand on his own and make a fuss about it. The great majority of the persons who compose these Boards are interested in the commodities with which they deal, and they fix the prices in their own interests. I ask the Acting AttorneyGeneral (Mr. Groom) to say that something will be done to give the public a say in these matters, by securing their representation on these Boards.

If the Minister has the power he thinks he has, though I doubt it, there is no reason, why he should not bring other commodities under the Bill; there is no reason, for instance, why leather should not be included, and thus bring about a reduction in the price of boots, instead of the constant inflation we have experienced. This is a matter entirely in our own hands; and I ask the Minister to consider what I have said with a view of doing something which will give a little meed of satisfaction to .the general public. Unless something is done in regard to the fixing of prices in the near future, and thus some relief given in connexion with the cost of living, I see nothing but trouble ahead. People cannot be kept in submission all the time. It redounds to the credit of the people of this com- :munity .that, although they were hard pressed during the -war, .and had to go short of many things, they felt that a patriotic duty devolved on them to make sacrifices. Many, owing to their age, were not able to go to the Front, but they made what sacrifices lay within their power. Now, however, they cannot continue to make those sacrifices; their stocks of clothing have worn out, and their purchasing power is not sufficient to secure more; and they anticipate that, now Peace has been signed, some effort will be made to quickly return to normal conditions. As I say, unless some relief is afforded, I see nothing before us but chaos, leading we know not where. I am one who believes, and always have believed, that whatever we do should be done in a constitutional way, because with adult suffrage all the power is in our hands.. People are constantly being told that Parliament is what they make it, and they look to us to protect their interests, and, now that there is no necessity for further sacrifices, to (bring about a state of society in which they can live in decent comfort.

Mr BOYD:
Henty

– I welcome this Bill, not, perhaps, for reasons advanced by some honorable, members, but for the. reason that it, at least, foreshadows the termination of Government functions under the War Precautions Act. I was one who urged as strongly as possible that, when the war ceased, the unconstitutional method of Government control under this Act should cease with it. Although we were unable when we last met, at the end of 1918, to get our own way in the matter, we got a promise from the Government that the operation of this Act would be curtailed as far as possible, and at the earliest possible moment; and this Bill, T take it, is the fulfilment of that promise. Whether it will prove of any value lies in the wom!b of the future. A certificate has been given by some very eminent legal gentlemen regarding the constitutionality of the Bill, and, naturally, a layman ought to hold his breath ‘before expressing an opinion adverse to theirs. But what was submitted to those gentlemen for decision?

Mr Atkinson:

– The text of this Bill.

Mr BOYD:

– Does the honorable member know exactly what was submitted, and the manner in which it was submitted ?

Mr Atkinson:

– I am. going on the Minister’s own statement.

Mr BOYD:

– If we look very closely at the certificate, it seems, to me at any rate, to leave as much ambiguity as a lawyer would leave if he wanted to secure a “way out.” This is theopinion expressed by the legal gentlemen referred to-

We have carefully considered this Bill, and are of opinion that it is within the competence of the Commonwealth Parliament.

Although I am not a lawyer, I could have told the Government that, because the Bill is simply a continuation of functions under theWar Precautions Act, which is still in force. Until that Act ceases to operate, it is quite clear that a Bill of this kind is within the competence of Parliament.

Mr Atkinson:

– The certificate does not say that, but that Parliament is competent to pass the Bill up to 1920.

Mr BOYD:

– I cannot see that it does. The honorable member seems to know more about the Bill than the Minister.

Mr Atkinson:

– I am going on what the honorable member read just now. The honorable member says that the certificate isambiguous, but I think it is perfectly clear.

Mr BOYD:

– The honorable member must be too excited to bring his cooler judgment to bear.

Mr Groom:

– The Bill, as introduced into the House,was submitted to the Legal Committee for their opinion, and the members have certified that it is quite competent for this Parliament to pass it as introduced.

Mr BOYD:

– Although, as I say, I am not a lawyer, I could have told the Minister, without a lot of legal jargon, that under the War Precautions Act, which has not ceased to operate, the Government have power to carry out these functions. I am not one who submits his judgment to lawyers, because I know that any opinion we want can be got from a lawyer.

Mr West:

– It is only a matter of payment.

Mr BOYD:

-No, it is not.

Mr West:

– What else is it?

Mr BOYD:

– There are a number of other considerations. We may go to the most eminent lawyer, who will advise us to take our case to the Supreme Court, but we find the decision against us. The lawyer, of course, is of opinion that the

Supreme Court is wrong, and if we have plenty of money we take his advice and appeal to the Full Court, which decides in our favour. Then our opponents take the case to the High Court, which reverses the judgment of the Supreme Court. Where are we then? This isno fanciful picture, for it represents a frequent experience. Such a case may be taken to the Privy Council, which reverses the decision of the Court below. In one case, a decision by a Police Magistrate was carried through the Courts right up to the Privy Council, which in the end decided that the Police Magistrate was right; so it can be seen how much reliance can be placed on the opinions of lawyers. I shall not mention names, because that might lead to the identification of the party concerned, but there was a case in which we had occasion to obtain a legal opinion on a certain matter. We obtained that opinion from a very prominent lawyer. Later on it was found that our opponents had secured from the same gentleman an opinion contrary to that which he had given us. When attention was drawn to this fact the solicitor withdrew the opinion which had been submitted to us in order to allow the other opinion of the barrister to stand.

Mr Brennan:

– The honorable member has not too high an opinion of the profession !

Mr BOYD:

– I have not. So far as brains are concerned, I suppose that it contains some very able men-

Mr Brennan:

– But law is a very inexact science.

Mr BOYD:

– And the lawyers are much more inexact than is the science. The Acting Attorney-General (Mr. Groom) has obtained from this Legal Committee a certificate that Parliament is competent to pass this Bill. So long as the War Precautions Act is operative, certainly it is competent to pass it. But when that Act ceases to operate, what assurance have we that this measure, if placed upon our statute-book, will be of any value whatever?

Mr Groom:

– That is their opinion.

Mr BOYD:

– But until their opinion has been tested by the Courts it is not worth anything.While the certificate of these legal gentlemen may be a perfectly accurate one so far as the passing of this Bill is concerned, it contains nothing to warrant us in believing that when the War Precautions Act ceases to operate it will possess any value whatever.

Mr Groom:

– The Committee mean that if. we pass the Bill it will stand as a valid law.

Mr BOYD:

– Their certificate does not say anything of the kind, and Hansard does not record that the Acting AttorneyGeneral made any such statement.

Mr Groom:

– The certificate says it is within the competence of this Parliament to pass the Bill.

Mr BOYD:

– But it does not say that when it has been passed the Bill will be valid. The opinion of these gentlemen, therefore, can have no value until the matter has been determined by the Courts.

Mr Groom:

– The members of the Committee can only give their opinion.

Mr BOYD:

– And I am giving mine. I know that the Acting Attorney-General will not value my opinion half as much as he values theirs.

Mr Groom:

– I put just as much value upon the honorable member’s opinion as it is worth.

Mr BOYD:

– The honorable gentleman puts just as much value upon my opinion as he is capable of judging it to be worth, which is a very different proposition.

The second paragraph of the certificate given by these legal men, and upon which so much stress has been laid, reads -

We have carefully considered this Bill, and are of opinion that it is within the competence of the Commonwealth Parliament, subject, as regards Part IV. (Sugar), to the proviso that the Bill becomes law before the termination of the war.

At a later stage they define “ termination of the war “ as the “ exchange of ratifications.” Does not that circumstance show that in their judgment, if we pass this Bill after the “ exchange of ratifications,” it will not be legal so far as sugar is concerned? I understand that the Italian and French Parliaments are the only Parliaments which are now required to ratify the Peace Treaty. If to-morrow we learned that they have already done this, clearly a doubt would exist in the minds of Messrs. Knox and Hemsley, two of the Sydney members of the Committee who have given their opinion on the question of the constitutionality of this Bill, so far as sugar is concerned. If the measure would not be legal in the case of sugar, how could it be legal in the case of other commodities? If we desire to get this matter in proper perspective, we must view it from the stand-point of the conditions which existed prior to the war. If we had no power to deal with these matters then, I venture to say that we shall have no power to deal with them after the war. If the validity of the Bill be contested before the Court it is quite possible that it will be held to be ultra vires of our Constitution. If that result were achieved many matters would be materially complicated. But quite apart from sugar, other commodities which the Government desire to bring within the scope of this measure would affect a number of producers, who will probably realize higher prices for their products under Government control than they could otherwise do. That being the case, it is more than unlikely that a test case would be put up. On the other hand, I am assured that the jam manufacturers of the Commonwealth intend to contest the Commonwealth power in regard to fixing the price of sugar.

Mr Groom:

– What are they going to gain from action of that kind?

Mr BOYD:

– I do not know. But even while the Government are controlling the price of sugar under the War Precautions Act, the Minister for Trade and Customs (Mr. Greene) himself admits that in New Zealand sugar is being sold cheaper than it is in Australia. I ask leave to continue my remarks.

Leave granted; debate adjourned.

page 10694

ADJOURNMENT

Peace Celebrations : Sittings of the House - Hospital Ship “Karoola”: Landing of Invalids - Case of Paul Freeman - Taxation of Patriotic Entertainments.

Motion (by Mr. Watt) proposed -

That the House do now adjourn.

Mr TUDOR:
Yarra

.- I should be glad if the Acting Prime Minister (Mr. Watt) would state, for the con venience of honorable members generally, the intentions of the Government with regard to the sittings of the House next week in view of the fact that Peace Celebrations in the case of some of our schools will commence on Friday next. An announcement at this stage would be of value to those Inter-State representatives who propose to take part in the Peace Celebrations in their respective States.

Mr HIGGS:
Capricornia

.- I have been asked by the relatives of returning invalid soldiers to put this brief statement before the House -

The hospital ship Karoola moored at Woolloomooloo wharf at 0.30 a.m. on Saturday, 28th June. On board were twenty-three eot cases, some very bad indeed. Breakfast was served while in the stream at 7.30 a.m. Shortly after the vessel was moored, eight or ten’ of the invalids were taken on deck, most of the invalids dressed in pyjamas only, yet the weather was cold, a sharp wind- blowing. Shortly after 11 a.m., cot cases were removed to the wharf, where they lay in the cold without sufficient covering. The Karoola then pulled out to the stream. Through an insufficiency of motor ambulances, it was 3 p.m. before the last of the invalids arrived at Randwick Hospital. The invalids had no food or refreshments of any kind from 7.30 a.m. until 3 p.m., while the exposure to cold through want of sufficient clothing resulted in some of the invalids contracting severe colds. Notwithstanding this, we read in the evening newspapers that the Governor-General met the hospital ship, addressed words of welcome to the returned men, that a plentiful supply of cars were in waiting, and that everything went without a hitch.

Mr CONSIDINE:
Barrier

.- In view of the answers given by the Acting Prime Minister to questions I have asked with reference to Paul Freeman, and the refusal of the Government, either, to release him on bail or to submit him to trial, I desire to ask the honorable gentleman what course of action the Government intend to adopt with regard to the man.- When I brought the case of Paul Freeman before the authorities, I also drew attention to the case of a man named Abraham Marks, who was sentenced to six months’ imprisonment in the New South Wales penitentiary, but was kept in gaol for seventeen months, and was deported, I gather, from the reply of the Defence Department, about the time that Freeman was sent away. I should like to know whether the Government intend to keep Paul Freeman in gaol?

Mr HECTOR LAMOND:
Illawarra

. —I desire to direct the attention of the Treasurer (Mr. Watt) to certain phases of the administration of the entertainments tax in New South Wales. In connexion with repatriation work, and the welcoming home of our returned soldiers, we have, in many centres, associations and societies which, by means of concerts and other entertainments, raise funds to enable the returning men to be entertained. The officer administering the entertainments tax holds, that such entertainments are subject to the (tax if the expenses of conducting them amount to 50 per cent, of the gross proceeds. As the number of returning men increases, with a consequent increase in the “ welcome home “ functions, more and more difficulty is being experienced in securing a full attendance at these gatherings. A charge is -made for admission merely to recoup the societies the expense incurred. They very often find nowadays that, instead of having a surplus, they have a deficit, and the taxing officer thereupon demands that the tax shall be paid on admission tickets. This is a rather serious matter for the people concerned, many of whom are not in affluent circumstances, and have to provide the tax out of their own pockets. It seems to me that if the officer were to “ turn a blind eye “ on such cases, he would do more good to the community than he does by taking a strictly technical view of the wording of the Act.

In another case, to which I shall refer in detail later on, the power of the Department has been used in a most extraordinary way because of the inexperience of the man concerned. This man, who is a miner, failed to secure the authority which he could have secured from the Department, exempting from the provisions of the Entertainments Tax Act the patriotic entertainment for which he was responsible. Notwithstanding that his mistake was due to inexperience, the Department put him to the expense of a trial, sent counsel to the town where the trial took place, and compelled him to pay the costs of the prosecution. And all this because of his failure to pay the tax on tickets of admission to a patriotic entertainment which was conductedby him without any object of personal gain. So far as I can see, there was not the slightest justification for the action of the Department, which refuses to grant any redress. I hope the Treasurer will look into these cases, and see whether the strict letter of the law should be enforced in respect of patriotic and charitable entertainments that are not a source of profit, but, on the contrary, an actual loss to the promoters.

Mr WATT:
Acting Prime Minister and Treasurer · Balaclava · NAT

– The honorable member for Illawarra (Mr. Lamond) knows, as I do, that the cases that worry honorable members most, and are often the most embarrassing to Ministers, are frequently those of which the. latter have no personal knowledge, but in respect of which the action complained of has been taken by officials. I am not able to say whether the cases cited by the honorable member are within or outside the Act, but my own view is that the law was never intended to burden gatherings of the kind described by him. I shall take an early opportunity of ascertaining exactly the purport of the law with respect to such entertainments, and, should it be necessary, in the judgment of the Government, to amend that law, 1 shall not hesitate to ask Parliament to alter it.

The honorable; member for Barrier (Mr. Considine) has referred to the case, of Paul Freeman. I say, with great respect to the honorable member, that that matter has been made the subject of a political agitation in another State, and that, in connexion with it, a good deal of public excitement has been caused, largely, so far as the Government is aware, by a misrepresentation of the facts. In these circumstances, I am not prepared to answer any further questions, without notice, in regard to the case. The honorable member will recognise the necessity for, and the wisdom of, that course. ‘

I was pained to hear the remarks made by the honorable member for Capricornia (Mr. Higgs) regarding the arrival and treatment of invalid soldiers on the Karoola at Woolloomooloo Bay last month. I assume that the ‘honorable member knows the source of the information.

Mr Higgs:

– I believe it to be true, but cannot vouch for it.

Mr WATT:

– Although the honorable member does not vouch for it, such a statement demands, and will receive, the immediate investigation of the Acting Minister for Defence (Senator Russell). After our experience in dealing with invalid cases, there is not the slightestjustification for blundering of the kind.

Mr McDonald:

– If the complaint is found to be correct, will any one be punished ?

Mr WATT:

– The honorable member knows how difficult it is in some cases to allocate the responsibility.

Mr McDonald:

– But if the responsibility is allocated in this case, will any one be punished ?

Mr WATT:

– If it is allocated, then punishment should follow the blunder. I do not love punishment, but if the men who take responsibility for dealing with cases of this, kind are unable to do the job, they should relinquish it. If they undertake the work, they should deal with it in the spirit in which the Parliament hoped and intended that it should be carried out.

On Wednesday next, either one or both of the Bills relating to the War Precautions Regulations will be advanced to the stage which the Commercial Activities Bill has reached. We shall then go on with the Commercial Activities Bill until it is passed. On Wednesday we shall meet at the usual hour and sit in the afternoon and evening. If it will suit the convenience of honorable members, we shall meet on Thursday at 11 o’clock in the morning, and if we make reasonable progress, Inter-State members who desire to do so may catch the Inter-State expresses. This will enable them to reach their respective States in order to take part in the Peace celebrations. If it can be arranged with the concurrence of honorable members on both sides, I hope it will be possible to have a similar sitting on Friday. However, we can settle that point on Wednesday next.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

House adjourned at 4.12 p.m.

Cite as: Australia, House of Representatives, Debates, 11 July 1919, viewed 22 October 2017, <http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1919/19190711_reps_7_88/>.

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